BS: Does Being Dark Matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM

Hi,

I did intend "thought" and not "though".

I can see as I read it back that for the purposes of fluency "though" would have scanned nicely, but I'm afraid it would have made a nonsense of my post.

For the record, the telescope I refer to represents my own humble but sincere perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 11:20 PM

Azizi - Yes, I can see that it is a very special name. I think Wesley Clark probably got eaten up in the money hunt that has become so important in running for office in America. One has to compromise one's integrity to such an extent to get elected, there doesn't seem to be much left of the candidate once he/she gets elected.

                  There's really something wrong with all of that, and there must be a solution.

                  By the way, I finally figured out what you were trying to say about the text books in Washinton DC.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:39 PM

Just for the heck of it, I decided to google the name Makeda and found out that there is a person by that name who posts on the Daily Kos blog, as per this clip which I didn't open:

"Daily Kos: We're onto something; let's not let it get away from us...by Makeda on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 09:55:41 PM PDT. [ Parent ] ...... and on to Mark Warner, Wesley Clark, and two governors, Tom Vilsack of Iowa and Bill ..."

-snip-

Sometimes I post links to that political blog with comments I make about political subjects on Mudcat. However, I have never been a member of Daily Kos. But I do lurk there a lot.

I hope the Makeda from Daily Kos wears that name well.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:32 PM

Hehehehehehe.... good oh eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:29 PM

OOPS!

I meant "Democratic" instead of "Femocratic"

Still, having a Femocratic political party might not be a bad idea.

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:25 PM

Riginslinger,
if by your 16 Aug 07 - 05:34 PM comment you are asking which blog did I use the Internet name Makeda*, it was on the old Wesley Clark For President blog. That blog ended abruptly when General Clark withdrew from the 2004 Femocratic primary. I was devastated by Gen. Clark's withdrawal, because I felt {and still feel] that he would have made a great United States president. I was also devastated because I had become a regular poster to that blog, and when that blog closed down, I abruptly lost connection with many people who I had come to know and admire.

Because I was homeless [having faced the dissolution of my "Internet family", and because for some reason I had kept the URL for Mudcat after visiting here one time in 2002, I returned to Mudcat in 2004 and have been here ever since.

Fwiw, the first time I visited Mudcat-thanks to a Mudcat member visiting the website where I provided the content and a friend did the technical Internet thingies, I ddn't "get" what this site was all about. For instance, I was so Internet unsavvy that I didn't know what a "thread" was, and that you had to click on the title to read the discussion.

Times change. And now I even know how to post comments with a change of font. Well...maybe I should say I'm learning how to post comments using another font, since I'm not yet totality confident that I've "got" that process. But at least I'm tryin.


*By the way I pronounce Makeda, mah-KAY-dah.

Part of the reason why I dropped that name and went back to using my "real" name is that it occurred to me that some people might be pronouncing Makeda as make dah.

Besides, I like the sound and the meaning of the name Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:48 PM

Yes Azizi, dark matters and you are very visible to me.

Thought * you might fancy a look through a different telescope.
-GUEST,lox

Although I'm aware that there's some psychological or sociological theory that says that a person's perception is colored by her or his self **, one of the things that I like best about Mudcat is that this forum provides opportunities to learn how people from different cultures "live, move, and have their being". I mean, after all, I've got a Sagittarius sun, mercury, and Jupiter, and my moon is in Aquarius. So being interested in different cultures is a core part of my astrological makeup. ***

That said, I still stand by my statement that I shared in the first post of this thread that "Sometimes I reflect on how Mudcat thread conversations would be different if more people of color posted here or if these conversations were taking place on either a majority Black forum or a forum that had many more Black people and other people of color."

Of course, it stands to reason that no two conversations are ever the same regardless of whether they are conducted by the same people-and whether they are held by people from the same racial, ethnic, and cultural background. {And that's why I don't mind threads whose subject is the same as a previously started thread/s. But it's helpful when links to the previous threads are included].

However, I was speculating that if Mudcat were more racially and ethnically diverse, not only might different subjects be introduced, but the conversations about the same subjects might be somewhat or significantly different since more of the participants [hopefully] would include reflections or examples from their varied experiences as people of color.

For instance, it would have been [would be] interesting to see whether and how having more Black people, and/or more other people of color posting on these threads would have impacted the discussion of the thread's topic:

thread.cfm?threadid=103194
USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity
['nuff said]

thread.cfm?threadid=23200
Jacomo finane? What does that mean?

[It would have been great if some Mardi Gras Indians or some other Black people from New Orleans or elsewhere who know that culture had posted [would post] on that thread]


* perhaps lox meant "though" and not "thought" ??

** or whatever field of study this theory {whose name I can't recall} comes from

*** Here's a link to a wikipedia article on zodiac signs for those who are interested in learning about that subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_sign

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:34 PM

"..."Makeda" was the Internet name that I used on another blog when I first started posting online."

                Makes me want to research Azizi.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 04:36 PM

I see exactly what colour people are.

It's impossible not to if you have good eyesight.

It doesn't affect my ability to make a connection with them, and I make my judgements about people based on the content of their character and not their pigmentation.

Yes dark matters. In your model of a universe containing dark and light matter, in which you have defined those terms to mean dark and light skinned people, all matter matters, just as it does in astronomy.

I haven't been to America, but I have spent time in Africa and there is a sparkling universe of dark matter there that filled my every night with warmth, that despite there being no electricity and the dark matter being invisible to the naked eye.

Yes Azizi, dark matters and you are very visible to me.

Thought you might fancy a look through a different telescope.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM

Well, alright, now! Snail is a winner!!!

And-true confession- I really don't think I was Makeda in another life. But "Makeda" was the Internet name that I used on another blog when I first started posting online.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 01:42 PM

Riginslinger

Sorry, I'm drawing a blank

C'mon. It';s not that difficult to find Makeda.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 12:25 PM

"However, I used to be called Makeda."

      "I should also have said that another name for my reincarnated self is Bilqis."


                  Sorry, I'm drawing a blank, but there are a number of things for which I'm not terribly well informed.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM

Azizi-

Are you sure you do not mean Masaya?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:27 AM

Azizi

Can you guess who I was?

If you had broached a matter
That might the learned please,
You had before the sun had thrown
Our shadows on the ground
Discovered that my thoughts, not it,
Are but a narrow pound.'

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:00 PM

I should also have said that another name for my reincarnated self is Bilqis.

[That's another hint to help you figure out who I was}.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:54 PM

True dat. And unfortunately, at least that time, he spoke the truth.

But-just for the record-I am NOT the reincarnated Joseph Goebbels.

However, I used to be called Makeda.

Can you guess who I was?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:00 PM

"Here's a new African proverb: "If you repeat something often enough, people will often start repeating it"]."


                            I think Joseph Goebbels said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 12:48 PM

when light and dark are the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same_color_illusion



our "green earth"
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070715.html



clouds caome out of the sky and just stand there
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070814.html

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 08:44 AM

Answering the question "Does being dark matter?" necessarily involves layers of interpretations and re-interpretations. It's the short-cuts that often get "us" in trouble, or those we love.

As someone who has moved from rural coastal Maine to three years of Peace Corps work in Ethiopia, to assisting with an overly ambitious inner-city Detroit geography project coordinated by Black high school students, to coordinating an overly ambitious anti-mortgage redlining campaign, I've got lots of experience to process. I may try a few more stories, but the stories are never the full story.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 02:46 AM

I don't know...it seems to have been so put out there by others. But maybe, and if so, it is descpicable...?? And I hope the day will come when everyone is free to think and speak and vote as they please and not having to confirm to stereotypes..and some are not healthy...I love watching Professor Amos on TV hawking his drain cleaners because he is so unsophisticated and just free to be who he is...and the hemorrhoid commercial where the husband is embarrassed about it...where there is no pressure to be anything other than honest and decent. This pressure to conform too much is hurting many many people, especially youth...Michele Obama told them to lay off on that question..that it was confusing the nation's children.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 02:28 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to keep the italic font function on.

I'm still trying to get the hang of using those change the font function. Hopefully, things won't get worse before they get better.

[it was a matter of the i before the /, instead of after - (a clone)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 02:25 AM

"Is Barak black enough?" What an insulting question to everyone..to all African Americans (even as they are doing the asking often), and especially to biracial or multiracial people -mg


mg, in my opinion, many of the African Americans asking that question-I'm not one, and I don't know any who have- are either minions of a contingent whose aim is to "divide" the Black vote so that they can continue ruling or people who are just echoing what they hear without thinking about what they hear.

[Here's a new African proverb: "If you repeat something often enough, people will often start repeating it"].

Other people can see the benefit in using Black people's internal conflicts about skin color preferences & prejudices to minimize potentially huge Black support for Obama. In his primary races, and if he becomes the Democratic candidate for president, Barak Obama's huge support from Black people is likely to come not only because he's a brotha [I mean Clarence Thomas is a brotha & Condi Rice is a sista, but very few African Americans support them. Obama's support from Black people will come because of his policies and his persona as a likeable, intelligent, strong man. Also, Black people-and I dare say other people- will also consciously or unconsciously take into consideration the persona of his African American wife [who comes across as a African American wife who comes across as intelligent, personable, and strong], and the Kennedyish image of these attractive parents with their attractive young children}.

People familiar with Marcus Garvey's Black activism in the 1920s, may equate the question "Is he a race person?" with today's question "Is he black enough?". However, imo, these questions are not the same.

Garveyites {and others} advocated that all Black should work to change the dire situation experienced by Black people {in particular, but certainly these efforts benefitted others} with regard to political, economic, social, educational, health care, juvenile justice and other conditions. Also "art" was not supposed to be "just for art's sake" {meaning just for aesthetic appreciation or enjoyment}. Instead art was supposed to be a means to help "raise the race".

"Being a "race man" {or "race woman", though you don't find the term "race woman" as much as you find its masculine version} was a descriptor of those Black people who helped raise the race. This referent was used by the individual themselves as well as by others in reference to them. Sometimes "race man" was used pridefully by others, and sometimes not. But it was always used pridefully by those who referred to themselves by that term.

* Probably because of the issues of woman's rights & woman's role, the term "race woman" is not found in print as often as the term "race man".

"Raising The Race" is sometimes used nowadays as the title or theme for professional journals or seminars.
Click here to see a contemporary example of the use of that term:

http://www.blackhistory4schools.com/2007/02/preparing_to_ra.html

However, the term "race man" or "race woman" in the context that it was used during Marcus Garvey's time-is rarely if ever used today by African Americans. Instead some Black Americans use the term "conscious" Black people to describe those people who work for the betterment of the race. Among "conscious" Black people, the referent "negro" [with lower case or upper case first letter] is sometimes also used in print and in verbal conversation to refer to those people who work, speak, or act in such ways that bring harm to Black people as a race.

Imo, the term "afro-centric" as a descriptor of Black people is not the same now-if it ever was the same-as being a "conscious" Black person. A conscious Black person may or may not be afro-centric, in the cultural sense that I and some others use that term. In other words, an "afrocentric" may be a person who loves African drums, African dance, African decor, and other indices of Black culture. That person may or may not consciously be working to raise the race.

For centuries, African Americans have had & continue to have real problems with color consciousness {usually but not always presenting as preferences within the race for light skin rather than dark skin people}. However, some of the most prominent Black leaders have been and continue to be people of mixed race {historically I will cite Frederick Douglass, W.E.B DuBois, and Booker T. Washington.

My point is that Black people didn't ask were these men who had Black/White ancestryreally Black because of their White ancestry. They asked would the positions that these men advocated help to improve the conditions of African Americans as a whole.

I believe that those people who framed the "Is Obama black enough" question want to tap into Black people's unresolved conflict about skin color preference. I think they want to ask us to question whether Obama really African American. But those people who want Black people to argue among themselves about whether Obama's skin color is dark enough forget one thing-or want others to forget-that there are a lots of Black people whose skin is faaar lighter than Obamas. And many of these people have two Black birth parents.

The people-Black, or non-Black who are mouthing this "Is Obama black enough" question want to distract people from considering the positions that Barak Obama is advocating {and I say this as one who has not decided who I will vote for in the Democratic primary}.

Even a few 100 or thousands votes that can be pealed away from Obama will be beneficial to Republicans. And that, my friends, is why this "Is Obama black enough?" question is being asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:41 PM

Yeah, that's for dang sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:25 PM

I think we are witnessing the unthinkable now in politics when they are asking "Is Barak black enough?" What an insulting question to everyone..to all African Americans (even as they are doing the asking often), and especially to biracial or multiracial people. He is black enough, he is white enough. Everyone is enough of whatever they are and people should find other things to vote or not vote for him other than that stupid question. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 10:11 PM

Ditto what Little Hawk said. That was a GREAT story, Charley.

Thanks for sharing it!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 09:11 PM

Little Hawk-

We also did some research on the name "Jabo" and the best we came up with was that it was a nickname indicating the small gulf state town he came from. I never knew that his parents had named him "Willie Paul Nelson" until I saw photocopies of the letters documenting his case.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 08:31 PM

Quite a story, Charlie!

Jabo is an unusual name. The word "jabo" was also a German term for a fighter-bomber type of aircraft, but they would have pronounced it differently...as "yah-bo".

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:40 PM

Here's another long story, and I probably have several more, but this is one I helped research for my father's memorial service, and the story was a surprise to many friends and relations gathered there:

"My name is Stephen Williams and I am a resident of Robinhood (Maine). We pass through communities, look at the old homes and wonder about the lives and events that have unfolded there. I'm going to share one of these events involving Adolph with you.

My grandparents Albert and Bathena Deermont purchased our house in 1929 and became close friends with the Zorach and Ipcar families. My grandparents winter home was deep in the South on the Florida Alabama line in a little town called Chipley. Accompanying them on there summer visits would be a Black American named Willie Paul Campbell, known as Jabo to his friends and family. Now Jabo was a powerful man standing 6 foot 2 and weighing 280 lbs, which was in direct contrast to his gentile manner. Schooled by my grandmother in cooking, he was an excellent chef and helped in the raising of my mother.

