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Traditional singers altering songs?
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:58 AM My friend and I both do "Maid of Cabra West", but hers is slightly different. She said she got it from her brother ("a fine singer") whose version is, again, slightly different. I looked up the print version in a book either by or including Frank Harte, and we are all "wrong". Same with O'Sullivan's John. Mainly, most recorded versions alter the lyrics to avoid using the word "ass". |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Mr Red Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:04 AM Tam Kearney (Fiddlers Green FC Toronto) told the story told to him by Ewan McColl how he heard a Canadian lumberjack singing a McColl song and swore it was taught to him by his Gran. The timespan was only a few years, but one can speculate it was emminently plausable. The story goes on that Ewan requested more "songs from Gran" and elecited "Please Release me Let me Go". Which would date the story to late 60's early 70's. McColl was looking for "Trad songs" Which demonstrates what has been said many times above. Close communities, in making their own entertainment, know little of the wider context and to a young boy/adolescent the provenance is far less important than the content. And memory being what it is ............. Surely we are skirting Mondegreen territory here. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:19 AM >> 'Tradpiper' and 'Romany Man' would be a breath of fresh air if there wasn't the sense of them too being regarded as 'other. ('Your people'??) << I'm not sure who it was that actually used the phrase "your people", but what *I* said was "your community", which I still don't think is particularly controversial or offensive. Although my Gran and my Mum and Dad all sang songs for fun, much of my knowledge of the songs I sing for a living is from books and recordings. That makes me all the more interested to hear what tradpiper and romany man, who have a different relationship with the songs they know and love, have to say in this discussion. "A 'folk' bubble" is precisely what the Mudcat forum is, but the whole point of starting this thread was to bring in some news from outside the bubble, and that - I am happy to say - is just what's happened. I suppose it was too much to hope that this could be achieved without a bit of axe-grinding along the way. Oh, and Steve Gardham got it exactly right about the distinction between the singer and the scholar's view of the song, so let's not get all stewed up yet again about value judgements - that isn't what this thread is about. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,Peace Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM Ain't too many songs writ in stone. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:20 PM These are Gordian knots you-all are trying to untie! I'll just tack on a tiny example of how songs change: Mom and I were singing a little thing she liked when she was being courted by her future husband, my Dad. She sang it around the house until HER Mom declared she was goin to "stop her mouth with a dishrag!" Mom laughed and then we sang together the first verse: Somebody's tall and handsome Somebody's fond and true; Somebody's hair is very dark- Somebody's eyes are too. "Hey wait a minute- that's supposed to be, 'eyes are blue'", I hollered. Mom's little smile, then, " Well 'twas- I changed it!" |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:07 PM I don't disagree with you over MacColl. As far as I know when it came to the Scots songs he never claimed any particular academic understanding or authenticity and therefore none of us have the right to claim that for him. However with the travellers songs in 'Travellers Songs from England and Scotland', as far as I can see the scholarship of Ewan and Peggy and authenticity are beyond reproach. As for his parents' songs I'm certain they sang them and he also augmented them with poet's licence. Nothing wrong with that, but what a pity he did not carry out a scholarly study/publishing of these songs as well! |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:36 PM Steve: As you suggest, there is nothing whatever 'wrong' with singers altering songs to suit themselves (and the times). The problems arise when they make academic claims on what they have created. I believe Bert Lloyd did this a lot, hence the somewhat confused legacy he left behind. On the other hand, I don't think MacColl did this to any great extent, though he was somewhat vague at times regarding his sources. I confess I used to suspect his claims to his family repertoire but after conversations I had with his mother and with some of his contemporaries in Manchester, working-class historian Eddie Frow for instance, I came to the opinion that he never sought to mislead anybody; what he did do was to reconstruct some of the songs he heard at home. This was confirmed for me by D.G. Bridson's description in his book 'Prospero and Ariel, of the 'discovering' of MacColl in Manchester in 1931. "MacColl had been out busking for pennies by the Manchester theatres and cinemas. The songs he sang were unusual, Scots songs, Gaelic songs he had learnt from his mother, border ballads and folk-songs. One night while queuing up for the three-and-sixpennies, Kenneth Adam had heard him singing outside the Manchester Paramount. He was suitably impressed. Not only did he give MacColl a handout; he also advised him to go and audition for Archie Harding at the BBC studios in Manchester's Piccadilly." After all, if Traveller John Reilly could give us 'The Maid and The Palmer', 'Lord Baker', 'Lord Gregory' (Lord Googly) and a dozen or so other ballads, there's no reason to doubt MacColl's claims. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,Jon Dudley Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:49 AM All fascinating stuff. Words get added (and subtracted) over the passage of time. Mention of Gordon Hall, (still to my mind one of the real 'greats') absolutely validates Vic's memories; not only of Gordon's diligence in researching both source and background of a song but also sometimes of building the original text into something far larger, grander and more suited to his love of the 'extended ballad'. This occasionally utilised his own composition in a song like 'The Farmers Toast' to great comic effect, and by extensive research of sources and recordings in the case of a song like 'Babes in the Wood'. As for the use of 'relope' in the Copper's 'Sportsmen Arouse'...it's funny how you sing a song for aeons and never question the lyric...one evening a few years ago we came to wondering what on earth it could mean...was it a hunting cry like 'Tally Ho!'...good old Chambers came to the rescue and we discovered that it was a corruption of 'elope', to run away...made perfect sense! |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:56 PM Actually there are a number of different groups and sub groups of travellers, and in many cases they don't mix hardly at all. All to often there is prejudice in different societies. Its a fact, like it or not. Its just one of those things. We can all do our bit to cross over cultural boundaries and promote peace and understanding. Steve Gardham make a very valid point in his search for historical accuracy. That being IMO, that we are all multi faceted personalities and one particular label, be it traveller, historian, researcher, communist fascist, simply can not encompass the full human being. We all have taken different routes and are on different journeys, yet today we are here[ figuratively speaking] discussing various aspects of traditional song, from our own viewpoints. My interjection perhaps does not have any relevance to Steve's interests as a researcher, I can only give my view from personal experiance, I raised the matter of a couple of songs I am interested in. In the case of Sullivan John, Which is , to me,firmly within the tradition, and the two verses which differ , vs 2. Now I would be very interested in the provenance of those 2 verses, and if one is original and one an adoption. and which is which... Perhaps it is a sub plot in this thread? Perhaps it really is inappropriate in so far as the historians/researcher's are focused on more specific times, places and people. Im fine with that. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Tradsinger Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM Steve, I absolutely agree with you. From the point of view of a person hearing and enjoying a song, it matters little where it came form but when as a researcher you are trying to understand the oral/folk tradition, it is important to know exactly how the singer came by the song and what changes, consciously or unconsciously he or she has made to the song. So it's an academic thing. Nothing wrong with that so long as it doesn't lapse into pedantry or spoil the enjoyment of others. This leaves open the question of WHY people like and learn certain songs and this is a complex question for another thread. Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM There has been a lot of wise words already expressed on this thread and I empathise with all of them. BUT as a singer, collector, writer, editor, researcher I have a split personality. When I am wearing my singer's hat I agree with every opinion expressed here. Like everyone else I stamp my own personality on the songs I sing, in many ways. However when I'm wearing my researcher's hat I need to know if a song has or has not been deliberately fabricated/rewritten/collated by someone like Bert Lloyd or Ewan MacColl or Thomas Percy or Walter Scott or Robert Jamieson or Peter Buchan or Sabine Baring Gould, or even Jeannie Robertson or Duncan Williamson. There are other value judgments that are valid other than whether it is a good song or not. Some people might not like this fact and they may not understand it, but they are entitled to their opinions. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 26 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM "'Tradpiper' and 'Romany Man' would be a breath of fresh air if there wasn't the sense of them too being regarded as 'other. ('Your people'??)" I suspect, 'voxtrad' that you're one of those people (whoops - I've used the 'p' word again!) who is hypersensitive to 'heresy' in others. The Travellers/Gypsies/Romanies (whichever is the politically correct term)are a distinct group within society and, hence, are 'a people' - and, indisputability, just 'people' (without the indefinite article) as well. As it happens I have no quarrel with them, believe absolutely that they have a right to exist and to fulfil their own destiny and deplore the prejudice all too often displayed against them. 'tradpiper' and 'romany man' have made no secret of the fact that they are members of the travelling community and I welcome their contributions to this debate. I happen to be very interested in hearing what they have to say. Now I'll shut up, let them and others get on with it, and look forward to the day when we can all embrace and celebrate difference without having to explain and/or justify ourselves. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Stringsinger Date: 26 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM Many song collectors in their books use collated texts. Lomax did this. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Date: 26 Sep 08 - 03:13 PM There may be an 'us and them' thing, but its from both sides if there is.None the less, we are all people. We come from all walks of life and here we can communicate freely. 'Your people,' that's OK.Its only natural. All people have 'us and them.' It's human nature. No point in denying reality. We simply need to work with what's given rather than base our view on illusions. We have ' my family'[group] and 'your family'[group] we are all part of a larger human family.... Of course who is considered to be a part of the family depends on many, many things. I too have no wish to cover old ground. Brian has clearly stated the motivation behind his thread, and to an extent how we should view what is 'traditional' in the context of this discussion. That said, I learnt my songs within my community, from friends and family., but not blood relatives.[ None of my birth family are musicians or singers.] To be honest I had never even heard of a folk revival, apart from a few vague mentions on the internet in the last few years. Perhaps I am part of it? but if so then Capn's point is very valid.That there is no dividing line between the revival and the tradition. Its just an artificial label. we are all just singers. As far as my own views go I am pretty clear as to how I define traditional music. It has mostly too do with the melody and feeling. not the lyrics. for whatever language its sung in, it is the musical rather than lyrical aspects that I would mainly use as my basis for definition. I have never used the term folk music. Thats not to say that as a singer I have no interest in the words, to the contrary, I love a good song, the twist and turns, the stories, the tricks and all. I would also use the style of presentation as criteria, a trad song can be sung in a very untraditional way and vice versa. To me its all fluid, yet Its also clearly defined. It is, or it isn't. Just as with friends, there is a saying' "Your friends will know you better in the first minute you meet than your acquaintances will know you in a thousand years'' |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Art Thieme Date: 26 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM Sorry. I'm back. I figured you wanted American morphings of songs too. But, no. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,voxtrad Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM What's a 'traditional singer'? This discussion is happening in a 'folk' bubble. 'Tradpiper' and 'Romany Man' would be a breath of fresh air if there wasn't the sense of them too being regarded as 'other. ('Your people'??) They are both dead right about the singing of songs though. Question is, if there had been no 'folk revival' would this debate take place? Essentially every family sang (sings) and swopped songs, Christmas was a special time for this. I learned songs from my grandparents and other relatives at many family gatherings – trouble is, they aren't 'folk' songs of the 'approved' type. They were songs from shows, opera and music-hall. So, when you've edited my life and discarded those of my family's songs that aren't about shepherds, knights and such, it must mean I'm not traditional? Alter songs? You betcha! Even write them if it suits! A good song will stand up and a bad song will die and that alone, in my opinion, is the 'tradition'. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: dick greenhaus Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM When a singer changes a song, the new version represents the singer's tradition, which may be considerably different from the tradition of the source. Give a listen, say, to Pete Seeger's versions of many gospel and Southern Appalachian tunes; the've become more regularized and rendered much more suitable for performance and large group singing. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:09 AM tradpiper: I instigated this discussion because of a previous thread ('Bertsongs') in which we discussed deliberate alterations to traditional material by A. L. Lloyd, who was one of the chief instigators (along with Ewan MacColl) of the 1960s folk revival, and who passed his (improved) material along to many prominent artists of the day - to the extent that his versions often became definitive. In the course of that discussion, various contributors asked: "What's so wrong with that, singers have always done it." While I agreed intuitively that singers probably had 'always done it', I was interested to learn what evidence there might be. I really don't want to get into another argument here about what constitutes "traditional", but in my original question I was thinking about singers who learned songs through their family or community, as opposed to learning them in the context of the folk revival. In the revival we've always taken a degree of meddling as the norm (although the extent of Bert Lloyd's interventions are only now becoming apparent), but in my early days of involvement with traditional song I was given the impression that all those wonderful song variants you find in the published collections and field recordings somehow occurred by accident - by mishearing or mis-remembering on the part of "naive" or "uneducated" singers. I never really bought that, but it's taken me until now to try and find out what actually happened. It's been very interesting to hear what people like Jim Carroll and Tradsinger, themselves song collectors, have to say on the matter, likewise the contributions from someone like yourself who has learned songs in your community. I hope that answers your question adequately. