BS: American Presidential race 2024

Subject: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 08:15 PM

We aren't starting any more Trump threads and we keep it to one UK politics thread at a time now, because it keeps the fighting to a minimum and in a controlled environment. Nasty BS threads are the reason we lost a lot of members over the years, and setting BS threads to members only helped contain that problem.

Clearly the hand-wringing over Biden and Trump as candidates and the recent debate is going to spill over into other threads unless it is contained in ONE PLACE. The urge to bring the presidential debate into the Trump conviction thread has resulted in a lot of deletions already.

Nasty stuff will be deleted. This is a moderated thread. Some of you get out of control, and you know who you are. Keep it civil, and helpful, if possible. There is a lot the world can learn about American politics from how the next four months and one week progress.

A couple of large newspapers have taken it upon themselves to call to Biden to step down, but the debate was not an example of Biden's failing as a president, it is simply an example of how the "Gish Gallop" technique of peppering your debate opponent with so many lies that deciding which to respond to looks like hesitation or inability to answer.

Read the more thoughtful examinations of the debate - reasonable Democrats have moved on and are still firmly behind Biden. Trump would be a disaster for the world and there is no changing candidates at this time. All of the various UK member negative views expressed over the months have been an annoyance to those of us working to get Biden reelected.

This discussion would benefit from links to thoughtful analysis in non-US news sites and forums. There will be links to American sites that offer rational examinations of the race.

Let's start here: many of us are old enough to know about the Pentagon Papers and the outsized role that Bob Woodward has played in analyzing and reporting on American presidential politics. I'll start this thread with a link to an interview with Woodward. As he wisely states, let's look for an answer.

Bob Woodward brands Biden debate performance a ‘political h-bomb’

Watergate reporter and long-time Washington Post associate editor Bob Woodward said President Biden’s debate performance was a “political hydrogen bomb” and the public deserves to know what really happened.

Woodward joined MSNBC’s Air Melber on Friday following the debate, where he said the performance was “so bad, so awful” that reporters must be looking for some explanation from his staff.

“I think the answer here is in reporting, in seeking very aggressively, an explanation — what happened here?” Woodward said. “We don’t want it to come out in some book or some memoir in a couple of years or a decade. We’d need to know now.”

Woodward speculated that during preparations ahead of the debate — a likely strategy for the Biden campaign, given it proposed the debate in the first place — that the president got into a “knock down, drag out fight” with his staff.

Either way, the public should know, Woodward argued.

The President appeared on stage with a hoarse voice and a slight cough. He stumbled with answers and at times didn’t finish his sentence. Sources familiar with Biden said he had a cold.

Biden’s debate performance sparked widespread fear among Democrats about his ability to beat former President Trump in the polls this fall. Some even are calling for him to step aside and let someone else attempt to defeat Trump.

Woodward said the calls for Biden to suspend are “inevitable” because of how bad his performance was.

“I sat there and watched it and I could not believe it. I said, not only is this a political hydrogen bomb for him and the Democratic Party, it, you know — what happened? What happened?” he said.

Calls for the president to drop out are not hasty, Woodward said, but more energy should go toward seeking an explanation behind the debate performance.

“Look, let’s step back. If a building blows up in downtown of some city, the story will be what happened and then the story will be how did this happen, why did this happen? And that’s where I’m very, very curious because this was a mega disaster,” Woodward said.

The answer was provided by the historian (and goddess in liberal political circles) Heather Cox Richardson, who posted the night of the debate about what happened DURING the debate.

Tonight was the first debate between President Joe Biden and presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, and by far the most striking thing about the debate was the overwhelming focus among pundits immediately afterward about Biden’s appearance and soft, hoarse voice as he rattled off statistics and events. Virtually unmentioned was the fact that Trump lied and rambled incoherently, ignored questions to say whatever he wanted; refused to acknowledge the events of January 6, 2021; and refused to commit to accepting the result of the 2024 presidential election, finally saying he would accept it only if it met his standards for fairness.

Immediately after the debate, there were calls for Biden to drop out of the race, but aside from the fact that the only time a presidential candidate has ever done that—in 1968—it threw the race into utter confusion and the president’s party lost, Biden needed to demonstrate that his mental capacity is strong in order to push back on the Republicans’ insistence that he is incapable of being president. That, he did, thoroughly. Biden began with a weak start but hit his stride as the evening wore on. Indeed, he covered his bases too thoroughly, listing the many accomplishments of his administration in such a hurry that he was sometimes hard to understand.

In contrast, Trump came out strong but faded and became less coherent over time. His entire performance was either lies or rambling non-sequiturs. He lied so incessantly throughout the evening that it took CNN fact-checker Daniel Dale almost three minutes, speaking quickly, to get through the list.

Trump said that some Democratic states allow people to execute babies after they’re born and that every legal scholar wanted Roe v. Wade overturned—both fantastical lies. He said that the deficit is at its highest level ever and that the U.S. trade deficit is at its highest ever: both of those things happened during his administration. He lied that there were no terrorist attacks during his presidency; there were many. He said that Biden wants to quadruple people’s taxes—this is “pure fiction,” according to Dale—and lied that his tax cuts paid for themselves; they have, in fact, added trillions of dollars to the national debt.

Dale went on: Trump lied that the U.S. has provided more aid to Ukraine than Europe has when it’s the other way around, and he was off by close to $100 billion when he named the amount the U.S. has provided to Ukraine. He was off by millions when he talked about how many migrants have crossed the border under Biden, and falsely claimed that some of Biden’s policies—like funding historically Black colleges and universities (HBCUs) and reducing the price of insulin to $35 a month—were his own accomplishments.

There is no point in going on, because virtually everything he said was a lie. As Jake Lahut of the Daily Beast recorded, he also was all over the map. “On January 6,” Trump said, “we had a great border.” To explain how he would combat opioid addiction, he veered off into talking points about immigration and said his administration “bought the best dog.” He boasted about acing a cognitive test and that he had just recently won two golf club tournaments without mentioning that they were at his own golf courses. “To do that, you have to be quite smart and you have to be able to hit the ball a long way,” he said. “I can do it.”

As Lahut recorded, Trump said this: “Clean water and air. We had it. We had the H2O best numbers ever, and we were using all forms of energy during my 4 years. Best environmental numbers ever, they gave me the statistic [sic.] before I walked on stage actually.”

Trump also directly accused Biden of his own failings and claimed Biden’s own strengths, saying, for example, that Biden, who has enacted the most sweeping legislation of any president since at least Lyndon Johnson, couldn’t get anything done while he, who accomplished only tax cuts, was more effective. He responded to the calling out of his own criminal convictions by saying that Biden “could be a convicted felon,” and falsely stating: “This man is a criminal.” And, repeatedly, Trump called America a “failing nation” and described it as a hellscape.

It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.

It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.

There are ways to combat the Gish gallop—by calling it out for what it is, among other ways—but Biden retreated to trying to give the three pieces of evidence that established his own credentials on the point at hand. His command of those points was notable, but the difference between how he sounded at the debate and how he sounded on stage at a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, just an hour afterward suggested that the technique worked on him.

That’s not ideal, but as Monique Pressley put it, “The proof of Biden’s ability to run the country is the fact that he is running it. Successfully. Not a debate performance against a pathological lying sociopath.”

A much bigger deal is what it says that the television media and pundits so completely bought into Trump’s performance. They appear to have accepted Trump’s framing of the event—that he is dominant—so fully that the fact Trump unleashed a flood of lies and non-sequiturs simply didn’t register. And, since the format established that the CNN journalists running the debate did not challenge anything either candidate said, and Dale’s fact-checking spot came long after the debate ended, the takeaway of the event was a focus on Biden’s age rather than on Trump’s inability to tell the truth or form a coherent thought.

At the end of the evening, pundits were calling not for Trump—a man liable for sexual assault and business fraud, convicted of 34 felonies, under three other indictments, who lied pathologically—to step down, but for Biden to step down…because he looked and sounded old. At 81, Biden is indeed old, but that does not distinguish him much from Trump, who is 78 and whose inability to answer a question should raise concerns about his mental acuity.

About the effect of tonight’s events, former Republican operative Stuart Stevens warned: “Don’t day trade politics. It’s a sucker’s game. A guy from Queens out on bail bragged about overturning Roe v. Wade, said in public he didn’t have sex with a porn star, defended tax cuts for billionaires, defended Jan. 6th. and called America the worst country in the world. That guy isn’t going to win this race.”

Trump will clearly have pleased his base tonight, but Stevens is right to urge people to take a longer view. It’s not clear whether Trump or Biden picked up or lost votes; different polls gave the win to each, and it’s far too early to know how that will shake out over time.

Of far more lasting importance than this one night is the clear evidence that stage performance has trumped substance in political coverage in our era. Nine years after Trump launched his first campaign, the media continues to let him call the shots.

Notes:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/all-the-crazy-things-trump-said-you-might-have-missed-in-biden-debate

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/04/trump-biden-presidential-debate-prep-408651

https://archive.is/JNu8D

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/27/us/politics/trump-revenge-biden-convicted-felon.html

X:
stuartpstevens/status/1806528635391631485

ddale8/status/1806517477163061469

MoniquePressley/status/1806527221881847898

Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 10:11 PM

from Australia -

Key takeaways from the US presidential debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump By North America correspondent Barbara Miller and Basel Hindeleh, Posted Fri 28 Jun 2024 at 2:54pm, updated Fri 28 Jun 2024 at 3:40pm

Joe Biden and Donald Trump get personal in 'game-changing' debate ahead of 2024 election — as it happened Posted Fri 28 Jun 2024 at 9:21am, updated Fri 28 Jun 2024 at 4:01pm
US President Joe Biden and former president Donald Trump have concluded their debate in Atlanta, Georgia — and pundits were united in their view that it was a bad night for the president. Take a look back at how the debate unfolded — and how America reacted.

Beyond Biden and Trump, American politicians are amongst the oldest in the world. Is that good for democracy?

Presidential Debate: “The Worst in the History of the United States” Dr Adam Bartley is a Fulbright Scholar and resident fellow at the Elliot School for International Affairs, the George Washington University. In addition to this, he is a post-doctoral fellow at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology and program manager of the AI Trilateral Experts Group. He is also managing editor for AIIA’s Australian Outlook. Twitter: @AaBartley
Jade Kingston is the Australian Outlook Book Reviews Coordinator. She is a fourth-year student of International Security Studies at the Australian National University in Canberra, minoring in Bahasa Indonesia.
This article is published under a Creative Commons License and may be republished with attribution.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 10:45 PM

I thought I posted this article from ABC (in Oz). It's a good analytical piece by Jade Macmillan.

Could Joe Biden be replaced? Why the president is refusing to give in to his critics

Also I have watched most of the PBS Washington Week With The Atlantic discussion this morning (on SBS TV in Oz) and I'm about to watch the rest of it. The panelists have some good analysis of the debate and its possible consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 11:31 PM

And thanks Stilly for setting up a new thread specifically about the American Presidential race 2024 and for stating the ground rules for debate so clearly. I have said this to the Mudelfs on previous occasions but I'm saying it again here: I trust your judgement and I will respect your decisions.

The statement about the "Gish Gallop" technique makes a lot of sense to me.

"A couple of large newspapers have taken it upon themselves to call to Biden to step down, but the debate was not an example of Biden's failing as a president, it is simply an example of how the 'Gish Gallop' technique of peppering your debate opponent with so many lies that deciding which to respond to looks like hesitation or inability to answer."

So many lies told by Trump, so many possible responses by Biden but where to start in the short time allocated for each response. It would be like trying to hold back a tsunami.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 05:00 AM

The effect on hesitating voters is what's important, though.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 05:17 AM

World reaction to the debate

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 07:03 AM

The priority should be defeating Trump, for the good of our nation and the world, and if the best way to make that happen is replacing President Biden on the ticket so be it. His poor performance the other night just reinforces the portrait that Trump's been painting of him as a weak old man and none of the excuses being bandied about for him are going to dispel that image in the minds of some voters who may have thought otherwise before that debate. I like and respect the president and have since he was my senator some 40 years ago, though I thought he wasn't quite liberal enough , and have contributed to his last 2 campaigns but I have real concerns about his ability to win this thing and have sent a snail-mail urging him to do what's best for the country and to comply with whatever the Democratic Party hierarchy decides. There's just too much at stake.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 08:30 AM

I have to agree with Gilly, the top priority must be to defeat Trump and elect a Democrat President. There’s too much at stake for the US and for the whole world, and the DP top-brass need to recognise that and do what’s necessary to bring it about.

I’m an admirer of Pres. Biden, but I’m no longer convinced he continues to have what’s essential to ensure another term. I’m sad about that, but this is the Real World we inhabit and cruel truths have to be faced. What the US does affects not only American citizens, but everyone else in the world and, although I’m not particularly religious, I’m praying the DP in particular, and American voters in general, make the right decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 10:29 AM

One wonky debate under gaslighting circumstances and all of you are ready to throw in the towel. Such sunny-day Democrats! Some newspapers are lobbying for a new candidate - this is too important an issue to have those mouthpieces taking that stand, perhaps testing their own influence despite a possible bad outcome.

Any other time listen to Biden, he's just fine. Always better than Trump, and he's the candidate. Get over it and move on. Time to make sure Trump is a loser - again.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 02:25 PM

How many people remember Obama's first debate against Mitt Romney? It didn't go very well but he was not 80 years old at the time.

I am appalled (though I should know better) at the reaction to the debate, but it is the immediate reaction to the debate that is a symptom of the television / internet age that accelerates responsiveness to barely more than knee-jerk status.

The New York Times Editorial Board is nothing more than a bunch of kiddies afraid of the teeter-totter.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 03:25 PM

My first thoughts after the debate were that it might be time for Joe Biden to rethink his tilt at a second term, but after his rally performance in Raleigh, North Carolina I can see that he still has what it takes to get the job done.

The look on Biden's face as he watched Trump in the debate, what I saw, well, I think the best word for it was disgust. I think it was Jeffrey Goldberg on PBS Washington Week With The Atlantic who said that one of the factors which may have affected Biden's performance was having to stand in the same room as Trump and interact with him. That would put any right-minded person off their game, in my opinion. Like standing next to a crocodile which could attack at any moment.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 07:18 PM

Dick, your posts were deleted from the Trump CONVICTION thread as irrelevant to that topic. This thread was started as a place for that energy to go, since clearly people were responding to the change of topic. DO NOT SEND ME PMs TO DEFEND YOUR BEHAVIOR OR COMPLAIN ABOUT MODERATION.

Given a weekend, I hope people calm down and get back on track. Biden is the only candidate at this point, and is one the to beat Trump. (If he did step down, Hillary would have to take his place.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 07:43 PM

Unfortunately, I think the stakes are too high to put a female candidate into the running because I think there are a lot of voters who would never vote for a woman for President.

I'm sticking to my opinion that Biden can win.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 08:13 PM

I have said this before in one of the Trump discussions, but I think a lot of the political issues in the US would be less troublesome without relying on the presidential system.

Sorry! I try not to disrespect other democracies, but in Australia (and other countries with a democratic system which evolved from the UK system) voters in each electoral area vote for the person s/he feels could best represent their interests and their electorate in parliament. Then whichever political party gains the majority of representatives takes power and the previously chosen leader of that party becomes the Prime Minister, i.e. that leader is chosen by the party prior to the election.

Unfortunately, especially in the Trump and post-Trump era, I can see that the consequences of voting for one person as President can be far-reaching and in Trump's case, extremely scary.

There used to be a big move in Australia to try to convince people to change our political system to a republic and break away from the monarchy. I used to think it might be a good idea, but I now think that there needs to be prior discussion on how to avoid the potential for the cult-of-personality ambushing of the presidential elections.

I think the chances of the US changing the current political system are at about the same level of introducing tight gun control. Nil, nada, zip.

That's all just my opinion so please ignore it if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 09:06 PM

Helen, as a Canadian I agree with you one hundred percent. Sir Winston Churchill once cracked that the Westminster system of parliamentary democracy is the worst system in the world — “except for all the others.” I think he had a point.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jun 24 - 09:14 PM

Thanks Charmion. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 11:04 AM

The Supreme Court just gave Trump a helluva lot of wiggle room - there will still be lower court hearings, but less likely that cases can go forward before the election.

I haven't heard the pundits talk about the Florida documents case or the Georgia interference and false electors case. If they can shake their cases free of this decision can they move forward? The Florida one won't because that judge is his faithful lapdog. Georgia? Willis is still struggling to keep the whole thing viable (the GOP part of her state is fighting against that case.)

I await interpretation by clear and knowledgeable heads.

Now for July 11 - that had nothing to do with official acts, and we hope the judge will give jail time.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 10:42 PM

We the people - this 23 minutes is important. Vital.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 09:32 AM

When Biden wins next time let's hope his coattails bring in a robust Democratic House and Senate. Suspend the filibuster on day one. They will then have two years in which to pass the Voting Rights Act, to remedy the Citizens United decision (allowing corporate money into politics because they are "people" with first amendment rights as it stands now). Alito needs to retire and the House needs to impeach Clarence Thomas and pack the court with 2 or 3 reasonable jurists.

Roe v Wade needs to be restored, absolute rights to receive contraception codified. The ability of federal agencies to regulate industry needs to be restored. The cap on Social Security sits at $400,000 of an individual's income - remove the cap and SS will be in much better condition. Apply the "wealth tax" that Warren has proposed for years.

They may have the house and senate for his entire four years, but things can change with the House (in particular) every two years. Backlash in particular. But the big money needs to come out of politics asap.

Fixing the mess the Supreme Court made about presidential powers - that might take a Constitutional amendment. Or another case in which the more reasonable supreme court voids this week's nonsense.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 01:17 PM

I hope the Biden camp seizes on this SCOTUS ruling as being a pathway for the dictatorship that Trump has longed for. Make it a major issue.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 05:47 PM

This is becoming the disaster that everyone but those looking through rose coloured glasses have been predicting all along. I understand that this is upsetting to those who are working hard to prevent it but stopping us from saying it will do nothing to help.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 06:40 PM

So tell us what your crystal ball predicts, Dave.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 09:19 PM

You can stop pushing it in people's faces. That would be really nice. We're working on it. Your complaining isn't helping anyone.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 02 Jul 24 - 09:36 PM

I agree. I was a Union rep in most of my different jobs and the unions and the members usually followed the unofficial motto, "If You Don't Fight You Lose". Sitting back and admitting defeat without taking proactive action is not going to win the fight, and doom-mongering is not helpful for motivating the people who are trying to be proactive.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 02:41 AM

My crystal ball says he is going to win but I sincerely hope that it is wrong.

I am not pushing it in anyone's face or complaining and I am doing as much as I can about it as I can. If it is wrong to voice my fears in the hope that someone will listen then so be it. Sitting in a sycophantic echo chamber does not help much either.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 02:47 AM

I did not watch the debate. I have not watched any of the debates here for our forthcoming UK election.

I am not a fan of them at all.

In the real world all politicians will have information in front of them, they will not be relying solely on their memory. They will also be surrounded by advisers.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 03:01 AM

This article is by John Barron who co-hosts the (Oz) ABC show Planet America, and the less formal Planet America Fireside Chat. The show always conveys excellent analysis and balanced views. (By balanced, I mean common sense. They are not big fans of DT.) The whole article is worth reading, in my opinion.

Should the Democrats replace Joe Biden as presidential candidate? History says it's a risky move

The article presents an argument that to replace Joe Biden at this stage could lead to a Democrat loss and he uses some pertinent examples from the past.

"Did history scare off challengers to Biden's nomination?

"In 2020 Biden seemed to imply he would only serve a single four-year term, referring to himself as a "bridge" and a "transitional" president. His decision last year to seek a second term came in the afterglow of a solid 2022 midterm election result where Democrats were boosted by the conservative Supreme Court's overturning of the constitutional right to have an abortion.

"Biden remained convinced that like 2020, he is the best-placed Democrat to defeat Donald Trump.

"But there's another reason no high-profile Democrat challenged Biden. They all knew taking on an incumbent president for their party's nomination is almost certainly doomed to failure, and a failure that can also doom the president they challenge."

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:41 AM

"I am not pushing it in anyone's face or complaining", that seems to be exactly what you're doing, Dave. Not very helpful.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:49 AM

Dave, what are you doing about it exactly? "and I am doing as much as I can about it as I can".

And yes, the sycophantic echo chamber which Donald Trump has built around himself is a major part of the problem.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:09 AM

I am pointing out at every opportunity what a disaster it will be if he is elected and bringing a bit of reality to this discussion by pointing out that the rest of the world fears that is a distinct possibility. What are you doing, Helen?

Gillymor. How will not pointing out the above views on an obscure minority interest forum help anyone?

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:19 AM

Dave, I'd rather live my life as a happy warrior than as Chicken Little. I'm all too aware that the absolute worst may happen in November but I don't see the value in agonizing over it.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:53 AM

The sky falling on our heads is not very likely, gilly. Although it may feel like it if the worst does happen :-( This thread has over 700 posts. There is probably no value in most of those either. Other than to get things off people's chests. I am purposely keeping off the election thread at SRS's request but to make sure only certain views are aired smacks of, well, Trumpism!

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 08:04 AM

I don't see the value in discouraging reasonable people, Dave, some of whom, like myself, may be doing volunteer work for the Democratic Party.
Still, I can't say I disagree with the sentiment expressed in the last sentence of your post at 7:53.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 08:33 AM

I do apologise if I am discouraging anyone. I would see it more as spurring them on. There are enought carrots so I am providing a bit of stick :-D

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 08:42 AM

Dave, Trump is a big enough dick, uhh, I mean stick.

