BS: shooting in DC? - U.S. Holocaust Museum

Subject: BS: shooting in DC?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

DEVELOPING
Shooting Reported at U.S. Holocaust Museum
Officials are investigating report of gunshots at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in downtown Washington. A police spokeswoman said the report came in at 12:52 p.m.

D.C. fire department spokesman Alan Etter said a police officer had been shot outside the museum. It was not immediately clear what agency the officer was from, or how serious the injuries were. Debbi Wilgoren

CLOSE

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM

Shooting reported at Holocaust Museum in Washington

Story Highlights
NEW: Schoolteacher visiting Holocaust Museum says he heard a "boom"

Private security guard is one of those wounded, officials say

Fire official says at least two people were wounded

updated 3 minutes ago

   
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Gunfire at the entrance of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum wounded at least two people Wednesday, emergency officers said.


Gunfire was reported near the Holocaust Museum in Washington on Wednesday.

A private security guard and another person were wounded, according to officials of the D.C. police and fire department.

Emergency vehicles converged on the scene near the Capitol Mall.

Dave Pearson, a 6th grade teacher in the Washington, D.C., area, said he was on the museum's fourth floor when he heard a loud noise.

"At the time, we're visiting and all of a sudden there's like a boom, and all of a sudden they told us to stop where we're at," he told CNN's Ed Henry.

"Only thing we heard was a boom, and that was it."

A woman who did not give her name said that she understood the shooting happened inside the museum near the security checkpoint at the entrance.

She said she was quickly evacuated.

"We did see yellow tape down the hall when we were being rushed out," she said. "They came in and said we had to leave right away and they got us out.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: maeve
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:59 PM

I found a little more information Here-Washington Post


maeve

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: jeffp
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:00 PM

According to sources cited by CNN, the shooter is an 88-year-old white supremacist.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/10/AR2009061001768.html?hpid=topnews:


"A law enforcement source identified the gunman as James W. von Brunn, 88, who is known to authorities as a white supremacist. On a Web site he apparently maintains extolling a "Holy Western Empire," von Brunn says he served in the U.S. Navy during World War II, worked for 20 years as an advertising executive and film producer in New York and then became "an artist and author" living on Maryland's Eastern Shore."

**

SPLC: Shooter had deep ties to far-right extremists
by Jed Lewison
Wed Jun 10, 2009 at 12:38:26 PM PDT

"Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center says the SPLC had been tracking James von Brunn's involvement with right-wing extremists, including neo-Nazis and white supremacists, since the 1970s."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/10/740906/-SPLC:-Shooter-had-deep-ties-to-far-right-extremists

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM

You can't follow ALL the nutcases 24/7..... they will manage to get by... and the NRA won't let us take away their guns, so this will keep happening on a semi-regular basis.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM

"Holocaust museum shooter reportedly white supremacist James von Brunn.
This afternoon, a gunman apparently shot at least one person at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. MSNBC is reporting that the suspected shooter, who also sustained gunshot wounds, is James Von Brunn, a white supremacist born in 1920. Brunn has been approvingly cited on Stormfront, a national white supremacist website. He is apparently the author of a tract called, "Kill the Best Gentiles," which his website describes as "a new, hard-hitting exposé of the JEW CONSPIRACY to destroy the White gene-pool." Brunn, a WWII veteran, also wrote a screed on President Obama's citizenship that was re-posted to popular right-wing message board Free Republic...

A Department of Homeland Security report leaked earlier this year — and subsequently retracted — warned of right-wing extremists "that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups)."

UPDATE Free Republic has now deleted the thread in which von Brunn's writings were posted and linked to.

UPDATE Last year, Brunn wrote an article praising Hitler and calling America "a Third-World racial garbage-dump."..

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/06/10/brunn-holocaust-shooter/

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:03 PM

I guess we can be sort of thankful he was not well enough organized to do more damage.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM

Speaking of organizations: People outside of the UK can add Folk Against Fascism as their Facebook friend and/or their MySpace friend.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=114616997574

http://www.myspace.com/folkagainstfascism

Also, visit this Mudcat thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=121472&messages=125

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

Would that all terrorists were 88 years old. Would make them easier to catch...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM

88!! You'd think he had enough to do, somehow!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: fretless
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:54 PM

The museum guard, initially wounded by Von Brunn, has now been reported to have died.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:59 PM

I suspect at 88 he figured he didn't have much to lose. I wonder what his end game was, if he had one.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:11 PM

from here



"Von Brunn has a racist, anti-Semitic Web site and wrote a book titled "Kill the Best Gentiles."