A summer morning in our kitchen would find Jabo cooking up eggs and bacon. Several times a week would come the sound of the outside screen door slamming and clink of milk bottles as Adolph made his deliveries. A friendly greeting and a quick word about the day then both would return to their chores.

Neighborhood parties were big events with my Grandmother and Jabo going all out with the fine linens and silverware. Adolph and Jabo were always present during these parties adding their own brand of humor to the mix. Back then, Robinhood residents visited more with their immediate neighbors than we do today. Electricity would not arrive until after the War and the roads were unimproved making a trip to town a major undertaking.

World War 2 arrived and with it the draft. Jabo was inducted by the US Army and after some basic training was sent off to be an Army cook. Now, back in 1941 the American Armed Services were segregated, Blacks being given menial jobs such as cooks, truck driver's and laborers and segregation meant separate companies, messes and barracks.

Time always moves slowly for soldiers stationed far away from friends and family and segregation created few recreational opportunities for black soldiers. One Saturday night a party and dance was being held by another Black company, Jabo and members of his company crashed that party and the resulting riot resulted in Jabo and several members of his company being brought up on charges of "mutiny against colored military police and of assault with intent to murder". The accused were "tried jointly", found guilty and sentenced from 10 to 20 years. Jabo, on the other hand, was implicated as the ringleader and was found guilty of "causing and participating", the sentence handed down was death.

The news of the sentencing traveled fast. In Robinhood, Adolph launched efforts to correct this injustice. Employing friends and contacts including Eleanor Roosevelt, Adolph's and their efforts resulted in President Roosevelt commuting the sentence to a dishonorable discharge and confinement for 25 years. Further efforts after the end of World War 2 resulted in Jabo's early release.

Black Americans saw many injustices during the war years. While asked to lay down their life for their country Black American GI's were denied entrance to railway diners and watched while German POW's were brought in and fed. During the War Years other mutinies by Black sailors and GIs took place with charges and sentencing as unjust as Jabo's. Many a time having a caring and influential white man step forward and speak up were all that separated you from prison and death. In Jabo's case it was Adolph who recognized the injustice and took action.

Jabo returned to my Grandparents and to Robinhood. Time passed, during which my brother and I became the 2nd generation raised under the watchful eyes of Jabo. Morning routines returned with Jabo cooking up eggs and bacon and about that time would come the sound of the screen door slamming, clink of milk bottles and there was Adolph making his deliveries. Greetings would pass, next a word about the day and then each would return to their chores. I watched never aware of the events that had transpired between the two men.

Our family will always be indebted to Adolph for his efforts in helping to return a much loved member to our family.


As a footnote:

One of Eleanor Roosevelt greatest works was her effort to correct the social injustices that existed in this country. Efforts by citizens such as Adolph pointing out the existence of these injustices resulted in President Truman issuing Executive Orders 9980 and 9981, which spelled the beginning of the end of official segregation in government and the armed services.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:00 PM

Hand me a drumstick.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:57 PM

or wince at my typos.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:56 PM

LOL Cluin, hopefully I'll never forgot to laugh, despite the teasing.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:52 PM

Well there you go Bee, the social edicts of the dominant culture tend to prevail, even in isolation. And if things get way more foggy, the good red haired people of the Nova Scotia coast can at least consol themselves, that if the fishery further fails, thereby further limiting their access to the vitamin D in their fish oil, they can at least survive quite well by running about in what light remains, nude.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:42 PM

Q: How do you know when a redhead has had an orgasm?

A: She unties you.



Sorry, Metch. I couldn't resist ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bee
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:18 PM

By a chance of old and long isolated Irish and Prussian settlement, Metchosin, here on the foggiest (therefore posssibly the safest, UV-wise) coast of Nova Scotia, there live a plethora of redheads. It is possibly as common on this coast, among the old coastal families, as blond hair, though brunettes have the edge. I noticed this after living here a short time, because, as you say, in the general population red hair stands out. But here, and all down the coast to Canso, bullying a red head would get you pounded in a hurry, as there's lots of other redheads to get your back. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:20 PM

Does dark matter? Well perhaps global warming will settle it all. BG

As I am a member of the most rare, visible minority on earth, I feel I can speak with some authority on a few aspects of this matter too. The minority to which I belong, makes up only 1 to 4 percent of the entire world's population, depending on whose figures you wish to believe.

According to some sources, in a few generations, we will be an even less visible minority, than we are today and we will soon disappear, within the melting pot of human life because of more dominant genes within the world's populations.

I'm a redhead, perceived to be a fairly recent genetic mutation, in the grand scheme of human evolution, according to some current scientific thought. I exist only because of genetic drift.

In northern climates, the very fair skin associated with the mutant gene for red hair was thought to have been an advantage in preventing rickets, due to its ability to produce higher levels of Vitamin D at lower light levels. The fair skin is is also thought to be more adaptable to cold, (yeah, right, LOL). The red hair color was a resultant byproduct of this mutant gene and because this "byproduct" was of no genetic disadvantage, in some areas of world climate, red hair continues to persist.

Whether or not redheads ever existed in prehistory as something that could be considered a distinct racial group or collective is a matter open to speculation.

Myths regarding wild hordes of red headed warriors roaming the Asian steppes and harassing prehistoric Mediterranean cultures exist. Perhaps recent discoveries of occasional prehistoric burial sites on the steppes, with the possibility of genetic testing, now that the mutant red haired gene has been isolated, might eventually prove possible.

Or perhaps the recent scientific speculation that red hair is a remnant gene within the human gene pool courtesy of the Neanderthal, might one day be proved. Or pushing the envelope even further, perhaps I personally owe something to my fellow red headed primate, the orangutan. LOL      

Before you dismiss this as making light of more recent historical persecution of minority groups of humanity for their differences within a dominant culture, based upon ethnicity, skin color or religion, consider this:

As a young child I was bullied and physically harassed, subjected to taunts from my peers and teased by my elders and generally made to feel the outsider, because I was not the norm and this within a population where my coloring was considered more common. I think a lot of red heads can attest to this.

In most cultures and we crop up within all, red heads are and have been subjected to some sort of negative personality stereotyping based their skin and hair coloring.....fiery tempers, etc. etc.

Historically, redheads have been persecuted as witches, burned because of their freckled skin, considered bad luck, subjected to infanticide, portrayed in Christian mythology and western art as cohorts of Satan, in some cultures thought to have been the result of sex during menses and apparently Hitler banned the marriage of two red heads, lest they produce deviant offspring.

Back to global warming….If humanity is eventually doomed to a world of smog and cloud by either our own activities or just a natural cycle of earth's constant climate change, the red haired gene might still prove useful. If changes in the Earth's climate bring about a world of unrelenting, baking sun and continuing thinning ozone, our (the red head's) extreme sensitivity to UV light will eventually also cause our elimination from the human gene pool, where even more protection from the sun is needed. Red could prove the canary in the mine.

So does dark matter? Yes, it could matter a great deal, as far as human survival is concerned and then again, it might not.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:22 AM

I think it was the "spaced out", "black hole" sentences that helped me see that your post was at least part snark. Or was it?

Indeed it was, Azizi, and more than partly so. I posted with Star Trek in mind and with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. Just trying to lighten things up a bit... so to speak. :^)

But the "unnoticed or attractive" part of my post were supposed to be punny, too, in that it pertains to dark matter as well as to the subject of this thread. Oh well, you know what they say: if you have to explain the joke...

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:56 AM

See what I mean? Somehow I forgot to take off the italic thingy.

But I got the 100th post so it's all good.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:55 AM

I had to read your post a couple of times before I figured out that your use of dark matter was as noun and not with dark being shorthand for people with dark skin color and matter being a verb that in this context means Is it pertinent, relevant, significant, important, of consequence, or is it inpertinent [?], irrelevant, insignificant, unimprtant, of no consequence {or, should I have said "inconsequential".

I think it was the "spaced out", "black hole" sentences that helped me see that your post was at least part snark. Or was it? If so, it was a good play on words, especially since the title for this thread is a play on words of another Mudcat thread about "outer space".

**

Excuse my experimenting with fonts. Thanks to some instructions like this one that a Mudcat guest & several Mudcat members shared with me, I finally learned how to change the font from one appearance to another.

But I have to keep practicing how to do it or I'll forget the instructions that make it work. I know that eventually using those instructions will become second nature. But now, I have to concentrate on each step and go back a couple of times to try to catch the errors I make before I hit the submit button.

I think there's a lesson in there somewhere about how we can help change the world from a place where certain kinds of differences make a difference to a world where those kinds of differences don't matter at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:45 AM

(chuckle...)

Yeah, I thought of that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:20 AM

Does being dark matter... what? Finish the question!!

Does being dark matter leave you feeling unnoticed? or attractive?

Does it make you feel spaced out?

...or does it make you whole? (black hole)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bee
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:34 PM

"Dark matters"...

I spent most of my working life in a predominantly Black community. About half my coworkers were Black, and one of my two bosses was Black, and the atmosphere was usually pretty happy. Thirty years have brought a lot of changes in the way people perceive, but not enough.

Some stories, some changes...

A Black mother noting with exasperation that once again, one of her short children had been placed in the back row in the school class photos: would not happen today.

Going shopping with my conservatively dressed and coiffed Black friend, and having store security follow us in every single shop. Likely still going on, but I hope not.

I remember being shocked when I heard several young Black women discussing some Cuban sailors they'd met the night before, because one said "He was so black he was purple - I wouldn't go out with him." And the others laughed and agreed. But that was thirty years ago, and I don't know a black woman now who would say such a thing.

My coworkers, thirty years ago, wearing their hair natural for the first time since childhood, and finally, twenty years ago, feeling free to do any damn thing they liked with it. But little girls still freaking out when their braids come out in the swimming pool "My mother will kill me!"

Learning how to comb and braid hair as a result of above.

Banks got colour blind. It became much easier for Black families to get loans and mortgages.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:23 PM

Thanks, Azizi. Lots of good info there. Like I say, I based my observations simply on what I saw among the people I was around when I was there, and the general political and social talk in informal discussions among us (we did a lot of that). They were a church-based community, doing a lot of useful social work, and they were very idealistic people. I saw no evidence of prejudice among those people or in their dealings with other Cubans of different races.

I heard a lot of talk about gender issues, financial issues, poverty issues, educational and economic issues, political and travel issues, but none about racial issues. People usually talk about whatever it is that they are most concerned about.

The tension between so-called "pure blooded" Spaniards and other Latin Americans has, of course, been a major issue in all the Latin American societies ever since Cortez and Pizzaro landed with their conquistadors and their priests and their torturous religion and their greed for gold...

My own grandfather, a man from Prague, Czechoslovakia, was clearly prejudiced in both a class and racial sense, having come from a time and a class which encouraged that sort of prejudice. He served as a European trade official for decades, dealing with all of Latin America, and while he respected the "pure blooded" Spaniards in the elite (they being the people he normally did his business negotiations with), he made no secret of the fact that he despised mestizos, mulattos, Blacks, Amerindians, and anyone who wasn't solidly "white" as far as he was concerned. He also despised Asians. I have no idea what he thought about Jews, but I have to wonder...

I found my Grandparents' attitudes in this respect extraordinary, but all I could do was shrug...they were in a different mindset, and they were thinking in terms of a bygone era. You could not change their minds about it.

I think my Grandfather would have preferred it if Latin America had all remained under the control of Imperial Spain, Portugal, England, etc...he would not have liked Simon Bolivar's comment. ;-)

I couldn't disagree more with his attitudes, but here's the funny thing....as a person, I'd have to say that he was a very nice, gentle, non-confrontational man, an honest business person in his dealings with others, and basically quite a good man. He simply had no idea that he was prejudiced when it came to all those various groups of people. He thought he was seeing it all as it really was. That's what he had learned from his upper class peer group in Prague and Vienna when he was young, and he went on believing it for his whole life.

Amazing, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 09:58 PM

FYI Little Hawk, and of course for anyone else who is interested, here's a link to http://www.afrocubaweb.com/raceident.htm#cuban%20authors

And here's the introduction to one of that site's pages:

"AfroCubans: Race & Identity in Cuba
There is an increasing focus on race & identity in Cuba, from both within and outside the island. Here we present some resources and references on issues relating to AfroCubans as these are complex and often poorly understood. We will be adding to this and welcome suggestions.

Some observers estimate that over 70% of the Cubans inside Cuba are of African descent. Both the Cuban government and analysts at the US State Department and the CIA agree on a number around 63%. A much smaller percentage of Cubans abroad are of African descent. In Miami, some estimate that over 97% of Cubans are of Spanish origin. At the very least, 85% of them describe themselves as being white in a recent survey. In New Jersey, there are more AfroCubans among the Cuban exiles there.

The very term Spanish Cuban tends to hide the fact that Spaniards themselves have a strong African heritage, the result of being next to North Africa and receiving African culture over the millenia, including the 8 centuries the Moors occupied southern Spain, from 710 AD to 1492 AD. This gives rise to a famous quote from Simon Bolivar, himself a mulatto who was often held in contempt by "pure blooded" Spaniards: "We are no longer European just as Spain is no longer European, because of its African blood, character and institutions."

Cuba also has a Chinese community, centered around Havana's "Barrio Chino."   Many Chinese were brought into Cuba towards the end of the last century as it became more difficult to kidnap and import Africans.

There is a very small, but still surviving Indian community, mostly in Oriente and consisting of Taino people, related to the Taino of Puerto Rico. According to Cuban researchers working over the past 20 years, Native Cubans survived in far greater numbers to a much later date than was commonly accepted: part of the continent wide myth of the "vanishing red man". See Native Cuba.

There is also a Jewish community which has been reconnecting with Jews outside the island."

-snip-


Here is a listing from another section of that site:

What Cubans say:

Flor Amalia Donde Esta Dios? - a play on racism by playwright Amalia
   
Gisela Arandia A Panorama of Afrocuban Culture and History: One Way to Strengthen Nationality. Author Arandia is a researcher on race & identity issues at the UNEAC
   
Miguel Barnet Biography of a Runaway Slave. Author Barnet is head of the Fundacion Ortiz.
   