Subject: RE: Trump CONVICTED - NO new Trump threads part III
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 09:24 AM

Like my Grandad used to tell me - Always say you don't know! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 11:19 AM

Dave, no one asked you to stay off of the election thread. This is where the real messy part belongs, though the Supreme Court has been making things a lot worse lately. The two topics still merit distinct threads (there are developments to discuss on the other one.)

Supporting Biden doesn't mean we're not aware of all of the moving parts of a campaign for the moral high ground of the US. I have always assumed that Biden has something in the playbook to promote Harris to the presidency. We'll just have to see if that happens sooner than later.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 04:56 PM

Dave, how many times have you posted the same or similar comment in the Trump discussions? How many times do you think you need to say the same or similar comment, especially when you do not add any further analysis or information or updates? You've said it already, ad nauseum. Enough is enough in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 05:47 PM

I'm just reminded of a couple of pertinent English observations. One on England which kinda applies to the whole Democratic unierse:


Spike Milligan quoted from the Goon Show:
"Cheer up dear listeners, Old England isn't finished yet!

lt's finished. . .
. . .
. . .

NOW!"

And Oscar Wilde's observation that America was the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 06:26 PM

I dunno, Helen. You tell me!

How many times have you said that you agree with Stilly?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jul 24 - 07:37 PM

Only when I have agreed with her and when I thought it would add to the conversation, and usually in response to a thoughtful, useful comment.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 01:30 AM

i think Biden might be replaced, in my opinion that is the best way to defeat Trump

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:41 AM

The Biden administration's most important climate action to date was signing the Inflation Reduction Act into law in August 2022, the most comprehensive climate legislation the U.S. has even seen. The law invests hundreds of billions of dollars in clean energy, electric vehicles, environmental justice and more.29 Jan 2024"

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:54 AM

As a candidate Trump said he would rescind Obama's Climate Action Plan, cancel U.S. participation in the Paris Climate Agreement, and stop all U.S. payments towards United Nations global warming programs. Many of his first cabinet picks were people with a history of opposition to the agency they were named to head.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 10:15 AM

I can't believe we are at this point in history.
The very knowledge that nearly half the US population supports this Trump creature makes me feel ill. The most profane, dishonest, self-serving, morally bankrupt person to ever hold high office in this country. In the opening post to this thread an historian is quoted about the Gish Gallop, a technique where you pile lie on top of lies until the fact checkers can't keep up. Something similar happens with actions as well. Trump did so many bad things that people tended to forget one thing as we moved onto the next. From sucking up to dictators while kicking democratic leaders in the teeth all the way up to his horrible mishandling of Covid, it was one thing after another after another. Here's an example: Our staunchest allies in mid-eastern conflict have been the Kurds, most recently as proxy fighters in Syria. That is until Trump stabbed them in the back. After one phone call with Turkish president Erdogan Trump not only pulled out US personnel who were providing cover for the Kurds, he also provided intelligence. including satellite images of Kurdish positions. Turkish attacks began soon after. I consider this to be the most heinous betrayal of an ally in our history, an act that brought dishonor on not only our military but the citizenry as well. There was no strategic reason for selling out the Kurds, just Trump crawling into bed with an autocratic leader.
And no one even remembers the incident because the media barely covered it, but mostly because of so much subsequent heinousness.
As bad as that first term was, a second one would be exponentially worse. Just look at his statements and those of his followers. Dictator on Day 1 and firing 50,000 civil servants and replacing them with inexperienced , untrained Trump loyalists. Our government will be in chaos. Hopefully, the EU will be able to keep Ukraine afloat because Trump wil abandon them on instruction of his Putin overlord and ,seeing this, China may be encouraged in its designs on Taiwan.
In an address to the Politburo after the death of Stalin, Kruschev used the term Cult of Personality to describe his iron grasped control of the USSR. Thats what we are seeing with the Republican party in its      total abrogation of integrity, morality and common sense in some twisted loyalty to the Trump beast.
And speaking of integrity, isn't the fact that Trump appointed Supremes can vote to give him immunity from crime the very essence of corruption? I expect to see a substantial slide from our current 26th position the next time the Corruption index is published. And if you think "26th place ain't so bad", then our expectations of our leadership has already denigrated.
I don't care if Biden descends completely into senility, he would still be preferrable to Trump. Hell. a piece of cheap furniture would make a better president than that criminal Donald Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 10:50 AM

"I can't believe we are at this point in history.
The very knowledge that nearly half the US population supports this Trump creature makes me feel ill."

Are they voting for Trump or the Republican party?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 10:52 AM

NeilD,

Those are polls, that are notoriously inaccurate. I can't believe that 50% of this country supports that buffoon.

More importantly, Trump has injured many people who now will have a great cause to vote to be sure that he doesn't get into office, or his state lapdogs either. The women's vote is hugely important, and two more states are set to have abortion rights on their ballots in November.

It is a wait and watch time now, to see how Biden's interview with ABC's George Stephanopoulos, who was Clinton's Press Secretary and will provide the best gauge of how things are progressing for Biden. He knows the political environment and will have the good questions that test our candidate.

If it was a choice of running out the end of the term and not running again or stepping down, I would want him to step down and put Harris in a place of power now. And get a really good VP; my first choice would be Katie Porter but she and Harris are both from California and the Pres and VP aren't allowed to be from the same state. So look to the Jan. 6 committee for someone smart and up to speed, and might as well bring in disaffected former GOP folks. Try Adam Kinzinger. Liz Cheney is still too conservative for my taste to give her second banana position, but if they chose her, I'd still work for them. The key isn't to take any current House or Senate members who are in seats that need to be held.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:06 AM

I heard on the BBC radio that there might be a problem with the election campaign funding if Biden was dropped.

What would happen to Biden’s campaign cash if he drops out? That’s up to Kamala Harris

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 11:21 AM

Not if it stays with Harris. If they chose another candidate, it would be the "changing horses in the middle of the stream" for one thing (without primaries to make the choice, I predict chaos).

Personally, Biden hits most all of the important buttons and he has smart people working for him; as long as there isn't something actually wrong mentally, I'm fine with him staying in office and working on what needs doing, age isn't important.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:24 PM

NeilD & Stilly, you make a lot of good points.

The prospect of Trump being re-elected is dire. Personally, I think that Biden is your best chance of defeating him.

Unfortunately, even though I think Harris would make a great President, I also think that the probability of a lot of the white male voters and a significant chunk of white female voters would think twice about voting for a woman, especially as she is a woman "of colour". It was hard enough getting our first female Prime Minister in Australia, and then she was subjected to gender bias, even by other elected politicians. She achieved a lot, but could have had a more pleasant and more productive experience than she did.

Strategically, I think the best plan is to keep Biden as the candidate, hopefully he gets elected and then if his health or capability declines during the Presidential term he can step down and Harris will take up the role.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:25 PM

Sadly, Stilly, the facts are rarely taken into account. If it is the public's perception that something is wrong then that will stick. Our last Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was torn apart with stories that he was an antisemitic terrorist supporter. The facts did not bear that out but the mud stuck. If Biden is to ride this out he needs to be stronger than Corbyn and ensure that the rumours of his frailty are stamped out. To do that he must hit hard and regularly. In my opinion of course

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:31 PM

Also, with reference to Oz's first and only female PM, Julia Gillard, our democratic system meant that we weren't voting for her specifically as PM. We vote for the local candidate we want and then the political party with the most successful candidates gains the majority in Parliament and the previously nominated leader of that party becomes the PM in the federal elections or the Premier in state elections. We have had a few female state Premiers.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 02:49 PM

We have had 3 female PMs. Sadly they were all disastrous. I fully support the principle of gender equality but only as long as the encumbant is a capable leader. I really don't know enough about Harris to know if she is. Can you enlighten us, Stilly?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 04 Jul 24 - 07:35 PM

I was watching a music video show and the videos were chosen by an Irish-Australian comedian, Jimeoin. One of the videos was Asshole by Denis Leary, which I haven't seen for many, many years and always thought it was very funny.

Now I listen to the lyrics and think it is all about Trump. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 02:41 AM

I agree that Dems need to stick with Biden at this point. We're too far along in the process to shift gears to a different candidate. Barring a Biden abdication any attempt to move to a new candidate will split the party. A divided Democratic party is about the only path to a Trump victory. We need Unity at least til after the election, then we can go back to bickering. As Will Rogers once stated, "I don't belong to an organized political party...I'm a Democrat."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 05:09 AM

I agree NeilD. The article I linked to on 03 Jul 24 - 03:01 AM presents the argument that changing the candidate at this late stage would jeopardise the chances of a Democrat victory and increase the chances of Trump getting elected.

I think the prime strategic goal has to be keeping Trump out of the White House. Too much depends on that to take unnecessary risks at this stage.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 08:15 AM

Yesterday the people of the UK voted for moderation in politics. Let us hope that the craze will catch on across the pond. Things went that way in 1964 with The Beatles so, 60 years later, another British export is long overdue :-D

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 09:31 AM

"Yesterday the people of the UK voted for moderation in politics."

Seriously?

We have ended up with a party that is too far right for your tastes because a lot of people have voted for a far from moderate party.

A question for the American voters. Do people vote for the candidate or the party in presidential elections?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 10:47 AM

In the US we vote for candidates, but in the US we have the winner-takes-all-votes Electoral College that gives an entire state to the winner in each state, it doesn't let the popular vote stand for the winner. (If there was no electoral college Hillary Clinton would be in her second term right now.)

This was put in place, erroneously, as it turns out, by those founding fathers, back in a day when only white male landowners voted and the small states were afraid of having no power, so every state got two senators, regardless of their population. That has worked against us since forever.

There are 14 states so far (don't quote me, but I think that's the number Robert Reich, former Labor Secretary under Clinton and political activist cites) that have broken with that and the votes are apportioned to the candidates during the electoral college convention (that whole mess on January 6, 2021 was the House accepting the results of the electoral college, where Trump tried to insert his fake electors.)

Some of you who read the Declutter thread may know that last spring I went in for two sleep studies, but they were inconclusive. My days were under-powered, to summarize. No energy, little interest in the usual things. It turns out that my late night work on the computer or reading on screens was the culprit. My own bad habits were washing my eyes and brain with blue light that makes getting to sleep more difficult and having productive sleep almost impossible. I've started turning off the computer a couple of hours before bed - what a change! And at Biden's meeting with Democratic governors this week he told them that he was changing his work habits, not working late into the evening and getting more sleep. I'm willing to bet he had the same problem I was having. It can lead to memory lapses, low energy, and general problems during the day. It is reversible by getting away from the screen and getting better sleep. It is certainly what I have found. It's like flipping a switch, once you back away from the screen, I felt better right away when I started this practice. So too will Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 10:56 AM

Thanks for the response.

But my question remains. Would a Democrat voter vote for a Republican candidate and vice versa?

The impression (and it is an impression) is that party lines in the USA are even more extreme than here in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:07 AM

In the primaries you choose which party and choose your favorite candidate, and if there is a runoff you can only vote in the same party, you can't switch over to boost someone on the other ticket. In the general election there are no such restrictions. A "straight ballot" was sometimes an option - at the top you could darken the box for all Democratic or all Republican candidates, but that was taken away in Texas because some of the down-ballot Republican candidates lost when that happened when Biden was elected. (We have a really awful GOP governor right now.)

I use information from the League of Women Voters (a long-established non-partisan voter rights group) that gives each candidate in all local, county, state, and national races a place to fill out their information and state their policies. https://www.vote411.org/. Once upon a time there were publications with all of this information, now you have to go online to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 11:32 AM

I'll respond to your question in the UK politics thread RD.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 02:39 AM

A crossover to the UK politics thread

"In a social media post, Mr Trump wrote: "Congratulations to Nigel Farage on his big WIN of a Parliament Seat Amid Reform UK Election Success.

"Nigel is a man who truly loves his Country.""

Birds of a feather eh?

I suspect Putin will have done the same.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 02:39 AM

But my question remains. Would a Democrat voter vote for a Republican candidate and vice versa?

Well Rain Dog (cool screen name BTW) I can only speak for myself in that regard. When I was 15 I got the chance to tour Europe with the School Band of America as a last-minute replacement, but it hinged on being able to get a passport in a hurry. My parents contacted our congressman and 2 days later a government car pulled up in front of my house with my passport. Six years later when I voted for the first time he happened to be on the ballot and I felt like I owed him one. That's the only time in my life I ever voted for a Republican. It isn't personal, it's just that in order to be a Republican candidate you must support policy that I find detrimental to us as citizens. And that becomes increasingly true with every new bunch. The last decent president from that party was probably Eisenhower, but had I been around then I still would have been "Madly for Adlai".

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 11:41 AM

That's a good point. Our House and Senate members have offices in the state and are supposed to be there to support their state - all constituents - during their time in office. I have called our GOP Senators to register my opinion on how they should vote and gotten snotty answers from whoever answered - so I'm not bothering to call them any more. I have emailed and faxed messages.

The House members have fewer people to serve, but at a more granular level. I was able to contact my House member last year when a federal agency was taking its sweet time processing my share of a retirement pension - after filing the secure form they forwarded it to the agency - I literally had the money later that day. That said, this is what all representatives are supposed to be doing, cutting red tape and helping constituents. Though the staff was helpful I won't vote for this guy because he not only is GOP, he brought Marjorie Taylor Greene to town to campaign for him. She's the guttersnipe from Georgia who had her assignments stripped in her first term after she supported the January 6 events. Darned if her district didn't send her back to do more damage.

Trump has started to deny knowledge of the Project 2025, but it's out there in plain sight. A lot of talking heads are making much of it lately to call attention to a huge difference between Trump and Biden (and the corporations and oligarchs behind Trump).

(I will also share a bit of a puzzle here - the GOP participated in the removal of GOP Rep. George Santos. Why not some of the others who are charged with crimes? We must assume that Trump didn't like Santos, but there is more to be learned about that event.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 07 Jul 24 - 08:19 PM

Stilly, I have never heard of Project 2025 but it makes sense of what has been happening behind the scenes. Scary agenda!

I'm still waiting to hear that the Democrats have stopped being antsy and that they will put their full support behind President Biden and let him and everyone around him get on with the job and succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 12:24 PM

Far right kicked out in the UK
Far right kicked out in France
Come on, USA. Give us the hat trick! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 01:01 PM

The far right in france unfortunately have not been kicked out
what follows possibly now, is a period of instabilIty in france.
There is unlikely to be a coaliton between any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 02:29 PM

Yea, fair enough, not kicked out in France but certainly had their claws removed.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 02:35 PM

I'm still waiting to hear that the Democrats have stopped being antsy and that they will put their full support behind President Biden and let him and everyone around him get on with the job and succeed."
unlikely
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/07/in-search-of-a-credible-replacement-for-joe-biden

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 05:16 PM

Joe Biden digs in for another day with a defiant letter, a surprise interview and frustration with 'the elites'

"US President Joe Biden is continuing to put up a determined fight for his political life.

"He's responded to ongoing pressure to step aside for a younger presidential candidate by writing to his colleagues in Congress and phoning into a TV show to insist he's not going anywhere."

....

"The letter

"Biden tweeted out a letter that he has sent to Democrats in Congress. It said he was "not blind" to the "good faith fears and worries" held by voters and members of his party. But, he wrote, he was "firmly committed to staying in this race".

    "'This morning, I sent a letter to my fellow Democrats on Capitol Hill. In it, I shared my thoughts about this moment in our campaign.'

    "'It’s time to come together, move forward as a unified party, and defeat Donald Trump.' pic.twitter.com/ABtAaJrr0n
    — Joe Biden (@JoeBiden) July 8, 2024

"He argued he had a "deep obligation" to the Democratic Party voters who had chosen him as their candidate.

    "'It was their decision to make. Not the press, not the pundits, not the big donors, not any selected group of individuals, no matter how well intentioned. The voters — and the voters alone — decide the nominee of the Democratic Party. How can we stand for democracy in our nation if we ignore it in our own party?'

"Biden said the 'question of how to move forward' had been 'well-aired for over a week', but it was time for it to end."

"'We have 42 days to the Democratic Convention and 119 days to the general election. Any weakening of resolve or lack of clarity about the task ahead only helps Trump and hurts us.'"

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 11:49 PM

Put Joe's perceived frailty and Trump's proven dishonesty aside. These aren't what is going to decide this election, the price of gasoline will. If it's under $3 a gallon on election day, Biden wins. Over $3, Trump wins. So Biden needs to release a significant amount from our oil reserve sometime around mid-October. Republicans will cry foul but the American people will only notice the price going down.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 01:02 AM

The price of gasoline might have an effect but i doubt if it will decide it on its own.,that will reduce inflation, but if he increases the old age pension at the same time or increases social welfare, that should do it.
the loss of tax on gasoline could partly be made up by taxing cigerettes,about 12 percent of USA population smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 10:59 AM

Britain Prepares for Trump’s Return: Major Shifts in Security and Foreign Relations Expected

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 11:14 AM

Until recently it was assumed that the Democratic National Convention would be a modest event, but now it looks like there might be some deal-making. Who knows - and what do you want to bet that the twitterverse voices lobbying against Joe are joined by a chorus of bots from Russia.

It would really be perfect if Donald was sentenced to prison time on July 11, as planned, but the fact that he'll be sentenced in September, much closer to the election, is not going to hurt the Democrats.

There is a bubbling of enthusiasm in the nation that isn't showing up on the polls. Polls are pretty much obsolete and should always be ignored -especially if they seem to show your candidate ahead. The only poll we want to see is the results on election day.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 02:07 PM

Dave, that link just takes you to a headline and very little else - just a couple of sentences ending with ‘here’s the full story’, then….tumbleweed.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 02:15 PM

It works as a sideshow BWM. If you swipe the pic it continues

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 02:28 PM

Aaaaaahh! Got it! Thanks Dave…

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 03:36 PM

I'm sure the bots are out there botting. Unfortunately for them, predicting the outcomes of their guided biases is a tricky art. The safest thing for them to bot for is to render us fearful and uncertain. And there are so many ways to do that. Unfortunately, it is very often that those who sow, reap their own products. They foil themselves often, but that doesn't do the rest of us much good unless we have learned to live and work by principles and recognize others who do the same.

Those who are adept at marketing might be able to save us a little bit. We know that these techniques work, whether or not we are aware of them. So there should be a developing of guidelines, like firemen's lines leading us through the smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 10:07 PM

I have spent most of my life listed as Non-partisan, because in the old days I sometimes voted for a Republican. Eisenhower was one, and I have also voted Republican for local politicians on some occasions, such as Oregon's governor Mark Hatfield and for Senator Bob Packwood- before Packwood was disgraced.

In the 'old' days, the Republican party was a far cry from what it has become. There is no way I would- or will- vote Republican for the foreseeable future. IMO they deserve obliteration.

Stilly, back on June 30 at 7:18 pm, did you misspeak when you suggested that "Hillary" would be the nominee if Biden were to resign?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jul 24 - 10:17 PM

No, I didn't misspeak. But it wasn't intended to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 11:04 AM

Some of you may remember a senatorial race from six years ago, when Beto O'Rourke ran against Senator Ted Cruz. He came closer to unseating that bellicose senator than anyone has in a long time. O'Rourke was a popular two-term congressman from El Paso, and we were sorry to see him leave the House, but he has made a big mark on Texas politics. He still has an effective machine (a PAC called Powered By People) that is this year working to register as many voters as possible. The equally popular congressman Colin Allred, from Dallas, a former professional football player who clearly wore his protective headgear at all times is now running against Cruz. And while Beto works as hard as before to get voters registered, Allred, who was a hero of the House during the Jan. 6 breech of the Capital (he was some of the muscle ready to keep rioters out of the chamber, if need be, and of helping members escape) is running a very close race.

This is an example to illustrate about "down ballot races." Voting, even if you aren't in love with the top candidate, and voting a straight ticket (even if you have to fill in all of the Democratic spaces yourself - it has been mentioned before, possibly elsewhere, that in states like Texas that option was removed from ballots four years ago when Biden won and Democrats in down ballot races beat local GOP candidates who thought they were a shoo-in.)

If Allred can take that seat from Cruz, it helps Democrats keep the Senate. There are a lot of formulas out there about members who are weak in their states, and I don't think people outside Texas consider Cruz vulnerable. This would be a special gift from Texas if we can get rid of that nasty piece of work who has been in a position of power for far too long (and is one of the folks who did a turnabout of opposing Trump to being a solid vocal supporter, even after the insults Trump hurled at him.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 11:37 AM

I have a question about voter registration in the USA.

Once you have registered at your home address how often do you have to confirm the details? Each year?

Here in the UK the government, via local councils, check each year to see if the details are correct for each address. If they are correct there is no need to do anything. We only have to reply if any of the details have changed.

Here in the UK, you can also contact the authorities yourself if you need to be added.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 02:51 PM

There used to be lots of ways to register in Texas, for example when you renew your driver's license you could check a box to register yourself at the address of record. Mail in applications, walk in at county courthouse locations, and there are sometimes mailings from interested non-partisan groups that include the forms. I don't know if any of those are still allowed. The trouble these days is that the GOP is trying to remove registered voters by purging the rolls if people haven't voted recently or they suspect someone isn't eligible (for whatever cooked-up reason.) Then you have to be sure to get yourself added back in. So yes, checking to be sure you're still registered is important.

It varies from state to state, the more liberal locations make it as easy to register, and also to vote. Mail in, for the big one. During COVID lots of places had drive-through voting and in Texas the Secy of State fought that (because it was done in the Democratic region of Harris County, where Houston is situated).

