BS: Culture of Offendedness

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:03 PM

Yes Jeri, you are on the wrong planet. I know of no other that accepts our life form though. Some, like me have a little dream of a place called Heaven but I doubt I'd ever be worthy... A nice thought though...

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:57 PM

John Hardly, I agree it's hard to get any recognition for doing good things. I guess where someone does good or does bad depends a lot on whether they want to improve things and be proud of what they've done or just be noticed.

Spaw...awww, shucks - thanks! Fuck you too!

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: NicoleC
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:54 PM

Hmmm. We do have televised gladitorial contests. It's called "professional sports," particularly boxing and football. We even treat sports figures the same way -- revered, sex objects who are expected to be rather stupid and otherwise incompetant.

And of course, that old show American Gladiators. Or anyone watch extreme fighting lately? Or those shows with the killer machines?

I think it's true people may get offended more easily. But I also think it's true that people are more offensive to begin with and manners are, like, SO out of style, you know? What passes for manners are generally a ridiculous set of customs in any culture, but it does require everyone to be paying attention to the way they treat each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:50 PM

Rapiers, it IS a good way to solve problems and work together, and I've had the opportunity to work in that sort of environment. It doesn't work so well when most folks WANT to keep blaming people and things and there's no one to step in and say "Now, stop all that blaming stuff and talk about how to fix this!" I guess laying blame is a way to not have to deal directly with the issue, and may be more likely when folks don't think they can have any effect. Can't do anything about it - might as well be nasty to someone.

I agree about people and their buttons, Jon. I just get the feeling that folks come here (and go elsewhere) just hoping someone will push a button, and may then believe loud and hurtful reactions are justified - that they're good, and noble, and worthy of expressing if not nurturing.

In the Real World, what kindess exists seems to be dwindling. I don't know how it is anywhere else, but I remember how things were right after 9/11. Drivers were more polite and people in general seemed to give an impression of supporting one another. Now they yell, call each other names and talk AT people instead of TO them. It feels like we're divided, not by opposing views as we've always had them and always will, but an intolerance of any views foriegn to our own. People get offended, and act as though that justifies any extreme treatment of 'the other'. THAT's what really bothers me. It's not that people get mad - it's how they think that gives them a right to treat people. Am I on the wrong planet?

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:45 PM

societies and communities are overcrowded with individuals desparate to feel significant. Those individuals can either...

1. Learn that communities cannot accomodate the selfish needs of the solipisitc and adjust accordingly.
2. Try to stand out and gain significance by doing good -- but this is so very hard, and lacks the promise of attention.
3. Be contrary. You'll usually stand out. Sadly, you'll be as unhappy as the phrases with which you find yourself forever starting conversations would imply.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:45 PM

Laughing something off and expressing rage are in a way alternatve forms of the same reaction - note the way we bare our teeth when we laugh. Like chimps in a rage.

Getting good and angry, when you feel entitled to feel that way, and are in a position to do something effective about it, can feel pretty good. (As opposed to getting cross and irritated and frustrated, which is a killer.)

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:21 PM

Yeah, great thread Jeri........Fuck you.

Spaw


PS......I think that as our society has "advanced" and we have turned over more things to be handled by our government, a corporation, or maybe just the guy next door, we have become more and more powerless and less in control of our own lives. We then seize upon anything that helps us to verify our worth and our existence and the quickest way into ourselves is through anger. It's getting worse and the younger generation is affected even more than we are.

There is also a feeling among most people that striking back is more fulfilling than laughing it off. We rarely stop and consider the end result we want to achieve but rather simply let the anger flow and strike back at the person who has "insulted" us. What's the point of that? Frankly, in the short term, it makes you feel good, but over the long haul nothing is gained or achieved. A yell out the window of your car was replaced by the finger which has now been replaced by a gun.

Anger can only be detrimental to us emotionally and physically, but we have it....it's ours.....it's in our control.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:17 PM

I've got to disagree Jeri.

I don't dispute that the "sue him" trend is more prelavent now as suggested by others but in my life on the Internet, I have seen no real changes in the time I have used Mudcat.

People have always had "buttons", some more easily pressed than those of others. I think it is also fair to suggest that some have more "buttons" to press than others.

I think it may be reasonable to suggest that the Internet has changed in usage over the years (before my time and after usenet) and that more and more people enter in to forums without the original objectives in mind and perhaps have their own objectives, e.g. these days, Mudcat can be looked upon as a political platform within the folk world, etc.