Ulises Cabrera Independent journalist, writes vehemently against the Cuban government. Blacks and Whites
El Blanco y el Negro

Digna Castañeda Fuertes Between Race and Empire : African-Americans and Cubans Before the Cuban Revolution (1998).   A professor at the University of Havana.
   
Fidel Castro Has discussed the topic on a number of occasions, with increasing frequency and openess.
   
Raúl Castro "Raúl Castro stated that if a person is denied entry to a hotel because he or she is black, then that establishment should be closed, thus applying our laws, even if the installation concerned is a joint venture." -- On Gender and Racial Equality, 3/00

Miguel De La Torre Masking Hispanic Racism: A Cuban Case Study, Journal of Hispanic/Latino Theology,

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 09:13 PM

Any society that obsessively focuses on "race" issues in its news media and its entertainment media gives no one the choice of being color blind....but it gives those on the bottom of the pecking order the least choice of all. No surprise about that! It was ever so.

The only place I've been (so far) where I detected no trace of race prejudice was Cuba, where you have a population that is mostly composed of Latins and Caribbean Blacks, a trace of Amerindians, some Europeans of one sort or another, and a lot of mixed blood people by now. My experience there was limited to the people I was around, of course, so I can't speak for the whole society...I can only say that my impression was that people there were not inclined at all to make race an issue or a problem in their dealings with one another.

They did have gender issues. The women were quite militant in general about combating what they see as the oldtime Latino sexist attitudes on the part of some men toward women. Their revolution greatly encouraged equality of races and genders, and it certainly has had an effect in radicalizing about the last 3 generations of Cuban women to assert themselves.

They did not appear to have race issues. They did not appear to be at all worried about race issues, and that was a good sign as far as I was concerned. It indicates to me that the powerful in that society are not fomenting race issues in any way.

Trinidad was an interesting case also, because it's basically a 3-part society racially: the majority of people are about a 50/50 split between Black and East Indian, while there is a smaller White community mixed in too. It's also a 3-part society religiously, between Hindu/Christian/Muslim...all about equally strong communities. The 3 communities tend to get along well for the most part, but....and this is a BIG but....NOT during political campaigns! At those times the politicians start playing off one group against another and fomenting much bitter division and hostility...and it leads to a certain amount of violent crime, including kidnappings (for hefty ransoms) and murders.

It is strictly the damned politicians in Trinidad who have created the racial problems, as far as I can see, and they did it by raising racial issues frivolously and cynically in order to manipulate voters.

There is a great deal of intermarriage between racial groups in both Cuba and Trinidad...a positive sign of their ability to get along well with one another...if those in power leave them alone to live in peace with one another.

What I am saying, in a roundabout way, is that American politicians, in their efforts to manipulate voters and to attack their opponents, have again and again stirred the pot of resentment and used racial issues to try to discredit one another. They have deliberately poked the hornet's nest and thrown the match in the gasoline, expecting to profit in some way from the ensuing controversy.

In so doing, they have caused a great deal of harm to relations between the races, while pretending to be doing it for the most laudable of reasons...or even while believing they are doing it for the most laudable of reasons. They have helped put salt in old wounds, and caused new wounds that will last for generations.

It's the old "divide and conquer" technique, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:42 PM

It's my view that American society does not give people of color the object to be color blind.

Let me rephrase that sentence so it says what I meant it to say:

It's been my experience that American society does not give people of color the choice of being color blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:35 PM

GUEST,Sistah SoulJah,

Thanks for visiting Mudcat.

I happen to think that a person's racial group identity is only one facet of who she or he is. But, in my opinion, I strongly believe that a person's racial/ethnic group identity is an important part of there identity-especially in societies which have a history and present day occurances of discrimination and personal fear, distrust, dislike, and/or hatred toward a group of people and groups of people. I believe that such feelings and the actions that result from those feelings are destructive both to the victim group/s and to the group of people doing the victimizing.

In your post, you wrote that you are mixed racial. I believe that in an ideal world, a person's racial and ethnic background would be a value neutral fact. I also think that a person who is mixed race should be able to choose one or the other or both of her or his racial backgrounds. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

I'm not sure if you live in the USA or not. It's been my experience that people in the USA rely on visual clues such skin color, hair texture, and facial features including the shape of a person's nose or the slant of a person's eyes, to determine which racial or ethnic group that person belongs to. Given that the American society has a long history of and present day evidences of racism, it is likely that people who look a certain way will be "judged" by others to belong to a certain group.

It's my view that American society does not give people of color the object to be color blind.

In order for people to "be all that we can be" I very much believe that it is important for us to develop & reinforce a positive group identity or identities as well as positive personal identities {for instance being considered a good athlete, or a good singer, and/or a person who is a good student}. It's also important to feel good about other races/ethnicities.

Sister SoulJah, I hope that you join consider joining Mudcat. If you joined this online community, it would be your choice whether you made references to your racial/ethnic background or not.

I hope to "hear" from you again or this Mudcat thread and/or on other threads.

Best wishes,

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:46 PM

Being dark has, for perhaps thousands of years, been considered disadvantageous in many cultures...but not all of them.

I think that one of the main reasons for that was the simplest one: rich people tended not to have to work outdoors a lot in the agrarian ages that preceded the industrial revolution, while poor people generally spent their lives working outdoors. Thus rich people tended to stay pale and poor people tended to tan darkly.

Almost everyone would rather look upper class if they can...hence the prevalence of prejudice in favor of lighter skin tones. This was true in Europe, throughout Asia, and in some African cultures too. I'm not sure if it was a factor in the Americas, prior to the arrival of the Whites, but it may have been in some places with more of a "city" culture, as in the case of Aztecs, Mayas, and Incas.

Now, since the industrial revolution occurred, things have changed! Rich people are now MORE likely to get a tan (and to want one) than poorer people, because the poorer people have mostly gone to indoor work and they don't have as much leisure time to get out in the sun.

Thus having a tan is now fashionable. It looks "rich". John Kennedy, for example, looked "rich". Nixon didn't! Nixon was pale, but Kennedy looked like a "bronze god", according to people at the time. Kennedy's healthy and charismatic appearance was the biggest factor in getting him elected over Richard Nixon.

Ironical, isn't it? People are really pretty predictable when it comes to that sort of thing. They always want whatever is rarer and harder to get, whether it be a lighter skin tone or a darker one.

***

I chose not to address racial issues in this post...only skin tone issues. The racial issues are many and complex, and they can change radically as time goes by. Whichever race is "on top" in terms of political and financial power...and that can change...that race is the one that ends up thinking of itself as superior at any given time. Such thinking is illusory, of course, but it's very persuasive in influencing people's view of themselves and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,Sistah SoulJah
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:26 PM

that statement reallymakes u think differently about being of mixed heritage...always made to feel like ur not a whole person being mixed race...in my experience at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:28 AM

The best neighbour we have in our street is 'black'. I just think of him as Mike... I note his colour in the same way as I note that one of my best friends here has dark hair and eyes. It's just a way to describe them to another person." -jacqui.c

-snip-

jacqui.c, race as a valueless descriptor is the way that I would love race/ethnicity to be considered now & in the future.

Unfortunately, all people in this nation & throughout the world, and institutions in this nation & throughout the world aren't of the same mind and opinion.

Unfortunately, race does still matter, and in many "incidences" like the Jena 6 or Jena 3 that is reported above, it has little or nothing to do with a person being "quite comfortable in his [or her]own skin" or the fact that Mike's [your Black neighbor's] "colour has never been something that has been raised as an issue".

That said, I appreciate your comments and I'm glad that you have a point of view about race that I wish many others had.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:15 AM

It appears that "the Jena 6" have beome "the Jena 3", See this article for background:

Tom Mangold in Jena, Louisiana
Sunday May 20, 2007
The Observer

Racism goes on trial again in America's Deep South

"The prosecution of three black Louisiana youths reveals the rise of discrimination by stealth

In the cool and beflagged small courtroom in Jena, Louisiana, three black schoolboys - Robert Bailey, Theodore Shaw and Mychal Bell - are about to go on trial for a playground fight that could see them jailed for between 30 and 50 years.

Jena, about 220 miles north of New Orleans, is a small town of 3,000 people, 85 per cent of whom are white. Tomorrow it will be the focus for a race trial which could put it on the map alongside the bad old names of the Mississippi Burning Sixties such as Selma or Montgomery, Alabama.

Jena is gaining national notoriety as an example of the new 'stealth' racism, showing how lightly sleep the demons of racial prejudice in America's Deep South, even in the year that a black man, Barak Obama, is a serious candidate for the White House.

It began in Jena's high school last August when Kenneth Purvis asked the headteacher if black students could break with a long-held tradition and join the whites who sit under the tree in the school courtyard during breaks. The boy was told that he and his friends could sit where they liked.

The following morning white students had hung three nooses there. 'Bad taste, silly, but just a prank,' was the response of most of Jena's whites.

'To us those nooses meant the KKK [Ku Klux Klan]...

The three white perpetrators of what was seen as a race hate crime were given 'in-school' suspensions (sent to another school for a few days before returning)...

On 30 November, someone tried to burn Jena High to the ground. The crime remains unsolved. That same weekend race fights between teenagers broke out downtown, and on 4 December racial tension boiled over once more in the school. A white student, Justin Barker, was attacked, allegedly by six black students.

The expected charges of assault and battery were not laid, and the six were charged with attempted second-degree murder and conspiracy to commit second-degree murder. They now face a lifetime in jail...

Bail for the impoverished students was set absurdly high, and most have been held in custody. The town's mind seems to be made up.

But now the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the American Civil Liberties Union - 'damned outsiders' - have become involved and have begun to recruit, enthuse and empower the local black population. Reporters from the BBC and the New York Times have been drawn to the story..."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2083762,00.html#article_continue

**

Also, see this Mudcat thread thread.cfm?threadid=101905&messages=14 BS: Jena 6 guilty attempted 2nd deg. murder?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:42 PM

Try havin' a look at the news in Jena, Louisiana, if ya figure being 'dark' don't matter in the US of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 May 07 - 03:05 PM

Bill - I agree with you about it being made to matter.

I've been thinking about the people I know and those who I see in the news and really feel that the physical appearance of those around me really isn't as important as the person wrapped inside. Yes, appearance can be used as a point of reference, but that is all it is and all it should be.

The best neighbour we have in our street is 'black'. I just think of him as Mike - who has made us a bit of a project, checking up on us during snowstorms and the recent Nor'Easter. Mike never seems to have to identify himself as a black person - he's quite comfortable in his own skin and colour has never been something that has been raised as an issue. I note his colour in the same way as I note that one of my best friends here has dark hair and eyes. It's just a way to describe them to another person. Otherwise it means very little to me and, it seems, to them. There are a few people for whom I have no tolerance at all, here and in the UK. I dislike them because of their behaviour, not their appearance.

Same on the 'Cat - there are posters whose posts I don't read because I find them not to my taste - I don't know if they are black, white or what.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:29 PM

You are welcome. When it gets closer to the date, I will be posting about the following one, also from POV:

        20th Anniversary 2007 Preview
Sierra Leone's Refugee All Stars

by Zach Niles & Banker White

If the refugee is today's tragic icon of a war-torn world, then Sierra Leone's Refugee All Stars, a reggae-inflected band born in the camps of West Africa, represents a real-life story of survival and hope. The six-member Refugee All Stars came together in Guinea after civil war forced them from their native Sierra Leone. Traumatized by physical injuries and the brutal loss of family and community, they fight back with the only means they have — music. The result, as shown in "Sierra Leone's Refugee All Stars," is a tableau of tragedy transformed by the band's inspiring determination to sing and be heard. A Diverse Voices Project co-production.

Broadcast Date:
Tuesday, June 26, 2007 at 10PM (90 minutes)
(check local listings)

Website Launch:
TBA, 2007
URL: www.pbs.org/pov/sierraleone

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:50 AM

katlaughing, thanks for posting information about & and a link to that video.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:40 AM

Just received the summer schedule for Point of View (POV). On June 19th they will be airing a piece called "Rain in a dry land." Here is the blurb:

How do you measure the distance from an African village to an American city? What does it mean to be a refugee in today's "global village"? "Rain in a Dry Land" provides eye-opening answers as it chronicles the fortunes of two Somali Bantu families, transported by relief agencies from years of civil war and refugee life to Springfield, Massachusetts and Atlanta, Georgia. As the newcomers confront racism, poverty and 21st-century culture shock, the film captures their efforts to survive in America and create a safe haven for their war-torn families. Their poetry, humor and amazing resilience show us our own world through new eyes. A co-production with the Independent Television Service (ITVS).

You can see a video of some of it HERE.

Thought it might be of interest.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:39 PM

It occurs to me that dark matters quite a lot when I have to consider the context and date to decide what terms to use to refer to someone.

When I was in college and a member of the school chapter of the NAACP, there was this controversy as some of the 'black' students were just rejecting being CALLED 'Negro' and were opting in favor of 'black'...Stokley Carmichael and the Black Panther Party were very much in the news, and language was very much in turmoil. Several meetings had trouble getting past terminology. There was, at the time, one group campaigning for "Afro-American", but they were a minority.
Even today, 40 years later, it is not settled. I find typing (or saying) "African-American" awkward, partly because of its length, and partly because it just doesn't cover all the various groups...especially in large urban communities. When I have to fill out a form, 'white' is usually adequate to describe ME...even though 'pale pink' is probably closer. I would HATE having to type 'Caucasian'...but would, if there were some standard way to describe the other categories.

It is so frustrating to have to PONDER whether "Latino", "Hispanic" or "Spanish" also covers "Mexican" and who will be insulted if I get it wrong....and with the world shrinking and marriage across cultural boundaries increasing, there soon won't BE enough categories to cover everyone.