In 1983, he was convicted of attempting to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve Board and served more than six years in prison. He was arrested two years earlier outside the room where the board was meeting, carrying a revolver, knife and sawed-off shotgun. At the time, police said Von Brunn wanted to take the members hostage because of high interest rates and the nation's economic difficulties."


So, he had committed a felony- and thus could not legally get a gun.

BillD is wrong- he had to break the existing laws to get the gun.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:14 PM

Oy! These gun obsessives are amazing. Do they jump up every time there's a suicide bombing and defend the right to stockpile explosive belts?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:34 PM

These anti-gun obsessives are amazing. Here is a case where all the present laws say the person shouls never have had a gun, and they think that another law would do anything other than disarm the law-abiding citizen, making them easy victims for criminals.



"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The suspect in Wednesday's fatal shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is James von Brunn, an 88-year-old white supremacist from Maryland, two law enforcement officials told CNN.

Von Brunn served six years in prison on federal attempted kidnapping, assault and firearms charges after what he called a "legal, nonviolent citizens arrest" of members of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors.

On his Web site, "Holy Western Empire," von Brunn said he was "convicted by a Negro jury, Jew/Negro attorneys, and sentenced to prison for eleven years by a Jew judge."

"He is in our files going back way into the 1980s," said Heidi Beirich, a researcher for the Montgomery, Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center.

"He has extremely long history with neo-Nazis and white supremacists. He's written extremely incendiary publications, raging about Jews, blacks and the like." "

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:32 PM

"BillD is wrong- he had to break the existing laws to get the gun. "

ummm... as the situation now stands, illegally obtaining a gun doesn't seem to deter them much. There people who 'legally' have access to guns who will happily sell...or give... guns to others.
My point was, the laws supported BY the NRA will not allow enough latitude for reducing the access to guns. Stating that: "That naughty fellow broke the law....and if the old guy survives, we sure will prosecute him!" will not be much solace to the guard's family.

We don't even have much latitude in stopping people like him..(and the anti-abortion wing-nuts).. from inciting the extremists to violence on hundreds of web sites.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:36 PM

I agree with you BillD. So the best solution is to keep them from having that freedom of speech that allows them to incite. To Hell with the Bill Of Rights! Got to make it safe, regardless of the cost!

( sarcasm above, for thse who do not know me)

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: open mike
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:45 PM

since he (the gunman) does not believe the halocaust existed,
he is trying to create a disaster all on his own...

sad.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

...and inappropriate sarcasm under the circumstances. (from one who knows you mean well.)

Freedom of speech IS a great and important right.... but the old saw about "shouting "fire" in a crowded building" needs to be remembered.
Shouting on a web site "we must ACT against those who would trample our Anglo-Saxon heritage" is kinda 'inciting', don'tcha think?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:54 PM

So, we can throw out the rest of the Bill of Rights, whenever it seems like a useful thing to do.


Shouting fire in a crowded building is the equivalent of a fully automatic weapon- which is ( and has since 1933 ) been illegal.

If someone so well known to be a felon, and being watched ( per the article) can get a gun illegally, what law can you pass that would keep him from getting one?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:20 PM

Automatic weapons were banned by the National Firearms Act (NFA) in 1934.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM

Sorry, my mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:32 PM

"
So, we can throw out the rest of the Bill of Rights, whenever it seems like a useful thing to do."

I didn't say that, and you KNOW that's a straw man....

"...what law can you pass that would keep him from getting one?" Oh, the tempation to tell you!

I can't pass ANY law that would make a difference...and neither can anyone else as long as NRA scare tactics makes us (US type 'us') willing to just accept a few hundred deaths & injuries every year as the price for this 'freedom' for average guys to keep dangerous toys.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM

(and please don't use the "cars & knives cause problems too" argument again? Please?)

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:42 PM

Ain't no one advocatin' "throwing out the Bill of Rights", bb... That is just knee-jerkism at its best on yer part...

