BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM

+BBruce Not much speculating with 'what ifs' when it comes to history, but would millions of lives have been saved if Britain had surrendered to Hitler?

Hitler would have carried out a much larger program of genocide - he also intended to wipe out Poles and Russians as far as he could, so we'd have to balance the loss of those populations against the 60 million or so who died during the course of the war.

But the Third Reich would probably have run out of steam after a while, just how long is anyone's guess. It was a personality-led creation (based on the cult of Hitler) and it is doubtful if it would have maintained its impetus much past his demise. Even the Soviet Union which was far less based on a single personality hardly survived a century despite the huge upheaval that accompanied its arrival on the world stage. Plus the circumstances that gave rise to the Third Reich would in time have been forgotten and German's less 'patriotic' about its origins.

But in any case I'm glad Hitler was defeated when he was, we Irish were on his list of 'inferior' people too, people who couldn't be assimilated easily.

But would he world have seen any less slaughter? Over 100 million people have died in about 100 or more 'small and medium wars' (eg, not big world wars) since 1945. I don't see that armies behave any less brutally when they think they can get away with it, whatever flag flies on their sleeve. War brutalizes those who participate in it unless they are lucky enough to be so revolted by it that they turn the opposite way, as happens at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

To Teribus
The reason why the Stop The War Coalition is calling for Israeli leaders to be investigated for war crimes is because the IDF has been waging war on the civilian population of Gaza.Perhaps you haven't noticed but one of the most poweful armies in the world,armed with the latest weaponry and military hardaware has been bombing,shelling and shooting innocent women and children in very large numbers.And the use of phospherous bombs in overcrowded urban areas against a civilian population is illegal.

The statistics show this to be true.Over 1300 dead ,the vast majority civilian with hundreds of children killed by bullets ,blast and shrapnel.Some 5000 terribly maimed and around a million terrorised.
In contrast the Israeli casualties have been reported as 13 dead of whom 10 are military.

The mainstream news teams are now inside Gaza in growing numbers and they are reporting terrible scenes and crimes of the shooting dead of women and children huddling in houses, more bodies being pulled out of the flattened buildings and phospherous wounds which cannot easily be treated. The Observer reported the massacre of civilians in a Gaza village of Khurrza which left over a dozen dead .This massacre is only one of many killings committed by a supposedly proffesional army.

Come on now Teribus !
What are we to do with the slaughters? Give them medals? No,let's give them a trial which is more than they give their victims...the babies,toddlers and kids killed in their
houses,playgrounds,schools and shelters.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

BTW, for another real world-class case of army brutality you could do worse than check out how the Russian army has been acting in Chechnya. Civilians have literally had their heads blown off by soldiers who strapped dynamite to them, and the rest isn't fit to print here. So, no, I'm not accusing ONLY the Israeli army of brutality. As I said, things haven't changed much in the last 60 years all over the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

""yet when Israel shells Hamas morters placed BY HAMAS amoung civilians there are cries of protest?""

And who gave you the information that Hamas had a mortar among those civilians?

The Israelis? Oh well that's OK, because THEY woudn't LIE, would they?

And of course they have excluded all the journalists who just MIGHT have given a truthful account.

BBruce, you seem to think that he who posts the most, and longest, cut 'n pastes will have truth on his side.

No mate, it don't work like that. People just get bored and stop reading your crap.

Proof needs to be produced, and I don't mean Israeli military propaganda, or Fox News.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

Nickhere,

So where are the cries that Russia has no right to exist? I hear that about Israel, and you seem to state that Russia has done worse.

So what about it? This seems to me like Russia gets a pass by those here that say Israel has given up the right to exiost by it's actions.


How else should I interpret this????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:39 PM

Is "Stop The War coalition" going to insist on the leadership of Hamas being tried for "war crimes" HUGO - The deliberate targeting of civilian centres of population is "illegal" and Hamas have been engaged in this activity from inside Gaza since 2002.

Or doesn't that count?

Is "Stop The War coalition" going to insist on the leadership of Hamas being tried for "war crimes" HUGO - The deliberate placing of combat troops and offensive military equipment and the conduct of military operations from within civilian centres of population is "illegal" and Hamas have been engaged in this activity from inside Gaza since 2002.

Or doesn't that count?

Is "Stop The War coalition" going to insist on the leadership of Hamas being tried for "war crimes" HUGO - Threatening prisoners lives in demand for concessions "illegal" and Hamas have been engaged in this activity with respect to the kidnap of IDF Corporal Gilad Shalit.

Or doesn't that count?

If Hamas as the elected government of the population of Gaza, determine to attack a neighbouring state, a state internationally recognised under the terms of the United Nations Charter, then they, the government of Gaza and the population of Gaza that elected them, must fully expect that that country is perfectly entitled to defend itself.

1. Stop attacking Israel and recognise its right to exist
2. Stop killing Israeli citizens and threatening to kill Israeli citizens

And there will be NO MORE KILLING. Now once the Palestinian Arabs get that into their fat heads the better for all concerned - especially them, because they seem to pick up the tab for Hamas every bloody time. The only thing proved so far is that the Palestinians must be on one hell of a slow learning curve - I note that over the past 34-35 days Hezbollah up there in southern Lebanon got the message in August 2006.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:55 PM

Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike.

No matter how one feels about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that statement is anti-Semitic hate-mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:33 PM

BBruce, now you're off on another tangent. Have I said Israel has no right to exist? And what does a right to exist mean? Human beings have a right to life, that I take for granted, even further than many people, as I count all the way back to conception. Do nations have a right to exist? That's an interesting philosophical question as it tries morally to equate nationhood with personhood which is altogether different. The former is a political construct of recent times, the latter a unique sentient human being which I won't even attempt to define here beyond that point or I'll get into another long ramble.

We generally accept the inviolability of sovereignty (well apart from Iraq let's say, irony intended) and that nations have a kind of civil right to pursue their course un-interfered with by outside influence or attack. In practice it rarely happens though I personally accept democratic nationhood to be a fair and just model of how things should be.

