The term 'folk Nazi'

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lena
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:38 PM

Groucho Marxist.First of all,there couldn't be any anti-semitic subtext in my message.the though is quite laughable;it would mean to deny the jew bits in my roots,to deny the great-grandfather I'm so proud of who had a fair bit of problems in being in Germany during the war.it would mean to deny the fact that the majority of my friends are jew,it would mean to forget that i was brought in an anti-intolerance family environment and I'm not offended about your label given that you don't know me personally...but really,you made a glamorous mistake.What I was telling is:beware of any intolerance.Because what was perpetrated in that occasion wasn't some evil power taking possession of a crowd.It was what is in human nature.Those people,when they did what they did,tought to be right.they thought they were defending theirselves from some other 'evil' human beings.A trigger for intolerance is exactly this one of demonizing other people.So,of course,we all know that any crime against human beings is...well,there are not enough words in our language to express how terrible it is(there is music,thank god...and yesterday I saw and amazing orchestra piece about victims in Vietnam War that said exactly what i'm thinking now),but it's not coming form outside us.It's a mechanism we can fall in if brainwashed and unaware.Intolerance is an old weapon we used thousands of years ago to defend ourselves.It's still there,and we must overcome it.If we don't,we are all liable to fall in the trick.And if i was being provocative,ok.And yes,fascist is the italian correspondent of nazi and in my over-communist background I heard it said thousands of times.But it's the same stuff:aggressive,devastating intollerance.But labels help us going:'ok,i'm not a fascist,so i'm right.'So I don't have to whatch out for the intollerance that may be there,inside my nature.But intolerance is there,and we must beware of it,and trace it,and overcome it,and never stop thinking,and never severe ourselves from others.Because it's easy to feel connected with victims of these crimes,and feel sorry,and feel outraged,and feel angry at others...what's less easy,and more humiliating,is to put ourselves in the murderer's mind,recognize the pattern and say:there!!It's there that he screwed up and the mechanism started,and I must never fall in it.If I'm not wrong,a long time ago some Konrad Lorenz man got flamed when he argued that aggressivity was a typical human trait and blah blah.What he was doing was giving us a chance to be aware of the trigger we had in our nature,and overcoming it.

And,Groucho Marxist,you had my favourite cookie at the Mudcat and I'd miss it.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:04 PM

Interesting comments all the way down the thread. Some final thoughts...

A)I still find the term absurd.Must be the juxtaposition of the terms "folk" and "Nazi"

B)I have mixed feelings about setting aside the term "Nazi" for one reference: that of conjuring up the evil and horror of Hitler's regime.To grant a term that kind of power is to sanctify it,even if in a negative manner.I think Lenny Bruce was on to something when he said that the more we hide and stigmatize a word,the more power we endow it with.

C)I believe that Jerry Seinfeld can call someone a "soup Nazi" and not be guilty of forgetting the great evil of Hitler,or of betraying his Jewish heritage.It is,in part,the contrast between the Soup Nazi's harmless behavior and the deadly nature of the actual Nazis that made the term funny.

D)I think that the term,ludicrous as it is in my view,is a harsh one to use in actual fact,especially alluding to anyone in this forum,and I would not use it myself.I respect the opinions of those who do feel it is innappropriate,and I understand their point of view.

Finally...many of us had fathers,friends and relatives who suffered in the War,and our memories of Hitler and the Nazis are still fresh.As new generations (mbo) come along,the immediacy of the memory will dim.The reactions to terms like "Hitler" and "Nazi" will not be as immediate.And maybe that is not such a bad thing.What is important for them to remember is the truth of what happened,and I think,if Mbo is an example,that they will be wise enough to remember the lessons.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:56 PM

Joe,

Unfortunately, I think that bigotry has reared its ugly head in several of the posts to this thread.

The post immediately before your's from "Guest, I deleted my cookie so I could be GUEST," equating rabbis and Nazis was a nasty piece of work.

I don't know if Grab intended his post to be bigoted, but, perhaps unfortunately, it did give me that impression.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:42 PM

My link to the Gypsy song thread wasn't because I think there's a lot of conscious or intentional bigotry around against Gypsies on the Mudcat. It was because itb demonstrated the way in wich the Nazi genocide against Gypsies hasn't entered into our consciousness in the way that the genocide against the Jews has.

That means that it's still possible for decent people to collude in this type of racism, and not recognise it. There was a time when the same kind of thing was true of anti-Semitism. Largely because the Jewish genocide has entered into our awareness, that is no longer the case with anti-Semitism (except of course for the sinister anti-Arab version which is so prevalent).