Just as on the other thread about guns, you don't want a discussion about the abiguity of the language of the 2nd ammendment... You and th NRA just want reasonable people to shut the fu*k up... And if we don't then ya'll don't have no problem if folks like this nut just shut us up by assasinatin' us...

That's purdy much what it biols down to with the right wing... The entire last part of the 20th century was marked with right winged people assasinating progressives... You have to go back to Huey Long in the 30's to find the last rigyhtie that was assasinated... Since then, bb, yer side has had no problems with using assasination as one of it's terrorist tools...

That is the way it is... No dodgin' it... Now, to wit, we have lunies right wing folks who have captured the airwaves (which are supposed to be owned by the public) to preach hatred...

There will be more right wingers assasinating progressives until we call a halt to right wingers thinking that's it's perfectly okay to yell "Fire!!!" in a crowded movie theather...

But, yeah, I've heard all the right wing arguments... They love to spout off "strick construction" and "judical activism" when it means that they can let any right winged nutball to not only have unfettered access to high powered waepons but also unfettered access to hate programing that streams over the publicly owned airwaves...

Home Land Security Secretary Napolitano warned of this and the right wing yhelf her feet to the fire and she apologized... I think that she can retract the apology now 'cause we're back into another right wing assasination binge... 2 in 11 days, and counting...

But , ya'll keep them nutballs charged up with hate speech and guns... It's what the right wing does best... Killing and lieing!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:44 PM

As long as you also outlaw bows, arrows, and swords. Items designed with only one purpose in mind, there is no justification.

And then we have knives... Can't have them, someone might stab someone else.

As for laws, we have had many ( Prohibition) that tried to remove a "danger to society"- and most have caused far more harm by unintended consequences than the original danger ever did.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:50 PM

"You and th NRA just want reasonable people to shut the fu*k up.."

No, you are the one trying to get others to shut up.



As for the wording of the 2nd amendment, it is far less ambiguous than the application of "Freedom of speech" to the internet. Yet I fear most would not allow any discussion of restricting internet usage.


Let the Supreme Court decide the meaning of the 2nd amendment- and the others, as well. If you don't like it, PASS AN AMENDMENT changing it, don't try to weasel around. But be careful- What you do may have unintended consequences, encouraging others to change the Bill of Rights to match what THEY feel are significant threats- like Blues and Rap.

If you don't like my capitals , then try listening to what I write and not attacking the person when you do not like the arguement.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:04 PM

Let's stick to the constitution and what the framers had in mind. Everyone can have personal arms in their home as long as they are a type and mechanism type available in 1791.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM

This particular white supreamist shooter probably did not need Rush LImbaugh for encouragment and an emboldened self esteem to commit political/terrorist murder, however there is a clear increase in assaults on police officers as well as the recent high profile murders such as Dr. Tiller and other church shootings.

If you too were to monitor the hatriotic goadings by the right wing raido personalities for just one week you would be surprised how many times you will hear the call for violence and action against those who are now destroying :
capitalism
babies
the rights of white people
the constitution
the economy

Calling on the 10% of unemployed Americans who only feel powerful when armed and have nothing left to lose to go out and fight against the Obama tyranny has resulted in murder.

Imus was broomed away for saying nappy headed ho.
It took only a pompous activist to organize his removal.

What and who will do the same for the most vile "entertainers" who call for their xenophobic revenge against Jews Blacks Mexicans Gays and 'Democrat Socialists' in order to take back America?

Do not forget that several of these terrorists have quoted Rush LImbaugh as a defense and rationale for the murders they have commited both verbally and in letters left behind.

Before you dissmisively say in Limbaugh's "its just free speech", realize that inciting people to kill is not always political speech. Sometimes it is aiding and abetting murder.




I could go into detail about the ways in which certain inflamatory remarks are qualified and certain lies have a straw man lie preceding it, but suffice it to say that Rush has already killed people he has never met and I suspect he enjoys it.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:17 PM

This is really an outrageous incident, and especially tragic for the family and friends of security guard that was killed. And it's even more outrageous that the act took place at a holocaust museum.