But a separate question is whether states that turn 'rogue' should be allowed to carry on their course without outside interference and whether states that are fundamentally flawed at heart should automatically have some kind of right to be whatever kind of state they wish, no matter how depraved.

By way of example we could think of Apartheid South Africa or Mugabe's Zimbabwe. The general principle has been to respect these nations' sovereignty and to apply pressure diplomatically and / or through economic sanctions. Under international laws and conventions as they stand regime-changing invasions have generally been frowned upon until the Bush camp decided literally to take the law into their own hands or disregard it altogether. The problem with this approach is obviously where do you stop? Zimbabwe would be a ripe candidate and a case could even be argued for invading Israel. But who would get to decide these things and how would we ensure it would be free of the stench of politicking and only enacted from noble humanitarianism?

No one has tried to argue that South Africa or Zimbabwe as states 'should not exist' but that's not the same as saying they should be allowed to continue as apartheid regimes or dictatorships without hindrance or comment.

I don't think anyone (and Lord help me if I'm wrong, rolling my eyes) here has suggested Israel should be 'destroyed' or the people who live there slaughtered, which seems to be what you're suggesting with your 'right to exist' phrase.

I hope this goes some way to answering your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:28 PM

"Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike."

C. Ham
"No matter how one feels about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that statement is anti-Semitic hate-mongering."

You may feel that way C. Ham, I couldn't give a dam.
It's a comparsion of two acting in such a way that one can't tell one from the other. It's worst though when one has been the victim & turns out to later be the one that inflicts the same destruction on an other that was inflicted on them. I would therefore say that the people of Israel have the history to know better & it's they who should "never forget" lest they become what it was whom they saw as a monster. They are now the modern monster. Of course they are not the only monster pushing their aggenda today.

To think that anyone could give a reason or excuse to what Israel has done to the people of Palestinian is the same as giving excuse to what we (the USA) did to the Iraqi people. There is no excuse, there were other bloodless wsya of pushing one's aggenda. Of course when that aggenda is expansion & land grabbing & the oppression of a people any old excuse will do, aye????

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

To Teribus
Israel is a brutal colonial occupying power which has spent the past sixty years oppressing and killing Palestinians.

Of course the Palestinians have the right to resist that military oppression and the occupying power.

In Paris in 1938 a Jewish student walked into the German embassy in Paris and shot dead a diplomat in protest at the imprisonment and murder of Jewish Germans at the hands of Hitler.His tactic may have been wrong but i would never condemn his actions !

In the war, the resistance in France and across Europe organised at enormous risk to oppose the nazi invaders.
In Vietnam, Ageria, and many other countries whole populations have resisted their colonial masters often with armed force.

In Palestinine much of this resistance has seen young children take on Israeli tanks,unarmed international observers face down enormous armoured bulldozers demolishing Palestinian houses, and Palestinian villagers and pro peace Israeli supporters getting shot by the IDF whilst protesting against that giant Apartheid Wall on Palestinian land.

Even during the current slaughter in Gaza hundreds of Palestinian Israelis and Jewish anti war Israelis were imprisoned for peacefully opposing the war in Israel.

The resistance in Gaza has every right to oppose the invaders with their killing machines.As a previous writer has said most of the killing was done by young soldiers and airmen who were far removed from their young victims...as if they were actors in some appalling video game.

Reporters in Gaza have found examples of the most appalling racist and jingoistic graffitti on walls left by the departing Israeli soldiers along with their excrement.

Of course the Palestinians have the right to resist!The Israelis have the guns,the bombs,the missiles,the chemical weapons and the tanks but they are finding it harder to win the wars and impossible to win the peace!
Free Palestine!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM

Yes all well and good Guest ifor apart from the following:

If the Arabs in Gaza have the right to defend themselves when attacked then so do the Jews in Israel.

Since August 2005 no part of Gaza has been occupied.

What on earth makes you think that Hamas in Gaza is fighting for a Free Palestine??

The Jews have withstood attacks and threats of annihilation for 89 years now and have withstood them all. Between 1920 and 1936 they mistakenly put their trust in the British to protect them. Between 1936 and 1945 they learned to protect themselves, learned to rely on their own defence, and assisted the British in crushing the pro-Nazi Arab Revolt. Between 1945 and 1947 they retaliated in kind when attacked by Arabs and the British alike.

When in 1947 the UN proposed a two state solution, the Jews agreed and the Arabs rejected the offer. In the war of independence that followed the Arabs were defeated. The UN brokered a cease-fire, the terms of which the Israelis complied with and the Arabs did not. Out of the former mandated Palestine the Egyptians captured and retained Gaza and the Jordanians took the West Bank.

In 1956 they fought again and the Arabs lost again. Another UN brokered cease-fire the terms of which the Israelis complied with while the Arabs did not.

In 1967 the entire Arab world openly threatened Israel with annihilation and positioned five armies on Israel's borders having thrown the UN peace-keepers out of Sinai. Israel mounted a pre-emptive strike that knocked out the Arab Air Forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Over the next six days those armies were routed and for the first time Israel invaded neighbouring territories and occupied them. When the UN brokered the cease-fire this time Israel was adamant, the only way land will be returned is through bilateral agreements whereby Israel obtains recognition and peace treaties are signed.

In 1973 the Arabs struck again, in the Sinai from Egypt and on the Golan Heights from Syria, on the Jewish Festival of Yom Kippur. The Jordanians and the Lebanese sensibly stayed out of it. After some initial reverses the IDF regained the initiative and repelled the assault. Had they wished they could have destroyed Damascus and completely annihilated the Egyptian Armies trapped in Sinai and in Egypt around Port Said. Yet another UN brokered cease-fire. This time two bilateral deals based on return of land-for-peace were reached with Egypt and with Jordan. Those deals have held good to this day. A similar deal with Syria has always been tantalisingly close, but never quite there. Talks are still going on with Turkey as the mediator.

Now the Egyptians held part of the old Palestine called Gaza, and the Jordanians held the part of the old Palestine mandate called the West Bank and instead of just giving those to the "Palestinians", the Palestinian's Arab friends shut them up in camps and kept them in poverty. Assad's Syria, Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Khomeni's Iran became the backers of the Palestinian cause and kept the pot boiling with attacks on the civilian population of Israel. However the Israelis fought back.