I'd prefer to not NEED to identify anyone with a label, except when it's necessary...like a description for a police investigation, or when there is some event celebrating some ethnic group. If I need to just single out someone in a group, it would be convenient to say "the black guy standing next to the white guy with the cap".....I don't want to fret over whether the 'black' guy will be offended is he hears me.

We have several 'dark' members in our craft guild--in fact, one was just elected president-- and we almost always just refer to her and the others by their name...and if someone is not sure who we mean, we mention their craft, not their color.



...as I type and think, it dawns on me again that 'being dark matters' BECAUSE various folks are constantly making it matter...from Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson appearing on the scene whenever an 'incident' happens, to news programs speculating about Barak Obama and wondering "if America is ready for a black president"....shucks, I'd have voted for Barbara Jordan years ago, if she had run....and I suspect she'd have done well!

This is the TV era...there is NO doubt that Obama has some 'dark' heritage, but I'd LOVE to see the entire campaign go on with no direct mention of it. Then maybe we'd be moving toward the day when it DIDN'T matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:02 AM

alanabit,

thanks so much for posting that additional information. I recognize that remembering that what happened to Betty isn't an abstraction for you. But maybe doing so and posting about it has helped others work through and/or better understand some of their attitudes and perceptions about race.

It certainly has helped me understand that "the blacks" can refer to people other than Black Americans, particularly if "the blacks" is used by non-American people.

And it occurs to me that we haven't even talked about the differences between "Colored people" in the USA; "Coloured people" in the nation of South Africa, and "people of color" as currently used in the USA...

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:07 AM

Azizi: Your post of 21 May 07 - 07:46 PM is bringing into focus something, which probably helps to explain the way I felt about "Betty's" case. At the time, a friend of hers remarked, "She doesn't even think of herself as being black." You and Peace have a point there, as Peace illustrated in his pictures of Dr. Martin Luther King and Mahatma Ghandi. In the case of the former, we tend to think of his "being Black" as a defining characteristic of his identity. Only a Black man could have experienced or known what he did.
What was so upsetting about Betty's case, was that the first time her attention was brought to the way she looked (while at college), it was for such a horrible, destructive reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:53 PM

Confronting racism is a human obligation, a debt we owe to the future. Many countries--Canada included--practise institutional racism, and it means when all is said and done that some people will lag so far behind that only sweeping reforms to taxation, medical care, education and hiring policies will allow some folks to stand a chance at catching up.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:28 PM

"The problem of the twentieth century is the problem of the color-line - the relation of the darker to the lighter races of men in Asia and Africa, in America and the islands of the sea." - W.E.B. DuBois, The Souls of Black Folk, February, 1903.

We didn't solve "the problem of the color line" in the 20th century. Racism is still deeply rooted in American systems and White & non-White American psyches.

I think that discussions such as this one help us to know each other better, and in knowing each other, we move closer to eradicating racism.

Then again, I believe that on this thread,we are largely preaching to the choir

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:37 PM

My son-in-law has been on the receiving end of racism plenty of times since coming to America when he was a teen; stopped by cops and asked whose car he was driving, as if a young black man couldn't possibly own a nice car, guards at WalMart putting their hands on their guns as he walked in, etc. He has never been naive enough to believe they would know any difference from him or an American of African descent. Of course, all he has to do is start talking and his accent makes it obvious he was not raised here, but that doesn't stop the racists.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:22 PM

There ya got me.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:15 PM

Okay.

But in Britain, would both of them be considered "blacks"?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:07 PM

Black, in Canada--at least so far as I am aware, refers mostly to people of Black African heritage or appearance. This man is Black. This man is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:48 PM

Skivee,

Thank you.

Too bad your other post was gobbled up. I would have liked to have read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:46 PM

And with regards to alanabit's story of "Betty" who had Sri Lankan origins saying ""Well done Alan. You really stuck up for us blacks.":

I found that story interesting on many levels. But, I'd like to focus on this one aspect of that story-

I don't think in the USA that people from Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan, and other places in the Far East use "blacks" as a group referent for themselves.

Apparently the referent "Black" in England and other parts of the UK includes person from Sri Lanka as well as Black Britons who were there prior to Black people from the Caribbean coming, Black people from the Caribbean, Africans, African Americans, Black Canadians, Black people from Latin/South American, Middle Easterners etc etc etc.

Am I right about that?

And is this the same way "Black" is used in Canada and in Australia?

When you think about it, it makes sense since some Sri Lankans, East Indians, Pakistanis, etc etc etc are much darker in skin color than African Americans. But I don't think that "black" is used that way in the USA.

Maybe I'm wrong.

??

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Skivee
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:39 PM

Azizi, Thanks for saying what I was trying to, much better than I did.
I had made a much longer and better reasoned statement, but it was gobbled up by the vaguries of the Interweb.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:31 PM

It is natural for individuals to take pride in their homeland, and to identify themselves as being from that homeland. However, nationality is one thing and race/ethnicity is another.

There's no doubt that there are differences between the cultures of African Americans, Antiguans, Jamaicans, Kenyans, Nigerians, etc etc etc. However, when any of these people reside in the USA or visit the USA, the physical clues that Americans use to categorize people by race will result in most of the people from these nations being categorized as Black. {I say "most" since in every nation where there are Black people, some of those people will be be light enough, have physical features, and hair textures which enable them to "pass for White". "Passing for White" does not have to be purposeful. When people look a certain way, others make assumptions that may or may not be accurate. {Needless to say, I am using the American social definition of "Black" , the infamous "one drop of Black blood" rule, meaning anyone who has any African ancestry, no matter how many generations ago that was}.

Since Americans {that is to say people from the United States} have a habit of simplifying things, any person who is African American in appearance {and that covers a wide range of skin colors, facial features, and hair textures} is considered to be a Black American. And to most Americans, "Black American" means "African American" and vice versa. While this is not culturally accurate, it's the way things are.

If a person from Antigua, Jamaica, Kenya, Nigeria etc etc etc met up with some skin head racists down South or up North, I don't think those racists would be satisfied if those individuals who are technically not "African American" said "Sorry, but you have mistaken me for an African American. I'm an Antiguan" or "I'm a Jamaican" or "I'm a Kenyan". or "I'm a Nigerian".

For some reason, I just can't imagine those racists saying "Oh, sorry. Wrong person".

No matter which country they came from and when, anyone in the USA who is Black in appearance better be aware and prepared for the fact that they're likely to have personal experiences with people who are prejudiced against them just because of their appearance.

To disregard this fact by focusing on nationality could result in that person being blindsided by racism. And to ignore the realities of American racism could also result in a person putting himself or herself and others in a dangerous situation that could result in injury and/or loss of life.

In this sense, though it makes no sense, being dark does matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Skivee
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:58 PM

Sorry folks. My point was NEVER to say that African-Americans weren't the target of hate and bile; but rather the opposite idea that any ethnic group ( and I'm thinking of white supremisists here) is somehow better than Africans is stoopid. Because we are all Africans.
And speaking of the supposedly advanced Star Trek, the only way they could think how to get the ***first interracial kiss** on TV was to have Uhuru and Kirk be forced to do the deed because of an evil mind controlling creepy alien. It should have been that Uhuru and Kirk liked each other and kissed. Dark matters in space, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:52 PM

That's pretty much what I meant, Scoville, thanks. I think the previous poster was splitting hairs.

I had in mind my son-in-law who is Antiguan, living in America and proud of his Antiguan heritage, as are his sons, my twin grandsons.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Greg B
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:00 PM

I find the Star Trek reference interesting, in that it's a TV
series which found its niche at a time when the politics of
race were coming to the fore in California.

Other trivia which may or may not be relevant: Nichelle Nichols
(Uhura) and Star Trek producer Gene Roddenberry were lovers, and
Nichols has supposedly said this may have helped her land the role
( http://www.nndb.com/people/503/000022437/ )

I find it somewhat interesting that the vision of the 23rd century
in Star Trek was such that racial and cultural identity remained
strong in the human race. The only venture into the idea of 'mixed
race' is in fact Spock. I would submit that, to the late-1960's
audience, the idea of a half-human was more palatable than a
mixed-human-race character! Witness that when you see human
couples on the series, they're never or mixed race. Even Kirk,
in full (and frequent) rut, is never amorous with a woman 'of
color' in the conventional sense. With green hair, yes. With brown
skin, no.

Then again, Star Fleet officialdom, at the highest levels (see
for example the episode Court Marshall where the senior officers
are of mixed race, but note, never female, then again, Enterprise
under Captain Pike prior to Kirk apparently had a female first-
officer.

Since we're onto the subject of women, note the uniforms. The men
were in eminently practical pants and tee-shirts, though their
heels may have been a bit much. The women, on the other hand,
had hair-dos that would take hours to produce, had lower necklines
and very high hemlines, along with what could best be described as
go-go boots. Eye-candy in the 60's sense, yes. Sexist, too. The
airlines quickly adopted such uniforms for their 'stewardesses.'
As they said, 'Fly the Friendly Thighs of United.'

In many ways, we've already progressed beyond Roddenberry's vision
of an integrated society...in the same fashion that much technology
has progressed beyond the original series' vision--- for example
the blinky lights and rocker-switches on the bridge set, not to
mention the computer making a sound like a model 33ASR teletype.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Scoville
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:32 AM

From a previous post:
"A note: not all Black Americans are of African descent."

This seems unlikely, as every human that walks the Earth is of African descent. No hominids sprung up any where else. We are all Africans. All else is presumption and vanity.

Possibly what the previous post meant was that, anthropological particulars aside, not all black Americans are or consider themselves to be African-American. One of my college friends was born in the Caribbean and was a naturalized citizen. She did not consider herself African-American even though she was clearly of African descent because she did not have an African-American cultural or familial legacy.

Personally, I find it obnoxious when whites (and I'm white) trot out the "we're all African" line. Our distant--very distant--heritage does not necessarily affect our life experiences. Very light-skinned black people often face less discrimination than darker ones, especially if they do not "look" black. Yes, we're all African at some point millions of years ago, but most of us haven't gone through the problems associated with being visibly African.

DNA does not dictate mindset so there would be no point in discussing presence alone of African heritage as related to how people view things. I was under the impression that this thread was started as a discussion based on cultural and experiential influences rather than anthropology.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 May 07 - 10:42 PM

having lived with the Caucasian equivalents of these issues off & on for many years, I can assure you it goes well beyond 'class'.....but that is another 9 paragraphs of typing to explain and document...*wry grin*....maybe some other day.

take care...

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:57 PM

Bill D, the word I would use to describe your Latino neighbors is "triflin".

[I'm sure that you know what that word means, but for those who don't here's two definitions from urbandictionary.com-"Any wrong or inappropriate action taken against one, for selfish or pointless reasons," and "describing a situation, person, or event that is pathetic".

And that ain't even the half of that word's meaning].

I don't live in a transitional neighborhood, so it's easy for me to say that it seems that what you are talking about is class and not race/ethnicity. I'm sure you know that there are some triflin White folks in the world too. And I don't want them living near me any more than I want any African American, Latino, Asian, or Native Americans who are triflin' as neighbors.

I wish that I had some suggestions that would help you deal with the situation you describe, but I can't think of any that you probably haven't already thought of.

And I'm not going to "preach to the choir" about how you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. You know that better than me.

I wish you well,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Skivee
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:17 PM

From a previous post:
"A note: not all Black Americans are of African descent."

This seems unlikely, as every human that walks the Earth is of African descent.
No hominids sprung up any where else. We are all Africans. All else is presumption and vanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 May 07 - 08:05 PM

It depends on what the superficialities are that overlay the 'core'. That is what the enmities and discriminations are largely based on.

One of the most common & obvious is color, of course, but that is not as central as it used to be. It seems to me that color these days, as a 'marker' of race/ethnicity just provides an easy category and way to generalize, when the concerns are actually about language, behavior, 'morality', customs and perhaps political/economic factors.

'Dark', whether Hispanic, African, Caribbean, Native American...etc. matters because there are those 'concerns' noted above associated with them by the 'not dark'...sometimes correctly, but often just as rumors and stereotypes and generalizations.(and of course, this goes both ways)

Because OF anti-discrimination laws in hiring and housing, integrated schools and military, affirmative action and various other forces, society has become more mixed....in some places..., and this has been beneficial in many ways. But there are always areas where assimilation is largely a joke. I live in the Wash. D.C. metro area, and I can go to areas where entire shopping centers have Vietnamese signs, or have mostly Spanish businesses, or where I can drive for several miles and see mostly African-American faces and very few people who look like ME.
   Now, where I live, in a suburb, the neighborhood is quite mixed. In my street we have at least 3-4 black families, including one mixed couple, one family who is either Indian or Pakistani, several..(4-6) who are Hispanic and I see several Asian folks walking or driving by, though I am not sure exactly where they live...just that they are regulars. We have had 15-20 years with no problems, and I am acquainted with several of these folks and have a nodding relationship with several of the others........but.....

....suddenly, it is changing. There is a high school near me, and my street is an obvious route for kids who live across a nearby major street to use when walking to school. It seems that neighborhood is very heavily African-American, and I have been having intermittent problems with the kids..(coming into my yard, breaking things, turning over an old swing set..etc.) My LONG time next-door neighbor sold his house last year, and it was bought by a Latino guy who rents rooms to several other young Latino men. Only one of them speaks passable English, and every weekend next door involves loud music, extra visitors, and by Monday morning, piles of beer bottles on the curb ...so many that the trash collectors often break a couple trying to empty the overflowing bins.....guess who gets to sweep up the broken glass if I don't want to drive over it? (My driveway is right beside their trash spot).
   The next door lawn is no longer maintained well, there has been a broken washing machine sitting on the curb for 3 weeks now, and there are between 3 and 6 EXTRA cars/trucks parked on the street. I am trying VERY hard to remain civil and at least say hello and hope for a way to make....ummm. 'suggestions', but it is hard to KNOW what to say...and as I say, they speak little English. They either do not understand, or do not care, how to separate recycleables and tree trimmings from trash, and almost EVERY Monday the collections people t
'tag' one or more cans as 'not passable' and leave them on the curb...sometimes it takes a couple of weeks before anyone makes the necessary changes. I find cigarette packs, beer bottles, condoms (twice) and other jetsam on my lawn or beside the curb where they have parked. Not huge amounts, but 'tedious'.