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 06:27 PM

Do you live in peaceful thoughts
While thousands sleep in jail cell cots
Do you eat prosperity'd
From the hands of nazi greed?

The acting force in C.I.A.,
'arranging' U.S. plots that pay
Was born of S.S. personel
The ravagers of earthly hell

And sitting in our comfy chairs
So distant from the hungry scares
We sup on spoils unfairly won,
And worser still, we think we're fun.

And fun is it?... arguably
To curse electrons; you or me...
As if in freedom's finest hour
Our love is wasted use of power

So if you say (I think you might)
That you're for music; proud to fight,
Freedom is as freedom does,
Don't criticize, love, because...

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,RichP60
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 06:20 PM

I think of a 7ft. tall man with an intimadating attitude dressed as a leperchaun and carrying a spiked, metel accoustic guitar when I hear that word. Adolph Hitler did like the song "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf" and he would listen to it over and over again. His other folkish tastes most likely ran similar.

Subject: Bigotry? I don't think so.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 06:10 PM

I think it's important to understand what we're disagreeing about here. We're talking about whether the term "folk Nazi" is offensive. In the Gypsy (click) thread that McGrath linked to, the question was whether a particular song was offensive. Some people think they are offensive, and some people think they aren't - that's the issue.

As far as I can see, there has been no prejudice expressed or intended against Jews in this thread, and there was no prejudice expressed or intended against gypsies in the other thread (excluding, perhaps, a nasty comment or two from a very few idiotic flamers). On the whole, though the people who have participated in these threads are people of good will. They are in sympathy with the oppressed, and they have no prejudice against Jews or Gypsies. They simply disagree on whether a term is offensive.

I am quite certain that the person who used the term "Folk Nazi" was thinking of Seinfeld, not about Jews at all. I have to admit that "xxx-nazi" is not in my vocabulary because I think it's pushing things a little farther than I like to, but I'm sure that the people who use it mean no offense. I probably wouldn't sing the gypsy song, either - but I'd certainly like to have seen the lyrics, so I could evaluate the song for myself. I'm sure the person who requested the song meant no offense, either.

If the person speaking the words means no offense, perhaps we'd better give that person the benefit of the doubt and not read offense where it is not intended. Let's not go accusing each other of bigotry in these threads - it's just not fair to level a charge of bigotry where there is none intended. This is simply a disagreement about whether something is offensive.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,I deleted my cookie so I could be GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 06:05 PM

I have an idea for a term to replace folk nazi. FOLK RABBI. After all, aren't rabbis always telling people what to do. Just like nazis.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: IvanB
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:48 PM

Guest who deleted your cookie, I'm sorry that you feel the level of freedom and trust on Mudcat has dropped to a level that forces you to post anonymously.

That said, Mike and Grouch/Lou have dictated NOTHING. All either of them has done is state an opinion: Mike that the term 'nazi' is not one to be used lightly and Groucho that he feels the present atmosphere at MC requires his abstinence from the forum for a time. The truth of the situation is that no one, excepting those that have the power to edit, delete or otherwise censor posts, can dictate anything on Mudcat. And there've been a pretty explicit policy statements to the effect that very little will ever be edited or deleted.

My hope is that the content of this thread will make us all a little more reluctant to apply labels to other people. As I stated in an earlier post, a counterargument to someone's view can be much more effective than a negative label and doesn't carry the added baggage of being hurtful.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: BDtheQB
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:27 PM

Hold on people... "Can't we just all get along?"

another phrase from another King

"I have a dream.."

I am going to compose a song with this thread as a basis I need someone to help with the music as I am not a musician. I will post lyrics and rudimentary music on a free eboard site shortly. Those who wish to help in the project may email me at [e-mail] and I will give them the URL.

In the meantime.. let's not use any ethnic words to describe anything or person that we don't like.

It may be acceptable to use television networks.. like she's a Fox or he's an ABC... or did you see that CBS.. Labels belong on Corn flakes.. not people flakes...

bd

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Mongo
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:08 PM

...sorry, but I'm going to lighten this up one notch with the following 5 ways to tell you're dealing with a Folktator...

5. They drink Black and Tanshirts 4. "Black 47" is tried and sentenced to death... in abstentia 3. Billy Bragg is deemed a heretic, and Jihad is declared 2. Your pitchpipe is stuffed with Fertilizer, and found next to an ashtray stolen from the neighborhood U-Haul

and lastly..