If the Arabs stop fighting there will be peace tomorrow

If the Israelis stop fighting they will be annihilated tomorrow

You cannot negotiate with any group that has sworn to destroy you.

Another obvious truth is this - The Palestinian Arabs need Israel and the Jews to survive, they will get absolutely nothing from any of their Arab neighbours, because those neighbours have got nothing that could sustain and make economically viable a Palestinian State - Israel on the other hand has got something to offer, but it is not going to obtained at the point of a gun or by threats of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM

Well, well, well...

Word on the street is that President Obama is going to appoint former Maine Senator, George Mitchell, as his special envoy to the Middle East...

Ya'll remember him??? You knowm the "Mitchell Plan" which was very close to the "Saudi Proposal" that the Bush folks refused to consider as a workable framework for peace in the region??? Yep, same guy...

My, my, my...

Maybe now that the Bushites have completely screwed things up with their arrogance that Obama agrees with me that these proposals that very well would have changed this mess are still workable...

Nice to get some vindication...

Go George Mitchell!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM

I don't know, Mitchell has some success in Ireland, didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

"The issue is the right of exiles to return home, and that is something that shouldn't be qualified by whether they are Jews or Christians or Moslems or none of the above." - MGOH

You'll have trouble selling that to the Arabs Kevin.

The pity is that so far as I am aware no effort being made by Israel or anyone else to support the right of exiled Jews from historic Jewish communities elsewhere in the Middle East to have the right to return home.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:53 PM

""Since August 2005 no part of Gaza has been occupied.

What on earth makes you think that Hamas in Gaza is fighting for a Free Palestine??""


Correct! Since 2005 Gaza has been blockaded and starved of basic human needs.

It would possibly have been better for the people of Gaza, to have been occupied?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:55 AM

"Since 2005 Gaza has been blockaded and starved of basic human needs."

It most certainly has not, the only times that border crossings have been closed by Israel has been in response to attacks on Israel launched from inside the Gaza strip, i.e. territory under the control of the Palestinians.

No attacks = Open crossings = Peace and prosperity for all in the region.

Israel is not going to go away and ultimately the people who live in that region are going to have to learn to co-exist. Over the last 60 years Israel has shown and proved that that is its intent (Egypt; Jordan; Syria - all former enemies). Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah on the other hand have no interest in peace as long as Israel exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:59 AM

"Israel is not going to go away and ultimately the people who live in that region are going to have to learn to co-exist. Over the last 60 years Israel has shown and proved that that is its intent (Egypt; Jordan; Syria - all former enemies)".

So says Teribus.
Well Israel has just stated (see NPR News) that when they're finished dealing with Hamas they will turn their attention towards Jordan. I thought that they were just done with raining hell on Jordan or was it Lebenon or was it Syria or Egypt or Saudi, (it's lists gets so long it's hard to keep track), when they turned their attention towards the Palestinians?
I get it, when they done pissing on one people they turn as the wind blows & piss on the next in line. I think pretty soon they'll have pissed on so many the the pissed off nations surrounding Israel will all turn their attention to focus on Israel, all they'll need to know is that Obama won't back Israel if they lead in a war of aggression & that might be the end of Israel. You could say that they rained hell on everyone around them & there was none left so they had to piss on themselves, they've been pissing into the wind for a while now & soon the winds of change will turn & all they'll be doing is pissing into the wind. Like a dog that shits where it eats, their stink will haunt them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:28 AM

I dunno, Barry. I realize that is is now proper liberal ideology to be anti-Israeli and to extend that attitude to all Jews. The conditions of the Palestinians are certainly deplorable, and I met a number of Israelis who had anti-Palestinian attitudes that I felt were deplorable.

However, there have been atrocities on both sides, and innocent people killed on both sides. They've been fighting a dirty war for generations, and both sides have blood on their hands.

I think, however, that it's a very low blow to compare the Israeli tactics to the Holocaust of World War II. It's a dirty war, but it's certainly not "ethnic cleansing" or systematic extermination. If you visited Israel, I think you'd find that there are two sides to the issue - and BOTH sides are wrong.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:51 AM

It is when people like Barry Finn paint all Jews as responsible for what Israel does, or when they hold "Israelis as Jews" to a different standard than any other country, that they expose themselves as anti-Semites.

That Barry Finn's hateful statement, "Hitler would be amused at how the Jews he couldn't kill have turned in todays world, he would be very proud of them & how they are so much alike," was posted to Mudcat on the same same day we witnessed the history of Barack Obama's inspirational inauguration sickens me.

As a Jew, as someone who lost relatives in the Holocaust, I take this kind of attack very personally. It goes way beyond the pale of any kind of civilized discourse on the issue of whether Israel was right or wrong in the way it fought the war with Hamas.

I stand with the Barack Obama, not with the Barry Finns of this world.

Here is a transcript of what Barack Obama had to say about the situation Israel faced with Gaza/Hamas when he visited there in July. Less than two weeks ago, in an interview with George Stephanopolous on ABC, the incoming president stood by the statements.

I don't think any country would find it acceptable to have missiles raining down on the heads of their citizens.

The first job of any nation state is to protect its citizens. And so I can assure you that if -- I don't even care if I was a politician. If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.

In terms of negotiations with Hamas, it is very hard to negotiate with a group that is not representative of a nation state, does not recognize your right to exist, has consistently used terror as a weapon, and is deeply influenced by other countries. I think that Hamas leadership will have to make a decision at some point as to whether it is a serious political party seeking to represent the aspirations of the Palestinian people. And, as a consequence, willing to recognize Israel's right to exist and renounce violence as a tool to achieve its aims. Or whether it wants to continue to operate as a terrorist organization. Until that point, it's hard for Israel, I think, to negotiate with a country that -- or with a group that doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist at a country -- OK.

Thank you very much, everybody. I appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM

To Joe
You are wrong to claim that
"it is now proper ideology to be anti Israel and to extend that attitude to all Jews".