....enough? You see, I am faced with the age-old dilemma of what to do when a neighborhood changes. So far, I am coping, but if it gets worse, I am stumped...I cannot AFFORD to move...and I have 25 years worth of stuff to cope with.

What is this phenomenon? It is middle to lower middle class ethnic groups who do not care to be assimilated or adopt 'standard' language & customs beginning to mix with those who have done so. I have African-American neighbors who, at least when they are speaking to me, have very little accent, go to work, tend their lawn & gardens, wave hello when I pass and make no waves in the neighborhood. Perhaps they listen to different music than I do, attend black-only clubs, and watch very different TV programs...*shrug*..I have no way of knowing, but they are nice folks, and quite welcome. The kids from 'the other side of the main street' who walk by are walking stereotypes in dress & behavior (most of them), and I have obvious concerns. In addition, there is a fast rising number of assults, burglaries, rapes in my general area.

There are, you see, several 'cultures' which are not very compatible, beginning to bump together in awkward ways around here. I cannot look at ANY single individual and predict that they will be a direct problem for me, but every time there IS a problem, it comes with an ethnic label, and to return to the first paragraph in this rambling narrative, it is almost automatic now to be 'wary' of certain colors or languages.
Yeah, sadly...it 'matters'...even when I fight the tendency to make unwarranted assumptions, I am aware that I am 'trying' to be fair, civil and reasonable, and I resent having to worry over it.

I am well aware that some of MY ancestors a couple of centuries ago may have contributed to the situation that causes the turmoil I...and those I worry about...face today.....but *I* didn't do it, and *I* have worked for over 40 years to make it better, and the only progress I see is formal and superficial....for which I give SOME thanks! I LIKE knowing that Barak Obama can be in the senate and have a serious chance to be president, and that Tiger Woods can win at Augusta, where blacks were once banned from playing, and that *I* was once the factor that allowed an African-American man to win a political race over a bigoted, redneck white guy, and that a strong, brave woman in Mississippi helped set the tone for ANYONE to sit anywhere on a bus they chose to!.......but I'll confess, I am ready for those advances to mean more than just newspaper headlines and a greater ethnic mix in TV commercials!

I want some real cooperation and good will when 'dark matters' are concerned, and it will take both sides to make that happen....at least a bigger % of both sides than I see working at it now!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:21 PM

Helping where and how we can. Showing that at the core of things, differences don't matter.

That's two answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:40 PM

There were gangs when and where I grew up, just as there are gangs now. We formed gangs to protect ourselves. We protected ourselves into being a breakaway culture in our own district. Why gangs? Because we were outnumbered. That simple. I do not understand the root causes of discrimination. Maybe people do it because they can. It matters not where the minority is or what degree of colour they have--and I include Caucasians in that--, discrimination happens. Against Blacks in the US, against Whites in Zimbabwe, against Native people in the southern bits of Canada and against non-Native people in the north of Canada. It is practised against the Ainu in Japan, against Jews in many p[laces, against Arabs in others. Against women almost everywhere. Against the poor absolutely everywhere. And I have no answers or solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:33 PM

BTW, she was dark.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:33 PM

Colour identification in Canada.

I was watching a video in which a lady from Montreal was being interviewed. She was asked what island she was from. She replied, "Montreal." She was asked a second time and she repeated the answer. Finally, she looked at the interviewer andd said, "I was born here. Would it make you feel better if I said, 'I was born heah, mon'?

There was a brief pause and they moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:28 PM

I meant to write {and those people of Caribbean descent who aren't from Canada and who attend that festival}.

My daughter has attended that festival three times. She loves it and plans to go again this year. Her maternal great grandfather is from Trinidad/Tobago and her maternal great grandmother is from Barbados.

I understand from my daughter that lots of people who aren't of Caribbean descent attend the parade and other parts of that festival.

It's definitely not just for Caribbean people, but is a way for Caribbean people to celebrate, show off, and share their culture with their neighbors and fellow Canadians.

I haven't had the pleasure to attend Caribana yet. Hopefully, I'll be able to do so soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:12 PM

I agree with you that grandchildren of immigrants usually do not retain the language and values of their immigrant grandparents if that language and those values are different from other people in the nation in which they live. As to religion, it seems to me that that aspect of culture is more likely to be retained than are language & values.

However, even if they don't speak their immigrant grandparents' language, and don't retain their grandparents' values and religion, these grandchildren of immigrants may still retain some forms of their heritage that give them group pride and self-esteem.

Witness the huge Caribana Caribbean festival that has occured in Toronto for 40 years. This is evidence tht people of Caribbean descent in Canada {and those people of Caribbean descent who attend that festival} identify themselves as being of Caribbean descent {at least some of the time} and are interested in retaining & celebrating facets of their cultures.

Of course, a cultural festival is not the same as immigrants or descendants of immigrants changing the basic governmental structure of their host nation or being involved in those already existing governmental structures through voting, running for office, and other political activities.

That is a whole different story, the first part of which I would not support, and the second part of which I would very much support.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:15 PM

"I doubt, though, many of them arrive in America thinking they will leave behind their religion, language, and values."

If they don't think that, then they have a certain amount of unreality in their heads. Can anyone here seriously say they'd expect to go elsewhere and NOT adopt at least some social customs? And then the following generation adopt more? It is ALWAYS a struggle for third-generation Canadians to hang onto their mother tongues. But we still come back to the same thing: the more people isolate themselves or are isolated or some combination of both (as a group or as individuals), the less they are involved in government and the less input they have. It is not in the interests of Washington or Ottawa to change the balance. So guess what? The balance doesn't change.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:12 AM

It seems to me that in addition to the questions "Does race matter?" and "Should race matter?", another question that has been posed in this thread is "What-if anything-should be done if race matters?"

Mudcat threads on affirmative action and on poverty, including this recent thread that Peace started RE: BS: Poverty in the USA thread.cfm?threadid=99746&messages=835 in part, speak to this last question, and actually to the other questions posed by this thread. I say "in part" because its my belief that affirmative action indirectly benefits all people, and obviously all people in the USA who are poor are not "dark".

But then again, in spite of its play on words of that pre-existing thread title, the first question raised in this thread is "Does race matter?" and not "Does being Black or a person of color matter?"

I believe that being White matters to White people just as much or more than being Black matters to Black people or being a person of color matter to people of color.

With regard to "assimilation", that term may mean something different to UnitedStaters than it does to Canadians and persons living in other nations. When I read "assimilation" I think of social expectations for different groups of people rather than how people are absorbed brought into the nation.

"Assimilation" makes me think of the melting pot theory that was cast off in the USA in the 1970s [?] and replaced by the salad bowl multicultualism theory.

For discussion purposes, for the sake of those who may be on dial up and can't easily get to other websites, and because for some reason, the blue clicky thingy won't work for me for that site, I'm going to take the liberty to post an entire article that I found on the subject of the melting pot theory and the salad bowl theory:

COLUMN: America isn't a 'melting pot' or a 'salad bowl'
By Jennifer Elshoff
Iowa State Daily Columnist 11/7/2003

"We are all born with a natural identification instinct. As humans, we feel the need to name things and need to be able to place everything into a category. However, since colonies were first built in America, we have had an identity crisis which has never been completely settled.

The variety of ethnicities in America is said to be the best mix in the world, but analysts have not come up with a theory that best describes this mix as of yet. The "salad bowl" theory was just brought to my attention in a class this week. Apparently, this idea has been a catchphrase for decades, so I am a little behind.

America had never been explained to me as being anything other than a "melting pot."

"The melting pot theory has been the longest-standing ideology of the two, and the one most commonly discussed until recently.

The melting pot theory is based on the belief that America is one large pot of soup. Anyone who comes to the United States assimilates himself or herself to all American belief systems. All cultural aspects are blended together to form a new race or culture of people where each ingredient has sacrificed its original identity. Cultures are thought to now be a "melted" version of themselves that can no longer be easily distinguished.

The salad bowl idea gives the perspective that immigrants bring different tastes into one whole, but each ingredient maintains its original shape and characteristics.

There are large flaws that don't give the United States adequate merit in both these theories. With the melting pot theory, one would get the impression that adding one ingredient or taking one away would completely change the flavor and texture of the substance.

However, we in America have set standards of immigrants to our level of expectation. People of varying cultures are seen to be successful the more they step out of their native culture and step into our Western culture ideas. We are more likely to ignore factors of other people's beliefs than to accept them willingly into our brew as a tasty spice or seasoning.

The melting pot theory would work fantastically if everyone who came to America were European. However, somehow people of non-European descent are left out of the equation.

The salad bowl theory prides itself on stating that each culture is part of an American system (the salad), but that each culture (the peas, carrots or tomatoes, etc.) retains its own identity.

The problem with this theory is the carrots and peas still seem like outsiders. I know not everyone likes having peas or carrots in their salad. Some people drench lettuce in salad dressing, put on maybe a few sprinkles of cheese and call that a salad. No diversity, no variety.

The idea could be implied that each individual has the ability to pick and choose the ingredients they would like in their salad. This is not true, though, for everyday situations in America. For example, on campus, we might be thrown randomly into a group consisting of one Arab American, or one African American, or one person of any other culture. We have no choice but to work with that person and strive to work around any differences in order to complete the task.

Yes, you can request a salad without tomatoes, but going through life always asking for no tomatoes can be annoying. It would be easier if we weren't as picky and could eat any vegetable given to us.

I admit, I am having fun with the food groups, but hopefully what I am saying is apparent without making you too hungry. The melting pot theory and the salad bowl theory both seem extreme. On one hand, we are asking people to conform to the common Americanized belief system, while on the other hand we are making ethnicity too separated.

It would be great if America could finally be able to identify itself as a culture where people can come and be accepted as who they are, live intermixed with all cultures and still carry on their own beliefs. It is possible other ethnicities do not want to be seen as "American." Therefore, it wouldn't matter which theory we acquire.

However, I have never heard this as being true. People come to America to fit into a lifestyle and to succeed in that lifestyle. I doubt, though, many of them arrive in America thinking they will leave behind their religion, language, and values.

It is ridiculous to call ourselves a melting pot when there are noticeable separations between cultures. Perhaps in the near future we will be able to come up with an entree that efficiently identifies America's acceptance of ethnicity."

http://media.www.iowastatedaily.com/media/storage/paper818/news/2003/11/07/Opinion/Column.America.Isnt.A.melting.Pot.Or.A.salad.Bowl-1097586.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:54 PM

And that yes, dark matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:53 PM

The point I was making is that unless there is a reason NOT to assimilate, people DO assimilate--not necessarily a bad thing, but it's different in Canada maybe. As a country, existing Canadians expect people to assimilate. And people do. Much as we'd expect to do the same elsewhere.

Assimilation only works if the people who are going to be assimilated are happy about that. To be happy, they must have been sharing in the decisions of government. Look at your government--or mine for example: Ain't too much 'dark' in the bleachers. (Canada has a native North American population that is about 5% of its 33 million people. There ain't all that much 'red' in the bleachers either.) That is a strong indication that dark people are maybe not WELcome there. They have been and are left out of the process.

There are of course other layers of stuff that add to and compound the problems. Finances, degree of isolation both as a group and as individuals within the group, ease of access to the language (mostly English in Canada but with a large French population also) and it often means means that a valuable segment of the population is just not represented in government. Poor people are never represented by other poor people. Native peopl are not represented by other native people. We have a bloody glut of lawyers and rich folks represented though. So, in brief, I assert that there IS racism at work--at least in Canada, and I suspect there is in the USA, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 07 - 07:30 PM

Yes, Joe and in some places it is white which is associated with death and mourning..go figure, huh.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: mg
Date: 19 May 07 - 05:19 PM

About the Italians and Greeks...it was not long ago, probably still going on in my lifetime, when there was pretty serious prejudice against Italians, Greeks, others of Mediteranean descent. Italians in USA have particularly suffered because of Mafia assumptions. They were definitely second-class citizens and considered socially inferior. But they helped build America, feed America..have you ever been to an old Italian or Greek neighborhood..Seattle and Vancouver BC still had them years ago..and you could see how they fed a family on a little city lot..every cubic inch reaching up to the sky covered with food..a winery in the basement..a pigeon rookery on the roof..probably some chickens..maybe a goat hiding somewhere...awesome. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 May 07 - 04:33 PM

Much of our linguistic and cultural history of negative associations with darkness and blackness has little or nothing at all to do with skin color. In this age of sensitivity about racism, I sometimes think there has been a hypersensitivity about black and dark; and there has been an attempt to suppress things that have nothing to do with racism.

It's hard to figure out what's right and wrong in all this. Black has long been associated with death and doom - but is this because of skin color, or is it because of other associations? Is it racist to worry about black storm clouds and tornadoes, and moonless nights, and produce and flowers that are black and withered? Is "calling a spade a spade" a racist expression, and does it have to do with cards, shovels, or people?

In this whole matter of darkness and blackness, what's reasonable sensitivity and what's silliness?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 04:13 PM

Peace and others,

sometimes questions & statements are directed to one person to further clarify points that some other people might not otherwise "get".

I assume that lots more people read these threads than post to them. And I assume that some of these people may be new to the topic of whether race does or should matter.

That said, this thread is not about labeling indiviuals or groups of people as more or less free of prejudice and enlightment than others.

I started this thread so that I and others who wished to could explore a complicated but, in my opinion, important subject.

I again thank those who have posted comments on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:54 PM

I just found a post from 2001 in a thread about 'social activism'...
   I will C&P it here, as it is one of the most telling and scary anecdotes I know.
I'm not sure if it goes beyond the bounds of what Azizi asked for, but I can't get it out of my head.

(By the way..the 'Mac' who told me the story was VERY aware of various ethnic groups and had the ability to gain the confidence of and learn about them as close to the 'inside' as a white man could."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
".....In the mid-60s, I was active in civil rights..even to the point of going to Mississippi for voter registration marches..(lots of varied stories there!) But this is a different 'view' of the subject.