I think Mudcat has at last reacted sensibly to these differences but that can not change people. By that I mean some will always want to push there agenda whether or not it is appropriate. I'd suggest the reason for that is just because it's there to be used that way and people want thier own platforms to speak.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:13 PM

Sorting out the menaces in a test? I doubt if you could do it one hundred percent. But in England anyway the driving tests just checks on knowledge about the rules of the road, and ability to carry out a road test. You could be a homicidal maniac and pass, if you had the skills and the knowledge.

I think it should be possible to devise ways of determining things like a tendency to road rage, and some level of common sense. If the upshot was that a fair number of people couldn't get driving licences, that seems fair enough to me.

After all, not everyone gets to drive. There are a fair number of people who can't pass the present test, because they haven't got the ability to control a car safely, so they'd be a danger to themselves and others. People who can control their cars well enough, but who can't control themselves, would merely be in the same situation, for the same reason.

And if they got offended at that, well it's true enough, as has been said, you can't avoid offending people all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:13 PM

Several years ago I realized that blaming people who worked in my department was eating up a lot of time and generating a lot of bad feelings, which was then interfering with productivity. So I changed it and we decided to solve problems and not worry about blame.

Worked like a charm. Oh, sure, there were some problems, and when someone was identified as a source of problems I had to deal with them. But overall I found it to be a great idea.

Try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:59 PM

"In a free country you have the right to be offended anytime and any place by anything, but you do not have the right to be taken seriously."

Angus MacDonald

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:40 PM

I expect to see Running Man type shows soon....already half way there with this supposed wrestling.....and whatnot....

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:35 PM

Jeri, does your local PBS affiliate show BBC World News?

I'm with you, troll. All this stuff is getting a little bit ridiculous. I mean, on Fear Factor, they've eaten animal dongs. (they were cooked, BTW...)

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:25 PM

Any day now I expect to see a new show featuring gladitorial contests; not to the death you understand.
Not at first anyway.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: JenEllen
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:14 PM

Much agreed on the TV thing, Jeri. Have you heard of a show called SCARE TACTICS? Your mum would have been appalled. If I hadn't seen the ad for myself, I'd have never believed it. The premise is that 'friends' set up people to have the ever-living shit scared out of them. Not the typical "Boo!...Gotcha!... harharhar" stuff, the snippets they showed on the ad looked terrifying, with all of the prankees screaming, crying, or both. When did that become cool?

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:52 PM

I wish we got BBC TV here. I remember watching it during the Iran hostage thing and the failed rescue attempt, and the news seemed more balanced than what we were getting from the US.

Maybe it's not just being offended that's chic at the moment. Perhaps it's cruelty in general. I'm thinking of current TV shows in the US that embarrass, scare or insult people for entertainment. It's the modern equivalent of the colla...cole...that Roman thing with the lions and Christians and gladiators.

Anybody ever get flipped off by a driver of a car with one of those "random acts of kindness" bumper stickers?

As to Mudcat, yeah Elle. Everything here is in black and white, good or bad. Somebody we think might be foaming-at-the-mouth mad may really just be playing around. Someone else may seem like they're incredibly cruel or stupid or nuts, and they simply don't write well. Also, there isn't much forgiveness in this medium. You say something dumb, and it will linger in the database forever, even if it was just prompted by your mood and not your personality.

Again, maybe it's just that I'm more sensitive to this sort of thing than I have been in the past. I remember my mom, who died in '92, quit watching most TV except 'nice' shows because she couldn't stand everyone yelling at each other - especially on the sitcoms (she was a sitcom junkie). At that time, I didn't really think it was a big deal, but it made me think.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:37 PM

Don, is that like, some people would bitch if you hanged them with a new rope? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM

people have always been offended by something, whether it is the music & religion of the folks next door, or the body parts they choose to expose....

trouble is, it is so easy to SAY so now, and to compare notes and start lawsuits over it.

TV shows like Jerry Springer encourage airing of stupid little private nastiness, and stories about narrow-minded silliness have been filler for news programs for several decades...now the WWW allows anyone to mount a soapbox to complain and harangue.

...and all of this simply adds fuel to the fire, showcasing and heightening events that might have died down 50 years ago.

The world IS more complex and scary and and frustrating and contentious these days, because events happen, and get reported on and cause more 'happenings' at a rate that most of us are not capable of dealing with.
....We can't even count on what format our music will be recorded in next year, and we KNOW it will cost us money and time to change again.

"Life is a toil, and love is a trouble,
Beauty will fade and riches will flee.
Pleasures they dwindle, and prices they double,
And nothing is as I would wish it would be"

....and, as Albert's mother said after the lion ate him.."Someone must pay!"