There are many Jewish people across the world [including in Israel ] who are opposed to the attacks on the Palestinian people.They have been warmly welcomed by those who are opposed to the oppression of Palestinians in Gaza,the West Bank and in East Jerusalem.

These Jewish anti Zionists include religious and secular Jews.

I am thinking of those young Israelis who have refused to serve in Gaza and the organisation "Jews For Justice For Palestine". Or again someone like the late Tony Cliff [ founder of the Socialist Workers Party in the UK ] who was born into a Zionist family in Palestine, but as a teenager became a staunch defender of Palestinian rights.

The root cause of the conflict has been the wholesale theft of Palestinan land and the exiling of hundreds of thousands of Palestinans and their descendents who have been barred from returning to their homeland.

As one Palestinian MK said in the Israeli Knesset [parliament ] last week ,and I paraphrase, it is galling to be told by the son of an [Israeli ] immigrant to get out of the country when my forefathers have lived on this land for many generations.

Joe, you are wrong to say that there has been no ethnic cleansing. The Palestinans call the events of 1948 "The Nakba" or the catastrophe and it came about because of the massacres or threats of massacres at places like Deir Yassin and Tantura.

Yitzhak Rabin,later prime minister of Israel, was in charge of military operations in the towns of Ramla and Lydd in July 1948 .He estimated that his troops drove around 50000 Palestinians from the area, forcing them to march to the West Bank without food or water.
The United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling on Israel to allow the refugees to return 60 years later they and their descendents are still waiting.

Of course there are two sides to the conflict.

But if anyone were to visit Israel they would find it very difficult to go to the West Bank or Gaza because of Israeli
lockdowns ,roadblocks etc.

The Israelis are NOT nazis or fascists and it would be a profound mistake to claim they are. It is a mistake the right wing Zionists would be quick to exploit!

However, Israel bears a remarkable resemblance to a colonial settler
society characterised by periodic genocidal outbursts aginst the Palestinians.

The nazis sought to exterminate their enemies on an industrial scale ;the Israelis seek their "transfer" [what a polite word ] from Israeli territory.

However, the Israeli leaders have commited war horrific crimes in Gaza just as their predecessors did in Beirut in 1982 and again in Lebanon two years ago. They to answer for their crimes in an international court of law.How else are their victims to receive justice?

Until the problem of the Palestinian diaspora is addressed I cannot see an end to the conflict or the carnage.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:43 AM

Barry

Point 1: "Israel has just stated (see NPR News) that when they're finished dealing with Hamas they will turn their attention towards Jordan."

Well just looked at NPR News/BBC News/CNN and guess what Baz – absolutely nothing about Israel turning its attention anywhere.

Point 2: - "I thought that they were just done with raining hell on Jordan or was it Lebanon or was it Syria or Egypt or Saudi, (it's lists gets so long it's hard to keep track), when they turned their attention towards the Palestinians?"

Hard to keep track is it Barry? That may well be the case if you have the attention span of a Goldfish. Now let's see what the reality of the situation is:

•        Israel has not rained hell on Jordan since 1967 – 42 years ago Barry.

•        On 12th July, 2006, Hezbollah militants purposely fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence. Of the seven Israeli soldiers in the two jeeps, two were wounded, three were killed, and two were kidnapped and taken to Lebanon. Five more were killed in a failed Israeli rescue attempt. There then followed a 33 day campaign by Israel to rescue the two men and to push Hezbollah northwards away from the Israeli border so that Israeli towns and villages would be beyond the range of Hezbollah's Iranian supplied missiles. This was the last time Israel rained hell on Lebanon. Previously it had defeated Lebanese forces in 1949, and raided Lebanon in 1978 and 1982. After the 1982 incursion Israeli forces held South Lebanon to prevent Palestinian attacks on Israel but unilaterally withdrew in 2000.

•        Israel has not rained hell on Syria since 1973 – 36 years ago Barry.

•        Israel has never rained hell on the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Barry.

•        Israel has not rained hell on Egypt since 1973 – 36 years ago Barry.

Now then Barry, are you prepared to look into what Israel has had to contend with since it won and declared its independence in 1948. I somehow doubt that you will, but if you did you would detail an almost continuous catalogue of direct threat and confrontation from its neighbours, who immediately after each defeat continue their aggression by supporting terrorist groups in their attacks on the Israeli civilian population.

One other thing that may come as a bit of a shock to you Barry, going all the way back the Israeli War of Independence, in their battles with the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians and Lebanese they have never attacked or targeted civilian centres of population. They have only ever been subject to attack by the IDF in retaliation to attacks mounted from such centres of civilian population by Palestinian Terrorist Groups – Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Fatah Al-Aqsa Brigades, etc. Had those groups not based their attacks from those locations they would never have been attacked.

Point 3: "I get it, when they done pissing on one people they turn as the wind blows & piss on the next in line."

Read that list up above Barry?
•        Israel lives at peace with Jordan
•        Israel lives at peace with Egypt
•        Israel lives at peace with Syria and is currently engaged in covert talks to resolve their few remaining differences using Turkey as a mediator.
•        Israel lives at peace with Lebanon provided no attacks are launched on Israel from Lebanon.

Now those are ALL of what used to be called the Arab "Frontline States" and apart from Hezbollah in Lebanon, Israel has lived at peace with all of them continuously since at least 1973 (36 years Barry) So where does this continuously "pissing on people in turn" come from – Must be from your own fevered imagination, certainly not from fact.

Point 4: "I think pretty soon they'll have pissed on so many the pissed off nations surrounding Israel will all turn their attention to focus on Israel"

You mean like they did in 1967 Barry? When it was not just the Arab "Frontline States" but the entire Arab world that united to crush Israel and drive its inhabitants into the sea. You should read the rhetoric coming out of the Arab capitols at the time – but I know you won't, or if you do you will glibly dismiss it as "Jest kiddin". That accumulation of force required the unifying influence of the Pan-Arabist Movement, which no longer exists Barry. The only possible uniting force in the Arab world today is Islamic Fundamentalism and fortunately for the world at large and the region in particular the Arab states involved fully realise where the dangers in that movement ultimately lead – their own destruction.