1. Your metronomes ALWAYS run on time.

Now, with that, there is really only one way out...

A) Educate yourself first, your families second. If you use a word incorrectly, you're an idiot, and hopefully people will help you figure it out.

B) Since the dawn of time, people will disagree, let 'em, it's their god/goddess/tphilisophical/reincarnated right.

C) Darwinism dictates the strong will survive, Social Darwinism dictates that an idiot will not survive a social life, and all you have to do is ignore 'em, and they'll either rethink their philosaphy, or suffer ostracization.

D) Common sense dictates that if I upset someone, I should try to understand why, and either apologize and make a change, or accept B.

E) Everyone has a valid point, I just wanted to add mine.

Mongo

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,I deleted my cookie so I could be GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:55 PM

By dictating the kind of langauge we should use here, Mike and Groucho-Lou have shown themselves to be the real folk nazis. Too many of us have been too quick to comply with their PC agenda.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:28 PM

"Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust ..." No indeed - in particular there was another attempt at genocide carried out by the Nazis, with Gypsies as the target. And it never really let up. (Maybe even here on the Mudcat in a limited kind of way.

There's a saying among disabled rights activists "label jars not people", and I think in a way it applies in this kind of context as well. "I think A, you think B." That entitles me to say "I think you're wrong". Sticking a label on it - "you're just one of those XXXXs" doesn't help the argument any.

Save the insults for people who need them. This Limbug fella sounds like one maybe - we're spared him over here. But there are equivalents, definitely in the tabloid press.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:15 PM

Grrrrrrrr...

Ebbie

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 03:12 PM

Most of these issues are addressed better in song than we have done here. See the lyrics at:

http://www.jg.org/folk/artists/fredsmall/i.will.stand.fast.lyrics.html

~Susan

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 02:30 PM

Hell Jeri, I want to have your baby! Your ability to analyze an issue without ever letting irrational emotion cloud your clearheaded thinking is an all too rare commodity these days. I am a great admirer of your objectivity.

How big a step is it from "we have a right to kill people in other countries we don't like" (war) to "we have a right to kill people in our own country we don't like?"

Evidently not very big. Wasn't that what happened in Waco, Texas? Surely I'm not the only one who was horrified at the images streaming across the TV screen of an American offensive launched by American troops on American soil against American citizens.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:36 PM

Reading through this thread I see that there have been many thoughtful responses who understand why I raised the issue. I hope that this discussion will have served as a reminder about how casual use of some terms can be very hurtful, even when there was no intention.

Unfortunately, I think that there are also a few who missed the point.

Groucho's points are well taken. I will be in direct touch with him and hope that he comes back.

And like Groucho, I also do not understand the need to find an acceptable term with which to demonize those you disagree with.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:19 PM

Gee, Grab, I didn't realise all of those programs I watch, in the US, on BBC television had to really be Americans acting as Brits; even the BBC newspeople, eh?

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,OFFENDED
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:58 PM

Yeah Grab, you're right. The problem in the U.S. is there are too many Jewish immigrants.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:58 PM

Steve, I hope you will join Mudcat. I'd like to exchange PM's with you.

~S~

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Grab
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:43 PM

It's curious that the US, who suffered the least in WW2 (hence their economic power) are the ones with the greatest hang-ups - is this with the percentage of Jewish immigrants?

There was a show in the 80's in Britain called Allo Allo, presumably along the lines of Hogan's Heroes (not having seen HH, I wouldn't know for sure). Basically it was a skit on national stereotypes - the sexy French waitress, the fat bumbling German officer, etc. Where it also scored was its portrayal of the English - 2 thick toffee-nosed pilots and a pair of SOE spies (one female and competent, one an accident-prone guy who can't speak the language properly). No American characters, so presumably it'll never get shown over there.

Incidentally, there's the old debating rule that the first person to compare the other side to the Nazis automatically loses. I have to say, I'd not use the phrase myself, not bcos of any hang-ups about insulting Holocaust victims, but bcos the phrase is inherently meaningless - if I want to slate someone's views, I can think of better ways to do it.

Oh, and a BTW - the phrase "gun Nazi" isn't entirely incorrect in many cases...

Grab.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:20 PM

This is the recounting of two events that changed my white-liberal-polyanna life. It is about what is safety. I tell these to say how the past lives in the present, and what I learned about being in the present with someone who still feels the past.

