BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

"No, the problem is that Israel, very much like the U.S. from wch it learned the stance, considers itself generally "EXEMPT" from the rules that govern the rest of the world. "

Unlike it's law abiding neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:34 AM

No, the problem is that Israel, very much like the U.S. from wch it learned the stance, considers itself generally "EXEMPT" from the rules that govern the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM

Carol, from Emma's post "Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel COULD apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, some legal experts argue"

Most or all of those on board were intensely partisan against the Israelis. They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets? They were witness to terrifying violence. I do not find their testimony reliable.

Remember that Israelis have stopped ships on many previous occasions, and stopped other vessels that night.
All without violence.
It is possible to abseil with a weapon in hand. I suspect that the soldiers were not expecting a fight and sought not to appear provacative, otherwise I simply can not believe that Israeli commandos could be so readily overcome by people armed only with clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:32 AM

"It seems to be a question of interpretation and not a clear cut case of legal or illegal."


And therein lies the problem Keith

Opinio Juris is a forum for informed discussion and lively debate about international law and international relations. It was founded by Chris Borgen, a law professor at St. John's University Law School, who started the site with Peggy McGuinness of the University of Missouri Law School and Julian Ku of Hofstra Law School

Here Prof Kevin Jon Heller is currently a Senior Lecturer at Melbourne Law School admits he is confused



Israel's defense of the blockade thus appears to create a serious dilemma for it. Insofar as Israel insists that it is not currently occupying Gaza, it cannot plausibly claim that it is involved in an international armed conflict (IAC),
with Hamas.
And if it is not currently involved in an IAC with Hamas, it is difficult to see how it can legally justify the blockade of Gaza.
Its blockade of Gaza, therefore, seems to depend on its willingness to concede that it is occupying Gaza and is thus in an IAC with Hamas.
But Israel does not want to do that, because it would then be bound by the very restrictive rules of belligerent occupation in the Fourth Geneva Convention **


There is, however, another possibility: that Israel's blockade of Gaza is not a "belligerent blockade" at all, but is instead something akin to a "pacific blockade," defined by the Dictionary of International Law as "a form of coercive measure short of war, whereby a state (or group of states) bars access to the coast of a state or part of it in order to prevent entry and exit of ships of the state under blockade."
I say "akin to" a pacific blockade, because — as the definition indicates — such blockades assume that the blockaded entity is a state, not a non-state actor.

Even if Israel's blockade of Gaza would analogically qualify as a pacific blockade, however, it would still be of questionable legality: pacific blockades are only legal with the approval of the Security Council, according to the Dictionary of International Law, and the Security Council has never approved the blockade of Gaza"

full article

** it is claimed by many - including the Government of Canada that -

"This construction (the 'seraration barrier')is contrary to international law under the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Canada not only opposes Israel's construction of a barrier extending into the occupied territories, but also expropriations and the demolition of houses and economic infrastructure carried out for this purpose."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

Keith, please show me the specific wording in international maritime law that applies to this situation and that would make the blockade on Gaza legal.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:24 AM

Keith, considering the fact that all of the testimonies of the flotilla members who were in visual range say the same thing - that the government of Israel opened fire first, the fact that in what is quite clearly a very fearful and worried state, the correspondents report wounded people, and the fact that we can prove that everything else Israel has said about what happened is a lie, there is no credible evidence that the Israelis were acting in self-defence, and all of the evidence shows that they attacked first.

And also the fact that the government of Israel won't release all of the footage and still shots that the people on the flotilla took of the events, and in fact, they dumped a lot of it overboard. If Israel had nothing to hide, it wouldn't have any problem with letting people see that material. That, alone, is proof enough of the Israelis guilt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM

Thanks Emma.
It seems to be a question of interpretation and not a clear cut case of legal or illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM

Keith, I'm saying it is how Israel interprets the law

According to a legally recognised document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea" under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

One view is that "On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal,"

Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign.
Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.

There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.

HOWEVER even the same lawyers that argue the sea blockade can be legally justified also say

"strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters"

The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel.
The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel COULD apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, some legal experts argue.

HOWEVER, "If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College


It is reported today that

"The Israeli military will conduct its own investigation of the May 31 commando raid on a flotilla of ships trying to breach its blockade of the Gaza Strip, which left nine pro-Palestinian activists from Turkey dead."