Point 5: "…..all they'll need to know is that Obama won't back Israel if they lead in a war of aggression & that might be the end of Israel."

For that to happen Barry, Barak Obama would have to repeal the bilateral mutual defence treaty that the United States of America has had with Israel from the day that Israel declared itself to be a free independent and democratic nation. If Israel is attacked and appears to be about to go under, the United States of America will defend her – Just start thinking out the consequences for the USA and for Israel if America did not – they are far reaching and absolutely frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:11 AM

I can't see how that comment by Barry about how Hitler would be pleased at what's been happening is anti-semitic. If someone hate Jews, they surely want other people to hate them, and that means they welcome it when they behave in a way that tends to make other people hate them.
........................

It's a dirty war, but it's certainly not "ethnic cleansing" or systematic extermination.   Not "systematic extermination" certainly - but the state of Israel as it exists today is founded on ethnic cleansing. That is why the demand for a right of return for exiled Palestinians is seen as incompatible with the right of Israel to exist.

The population of Gaza is overwhelmingly made up of people living in exile from Israel because of their ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:45 AM

Regarding Obama's speech - "I'd do everything in my power to stop the attacks"

EVERYTHING?

They could try being NICE to them for a change, and trying to help them out. That's within their power, and it's worked in other situations elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:51 AM

McGrath,

The comment says that all Jews, not even all Israelis, all Jews, are now people Hitler would be proud of.

One would have to be very blind not to see that as viciously anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:15 PM

Obviously the "palestinian people", and not Hamas rocket-launchers were intended in my last post. Should be obvious but thought I'd spell it out anyway just in case!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM

In order for the person in this thread who is being called anti-Semitic to hate Jews, that person would have to hate half of their own family.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM

"The comment says that all Jews, not even all Israelis, all Jews, are now people Hitler would be proud of."

But it didn't actually say that. The word "all" doesn't appear, and I can'r see any reason to assume that it is imnplied.

It is very evident indeed that there are many Jews, both in Israel and elsewhere who are opposed to and horrified by the slaughter in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

In order for the person in this thread who is being called anti-Semitic to hate Jews, that person would have to hate half of their own family.

There are lots of families where that's the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

"It is very evident indeed that there are many Jews, both in Israel and elsewhere who are opposed to and horrified by the slaughter in Gaza."

And here is one such, Israeli novelist David Grossman, writing in Haaretz, and quoted in today's Independent (London):

"When the guns become completely silent, and the full scope of the killing and destruction becomes known, to the point where even the most self-righteous and sophisticated of the Israeli psyche's defence mechanisms are overcome, perhaps then some kind of lesson will imprint itself on our brain. Perhaps then we will finally understand how deeply and fundamentally wrong our actions in this region have been from time immemorial, how misguided, unethical, unwise and above all, responsible, time after time, for fanning the flames that consume us...

For the rest of what he wrote, and an accompanying article, use the blue clicky. (I don't think we should paste anything here that is longer than a paragraph or so, except on occasions where a link is liable to stop working, or when a publication isn't readily accessible online.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

And here is a fuller version of what David Grossman wrote, as printed in Haaretz itself. (And it's admirable that it could be printed there.)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

The ban on two Arab parties from running in the Israeli election that was discussed earlier in this thread has been overturned by Israel's Supreme Court.

Here is the JTA story received today

***

Supreme Court: Arab parties can run
January 21, 2009

JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Israel's Supreme Court ruled that two Arab parties should not be disqualified from national elections.

On Wednesday, the court overturned the decision of Israel's Central Elections Committee to ban the Balad and United Arab List-Ta'al parties from the Feb. 10 elections.

The nine justices on the court's panel decided unanimously in the case of the United Arab List-Ta'al party and by a majority for Balad, according to Ynet.

The elections panel had disqualified the parties based on petitions claiming that the parties do not recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland and call for armed conflict against Israel. A 500-page appeal was filed Monday.

Subject: Desecrating the Holocaust is racism - don't do it!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:36 PM

Whatever the case, I think it's better to avoid comparing anything to the wholesale extermination of Jews by Hitler during the Holocaust. Comparing Jews to Hitler is a particularly insulting and racist thing to do, and yet it has become acceptable conduct among a good number of my fellow liberals who should know better.

I think that liberal Americans are disillusioned by Israel and its conduct toward Palestinians - and rightly so. And many liberals repeatedly make the same mistake Barry made, of blaming Jews in general for the conduct of the Israeli government. Israel was founded on the highest of ideals, and I think many of us grew up in a time when we looked on Israel as a shining star of hope after the horrors of the Holocaust. But since the 1950's, Israel as a nation has used incredibly sophisticated and cruel military tactics and weaponry against people who were far inferior in strength and supplies. I haven't seen systematic extermination that somebody above claims, but it's certainly clear that Israel has persecuted Palestinians and kept them in suffering and poverty throughout the entire history of the nation of Israel. A favored Israeli tactic is to drive unarmed and innocent Palestinians from their homes, and then to destroy those homes with bulldozers - this has been done thousands of times, and it is deplorable. There have been countless incidents of killings of unarmed Palestinians by Israeli soldiers, and Israel has not brought these killings to an end. But still, I don't see evidence of systematic extermination on a scale anywhere comparable to the Holocaust.

For Jews, the Holocaust is a horrible event that is nonetheless sacred and holy. The victims of the Holocaust were totally defenseless and innocent, and were not a political power at all. Jewish people rightly look in this event as sacred, because it was the martyrdom of half of the Jewish people, men and women and children who were completely helpless and innocent. To desecrate the Holocaust by accusing Jews of doing the same thing, is as serious and senseless and outrageous a sacrilege as urinating on a Koran or raping another person's spouse or child.

To desecrate the sacred memory of those who died in the Holocaust, is the ultimate outrage that one can commit against the Jewish people, far more racist and outrageous than desecrating the Torah.