I can check online to be sure that my mail in ballot was accepted (you put the ballot inside a larger envelope on which your voter ID and signature are there for confirmation that you are voting in your own name.) If it is rejected for some reason you can go to the polling place on election day and vote. But you have to know that it was rejected in order to do that.

Some places have same-day registration, so if you're new in town you register and vote at the same place. Not here. In Texas you have to have registered 30 days or more before the election.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 11:48 PM

where does the real power lie? The aramaments industry?The corporations?
does it matter that Biden has senior moments occasionnally

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 01:55 AM

my impression is that some voters feel unreprsented and see Trump as anti establishment[ which he is not]

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 02:31 AM

Thanks for the info, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 02:40 AM

here are some donors to Trumps campaign
TIMOTHY MELLON
Timothy Mellon, an 81-year-old heir of the Pittsburgh-based Mellon banking family, has given the pro-Trump super PAC known as MAGA Inc at least $16.5 million since 2022. He also gave at least $20 million to a pro-Trump super PAC called America First Action Inc during the 2020 presidential election.
ISAAC AND LAURA PERLMUTTER
Isaac "Ike" Perlmutter, the former chairman of Marvel Entertainment, and his wife Laura Perlmutter have donated more than $10 million in this election cycle to a new pro-Trump fundraising super PAC called Right for America. Perlmutter has been a regular at Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence in Florida and has been a longtime contributor to Trump's campaigns. The Perlmutters gave at least $21 million to America First Action Inc in 2020.
PATRICIA DUGGAN
Patricia Duggan, a major donor to the Church of Scientology, has given MAGA Inc more than $5 million this election cycle.
Her ex-husband Robert Duggan is an investor and entrepreneur whose fortunes were boosted by the 2015 sale of cancer drug maker Pharmacyclics to AbbVie (ABBV.N)
, opens new tab for $21 billion. Forbes puts his net worth at about $3.3 billion, opens new tab.
ROBERT BIGELOW
Nevada budget hotel tycoon Robert Bigelow, 79, has given MAGA Inc over $9 million in this cycle. Bigelow told Reuters in January he had pledged to give the pro-Trump group a total of $20 million.
Bigelow, who has a fascination with UFOs and space and funds various research efforts, has dined with Trump at Mar-a-Lago. Bigelow says he donated $1 million for Trump's legal funds.
In 2011, Forbes
, opens new tab estimated Bigelow's real estate holdings were worth around $700 million.
info from Reuters

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 03:31 AM

https://data.usatoday.com/2024-presidential-candidates-top-contributors-as-of-march-2024/?ref=kennedy

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 24 - 03:43 AM

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/11/bidens-candidacy-in-crisis-as-clooney-us-senator-call-on-him-to-quit

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jul 24 - 11:06 AM

Enough hand-wringing, Dick! The candidate selection process is usually more orderly with primaries, but I think after people see the mess that is the GOP next week at their convention it will all settle down behind Biden and things will move forward. For those who aren't in love with Biden as they candidate, they will still vote against Trump. The down ballot candidates are the ones making the most fuss right now, but again, Democrats know that it isn't just the president, it is the house and senate, and where they are elected, judges, who will make a difference against this insane Project 2025 manifesto the Heritage Foundation has cooked up (with all sorts of past Trump administration officials). Trump can't get away with pretending he doesn't know what it is, or that it wouldn't go into effect were he elected. As great as HE thinks he is, all of those puppet masters around him really know who would be pulling the strings.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 24 - 11:22 AM

All supposition.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jul 24 - 11:36 AM

So is your content, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 04:57 AM

I keep wondering why various actors are putting forward their opinions on President Biden and not leaving the political strategy decisions to the experts.

I also think that the high profile people expressing their opinions about Joe Biden choosing to stay in the race are putting the country at risk because, in my opinion, if President Biden backs out of the race now the chances of someone else gaining enough traction at this late stage is fairly slim. I think Trump is gaining traction through the to-and-fro discussions. That's just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 06:40 AM

Their presumed degree of influence on the public is what's disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 06:50 AM

I agree, Lighter. It makes me wonder whether the actors are conflating their real world understanding with the fictional character roles they have played on screen.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 07:02 AM

They have an opinion just like those of us who also have an opinion.
Unlike some of us who post on this thread, they probably also have a vote and a genuine worry about the forthcoming election.

I remember a lot of the coverage of Reagan's campaign and his time in office. It did not stop him from being elected.

No doubt there is a difference of opinion amongst the 'experts' involved in decisions within the Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 02:18 PM

98...

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 02:23 PM

99…Aa-a-a-and……..

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 02:44 PM

Ok, I confess Rain Dog. I don't have a vote, but I do have genuine worries about Trump being re-elected because of the Australia-US alliance on various issues. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 03:18 PM

NPR has done their own poll which shows Biden has slipped very little since against TRMP since the debate. Partly because the American common people are not asdumbasallthat and there are many official Democrats who are cowards, which Biden is not.

There is a real risk in that though the poll MAY be accurate, it does not address the issue of the flippable states. And I don't think we can change the Constitution to eliminate the Electoral College in time for the upcoming election. I'll just spend some time finding a way to blame our system on the Victorians.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 04:47 PM

People who worked with Donald Trump on the man who wants to be president again

Some differing viewpoints on Trump:

Anthony Scaramucci
Miles Taylor [I like his one-liner - "'He's just a f***ing idiot,' he says."]
John Bolton
Gordon Sondland [supports Trump]
Chad Wolf [supports Trump]
Peter Strzok

Peter Strzok "was a senior official in the FBI's Counterintelligence Division who led the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election won by Trump. He was forced to resign when private texts that denigrated Trump were made public."

He refers to Project 2025:

"Should he win back the presidency, Trump has vowed to pursue 'retribution' for himself and the Americans who feel they've been left behind by wokeism and liberal politics.

"But the plan for his second coming isn't all talk; he's supported by a coalition of conservative groups with a plan for power known as Project 2025, and has made dismantling institutions in Washington that he feels have wronged him, such as the Department of Justice, a top priority.

"That sends a chill up the spine of Peter Strzok."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 07:47 PM

Donald Trump rushed off stage, audience member dead after shots fired at rally in Pennsylvania

"Donald Trump has been rushed off stage with blood on his face and at least two people, including a suspected gunman, have been killed at a political rally in the United States."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 08:50 PM

And so the Presidential Campaign shifts into a new gear.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 09:05 PM

I keep the news off much of the day lately, it's too depressing. This was a surprise, to learn of what happened at this rally.

This is not how American elections are decided. "It's sick," says Biden in remarks.

The last thing we need is Trump turned into a martyr. (Now I'll put money on just how fast Trump manages to blame Biden for this assault.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Jul 24 - 11:17 PM

There are so many ways this could play out now. Trump being seen as a martyr is one of those ways with the worst consequences, I think. It could turn some of the swinging voters' choices towards him.

Being in the line of fire at an open air rally might discourage his supporters from attending, but might not change their voting choices. Or, Trump might be too scared to stand out in the open again and be a potential target for the next possible attempt.

One thing I would like to see is that his supporters might suddenly have a revelation regarding the Capitol riot. It's more up close and personal now that they themselves have been in the firing line.

Democrats can use the opportunity to show how much more humane they are towards Trump than Trump is towards them. Democrats can decry the use of violence for political reasons. President Biden has already contacted Trump to check on his welfare and we know Trump would not have done that if the tables were turned. He would have used the incident as political ammunition to attack Biden.

Wait and see what happens. That's all we can do.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 03:01 AM

Trump’s supporters are already blaming Biden for ‘inciting’ this assassination attempt, according to BBC News. They are reporting a very dark change in American politics.

The only thing that surprises me about this incident is that it seems to have come as a surprise. I’ve been expecting it ever since Trump announced his intention to run for 47. He speaks the language of a violent man, and violence begets violence.

I’m of the mind that this is very likely a blessing in disguise for the Republicans’ campaign, that it may well encourage a ‘sympathy-vote’ from those currently undecided, and I’m even more convinced now that Trump will be elected in November. I’m praying that I’m wrong but…

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0359j43d78o

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 03:41 AM

Sadly, given Trump's track record, the first thing that sprang to my mind was that it was orchestrated.

I fear you are right though BWM :-(

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 04:05 AM

Here’s The i’s take on the Trump assassination attempt.

The i is my preferred choice of newspaper due to its non-affiliation to any political party.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 04:34 AM

orchestrated
even if not the GOP will play that card. But there are other potential "orchestrators" ............ how paranoiac should we be?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 07:33 AM

We're screwed.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 08:48 AM

No one can **orchestrate** something like that! One idiot decides to be a hero and immediately there are conspiracy theories abounding.... some serious and some just to stir the pot.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: meself
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 10:30 AM

Yup - let the Conspiracy Theory Olympics begin!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 10:32 AM

"Orchestrated" would have been a single shot, wide by a couple of feet or so, that hit some stage equipment. A spray of bullets that hits the intended target in the ear and goes on to kill and injure others, was a serious attempt at assassination.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 11:38 AM

I know all that Bill and Doug and I abhor these stupid conspiracy theories. The sad thing is that with Trump, nothing surprises us any more. Just you watch what mileage he will get out of his maga minions selling the story that it was a deep state plot by Biden

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 02:57 PM

"minions"
Despicable He ??

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 03:49 PM

It'll be interesting to get TRMP in the interview room and ask him about his left ear and the Second Amendment:

There is a lyric going through my tiny mind from Dan Bern:

"Commandment 3 says do not kill
Amendment 2 says blood will spill
God sits in his rocking chair
Two flat tires and one good spare"

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 04:08 PM

This is an article by[ABC Oz's] global affairs editor John Lyons. In my opinion, he is always worth following because he is highly knowledgeable and analytical.

The Trump assassination attempt drives a line through the fabric of US democracy — fabric which was already frayed

"A bitterly divided United States has just become dangerously divided.

"This is a time for anyone with influence in the US to exercise their power to calm a shaken nation — rather than to stoke divisions and fears.

"The assassination attempt on Donald Trump has driven a new and extremely disturbing fault line straight through the fabric of American democracy — a fabric which was already fraying.

"The fragility of American stability and democracy is demonstrated by contemplating that had the shooter in Pennsylvania succeeded in killing Trump, would it have unleashed civil unrest in the US?

"Had one bullet been a few centimetres closer to Trump's brain — rather than grazed his ear — it could have changed US history and may have sent the US into a spiral of chaos and possibly violence in the streets."

"Stress on an already strained democracy

"American democracy and good governance was already under pressure.

"Joe Biden — a frail, incumbent president who struggles to get through a one hour news conference without misspeaking the name of a world leader or his own vice president — was fighting in the polls beside Trump, a convicted felon who has promised the powerful gun lobby, the National Rifle Association, that should he win in November he will not curtail the easy access Americans have to guns. This is surely an uncomfortable irony, given Trump was almost killed by a gun."

....

"Shortly after the shooting presidential historian Tim Naftali said the US was now in "a fragile moment" and that this was a time for careful words by opinion makers and influencers.

"He told CNN this was a time for those who shaped opinion to "dial down" rhetoric and not a time for "poison and hatred".

"'This is a time to stop hating each other', he said.

"And those whose views fit the extremes of US politics need to realise that this is deadly serious. Trump may have escaped the attempt on his life but bullets can kill, and did take the life of one man who attended the rally in Pennsylvania. The shooter was also killed.

"And in a country awash with guns, words can foment hatred, encouraging unhinged people to take to violence."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 05:22 PM

Sow thee wind, reap the whirlwind.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 06:07 PM

Helen, I thought Mr. Biden's remarks about "Donald" were heart-felt and fitting. I saw as much of his presser as CNN would broadcast, and the incumbent seemed not to stumble to respond to the media's questions at all.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 06:19 PM

Charmion's brother Andrew, I'm hoping that this shows President Biden in his true light, and that the people trying to push him aside will let him get on with the job and hopefully succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jul 24 - 10:22 PM

"Joe Biden — a frail, incumbent president who struggles to get through a one hour news conference without misspeaking the name of a world leader or his own vice president — was fighting in the polls beside Trump, a convicted felon . . ."

That isn't accurate about Biden; he did just fine at the press conference, no more than the usual slips that have been in his public speaking over the past 50 years or so.

We don't know what would have happened if the shooter had succeeded, but while the suggestion that US democracy is under pressure is reasonable, the general characterisation of that piece is a dystopian rant.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 01:45 AM

Stilly, I didn't agree with that particular sentence in the article. I think he was representing the opposing views of both Biden and Trump, but not necessarily his own personal views.

I have watched and read many of John Lyons' segments and he seems to have a military mind when it comes to analysing strategy. I think he was analysing political strategy in that article so maybe if you re-read it from that viewpoint it might be a little less confronting. Perhaps.

I didn't post all of the article here and I wasn't trying to upset anyone. Sorry if I did. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 08:17 AM

The trouble with failed assassination attempts is that they elevate evil stains on the fabric of humanity to hero status. I would not be surprised if that despicable gobs**te will exploit this for every vote it can get. US news should be reminding voters every day how trump incited a revolt that led to the deaths of Brian Sicknick, Kyle DeFreytag, Howard Liebengood, Gunther Hashida, not to mention those who suffered life changing injuries. If that is the kind of lowlife US wants to elect as its president then it will surely be effectively handing in its resignation as being considered a civilised country.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 11:55 AM

That article read like word salad, so it didn't get a deep reading from me.

Agreed, SPB-Cooperator. We need to continue to highlight Trump's bad acts—indeed, what's past is prologue.

Heather Cox Richardson's post from July 14 reminds us of all sorts of GOP threats of violence against the American public (and Trump's threats against individuals - to rough up people, etc.)

Edward Luce of the Financial Times noted, “Almost any criticism of Trump is already being spun by Maga as an incitement to assassinate him. This is an Orwellian attempt to silence what remains of the effort to stop him from regaining power.” Indeed, MAGA Republicans appear to be trying to stop discussion of their extremist plans— which are enormously unpopular— by claiming that such a discussion is polarizing.

The idea that Democratic opposition to authoritarian plans like those outlined in Project 2025 caused violence might convince MAGA Republicans, but it will likely be a hard sell for Americans who remember things like:

•Trump’s own suggestion in 2016 that “Second Amendment people” could solve the problem of Hillary Clinton picking judges; or his 2020 attacks on Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer, who became the target of a kidnapping plot; or election workers bombarded with death threats as Trump lied that the 2020 election was stolen;

etc.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 01:20 PM

Anyone still think he has no chance of winning?

Heaven help us all...

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 01:24 PM

It is exactly the same as before.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 02:03 PM

It doesn't look that way to us outside the US Stilly but if you still think he has no chance, thanks for that glimmer of hope anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 03:41 PM

Slip-ups like Joe Biden's misnaming of Trump and Harris are common, and usually caused by lack of sleep or stress, experts say

"In short: US President Joe Biden has been criticised after accidentally referring to his vice-president, Kamala Harris, as 'vice-president Trump'.

"Neuroscientists say it is very common to accidentally misname someone or something.

"The brain groups names which are related or sound similar and can draw on the wrong one under stress or when lacking sleep."

....

"Could misnaming be an early sign of cognitive decline?

"Neuroscientist Damian Holsinger from the University of Sydney specialises in Alzheimer's disease and said it would be unfair to assume Mr Biden is in a state of cognitive decline based only on naming slip-ups.

"'There is no correlation,' he said.

"'This is probably aged-related memory decline, not dementia.'"

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 04:55 PM

Everyone does that misnaming - how often did you call out the names of each child and possibly the dog before you got to the name you meant to call?

Trump has selected a running mate that will require the least amount of design change in their campaign banners: remove "Pence" add "Va".

This week will be a flurry of information about Trump and the GOP. The Democratic party usually lays low and lets it happen. There are lots of early clips of Vance talking about how awful Trump is (back in the 2016 election era) that will make the rounds.

Next week the hard work starts. Getting people registered and motivated to go vote. I live in a deeply Republican state, but in urban areas, the GOP doesn't have quite as much clout. Biden got the most votes in my county, which was a few years ago named the most Republican county in the country.

If you can't say anything helpful, consider sitting on your hands. Borrowing trouble does no one any good.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jul 24 - 10:46 PM

That article is saying the misnaming is not a sign of cognitive decline, so basically Biden is still capable until proven otherwise. The article was a finding in Biden's favour and a justification for not jumping to conclusions about his cognitive state based on something we all do.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 04:24 AM

The dude who tried to pot Trump is a registered Republican. Isn't it time we addressed this Republican on Republican violence?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 04:33 AM

Any comments on Vance? Some of his comments look like he is worse than Trump but what do us Brits know..?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 05:21 AM

Getting acquainted with Mr. Vance (quote):
------`
Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.
I can’t stomach Trump.
I think that he’s noxious and is leading the white working class to a very dark place.”
I think there’s a chance, if I feel like Trump has a really good chance of winning, that I might have to hold my nose and vote for Hillary Clinton.”
was a “moral
“total fraud”
serial sexual assault,”
one of USA’s most hated, villainous, douchey celebs,”
Vance deleted past anti-Trump tweets ahead of his announcement in July 2021 that he would run for the open Ohio Senate seat.

But that was then, just another MAGGY checking to see how the wind blows. This is now.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 06:28 AM

I was just about to make a similar post Ebbie. For those of us in the UK it certainly puts in to perspective Starmer's change of view on Corbyn.(Or maybe that should be Starmer's change of publicly declared view.)

Last night on the BBC TV programme Newsnight, one of the guests made a comment along the lines of 'division is America's default position'. That prompted me to do some searching and i found the following from The Conversation July 2016

Can America’s deep political divide be traced back to 1832?

This quote could have been made yesterday;

“We hold it a principle,” the Jacksonian newspaper the Albany Argus declared on February 17, 1824, “that every man should sacrifice his own private opinions and feelings to the good of his party and the man who will not do it is unworthy to be supported by a party, for any post of honor or profit.”

So Vance has changed his mind or has he? Perhaps he has just decided to ride this particular tiger in order to further his career.

PS

i made a post yesterday to the BS: BBC Radio 4 programming thread about a BBC Radio programme about the Principal Recovery Network.
The presenter is a British woman who moved with her family to Arizona.
At one point she asked why the PRN did not campaign for gun control. The person replied that if they did, it would cut them off from half of the people they want to help. Those people might well dismiss them as a liberal front organisation.

I found that comment very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 08:20 AM

Trump has not changed at all

Is that any help?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 08:44 AM

Vance's reaction to Tr*mp is reminding me of one wise chap's memorable summary of Machiavelli's The Prince:

An effective ruler should be either loved or feared. Fear has it every time: you get your weekends free.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 11:39 AM

Prior to joining the US Senate two years ago Vance had no political experience. Prior to election he was known as an author.

Obama had a brief time in the Senate, but he had served in state legislature and a lot of political action community organizing positions, along with teaching law. If people start to compare Vance with Obama, make the point that Obama has always been politically active and engaged.

I'm reading Jen Psaki's book Say More: Lessons from Work, the White House, and the World. Chapter 10 opens with

REPORTER: A lot of Americans are saying that, you know, the surges are happening under President Biden's watch after he reversed some previous policy. So does the administration take any accountability for what's happening?

ME: Who are the Americans?

REPORTER: Well, I know you don't want to answer to him, but the former president just released a statement saying that "the Biden administration must act immediately to end the border nightmare that they have unleashed onto our nation."

ME: Former president Trump?

REPORTER: Yes.

ME: We don't take our advice or counsel from former president Trump on immigration policy, which was not only inhumane but ineffective over the last four years. We're going to chart our own path forward, and that includes treating children with humanity and respect, and ensuring they're safe when they cross our borders.

From there, she notes (the reason for that quote):

One of Donald Trump's favorite media strategies is to refer to non-specified "people" who just happen to be "saying" exactly the same thing he's been saying. If you don't hear the sarcasm in there about how I feel about this tactic, read again.
Part of the issue is of course that Trump has a relationship with the truth that is generously described as tenuous. He loves to quote straw men, nameless groups of made-up "people," because he knows those arguments can be effective. . .

The thing with any attribution made by Trump or his mouthpieces is to ask WHO they are speaking about. Ask for sources. Mostly it will be whole cloth, out of Trump's imagination. His only source is himself, and his lack of interest in studying any issue deeply needs to be highlighted.

This is a tip for man-on-the-street conversations, but also a reminder that when you cite articles you've read, keep track of where your sources are, so you can show your work, as it were, in one of those conversations if need be.

Ashley Judd recently posted a video of a family conversation with her step-father; they are politically polar opposites, but are determined that the politics won't get in the way of their family love. Having conversations with friends who support the other guy - keep it civil, and know your sources. I have neighbors on each side of me who support Trump, but we have managed to stay friends. Partly by not discussing politics, or by sticking to the issues that we agree on. By keeping it civil I have a better chance of changing their minds. :)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 11:39 AM

The ignorance is appalling.

From The Guardian

"Vance was speaking at the National Conservatism conference last week, where he said: “I have to beat up on the UK – just one additional thing. I was talking with a friend recently and we were talking about, you know, one of the big dangers in the world, of course, is nuclear proliferation, though, of course, the Biden administration doesn’t care about it."

“And I was talking about, you know, what is the first truly Islamist country that will get a nuclear weapon, and we were like, maybe it’s Iran, you know, maybe Pakistan already kind of counts, and then we sort of finally decided maybe it’s actually the UK, since Labour just took over.”

And

"England has been one of the few exceptions where it has fielded a very capable military over the last generation.”