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: romany man Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM We can go into all the rights and wrongs of trad, but all statements are that of the individual, songs that tradpiper, sings or learns, from the same type of source as me , cpould well be totally different either in content or musical accompaniment(sorry cant spell it) dependant on who is passing the song on and from what area, sadly at our place it seems im now the last one interested in the old ways an the old songs, its a sad thing to say but none of us is getting younger, the younger generation are rarely interested in the songs or the music or listening to stories that have been past down, as far as i am concerned i dont care who wrote it just how it sounds and the words the rights and wrongs can go whistle, if you are beating yourself up about timing speed right words or its only folk if you sing through your nose, well what can i say, romany traveller songs change from person to person, have bits added or taken out, the tunes change, so if you in kent the broomdasher song sounds one way but when i heard it at stow it was totally different, whos right kent or stow, my point is does it matter. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:05 AM Thanks Brian for your gracious welcome, and for directing me to a search of the interesting, informative and amusing discussions in the archives... I see what you mean.LOL So, seeing as how what is traditional depends on the context of the discussion or community , might it be an idea for, yourself in this case, the instigator of the discussion, to define 'tradition, or traditional singers'? that way you are setting the boundaries, so to speak. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Bernard Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:43 AM Yes - there is no 'right' or 'wrong', but sometimes 'appropriate' or 'inappropriate' may be... erm... appropriate ...! A good example is the Coppers' use of their own made up word 'relope'! |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: MaineDog Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM I've always been suspicious of people who bring their digital recording devices to sessions and sing-alongs, and then express worry about whether tunes are being "played right". If "musical correctness" is important to you, maybe you should go classical music and leave the folk process alone. MD |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Bernard Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:59 AM Quite so. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:27 AM I have always thought that most traditional singers were, and are, enthusiasts - just like us 'non-traditional', revivalist singers. They went wherever their enthusiasm and artistic sensibility took them. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Bernard Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:18 AM Just as a matter of interest, the sleeve notes to 'The World of Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger', dating back to 1970 on the Argo label, refer to the song 'Freeborn Man' (sic - not titled 'The Travelling People' at that time!) as having been 'assimilated into the tradition'... We've had arguments about what constitutes 'traditional' so often in the past, but the fact remains that it is still a matter of opinion...!! Maybe a new term should be coined... 'contemporary traditional'?! Yes, I'm being silly, I know! |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:56 AM Thank you, Jim, for the usual interesting contributions. For what it's worth (as someone who *is* interested in the provenance of songs), I think tradpiper is making a very good point about the tradition in his (or her?) traveller community, although this is the kind of topic that's been discussed here before at length and has a tendency to end in tears or thrown teddies (go and search under 'What is folk?', 'What is traditional?' etc. etc.). As to "where do travellers' songs fit in?", I'd say this field is now (belatedly?) recognised as one of the most vital areas in traditional song. I hope we're going to hear more from tradpiper in this forum. Tradsinger also made a good point further up the thread: "Traditional or source singers are human beings like us. They are not born with a repertoire in their heads. They hear songs, they like songs, they learn and sing songs. They forget bits and embellish bits. They get their songs from oral tradition, books, recordings, letters, and now by Internet, email, fax and answerphone. But hey, who doesn't?" |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:01 AM True Captain. However I learnt it from a traveller round the camp fire. It fits within the genre perfectly. What is the consensus here as to what comprises 'traditional'? a serious question from a newbie here. My point is that, as a traveller, learning songs from other travellers, around the home fire, with horses and kids around, the original provenance of a song is a complete irrelevance. It is a part of the tradition. It IS a traditional travellers song. Now as collectors and revivalists one can pontificate as to what is or is not 'traditional'. But the actual communities from whence the material is drawn has its own standard and criterion. Those communities have firmly adopted songs like Sullivan John, 30ft trailer. WE don't care who wrote them, they speak to us, through us, and for us. That's enough. Same as any man on the road. You are taken at face value. Its not relevant where you come from, just where you are going and the route you take. Fair enough if Brian had a different slant on what comprises traditional. But Different communities have different traditions. Are you talking about Just English Folk? or Irish/ Scottish/as well? Where do Travellers songs fit in? IMO travellers songs cross theses boundaries, just as we do in real life. Im just suggesting that the definition of 'traditional' differs depending upon the context within which it is discussed. My Apologies if I am raising old issues that you feel have been done to death previously and feel free to ignore me. I am simply offering a different perspective. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: The Sandman Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM Sullivans John,is a contemporary song.,as I understand ,written by PeckerDunne. I think BrianPeters[original poster]is talking about traditional singers altering traditional songs. traditional singers altering contemporary songs,is another ball game completely and deserves a seperate thread. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: The Sandman Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:13 AM The older singers sang because they enjoyed the songs - not because they were in pursuit of 'authenticity' whatever that was.[quoteJimCarroll]. That is my criteria too,which is why it doesnt bother me if A L Lloyd[revival singer],or Bob Roberts altered songs. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:06 AM PS, There has been great debate as to whether Harry Cox learned songs from his broadside collection. It would be interesting to find out to what extent this was the case, and what effect it had on his repertoire. I know Bob Thomson did extensive work with Harry on the subject and I think Paul Marsh did some great work while putting together the magnificent CD. It would be interesting to find out if the result of their research was available. Without wishing to open old wounds (and straying too far off-thread), I have always thought that Harry was a prime example of how the mishandling of traditional performers and their material by outsiders like ourselves can adversely effect our knowledge and appreciation of the tradition. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Sep 08 - 03:50 AM Sorry about the late intervention - holiday (somebody has to do it!) I can't think of a traditional singer we have met who didn't alter songs, often extensively; sometimes unconsciously, but mostly on purpose. In Ireland, many of the songs were passed on via the ballad sheets which were sold at the fairs and markets well into the fifties. All of the singers we recorded learned songs from them and all of them we interviewed told us they used them as guides rather than set texts. Clare singer Tom Lenihan spoke at length about re-making songs he learned from 'the ballads' because he wasn't happy with the printed versions - he also did this with songs he got from other singers - listen to his 'Constant Farmer's Son' on 'Around The Hills of Clare' or 'Farmer Michael Hayes from 'Mount Callan Garland'. Walter Pardon did it to a great extent - not, as has been suggested, to please potential audiences, but because he had strong opinions on how the poetry of the songs should sound. When he returned home after the war he began to write down his family's songs, particularly those of his Uncle, Billy Gee, who had died while Walter was in the army. His repertoire books make fascinating reading. He told us that quite often he could only remember a couple of verses to a song, but if he thought it good enough he re-constructed it, for his own satisfaction. One of his best songs (IMO) was 'The Dark Arches', of which he sang the half verse and a chorus he could remember to us shortly after we first met him. He asked us could we find him a full text of it, and eventually Mike Yates came up with one from an old songbook. He then set about re-making the song by combining the fragment he remembered with the printed text - for me, comparing the two proved what a great artist Walter was. Scots Traveller Duncan Williamson told us how he re-made many of the ballads in his repertoire from bits he gleaned from other Travellers. I have always suspected that Jeannie Robertson did the same - compare her earlier recordings with the later ones. One of my favourite bawdy songs is Arthur Woods' 'The Tailor's Britches' which, I have been told, he claimed to have composed, but which obviously came from an earlier text. The older singers sang because they enjoyed the songs - not because they were in pursuit of 'authenticity' whatever that was. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Date: 25 Sep 08 - 12:49 PM his is the setting I have of Sullivan John, note how it differs from here
Sullivan's John |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: TheSnail Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:05 AM Thirty Foot Trailer |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Mr Red Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:23 AM Fred Jordon once said (in concert, Nags FC, Malvern, 1984/5) that he sang the songs he knew and learnt as a boy/adolescent. But when he started going out as a professional he realised that he needed a bigger repertoire and give the public what they expected. So he delved into books. But he sang a fair number from his oral tradition and all were "traditional". <PEDANT = ON> (aural tradition would be equaly accurate). </PEDANT> |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: romany man Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:51 AM Tradpiper Ill ask me uncle levi, he knows loads, ifn he dont