Netanyahu said he hasn't agreed to a proposal by United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon for an international investigation of the incident.
Israel refused to participate in a UN report on the 2008 Gaza war

Benny Begin, a minister without portfolio, said on Israel Radio
"The questions that need to be examined are whether the naval blockade was imposed according to international law, and was the way it was enforced on May 31 according to that law in all its interpretations,"

HOWEVER, as can be seen from the uncompromising statement from the Israel Ministry of foreign Affairs posted 08 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM it has already been stated by Israel that the blockade and therefore any attack is absolutely justified in legal terms making an internal military investigation the whitewash many people fear, from previous such internal enquiries, it will be

There are many opinions about the legality of the blockade and the assault on a ship in International waters

Israel continues to dismiss all these interpretations as the products of

'numerous NGOs and "human rights groups" have issued harsh and one-sided condemnations of Israel's actions.
Many of these statements have been couched in the terminology of international law…….. these claims are legally incorrect or dubious.

They represent the continued exploitation of international law for political ends."

Yeah! Everyone's doing it - sigh

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:15 AM

Emma, I am sure you are right that the info is from a pro Israel site.
I posted it because it sounded authoratative on international law on blockades.
I am no expert myself.
Are you saying that it is factually incorrect?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:09 AM

Ed, as well as examining some of the reports presented here I have, wherever possible provided the sources of my quotes and some information about the political stance and background of the contribtors and what organization they may represent

When I quoted from The American Educational Trust I also provided the information that it was
'a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, D.C. by retired U.S. foreign service officers' and
'best known for publishing the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs ("The Washington Report")

Without going back over many posts, some of which are nothing less than personal attacks of anti semitism on some members, I think I might also have provided some additional summarized information from Wiki that -

'AET's founders included Edward Firth Henderson, the AET's first chairman, and a former British Ambassador to Qatar; Andrew Killgore, AET's first president, who was U.S. Ambassador to when he retired from theUnited States Foreign Service in 1980; and Richard Curtiss, AET's first executive director, who was chief inspector of the U.S. Information Agency when he retired from the U.S. Foreign Service in 1980.'

or that

'AET's Foreign Policy Committee has included former U.S. ambassadors, government officials, and members of the United States Congress, including the late Democratic Senator J. William Fulbright, and Republican Senator Charles Percy, both former chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and members of its Board of Directors and advisory committees "receive no fees for their services."'

In this way you are at liberty to compare their perspective with that of the CanWest article and make your own judgement about which is likely to be most objective which was my intention.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM

Keith - we were talking about bias in reporting

Could I just point out for anyone that doesn't actually look at the source of your quote 'justifying' the attack on the flotilla it is on the same page as an appeal for money

"IF YOU WANT TO SUPPORT OUR WORK, PLEASE CONSIDER MAKING A DONATION.

YOUR DONATION WILL ALSO HELP US IN OUR ABILITY TO SUPPORT A PRO-ISRAEL LOBBY"

well no doubt about any bias there?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:53 AM

Here's Mankell's piece, at last.

Mankell's flotilla diary

And that law suggests it is made up by those with the guns to justify anything they do. Such as sinking the Rainbow Warrior, torpedoing South Korean ships, sabotaging ships on their way to Cyprus, whatever. If it has any validity, surely it was devised to deal with gun running and suchlike aggressive behaviour, not prefabs, coriander and butter.

If the law is on the side of the Israelis in this, then Mr Bumble was right. It needs reworking for the modern world. It can't be left to just one state to declare that it applies in any particular case.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM

"Of course the media are writing from a particular bias - however some are much more upfront about this than others"

If so, what about the bias of the American Educational Trust, and The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:48 AM

As noted, that was merely one example....(of course). Those seeking a broad perspective to frame opinions openly consider many sources and perspectives. Others, even those that may be intelligant in many other aspects of life, refer to limited and biased sources to reinforce their current opinions (not to be confused with facts). A useful tool to recognise this type of person is the tactic of attacking (attempting to silence or discredit) those who see an issue differently, those open to debate, and those who are not limited to narrow thinking or opinion on any issue.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM

People keep on asserting that the blockade on Gaza was put in place because of rocket attacks on Israel. That is not true. It was imposed in 2007 when Hamas, having won democratic elections, took over control of Gaza after a conflict with Al Fatah, which, having lost the election, refused to relinquish power. Al Fatah held on to power in the West Bank, with backing from Israel, the USA and the EU and others.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM

I do not know the legal position, but this person thinks he does.
1. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea.

2. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.

3. A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states.

4. The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.

5. In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.

6. Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.

7. Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.

8. A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

9. Here we should note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.

10. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel's intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.
http://www.crethiplethi.com/the-gaza-flotilla-and-the-legal-maritime-blockade-of-gaza/israel/2010/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:43 AM

Here's an audio version.

Mankell audio

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:41 AM

Sorry about the link - it isn't to Mankell's own pice but an interview with him. I'll chase up his own piece.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:40 AM

Ed. of course the media are writing from a particular bias - however some are much more upfront about this than others

Certainly The Guardian has never disguised its political allegiance in supporting 'progressive' policies in the UK and the Telegraph has traditionally been referred to as the 'Tory graph'

I believe I was the poster who drew attention to the unabashedly pro Israeli policy of the CanWest empire because an item from that news source was presented as an objective statement of factual news reporting

I also plead 'guilty' of presenting another opposing perspective as I believe people are frequently fed a single political outlook and presentation of international situations by the prevailing media of their country and I have an endangered 'liberal' belief in hearing both sides and making your own judgement


I love the first line of the opening paragraph from the Torygraph however

"Having cheap allegations of racism thrown at you in order to close down the debate can be very damaging."

Kinda sums up a lot of the calculated use of fabricated charges of anti Semitism against posters on this thread to discredit and divert from the reality of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

(p.s. Ed West also has some strong views on abortion and immigration of Islamic workers into Europe) which I personally disagree with as well.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM

Sorry, but the Telegraph is in no position to accuse the Guardian of bias. The Guardian prints pieces from many sources, and many political positions. Any one piece may show bias, and the paper has a particular political position, but the Telegraph has as well, and less of a custom of informing its readers of opposing views. When a source accuses the Guardian of bias, look very carefully at it. The Guardian is one of very, very few papers in the UK which is not determinedly right-wing or in the grip of owners with personal axes to grind.

Meanwhile, here is a link to Henning Mankell's account of the events on the high seas and their aftermath.

Henning Mankell on the flotilla

Our intelligent members will be able to take account of any way in which this differs from their own bias.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM

There are many web articles alleging bias (on many topics) in the Guardian, This is just one example:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100017075/the-guardian-may-not-be-anti-semitic-but-it-is-biased-and-hypocritical/

There was an earlier allegation that a Canadian publication chain (currently owned by a rich Jewish family, but up for sale) is biased. I asked for the sources. A poster made reference to such allegations as "the American Educational Trust, (publishes The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs) as the proof. A Google check of this organization and publication shows a large number of claims of bias, and alleges links by some of it's members to to sketchy causes and other organizations....that seriously questions whether these two are themselves "unbiased source of information" on bias in other publications.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM

Some American Jewish people speak out about their 'jewish values'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:59 AM

"The relevant point is that they were murdered during the commission of an act of piracy on the high seas, a crime under international law no matter what excuse is offered".........

..... and while bringing much needed aid to rebuild basic structures of hospitals and schools, provided mobility and medicines for the injured etc banned from import by the Israeli government.


"Israel's Gaza blockade targets Hamas while citizens suffer"

'Israel said the blockade was intended to hold Hamas – which it views as a terrorist group – "responsible and accountable" for rocket attacks on Israeli territory.

It is also intended to constrain Hamas's ability to rule in Gaza.

The blockade, preventing all exports from Gaza and confining imports to a limited supply of humanitarian goods, has failed to bring down Hamas but has heaped misery on Gaza's 1.5 million residents.

The UN humanitarian co-ordinator said last week that the formal economy in Gaza has "collapsed" and 60% of households were short of food.
According to UN statistics, around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid and 60% have no daily access to water.

The effect of the blockade was felt even more acutely in the aftermath of the invasion of the strip by Israeli forces in the winter of 2008-9, as materials needed for reconstruction were delayed or banned from entering Gaza.