Lammy needs to find some new friends.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 01:30 PM

I think the next Islamic country to have the bomb will be Britain.

But seriously,

The election is still uncertain. There's no lock. We've got an incompetent liar for Republican Vice President now, in addition to the incompetent liar (but lucky reflexes) we've got top of that ticket. I'll take Kamala over either or both. And Joe is a hero to me. We all know he's too old, but we need his sanity (and Supreme Court picks).

Gotta say it clear: I was very concerned that we get through Obama's two terms without an attempt on his life. I already knew that Trump was even more hated than Obama and was glad we got through with him in good shape. This latest occurrence is mainly disturbing because it appears the shooter was allowed to get on a high view site he should not have. It should have been covered. Anyhow, I have no love for TRMP. But no hatred, either. We survived him once, it could happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 04:32 PM

The MSNBC talking heads today have been discussing the Project 2025 Heritage Foundation plan for the future and its relation to J.D. Vance - he is apparently their hand-picked candidate and Trump accepted him.

Meanwhile, the Washington Post has revealed that Vance's wife is an attorney who clerked for both John Roberts (chief justice) and Brett Kavanaugh of the supreme court (when she worked for Kavanaugh he was in the U.S. Court of Appeals in D.C.) Usha Vance, wife of Trump’s VP pick J.D. Vance, is a lawyer and Yale graduate. She was a Democrat back in 2014, but is now registered Republican and is quiet about politics. Sounds like she's in a difficult position politically.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 02:02 AM

Another question about US politics.

"She was a Democrat back in 2014, but is now registered Republican"

I am guessing that this refers to those states (31 according to wiki) that allow people to mark their party affiliation, or their unaffiliated status, on their voter registration form? It is not an indication that they are a member of the Republican or Democrat parties?

Are the voter registration lists available to the general public to peruse?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 11:12 AM

I don't know that voter registration lists are available to the public, but there are certainly lots of organizations who try to challenge them (hoping to knock out voters who will have a harder time renewing their registrations and who may have voted against the party the organization represents.) Nasty business.

You can see who people donate to, assuming normal donations, because you have to give some background (are you employed, where, what party are you registered in, and in that instance it may show when you last voted.) PACs and huge money donors live in an entirely different world.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 01:06 PM

I see that Obama has now weighed in against Biden. How does this affect things and who will step in if he does stand down?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 01:37 PM

Apart from any debate as to whether Biden show evidence of Alzheimer's or not, there has also been a lot of of discussion as to whether he might have Parkinson's Disease. His own Dr and neurologist deny this, though it has been questioned by a number of other eminent neurologists.
(Just Google Biden + Parkinson's and you'll find plenty of reports).
It is also the impressions that I (retired medic)get: you don't necessarily have to have the tremor as part of Parkinson's Disease: in some people it manifests more as the mask-like facies, paucity/rigidity of movement, quiet voice, proneness to trips and falls. If he should stay on and get re-elected, it's doubtful how well he would manage another 4 years if he does indeed have it.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 01:41 PM

Oddly enough in an interview I just heard he did say that one of the factors that may cause him to stand down would be the diagnosis of a serious medical condition.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 02:56 PM

Biden was diagnosed with COVID yesterday and has already started Paxlovid. He is isolating at the family home in Delaware.

We are hearing of remarks shared from Obama, and that seems to be the one person that will carry the most weight.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 09:55 AM

He will be replaced according to the book makers

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 06:20 PM

He will not "be replaced." He will choose to continue to run or to step down, no one is doing any replacing.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 10:50 PM

To understand some of the background in this whole "the rich donors want to change the candidate" debate, list to AOC - Alexdria Ocasio-Cortez. She gave a lot of background in an Instagram talk that you may find helpful. https://www.instagram.com/p/C9l41vgOAGj/.

The thing is, if any of the party machinations should become issues that go to court, there is a potential that the Trump Supreme Court could get a chance to weigh in and trash the party. Stick with the one that brung you, and move forward. Biden has the electoral votes. Changing any of this now risks court cases and if you think it's ugly now, just wait consider what would happen (and all of the Trump and Putin interference included) to the party right before the election.

Leave well-enough alone and move forward. That's the only sure way to keep Trump out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 11:07 PM

Yes, it's too late to change horses in midstream.

I expect that Biden will start making some very strong statements about Trump and his (make believe) policies and about the 2025 Project. And I'm hoping he will also build up awareness and confidence in the outcomes he has already achieved as President, and the outcomes he hopes to achieve, e.g. righting the wrongs done by Trump, including women's right to choose their own health and well-being strategies in conjunction with medical professionals.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 02:04 AM

He will not "be replaced." He will choose to continue to run or to step down, no one is doing any replacin QUOTE
your comment is an example of quibbling
HE will not win the presidential race because he wont be there ,because he is in too poor health.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 02:57 AM

Lockheed Martin[armaments]donated to both candidates, but twice as much to Trump

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 10:44 AM

Dick, I don't know where you're getting your information - perhaps some of those elite Democratic donors? The rest of us, the mainstream voters, understand that Biden is older but he's doing fine. Way better than asshat Trump. You keep making pronouncements without evidence and I will dismiss them without having to dig out any, except of course that I live here and pay attention to this stuff. Hitchens Razor.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 10:49 AM

SRS it's not often that I defend Dick but the media we receive on this side of the pond is very much suggesting that Biden is being asked to step aside by many in his own party.

For example:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/20/biden-resists-democratic-calls-step-down

We are being fed such articles on a daily basis.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 10:55 AM

He's not being asked by the voters. He's being asked by some of the big donors (who also have a megaphone), and that isn't all of the big donors. And if you think it's a simple matter of switching names on the ballot, you need to go listen to AOC's précis of what is happening in those smoke filled rooms. THE LAST THING WE NEED IS THE COURTS INVOLVED IN WHO IS THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE. Right now the DNC is in control. You want to see the Supreme Court wade in? Then, like I said, sit on your hands, be patient, and let us work on this.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 11:04 AM

At risk of this being snipped, I can't help but think: Is this what they mean by Replacement Theory :-) ?

Runs and hides

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 11:43 AM

I enjoy and admire the political and social commentary of a bearded person on YouTube who calls himself "Beau of the Fifth Column". My brother Andrew calls him the Sage of Rural Florida.

Here's his channel: Beau of the Fifth Column

And here's what he has to say about replacing Biden: The Roads to Replacing Biden

Beau often tells his listeners to cool their jets and wait for the media chatter to die down, all the while paying close attention to what people actually do. He also recommends reading widely across the spectrum of opinion. He seems to be politically non-partisan, being interested primarily in parties' and candidates' efforts to support people who are doing less than well in life.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 12:07 PM

, and let us work on this quote
you are not involved, are you?,

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 02:01 PM

Dick, in a previous post I recall Stilly saying she is involved in encouraging local Democrat-leaning voters to vote in the election.

Give it a rest please. Let the US voters get on with the job and stop quibbling over bits and pieces of posts which are nothing (in my opinion) compared with the important work of ridding the US and the world of a dangerous autocrat.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 03:26 PM

Helen. Doing anything on an obscure folk music forum will do sweet FA. Cheerleading from the sidelines in Australia will do sweet FA. Telling people to sit on their hands and do nothing is worse than sweet FA. It is dangerous.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

I shall speak out against anything I perceive as wrong whether or not my friends agree. And saying nothing about the traction that Trump is gaining with Biden's seeming frailty is simply wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 05:15 PM

In October of 1919 President Woodrow Wilson suffered a debilitating stroke. His wife Edith and his inner circle hid the extent of his disability and Edith basically ran the country for the next year and a half and no one knew because she put forward his policies. The point is that it doesn't matter if the president succumbs completely to dementia, we still need to vote for him. His policies and agendas will be forwarded by those around. The real disaster would be another term for Trump. A disaster for seniors and the infirm (Project 2025 specifically calls for defunding Medicaid and Medicare). A disaster for the environment (Trump has already vowed to end most regulations on pollution and investment in alternative energy. A disaster for women especially if the GOP also takes the Senate. There will most certainly be a federal ban on abortion. A disaster for workers. Even as Vance

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 05:28 PM

Don't know how I got cut off but let me continue. Even as Vance is telling the convention how they were going to defend the working class against the elites, Trump is meeting with said elites promising another corporate tax cut. A disaster for children as they continue the onslaught against the public school system. Against the true teaching of history and science. A disaster for minorities, immigrants, allies, our constitution. The Dems could elect a farm animal or piece of cheap furniture and it would be a better alternative than Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 05:36 PM

Dave, what, except complain, do YOU intend to do from the UK? I don't think you can legally donate to campaigns here. You can't vote. So you folks who are nagging are nagging the choir. What is FA? Fuckall? Then just say it.

Those of us who can are working on these things, choosing the avenue that works best. I am participating with a Texas-based group that is working to register voters here in Texas. Donations to non-partisan groups that support voting rights, select politicians, and a group that does excellent videos explaining how politics work (or should work) headed by Professor Robert Reich, former Labor Secretary under Bill Clinton (the group is Inequality Media Civic Action, out of Berkeley, CA, and you might be able to donate to them.)

We don't give a rat's ass what bookies in the UK OR IRELAND think, and we don't need to hear about it repeatedly.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 06:35 PM

Thanks Neil D, for your summary of the key issues at stake.

And thanks Stilly, for working towards encouraging more people to vote in the election.

Two of the main worries I have (from my perspective as an interested outsider in a country allied to the US) are:

that the persistent badgering of President Biden to back down from his election campaign could undermine the chances of Democrat success especially in the absence of a likely alternative candidate at this late stage in the campaign;

and that it may also discourage voters who are told repeatedly that Trump will win regardless of how they vote or even whether they vote.

Endlessly repeated prophecies of doom can generate a sense of hopelessness which can discourage proactive action, and it is made worse when the prophecies of doom are not necessarily based in solid facts and are instead based on opinion and fear, or selective media coverage, or maybe even a secret sense of glee at others' misfortune.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:56 AM

BBC Radio 4 had a programme yesterday in their profile series, on J D Vance. (NPR were also mentioned)

Profile - J D Vance

From ‘hillbilly’ roots to becoming Donald Trump’s nominee for vice-president. At 39, if JD Vance is elected, he would be one of America’s youngest ever Vice-Presidents. A lot has been laid bare in his own words, in ‘Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis’. He talks about being raised by his grandparents who moved from the Appalachian Mountains area of Kentucky to Ohio, to a Middle America Rust Belt town looking for a better life. His mother struggled with drug addiction and a string of chaotic relationships. So how did he go from a sometimes unstable, sometimes violent, upbringing to being in the running to take one of the highest offices in American politics? There’s another transformation many wonder about too: why did he change his mind on Trump? Only in 2016 JD Vance said ‘I can't stomach Trump. I think that he's noxious and is leading the white working class to a very dark place.’ Mark Coles finds out.

Credit: NPR Fresh Air

Presenter: Mark Coles
Producers: Phoebe Keane, Diane Richardson
Editor: Penny Murphy


++

An interesting choice of candidate. I do have my doubts that they really get on. Probably both think they are taking advantage of the other in their pursuit of ???

Ride that tiger. Ride that tiger.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 04:03 AM

I see from an article in The Guardian that hard questions will be asked of all those responsible for security at the Trump rally.

Gunman at Trump rally flew drone over fairgrounds earlier on day of shootings

They mention the following:

"New information about Crooks’ intensive planning for the attack has also been gleaned from 14,000 browser history links in his phone. While he did not leave an ideological manifesto common to many mass-shooting perpetrators, FBI investigators have disclosed that online searches linked in his phone showed that he’d researched school shootings. He reportedly searched Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley and had a mugshot of him on his phone.

Crooks also performed internet searches on next month’s Democratic convention and Joe Biden, depressive disorder and explosive materials and chemical compounds. Crooks brought a pair of homemade bombs to the rally designed to be set off with a remote fireworks igniter, as well as a bulletproof vest and three 30-round magazines later found in his Hyundai Sonata."

I know that the investigation is still ongoing but are the police obliged to update the media as the investigation continues?

Another story today

US Secret Service rejected previous Trump team requests for more resources – reports

I guess more will come to light when Kimberly Cheatle testifies before the US House of Representatives oversight committee on Monday. Then we will have to wait until the investigation is completed, published and then the various spins applied.

I hope security is improved for the remainder of the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 04:21 AM

I just watched PBS Washington Week With The Atlantic. One of the members of the panel discussed the difficulty of finding a candidate to run instead of Biden, if he drops out, and especially given that the timing is very tight for a November election campaign. I think it was the same panel member who also mentioned the lack of success when Hillary Clinton ran instead of Barack Obama, although we know that the tricks played by Trump and the election interference made it more difficult for her to succeed.

Another panel member made the point that the Democrats can operate like a proper political party in discussions and decisions, even while weighing up the pros and cons of Biden continuing his campaign, unlike the Republicans who are "all over the shop" [that's my terminology], random and out of control.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 05:06 AM

"Endlessly repeated prophecies of doom can generate a sense of hopelessness"

While sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "everything's coming up roses" while others despair at what the US electorate have to put up with is very helpful?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 06:42 AM

So how much do you charge for your precognitive readings? And do you use a crystal ball, tea leaves, tarot cards, psychometry, communing with the spirits?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 07:10 AM

BBC News just now, reporting that Trump has claimed, in a speech, that he ‘took a bullet for democracy’. You really couldn’t make it up, could you?

Unfortunately, there are likely to be a large number of Americans who will fall for it, exactly the same way they’ve fallen for the rest of his shit. Let’s pray they are outnumbered by Americans with intelligence and a well-developed sense of right and wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 11:12 AM

Give it a break, Dave. No one is saying everything is coming up roses, but since I LIVE HERE I have a better sense of just how pissed off American women are that the GOP and the Supreme Court are taking away our rights. Pete and repeat on the remarks about doom and gloom. Trump doesn't know what is going to hit him in November. And apparently your pundits haven't caught a whiff of that anger and frustration.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 11:28 AM

You are giving us a glimmer of hope, Stilly, and I sincerely hope that you are right. But being told to shut up by another member is not my idea of open debate. You are not my only US contact for news BTW and my cousin and his wife, both Democrats and fiercely anti Trump, are already making arrangements to move here after November. They are in Florida though so maybe their view is different to that of the average Texan. Are you sure that you are reflecting the view of the typical American and not just that of your own bubble?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 11:40 AM

...and, Helen, no, I don't use any of those things. I use my eyes and ears on a number of different sources. If you can only come up with sarcastic comments instead if reasoned arguments, your posts are not really worth reading. Tell you what, as soon as you see a post that is from me, ignore it and I will do the same with yours. Deal?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 12:53 PM

Florida and Texas both have toxic governors who transport immigrants who just arrived in the US to northern "liberal cities." They have clamped down on abortion rights to such an extent that pregnant women with complications are nearly dying before they can receive the care they need.

Delayed and denied: Women pushed to death's door for abortion care in post-Roe America

DENTON, Texas, and NEW YORK -- This is Part II of a three-part special ABC News investigation looking at the impact of abortion restrictions in America after the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in June 2022. The "Impact by Nightline" broadcast, "On the Brink," with exclusive interviews by Diane Sawyer and Rachel Scott, brings you inside the raw, intimate and overlooked conversations playing out in clinics and exam rooms as the country continues to confront the realities of a post-Roe America. It premieres Dec. 14 on Hulu.

Her baby was going to die. Abortion laws forced her to give birth anyway

Texas Supreme Court rejects challenge to state's abortion ban over exceptions for pregnancy complications

Five women brought the lawsuit in March 2023, saying they were denied abortions even when issues arose during their pregnancies that endangered their lives. The case grew to include 20 women and two doctors.

The plaintiffs had not sought to repeal the ban, but rather to force clarification and transparency as to the precise circumstances in which exceptions are allowed. They also wanted doctors to be allowed more discretion to intervene when medical complications arise in pregnancy.

A woman who sued Texas for access to abortion seeks a procedure out of state instead

Kate Cox, a 31-year-old woman from the Dallas area facing pregnancy complications who had sued the state of Texas for access to an abortion, has left the state to get the procedure, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights.

New Biden ad blames Trump as Texas woman says she nearly died after abortion ban

The Biden campaign released an ad Monday featuring a Texas woman who said she almost died because she was not able to get the abortion she needed following a miscarriage.

Why it matters: The ad places the blame on former President Trump for the state-level bans on abortion, like in Texas, that lawmakers have passed since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022.

Driving the news: The emotional ad features Amanda Zurawski, an Austin woman who says she had a miscarriage after her water broke at 18 weeks.

When you keep posting the same complaints again and again it doesn't allow the conversation to precede. It annoys the participants. You're telling us we're going to be failures in solving this problem. So, like I said before, stop it. We don't need that kind of negativity.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 01:32 PM

I have not complained about anything but being told to shut up! And I have never told anyone that they are going to fail. Look back through my posts and I have only ever said that I hope, wish and pray that you are right but I fear the worst. My fears are real to me but they do not reflect on anyone else's ability.

On a tangent here but I forgot to add before - Did anyone else notice that "Hulk" Hogan appeared at Trumps recent rally? Who remembers the Trump vs McMahon nonsense on WWE? I used to worry that so many people seemed to believe that all this stuff was real. Now it is happening in politics and it now scares me to death!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:33 PM

Meanwhile in Ohio a 10-year-old who was raped and impregnated at age 9 was forced to go out of state for an abortion. This was only 6 days after Dobbs but Ohio had a trigger law in place that outlawed all abortion instantly.
Then the Indiana Board of Medicine investigated the performing Dr and hit her with a bogus patient confidentiality charge and a $3000 fine. I say bogus because, though she had commented on the case, she had never mentioned the patient's name.
In April 2023, the head of Cincinnati Right to Life, Laura Strietmann, commented that the girl should have been forced to give birth, explaining that although "a pregnancy might have been difficult on a 10-year-old body, a woman’s body is designed to carry life," and that abortion rights should not be brought to a public vote.[23] Despite Strietmann's argument, a vote was held in November 2023 which amended the Constitution of Ohio to protect abortion rights.
That election last November was quite interesting in Ohio. We not only legalized abortion but we legalized cannabis as well. And this is a fairly deep red state. I think there were 2 factors at work here: the 2 bills supported each other. People who came out for legal pot also voted for legal abortion and vice versa; also, I think that these 2 issues do not break down as much on party lines as people think. I'm certain that many Republican women voted for the abortion bill and I think most people of each party have come to realize that marijuana laws are obsolete. Ohio wasn't the only red state to vote to protect abortion rights after the Dobbs decision. Kansas is one that comes to mind.
Now as to the comments of Laura Streitmann, I'm not big on hyperbole so I'm not going to say that all Repubs are heartless and inhumane, but her views do reflect those of a substantial percentage of that party.
All the more reason we can't let the GOP get control of our government.
.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:39 PM

Biden has gone?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:41 PM

Let's phrase it in the form of a statement. Biden has issued on on-line announcement that he is departing the race.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:51 PM

At least he lasted longer than Liz Truss...

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 02:56 PM

I must add that I am looking forward to seeing Harris shred Trump at the next debate. It gives me more hope for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 03:02 PM

It's on the Beeb, and on Sky News, here in the UK: Joe Biden's stepped down ("in the best interests of my country"), and nominated Kamala Harris as presidential candidate. Much debate about who will be nominated as Harris's running mate.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 03:42 PM

I am sad..and worried. Perhaps he should also quit and let her at least be POTUS for a few months.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 04:10 PM

From an article which is being updated at present on ABC (Oz) News:

Barack Obama says says the decision is 'a testament to Joe Biden’s love of country'

"'Former president Barack Obama, who Joe Biden served as VP for two terms, has issued a statement paying tribute to his 'dear friend'.

"He says Biden's 'outstanding track record' gave him 'every right to run for re-election and finish the job he started'.

    "'Joe Biden has been one of America's most consequential presidents, as well as a dear friend and partner to me. Today, we’ve also been reminded – again – that he’s a patriot of the highest order. '

    "'I also know Joe has never backed down from a fight. For him to look at the political landscape and decide that he should pass the torch to a new nominee is surely one of the toughest in his life. But I know he wouldn’t make this decision unless he believed it was right for America.'

    "'It's a testament to Joe Biden's love of country — and a historic example of a genuine public servant once again putting the interests of the American people ahead of his own that future generations of leaders will do well to follow.'"

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 06:04 PM

Deposed by thunder! They tipped him the black spot.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 06:48 PM

Yes I agree, Big Al Whittle, but it looked like the badgering was not going to stop and it has been placing the Democrats in a vulnerable position. It is very late in the game to put in a substitute player but there were limited options, and this is the game they really need to win.

My real hope is that Kamala Harris is chosen as the Presidential candidate, because she has inside knowledge of how the President should operate, and because she will appeal to a lot of the women voters who have serious concerns about a possible future second term for Trump, and because the campaign funds allocated to Biden can flow on to Harris. A new, different candidate could not access those funds and would have to start from scratch and, given the limited time until the election, that could be a major obstacle.

I have arrived at these opinions based on a number of reputable, reliable, fact-based news sources e.g. ABC (Australia) News, ABC America, Planet America on ABC (Oz), PBS Washington Week With The Atlantic, PBS News, and other sources.

And as I have said before, in a democratic system where voting is not compulsory, voters need to be motivated to vote based on a reasonable expectation that their vote will make a positive difference, that there is a high level of hope that their chosen candidate will succeed, and that the successful candidate will achieve the desired outcomes while in office.