The first is the story of a young woman of color I met in a particular community. I was fascinated with her, and I tried so hard to get to know her. There was always a wall she would not see me through. In a session with the leader of that community, who mentioned how hard it was for this young woman to function in such a white group, how isolated she felt-- I said, "Well, it would help if she would look around." The leader jumped all over me quite loudly and also, somehow lovingly, and explained that the burden of getting through, like it or not, would be upon ME, not the young woman. She could step past that wall any time, true. But if I wanted contact, it would be on me to step through first, and properly.

She said to me, "It isn't fair, but it's so. If you want to get close enough to her for her to see you at all, if you want her to allow you access to get close enough to invite her past that wall, you will have to take her where she is at and go first." And I learned that whatever I might think someone could do, or should do, to overcome the results of past mistreatment they had experienced personally or had been handed down to them, the reality was that none of the dialog I longed for, and hoped could help them, would ever even begin if I did not step past my own stuff first.

The second event was that I chose to attend an Israeli dance troupe's performance in the Chicago area. I wasn't thinking when I bought my ticket, what I was signing on for. Ever hear of Skokie? Nazi marches? The dancers would be, it "just so happens," at the Skokie Jewish Community Center. Made sense to me. But when I arrived, alone, oh my. I sat in this huge auditorium surrounded by Jews, surrounded by Skokie, and all I could think of was the bomb that could be under my seat. And all around me were laughing, friendly, kind, funny people acting as though they had not a care in the world.

Are you afraid of needles, or flying, or snakes, or anything unreasonable? It was like that. I could hardly breathe. I didn't know if I could stay. My whole body was demanding flight. I made myself stay because I was unwilling to be less brave than the actual potential targets. They face this every day!!! I thought a lot about Germany, as I waited for the curtain to rise on the performance. I thought about what I would have done. I found The Diary of Anne Frank, suddenly, a whole different story. I was desperate to think of anything that would let me stay put.

The curtain rose. Out from the wings of the stage tumbled the troupe. Here I was, fearing death, and here they were, more full of life than anything I had ever seen. Young. Vibrant, free, beautiful, free, free... FREE. It was then that I learned what it means to dance like no one is watching. And I thought, how wrong of me, to sit there feeling that I should be spared a possible attack because I was not Jew and also had not done anything wrong. It was wrong also to think these people around me should be spared, for they too had done nothing wrong.

It was the wrong point to look at, at all. The point was, live. Fully. Knowing how awful life can be, live. Live BIG. Live LOUD. Dance in the face of it. Die THAT way.

You see, these Jews had not forgotten the past. They had redeemed it. They had gone far beyond "getting over" it. They had gone so far past it that I had never realized how far there is to go, and it was only when they felt safe among themselves that they could show it freely enough for me to glimpse it. That's why we don't forget genocide of any sort. Not because we don't want to repeat it. Of course we don't. Even dogs know not to make the same mistake twice. We humans have a greater opportunity, to lift our whole people up past what has gone before. To take a wrong and make a right that could not have been, otherwise.

I have never told this story to a Jew. It seemed too much like, "Some of my best friends are Jewish." But here is the secret. When I look someone in the eyes now, I think that they see me, not the wall I saw before. Because they see me looking at them, expecting that same measure of life that I saw in the dancers. They step past the wall they see, because I have come out from behind mine as much as I can in that moment.

I have walked many a mile since, in many a sort of shoes. (It's one of those cliches that you only get if you actually try it, and are paying attention.) And I would risk death gladly for the privilege of walking in more shoes that way, to have the chance of seeing my world more clearly, more fully, more lovingly. Once you wear someone's shoes, loving them is effortlessly different.

~Susan

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Steve Beisser
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:13 PM

I agree... I have great friends who are VERY talented musicians that also happen to be Jews... They would not appreciate it if I or anyone used the term 'Nazi' to refer to anyone except the bastards that we know were the real Nazis. I am also a minister of the Gospel and I resent the fact that terms like these have become so commonplace that I was once referred to as a 'Jesus Nazi' because I am a so-called 'fundie' who believes in what the Bible says, word for word. Please, friends, our history has always been striped with the blood and sweat of protest... let's speak out against this awful, bigoted labeling. God bless you all.