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:25 PM

Seems to me everybody is ANGRY!!! Watching US TV talk shows people are always shouting, screaming..no considered debate. Is discussion dead? Same in the UK. I've never watched a soap in my life but I often catch the last minute or so before the next prog...and someone's always screaming in somebody's face.And now the people in the street are beginning to act like the actors on the screen because they think that's the way life has to be. last weeks "Question time" seemed to go the same way. It seems everybody goes from 0-10 with no numbers in between and it certainly has happened here on Mudcat since i started to join in...particularly about the war. Everybody has an opinion but it just doesn't seem, in general, as educated and reasoned as it once was.
Then I watch Fox news and realise it probably never will be again!
In Birmingham the BBC studios had a demo outside tonight protesting that the BBC was biased IN FAVOUR of the war. That balances the press allegations it's biased AGAINST.
I don't think the Brits realise what they have in the Beeb at times like this...they should watch Fox news and beware the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: JenEllen
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:13 PM

Yeah, you are right, Jeri. I always figured it was a case of self-centeredness coupled with a lack of manners. I don't know if it's just a 'human thing' but people (self included) have a really hard time in stepping back and realizing that it isn't always about them, that there might be others, complete strangers even, that would suffer for their actions. That self-centeredness might be conquerable, but when you pair it with unconscionably bad manners? When you lose that little voice that tells you to mind your p's and q's, bad things happen.

I fear for us humans, it's probably terminal. As a microcosm, Mudcat suffers because you can't SEE people, read body language and factor in a poke in the ribs unless someone takes the time to type it out (yawn). In the real world, it's scary as hell and you figure that same feeling has to transfer over to Mudcat, right?

Example: When I travel, it's usually out of the Seattle airport. Coming home is always a disaster, the parking garages spit you out on this open piece of tarmac where people have to jockey for position in lines at the payment turnstiles. I've actually seen people get out of their cars and attack other drivers. I figure that eventually I'll get out of the garage, I have to, right? --so I have no problem in letting people pull in in front of my car. You get one of two responses: first being the overly effusive hand-wavers who do everything short of licking the glass to tell you how grateful they are, and second being the people who staunchy refuse your offer. They know the only reason you are letting them pull in front of you is so that you can shoot them in the back of the head and steal their car.   If they do that, with a living, breathing human in front of them offering them assistance, what are they going to be like when they can't even see the person? It's always easier to assume the worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Beccy
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:58 PM

Troll- I want one of those bumper stickers... that's great.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:54 PM

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw a while back.
"Protect the easily offended. Ban everything."
Please forgive the thread creep. I hope it didn't offend anyone.
Kevin, a question, if you don't mind. How on earth would one go about screening prospective drivers to ensure that the requisite qualities are present? I'm not asking in an challenging manner. I'd truly like to know.

troll   ( G-d. How tedious.)

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:08 PM

Certainly I'd blame the drivers - but I'd also blame the system that all too often fails to screen out people who do not have the self control and other qualities needed to make them fit to use a potentially lethal vehicle.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:03 PM

Comedian Penn Gillette once made the comment that "there are people who could find something to be offended at by merely walking through the debris after an explosion in a Scrabble tile factory."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:44 PM

Nicely said, Kim! Kendall, blaming things on acts of God is another variant of the same shtick -- surely one most often chooses how to deal with snowstorms.

There is certainly, on the other side, those who use truth as a bludgeon, without any sense of consequences and I suppose as in most things there is a balance between being brutal and being overly-timid. Maybe the criteria should be whether the remark is true, necessary and helpful.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:22 PM

It seems like so many want to blame everyone else except themselves. If you get offended about everything, then no one will take you seriously when there is a valid reason to be offended. And let's be honest, sometimes there is - but we all have to choose our battles.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: kendall
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM

Oh, yeah?? As usual, Jeri is right on the money.
I get peeved myself sometimes, not that anyone would notice, but, when I see the news on TV, and hear a reporter say, that 14 car pile up and resulting injuries are being blamed on the snow storm, I just can't contain my "BULLSHIT, blame it on the assholes who can't drive. Do I need professional help?

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM

There's a difference between getting indignant because someone says something that might insult you yourself, and something that seems designed to hurt or diminish someone else, especially someone weaker or more vulnerable.

Here's a link to a song I wrote and posted on the Mudcat about this kind of thing - Poison in Jest:

If I'll call you what I choose, what's that got to do with you?
It's not my problem if the words appall you.
It's how I always speak when I'm talking to a freak,
and it doesn't really matter what I call you.
Yes, I'll speak to you direct, that's what you must expect -
No I never mess around with being "Politically Correct."