I still worry that many voters, but especially white, male voters would not vote for a woman to be President, and even some Democrat supporters who are women may not vote for a woman to be President. To achieve that outcome, I thought that President Biden would continue with his campaign, showing the world that he is capable of campaigning, winning and continuing his Presidential achievements and that possibly his health would decline in the next year or so and he would hand over the reins to VP Harris, but that would have depended on him succeeding in gaining a second term.

Wait and see, hope and pray.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 08:00 PM

Helen, I think any white, male voters who wouldn't vote for a woman are already staunchly in the other camp. And I just can't picture any Democrat women who wouldn't vote for a woman. She sure is going to have to come on strong in the 3 1/2 weeks left. I think the next round of polling will show she is starting from behind. For what it's worth she has my full support.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 08:19 PM

I hope you are right, Neil D. I'm fearing the worst regarding a woman as Presidential candidate and hoping for the best.

I have worked in a lot of different workplaces and the general belief tended to be that men were promoted to management, and promoted other men to management, and women had "other skills" like typing, admin, people skills etc. That was despite our best efforts as union reps and union members to generate healthy, productive change. Society is changing, so maybe my past decades of experiences are out of date in this century. I sincerely hope so. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 09:33 PM

If I weren't pretty sure that too many people would not vote for the pair, my vote would go to Kamala Harris and Pete Buttigieg. He is bright, informed, articulate and engaged.

Failing that, I'd vote for Amy Klobuchar- but no one is going to vote for TWO women. (One might surmise that I'm not in tune with the American people.)

AND failing that, I vote for Mark Kelly.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 09:57 PM

Since the announcement was made this afternoon in the first five hours the Harris campaign has brought in $46.7M. I sent something (larger than the rest of my individual contributions). The data spoke to Biden.

Joe would have won. Kamala will win. The difference is that the moneyed class got their way on which candidate will be on the ballot. That is a problem, but one to solve another day. The reason the Big Names in the party (Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, etc.) haven't endorsed Harris today is because they wanted this day to honor Biden and his work, and the endorsements will come tomorrow. And Biden is still the president, for six more months.

When it comes to a running-mate, the goal is to benefit the campaign by having someone who will bring in votes on their own. But they also have to be smart and savvy enough to step into the presidency if the need arises. If you choose someone already in office when there is a shortage of Democratic senators and congresspeople, you need to choose someone who doesn't need to be replaced (when in the interim their absence might make a difference in the balance of power.) One strategy is to choose a governor of one of the four or five states that (because of the blankety-blank electoral college) is a battleground state. (That is so unfair to the entire electorate, that the electoral college is the decider instead of the popular vote - perhaps we'll finally get THAT mess fixed soon.)

I think the reason why so many people are stepping up now to endorse Harris is to mute the bullshit that the big dollar donors might try to pull to have some other candidate compete for the presidential position. They made enough trouble, now they need to, as Texas Congress member Jasmine Crockett says "lace up their shoes and get to work."

So far (again, within seven hours of the announcement) five states have announced that their Biden electorates are now committed to Harris. This will continue through the week and by the time of the Democratic Convention hopefully this will be resolved (it also has to be done in time to head off some BS from Ohio that means the candidate has to be selected by their deadline, though the Democratic Convention is scheduled after that deadline.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 10:33 AM

Joe would have won. quote
so why was he dropped?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 11:04 AM

from new york times
R.F.K.-Aligned Super PAC Draws Heavily From a Republican Megadonor

A super PAC backing Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s bid for the Democratic nomination received $5 million from a major Republican donor who has supported Donald J. Trump in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 11:31 AM

Go back and read what is already here, Dick.

Joe wasn't "dropped." The large donors with a megaphone decided they wanted something different. Politicians in states where they fear Biden's coattails wouldn't help sweep them to victory piled on. Nothing needed to change, Biden would have won. But the complaining was likely to scare off those few voters who really didn't have a firm reason for wanting our Democracy to continue or Women's Rights to be restored, and Joe recognized that and chose to leave the race so the party can proceed with a younger candidate who might persuade the undecided. Well, kids you got what you wanted, now pony up.

The $50M that Harris raised in a few hours was all from small donors, individually without and megaphones, bonding together to build their own megaphone that shows huge support. I repeat, big names and big mouths, now is the time to support Harris so she can secure the nomination and a running mate. Get it done and out of harm's way before Putin and Trump and Thiel start meddling.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 12:42 PM

How popular is Kamala in general?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 05:55 PM

The thing , in England we're very used to politicians talking incoherent bollocks.....
not a hanging offence over here.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 06:24 PM

He wasnt dropped he just dropped out

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 06:45 PM

Wow! Did anyone else listen to Kamala Harris's speech? She was fantastic, hard hitting and believable. My money is on her. She can win.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 07:28 PM

I like Cory Booker for VP, but someone like Mark Kelly might be a safer bet.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 07:49 PM

Ebbie, I am cautiously optimistic too. Finally a glimmer of hope!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 24 - 08:50 PM

Exactly, Helen. Hopes dashed has happened so often but this one feels different. As someone said, she spoke only verifiable truths. He's going to be running scared.

We'll have to brace ourselves for the vitriol he's going to sling her way. The good thing is that I don't think it will faze her.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 12:08 AM

Unfortunately the vitriol slinging has already started but I suspect she will bat it away fairly confidently, and maybe make some home runs in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 10:12 AM

It seems the GOP is wondering if they can call up a court case to prevent Biden from handing over the DNC war chest to Harris. Lots of luck with that one, guys. Desperate measures. And if Biden decided to do an end run and step down, giving the Presidency to Harris, all of Trump's "47" merch would suddenly be obsolete. :)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 01:43 PM

I especially like this statement in Kamala Harris's first speech:

Kamala Harris has vowed to go after Republican nominee Donald Trump like the courtroom prosecutor she once was as she made her debut campaign speech.

“'I took on perpetrators of all kinds. Predators who abused women, fraudsters who ripped off consumers, cheaters who broke the rules for their own gain,' she told supporters at Biden’s campaign headquarters in Wilmington, Delaware.

“'So hear me when I say I know Donald Trump’s type. In this campaign, I will proudly, I will proudly put my record against his,' said Harris, who was attorney general of California and a US senator before serving as Biden’s vice president."

(Note: I tried to find it on ABC (Oz) News but I have read so many articles and seen it on TV so it was difficult to track it down.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 01:56 PM

Helen, here is Kamala Harris’s full speech in which she declares that ‘I know his type’. I’m impressed so far…

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 02:29 PM

Thanks BWM.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 03:15 PM

Hated all the whooping and hype but loved the speech. She gives me hope for the future. Let's hope she continues. For the first time I am looking forward to watching the next presidential debate.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 04:34 PM

Whooping and hollering is just what Americans do, Dave - it’s their ‘thang’. ;-)
Me, I just tune out all the noise. So far I’m impressed with Ms Harris. Fingers crossed…

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 04:36 PM

Yeeeeehaaaaaw!!!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 04:50 PM

Behold, an American in the wild, doing his thang, uttering his iconic cry, "Yeeeeehaaaaaw!!!".

We're happy for you, gillymor and Stilly and all of our other US friends who finally might be able to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

I think Kamala Harris's comment about knowing Donald Trump’s type is a call of the wild as well, i.e. "bring it on, (Trump) baby!".

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 05:05 PM

Thank you, Helen. I hope that sounded authentic.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 06:06 PM

Definitely authentic. David Attenborough would be convinced. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 09:35 PM

That "light" was always at the end of that tunnel. I still say that Joe would have won (and we don't need Dick jumping in and saying I have no evidence - neither does he.) Jumping on the Kamala bus was pushback at the Democrats who were trying to talk Biden out of the race as much as they were supporting her - because as AOC pointed out - many of the moneyed folks were behind the scenes wanting both of them off the ticket. By donating right away and volunteering right away - all of the small money folks were making it clear that Harris had to stay on the ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 11:26 PM

I think the light is a little bit brighter and the end of the tunnel a little bit closer.

I think President Biden deserves a huge amount of credit for soldiering on, and I think he could have succeeded but the Trump baby is a once-in-a-century challenge and Kamala Harris is all charged up to fight, with Biden beside her, not as a running mate but as a strategic advisor with inside knowledge.

And, I think it is ironic that Trump has taken some potshots at Kamala, giving her the nickname Laughing Kamala, saying you can tell a lot about people from their laugh, and it made me think: have I ever seen any footage or photos of Trump laughing? He is so negative, I don't think he even knows how to laugh. Even when he is making snide remarks about other people, he does not laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 02:46 AM

Policies are the important thing not personalities.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 03:27 AM

I wonder if it’s occurred to tRump that there’s now only one old man with declining mental agility and capacity in the Presidential race, and it’s him?

The more I see and hear Kamala Harris, the more impressed I am with her. But, of course, it’s American voters she needs to impress. Hopefully she will score big on the issues of women’s health and gun control. And, of course, we await with interest the debates - intellectually she seems to be on a different level to tRump, let’s hope she can rise above his tactics of dirty looks and insults.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 12:43 PM

How ironic that the Republicans bill themselves as the "Back the Blue" (ie. support law and order) party, who now have to justify to themselves why they would vote for a literal convicted felon over a literal state prosecutor.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 01:11 PM

Even more ironic, BWM, is that one of the goals of Project 2025 is to dismantle the Dept of Justice. I don't know a lot about that except that this week I watched a two-part documentary on Oz ABC TV in which different people around Trump were interviewed. One of them talked about the intention of re-working the DOJ to their own advantage if Trump gets back into the White House.

Four Corners: Retribution (Parts 1 & 2)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 02:00 PM

They're also using Agenda 47 to describe that nefarious plan.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 02:21 PM

When Kamala was in the nomination race against Biden (and others) I was not impressed. Primarily because of her lack of presence, according to me. I felt that I had not given her a chance, and when she ran with Joe Biden I was okay with that, but her presence as a speaker, her mannerisms under questioning, did not grow on me. I suspect I'm not alone in that feeling, and I hope that she has gone to work on her 'aspect' a la Margaret Thatcher. I was all for Joe right up to his dropping out, because there is an American saying dating back to Abraham Lincoln's second run for President with the Civil War still raging: "Don't change horses in midstream."
So amidst the gladsome tidings of her comparative youth her legal experience, her minority status, her supposed ability in a debate, the Democratic Party took a hit when Biden dropped out. I'm not saying it didn't have to go this way, but we are on untrodden ground here.

Having said all that, I also strongly feel that what we are experiencing, political stomach butterflies and all, is an actual case of DEMOCRACY WORKING. This is what happens with the perversity and unpredictability of the human animal straining at the restraints. Our institutions are holding together remarkably well. And our luck has held out as well, in the lack of violence, and the good luck in not losing a candidate due to the random act of violence of last week.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 02:53 PM

Look what charisma will buy you - someone like Trump whose bad behavior keeps all of the cameras pointed at him. I'd settle for staid or boring if the next leader will get the job done without breaking the law and restore our rights.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 11:11 PM

I just watched Biden's speech where he officially bowed out of the race. I must admit to having an unexpected emotional reaction. I felt like I was witnessing the passage of one of our last great statesmen.
But, moving on. What does anyone think about Andy Beshear as running mate for Harris. He's a 2-term Democratic governor in a deep red state, so he has shown he can win Republican and Independent votes.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 24 - 11:14 PM

Every pundit has their favorite on that short list, and they all have compelling reasons. We shall see soon, but they're keeping the cards very close to the vest.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 24 - 12:38 AM

This is where the Democratic political players can show their stuff. The 'bullpen' (if there is a better term for this, i.e. more illustrative/ conclusive, don't hesitate to weigh in here). I'm thinking that there is a possibility that TRMP and his limited brainiacs, in other words, his family and acolytes, pulled a boner with picking Vance. Savvy Dem politicos who can weigh ability, personality, state of origin, etc. etc. may turn out to be as useful as they were traditionally.

Now I'm bringing back gto memory some of the great though dated songs from a Broadway Musical of the 60s celebrating the career of Fiorello LaGuardia, one of the great politicians of New York (and a Republican). The musical, called Fiorello!, starred Tom Bosley, who could sing! He may be remembered by some of the folks who liked the long running series: "Happy Days." Anyway, the musical is a revisit to old days of smoke filled rooms, back room deals, and those are the good guys ("Politics and Poker"). And the corrupt bastards ("A LIttle Tin Box") are remembered, too.

Those days are gone, sort of. The human motivations that underlie our decisions are not.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 24 - 01:59 AM

Policies, quote from Vox
Trump, by contrast, has promised to quickly end the war in Ukraine — a pledge celebrated on placards waved in Milwaukee — most likely by pressuring Kyiv to negotiate away territory to Moscow. He is also a longtime skeptic of European security alliances, including NATO, and recently suggested Taiwan should “pay us for defense” against an invasion by China, which sent the stock price of the island’s vital semiconductor manufacturers falling. Vance, Trump’s new running mate, is one of Congress’s leading skeptics of efforts to defend the “liberal international order,” particularly when it comes to the war in Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jul 24 - 12:20 PM

Just spotted in a FarceBook post, made me larrff…

”The American approach to healthcare can be pretty shocking, but the new policy that obliges people with mental health issues to warn others of their condition by wearing a conspicuous white bandage on their ear seems downright sinister.”

I do like a bit of humour in political discussions…

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 26 Jul 24 - 03:15 PM

Very funny Backwoodsman.
Meaning to ask, are you related to the Woodsman that saved Red Riding Hood from the Wolf?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 26 Jul 24 - 04:57 PM

Or is he the Woodsman who lives out the Back and kept her hostage in the first place? Hmm?!! Maybe he hid the white bandage by wearing a wolf costume. The plot plickens. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 24 - 05:48 PM

Neither of them!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 26 Jul 24 - 06:25 PM

And now, back to the topic of discussion, I guess. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 04:26 AM

he is from lincolnshire[ the uk backwoods] and gave himself that name because the Borchester Echo rip,described him thus.
Boston linclonshire, like Clacton is a stronghold of Farage supporters
BACKWOODSMAN is an exception

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 05:01 AM

It's all right, Dick. We know he is a "good bloke" (the highest accolade any Aussie can bestow on any man)! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 06:12 AM

I’m still here… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 07:02 AM

But enough about you, let's talk about Pelosi instead. This article raises some interesting ideas about Nancy Pelosi's likely role in convincing Joe Biden to rethink his position on his Presidential campaign:

How one of the most powerful women in America helped put Kamala Harris on the Democratic ticket

"In the three weeks between US President Joe Biden's disastrous debate and his decision to step away from the 2024 ticket, one woman emerged as the key driver of efforts to push the Democratic Party towards a historic decision.

"Nancy Pelosi, a former house speaker and party elder, has been a colleague and ally of Joe Biden for more than three decades.

"'Their strong friendship is rooted in a shared dedication to public service, and devotion to their families and their faith,' Biden spokesman TJ Ducklo told the Washington Post in 2021.

"But while they may share common values and mutual respect, the two influential Democratic figures recently found themselves at odds over the 2024 presidential race — and who should be at the top of the ticket."

...

It seems to me that Ms Pelosi diplomatically navigated a difficult situation for the good of the country.

And my take on Kamala Harris running against Trump is that he is likely to underestimate her at his own peril.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 08:45 AM

I see Trump is chickening out of debates with Harris. What a surpise. Of course he is saying it is because he doesn't like ABC, because the Democrats may change their mind and because Harris is a Marxist fraud. Just shows how scared he is now running to my mind and, hopefully, to the electorate of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 09:13 AM

I always liked Nancy, and the more the Repubs tried to vilify her the more I liked her. One of the most effective Speakers of the House ever. I'm sure there were other party leaders also encouraging Uncle Joe to make one last sacrifice for the party, and country.
Now, speaking of running mates, I've been seeing a lot of buzz about Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. As a popular leader of one of a handful of key swing states. Important enough that if Shapiro can guarantee a Democrat win in that state, that alone could seal the deal. Also, Shapiro on the ticket could help to counter one Republican strategy, that of trying to label Democrats as anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 01:04 PM

Neil D, the article about Pelosi speculated that she was the contact point for many of the others, was gauging the support or not for Joe Biden continuing in the race, and then she put forward the case diplomatically when the time was right.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 07:28 PM

Helen, I consider Ms Pelosi to be another of the last great statesmen (statewoman, statesperson?} in our government. It's a shame the way the other side demonized her, but she never ran from conflict. I loved her sarcastic clapping at Trump at his State-of-the Union address and the way she tore up his talking points handout on camera. And during a national security meeting she pointed her finger right in Trump's face and said "It's always about Putin with you."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 07:40 PM

Yes, she's a hero! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jul 24 - 11:59 PM

Remarks about the religious folks not having to vote in four years if they vote for him now. His remarks are downright vile.

Speech at Turning Point, some kind of ultra religious conference or organization. Summarized as "Vote, just this time. Four more years, it'll be fixed, it'll be fine. You won't have to do it any more."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 02:51 AM

Can you do a non Instagram link?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 04:09 AM

It's OK. I found one. If this doesn't ring alarm bells with everyone, there is something seriously wrong with them!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 05:08 AM

I was just watching a 2006 re-run episode of Mythbusters and they were checking myths about flatulence, and in one scene Adam Savage referred to a f@rt as a "trump". I've never heard that term before to describe what they were politely referring to as "flatus". I'm assuming it could be a short form of the word "trumpet" but in the context of the current Presidential race, that's funny!! :-D

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 05:14 AM

‘Trump’ is in common use in the UK meaning ‘fart’, particularly amongst children as it’s regarded as the less-rude of the two words. I’ve always thought it’s probably a shortened version of ‘trumpet’.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 06:08 AM

Or maybe the short form of "Donald Trump"!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 06:18 AM

LOL! Yep, definitely that (or, as he’s known in our house, ‘Tee-Rump’)! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 10:21 AM

Dave, I tracked that back to the shortest link I could find, but sometimes it's a case of hunting in your part of the world for a working link. I post links to non-paywall news places more now (I subscribe to several but they only give a few free articles a month) to try to reach the wider world of our English speaking readers, but what companies allow to go where is a puzzle.

But as you say, "alarm bells" - that casual statement that his xtian audience won't need to vote again once he's in office should scare the bejeezus out of people! There is no ambiguity in the parts that he now says out loud.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 10:39 AM

One of my first thoughts, on hearing of the shoot-and-miss, was: "That'll push him right over the edge." Sadly, it would appear I was correct. Morituri te salutant.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 12:29 PM

Stilly, I didn't understand what you said earlier, "Remarks about the religious folks not having to vote in four years if they vote for him now" but I get it now. He is saying he will be a dictator. Does he really think he can overturn the whole of the US democratic system?

The polling so far is encouraging.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 12:39 PM

I just watched the full 65 minutes of Trump’s speech on the Times & Sunday Times YouTube video. One of the scariest, if not the scariest, things I’ve ever seen and heard - a nut-job pretending to be a ‘Christian’ gas-lighting and dog-whistling a bunch of ‘Christian’ nut-jobs. His name-calling and personal insults are truly childish, and his comment that, after four years, it would be fixed so they won’t have to vote any more can surely mean only one thing - he means to turn the US into a dictatorship (if I’m misunderstanding, please feel free to correct me).

I’m always surprised that followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ are so often also holders of Conservative beliefs and principles, but how any genuine Christian can support him - one of the least Christian, most disreputable, public figures I can imagine - is a complete mystery to me.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 12:40 PM

Apologies Helen, I guess we cross-posted.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 12:52 PM

You have more tenacity than me BWM. I couldn't watch 65 seconds!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 02:00 PM

Ha! It was a truly vile watch, Dave, but I wanted to see, as much as anything, what his tactics were to be with regard to Kamala Harris. I wasn’t disappointed - insults, calling her a ‘bum’ and ‘crooked Kamala’, taking the piss out of the pronunciation of her name, claiming she was responsible for allowing ‘millions upon millions of ‘aliens’ (WTF is it with that hate-filled word and Americans with regard to people from other countries?) to ‘flood’ into the US - just feeble, pathetic, dog-whistle schoolyard stuff. Lots of other crap about election-rigging (as you would expect), and ‘she’s going to rip your guns from your hands’ bullshit, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera…

The frightening thing is that a significant number of US voters seem to be prepared to fall for his lies and unverifiable claims, and that a significant number of those claim the moral high-ground as so-called ‘Christians’.

What a sorry mess.

I have everything crossed that KH can outflank him and win. The alternative really does not bear thinking about.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 02:13 PM

Of course Trump is worried by her. He has been told that an anagram of her name is "I alarm a shark".

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 03:52 PM

I do not like either candidate.but since lockheed martin armaments manufacturers, have hedged their bets and contributed to democrats and republicans, it seems to me that whoever wins the armament industry will have a puppet

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 04:25 PM

BWM, you said it better than me. I don't think I could listen to the whole speech by Trump because it would sicken me for all the reasons you said.

There are two hopeful articles on Oz ABC News:

A remarkable new dynamic has emerged in the US election: Kamala Harris can win

(Note: the first article is a deep-dive into a lot of issues Kamala Harris faces in her election bid but appears cautiously optimistic about her chance of success.)

A surprise veepstakes excites the Democratic Party, as Kamala Harris seeks a running mate for US election

(Note: the second article reviews each of the possible VP candidates who have been suggested so far in the media.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 28 Jul 24 - 11:45 PM

I keep thinking that if people really listen to the words coming out of his mouth they will quit supporting him. But when it comes to his supporters I guess, as Pete Seeger once said, they've got beans in their ears. I believe that Trump actually thinks he can take over the country as dictator. Maybe with one or more Reichstag fire type incidents. I would look for one just before the mid-terms. However, he can't set himself up as dictator without the full support of the military and I hope he can't secure it. If he does then I hope the lyrics of another song hold true:
this may no longer be
the land of the free
thank God it's still the home of the brave.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jul 24 - 12:55 AM

Neil D, one of the main worries about Project 2025 would be if Trump and his cronies take over/make over the Dept of Justice. That would be scary.