If you think the conduct of the Israeli government has been deplorable for generations, say to - and explain why. I'll most probably agree with you. However, don't resort to comparing anything to the Holocaust.

Don't say it's OK for so-and-so to desecrate the Holocaust because he/she is "half Jewish." Most likely, he or she was not raised in the Jewish tradition, and doesn't understand the seriousness of the offense.

I'm telling you this: desecrating the memory of the Holocaust is the worst act of racism you can commit against a Jew, and the conduct of Israel is no justification for your racism. Israel has done horrible things, but that does not give you justification to desecrate the Holocaust. Whatever the offense of the other party, it is never a justification for us to respond with racism. Even liberals need to know that.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM

This conflict has to do with a technologically advanced country that has over-reacted to a continued series of daily rocket attacks by Hamas. (The rocket attacks occurred daily for years.) Not one damned person on this or any other thread said they deplored that. You are now saying "He hit me back first." If Hamas gave a shit about the safety and security of its people, it would have halted the attacks. PLEASE, do NOT cover your hatred of Jews by making it out to be a hatred of Israel. I am making this post as a general statement. If the shoe fit . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:09 PM

I'd wholly agree with Joe there about misusing the Holocaust as a way of making a point, or justifying some action. That gets done too often, both by critics of Israel and supporters, as well as in other contexts.

I don't actually think that was actually what was being done there in that comment that has been described as "anti-semitic". But the fact that it elicited the assumption that it was being done is a reminder of how carefully people should tread in this area.

The same goes for unsubtantiated allegations that critics of Israel are expressing "hatred of Jews", which can fall very close to that kind of misuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM

And where was YOUR protest when Hamas was attacking Israel daily?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:24 PM

Thanks Joe.

And Peace, as per usual, you are 100% correct in what you say.

Speaking as a Jew who believes in Israel, I do not agree with much of what Israel has done historically and recently.

Speaking as a Canadian, I do not agree with much of what Canada has done historically (or recently in denying freedom of expression to English-speakers in Quebec, the province I gew up in).

I know there are many Americans who do not agree with what their country has done in many places over many years. The numbers of innocent Iraqis killed by the Americans in the past few years completely dwarfs the numbers of innocent Palestinians killed by Israelis over its entire history. Which is not to excuse the killing of any innocent people. And let us not forget that it is only innocent civilians, and not military targets, that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups target.

And let us not forget that yesterday Barack Obama, an African American, moved into a house that was built by the slave labor of African Americans. I am old enough to remember when African Americans were legally segregated and denied voting rights in many parts of the United States of America.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

I agree that one shouldn't hold all Jews responsible for what the government of Israel is and has been doing. The world is deeply indebted to the many thousands (possibly millions) of Jews worldwide who are working very hard to try to stop these things from being done, some of them even making the ultimate sacrifice in service to this end.

On the subject of desecrating the memory of the Holocaust, however, there are Holocaust survivors, and descendents of Holocaust survivors, who feel that it is the government of Israel that is desecrating the memory of the Holocaust by using it as moral cover for what they are doing. The video posted above from Sir Gerald Kaufman, reposted here, provides an example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 05:53 PM

"...continued series of daily rocket attacks by Hamas. (The rocket attacks occurred daily for years.) Not one damned person on this or any other thread said they deplored that."

Actually, there are several of us who have made that point over and over.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:05 PM

Some of us also haven't expressed an opinion about Israel's most recent attack on Gaza, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

I've said my bit about the evils of Hamas in the wrong thread, the 'Taleban blowing up schools' thread...

So I'll say this, instead, and it will hopefully bring some warmth hope and light to this thread...

The other day, I wrote to a young woman I have spoken to a few times in Myspace, Aliza Hava. Aliza is Jewish, lives in the USA but is often out in Israel, joining with her musician friends out there, both Israeli and Palestinian, working to help bring about peace.
I just wanted to let her know that I was thinking about her, and her friends. Here is her reply, with her link put in below:

"Thank you, Lizzie, for your message.

I am in Israel right now, working with Palestinians and Israelis who want peace. This week I will be going to the West Bank to play with Arab and Jewish musicians and performing in a concert to raise money for an indigenous rights organization here in the Holy Land. Please let your friends know that there is hope, that there are many people on the ground working for change. In fact, there is a huge humanitarian aid drive being run now by Israelis to send blankets and food to people in Gaza. There is an article about it here: http://www. jpost. com/servlet/Satellite?cid=12 32292897793&pagename=JPost%2FJPArt.

Your email is so deeply appreciated.

Bless you and thank you again for your encouragement and prayers.

All the best,
Aliza"

Aliza's link from above - Israelis helping Palestinians

Aliza Hava Myspace

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

OK, while some a backpeddling here I'll admit thamaybe I was a bit to harsh by my comparsions to Hilter & the Nazi machine. But I was not to far off base.
I do not support the rocket fire from Hams & never did thought I can understand & if I had grown up in Gaza under the foot of the Israeli's I most likely would be firing rockets myself unless they'd had opened up a border so I could take my family & leave, which is what the govenment of Israel wants.

HJoe, I do believe it is "attempted extermination" that is being practiced by the Isralei's. How else can one explain the ruinaton of a people, thier homes, thier infrastructure, leaving them without medical facilities, supplies or treatment (against international law & the Geneva Conventions), access to clean & drinkable water & food. The destrruction of homes & shelter from the carnage. Those who weren't killed will in many cases die from a lack of resources, medical attention, injuries that have gone untreated, disease that will follow the unsanitary conditions that come with the destruction of Gaza. What do you call it, war. It's not war when a civilion population is under blockade, lockdown, restriction of goods, food & medical supplies & then is attacked by another nations military might & with the force that's uncalled for. Neither can you call it "Tit for Tat" nor pay back. It's clearly not revenge. It's the subjugation of a people for the complete control & if subjugation doesn't work annilhilation is what follows as we have seen. Is that not the same as attempting extermination?