Which doesn't mean I don't get suspicious of this kind of thing often enough. It seems to me there are some people who use this kind of issue as a mechanism for exerting power; and there are some who pick out and even manufacture exaggerated examples of it as a way of undermining the whole notion that courtesy to other people requires that we take care what sort of words we use to refer to them and so forth.

And I'm talking about the wide world here, rather than the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:36 PM

Offense is an easy election, isn't it? You don't have to take any action, do anything effective, or resolve any difference in viewpoint, you don't even have to communicate -- just whine, one-way.

And what is amazing is how many people, instead of observing that person X has elected to be offended, have to jump in and start passing judgement on the issue without much minding where it came from, passing out decrees of goodness and badness as though they had some inside track on the Akashic Handbook of Trivial Karma (High Precision Edition -- Scores up to eight decimal points!(.

It reminds me of those exploratory games that small children play to learn how they relate to each other -- they list things in the world and state which ones they like and which ones they decide are "sucky", in an effort to draw up some sort of tribal map of allegiances. They cover everything from candy to colors to TV characters to shoe styles and kinds of socks and eyeglasses. But I had always imagined that people outgrew that game as they learned a bit more about how the world is stitched together.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:29 PM

It HAS become the fashion of the day Jeri. There are dozens of reasons I guess, but laughing at something that pokes fun at YOU, just seems to be a reaction of the distant past.

I guess I'm one of those Mudcatters who often thinks that a bit of a joke can distract a couple of people who are bent on out 'Blue clickeying' each other, but it certainly doesn't have the same impact it had four years ago. My guess is that they're just as combative in 'real life', and that's seriously bad for the heart.

I saw something about an hour ago that was simply pathetic in it's predictability. We were caught in a traffic jam, with a streetcar about five cars ahead of us. It wanted to turn left, but the oncoming traffic was blocking the intersection. Heather and I were talking so I wasn't watching closely, until..... a woman behind us, got out of her car and knocked on the window of a double-parked car on the other side that was INADVERTANTLY (they were waiting for grandma or something) causing the whole Jam.

"He's gonna get mad, and tell her to fuck off", I said....and sadly that's exactly what happened. After she'd shrugged her shoulders and went back to her car, the guy looked around and realized he'd only have to move two feet to free up the traffic. He did.

That's a little different than the situations you probably had in mind Jeri, but it was just one more human being simply WAITING to be offended.

Cheers....GREAT thread.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:24 PM

uh, Jeri...BAA is spelled BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA or ABAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:21 PM

All of which may account for the plethora of lawyers and law suits.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: MMario
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:21 PM

yup - I think you're right - it's a growinbg phenomenon - encouraged by the "sue 'em" mentality that is likewise becoming more prevalant - and the "me,me,me" attitude that likewise become more prevalent as the baby boomer generation gets older.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: PeteBoom
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:18 PM

I'm offended that you'd suggest this, Jeri!

(Who said I was original? ;-)

Actually, I think its part of the "victim mentality." Something BAD happens, so someone MUST be to blame.

The possibility that the healthy looking tree limb might break in a storm means that I'm to blame if it comes down on the fence.

The chance that the fellow whose car slides into mine on icey pavement - sending me into someone else, is the fault of him (for driving in winter) and me (likewise) the tire manufacturers on our respective cars, the manufacturers of our respective cars, the contractor who put down the pavement, the city for not taking decisive action to deal with the ice and the local weather forecasters for not giving precise enough information or faulty information.

Everyone is dead serious about so much, they've forgotten that sometimes accidents happen and if you can't laugh at yourself, your fragile ego is right properly screwed up. There is no reason to take yourself so bloody seriously. Really.

Cheers -

Pete

Subject: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:04 PM

I mentioned this in another thread. It just seems that there's a growing phenomenon - people who enjoy being pissed off about damned near anything. Perhaps it started a few decades ago with expository journalism and gained ground with TV 'talk' shows that have the audience shouting at guests.

It's growing here at Mudcat, too. I mean, start a thread on "Baa, Baa Black Sheep," and some folks will get pissed off about singling out a black sheep, others will say 'sheep' isn't a polite term, still others will be indignant about the questioner apparently condoning the exploitation of sheep, or say they're offended by wool clothing, someone will insist "baa" is spelled wrong and should be in quotes, someone will call the questioner a troll...
...and people will invariably pick one of the original indignancies to pursue and the original subject will be forgotten. Often, the humanity of the other people involved will be as well.

T'm not talking specifically about Mudcat - we're just a microcosm. It seems to be pretty easy to accidentally start an argument just about anywhere. Some individuals are always going to look for things they can be offended by. It just seems to me that being angry is becoming the fashion of the day. Am I wrong?
(Points for lack of originality deducted if you post to say you're offended.)