I'm happy that he might have shot himself in the foot by choosing JD Vance as his running mate, now that his opponent is very firmly for women's reproductive rights, among other things.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 24 - 12:51 PM

I have nothing but sympathy for Vance's wife Usha Chilukuri Vance at this point - unlike Melania as a political spouse, Usha at least has a good education. She was a Democrat until a few years ago when she married Vance. Political spouses often stop working (most do, except Dr. Jill Biden, who still teaches English at local community colleges.) As another South Indian woman attorney she has a lot more in common with Kamala than with her spouse.

Usha may be a wild card in this campaign. Melania worked as a model and spokesperson for various upscale products, so I'm not dismissing her experiences before she stepped back from it when Trump ran (though her demeanor and aura of entitlement is as unpleasant as that of her husband). Usha had a professional career as an attorney until recently, and it's a good bet there won't be nude photos of her turning up.

There's a photo out there of Kamala cooking with Mindy Kaling (on that occasion they made masala dosa) where Usha would fit right in. From the NY Times:

Ms. Harris took the marriage of cooking and politics even further during her first run at the presidency. In one YouTube video with six million views, she visited the actor Mindy Kaling’s kitchen. The two compared notes on growing up in South Indian families, made masala dosa and marveled that their parents stored spices in empty Taster’s Choice jars.

Hillary took it on the jaw when she pushed back at critics who thought she should be more a homemaker in her demeanor as first lady - her response about making cookies got a lot of flack - but to each her own. Harris's husband stepped away from his law firm and now teaches law in D.C. somewhere - we'll have to see if anyone asks Usha, should they win (heaven forbid!) what she will do.

Michelle Obama was once asked about all of the travel she did with Jill Biden when they were the White House spouses. Obama answered that during their flights Jill was "always grading papers."

I suspect the wife would make a lot better candidate than the husband, when all is said and done.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 29 Jul 24 - 02:09 PM

Here's hoping she contributes nothing to the reestablishment of this criminal regime or perhaps even damages it in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jul 24 - 02:39 PM

Joe Biden unveils blueprint to overhaul US Supreme Court and presidential immunity, but chances of it succeeding are slim

"In short: Joe Biden has unveiled a plan to overhaul the Supreme Court, and proposed a constitutional amendment which will eliminate broad presidential immunity from crimes committed while in office.

"His proposal for the Supreme Court would see term limits introduced for its nine justices, who would also have to abide by a new code of conduct.

"What's next: To become reality, the plan would need to pass through Congress with a two-thirds majority, something unlikely given its current divided make-up."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 24 - 08:00 PM

Not in this term, at any rate. But the warning shot across the Supreme Court's bow has been fired.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 02:51 AM

The two strategies are unlikely to be achieved in Biden's term, but just the thought of it being possible must be keeping Trump awake at night, which will elevate his blood pressure, and may make it difficult for him to think strategically. Bring it on, I say! Let the games begin.

And even if it doesn't succeed this year, maybe next year when - hopefully Kamala Harris is President - she will probably push forward with both projects and Trump will be trumped in trying to evade justice.

Like a rat in a cage.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 08:36 AM

They'll never get a 2/3 majority for term limits for justices. There have been many calls for term limits for congress, but I've never been a fan. Back in the 70s and 80s my state (OHIO) had two excellent senators, Metzenbaum and John Glenn, both liberal Dems who worked hard for working class Ohioans. They both served for many years, Metz for 19 years and Glenn for 25, and Senators become more effective with tenure. In both cases when they retired they were replaced by Republicans. One of our current senators the other being JD Vance, Sherrod Brown, has done wonderful things for Ohio workers in his 17 years in office. All 3 of these are popular enough liberals to keep getting elected in a red state. Then we had Dennis Kucinich, universally recognized as the most liberal Representative in Congress. Repubs hated his guts but he won over and over again in a working-class district. They finally gerrymandered that district out from under him.
Now as to limiting the Supremes would you have wanted to put a limit on Warren or Thurgood Marshall or RBG?
After FDR won 4 elections Republicans couldn't wait to apply term limits on the presidency then wanted to get rid of them so they could give Reagan a third term.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 11:32 AM

I agree, term limits have knocked out some very effective politicians. From Washington State, Foley was the Speaker of the House until idiots there decided term limits were good. There was a guy who made a living running superfluous initiatives, I don't know if he had anything to do with that one. I think he finally went to jail.

The Supreme Court has justices essentially choosing their replacements by retiring in the term of a president of their own party. Except when Mitch McConnell messes it up, of course. This would make a more uniform turnover (18 years is a good long run!)

Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, stayed too long (especially since her governor would choose a Democrat to replace her). John McCain, Republican of Arizona, stayed till the end, but we are grateful for that, because his dramatic slow walk onto the senate floor, followed by a "thumbs down" killed the Trump attempt to reverse Obamacare (the Affordable Care Act.) Trump wasn't invited to McCain's funeral, but his best friend Joe Biden, Democrat of Delaware, was.

It didn't used to be so personal.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 01:00 PM

Pros and cons and no easy answers, I guess.

Also from the same article:

"Unlike other members of the federal judiciary, the Supreme Court's life-tenured justices have no binding ethics code of conduct.

"They are subject to disclosure laws requiring them to report outside income and certain gifts, though food and other 'personal hospitality' such as lodging at an individual's residence is generally exempted.

"The court in November adopted its first code of conduct after revelations about Justice Clarence Thomas accepting undisclosed travel from a wealthy benefactor."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 01:39 PM

The Judiciary should be totally independent of government. Judges at the highest level should not be aligned to political parties - otherwise, how can they possibly be relied upon to maintain impartiality?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 02:10 PM

Shoulda, woulda, coulda, BWM!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 02:43 PM

There's an eternal dichotomy between serve for term and serve for life. I think it was a mistake to term limit the President. What if the Civil War had occurred during Lincoln's second term (admittedly not likely)? I think FDR was just the guy we needed for WW2 and that occurred during HIS second term, and our entry into it occurred during his THIRD term. And I think Obama could've used a third term.

Anyhow, there is a strong feeling that a strong good leader needs time to institute changes, yet a limited time to not cement himself into power.

TRMP probably is the all-time argument FOR a Presidential term limit. Currently I think there's a good argument for having Supreme Court justices serve for life. They are as close as we get to wise unattached sages, although the current selection is rather an exception than an exmple of same.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 07:00 PM

Funny! But still scary.

Project 2025 director ends work on plan for Donald Trump presidency after continued attack from Democrats

"In short: The man who led Project 2025 — a controversial plan for Donald Trump's second term in office — is standing down.

"Donald Trump had distanced himself from the plan, which is not officially part of his platform, but Democrats had ramped up attacks on it and pointed out it was written by Trump allies and former staff.
What's next?

"Kamala Harris's campaign has indicated it will continue to focus on Project 2025 on the trail. But Mr Trump's campaign said the project's 'demise would be greatly welcomed'".

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Jul 24 - 08:37 PM

In my day, Supreme Court justices were expected to have inclinations.

Now they're known to have agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 02:39 PM

I have a goal now, to "go high when they go low" (to quote Michelle Obama). I'm going to not send some of the caricatures in my social media posts, try to keep them to facts and reasonable representations of Trump and his ilk. Hard to do, but someone has to start (and there is so much good derogatory stuff out there - except it isn't doing anything but pile deeper in my particular silo.)

Paving the road to hell, one good intention at a time . . .

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jul 24 - 03:06 PM

Don't worry, we'll get there!!!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 03:57 PM

I think this is a Presidential race factor, but as a political event it might call for its own thread.
This morning was announced a captive/criminal/hostage release deal involving the USA, Germany, Russia, and Turkish moderating. It was made to sound very important and Biden sounded quite alert and in charge and praised Germany for stepping up in that they allowed a convicted Russian State sanctioned assassin back to Russia.
In return Evan Gershkovich is freed, and several Germans apparently.
This would have made Biden look if not good, in charge and cognizent of events. Now that he's dropped up I'm not sure how this devolves to Kamala. I'm confident the Reps will try to frame this as badly as possible, but it shows Dems in power and in charge and dealing with allies and the world so as influence events. So far.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 04:23 PM

I suspect that the nations such as Germany that were holding Russian prisoners (that were exchanged for the Americans and others) had in mind that doing this now steals a lot of thunder from Trump, who bragged that he alone could bring home some of these folks. If he asked.

It may have been less about Biden and more about how to stick it to Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Aug 24 - 06:41 PM

That occurred to me but what occurred to Putin? ;-)
Real fly-on-the-wall stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Aug 24 - 05:07 PM

Harris has enough votes from the primary electors and is now officially the nominee. They may have to rubber stamp something for it to be really official, but the numbers are in and tell the story.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 24 - 05:38 PM

Trump has shifted his policy on abortion, presumably to get votes

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 02 Aug 24 - 09:48 PM

I hope you are wrong SRS. I would like to think that countries like Germany just wanted to get their people back, more so than trying to make anyone look good or bad by comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Aug 24 - 10:18 PM

Germany had the high-dollar prisoner that Putin had wanted back for quite a while, the rest seems to have revolved around that. Someone so awful that giving him up meant a big hit to their judicial/justice system. Of course they wanted their people back, all of these nations wanted their people back.

Discussion last night said that these negotiations had been going on for months, and that Alexei Navalny was originally part of the package. His release seems to have concerned Putin so much that he had Navalny murdered. Then the rest went forward. I haven't pulled the Wall Street Journal's apparently detailed article about the exchange, but it may offer more insight.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 02:03 AM

I hate the idea that Navalney was killed due to the negotiations. That would be a very sour note indeed. To my mind that makes them less than worthless or Putin deserving of severe sanctions. or both.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 11:41 AM

The remark about Navalny being part of the original negotiations didn't come from an official source, it may have been speculative. Apparently they started all of this while he was still alive, so it is a reasonable premise. I heard another description of the process involving messages passed between spies and couriers, it wasn't just diplomats seated around a table.

Trump speaking to the National Association of Black Journalists was more of his intentional stagecraft; he never intended to answer questions. He accused them of being late and rude, claimed he was the best president for Blacks since Abraham Lincoln, but as a talking head pointed out this morning, if the first question had been "Good to see you, how are the wife and kids?" he would have had the same answers. Trump’s hostility to Black journalists renews questions over how news media should cover his rhetoric His goal is to make noise and distract from Harris.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 05:49 PM

I've talked about Alexei Navalny with some folks and I think my last scribble was an overeaction
for three reasons:

1) Navalny was in prison because he returned to Russia on his own. He was there (not so much in prison, but Russia) by choice.
2) His days were probably numbered by Putin no matter what.
3) We don't know that he was part of the negotiations between the many parties that made up the August 1 exchange of perpetrators and hostages.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 08:18 PM

I heard or read the same speculation about Navalny. It would have been from a "real" i.e. reputable news/media source because I don't sully myself with the disreputable media sources. LOL

I saw on the ABC (Oz) News that Trump wants to debate Ms Harris on Fox News on a different date than the previously arranged debate on the ABC America News.

My bet: 1) he's running scared, 2) he wants to talk all over the top of her, be aggressive, call her names, avoid talking policies, spread his lies, etc, etc without being called to order by his media buddies.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 09:24 PM

FOX is safer ground for Trump, but if the arrangement was already on ABC, then his trying to change it is a power play. FOX won't do the fact checking that ABC will. And whatever they do, make him stay in his spot. He prowled around the stage and loomed over Hillary during their debate. Damned threatening.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 03 Aug 24 - 11:38 PM

Need another reason to vote against The Donald, he is now stating his intention to shut down Google if elected. His rationale: Google bad, very bad.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 10:08 AM

That sounds like a dog whistle from Trump trying to get a Google billionaire to bribe him to not shut down Google.

We should learn the Harris VP pick soon.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 07:14 PM

Robert F. Kennedy has been unravelling for years but at an accelerated rate these days. From the New York Times.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the independent presidential candidate, confessed on Sunday that he had left a dead bear cub in Central Park in Manhattan in 2014 because he thought it would be “amusing.”

Mr. Kennedy posted a video detailing the bizarre story on social media apparently ahead of an article in The New Yorker.

“Looking forward to seeing how you spin this one,” he said, tagging the magazine.

In the video, Mr. Kennedy appears to be seated in a kitchen as he casually tells the actress Roseanne Barr about the ordeal. He says that he was driving through the Hudson Valley when he saw a woman in a van hit and kill a young bear.

“I pulled over and I picked up the bear and put him in the back of my van because I was going to skin the bear,” he says. “It was very good condition and I was going to put the meat in my refrigerator.”

Mr. Kennedy then details how he had to attend a dinner at Peter Luger Steak House in New York City and then head to the airport, which meant he had to get rid of the bear. He decided to leave the bear in Central Park with an old bicycle to make it look like it had been hit by the bike.

Mr. Kennedy says that he was worried when officials investigated the crime scene, “because my prints were all over that bike.”

Ms. Barr listens closely to the story, laughing and looking shocked. Mr. Kennedy tells her that fact checkers from The New Yorker asked him about the story: “It’s going to be a bad story.”

And this man wants access to the nuclear codes?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 07:26 PM

It's a shame RFK Jr wasn't picked as Trump's running mate. They are two of a kind, judging by that story.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 09:25 PM

I think the main difference between RFK and DJT is that the worm in RFKs noggin died.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 09:35 PM

LOL

Worms The Pogues

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 03:11 AM

Kennedys policy that candidates should only represent those who elected them and not corporations is a good policy, ,he would get my vote

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 07:45 AM

I just hope he siphons off some of Trump's crackpot vote.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 08:06 AM

what is crackpot about not allowing politicians to be bought by corporations?
voters, elect politicians therefore elected representatives should not be bought by corporations, the laws about political funding need to be changed

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 08:23 AM

You're obviously not very familiar with your chosen candidate, Sandman.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 09:27 AM

the crackpots are those people who vote for pliticians who have been bought that includes trump and harris

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 11:01 AM

Dick, your powers of discernment are not being applied to the candidate himself. Don't send me PMs about your political views; why don't you do some research instead of lobbing one-liners into the conversation?

RFK Jr. is building a presidential campaign around conspiracy theories

Since Robert F. Kennedy Jr. launched his campaign challenging President Biden for the 2024 Democratic presidential nomination, he has given hours of interviews to podcasts, magazines and TV networks. He paints a dark, conspiratorial picture of the world, bristling with debunked theories, misleading claims and outright falsehoods.

Wi-Fi causes cancer and "leaky brain," Kennedy told podcaster Joe Rogan last month. Antidepressants are to blame for school shootings, he mused during an appearance with Twitter CEO Elon Musk. Chemicals in the water supply could turn children transgender, he told right-wing Canadian psychologist and podcaster Jordan Peterson, echoing a false assertion made by serial fabulist Alex Jones. AIDS may not be caused by HIV, he has suggested multiple times.

There's no credible evidence for any of these assertions or for Kennedy's longest-running false claims: that vaccines cause autism and are more harmful than the diseases they're designed to protect against.

Yet Kennedy is building a campaign for the highest office around these conspiracy theories and the idea that fact-checking or criticizing them amounts to censorship. His throughline is the bedrock conspiratorial premise that "they" (the government, pharmaceutical companies, the media) are lying to you — but that he is telling the truth.

"This is what happens when you censor somebody for 18 years," Kennedy told a cheering crowd at his April campaign kickoff in Boston. "They shouldn't have shut me up that long, 'cause now I'm really going to let loose on them for the next 18 months."

It's an apparent bet that the political, cultural and media dynamics that elevated Kennedy and the anti-vaccination movement during the COVID-19 pandemic can similarly propel him to the White House.

The Kennedy campaign did not respond to NPR's questions for this story.

Allegations of censorship and collusion

Kennedy isn't the first American politician to actively advance conspiracy theories. Donald Trump promoted birtherism and, later, the Big Lie that the 2020 election was stolen from him. Richard Nixon blamed Jews for orchestrating communist plots and controlling the government.

But what stands out in Kennedy's case is the sheer volume of what he has asserted over the years, from his insistence that Republicans stole the 2004 election to his claims that 5G networks are being used for mass surveillance to his belief that the CIA assassinated his uncle.

In 2021, he was named one of the top spreaders of misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines on social media. He was kicked off Instagram, along with his organization, Children's Health Defense, which was also removed from Facebook (Instagram reinstated Kennedy after he announced his presidential bid).

He told NPR that year that the social media bans had cost him "hundreds of thousands of dollars" in donations. But federal tax filings show otherwise: Children's Health Defense's revenue surged during the pandemic, from $3 million in 2019 to $7 million in 2020 to $16 million in 2021.

Today, Kennedy says the social media bans and the media's rejection of his views over the years are what galvanized him to run for president.

He accuses the White House of orchestrating his deplatforming. He is suing the Biden administration and media outlets including The Associated Press, The Washington Post, the BBC and Reuters for alleged censorship.

For Kennedy, his conviction that he's being censored is another example of the collusion between government agencies and corporations that he believes is the root of the United States' problems.

"My mission over the next 18 months of this campaign and throughout my presidency will be to end the corrupt merger of state and corporate power that is threatening now to impose a new kind of corporate feudalism on our country," he said in his April campaign announcement.

Claims of censorship have also become a core grievance of many conservatives and disaffected liberals, who see the rise of social media policies to combat harmful misinformation, conspiracy theories and election interference as infringing on their free speech rights.

From political scion to anti-vaccine crusader
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is the son of the late U.S. attorney general, New York senator and Democratic presidential hopeful Robert F. Kennedy, as well as the nephew of former President John F. Kennedy. For years, he was best known as a wayward member of a famous, tragedy-stricken family and as a crusading environmental lawyer who helped clean up the Hudson River and launched a global movement to protect waterways.

It was his work fighting mercury pollution that led him into the world of vaccine skepticism. As he tells it, after hearing from mothers convinced their children had been harmed by a mercury-based preservative in routine vaccines, he became a convert to their cause. (The preservative in question was removed from most childhood vaccines in 2001 out of an abundance of caution and was never used in the measles, mumps and rubella vaccines that were the focal point for concerns about autism.)

In 2005, he made this argument in an exposé called "Deadly Immunity" in Rolling Stone and on Salon.com. The piece turned out to be deeply compromised by errors and selective use of evidence and was eventually retracted in 2011.

Despite study after study finding no connection between vaccines and autism, Kennedy has only dug in deeper to his discredited beliefs. For years, they put him on the fringe of American public discourse — until COVID-19.

It's quite a long article, I'll stop there. NPR should be readable from outside the US.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 24 - 11:53 PM

Trump is doing one campaign event a week these days, telling people he has plenty of votes, he doesn't need more votes. His own party people are telling him to lay off of the racial slurs (at this point in the US there are so many bi-racial families that this is not a novelty, it is commonplace. My parents were Scandinavian and Irish, but all of us sibs and cousins have married Hispanic, Philippino, Japanese, and Turkish spouses - of all of the grandkids there is only one blue-eyed blonde in the bunch. We are pretty typical among our peers.)

Trump's attention is being pulled back to the courts, so I'll look for an article for the Trump trial thread to describe the weekend decision handed down by Judge Chutkan that denied the request to dismiss the case. The possible ABC debate is just days from his sentencing hearing in September in the NY hush money case.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 12:23 AM

SRS, thanks for the exposé of RFK Jr. Someone had to do it and I didn't have the energy for all the research and typing. He certainly is living proof that sometimes the apple does fall far from the tree.
It's a shame he has gone down that rabbit hole on vaccines and Covid conspiracies because otherwise he has much to recommend him. He has worked tirelessly for environmental causes for nearly 40 years and has been a strong advocate for indigenous rights. He has also spoken out on economic inequality but, sadly, he's like so many populist leaders in our history who, in spite of best intentions, go way off the tracks on certain issues (anti-vaxing) as to become a threat to our society.
There is a plus in all of this, however. Most people aren't aware of his environmentalism advocacy for the poor and working class. They are only aware of his more recent antifacts lunacy, so if he gets any votes at all they are more likely to be siphoned from Trump than Harris.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 10:28 AM

Tim Walz has been selected as the Harris running mate. Governor of Minnesota, former congressman, school teacher, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 11:00 AM

I know that poll-watching is the favourite form of armchair generalship in our internet-focussed society, but I so wish it were not so. The only poll that matters is the one that will be conducted with actual ballots during the actual election.

I'm reading less and less of the several news sources to which I subscribe because so many of the reports and opinion pieces focus on the latest polling and wild speculation about what it all means.

I believe (i.e., I don't know but I've been told) that such polls are conducted by telephone, suggesting that the sample skews strongly toward people who have the time and inclination to answer a telephone call from an unknown number. (My phone is set to shunt all such calls to voice mail.) I also believe that a not insignificant number of people lie to pollsters, some because they don't want to admit even to themselves what they really think, and others because they like to be transgressive when they know they can get away with it.

The rise of Ms Harris and her team is fascinating, almost eclipsing the tawdry spectacle of the Trump campaign, but I know better than to call the race now for either side, whatever the current poll numbers.

Now I'll go check the echo chamber for a backgrounder on Mr Walz.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 11:38 AM

I have to admit to being unaware of Tim Walz till now. Just went over the New York Times background info which was somewhat helpful though not definitive. I have one big issue: According to the Times, he does not drink coffee, but Diet Mountain Dew. I won't go into how far from myself that is, but it's pretty far, still, big tent and all that, eh?