Steve

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Jew
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:54 AM

To Groucho Marxist:

There are many good people on this website who, while not being Jewish, understand why you and I feel the way we do. The fact that they haven't posted to this thread is not an indication of their lack of interest or feeling. Some will read the posts and think there is nothing more they could add because others have already "said" it. Some just haven't had the time to go through all the threads. And, there are those who never go into a thread that is not specifically music-related. I have been a member for a long time and at no other time have I seen any post as overtly anti-semitic as that of "Guest." Even when there was a discussion of "Nazi" music, a couple of years back, I did not have the impression that anyone was wearing a white sheet.

I, of all people, understand why you would choose to leave The Mudcat Cafe. I would, however, urge you to stay and communicate with those who are what make up the "good" of the Mudcat. It is so difficult to ignore the "bad," so I wont even make that suggestion. But I would implore you to lurk awhile and see what happens and to enjoy the other threads.

Jews worldwide mutter the phrase "We must never forget." To forget would be to erase the memories of those who died and those who survived. To forget would be to open the door even wider for those who teach that it never happened.

Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust ... there were members of the resistance movements all over Europe and every man, woman, and child who lived in a country that was occupied for Hitler's forces.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,John
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:24 AM

Jeri,

I have to agree with what you said about Limbaugh's use of illogical/unfair debating methods. I OFTEN turn the radio off. The song you posted though points out the broad brush with which his philosophical end of the spectrum is painted. Logically, a philosophy that encourages less government intervention is not at the same end of the philosophical spectrum as tyrannists, fascists, nazis etc who are by there very nature pro government (however well or ill-meaning that government may be). Of course I would be pleased if Limbaugh's forum could be handed over to the likes of George Will so that my points of agreement wouldn't be clouded with the personality distaste engendered by Limbaugh. He is often the blowhard he is accused of being, and thus, often the worst messenger for his causes.

This forum must be more thoughful and balanced than my first post would imply though, because the two who expressed the most emotional "hurt", seem to be the two philosophical opposites, myself and groucho. He by the thoughtless clumsy use of language and history, and I for being philosophically included in the number whom you seem to think are the true current day nazis (if we only understood history and politics as you understood them).

John

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:54 AM

I am very sorry to hear that Lou/Groucho. On the whole, I think you would find that the majority of Mudcatters do not mean to be hurtful and are generally open to new ways of thinking and learning.

I will send you a personal message, in case you do not read this. There are some classic threads which I think you might be interested in and which may help you think twice about leaving.

Sincerely,

katlaughing

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Groucho Marxist (inactive)
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:08 AM

I've only been reading and posting at Mudcat Cafe for a few weeks, but I now feel so sick at heart that I think it will be a long time before I return again, if I ever return.

First of all, my thanks to Mike Regenstrief for raising this issue. He said things that I've wanted to say whenever I've encountered people using terms like "folk Nazi."

I would also like to thank several contributors to this thread for their insightful comments: Praise, kat/katlaughing, Thomas the Rhymer, Hedy West, Jeri, Spaw, IvanB, Guest-Jew, Giac, balladeer, BDtheQB, Ebbie, bflat, CamiSu.

The Guest who suggested that the Jews get over their complexes about the Nazis was just an obvious anti-Semite hiding behind his anonymous cloak or bedsheet.

Certain other posters just seem to not want to understand why terms like "folk Nazi" are so offensive. The sub-theme of this thread about finding an alternative term with which to demonize those who disagree with you is disheartening to me.

One of the posts that is driving me away from the Mudcat Cafe was the one from Lena. She refers to the Holocaust, the most evil event in modern history, as merely the "hebrew tragedy" and asks for tolerance for those who would cheapen its memory.

I'm sorry Lena, but there's a subtext to your message that is not very different from that of the overtly anti-Semitic Guest.

And Callie, Mel Brooks is now on record as regretting his "Springtime for Hitler," song and theme in "The Producers."

"Hogan's Heroes" depicted the Nazis as bumbling fools. They were not. They were highly efficient in their genocide and came much too close to success in their quest for world domination.

I think that many Mudcatters have learned much from this thread. However, some of the other posters have not. Im sorry, but they have made it very hard for me to continue here, at least at present.

If anyone should wish to communicate with me privately, my email is [e-mail].

Sincerely,

Lou Melamed aka Groucho

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:04 AM

I detest Nazism whether committed by those who gave us the term, those who preceeded them or those who succeeded them. My Government/Nation and yours amongst them. Which is precisely why I abhore the view which suggests that the meaning of the term has somehow changed BECAUSE of its debased usage. Nazism is evil embodied in the state. Any lesser usage of it devalues our common language and (by making the term "more acceptable" - as some here clearly find it to be) helps cast a gloss over the evils of the Third Reich.