know it ill just askaround, but it does seem to have the start of thirty foot trailer, bout time some of the ol roma somgs come back, but not many singin an playin now, especially the chavs dont wanna know aint cool is it, think of all the old stuff an they laugh at yous, oh well can only try, cushti bok cuz |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:23 AM tradpiper wrote: "But when you say traditional, how do you define tradition?" We may not want to go there - AGAIN!! But it is relevant to this discussion. Try this for size: Traditional can be defined by expectation - that is the audience expectation. "It is traditional that so&so happens." "So & so is traditionally sung here." etc." NB: this has nothing to do with "Folk" - within the context, Heartbreak Hotel & Yesterday can be traditional. And being traditional doen not make it "Folk". The problem is related to the fact that you have great difficulty defining "folk" without incorporating the context of performance - but now we're into thread drift! Tom |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM For me, the tradition is a living entity. The song, 30ft trailer,[ AKA the Aold ways are dying, is it not? ]Was written by one of our own. A man who understood the ways of our people. Whether it was written 50yrs ago or 500 it is a part of the stream. and it is written and sung in A traditional style.IMO I personally dont write extra verses to a song, that perhaps is a bit too short, I just repeat a verse. But perhaps in future I might try it out.For me,the beauties of singing traditional ballads, which are all I know, Is that;1 they are great songs, 2 they are often songs that sing of thing we can relate to. 3 that my friends and fellow travellers also know many of these songs To sing them together when we meet up and pull in to a fresh site is a great feeling. To write new words kind of defeats part of that, until/unless they are generally adopted. There are new folk songs that are making the rounds, written these past years. Adopted by travellers and folk musicians alike, they sing of the theft of the land. Freedom and oppression, age old motifs that defy time and place. Long may they do so. I am not an academic, but I have great respect for those that are. Together we can preserve and refresh the traditional music that we know and love. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:25 AM "Made all the boys ride saddle sore, And her name was Barbara Allen..." I recently came across a North American version of 'Lord Randal' in which the bequest to Randal's sister was not the usual "horse and saddle", but "mules and wagons". Another example of deliberate adaptation of an old song for a new environment, making it more familiar and 'homely'. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Art Thieme Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM Old cowboy Del Bray (possibly Dave Bray) surely did sing: Near Medicine Bow where I was born, There was a fair maid dwellin', Made all the boys ride saddle sore, And her name was Barbara Allen... Did he put it together. I have no idea. We were in a bar in Cheyenne, Wyoming -- the summer of 1962. He saw my guitar case and we went across the street to a rather rundown hotel room we had taken for the night. (This was across from the train station as I remember it.) I was 20 years old, underage, but we bought a 6-pack and shared it back in the room. Then we swapped some songs. I asked Del if he knew any cowboy songs. He took my guitar and sang what I called "Cowboy's Barbara Allen." He sang it one time and I wrote down what I had heard. Quite some time later, I re-discovered that paper in my case---and I fleshed it out fom versions I knew before. Where this western version differed from the usual renditions, I had written these glaring differences down, but not the surrounding words. The song wound up being at least 75% Del Bray, but I admit it had to be finished by me. The song is in the DT. Recently, Joel Mabus, an old friend, recorded the song. Quite a few words were different from the way I generally did it. The verses about "Do you remember in yonder town... You gave a toast to all the girls, but slighted Barbara Allen." Those verses were NOT in Del Bray's singing of it---so they are not in my version. ...and the "thorny briar" and the "rose" mingling on top of the grave's "marker rocks" --- This was because, on the plains of the American west, rocks were often piled on the graves to keep wolves from digging up the dead. I'll be back later with some other songs. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:23 PM I reckon thats got to be it folks. My eternal thanks to you for helping me out there.... Ahh the wonders of the internet! Right, now you've done your good turn for the day, let us return to the question in hand. My apologies for highjacking the discussion for a moment... it was a spontaneous thing. But when you say traditional, how do you define tradition? for example if its 50yrs old, then it could easily be in its third generation of being passed down. I heard it sung round the fire by a travelling man with the wagons and mares around us. Ive heard the name, Ewan Macoll, and have just read up on his works. Impressive. I will buy this album, sure if only to get this song. thanks again.... |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Desert Dancer Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM tradpiper, I've copied your question and the above replies to a separate thread, Lyr Req: ways of the traveller dying out, so more people will see it. (The above replies are what came to mind for me, too.) ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Tradsinger Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:28 PM How did 'to me' get in my last posting? Sloppy typing. Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Tradsinger Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM It's "The Thirty Foot Trailer" by Ewan Macoll to me. You can find the words easily on the Internet plus various versions on Youtube. Let us know if this is the song you are looking for. Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Vic Smith Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:21 PM Tradpiper wrote:- The song I am after, 'the old ways of the traveller are dyin'. I heard it once Could the song that you are after be the one that starts:- The old ways are changing you cannot deny The day of the traveler's over There's nowhere to gang and there's nowhere to bide So farewell to the life of the rover. in which case it is Ewan MacColl's Thirty Foot Trailer which is available on this site at http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2359 |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,mg Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:17 PM It's not the Ewen Macoll one is it? The buying and selling the old fortune telling Fairwell to the tents and the old caravans The tinker the gypsy the travelling man .. You can tell I don't know it. Lots of people know it. There's a bylaw to say you must go on your way And another that says.... |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: curmudgeon Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:17 PM tradpiper - the only song that comes to mind from what you seek is "Freeborn Man" by Ewan MacColl - not trad, but now fifty years old. "Winds of change are blowing,,, old ways are going, Your travelling days will soon be over." |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM The song I am after, 'the old ways of the traveller are dyin'. I heard it once, . In the morning yer man had moved on. Its clearly a traditional travellers song. So were I to find the words written down, would I remember the melody he sung it to. ? To some extent. I read music so I would hope to have the dots. So if I learnt it from the printed page, combined with my memory how would it go were I to meet him again and we sung it together? Firstly I would merge with his singing. I would copy' phrasing, inflexion, and tone of voice, to blend in. So the version I sung before hand, would be the template, the ground upon which I would base my rendition. but its quite likely that there would be a number of different lyrics due to the different sources. I would of course ask him to tell me the words to write down. Of course a recording would be great, but that kind of thing was unavailable when I learnt many of my songs. it would be the words writ out and the melody remembered. So come on !, anyone know the song? Its been bugging me the last , maybe 14yrs! Some songs have missing verses, for some reason a verse is lost. Finding a missing verse is like gold dust to me, let alone a missing song.! |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Tradsinger Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM Gordon had a unique style. Like marmite, you either loved it or hated it, but there is no doubt that he had a strong resonant voice, great breath control and very good pitch over a long song. His singing worked for me, but obviously not for the Captain. But it would be boring if we all liked the same thing. Anyway, I fear we are going off topic. Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: The Sandman Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:04 PM Gordon Hall, magnificent? I heard him sing Lord Randall at the national,sorry, I beg to differ. not my kind of singer at all,I would rather listen to A L Lloyd singig the Two Magicians,AL lloyd was a singer who could bring a story to life,even if he was a revival singer. |
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Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Vic Smith Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:49 PM Tradsinger wrote:- His version of Lord Becket (17 and a half minutes, 3 fags and a double whisky) got longer every time you heard it. Two Things:- 1](17 and a half minutes, 3 fags and a double whisky) In my experience, it was nearly always a treble gin made up to a pint with tonic water. 2] He also sang me great versions of Henry Martin and the Jolly Butchers, exactly as collected from Henry Burstow 90 years previously, so presumably learnt by him from a printed source. I never heard Gordon talk about this, but after he died I was interviewing Bob Lewis (partly for album notes, partly for a Musical Traditions interview which is on-line at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/b_lewis.htm and Bob showed me a large book of photocopies of songs written out in Henry Burstow's handwriting which had been passed on to Bob after Gordon died. I don't think that Bob knew where Gordon got these photocopies from, but I was able to check the handwriting against a letter from Henry Burstow to Lucy Broadwood (which is in Shirley Collins' possession) to confirm that it was Henry's writing. I think I remember reading somewhere (probably in Vic Gammon's unpublished thesis) that Lucy Broadwood got Henry Burstow to write songs out for her, so this may be the original source. There's a photo I took of Bob holding this book along with the article on the MT site. There is also a long interview with Gordon Hall dating from 1991 on the Musical Traditions website at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/g_hall.htm |
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