It is one of the major political events that will affect our lives going forward, so it says a lot for Harris, though right now, can's say what.

Fingers crossed.

Also toes, various hairs, and my earlobes are tryin'.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 11:50 AM

Any views on Tim Walz from those in the know?

A lot of my faviurite tunes are waltzes but I don't think that counts for anything :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 12:08 PM

I thought Hilary's choice, another Tim, I believe, was fantastic, and Pence made short work of him!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 12:21 PM

Well said, Charmion!

I agree that the only poll which matters and which will make a difference is the election.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 12:30 PM

I think Walz is a brilliant pick, a liberal, progressive Midwest governor who's pro-choice and who reportedly has a strong internet presence. The Daily Beast has a profile.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 12:57 PM

Thanks for the link, Gilly. Walz sounds like my kinda guy - fingers crossed that he and KH appeal to a significant number of ‘floating’ voters, and they can put that weird, near-octogenarian back in his box for good.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 01:42 PM

From the last paragraph in that link posted by gillymor, I read this article about JD Vance. The journalist makes some interesting points about Vance's claim of being of hillbilly stock:

I Grew Up in Appalachia Too. J.D. Vance Is a Hillbilly Phony

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 03:12 PM

I watched a couple of interviews with Walz. He was exceptionally well-spoken and coherent on several topics.
   I sure hope someone secures a debate between him and JD Vance.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 04:10 PM

The most I've heard about him recently were lots of sound bytes of his calling the Trump campaign "weird." We need more than name calling, but it sounds like there will be more quality content coming. And of course the Trump folks are already doing their name-calling.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 07:03 PM

Get to know Tim Walz

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 06 Aug 24 - 10:51 PM

Thanks for the link SRS. I was aware of his policies and achievements
as governor. He's on my side on
most issues. I didn't realize how personable and downright funny he is.
I loved this interchange with his daughter:
Tim - After that we'll get corndogs.
Hope- I'm vegetarian.
Tim - Turkey then.
hope - Turkey's meat.
Tim - Not in Minnesota. Turkey is special.

                VOTE BLUE!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 05:50 AM

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can

Written by a man who lived in the penthouse of New York's exclusive Dakota Apartments and owned multiple other apartments in the same building, some used just for storage.

The rich will always have the power. It costs a lot to get elected as President and those in the running will take funding from wherever they can get it, so long as the donors broadly fit their political stance.

DC

---

The complete (and irrelevant) lyrics to John Lennon's Imagine were removed from a post above this one, but this topical response is staying. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 08:40 AM

Right on the button, Doug! Thanks for injecting a modicum of realism into recent posts.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 11:17 AM

Walz (pronounced Walls) has hit the ground running and the talking heads observed that he wasn't nervous or flustered about his first huge national stage event. Harris was told that she could win with any of the three candidates she narrowed it down to, but these two hit it off right away and that goes a long way to planning to work with someone for at least the next four, possibly eight years.

During his time in the US House Walz received contributions from the National Rifle Association, but he donated the amount of money that he'd originally received to charities that supported gun rights, and when in his state the alignment was perfect, two years into his first term, (with the house and senate all Democratic) he passed gun background checks, codified the right to abortion, made free breakfast and lunch available to school children, passed a child tax credit, and when the awful event of the George Floyd murder happened he removed the prosecutor in that district and replaced him with someone who would try the case.

He has made a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 11:46 AM

I only heard a short section from his speech that was shown on BBC News today, but it confirmed what I’d gathered from the piece I read about him - that he’s my kinda guy (metaphorically-speaking of course), he holds views I can agree with, and he will be a tough nut for the Trump gang to crack. I think Harris/Walz will make a great team.

I’m beginning to feel more positive about the possibility of a Democrat President being elected in November.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 12:27 PM

Let's be optimistic and return to:

DemocratIC

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 12:36 PM

Amen to that, Robo!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 02:47 PM

The other thing I noticed from their first time on stage together, they both had big beautiful smiles on their faces, laughed about some things, were serious about other things, seemed to have a positive outlook on their political aims, and talked about policies in a positive way.

Compare that to the usual, no smiling, no laughing, bear-with-a sore-head, man-with-a-grudge Trump (and Vance) performances and I know which side I would pick if I could vote.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 07:23 PM

I wish you could vote too Helen. Now that I think about it, because the US President has such an enormous impact on the global weal, maybe the rest of the world should have a say in our election. The problem with that is that populous dictatorships like Russia and China would have an undue influence.
I'm happy with Walz as VP. He is solidly liberal on all the issues and can connect with people of all ages from seniors to children. I originally liked Shapiro because I felt he could deliver Pennsylvania, which could be THE Swing state this year. But it was becoming apparent that he could split the party over the one issue that could divide Democrats, Palestine. After that I wanted Mark Kelly. After all who would vote against an astronaut. But I do think Walz will complement Harris better than the rest of the pack.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 09:07 PM

With a paper-thin majority in the senate, Mark Kelly is in an important position and we can't be sure another Democrat from Arizona would fill his seat for the remainder of his term. The reason Cooper of North Carolina declined to be in the consideration is because if he left his state might be subject to the wacko world of a Trumper Lieutenant-Governor.

Trump and his ilk are busy attacking Walz' military record, busy trying to tear down everything. They aren't working to promote good causes their own side supports because there aren't any.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 04:15 AM

Good point about Kelly being too important as senator from AZ to give that up to run for Veep. I hadn't considered that before but should have. It makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 11:37 AM

”Walz was prepared to serve in Iraq”

Source?

According to this account Walz left the Army National Guard to pursue his political career in May 2005, two months prior to his unit being put on notice to deploy to Iraq.

No suggestion there that he was ‘prepared to serve in Iraq’, rather the opposite - that he was more interested in a career in politics.

Of course, in true Trumper tradition, JD ‘Hillbilly’ Vance tried to make capital from Walz’s choice.

---

The posts this responds to have been removed and that party is taking a well-deserved time out. Now to clean up other messes he made. . . ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 11:49 AM

I'm for anyone who'll give schoolkids free school breakfasts and lunches. Large numbers of children in every country go to school either unfed or having eaten something that's not going to keep them alert and intelligent. School meals - nourishing food planned by nutritionists and chefs - are the most important thing we can do to have an educated populace.
Here's how they do it in France, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 12:03 PM

Nothing happens quickly in the US Government, and in the military, it is even slower. My ex was a civilian employee in personnel management in the Army and had to apply to retire three months ahead of his proposed retirement. And if you don't leave on the date you said you would, all of that paperwork is tossed and you start all over again.

Trump and Vance have nothing to offer so they are spending their time attacking the Democrats. I heard a recent proposal Trump is trying to float to bring in more votes, so here's the back story: back in the Reagan administration, when he said government was the problem and talked about "welfare queens" he also struck a nasty blow against retirees and started taxing Social Security benefits. That has always been a sore point, because it is benefits we paid into and is being taxed as wages. Trump suggested he would remove the tax from social security - if that gets traction then the Democratic answer should be that this has always been on their radar and would happen regardless of who wins the election.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 01:29 PM

Trump is now awkwardly trying to stage some 'debate' in some venue that he feels vaguely safe in. I'm wondering if he'll finally make up some excuse to back out totally.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 02:44 PM

Now he's live as I type, having suggested 3 dates in Sept. when he claims he'd debate... he's now just doing a stream of consciousness ramble, repeating most of the absurd things he's said in the past, including nonsense about his crowds being larger than anyone else.

Any one who takes him seriously is crazier than he is.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 03:23 PM

Sadly Bill, like the right wing nutters here in the UK, too many of them exist and they are annoyingly vociferous:-( Hopefully, again like here, the normal, sensible majority will prevail. Just watch out for riots sparked by Musk's right wing enablers.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 05:21 PM

What on earth could people have been thinking when they forced Musk to buy Twitter. It not only destroyed a good forum, it turned it into ground zero for conspiracy stuff and Musk should never be posting there. To the former owners of Twitter - I hope you invested your take from that "sale" well. You lined your pockets at the expense of the world - literally.

I saw a little of the Trump thing - MSNBC gritted it's teeth and played the whole thing, but I couldn't keep watching. Talk about nails on a chalkboard - Trump is awful. Simply awful.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 12:23 AM

SRS, I'd like to return to something you said a couple days ago:
With a paper-thin majority in the senate, Mark Kelly is in an important position and we can't be sure another Democrat from Arizona would fill his seat for the remainder of his term. I wonder if you could give a bit more detail about why that would be. I thought the governor, a democrat in this case, would be the one to appoint his replacement if Kelly left the senate.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 10:36 AM

"- MSNBC gritted it's teeth and played the whole thing,"

And Lawrence O'Donnell spent the first part of his show last night taking all networks to task for blindly covering the thing, and particularly hard on the *journalists* for asking stupid and irrelevant questions.
Since this thing was held at Mar-A-Lago, we don't know who got to ask questions or what the criteria were for being allowed in!
Trump's adventures are being treated as like a huge traffic pile up that they can't resist gawking at, if only to marvel at how many lies he told.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Aug 24 - 12:01 PM

Neil D, you're correct. I forgot, last year Arizona installed a Democratic governor elected in 2022. She got in on a very thin margin also, if I recall the commentary correctly. Brewer was so awful when she was in she left a big imprint as far as general state politics. She and Ducey seem to have supported the Sheriff (Joe Arpaio) who behaved so badly that he had an over-large position in Arizona politics. McSally (R) was appointed to fill the end of McCain's term, then Kelly beat her (there was some great editorial cartooning comparing the two - McSally in her fighter jet and Kelly in the much larger Space Shuttle passing over the top of her.) Looking at the state history they do go back and forth between the parties with reliable regularity.

Bill, you're correct. That trainwreck of the "news conference" by Trump didn't need to be dignified with full coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 03:58 AM

Funny!

My Hubby sent me something he saw on a forum:

Someone saw a bumper sticker in the US which said. "Pray for Trump Psalm 109:8" and the person looked up the relevant Psalm which says, "Psalm 109:8 Let his days be few and brief; and let others step forward to replace him". The person's response was, "At last - I can voice a Biblical prayer for our President". (Maybe this was actually back when he was President.)

That says it all, in my opinion! And it is cleverly disguised as a supposedly supportive message for Trump.

Bring it on! Let the games begin! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 04:58 AM

Was, MUSK forced to buy twitter?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 06:33 AM

He made an offer which was accepted by Twitter, but he then tried to back out. Twitter's owners sued him and the court decided he had to go through with the deal.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Aug 24 - 11:21 AM

Trump's campaign is complaining that they were hacked and are blaming the Iranians. Well, it wouldn't be Putin's Russia this time. Anyway, apparently stuff has been shared that the campaign was concealing. According to the Daily Beast it is Trump’s 270-Page Dossier of JD Vance’s ‘Vulnerabilities’ Hacked by Iran
The Trump campaign announced it had been hacked by “foreign sources” that leaked internal documents to news organizations. Iran is the prime suspect.

What you didn't hear this year was anyone in the Harris campaign challenging foreign actors to dig up stuff on the opposition. In 2016 Russia hacked the Clinton site right after Trump asked them to. The odd thing about the Trump claim appears in this tidbit:

The Trump campaign accused Iran of a hack-and-leak operation Saturday, after a 270-page dossier of JD Vance’s “vulnerabilities” was sent to at least two news organizations.

The internal campaign vetting report on Vance was sent to Politico and The Washington Post from an AOL.com email address, along with a document on Marco Rubio, the Florida senator who was not chosen as Donald Trump’s running mate.

Hours after Politico revealed it received the materials, the Trump campaign said it had been hacked, accusing Iran of the breach.

“The Iranians know that President Trump will stop their reign of terror just like he did in his first four years in the White House. Any media or news outlet reprinting documents or internal communications are doing the bidding of America’s enemies and doing exactly what they want,” Trump spokesman Steven Cheung told NBC News.

The irony is stunning, isn't it? Shoe is on the other foot now.

Trump stopped the nuclear treaty with Iran, something that John Kerry had worked long and hard to set up during the Obama administration. Trump set them up to expand their nuclear program now, resulting in sanctions against Iran in this administration for the behavior. Trump is not necessarily their friend, but I doubt he's going after them, either.

Regardless of that, it is out there after someone hacked it. A little more detail from the Daily Beast (not the best source, but not behind a paywall so most readers of this thread can go to the original link):

He went on: “On Friday, a new report from Microsoft found that Iranian hackers broke into the account of a ‘high ranking official’ on the U.S. presidential campaign in June 2024, which coincides with the close timing of President Trump’s selection of a vice presidential nominee.”

The Biden administration has not commented on the alleged hack.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 11 Aug 24 - 02:09 PM

The shoe is on the other foot, and I suspect there will be a lot more shoes, and he'll need a lot more feet before this is over. He is acting as the victim when he is targeted but he acts justified when he is the perpetrator.

JD Vance is not going to be happy either, having his dirty laundry aired in public. Also 270 pages of vulnerabilities identified, not by his opponents but by his own allies, that must be really galling.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 05:05 AM

Perhaps (and this is just a wild guess on my part, and far from being an informed opinion) the 'reasonable and decent' arm of the GOP are coming to their senses and beginning to be ready to accept another term of Democrat Presidency in preference to the double-horror-story of Trump and Hillbilly Vance in the White House.

Maybe? Just maybe? Miracles have been known to happen...

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 10:53 AM

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/trump-administration-accomplishments/
I am not a trump or harris supporter, but these apprently were his achievements

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 11:28 AM

Dick, that is an archival page WRITTEN BY TRUMP FOLKS, left behind and stored by archivists ONLY because it was a document written during the administration. It is less than meaningless. It's a list, and it's also inaccurate. Did you actually look at any of the things on it?

I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 11:34 AM

https://www.whitehouse.gov/therecord/AND HERE IS THE BIDEN HARRIS RECORD

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 11:49 AM

Trump falsely claims Harris rally in Michigan had no crowd.

Trump is all about size - bigger, better, longer, taller, richer. And when it is not working in his favor, he lies about it.

‘Most progressive governor in the country’: Former governor on Walz - a former Minnesota governor (R) says Walz and Harris are most progressive folks out there, but as the interviewer points out, recent polls say otherwise. The whole goal is to define your own campaigns, not let the opposition define it for you.

Lists don't help.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Aug 24 - 11:51 AM

If Trump accomplished anything as president it is negated many times over by the many corrupt and criminal acts he perpetrated during his time in office and during his 2016 campaign. It's hard for me imagine that any rational and moral person would even consider voting for him.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 07:15 AM

"______ you are not impartial, who wrote the biden harris record"

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you post both lists and didn't the person you accused of being partial post the remark "lists don't help."

Mind boggling.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 09:16 AM

I don’t believe SRS has ever claimed to be ‘impartial’. She’s not an idiot either.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 11:25 AM

Today, as usual, I feel like a chorister sitting through a sermon -- by which I mean that all the media sources I find most easily seem to echo my own knee-jerk opinions. There must be disinterested sources in English, but I have yet to find them, and the few "conservative" sources I know are offensive in so many ways that I don't want the various algorithms to associate them with me.

I have no vote, of course, being Canadian, but US politics affect us so profoundly that I can't look away without feeling foolish. Pierre Trudeau's metaphor of the mouse trying to sleep with the elephant was nothing but unvarnished truth, and our relationships are far more entangled now, more than 50 years on.

My natural inclination is to recoil from the current Republican program and candidates as I would from toxic sludge. But many centre-left US ideological shibboleths strike me as strange to ridiculous -- e.g., why the hell not socialized medicine? -- so the Democrats do things that I see as downright odd. Staying with health care, for example, President Obama's obeisance to the insurance industry in the drafting of the Affordable Care Act amazed me then, and puzzles me to this day.

I believe that Trump would be completely unelectable in Canada, but this country has repeatedly elected the likes of William "Bible Bill" Aberhardt and Maurice Duplessis, so I could be wrong. J.D. Vance has clear analogues on this side of the border, including Stephen Harper (no longer in politics, thank God) and going on with Pierre Poilievre, who gives me the creeps.

The constant crystal-gazing and sloganeering that passes for journalism these days just makes me tired.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 12:11 PM

The insurance industry was going to be cut out of the health care operation back when Hillary was the first lady with the assignment of working on a health plan during Bill's administration. The insurance companies jumped all over them, putting up horrible ads (and I think they started some of the "death panel" stuff around then.) They kept protesting that she wasn't elected co-president, or elected at all (as if cabinet members were elected?) Hillary had to back off, and I think the Obama folks took the message.

Until Citizens United is overturned and the huge dollars are removed from politics, we will be facing a glut of smear advertising from the industries whose oxen will be gored. Elizabeth Warren needs to make the case fast if there is a triple Democratic house, senate, and presidency. That and another of investment practices (stock buybacks) need to be illegal again so the big dollars don't go back so much to the CEOs and stockholders as huge dividends.

Dick has entered one of his manic phases where he is trying to destroy conversations and is starting nonsense threads all over. A toddler on a sugar high. It's this behavior that got him completely kicked out of Mudcat before and it can happen again. I refuse to read his PMs so this is the only place he's going to get that message. Stop the crap or you're completely out. Again. And maybe the person who let you back in last time will remember why we all thought you needed to go. Dick, your musical contributions aren't worth it when you make all of the trouble everywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 01:23 PM

Charmion, you said " President Obama's obeisance to the insurance industry in the drafting of the Affordable Care Act amazed me then, and puzzles me to this day." Remember, presidents don't write bills, congress does. Presidents can state what they want and with a majority in both houses, which Democrats had at the time, he generally gets it. The problem was a handful of what was called Blue Dog Democrats. These were Democratic senators from red states (states that trend to vote Republican). The rationale is that if they seem to be too liberal it will be hard to get re-elected in those states. That was the excuse anyway but dig into it a bit and you will find that all of the so-called Blue Dogs had also taken at least a million dollars in contributions from insurance companies, large medical corporations and drug companies. It took nearly a year to hash out the Affordable Care Act and the infighting was between Democrats. The Repubs wanted no healthcare bill at all so they sat on the sidelines throwing brickbats. I remember a catch phrase from the moderates in the party that were becoming increasingly desperate to get a bill, any bill passed: Don't let the great get in the way of the good. We ended up with the mediocre.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 02:00 PM

> That trainwreck of the "news conference" by Trump
> didn't need to be dignified with full coverage.

*Disagree*. Had the channels edited it, either they would have made Tr*mp look good by straining out the blethers, or Tr*mp could have accused them of censorship. Quite likely both at once.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 02:22 PM

That "news conference" was set up at his house in such a way that no one could hear the questions reporters asked so he said what he wanted and ignored the softball questions that were asked. It wasn't a real news conference.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 04:45 PM

NeilD, I understand what you're telling me. That's a scenario that could literally never happen in the Canadian parliamentary system, where the Senate is primarily an advisory and review body. What the Commons wants badly enough the Commons gets, and the governing party (headed by the Prime Minister) drives the Commons.

Canada's public health system was carefully designed to cover hospital costs and physicians' services (the largest wallet-drainers in 1965, when the original legislation was enacted), leaving all other medical costs -- including stand-alone clinic services, home care, dentistry and drugs -- for the insurance industry to feast on. The doctors screamed bloody murder and even went out on strike (for a while), but the insurance industry smiled beatifically and accepted a deal that would benefit them as accepting "points" instead of a salary benefits the star of a hit movie.

As for Mr T, I'm well beyond saturation point. The very sound of his fatuous voice and the look of his smug face make me feel rather ill.

Mr Walz has the stage presence of a Broadway diva, and his track record in Minnesota looks impressive. Ms Harris's shoes make my feet hurt at long distance, but she knows how to work a crowd. And the pair of them are fun to watch -- a big advantage at this point.

I note that the Harris-Walz poll numbers have now surpassed those of The Other People by more than the margin of error.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 13 Aug 24 - 06:50 PM

Charmion, you might get some satisfaction from looking at Trump's face now because I think he looks worried. As the only reason I can see for him trying to be re-elected is to pardon himself from all convictions or re-work the Dept of Justice to his own ends, I think he has every reason to be fretting about the future.

He never smiled or laughed before but now he looks decidedly grim.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 07:58 AM

While it's certainly a disgrace that a wealthy nation like the U.S. doesn't have National health care I will never speak ill of Obamacare. As Neil noted Prez Obama got what he could and fought hard to get it and I'm forever grateful. I had some serious health issues before I became eligible for Medicare and without the effective, affordable insurance I was able to get under the ACA I would have been up the creek.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 11:58 AM

To the Tasty Canadians who think they could never be TRMPed:

Wasn't a Mayor of Toronto, Rob Ford, recorded in conversation while using Crack Cocaine? And didn't he continue in office after that tender moment?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 12:29 PM

The US elections are of great interest abroad, as demonstrated by Russian meddling in years past and reports of Iran trying it's hand at hacking this time around. Another dip into the Daily Beast reporting to learn that turnabout's fair play - apparently Roger Stone, a self-proclaimed master of dirty tricks on behalf of Trump was himself hacked.

The email account of longtime Donald Trump ally Roger Stone was breached as part of suspected hacking attempts from Iran targeting Trump’s campaign, according to reports.

The self-proclaimed GOP “agent provocateur”—whose dirty tricks can be traced back to the Nixon campaign—was duped by an espionage unit.

The hackers then used Stone’s account in an effort to get into another account belonging to a senior Trump campaign official, a source told CNN. That attempt was part of wider efforts to breach campaign networks which are now being investigated by the FBI.