C.Ham, Thanks for the family history & background. My father was decorated in WWII, his family was driven out of Eastern Europe. As A Jew my father who has no living relitaves left living in Europe, so neither do I, he opposed Israel's subugation of all the peoples of the Occupied Terrorities, so do I. So, I don't care where you're from or who you are, if you support what Israel has just done to Gaza you are a supporter of a government that supports & wages extermination on a weaker people & for the uunjust reasons that it is only protecting itself. Well, when you keep taking the food off my table, you prevent me form earning a living, deprive me of my basic human needs & requirements for a sustainable live you'll have to excuse me while I break you neck & try to get on with the process of living.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:27 PM

Joe your post was very thoughtful for the most part, but you damn Israel with faint praise when you write, "But still, I don't see evidence of systematic extermination on a scale anywhere comparable to the Holocaust."

There is no systematic extermination on any scale! Israel has attacked smuggling tunnels, and places whence rocket attacks emanated. There have been a couple of questionable targets, but those may yet have been places that Hamas was using, too.

Frankly, I think Israel left too soon. Hamas is already rebuilding and using tunnels to re-supply. This kabuki theater will encore in 12-18 months when the Israeli government tires of having rockets fired at Israeli cities. But by then Hamas will be better armed and able to inflict more 'equitable' damage on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:31 PM

Once again I make the point that, so far as I can, see there is nobody posting on the Mudcat who thinks that Hamas firing those rockets has been the right thing to do. If there were, there would be every reason for those who do not believe these actions are justified to express strong disagreement with them. That would include me.

On the other hand there are a number of people people who do think that Israel's attacks on Gaza, and its imposition of a brutal blockade, have been the right thing to do.   And that means that there is every reason people who do not believe these actions are justified to express strong disagreement with them. And that includes me as well.

In both cases I believe that the violence and brutality not merely causes death and suffering to innocent people on the other side, it also endangers people on the same side, and entrenches the conflict. All it produces is more dead and maimed people and devastated lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:43 PM

re my Crips and Bloods analogy--
Bobert-
Are you saying that , in a gang situation, the little old ladies in the garden club who are attacking the other gang, however ineffectually, should get our sympathy and support? Look, massive retaliation, whether one likes it or not, is a time-honored tactic.

The only way to stop it is to have a stronger force policing both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:54 PM

I was hoping to go to Israel in March, but the trip got cancelled - a combination of the current political situation in Israel and the economic situation in the U.S. made it so we didn't have enought people for the tour.

When I was in Israel in 1999, I was disturbed by the attitudes Israelis had about Palestinians, very similar to the racist attitudes white people had about Blacks when I was growing up in Detroit and Milwaukee. The Israelis I met were nice, decent people - but almost all of them had distressing, racist things to say about Palestinians. What I heard Israelis say about Palestinians, was almost a carbon copy of what I heard from nice white people about Blacks as a kid.

Racism is never right. The "other side" may have its faults, but the reason for those faults is never race or ethnic origin. We need to learn to never use racism as a weapon, to address issues, not race. Even if the "other side" is racist, that does not justify our own racism.

The memory of those who died in the Holocaust is sacred, and we need to always respect their sacred memory. They were innocent victoms of a horrible act. I suppose that's the worst part of warfare, especially modern warfare. Instead of attacking an opponent directly, too often the victims of war are the innocent ones. I suppose that's why rape is one of the most horrible outrages of war - the victim is almost always totally innocent and helpless. When a soldier kills another soldier, there is some justification, I suppose - but when warfare involves rape and destruction of homes and desecration of what people hold sacret, it is an outrage.

In the 60-year war in Palestine, these outrages have been committed continually on both sides. The people primarily responsible are the leaders, although I think that a culture of hate and racism has developed among the common people on both sides. That makes true and lasting peace almost impossible.

What will it take to bring lasting peace to Palestine? Is there any hope?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:46 AM

"In the 60-year war in Palestine, these outrages have been committed continually on both sides. The people primarily responsible are the leaders, although I think that a culture of hate and racism has developed among the common people on both sides. That makes true and lasting peace almost impossible."

Amen to that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:48 AM

My apologies to PDQ and some others. I know you did. Heat of the moment is no excuse. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:50 AM

The following is an op-ed from today's National Post by the Honourable Irwin Cotler, law professor, noted human rights activist, former Minister of Justice of Canada, Member of Parliament (Mount Royal).

***
Beyond the fog of war

Asking yourself these 13 questions about the Israel-Hamas conflict might actually help resolve it

The Israeli-Hamas conflict, with its evocative images of human suffering, has engaged the hearts and minds of people the world over. Indeed, the death of any innocent — Israeli or Palestinian — is a tragedy, and no one can fail to be moved by the human suffering and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

But the immediate cessation of violence that was declared over the weekend — and that has so far held — may not endure. If we want to prevent further tragedies, it is important to go beyond the "fog of war" — to go behind the daily headlines that cloud understanding and the cliches (the "cycle of violence") that corrupt it — and ask some fundamental questions about the root causes of this war and the basis for its resolution.

1 Do you agree that Israel, like any other state, has the right to live in peace and security, free from any threats or acts of force?

2 Are you aware that Hamas has launched over 8,000 missiles, rockets and mortars from behind civilian areas, deliberately targeting and terrorizing the Israeli civilian population these last three years, constituting an armed attack prohibited by the UN Charter? Are you aware that despite a six-month truce, Hamas launched close to 3,000 armed attacks in 2008 alone?

3 Do you agree that Israel — like any other state — has an obligation to protect its citizens, and a right to selfdefence against armed attack as set forth in Article 51 of the UN Charter?

As then-U.S. secretary of state Condoleezza Rice put it to the UN Security Council, echoing the words of both U.S. President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel: "The situation before the current events in Gaza was clearly not sustainable. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis lived under the daily threat of rocket attack, and frankly, no country, none of our countries, would have been willing to tolerate such a circumstance."

4 Do you agree that Israel's exercise of self-defence must comport with the principles of international humanitarian law, including the principle of proportionality and the prohibition against the infliction of unnecessary suffering?