....I was talking to a friend in Kansas (Mac) about the situation, and wondering how men could be so mean etc., to allow an entire race to be subjugated...so HE told me about his grandfather......seems the old man was a farmer in Oklahoma, and had black field hands working for him, and had a reputation of being 'too' good to them, giving them decent pay and extra consideration. So...when the civil rights noise started, some neighbors were talking to Mac's grandfather about how to deal with 'uppity' blacks who had the temerity to want to vote and ride in the front of the bus, etc.

"I suppose you are all for givin' 'em equal rights and such", one of the guys said sarcastically to the old man.

"Nope", he replied, "I think we should keep things just like they are." (paraphrased)

"Well!", said the questioner, "I thought you were a liberal do-gooder...so you agree with the rest of us, huh? I'm glad to hear you don't want the damn N*****S getting too uppity, and........."

At this the old man stopped him..."No, you don't understand. It ain't like I don't think they've been treated unfairly, I just don't want to change things."

"Well, why not?"

"It's simple," said the old man," If somebody had stood on MY neck for 300 years, and then stepped back and said,"OK, you can get up now", I know what'd be the first thing I'd do when I got up!"

...it is a rare man who sees that view of the issue...and to this day, it makes me wonder how close to the truth he was....."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

It has been 35 years since Mac told me that story, and I am still mulling over all the implications of the various attitudes involved....but they ALL made things 'matter'.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:52 PM

And with that I'm off this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:51 PM

Of course I think that people 'new' to a country have someting important to 'bring to the table', but if they are made to feel unwelcome then their views aren't going to be heard where it's necessary, are they?

I think there is institutionalized racism at work. I thought I made that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:49 PM

Peace,

a person could assume by your use of the word "assimilation" and the phrase "sitting at the table" that you think that the groups of people who previously were "unwelcome" have no impact or influence on the systems that they "join" and that they bring nothing of value to the table. But that isn't what occurs and I don't think that what you meant, or is it?

I believe that "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts."

{Feel free to substitute a better mathematical or scientific quote or theorum or whatever for what I'm trying to say}.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:20 PM

"and sassimilation because a fact of life. "

S/B 'and assimilation becomes a fact of life.'

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 02:05 PM

"Does being dark matter?"

The question is a tough one because when I read 'dark' I think different in the context of the question.

When I was young many decades ago, people with physical challenges of various sorts were perceived to be very different in that they were not seen as 'complete' humans. It took years and years for enough of society to appreciate that all beings have humanity, spirit, soul, and all beings have an inalienable right to be treated with dignity. However, laws are not sufficient to change the treatment people receive from others. Schools have been awesome in that regard: having special needs kids interact with peers. Acceptance is not automatic, but acceptance does come eventually. The acknowledgement that public buildings should be accessible for people in wheel chairs was important because it then allowed inclusion and exposure and eventually enough familiarity to produce acceptance. That is important.

When people are 'allowed' to be strangers in their own country, they will be strangers. When the decisions are being made, and you (whoever you are) do not have a seat at the table nor a voice in the process, well--how would that make you feel?

Ghettos are a normal initial phenomenon when large groups of people move to another country. A study I read many years ago show that in the City of Montreal there were districts that contained say Jews who had newly come to Canada. As they developed an economic viability within the greater culture surrounding them, they moved from the district they lived in and sought better housing in more up-scale neighbourhoods. As the old district emptied, the next group would move in. (The group that did was Greek. And now they too have moved on to other areas.)

It is natural to seek others who speak your initial language, share your cultural experiences, eat the same food. After three generations, that all changes, and sassimilation because a fact of life.

So, that prompts a question that ties to the threads on poverty and affirmative action: If a country is ghetto-ized for longer than three generations, is that country practising prejudice or is the practise so institutionalized that only those at the bottom of the pile--those with the least voice/influence--know they are there?

Does being dark matter? Yes, IMO, and the reasons it still does after six or seven generations raises a few ugly questions. Who has not been invited to the table, and why have they not been invited?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Alice
Date: 19 May 07 - 01:10 PM

I remember working with a Japanese American graphic artist when we were the staff artists at the University. We had great conversations on the job while we worked. One I remember was about identifying and being identified by being a member of a group, whether that is Catholic, white, female, Japanese, American, Irish or whatever. It "matters" to know someone who has walked in your shoes, experienced the way people respond to the group with which you are identified, can relate to your life experience because they have shared the same experiences. Does it matter in what way? Appearance doesn't define us in some ways but it does in others, as people definitely still have prejudices, and we will have life experiences because of other people's prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:40 PM

One of my thoughts: Being dark matters when 'someone' makes it matter.

If someone employs discrimination to rate people negatively, OR uses 'affirmative action' to do positive things for a minority, it matters...to BOTH sides...in fact, it creates 'sides'. Any time a newscaster makes a statement like "Tiger Woods is the 1st Black golfer to ...." he has injected 'mattering' into a situation, whether it should be there or not.

Any time a person who IS dark...or any hue... accentuates notice of themselves AS dark, they make it matter. This can be as simple as wearing some form of 'traditional' clothing associated with their origins, or using vernacular and accents in speech, or participating in a festival celebrating their heritage....etc.
'Mattering' can be positive or negative, depending on how & when it is called up....(by either side[by which I mean by those OF the group, or those outside the group...I don't necessarily mean 'side' as enemies])...obviously, BOTH sides sometimes make color 'matter' at INappropriate times....and won't always agree on when his is.

You see why I hesitated commenting? It requires constant disclaimers and clarifications of terms and context to avoid misunderstandings.

I would love to live in a world where NOTHING mattered except getting along and respecting people according to behavior and shared interests....but people, by their very nature, classify themselves AND others by easily identifiable characteristics, and thus tend to MAKE differences, including being dark, matter even in areas where it should not.

I knew a woman once who worked in Head Start, the program to help pre-kindergarten kids. Someone asked her whether one of her clients was black.....she had to stop for a second and 'think' about it. She genuinely didn't classify her clients that way, and was as 'color-blind' as anyone I even knew....but this is not common.

I mentioned Tiger Woods above. Yes, he was the first 'dark' golfer to do various things, and newscasts often make that 'matter', even though his mother was Asian. You never hear him described as the first half-Asian golfer to do something. Yeah...'dark' matters when it is being constantly referred to. (Tiger hates the reference...)

In many ways, Azizi, YOU are saying being dark matters by noting the many songs and children's games from the African-American tradition...and sometimes just from the African sources. Just as Welsh or Scots or Irish folks note their traditions and language. By doing this you both cherish and celebrate a heritage, and in some ways promote continued differences. It is VERY difficult to say how much of this is positive and beneficial and how much it keeps race & color unnecessarily injected into a world where they are both matters of pride and issues of conflict every day.


(I ought to go back an rewrite all that 3 times before posting...but...my shop calls)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:21 PM

I came to the conclusion, long ago, that although the colour of a person's skin, or her/his ethnic affiliation, may be very important to that person it is none of my business and should have no effect on my dealings with her/him.

One thing which does concern me about this thread, though, is its 'killjoy' nature. The way in which a thread, which promised to be about fascinating 'cosmic things', like dark matter, turned into a thread about racism rather put my back up. I detect an element of the school of thought that opines that we should not even consider the wider Universe whilst cruelty and injustice exists in the human sphere. My own viewpoint is that an understanding of our place in the Universe gives us a better perspective on attitudes such as racism and reveals just how stupid, petty and ignorant such attitudes are.

And 'Star Trek' was only ever a soap opera with rudimentary SF trappings. The writers of this 'epic' consistently failed to think their plot devices through and were only really interested in the contrived 'conflicts' between their 2-dimensional characters. Another example, in my book, of narrow, parochial thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:37 AM

Correction, that last link was meant to be thread.cfm?threadid=81350&messages=187#1921700

Also, you may be interested in reading Mo The Caller's and my comments in that same thread about the use of the group referent "spades".

And because Mudcat conversations are never really over [unless the thread is closed], anyone who wants to could add their comments to that discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:38 AM

Here's a Mudcat repost of a children's rhyme which mentions race

Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Pazzion - PM
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:23 AM

I remember
Down Down Baby Down Down the rollercoaster
Sweet Sweet Baby I'll never let you go
Shimmy shimmy cocoa puff shimmy shimmy I
Shimmy shimmy cocoa puff shimmy shimmy I
I like coffee I like tea
I like a colored boy and he likes me
so step back white boy
you don't cause a cool colored boy gonna bet your behind
He'll beat it once he'll beat it twice
He'll beat it beat it beat it
So let's get the rhythm of the head
Ding dong
Sho' got the rhythm of the head head
Ding dong
Let's get the rhythm of the hands
(Clap,Clap)
Sho' got the rhythm of the hands
(Clap,Clap)
Let's get the rhythm of the feet
(Stomp, Stomp)
Sho' got the rhythm of the feet
(Stomp, Stomp)
Let's get the rhythm of the Hot Dog (While doing the snake)
Sho' got the rhythm of the Hot Dog
Ding dong, clap,clap,stomp,stomp,Hot Dog

-snip-

It seems to me that the race of the person reciting this rhyme would be pertinent. That person doesn't have to be non-White, but lines that mention race certainly suggest to me that these additions to the standard lyrics for this rhyme came from someone who is non-White.

"Traditional" versions of "Down Down Baby" {also known as Shimmy Shimmy Coco Puff" or some such spelling} had no mention of race and weren't confrontational. Instead, these "traditional" vesions focused on being down by the rollercoaster doing some "shimmy shimmy let's get the rhythm" motions. At least that's the way I remember this rhyme from my childhood in New Jersey in the 1950s.

Here's the earliest example that I've collected of a confrontational version of "Down Down" Baby:

Down, down, baby down by the roller coaster
Sweet, sweet baby I'll never let you go

Shemie, shemie coco butter, shemie shemie pop
I like coffee, I like tea, I like a black boy and he likes me
So step back white boy, you don't shine
I'll get the black boy to beat your behind

Last night and the night before
I met my boyfriend at the candy store
He bought me ice cream he bought me cake
He brought me home with a belly ache

Mama, mama, I feel sick
Call the doctor, quick, quick, quick
Doctor, doctor, will I die
Close your eyes and count to five
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, I'm Alive!
-Tonya T. {African American female}, memories of her childhood in Crawfordville, Georgia {1979 -1987}

-snip-

A Latina woman in New York sent me a version of this rhyme from her childhood in the 1980s which include the "I like a colored boy and he likes me" line but doesn't include the "step back white boy etc/beat your behind" lines.

If interested, you can read that example and other examples as well as my comments about these rhymes on http://www.cocojams.com/handclap_rhymes_example_0104.htm and on
thread.cfm?threadid=81350&messages=187#1494664

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:11 AM

To "lighten" this thread a bit, perhaps I should note that the title for this thread came from the honored Mudcat tradition of engaging in play on words for thread titles. Thus the thread "Dark Matters"
-whose link is given in my first post-resulted in this thread title "Does Being Dark Matter?"

In the context of this thread, the question "Does Being Dark Matter?" really is asking "Does race matter?"

As I have stated throughout this thread, I believer that there are times when race does matter and there are times when it doesn't.
And with regard to a separate but related question, in my opinion, there are also times when race should matter, and there are times when race shouldn't matter.

To give [other] examples when I believe race does and should matter, I'd like to turn your attention to the genre of folk culture that is my special interest at Mudcat-children's rhymes. First, here's just a bit of background-I've been collecting & "studying" children's rhymes since the mid 1980s. My collection work has primarily been through direct contacts I have with African American children in the Pittsburgh, PA area {mostly as a result of an after-school children's program I started in 1997, and through examples that I have gotten from various Internet websites including Mudcat, http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php ; and my website http://www.cocojams.com/ .

One of the things that I've concluded from my collection & analysis of children's rhymes [including reading Iona & Peter Opies' books on children's rhymes and other such books] is that race often-but not always-is a factor in which types of rhymes children recite, which vesions of specific rhymes children recite, and how children perform the rhymes that they recite. I have also found that the racial identity of the population from which a rhyme originated also provides information about the context of the rhyme and the meaning of slang and other words & phrases found in that rhyme.

For these reasons {and to gather information that "tests" this hypothesis}, particularly on Mudcat and on my website Cocojams, when people share examples of children's rhymes, I've encouraged them to include information about the race of the children who recited the example along with other demographical information such as gender, decade the rhyme was recited, and geographical location.

Though there has been a growing number of people on both these websites who provide demographical information, most people don't include their race or the race of their informants. I think one reason for this is that nowadays-at least in the USA-many people think that it is a sign of racial insensitivity if they make any reference what so ever about another person's racial identity or even their own racial identity. In this "kumbayah racial colorblind" stance, it's a no no to even refer to race or skin color as a means of describing a person.

In spite of the prevailing viewpoints that "race doesn't matter" and "it's not socially correct to publicly mention race", since I've started asking for this information, I have seen an increase on my website and on Mudcat of the number of people who will "buck the tide" and include information about the race of the person [usually themselves] who recite or have recited the children's rhymes that they are sharing.

In my next post to this thread, I'll share a few examples of children's rhymes where race appears to matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 May 07 - 06:25 AM

Thank you, Hilda Fish, for so succiently & so clearly articulating much of what I was trying to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: hilda fish
Date: 19 May 07 - 05:36 AM

I've been told so many times "Oh we are all Australian" which is a bit of a problem if you are Indigenous with a history and culture that was denied for so long along with our humanity, right to be citizens in our own country. The generic "Australian" becomes another way of making us invisible in the same way that saying "we are all American" denied the Darkness that connected to the Slave history, lynch mobs and the history and psychological/political relationship to the broader American society that this engendered.Things are getting better here, but still our history, our connection to land, our identity, are defined through a European construction. Dark is part of who we are and with that acknowledgement exists our history, our culture, our politics and so on. It is always amazing that people can say "oh she is Italian" or "she is Greek" without not only no problem, but a great deal of interest. Yet Dark (Blak) identity seems to be one of those areas which is resiled from, "oh she is human like the rest of us" as though there is a need to be reductive when colour becomes part of the equation. Interesting story: whenever I have gone through customs or anything in the past I get stopped and often searched. I've been told it is because I have a 'Middle Eastern" appearance. Since I've had my hair blonded I have had NO TROUBLE AT ALL!!! So what the hell is THAT all about? Dark or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:17 AM

hmm, if only Obama were a woman.