A UN factfinding mission described the blockade as "collective punishment". .

From a simple straightforward report in The Guardian on 31 May 2010


If you really care for and want to bring about peace and reconciliation and diminish the causes of revenge and resentment then please call for the end to this blockade condemned as illegal and immoral by voices of protest throughout the world and inside Israel itself.

In the name of sanity how can the ban on childrens toys coriander and sage constitute a security risk to a country armed with nuclear devices?
Did shoes and clothing constitute offensive weaponry for 2.5 years before having their status as a security threat recently removed?

The ban is perpetuating a situation in which over 90% of industrial establishments in Gaza are closed or are operating at less than 10% of capacity.
Does the fact that Israel prevents the entry of margarine in large containers designed for the production of foodstuffs in Gaza, while it allows the entry of margarine in small packages (made in Israel) promote the economy in Gaza?

Which ever way you look at this it is -

'Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM

BTW, 700......and 701

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM

""There have been comments to the effect that the Jewish state should be ended, there has been considerable digital ink spilled in a downright weird argument that the Jews in Israel are not racially Jews but they are committing genocide on the millions of Palestinians (who have gone on being Palestinian all this time). There has also been an implication that Jews might be more justified if they were willing to die off in larger numbers during the recent conflicts.

The crux of the matter is a genocidal intent to deny Jews their Palestinian rights and Palestinian origins. (The whiff of Juden Raus is rich through this thread because it seeks to deny Jews their time and place without allowing them any other time or place. Without the extremists who can't stomach synagogues (and churches) along with mosques in the Middle East, the many wars of the young State Of Israel would have been not so much.""

EGREGIOUS RUBBISH!

Before entering a debate, it is useful to consider the terms which relate to what you are discussing.

There is NO Jewish state. The state is Israel, and a proportion of its population follow the Jewish faith.


As long as those widely different terms are presented as synonymous, this discussion cannot reach any viable conclusions.

Look at the origins of the Jewish inhabitants of Israel.

They are German Jews, Polish Jews, Romanian Jews, Hungarian Jews, etc. etc.

The common factors are 1). Their faith is Judaism, and 2). They have taken Israeli Nationality by choice.

There is no Jewish race, as such.

Back on track, could somebody please explain how any of these sidetracking points have any bearing on Israels government sponsored piracy and murder?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM

""{I read several accounts of the autopsy reports and no person died of a single bullet to the back, or back of the head, execution style, as some claim. At least one person had a rear-entry wound, but had four more front-entry ones.}""

Re-read Emma B's post 07 Jun 10 11:58 AM.

That quotes a number of sources which give the lie to your assertion.

Besides which, it is immaterial how, exactly, they were killed. The relevant point is that they were murdered during the commission of an act of piracy on the high seas, a crime under international law no matter what excuse is offered.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM

They say people have been wounded.
We see no evidence.
They report "some kind of hemispheres" hitting the ship.
Not firing. Not grenades.
I suggest the boats were trying to get lines aboard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:41 AM

It wisnae me Mr, a big boy done it an' ran awa!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:13 AM

I should rephrase this...


Passengers were wounded before any Israelis were even aboard the ship. So the Israelis can't possibly have been acting in self-defense.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:10 AM

For the third time, here's the video with the proof that it was the Israelis who opened fire first, for those who couldn't be arsed to watch it the first two times it was posted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g


Once again, in this video, which is from the live feed, which I and many other people watched in its entirety while this was going down, we can see an English speaking reporter (and several Turkish and an Arab) reporting the fact that people on the ship have been wounded. A few minutes later, they report the arrival of a helicopter, and we can see the helicopter come into view and let down a rope. Then we see the Israelis leave the helicopter and absail down the rope. After that, they report the presence of a second helicopter.

Passengers were wounded before any Israelis were even aboard the ship. So they can't possibly have been acting in self-defense. And the witnesses say that the Israelis opened fire first. The video evidence shows that it was the Israelis who opened fire first. The passenger testimony is that the Israelis opened fire first. The wounds to the back suggest execution style killings, or killings of people who were trying to get away. Many people who were watching the live feed say that the Israelis attacked first. All of the evidence shows that it was the Israelis who were the attackers, and the people on the ship who were the defenders.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:52 PM

When Israelis and Palestinians can sit across from one another and not see a Jew or not see an Arab. then this insane issue will be resolved.