5 Do you agree that Palestinians in Gaza have the same right as Israelis to live in peace and security? Are you aware of the domestic repression by Hamas of Palestinian rights in Gaza, including converting the civilian infrastructure to a weapons depot and exploiting the civilian population as human shields, as is now being observed even in the Arab press?

6 Do you agree that the ceasefire must be durable and sustaining to protect the peace and security of both Israelis and Palestinians?

If so, then let us look deeper at what this conflict is truly about.

7 Are you aware that the border crossings — between Egypt and Gaza, and between Gaza and Israel — have been used to smuggle terrorists, weapons, munitions and contraband, when they should be open instead for the movement of people and trade, as set forth in the 2005 Israeli-Palestinian Agreement on Movement and Access?

8 Are you aware that Hamas is designated a terrorist entity by Canada, the United States and the European Union, and that UN Security Council resolutions require Palestinian governing authorities to deny safe havens to terrorists?

9 Are you aware that the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews wherever they might be?

10 Are you aware that this genocidal ideology is shared not only by Hamas but also by Iran and its proxy immediately north of Israel, Hezbollah. Did you know that Iran is training, financing, supplying and instigating terrorist action by Hamas and Hezbollah to carry out this existential threat to Israel?

11 Are you aware that Hamas — not only during the present hostilities, but before them, too — has propagated a state-sanctioned culture of hate, in the mosques, in the schools, in the broadcasting system and in the summer camps and training camps, which teaches that Jews are inherently evil, a cancer, responsible for all the evils of the world, the sons of apes and pigs and the defilers of Islam?

12 Do you agree that such statements promote hatred and contempt for Jews, and constitute an obstacle to peace?
The next generation of Palestinians must be one that is capable of keeping the peace with Israel. It is in the interests of neither Israelis nor Palestinians themselves to perpetuate this false "conflict of civilizations" — and yet perpetual conflict is exactly what Hamas, by its own acknowledgment, wants, until Israel's demise.
So then, a final question:

13 Do you agree that a comprehensive and enduring ceasefire must include: the reaffirmation — as a bottom-line commitment, as President Obama has put it — of Israel's right to live in peace; the cessation of all acts of terror and violence against Israeli civilians, the casus belli of these hostilities; the withdrawal of Israel from Gaza; the establishment of an international protection and stabilization force to enforce the ceasefire and protect against smuggling and the manufacture of weapons; the deployment of a massive humanitarian undertaking to ensure assistance reaches those in need; the opening of border crossings; the initiation of a comprehensive program for the reconstruction of Gaza and the rehabilitation of its citizens; and the freeing of Palestinian society from the cynical and oppressive culture of hate and incitement fuelled by Hamas?

I close on a personal note. I write not only as a law professor and MP, but as one who has family in Israel and friends in Palestine, and who has lived and worked in the region and been engaged in the struggle for peace for more than 35 years.

The overriding truth of these past 35 years for me has always been clear and remains the same. I will stand with those who support the right of peoples in the Middle East — Israelis and Palestinians alike — to live in peace and security, free from any threats or acts of force, a cornerstone of UN principle and Canadian foreign policy; and I will oppose all those, like Hamas and its patron Iran, who seek the destruction of any people or state in violation of the UN Charter and all civilized norms.

Irwin Cotler is professor of law (on leave) at McGill University, the Opposition Critic for Human Rights and the MP for Mount Royal. He has written extensively on the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:53 AM

Gazan doctor says death toll inflated


Physician at Gaza's Shifa Hospital tells Italian newspaper number of dead in Israeli offensive 'stands at no more than 500 or 600, most of them youths recruited to Hamas' ranks'. Senior Palestinian Health Ministry official denies claims, IDF estimate on 1,200 casualties in Strip remains unchanged

What really is behind the numbers reported on the number of civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip? Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported Thursday that a doctor working in Gaza's Shifa Hospital claimed that Hamas has intentionally inflated the number of casualties resulting from Israel's Operation Cast Lead.

"The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter," according to the newspaper article.

The doctor wished to remain unidentified, out of fear for his life.

A senior Palestinian Health Ministry official later denied the claims, and the Israel Defense Forces' estimate on the number of casualties in Gaza has also remained unchanged.

Despite the claims, the IDF stood behind its estimate that between 1,100 to 1,200 people were killed in the Strip during the fighting, more than two-thirds of them Hamas members.

The army initially believed that the number of civilian casualties was higher, as many Hamas men walked outside their houses dressed in civilian clothes, leaving their weapons at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:54 AM

more...


Dr. Moaiya Hassanain, who is in change of the emergency department at the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza, denied the figures presented by the Italian paper.

Hassanain told Ynet that the Palestinian figures were issued cautiously, without any political considerations, and that several casualties may not have been reported as their bodies are still under the rubble or have not been handed over to the rescue forces and authorized medical officials.

'Mostly armed teenagers'
A Tal al-Hawa resident told the newspaper's reporter, "Armed Hamas men sought out a good position for provoking the Israelis. There were mostly teenagers, aged 16 or 17, and armed. They couldn't do a thing against a tank or a jet. They knew they are much weaker, but they fired at our houses so that they could blame Israel for war crimes."

The reporter for the Italian newspaper also quoted reporters in the Strip who told of Hamas' exaggerated figures, "We have already said to Hamas commanders – why do you insist on inflating the number of victims?"

These same reporters mentioned that the truth that will come out is likely to be similar to what occurred in Operation Defensive Shield in Jenin. "Then, there was first talk of 1,500 deaths. But then it turned out that there were only 54, 45 of which were armed men," the Palestinian reporters told the Italian newspaper.

These new figures must be treated with caution especially in light of the fact that various official sources in the Gaza Strip, including United Nations and Red Cross officials, have reported that more than 1,300 people were killed and some 5,000 wounded during the three weeks of fighting in the coastal strip. Palestinian sources claim that three-quarters of the dead were unarmed civilians.

Hamas, while boasting on having Israeli soldiers by the dozens, a number that has proven to be exaggerated, claimed that no more than 48 of its members were killed during the Israeli offensive. According to IDF figures, Hamas lost hundreds of fighters from its ranks.