Oh well, he will best be served to be VP to Hillary for 8 years so he can be President later rather than sooner.

wait 8 years

"That way even the racists in this country will feel comfortable that a black man isn't going to free all the prisoners or be appreciably different from any other leader."
woman black historian of Moyer's journal tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 07 - 11:47 PM

Collins' quote would work equally well for women of any colour...we've all laboured under the oppression of a patriarchal world made up of mostly white males. (Sorry, guys, present company excepted.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:44 PM

Yes, Rap...we all bleed red. That really is all that matters. Dogs, cats, elephants, and yes, even apes and chimps bleed red. So THERE! Chongo!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:42 PM

I am a person of color.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:41 PM

I think the lack of Black involvement on the forum reflects the lack of Black involvement in White male controlled cultural activities in general.

Black feminist Patrician Hill Collins is much more articulate about it however:

"Because elite White men control Western structures of knowledge validation, their interests pervade the themes, paradigms, and epistemologies of traditional scholarship...Black feminists thought's core themes of work, family, sexual politics, motherhood, and political activism rely on paradigms that emphasize the importance of intersecting oppressions in shaping the US matrix of domination. But expressing these themes and paradigms has not been easy because Black women have had to struggle against White male interpretations of the world." (pp 251-252, Black Feminist Thought.)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:31 PM

So, my Board member, Andy, says, "My uncle and aunt haven't voted since Kennedy was shot. They don't think it's worth it anymore." And I try to argue with him, and finally another Board member, Roger, says, "Andy, do you know what would happen if all of the Hispanics in Idaho, or even a majority, would vote? We'd have a Democratic State House and Senate and Governor, and the people in Washington would be Hispanic, too!" And Andres Guerra replied, "I'm a journalist and an activist and I keep telling them that, but I'm starting to think they're right."

So Andy's sort of bronze colored and I'm blond and fair skinned and so's Roger (who came back two years ago from his Fulbright) and so what? I learned a long time ago everybody's pink inside, and Jerry Falwell's blood and Adolph Hitler's blood was just as red as that of Shaka Zulu and Dr. King.

Or mine. Or yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:15 PM

Azizi: That's twice in a week that this subject has come up. Hope everything's okay there.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:45 PM

This is all very interesting but I too must think more. I believe the Somali people (of colour) are NOT negroid? And consider themselves to be 'white'?

Why is it that we can note hair or eye colour in passing, or in a description, but not skin colour? To me, just noting the skin colour is not racist, but deciding who or what that person is based on skin colour alone is.

All blondes are dumb. All red heads are sexy. Polish people are 'stupid' Irish people are drunks, etc. All are just as racist as deciding who and what a person is based on skin colour.

Proably more later.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:18 PM

JohnInKansas, thanks for psoting that link to that http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/28341 article.

Here's an excerpt from that article that I found particularly interesting:

"When the DNA samples were analyzed, decoded and compared to the subject's cor [skin color], the Brazilian population showed a surprising deviation from the earlier Porto [European] and São Tomé [African] control experiments. In samples from both urban centers and rural districts, the distribution of African alleles was the same for the "black" and "intermediate" Brazilians: Both groups' average AAI values fell between the European and African ends of the spectrum. There was wide variation in the samples—some of the individuals in these groups even showed AAI values in the same range as the Portuguese controls; others resembled the São Tomé Africans. In other words, racial appearance had no relationship to the degree of genetic identity with either the Europeans or Africans. According to Pena "We were surprised at the very poor correlation, but we should not have been. From an ancestry point of view there is almost complete mixture [between Europeans and Africans in the population]."
-snip-

Here's another excerpt from that article:

The white Brazilians also showed a high proportion of African allelic markers, although the distribution was not as pronounced as in the black and intermediate groups. The reason for this became apparent when the identity of the markers was considered—the OCA2 gene, part of the test battery, encodes a protein that regulates pigment production, meaning that the marker itself contributed to the phenotype. When this site was excluded from the AAI calculation, there were no significant differences in the African genomic ancestry of black and white study participants.

Does the same genetic pattern exist in the United States, which also has a large population of African descent? Probably not, says Mark Shriver at Penn State University, whose lab developed the marker set used by Pena. As Shriver points out, "there was no such thing as a one-drop [of blood] rule in Brazil," meaning that Brazil never developed the emphasis on ancestry over appearance that is found in its North American neighbor. As a result, mixed-race marriage per se did not carry the same social stigma in Brazil as it did in the United States. Pena agrees with Shriver's characterization of racial genetics in the U.S., but adds that more work is needed to distinguish the social and genetic elements of race."

-snip-

If such a study were done in the USA, my unscientific prediction would be that there would be plenty "White" people who would have African allelic markers. I seem to recall reading that such a study was done in South Africa some time ago, and some White South Africans were found to have African markers...

The American definition of who is Black {in this context,
I mean "African American"} is that a person who has any Black African ancestry is Black. Another way to say this is that "one drop of 'Black blood' makes a person Black".

Imo, this definition is at its core racist as it considers Black African ancestry to be a contaminant. One way that this "one drop of Black blood" makes a person Black" definition could be challenged and eradicated is for those people of mixed White/Black ancestry whether it be first generation or not to declare that they are White no matter how dark their skin color is and not matter how tightly curled their hair is.

However, since visual clues are so heavily used by people in the United States {and elsewhere?} to determine other people's racial category, having dark skinned people declare that they are White, might get very interesting.

But since racial self-identification has been the recent practice at census times and at other times, as long as mixed race people who are declaring their Whiteness aren't rejecting Blackness because they consider it less than White, I'm all for this approach.

But then again, there is power in numbers. And since so many of us are mixed race, politically African Americans would suffer if droves of people who are now thought of [and who think of themselves]
as being Black left to join a White or a Mixed Race category.

So, I may need to re-think that "declare yourself White or Mixed Race" approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:50 PM

Since, here, no-one can know the skin colour or ethnicity of another unless that other chooses to reveal it, to whom does it matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:57 PM

Since I wrote and edited my previous post, Azizi has related the story of her daughter and the man in the ice cream shop. It looks like we are on the same wavelength here.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:53 PM

Just a couple of few thoughts:

I have found that like minded people don't have to look alike.

**

One of the things I like best about the Internet is that people who have similar situational needs and/or similar interests can "meet", share, support each other, and work together even though they may be miles apart. I also very much like the fact that via the Internet people can "meet" and converse with people from different cultures, and learn about those cultures. I think both these things are a plus. And both of these reasons are why I like Mudcat.   

**

Here's another true story:

Some years ago I went to visit a woman who lived in Minnesota who I had met because both of us were members of a national board. Every year the board met in the urban city of Minneapolis-St. Paul. However, this woman lived some distance from that area in a more rural community. She invited me to come one day early to the board meeting and stay with her. When she invitated me, the woman shared with me that there were very few people who were members of a minority group who lived in her area. Because the woman and I had platonically hit it off, I accepted her invitation, and she met me at the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport and drove me to her town. At one point during the next day, the woman had to go to work, and she suggested that I take a walk to a particular part of her town where there were arts & crafts shops. I did so. At one shop, I rounded the corner and almost bumped into a very dark skinned woman. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that she was of East Indian descent. The woman looked at me and I looked at her, and we both smiled. Then we nodded our heads at each other and went on our way.

I share this story to say that sometimes there is a kinship among people of minority groups particularly in settings where they are "the only ones". True, I may have read more in that smile than was really meant, but imo, that East Indian woman and I recognised that we shared something that the White board member and I could never share. Perhaps I am reading more into it, but imo, the East Indian woman and I shared the fact that we are members of a minority group within a majority population {or what we experienced as a majority population}. And that fact meant {means} a whole host of things including the fact that we had emotionally survived the poison of prejudice and had grown stronger in spite of those experiences.

Does being dark matter? In that instance, with that East Indian woman and me-an African American woman who is far lighter than she was-yes, I believe even for that short moment of recognition, it did matter to us. And I think that was a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:45 PM

Azizi: I think the reason I was so shocked and upset was that it went without saying for me that this young woman, whom I shall call "Betty" here, was never thought of by anyone (including herself) as being part of a minority. The incident happened at a college in the North West of Britain. Betty was a talented, intelligent, attractive and industrious student. She had lovely manners and was popular with the other students.
In her final year, she received threatening letters, with disgusting insults from another student. I believe the main issue was one of sexual jealousy. However, the fact that she had Sri Lankan origins was seen as a lever by the bully. The letters were horribly racist. I was actually told of these letters and shown them by the management of the college. Unfortunately, Betty would not make a complaint or approach me directly. Officially I did not know about it. So there was nothing I could do. I believe I would have found and proved the culprit had I been in a position to do so.
I think that a lot of what comes over as racism is simply the identification of a physical characteristic to identify someone, whom one is in dispute with. For instance, if a fat man shoves me, I might call him, "A fat bastard". Of course, the problem I have is not that he is fat, but that he has shoved me. However, in the heat of the moment I would shout out the first (and possibly unkindest) thing I could to identify my antagonist.
Had Betty's tormentor been exposed as a racist and a writer of hate mail, I have no doubt at all that she herself would have been shunned by most of the other students. Racism was not even partly respectable at our college and most students despised it. That is probably why a series of racist insults came as such a shock to Betty - and indeed myself. First and foremost she was a fellow student - and it would never have occurred to most of us to identify her in any other way.
I do not know what Betty's reasons were for not coming to me directly. She may have been so humiliated by the horrible content of the letters that she did not feel able to tell me. At any rate, I was very upset at not being able to act and I was very upset that she was not able to enjoy her final months at college because of a cowardly bully. I suppose it upset me a lot because it showed me very clearly that there were limitations to what I was able to do about bullying. I expect that Betty has long since got over it. I feel choked about it to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:41 PM

Ahhhhh, one other thing...

I reckon if their were more black (dark) folks here in Mudville one might be able to start a blues thread without it fallin' off the board in less than 24 hours...

(But, Bobert, how can you say that??? Not all black folk like the blues...)

No, not all black folks like the blues but I'm stickin' with my theory...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:39 PM

In Minorca and in parts of Wales I have been made to feel very unwelcome purely due to my English accent. I think that just about every one of us has some vestige of prejudice lurking somewhere. It's how we deal with it when it arises in us or in others.

There is a Stephen King book where he lets on, halfway through the story, that one of the characters is black. That brought me up with a real start and made me think about my perception of people. I was also made to think when discussing matching my daughter with a young man I worked with, my 'works baby' Nigel who was black. My stepdaughter said "Mmmm, brown babies!" and that brought me up with a start. Then I had to face the fact that there could be some prejudice there.

I hope that, nowadays, I take people on what they are like, not what the outer skin looks like. I know some real excuses for human beings who are of the same racial group as me and some of different racial groups that I am honoured to have as good friends. My life has, I hope, taught me to pause before making a judgement based on race or colour.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:37 PM

One of the things I really like about our evolving on-line communities is that, in many cases, you don't know (and don't need to know) who's black and who's white. Exactly!

A note: not all Black Americans are of African descent.

I don't know how, but I think I have literally become colour-blind when it comes to seeing what colour people are. I have had to ask whoever I am with to tell me what they see as sometimes I cannot tell if someone is black, white or anything in-between. It is a curious phenomenon which started a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:32 PM

Actually, I'm thinking more along the line of linguistics as a method of finding out the 'real' stuff about both subcultures and cultures. It is, imo, impossible for language NOT to impact culture (the idea is not new), certainly to respond to the direction a culture takes and maybe direct the path a culture takes. Right now I'm not settled as to how best to say what I'm thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:28 PM

Well, while generally being somewhat satisfied with the cross section of thought and philosophy expressed here in Mudland, I personally would welcome more black members and the perspectives that these members could bring to the forum...

On the "poverty" thread, for instance, since there is such a high percentage of black (dark) folk living in poverty compared to white (light) folks I would have loved to have had more or even a single black (dark) member involved in that discussion... Okay, there may have been a black (dark) member but, if so, that member did no identify his or herself as such... Now I am not saying that a black (dark) member would have brought a different perspective, mind you, but if had there been enough such members, I belive the discussion would have been enhanced...

But it's not just about povery but lots of issues that a somewhat segretgated society faces...

Actually, truth be known, I did agree with Bill Clinton's call for a discussion about race... I think it is overdue... I am encouraged with the "deep regrets" for their involvement in slavery that Virginia and Maryland have voted upon but don't think the discussion ends there...

Okay, maybe I am wanderin' off topic with that but....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,blindlemonsteve
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:26 PM

I´m with peace on this one, gonna see how it goes for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:23 PM

Here's a true story.

My 30ish old daughter owns a Volkswagan Jhetta. When she takes her car for service, she goes about 20 miles outside the city of Pittsburgh for that service. This past Monday, while she was waiting for the repairman to finish working on her car, she decided to walk back down the road a bit to an ice cream shop that she had seen. She told me that the only people in the shop when she entered was the female salesperson and a man who "kept staring at her". My daughter said that the salesperson was very curt and abrupt with her, and the man kept staring at her. My daughter bought her ice cream and left. When my she got back to the car dealership, my daughter went to pay her bill. While she was doing that my daughter-who is a very gregarious person-told that female salesperson about her experience in the ice-cream store. The salesperson said "We don't get many people like you around here. That's probably why that man was staring at you and that woman was like that with you." My daughter told me that it took her a minute before she understood that the woman meant "Black people" when she said "people like you". In response to that woman's comments, my daughter said something like "Oh". She then paid her bill, and left. When she told me this story, my daughter said that she hadn't even thought about race while she was in that area because the people at the car dealership had always been super nice to her.