I would put it differently. When the Palestinians can sit across a table from an Israeli and not see an oppressor, what is when this insane issue will be resolved.

Palestinians have no problem with Jews. They are very welcoming to Jews who come among them as equals. The people they have a problem with are those who come among them in order to subjugate them and clear them from the land. We know this because there are many Jews among them already, as equals, and the Palestinians call these Jews their cousins and hold them in very high regard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:48 PM

I don't have time right now to read through all of the posts that have appeared since my last post, but I did see a couple. I don't know if this has already been answered, but just in case...

The proof that the Israelis opened fire first is in the video I posted earlier, which is from the live feed that was coming from the ship as the attack was in progress (which I was actually watching at the time, and I saw all of what we see in the video while it was happening), in which we seen and hear a correspondent reporting the fact that there are already wounded people on board the ship before we see the helicopters appear and then let down the ropes. A few minutes after he reports the wounded people, we see the helicopter appear and lower down a rope on which the Israelis absail down to the ship.

The report of wounded people prior to any of the Israelis landing on the ship is proof that the Israelis opened fire first.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:29 PM

"Ahmed Luqman was shot twice during the raid and lost so much blood he nearly died. His condition meant he was one of the last activists deported from Israel.

He is now in an Istanbul hospital, from where he gave an interview to the ABC.

Mr Luqman said he was on the back deck of the flotilla flagship the Mavi Marmara, running to get inside, when he saw a laser sight settle on his leg.

Then he was down.

'I obviously knew that I'd been shot when I could see a bullet on the floor and a puddle of blood,' he said.

'Blood just pissing out of my leg, from two holes. You put two and two together, and it looks like you've been shot.'

The first bullet tore through his leg, partially severing his femoral artery. Another shot hit near his knee.

Israel says its troops were justified in opening fire after being attacked by a small band of violent activists, but Mr Luqman says that is simply fiction.

'None of us know anything about fighting and none of us intended to fight. [We're] peaceful people,' he said.

He denied any of the activists were looking for a confrontation and said some simply responded defensively when the Israelis opened fire.

'Me for one, I'm not part of that. I was just trying to get into the cabin and [was] just shot, like most of the other people who were just shot for nothing,' he said.

As bad as the assault was, the aftermath, says Mr Luqman, was worse.

'I've just been left there to lay down on the ground and just friggin' bleed, and I can't believe it,' he said.

Many of the soldiers that came up, picked up my passport because it was a different colour, looked at it, chucked it on the ground next to me and said, 'Ah, you're Australian'.'

Mr Luqman says Israeli soldiers refused him any sort of medical attention.

'They made me walk, without a stretcher, and climb all the stairs on my own without any assistance, and I passed out like three or four times just getting up the stairs on my own,' he said.

Mr Luqman's wife Jerry was with him. The nursing student helped keep him alive as his blood drained out.

Later, as other activists were deported, she chose to remain in detention in Israel to stay with her husband. She says the harsh treatment did not end on the ship.

'Their treatment of us was just completely unacceptable. I've never met anyone whose heart has become so hard and so black in my life,' she said."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/07/2919698.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:14 PM

It certainly won't be in our lifetime bobad. Sad to say.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:09 PM

biLL, I agree with you 100% and I think humanity is evolving in that direction but we won't see it in our lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM

In case you are wondering where I stand in all of this ... I stated it in an earlier post, and I'll restate.

"The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace."

Then, and only then can humanity, and peace move forward.

When Israelis and Palestinians can sit across from one another and not see a Jew or not see an Arab. then this insane issue will be resolved.