Which is in no way to castigate Mbo for his careless use of the term - we all make gross errors of judgement at times!

G.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: CamiSu
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:02 AM

That's a use of the term I've never heard. And while I'm not sure why someone would object to good street music, I suspect it's related to the fact that someone might enjoy it, and there are people out there who want to be sure none of us has fun or expresses joy in public! (Of course there was the kid who played "Octopus' Garden" on his sax every day for HOURS on the Boulder Mall. There was some talk of saxicide, but we did learn to ignore it. We figured his mother told him to take it elsewhere and he happened to like that bench...

BTW Arlo looks great with grey hair.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: reggie miles
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 09:32 AM

Mbo, I didn't read the thread where this term was originally posted though I have heard the term used elsewhere.

Playing music on the street one is often enough confronted by folks, who for one reason or another, can't relate. I can't speculate as to the why of it but somehow they feel it's their responsibility to force people who enjoy this activity to move along and find some other location to perform. They often voice their complaints about such activities to authorities who have laws passed and rules enacted which allow security and police forces to treat these people as criminals for singing songs and playing music in this fashion. Perhaps the power of a single individual who has the courage to stand up and express himself musically is something that threatens some basic programming language that they have imbedded in their code.

That's where I first heard the term FN used. It was applied to those who would actually use security or police to force buskers, by threat of fines or jail time or worse, to stop playing. Frankly, when I have been prevailed upon by these sort of tactics for busking I feel bewildered. I just can't envision what it is that is so threatening about performming in this way that it would cause others to take such drastic measures to prohibit it.

Cornfused

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 09:30 AM

Callie, you've hit a sensitive point with me. As a citizen of the United States I too have to live within a society that once committed genocide against an entire race of people. It is a shame and a disgrace.

We need to keep in mind a very disturbing fact. The Nazis were only people who were unleashed. There leadership made it OK to do what they did. That ability to hate, to injure, and to kill lurks beneath the surface of all too many of our neighbors. Believe me when I say this. I was raised to be a redneck. I learned a lot about hate born in ignorance from my father and his friends. I could tell you stories of casual remarks that would call down the flames of hell on my head. Let me just say that Guest's remarks are pale and flacid in comparison.

There has to be a way to defuse the hate. Rush Limbaugh fed that hate and ignorance for whatever reason. Others keep it alive. It is our job to turn that around, through our love and our music. It is easy to agree here about what those people are. It is more difficult to speak out when we are among them but that is where we are needed.

I am not a Christian but I have taken the ideals into my heart. I conform to the commandments and lessons as best I can. I have learned the lessons about the value of humanity and love. I am no longer a redneck. I was cured by knowledge, friendship and love.

Oh, and I know this approach will work because I have seen it work on my father too.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:55 AM

Mbo, you're not the first, nor will you be the last to use that term. Your comment was only an example, and is (IMO) not the sole reason for this discussion. (And I missed it in the Arlo thread.)

There are some things it's good to be desensitized to - I don't believe this is one of them. When I was a kid and watched Hogan's Heroes, my parents explained that a good number of folks didn't think it was funny at all. The Nazis weren't warm and cuddly and nice to laugh at. They ripped the guts out of people. There are people who still believe they have a right to kill those they don't like. The German people, for the most part, embraced the Nazis. We aren't any different from the way they were, other than we remember what they did. While they were tearing people from their homes and putting them into concentration camps, we in the US were doing the same with the Japanese-Americans. We just never got to the point of intentionally killing our prisoners. It could happen again if we forget. How big a step is it from "we have a right to kill people in other countries we don't like" (war) to "we have a right to kill people in our own country we don't like?"

The Man That Talks Trash Every Day by David Diamond.

Re Rush Limbaugh - I used to listen to his show at lunchtime. I frequently didn't make it through the entire show. He seemed to constantly divert conversation away from the subject by provoking emotional responses. He would call people names and lump them into groups he didn't like until it became more like "bash the caller" than "debate the subject." The same thing happens here when someone's afraid of losing an argument. They quit talking about the subject and go for the throat. They attack the person instead of the issue. It happens in politics, and while neither side is above personal attacks, it seems that Republicans (at least in the last Presidential election) have made it policy. For me, this is a akin to admitting "we can't win when we discuss political issues."