I share this story to say that there was a time when Black people taught their children to be alert and aware {beware} of prejudiced people and racists when they go to an unfamiliar setting. I admit that I haven't schooled my daughter in this regard as much as I probably should have. Unfortunately, because there are still people who are prejudiced and there are still people who are racist, if people are raised to not consider their racial identity, they may be putting themselves at risk.

Imo, this is an example of when race shouldn't matter, but unfortunately does. Of course, the same situation could have happened in reverse {meaning a White person in a non-White setting}.

All this to say that it seems to me that we have a lot more work to do before we reach the point where differences never make any difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:56 PM

I am following this thread, but I'd like to think about it for a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:55 PM

A somewhat dated article, from the November-December issue of American Scientist may be of interest, even if a bit off the "mood" of the thread thus far.

"Black" and "White" Not Quite Right appeared in a marginalia column. Some things at this magazine's site require special access, but I believe this one should be "publicly available."

The article must be read pretty carefully, since it really applies only to the Brazilian population studied. The "killer statement" - out of context a bit here - was:

"..., there were no significant differences in the African genomic ancestry of black and white study participants."

While I didn't find the result surprising, especially in context, knowing as much as possible about the reality may be useful when faced with those adherent to unreal beliefs.

For reference, publication of the full study report is cited as appearing in the January 2003 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:45 PM

I'm spending a lot of my internet time these days at forums, chatrooms, message boards, etc., converned with the very slow and difficult recovery of my city, New Orleans, from the levee failures of August '05.

One of the things I really like about our evolving on-line communities is that, in many cases, you don't know (and don't need to know) who's black and who's white. Indeed, there are some familiar correspondents (who use "handles" or pseudonyms rather than their names) whose gender I'm not even sure of.

You can certainly tell who is a homeowner and who is not, who is living back in town and who's still stuck in exile somewhere, and of course it's easy to see who's articulate and presumably educated and who has difficulty expressing themselves. Most of the people seem to me to be "pretty much just like me," which I might mistakenly assume would include being Caucasian. But I know that at least half of these neighbors are African-American.

The city was 67% black before the storm, including very many educated middle-class homeowner types, so ~ even allowing for the difference of racial representation among income groups, differences in computer access and interest, etc. ~ about half of us who find ourselves in this crazy situation are statistically likely to be black. The folks I meet in person these days at various civic meetings belong to all races, too. Of course, in person, I can't help but see how "dark" a given individual may or may not be. When we "meet" on the internet, on the other hand, pigmentation is not an issue at all, except when specifically under discussion.

Race-related topics do occasionally arise, of course, but when the subject at hand is corruption, broken promises, or on the other hand praise and thanks for volunteer help, etc., etc., etc., it is VERY nice to exist and communicate in a "world" that is truly color-blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:39 PM

Thanks to all who have posted thus far.

alanabit, I very much appreciate you sharing your story about your college days. With regard to the girl who thanked you because she felt that you "really stuck up for us blacks." I'm wondering why you were shocked and upset because of her comment.

I recall that you don't live in the USA. Would you please share where this incident took place? I ask that because maybe that information is pertinent as to why you had the reaction to the girl's statement. Could it be that "black" was a derogatory group referent where and when this occurred and it surprised you that the girl used that term to refer to other students who had some African ancestry?

Btw, I believe you when you wrote that "I had never primarily thought of her as being "black". Of course, imo, "primarily" is the operative word in that sentence. And/But also it's my experience and viewpoint that when you are a within a majority setting and you are a member of a minority group-whether it be a racial, ethnic, religious, gender, or otherwise minority-membership in that particular group is often more defining to you than if you were a member of that group and always lived and moved and had your being around other people who were also members of that group. For example, it seems to me that largely in the absence of non-Black people, being part of the Black race not as much a focus among Black people in Africa as it is among people of African descent elsewhere where Black people are in a minority {because there are fewer of us then there are of them}. In African nations, instead of the catch-all Black groups you have groups who differentiate themselves and who are differentiated by others by ethnic, religious, and cultural differences. While it is true that there are many ethnic, religious, economic class, and cultural sub-groups within the catch-all grouping called "Black Americans", I believe that most Black Americans consider these ethnic, religious, and cultural differences to be vastly unimportant in comparison with the fact that all of us have experienced institutional racism and also have experienced or may experience personal racism because of our Black African ancesty.

I don't see anything wrong with persons defining themselves as members of a [or more than one] racial, or ethnic, or religious or gender orientation group. That act of self-definition may be "just" a statement of fact. But it seems to me that the problem is that people within and/or outside of that group make positive or negative value judgements about that group compared to others, and personally or institutionally act on that positive and negative valuation.

And unfortunately, I suppose I should have said "problems" instead of "problem".

Be that as it may, alanabit, again I thank you for your sharing your story. I appreciate it and I appreciate you.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bert
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:20 PM

...sometimes I think that being dark should matter, and sometimes I think that being dark shouldn't matter...


Personally I think that being dark shouldn't matter. When I worked in Iran I was the only white guy on the site (although some of the Iranians might disagree). One time (after about six months on the remote site) we went into a bar in town and there were a few English guys there. It was quite strange, they seemed like foreigners to me.

Of course that shouldn't have mattered either.

But we might as well get used to being dark because the dark genes are dominant so the whole world will probably end up dark anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:12 PM

June, 1963, Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri. The Platoon Sergeant is addressing my Basic Training Platoon (1-C-2-2) for the first time:

Now, some of you guys are white and come from the city. Some of you guys are white and come from the country. Some of you guys are negroes and come from the city, and some are negroes who come from the country.

I'm not going to put up with race stuff here. To me, you're all a bunch of dickheads and you're all green. Now start getting squared away.

Presence or lack of melanin has never meant much to me or my family. You're either a decent human being or you're a shit. Simple.

(By the way, one of the "negroes", a really quiet kid from Alabama, did some of the best hand jive I've ever heard. When he got going the whole company -- 210 men -- would stand around and enjoy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:22 PM

Well Azizi, you have asked quite a question. I've never seen it expressed in quite that way. I've 'almost' started to type several times, but decided I wasn't ready to approach it in the multiple levels I think it requires. The more I think about it, the more important it feels.
I am fairly sure I won't approach it in all the usual ways. For one thing, as you indicate, one needs to consider the nuances between 'does' it matter? and 'should' it matter?....and why?...and to whom?...and when?

   There are as many shades of meaning in some of the questions as there are shades of 'dark'..(Once in my life I met a man who was actually black)

Before I get in over my head and end up writing a 12 page introduction...*grin*...let me ponder a bit more. (I have a major craft show in a couple of weeks, so I am not focused on Mudcat heavily)...but I'll see what I can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:47 PM

I've spent a lot of time in chat rooms and exchanging PMs on a Black Gospel Music website. On there, I guess I could ask, does being light matter? For the most part it doesn't, because I've made several friends there and color is rarely an issue. Or even commented on. There was one person in the Chatroom who attacked me violently because I am white, and told me I shouldn't come to the site. But, that was a single exception, and all of my friends came to my defense.

All of your points are well expressed and taken, Azizi. I think that here on Mudcat, folks iz folks, pretty much. I could also ask does being Christian matter? Not a whole lot of Christians on here.
My answer to that would be "no." Yeah, there are always a few threads about folks what believe in God, or Christians, but I don't pay them no mind. For starters, I can understand where the anger toward Christians comes from, having a fair amount of it myself for those who are self-righteous and use Christianity as a tool for grabbing power. I'm quite happy here. If people can put up with me, I can put up with them. Should be able to, even if they can't...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:18 PM

Have you any idea how many people with dark skin use the Mudcat?    and how would you know anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:13 PM

Exactly Jacqui. I always liked Paul Robeson's statement that a soul has no colour.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 May 07 - 11:27 AM

I think that it is what is on the inside that should matter more.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:56 AM

Well, I think you have done a lot of work on this subject.
Maybe I can tell a story, which may be relevant here?
I worked for nine years before I finally went to college. That experience may have been on my side, when my fellow students elected me Site President for the whole three years I was there. I enjoyed representing students through the student union and I took the job very seriously. Probably because of my experiences at boarding school, I have always had a particularly short fuse on the subject of bullying. During my time I was involved in cases, which involved bullying in which race and sexuality were factors. I did not feel qualified to become a spokesman for either gay people or black people. Both groups are perfectly capable of speaking out on their own behalf. When they were bullied, I backed them to the hilt. All the people I represented deserved decent treatment.
At the going down dinner, I was awarded college colours, which rather moved me. A well meaning young woman upset me more than she could have imagined by saying, "Well done Alan. You really stuck up for us blacks." I was shocked and upset, even though the remark was well meant and came from a very pleasant and intelligent woman. You see, I had never primarily thought of her as being "black". She was a nice person, a good student and she deserved to enjoy her time there as much as anyone else did. I was (and still am) very sad to think that she was hindered by malice and ignorance. My eyes are misting up even now, twenty-three years later.
What do I think? You must know now.

Subject: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:00 AM

Sometimes I reflect on how Mudcat thread conversations would be different if more people of color posted here or if these conversations were taking place on either a majority Black forum or a forum that had many more Black people and other people of color.

Take, for example, the current thread Dark Matter
thread.cfm?threadid=101707&messages=39 .

When I first read that title, I thought the topic of the discussion would be "dark skin color". However, it appears that the topic of that thread is actually the discovery of dark matter in space.

I've found the subject of dark matter in space to be interesting in and of itself. But for a number of reasons, the article which prompted the Mudcat thread on Dark Matter- http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/05/16/dark.matter.ring.reut/index.html -caused me to think about how invisible dark matter can be in the real world- and on Mudcat.

Take for example this longish excerpt from that article:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- A hazy ring of dark matter spawned by a colossal cosmic crash eons ago offers the best evidence to date that vast amounts of this mysterious stuff reside in the universe, scientists said Tuesday.

Images taken by NASA's orbiting Hubble Space Telescope allowed astronomers to detect this ring of dark matter created by the collision of two galaxy clusters 5 billion light-years from Earth.

"This is the strongest evidence yet for the existence of dark matter," astronomer Myungkook James Jee of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore told reporters.

Astronomers believe dark matter -- as opposed to ordinary matter making up the stars, planets and the like -- comprises about 85 percent of the universe's material, but evidence of it has been difficult to come by.

Dark matter cannot be directly seen. It does not shine or reflect light, but astronomers infer its existence in galaxy clusters by observing how its gravity bends the light given off by even more faraway galaxies. They do not know what it is made of, but think it could be a kind of particle."

-snip-

I know that the first article had nothing whatsoever to do with race. But juxtapose that excerpt with this one from an editorial review of Ralph Ellison's book "Invisible Man":

"We rely, in this world, on the visual aspects of humanity as a means of learning who we are. This, Ralph Ellison argues convincingly, is a dangerous habit. A classic from the moment it first appeared in 1952, Invisible Man chronicles the travels of its narrator, a young, nameless black man, as he moves through the hellish levels of American intolerance and cultural blindness. Searching for a context in which to know himself, he exists in a very peculiar state. "I am an invisible man," he says in his prologue. "When they approach me they see only my surroundings, themselves, or figments of their imagination--indeed, everything and anything except me."
http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Man-Ralph-Ellison/dp/0679732764

When I think of outer space & race, in relation to popular culture, one of the first things that pops into my mind is the Star Trek character Uhura.

As any fan of the American television series Star Trek knows, Uhura was a beautiful, dark skinned woman who was the communication commander on the original television series.

In its overview of the original Star Trek series, the author of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series
writes:

"At a time when racial segregation was still firmly entrenched in many areas of the United States, Roddenberry envisaged a multi-racial and mixed-gender crew, based on his assumption that racial prejudice and sexism would not exist in the 23rd century. He also included recurring characters from alien races, including Spock, who was half human and half Vulcan, united under the banner of the United Federation of Planets...

The second pilot introduced the main characters: Captain Kirk (William Shatner), chief engineer Lieutenant Commander Scott (James Doohan) and Lieutenant Sulu (George Takei); Sulu's title in this episode was Ship's Physicist (changed to Helmsman in subsequent episodes). Chief medical officer and the captain's confidante Dr. Leonard McCoy (DeForest Kelley) (a Dr. Piper was present on the pilot), Yeoman Janice Rand (Grace Lee Whitney) and communications officer Lieutenant Uhura (Nichelle Nichols) were introduced later. Roddenberry's inclusion of the Asian Sulu and black Uhura, both of them intelligent, well-spoken professionals, was a bold move when most television characters of the time were white and those who weren't were often presented in a highly stereotypical manner."

-snip-

While I certainly applaud Star Trek for including some non-stereotyped non-White characters, when I watched that series I do recall wondering where did all the other people of color go-long time passing? I asked this question since it seemed that, with the exception of Uhuru and Sulu, the rest of the crew of the Starship Enterprise was made up of White people. Okay, there were a few other nameless Black crew members scattered here and there in a some episodes of that original series. But, still, the crew was largely made up of White people.

Does that matter? Imo, Yes. I'm talking more than role models here, but I believe that role modeling is an important factor of why it matters that television shows are integrated with non-racially and ethnically stereotyped characters.

Also, does race matter and should one's racial identity matter while discussing racial and/or non-racial topics on Internet discussion forums?

Imo, sometimes yes and sometimes no. Sometimes the fact that a person posting on the Internet is of one race or another [or more than one race] can add context, perspective, information, authenticity, and insight to the discussion. There are other times when a person's race is of much lesser relevance or of no relevance at all to the discussion. Admittedly, it's not always easy to determine when being dark should or should not matter on the Internet and-in real life.

Imo, "Does being dark matter?" is a different question than "Should being dark matter?" I believe that, eradicating institutional racism should be one goal. Another goal should be recognizing race as a descriptor without ascribing any good or bad connotations or values to that descriptor. I don't believe that racial/ethnic colorblindness is an appropriate goal.

All this to say, sometimes I think that being dark should matter, and sometimes I think that being dark shouldn't matter.

What do you think?