Bill Cohen, former US Republican Senator from Maine and Secretary of State under President Clinton, whom I know was 30 feet away and expressed his shock and concern on CNN, and described how he and the museum director got the hell up the stairs as fast as they could. They also did all they could to prevent other museum visitors from trying to evacuate the museum via those same stairs, which might have exposed them to a firefight.

I find it strange that some folks here find something to debate. It's almost as if the actions above were happening on a video screen rather than in some real place.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:23 PM

A Black Man Dying in Defense of the Holocaust Museum
10 Jun 2009 05:32 pm
Ta-Nehisi writes:

"Perhaps this means nothing but I feel that I should acknowledge that a black man was killed on guard duty at the Holocaust museum. That may mean nothing. But I think it should be said.

No, it means something. More than something, in fact. The great tragedy of the rift between blacks and Jews is that while we waste time arguing with each other, our common enemy -- racialist fascism -- goes unfought. Add Stephen Tyrone Johns to the group that includes Schwerner, Chaney, and Goodman. All were victims of the same sick ideology."

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/06/a_black_man_dying_in_defense_o.php

My condolences to the family & friends of Stephen Tyrone Johns.

**

It may be a coincidence, but this evening was to be the debut of Anne and Emmett, a play written by Janet Langhart Cohen, the wife of Former Defense Secretary William S. Cohen. A comment written by Secretary Cohen indicates that he was   "30 feet away from where the shots were fired. Mrs. Cohen was in transit to the final rehearsal of her play, Anne and Emmett, at the time of the shooting, but was unable to enter the building upon her arrival...

"Anne & Emmett" is centered around an imaginary conversation between 14-year-old Anne Frank and 15-year-old Emmett Till. One was murdered because she was Jewish, the other because he was Black. These two teenagers were fatal victims of anti-Semitism and racism. The play explores the commonalities and parallels between their lives. This play will give all who view it an inside look at why it is so vital that the world learn more about genocide and how we can act to prevent it before it is too late".

http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2009/06/tragedy-at-us-holocaust-museum-open-thread/#disqus_thread





S

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:27 PM

That "S" is a typo. Or maybe it stands for Sorry.

There are so many things all of us could (should) be sorry for.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:09 PM

Of course, the guy might have been a complete loon, and incapable of thinking, but assuming he had some kind of an agenda--at least something that made sense to him--what could it have been? Given what's been disclosed about him, it's kind of hard to believe that he went there to kill a security guard.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:58 PM

Why assume that the framers of the US constitution were infallible and all-seeing, with the power to foresee the future? Particularly if you have doubts about whether Gods had the same capabilities. Regrettably this thread very well illustrates the failures of the absolutist freedom of speech approach in dealing with dangerous extremists.

THere have always been things that a populace have been forbidden to own, say, and do. The question is where and how to draw the line, and where and how to stabilise it so that it cannot be manipulated for anti-social ends.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:44 PM

Okay, Richard. Assume the framers of the US constitution were wrong. What would you change, and how would that affect what has taken place today?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:08 AM

"As long as you also outlaw bows, arrows, and swords. Items designed with only one purpose in mind, there is no justification."

I'm quite sure law enforcement...and myself... would be happy to have only bows & swords & knives to contend with.
Firearms **are** a special category... they allow killing easily and quickly...and in the case of handguns, with surprise. Cowards who would not dare face their 'enemy' with a knife or sword will choose a gun.
You are changing the debate to avoid the direct issue of firearms (along with occasional explosives) being the weapon of choice for hate crime. It is not a matter of 2nd amendments, or equivocation upon the concept of 'dangerous weapon' or diversion into 'slippery slope' arguments about losing other 'rights'. It is a matter of reducing the number of 'easy' crimes of violence made possible by lax gun laws and the difficulty of enforcing them.

Grieving families will not appreciate your arguments.....

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:58 AM

Nor will the hundreds of thousands of police officers, social workers, churches, and other individuals and organizations that deal daily with the aftermath of unfettered access to high powered weaponry by anyone who happens to want it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:38 AM

I'd eliminate the right to bear arms straight away.

I'd re-cast the freedom of speech stuff - the absence of prior restraint in libel is a gross anomaly, on a worldwide scale.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:36 AM

[Maybe a mod could post links to the several hundred times we have debated "Keep And Bare Arms" here, and we could return to the topic.]