Anger, and revenge, fear, mistrust will take us nowhere. It only fuels the flames of violence.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:54 PM

If the shoe fits.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM

mousey, so is name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM

I guess i am becoming a anti semetic.I really think so by all the definitions i#v come across on this thred.Who dictates that judgement .Lox
Ignorent yes i am as my spelling will attest to. I have this rage inside that wants to stop this sensless killing .As a relgion well thats your trip.But when you say Israel is a Jewish State then it is a Jewish problem is it not.I don#t think i hate Jews but i am at the point of trying to understand what the heck is going on and the more i invesigate what or why all this is taking place ,it ends up with the word jew in it.Now if i was to boycott Israel products and services,what do they have other than oranges.And when i look at their beautiful orange groves by google earth i see they are the only green landscape in the middle east.Why,because they diverted water from the palistine land,not muslum but palastanie land.God i wish i could work the spell check.,,If they are such a powerful State where do they get the money. The indians have as much right to have their land back .No religion should pretend to own land and continue to brain wash their kids in beliving that. The bible i quote from a Jewish Friend and yes i still have a few jewish friends was bad journalism.So i guess i am anti semetic , i am anti war also. And it is the ignorant and uneducated like myself that join your armies but not create them.To fight and be killed for these rediclous ideals,for the soilder is young brainwashed and needs a job or meal which govt does not provide in trainings or education. I really think i am becoming antisemetic .What next..Rename the animals Adam.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM

That tactic is old.

The tactic of pointing out nobody actually said that and therefore you are lying? Yes that is a very old tactic. Goes back as far as logic. And calling it a "tactic" doesn't mean what he said isn't true. You're a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM

Recent DNA studies shown that the closest relatives the Jews have are the Kurds and the Armenians.

For the government of Turkey to get involved in genocide against the Jews, well, that just looks like part of a very long tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM

So once more the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the plight of the people has been obfuscated by false fabricated charges of anti Semitism and self-hating Jews - for shame!

Well you can defriend me on Facebook and slander me on mudcat but there are too many voices raised in protest to be silenced

I stand proudly by everything I have said and defy anyone to find any trace of racism of any kind in my posts

I financially supported the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee back in the 60s
I was an active member of the anti -Apartheid movement in the UK
I have stood up and been counted (and physically threatened) at protests against the BNP and their equal hatred of Jews and Muslims in the last decade
I am a member of an organization seeking to bring together Jewish and Palestinian youth in cultural activities

As Kurt Cobain said
"I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not."

So slander me as an anti-semite here, defriend me on Facebook but you will not drown the voices demanding compassion and justice this time!

Goodnight and may your god forgive you

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM

Where are the cries against the genocide of Kurds in Turkey?

http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=13491

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM

""the view ... that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread."

I share this view with bobad.

I am actually somewhat shocked and disturbed (in fact very disturbed) on some of the posts in this thread. I fear they are more than just exaggerated emotions, but true calculated sentiments bubbling to the surface.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

Well said Robo, the thread absolutely reeks of that sentiment in spite of Lox's challenge to show someone using those exact words. That tactic is old.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM

The very title of this thread bears out Bobad's point. This was certainly a tragedy, but it was NO Israeli atrocity. Pretty much the reverse if you consider the planning to force a confrontation on the Turkish ship by Turkish extremists.

There have been comments to the effect that the Jewish state should be ended, there has been considerable digital ink spilled in a downright weird argument that the Jews in Israel are not racially Jews but they are committing genocide on the millions of Palestinians (who have gone on being Palestinian all this time). There has also been an implication that Jews might be more justified if they were willing to die off in larger numbers during the recent conflicts.

The crux of the matter is a genocidal intent to deny Jews their Palestinian rights and Palestinian origins. (The whiff of Juden Raus is rich through this thread because it seeks to deny Jews their time and place without allowing them any other time or place. Without the extremists who can't stomach synagogues (and churches) along with mosques in the Middle East, the many wars of the young State Of Israel would have been not so much.

Bobad's remarks are well taken.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:20 PM

"the view ... that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread."

Can you state who shares this view and can you provide a quote, link or any other evidence to support your accusation?

Without any such clarification and corroboration, your comment stands as a barefaced lie.

Are you a Liar Bobad or can you support your statement as requested?

Its a black and white situation.

I await your answer with curiosity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

"... is this question of Helen Thomas relevant to this thread?"

I would think that it is in that the view she espouses, that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread. This idea is offensive to many people and is considered to be antisemitic as well.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

"The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace."

Right on biLL!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:56 PM

"see that the world has moved on"

have we??

We seem to be digging up all the muck from history to argue and fight about.

All sides are guilty of this.

The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace.

biLL