Forget "PC." Yeah, we have a right to free speech. The decision comes down to whether using that particular term is more important to us than hurting people.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: sledge
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 06:36 AM

If there is to be highlighting of such behaviour in the past I wonder how the people of Abyssinia feel about Italians.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Callie
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:06 AM

Here here Lena. As an Australian I have to live with the fact that the English colonists committed genocide on our Indigenous peoples. And that's a global atrocity.

So why is the term 'Fascist' less offensive than 'Nazi'? Because they killed fewer people? Is this a quantitative thing? As an Italian, I find the term 'Fascist' used in everyday contexts offensive, but I also need to be able to laugh at the term when it's used humorously.

I wholeheartedly support Mike R's sentiments, but what they don't allow for is for we humans to have to laugh at human atrocities in order to deal with them. Laughter and crying - opposite sides of the same coin. What a poignant moment it was when Mel Brooks sang "Hitler in Springtime".

However, as with all humour, it needs to dealt in sensitive doses in some instances, because the tragedy is just too great.

Callie

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lena
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 03:38 AM

Nazis were just the only bastards to be recognized and labelled(when their ideology became out of fashon).There are other human crimes still on which bring no label nor condemnation.I'd like the word 'nazi'to be cheapened down,so that it doesn't refer anymore to some isolated evil episode in human history.We are all liable to be nazi,as soon as we shut our tolerance down,our intelligence,our connection with all human beings.A nazi is not a person suddenly possessed by the devil.a nazi is a person like me,or you,who turns another human being(or his difference) into the 'evil'.And I've had enough practical examples of that in the last ten years.If you feel offended because to you it's like a profanation of the hebrew tragedy,fair enough.But please be tolerant with other people's ways of expressing theirselves.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:17 AM

Oh, everything I was going to say has been said... I don't find 'folk Nazi' offensive, and unless you all think the Nazis were something valuable, how could this term 'cheapen it's meaning?' If you were comparing your foes to Holocaust victims, THAT would be offensive. But equating Nazis with closed-minded assholes? Seems pretty appropriate to me.

I'd hate to see some of you more-sensitive folks when 'Hogan's Heroes' comes on the tv... ;)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: CamiSu
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:15 AM

Sorry Guest John. I have heard Limbaugh. He's pretty hateful. I realise he's not the only one, but he certainly brooks no disagreement and resorts to namecalling pretty quickly. He seems to truly enjoy pushing buttons and when he gets someone more intelligent than he is (and many if not most of his callers are pretty sorry debaters) he just cuts them off. My friend and sometimes boss could laugh and say "Oh, it's only Rush." I wasn't quite that patient..

Cami Su

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:29 AM

BillD, like the Virginian said to Trampas "Smile when you call me that."

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: CamiSu
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:16 AM

Really good discussion. Mbo, don't feel bad, we all get corrected for mistakes sometimes. What we need to feel bad about is not seeing when our behavior should change.

I truly had not thought much about the idea of using the word 'Nazi' as has been pointed out here. I've heard it and not really reacted. My apologies. As so many of you have pointed out, it does hurt and silence often implies consent.

However, I certainly do react with distress to the rise of the Neo-Nazi movement around the world. It is simply incomprehensible to me that such evil can be welcomed by anyone, and I for one do find it extremely difficult to love those that hold these views, (or even to laugh at them--I tend to feel sick), so I think I will have to hold back on that for now. I realize that anger only feeds them, so I try to express love for that which they hate, and am getting more bold in expressing my disagreement with the 'Take Back Vermont-ers'.

But Thomas, music is so much more than entertainment. It is powerful--particularly folk music, because it is our voice. This is not just PC, because we have all this history where we've been working out these problems, but what we write now has power to express our new ideas.

Thank you all-and my response to the Guest is "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it." This doesn't mean we are stuck there, Just that we DON'T forget.

Cami Su

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,John
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:10 AM

I feel sick. With mutual understanding and assent (with Praise's notable exception) you collectively decry the use of a word that has clearly semantically morphed to a lesser meaning within our culture as a whole, and chosen words, current in the gravity of their meaning, and condemned someone (Limbaugh) whom I would guess you have had characterized for you (not first-hand). I regularly hear the left using the inflamatory language that lessens the quality of debate. In this election year, as in the past several, it will be said with stunning regularity (every time a republican references the stance of his opponent) that the republicans rely on "Negative Campaigning" when clearly an honest assesment of the situation would have to note that, if that is negative, than both sides use it equally. Whoever made the post that pointed out that we seem only to take exception with the words we choose when it is our "ox that is being gored" was quite insightful.