I did not realize, until Friend Azizi posted, that the murdered guard was Black - I don't watch TV news where his picture would have been displayed. I agree that this makes the entire situation even more tragic.

Someone earlier said, if I understood correctly, that he saw this as another case of the right-wing against progressives. I disagree. While the murderer may well have been on what we call the right-wing of the political spectrum, there are many many more people with similar political and economic beliefs who would never dream of committing such a crime. It just seems to me that this is a case of a bigoted old man (88?) who may have seen his end in sight and wanted to strike a blow for his particular cause, nauseating as that cause is, before it was too late. I suppose he would have been much happier if he could have killed a Jew instead.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:00 AM

He wasn't out to get a "progressive"; he was out to get someone, anyone, who wasn't an "aryan" white. He headed for a site that is a prime symbol of one of the locuses of his hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:23 AM

"I did not realize... that the murdered guard was Black - I agree that this makes the entire situation even more tragic."



                                  Why?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:44 AM

I would perhaps not have chosen the phrase "more tragic", Rig but I agree that at the least it is infuriating that this hatefilled old man got to kill a member of a race he despised. Better, imo, if a Black person had killed HIM.

But I guess it is just my anger speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:45 AM

With two kids in school, in the DC area, we are very aware of the fact that from April to June, the museums and galleries on the Washington Mall are full of groups of school kids--you have to consider the possibility that children were his intended target--

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:46 PM

Since the shooting happened about 15 miles from me, as the crow flies, I saw lots of reports on it, including pictures of the victim as soon as they had one.

It is simply a fact that many guards at local museums ARE black...which made the shooter's 'hate' easier to manage. I have no idea what he'd have done if he encountered 2 white guards. They say he took 2 steps inside, lowered his rifle, and began shooting. Maybe he had scouted the museum earlier...*shrug*. He certainly knew he wouldn't get far with a rifle, and had to do whatever he did quickly. They say he lad lists of other buildings in his car...perhaps he just chose this museum as a symbolic place....if he survives, we may find out.
The real issue is: with this man's history, and the vitriolic posts on web sites, WHY was he not watched and 'constrained' better? I know...too many to follow. still.............

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:16 PM

Yesterday there were approximately 50 murders in the United States.

Will somebody please explain why we heard nothing about the other 49?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:31 PM

Bit disenguous, pdq? ALL of those murders were reported upon- in their own communities. Are you objecting to this one because you don't agree that it is more significant on a cultural basis?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:05 PM

This was a terrorist act, carried out at a national monument--a high value target for Al Qaeda and the like, and protecting them was supposed to be top priority for Homeland Security--

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: GUEST,MarkS (on the road)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:25 PM

"The entire last part of the 20th century was marked with right winged people assasinating progressives..."

Er,

Lee Harvey Oswald was an avowed communist
Sirhan Bishara Sirhan a Palestinian

Hardly right wing.

This fellow in Washington is an avowed socialist who wrote the christianity was a jewish plot promulgated by Paul of Tausus (aka Saint Paul) to overthrow Rome!

This is real hard to put into the American context of Right/Left identification.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: shooting in DC?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:52 PM

No, Mark... But look who got assasinated??? All progressive/liberals... And also, fir the one millionth time, what exactly was Oswald's beef with JFK and Sirhan's with RFK??? I mean, let's get real here... Other than minor political differences niether Sirhan or Oswald had all that much motive... Hmmmmmm??? I don't see the kind of rabid hatred as a motivating force in either Oswald or Sirhan... Or James Earl Ray, for that matter... These folks weren't memebers of fringe rightie groups, I'll admit, but something triggered them... I think that something is the CIA... I think that all of these assasins were CIA created...

There is a theory that the CIA has folks who are so brainwashed and stoked that they will do what they are ordered... That kinda expalins the lack of motivation on the assasins parts in the 60's assasinations... I mean, let's get real here... You don't appreciate but can see the motivation is yesterday's killing... It came from this man's heart (or lack thereof...)... I mean, this guy had a track record... Ray, Oswald and Sirhan didn't... All of them just came out of nowhere, so to speak...

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not 100% on the CIA... The FBI mighta had it's hand in it, too... But between them, they had JFK, RFK and MLK assasinated... And they represented the right wing in the 60s...

B~