John

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: balladeer
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 11:04 PM

Mbo: I hope you're joking with that "scum of the earth" remark. Look on the bright side. You sparked a lively discussion.

Guest: You and others who share your views are the reason so many do so much hard work to keep images of WWII always alive in the public imagination. We must never forget.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 10:33 PM

.....coming late to this discussion, but one who is concerned..

you know, a few years ago, during pledge week on our local NPR station, the local folk DJ read my contribution on the air and commented..."oh, this is from Bill D, our local 'folk facist'"....*grin*...

well, I took it in good spirit, because I knew her and knew it was a joke, exaggerated for effect...but 'live' or in person, it is much easier to judge the flavor of the comment, whereas, in print, or here in a discussion forum it isn't!

This is one of the reasons why so many flame wars happen. The WWW/internet is still so new that we have not figured out how to relate VT yet...words just sit there, and the one who posted them is faceless...and we type words we might not use in a face-to-face meeting. And it can be hours or days before explanations are made.

Nazi is a word that should not be used carelessly, as the images it brings up are WAY too tender and horrible....I guess if anyone said it to my face, I could judge them at the time...but they'd BETTER be smiling right!

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: bflat
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 10:32 PM

Correction:

ignore and shame on the Guest.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: bflat
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 10:30 PM

Sorry Susan, can't keep quiet. The post prior to yours is the opinion of a coward and someone of questionable character. To use words that hurt and promulgate hatred is morally wrong. To ingore such is equally morally wrong. Shame on you for your ill will.

bflat

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST,Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 10:21 PM

You know, I've been called a folk nazi, a purist and a folk snob. They can all piss me off depending the circumstance. I don't rationally believe that somebody is implying I want to kill six million people if I say I don't care for Eileen Ivers playing through a bunch of effects. There are things I like that other people think are way out in left field and vice-versa. Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill are anything but traditional and I love their music while a couple friends of mine shook their heads.
Language is a funny thing. A carelessly coined expression can quickly become part of standard speech. It's not right but I seriously don't think its intended in the context it seems to have been interpreted here.
On the other hand, I'm not of Jewish or Polish descent and as such really can't voice a valid opinion as to how offensive such a term is to people of said lineage. It's like sitting in an Irish pub here in the States and throwing around a bunch of barroom rhetoric about the politiacal situationin the North, or singing abunch of IRA ballads to get a gig. I don't have to live in a war-zone as a result of it so I really am not entitled to a vote. I can say that I'm over half German and have the term nazi thrown at me specifically as an ethnic slur on a couple of occasions (once on my way to play an anti-KKK rally) and THAT really made me angry.
It's a distasteful term and you've made a valid point but as I said earlier it's generally not intended in that context.

Slán agat,
Rich

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:57 PM

Please. Let's let that last one go. Please. Please.

~S~

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:55 PM

The war has been over for more than fifty years. The Jews should get over their complexes about the nazis.

Mbo, if you want to use the name folk nazis to describe folk nazis, its ok with me.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Mbo
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:46 PM

Again, I'm sorry for starting this whole can of worms. Boy, you really know how to make a guy feel like the scum of the earth.

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:44 PM

I wholeheartedly agree with those who take umbrage at the casual or humorous use of the term "Nazi". An analogy that works for me: Let's say that my child was hideously murdered. Let's call the murderer 'John Gacy'. If years later, I discovered that people were casually or humorously saying, That guy or that situation is a real john gacy, not only would I be offended, I would be devastated by their stupidity.

IMO there can never be anything funny about John Gacy. Take my point?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi'
From: BDtheQB
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:41 PM

"Rabid Traditionalist" is perhaps the best description of what is meant. I am a person who is always trying to find humor in everything and I nearly posted a rebuttal type of "joke" to the FN thing. It was funny, in the way that a blonde joke or Polish joke is funny but I refrained because of the very thing being discussed here. I am now glad that I refrained from the posting. I am not in any fashion hateful, heck I even don't mind that Rush guy living on the same planet but funny is funny if it is funny. Unfortunately we can't be funny in any of the old fashioned Traditionalist ways anymore. It is in a way a shame but I do know that the world changes and moves on. I just wonder what would happen to the old "Yiddish" comedians today if they had to use their old acts. Amos and Andy were reasonably humorous in their time to most folks but would never be correct today. It is a sign of the times and we must change with them but we should record the legacy of what has passed and make sure that no revisionism takes control of our history as it has in the past. Was George Washington really that honest?