The irony here is that

Stone was convicted of seven felony charges in November 2019, including for lying about his attempts to obtain information from WikiLeaks about Hillary Clinton’s emails stolen by Russian hackers and released on the eve of the 2016 election. Trump then pardoned Stone just before leaving the White House in 2020.

Read the rest at the link.

I'm more concerned about the Twitterverse than Iran at this point. Elon Musk is bonkers and the bots he allows on X are insidious. Another Trump event, this time an "interview" with Musk is setting up the site to explode with toxic Trump lies and overseas bots. And money for Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 01:09 PM

Oh, Robomatic, among Canadian mayors Rob Ford was small time. Take a look at Camillien Houde, the Nazi-adjacent mayor of Montreal who spent the entire Second World War in prison for his fascist views. Then cast a glance at Maurice Duplessis, premier of Quebec who governed so harshly — and corruptly — that the Quiet Revolution was the obvious result.

But Trump could not get elected here. In Canadian federal politics, every single Member of Parliament, including Cabinet ministers and the Prime Minister, has to be selected by a riding association and win a constituency election. There’s no starting at the top. I don’t believe for a minute that Trump could pass the smell test administered by the local party faithful of a riding association. If a national party tried to parachute him into a riding, his record of bad-faith dealing in his various businesses would torpedo him. We’re petty like that.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 02:29 PM

My view on Elon Musk regarding Trump is that Elon aspires to everything Trump has "achieved" and it wouldn't surprise me if Elon took a tilt at the White House at some point in his life. He has all the same qualities as Trump: he's cringeworthy, he has COTUS (centre of the universe syndrome), he is creepy especially around women, he has fathered children with three women (so far), he is rich ... the list goes on and on.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 02:55 PM

Elon is from South Africa. Thank dawg no way as far as the presidency. That is the one office that to hold you must have been born as a US citizen. (Meaning, if your parents were American and you were born abroad, that's ok, but you can't be from someplace else and naturalized here, or else Arnold Schwarzenegger would have run.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 03:41 PM

That is good news! :-D

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 06:16 AM

> COTUS

Nice one, Helen. Is that the new way to pronounce "trust fund child"?

.... I've just realised there's one critical difference between Trump and Musk: musk is an acceptable ingredient for scent.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 06:50 AM

But the scent of musk - you either love it or you hate it.

I developed the acronym COTUS, but I've been using the "centre of the universe" label for many years for a lot of people I have encountered IRL. In the context of the Presidential race, it is appropriate in a wicked way because of POTUS, SCOTUS, etc etc. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 10:12 AM

I did say "acceptable", Helen, not "universally accepted" :-) .

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 11:28 AM

There is a fact sheet list released by the White House today that might be helpful to the Harris campaign - the first 10 negotiated prescription drug prices for Medicare recipients starting next year.

HHS has reached agreements with all participating manufacturers on new negotiated, lower drug prices for the first 10 drugs selected for the Medicare drug price negotiation program. After manufacturers have steadily increased the list prices of all 10 of these drugs since they went on the market, these new prices will cut the list price of these drugs between 38 and 79 percent.

The new prices will go into effect for people with Medicare Part D prescription drug coverage in 2026.

Follow the link to the list - they are very expensive. Years ago the US banned cigarette ads on the radio and TV but for some reason started allowing drug ads. Those advertising costs must be driving up the price of the medications, and it's one thing I'd like to see reformed in the next administration (and I reiterate, they have to let Elizabeth Warren implement some of the plans she has proposed for years.) The drugs on this list have names familiar to US residents who watch commercial TV (or streaming services that have now pushed ads into their programming).

Meanwhile, we're not here to discuss Dick's theories on irrelevant side topics. They will continue to be deleted because they are simply an attempt to broaden the political subject and hopefully start fights.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 11:43 AM

There is also news of a proposed ban from the Harris administration on "price gouging" in the food marketplace; people may have wondered if some price increases were legitimate as COVID ended, but the evidence is clear that costs haven't gone up for the corporations to the extent they are gouging consumers with both price increases and shrink-flation (making almost identical looking packaging but reducing the size and volume for the same or bit higher price.)

“There’s a big difference between fair pricing in competitive markets, and excessive prices unrelated to the costs of doing business,” the Harris campaign said in a statement. “Americans can see that difference in their grocery bills.”

The proposed ban is part of a broader economic policy platform that the Democratic presidential nominee plans to unveil Friday at a campaign rally in battleground North Carolina.

Harris will also pledge that if elected president, she will direct her administration to increase scrutiny of potential mergers between large supermarkets and food producers, “specifically for the risk that the proposed merger would raise grocery prices for consumers,” her campaign said.

This package of regulatory proposals is one of the Harris campaign’s earliest efforts to outline an economic platform that is independent of President Joe Biden’s agenda.

I have stated a number of times since all of the price raises and the CEO pay package increases following COVID that a windfall profit tax is again called for (that was used against the oil companies for gouging on gas prices in the 1970s). Do that concurrent with making them stop the price gouging. Trump gave the corporations and their CEOs carte blanche for their misbehavior after the big tax breaks he gave them. It's time to reel all of those rich folks back in: Harris to propose federal ban on ‘corporate price-gouging’ in food and groceries

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 11:48 AM

And then we have her opponent who's main concern seems to be crowd size.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 04:18 PM

Today Biden and Harris made a victory lap visit in Prince George's County, Maryland, with the release of the news about those drug negotiations.

Biden, Harris greeted by chants of 'Thank you, Joe' at 1st joint event since he exited race

The 2022 Inflation Reduction Act allows the government to directly broker with drug manufacturers for the first time in the history of the Medicare program. In addition to the 10 drugs negotiated for 2026, the government can select 15 more drugs for negotiation in 2027 and another 15 drugs for 2028 and up to 20 more drugs each year after.

Biden remarked they were "just getting started" and that he and Harris "are going to keep standing up to Big Pharma."

We'll have to see if the discussion of the expenses of Big Pharma come up following this announcement (I had a PM suggesting how an accountant could make all of the advertising costs go away; I would argue that it is a simple matter of "dollars in, dollars out." It's probably mutable in the hands of accountants, but I'd still like to see the numbers.

Trump is trying to characterize the Harris campaign and prospective administration as catastrophic and has also been saying that Biden is angry with Harris, something that was disproved today.

The Republican party convention took care of business just before Biden stepped out of the race; they were unmolested by the Democrats. Let's see if Trump and company are equally courteous next week.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 05:04 PM

gillymor - Trump obviously thinks that size IS important and is trying to make up for the lack of it on other quarters.

I am referring to his hands of course - What did you think I was talking about? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 24 - 05:05 PM

Most of my sources have a paywall, but CNN has the story also: RFK Jr. reached out to Harris campaign about administration role in exchange for endorsement

From the New York Times the subhead is "Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was unsuccessful with his request to discuss endorsing the Democratic nominee in exchange for a top administration job, according to two people briefed on the outreach."

The Washington Post article subhead reads "Harris has rebuffed the offer of an endorsement, while Kennedy also has had conversations with Republican nominee Donald Trump about a role in his administration."

CNN has this gem in its article:

Kennedy campaign spokesperson Stefanie Spear said in a statement to CNN that Kennedy “is willing to meet with leaders of both parties to discuss the possibility of a unity government.”

A unity government? Like the strange bedfellows that coalesce to hold power in places like Israel? Is that what the UK does? Canada?

“No one has any intention of negotiating with a MAGA-funded fringe candidate who has sought out a job with Donald Trump in exchange for an endorsement,” DNC spokesperson Matt Corridoni said Wednesday in a statement to CNN.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 10:56 AM

Yes, Stilly, Canada has been known to go in for coalition and "unity" governments in times of crisis -- both world wars -- and when the governing party is in the minority, as now. The Liberals are in formal cahoots with the New Democratic Party to overcome the minority position with which they emerged from the last federal election.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 11:31 AM

"What did you think I was talking about? :-D"

I don't want to know, Dave. I'm of the "don't ask and don't tell" mindset. :)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 12:26 PM

If you can get Instagram here is a several minutes (20?) of Heather Cox Richardson talking with Joanne Freeman, both historians, wondering if there has ever been a case in history of a more unhinged candidate than Trump? And bemoaning (correctly) that the modern media has normalized his behavior, they don't treat it independently as a crisis of its own. (Except Lawrence O'Donnell, who really ripped into all of the media outlets, including his own, for giving Trump "equal time" for a rambling "press conference"). And Trump's done more of them lately, like the other day when a lot of groceries sat wilting on a table behind him. Why? And I hope they throw out all of that meat and spoiled stuff.


https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-tX5Fvs4cR/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 12:43 PM

> a lot of groceries sat wilting on a table behind him

Did this include a lettuce :-) ?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 01:22 PM

I don't remember everything, but there were bacon and sausage and eggs and other things things that should be refrigerated. I picked up "wilting" from Alex Wagner who used it to sum up the spoiled-on-a-hot-day state of a fair amount of it.

AP has a story, click through the photos.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 02:24 PM

Well, there's the issue of TRMP as a symptom of flagging Democracy, democratic/republican values, and character issues in general.
There is an issue as large as any over the impact of the internet.
There are major consequences on actions of the LEFT as well as the RIGHT.

Getting back to TRMP I feel there has been a lowering of the bar of quality for behaviour on all fronts. He has, IMHO, a marvelous ability to corrupt, and then justify corruption not only for himself but for others whether in support or opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 03:12 PM

”Getting back to TRMP I feel there has been a lowering of the bar of quality for behaviour on all fronts. He has, IMHO, a marvelous ability to corrupt, and then justify corruption not only for himself but for others whether in support or opposition.”

I agree, but I don’t believe there is anything ‘marvellous’ about his ‘ability to corrupt, and then justify…etc’. In fact, it is appalling and revolting, like everything else about him. An appalling, revolting, pus-filled sore on the face of the US in particular, and the world in general.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 06:49 PM

Robomatic, have you or anyone else here read Sinclair Lewis' It Can't Happen Here? It's prescient; Senator Berzelius "Buzz" Windrip is a populist running for president and is classic Trump in that he's a buffoon out there blowing his own horn but is actually a tool of the folks in the background (in Trump's case, the Heritage foundation, but in the past, McConnell who wanted to put all of his judges in place). We live in a dystopian time, and that novel from 1935 shows that Lewis was watching his current events (listen to some of Rachel Maddow's podcasts about politicians of that era) and coming up with a scenario that is darned close to happening.

Of course the Trump sycophants in the US House are trying to flex some muscle - I see today a story that the House Oversight Committee (in the GOP-led House) are opening an investigation into Walz. Never mind there is nothing to investigate. The example of bad governance demonstrated by the MAGA Republicans will be used in cautionary tales in the future. House Republicans target Tim Walz in new probe

The things they bring to light as they try to make him look bad only make him look better. I don't remember hearing that he spent a year teaching in China after graduating from college, but that gives him more on-the-ground foreign policy background, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 11:50 AM

Stilly, to refine Charmion's point, in this 44th Parliament, the two more "progressive" parties have entered into a "supply and confidence agreement" to manage the risk that the government might fall at a less than propitious moment, i.e. one that neither party chose and that gives an advantage to the Conservative opposition. "Supply" refers to the government's taxing and spending plan and involves three votes understood to be confidence motion in each year in Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 01:14 PM

Charmion: I want to thank you for your Canada info. I've driven across and through Canada and fallen in love with many parts of it and have a prejudice in favor of Canadians for more than one reason. I don't think it'll ever make me root for the Bluejays but stranger things have happened. I WILL sing OH CANADA will full throated ferver.
Backwoodsman: Methinks though dost protest too much. TRMP is a very bad sign of the times, but it isn't all him nor only him. He is a product of America, and thus ourselves. Not waxing poetic, here. One finger points, the rest point back.
SRS: Haven't read Sinclair Lewis, and while his effort was decidedly poetic and prophetic, there are many such signs: There's A Face in the Crowd There's the line in "I Claudius" the BBC production where a historian tells Macro that his dictatorship is a sign that man should never have lost his sense of smell, there's the somewhat prophetic movie: "The Manchurian Candidate" with actor James Gregory as a standin for Joe McCarthy pounding his ketchup bottle at home, and then announcing in the Senate that there are '57' Communist infiltrators in American government.

We carry our gravedigger's worms in ourselves. They are always there, ready to feast on a self destructive society and they furnish an argument for diversity, tolerance, and nonviolence.

Having said all the above, I personally have had a lower opinion of the Trumplicans than ever of any American party in my lifetime. I used to say simply that Republicans are evil and Democrats are cowards, and the American people will go for evil over cowardice in an election. I think the Reps cornered the market on both of those commodities, while the Democrats kind of lost themselves in terminal 'improvement' of the human condition which scared the rest of us, many into the Rep refuge.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 06:56 PM

Robo, I'm aware of the works you mention, they touch on the megalomania of the personality in the GOP, but the Lewis novel is disturbing in how complex the dystopian world he created and how it evolves. Good thing there wasn't WiFi or smart phones back then or keeping under the radar would have been much more difficult.

I heard a lovely story this morning from Faith Salie on Wait Wait Don't Tell Me; her then nine-year-old daughter saw a photo that her grandmother had taken with Bill Clinton. When Faith told the daughter who was in the photo, she answered "you mean Hillary's husband?" Hillary was a guest on the radio show today, and Faith said she originally told that story to Bill when she met him recently, and he thought it was funny (hard on the ego, but we're talking about a nine-year-old, not born when he was pres.) Hillary thought it was great!

Meanwhile, here in the US we're looking ahead to next week's Democratic National Convention. From Politico: Behind the Scenes at the DNC: Controlled Chaos and ‘Death Stares’
We helped run the podium at past conventions. Here’s what the Harris-Walz team is facing. It ain’t always pretty.

Trump thinks Monday night's speech is a bad gig for Biden; Trump isn't the best judge of what is good for the Democratic party, so we'll just pass on his observations. He'll probably spew his vitriol from the cheap seats on Truth Social or X all week.

An interesting paragraph in that Politico story:

For all but a small handful of speakers, we treat this as the “wedding guest” rule; it ain’t about you. You have to say what the candidate wants. This is not an easy message to deliver to a senator or House member. We still have nightmares about Harry Reid’s death stares, Maxine Waters’ death threats and one governor who told us to “stop busting his balls.” We’ve had to have uncomfortable conversations, like when we had to tell former Rep. Barney Frank in 2012 that because of his pronunciation challenges, his speech comparing “Mitt Romney” to the “myth of Romney” all sounded like “Miff Romney.” Or when we told a twentysomething actress that, as adamant as she was, her friends from her struggling days surely didn’t depend on Medicare; she probably meant Medicaid.

Do people go rogue? They have. In 2004, Al Sharpton couldn’t have been more agreeable — submitted a draft, rehearsed it, and then got up on stage and pulled an entirely different speech out of his pocket.

It promises to be interesting. I won't watch much of it, except for some of the evening ("Prime Time") activities.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 07:50 PM

Aside from missing WWDTM today because we had a fantastic Summer day and I was pulling weeds (that are also trees) at a park across town, I have a more jaundiced view of the Dems. I'd heard the Hilary's husband story. But I also remember Bill's endorsement for her during the 2016 convention which I thought was so self serving it buried the lead. Other than a few of those kinds of stories I kind of like that folks like Harry Reid, Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, and others kind of outrage the opposition. Al Sharpton is a long time guttersnipe, but he is in the American guttersnipe tradition. You have to deal with 'em as you find 'em. And another interesting book that interprets some of these folks would be Tom Wolfe's very excellent and discomforting "Bonfire of the Vanities." He had an Al Sharpton character in there.
Anotther book that is even less relevant to our politics of the day but is sort of relevant to the politics it came from is "The Chester A. Arthur Conspiracy." The premise to that one is too wild to mention here, it is Americn political fiction but it does purport to bring to life some unsavory American politicians who really lived and breathed.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 09:56 PM

That Chester Arthur book is a another work of fiction - I've never heard of Wiegand, and the blurb sounds rather improbable. Sinclair Lewis was a really gifted writer and that makes a difference, he studied human nature. And I must agree with you, your descriptions do exhibit a jaundiced view of the party. Sorry about that.

We'll see if there are previews of the Democratic Convention week to come on Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 11:45 PM

My Hubby sent me this cartoon:

Trump is still obsessed with the size of his crowds | Sheneman

I went searching for it with no luck but he then sent me the link.

While searching I also found this one:

COVID crowds

Take us back four years and every second member of the crowd is a COVID virus.

There were a lot more Trump cartoons out there if you are looking for some light relief.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 24 - 03:39 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgl2xjxlz3xo Source BBC

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 18 Aug 24 - 05:00 AM

one of the best sources of Trump cartoons is Gary Trudeau's Doonesbury - he has compiled 4 volumes of his cartoons, & a 5th is planned!

I first discovered his cartoons in the 80s when one of our papers ran them, & I've bought several of his books over the decades, including the first volume -

30 Years of Doonesbury on Trump, New York Times Bestseller
He tried to warn us. Ever since the release of the first Trump-for-President trial balloon in 1987, Doonesbury's Garry Trudeau has tirelessly tracked and highlighted the unsavory career of the most unqualified candidate to ever aspire to the White House. It's all there--the hilarious narcissism, the schoolyard bullying, the loathsome misogyny, the breathtaking ignorance; and a good portion of the Doonesbury cast has been tangled up in it. Join Duke, Honey, Earl, J.J., Mike, Mark, Roland, Boopsie, B.D., Sal, Alice, Elmont, Sid, Zonker, Sam, Bernie, Rev. Sloan, and even the Red Rascal as they cross storylines with the big, orange airhorn who's giving the GOP such fits.

Garry Trudeau is the "sleazeball" "third-rate talent" who draws the "overrated" comic strip Doonesbury, which "very few people read." He lives in New York City with his wife Jane Pauley, who "has far more talent than he has." (quotes from guess who!)

the strip - note only the Sunday strips are current, all other dates are archival

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 18 Aug 24 - 03:51 PM

I watched an interview on an Oz TV show called 60 Minutes last night about this:

Donald Trump's Nephew Fred C. Trump III Set to Release Tell-All Memoir About Trump Family

Like his sister Mary, Fred Trump is now publicly speaking out about his uncle Donald Trump and also campaigning for disability rights because his son was born with epilepsy and has disabilities as a consequence.

Fred Trump said that Donald Trump told him to let his son die. If you thought you had heard the worst from Donald Trump before this, this one takes it to a new, even worse level.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Aug 24 - 04:22 PM

We have a similar 60 Minutes that has been around for decades. And when Mary Trump wrote her first book about Donald she discussed the family history and what happened to her nephew, that the Donald and his sibs decided to stop paying the insurance for the family, for all of the worse reasons.

I mentioned before, there is typically a quiet period in the campaigning when each of the parties holds their convention. Something tells me that won't be the case this week, Trump hates for the attention to be turned away from him.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 18 Aug 24 - 05:00 PM

Yes, I was fairly sure that there is a US show related to 60 Minutes. I watch it very rarely, unless I see that something interesting is coming up. It seems to be balanced reporting, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Aug 24 - 05:25 PM

Well, for amusement read this article about D.T's appearance in Bloom County... with cartoons.
Cat with Trump's brain

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Aug 24 - 12:22 PM

Choices, choices . . . where to share this. Here or in the Trump trials thread.

Prosecutors defer to judge on Trump sentencing delay in hush money case
Trump’s lawyers argue they won't have enough time to properly pursue an appeal before his sentencing if the judge rejects Trump’s motion to dismiss the verdict.

This is all about the election, but it is also all about his criminal case - he hopes if he wins he can defer anything Merchan might impose on him.

It seems all the more critical that Trump receive a sentence. In a simple sense of fair play - for example - if former stockbroker Martha Stewart (I say that to show the magazine magnate knew better) had to do real prison time for erasing an inappropriate stock move, Trump needs to do real time for his crap.

The DA will defer to the judge. Puts a lot more pressure on the judge, but I hope he's up to it.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 19 Aug 24 - 07:24 PM

US intelligence officials say Iran is to blame for hack of Donald Trump's presidential campaign

"The US intelligence community has said that Iran is to blame for the hack of Donald Trump's presidential campaign.

"The joint statement from the FBI and other federal agencies was the first formal attribution of the hack to a foreign entity, though the Trump campaign had previously said Iran was responsible.

"They said Iran perceived this year's presidential election to be particularly consequential and was determined through the hacking operation and other activities to interfere in American politics and 'to stoke discord and undermine confidence in our democratic institutions'."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Aug 24 - 08:27 PM

The store of intelligence in the Trump campaign and the GOP is bankrupt. Iraq trying to hack both campaigns is a puzzle, they're likely to get better treatment from the Democrats, to possibly try to restore the status as it was before Trump went into office.

The convention is firing up now, union speakers on stage and it'll lead up to people introducing Biden and in turn his speaking about a lot of things consequential to him as well as to supporting Harris. I expect this to be unlike any keynote speech than we've ever heard at one of these conventions. Twenty years ago it was young senator Barack Obama who gave the keynote speech at the 2004 convention in Boston, MA. That was the stepping off point for him; ears perked up and talk of a presidential run started at that moment. Tonight will offer the capstone of a 50-year career. An interesting contrast and quite the set of bookends for the Obama and Biden administrations.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 01:30 AM

Good speeches tonight. Probably scared the crap out of Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 02:05 AM

A crap-free Trump - now that is a worthy goal to aim for! :-D

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 02:13 AM

God how I love that man.
I just watched President Biden's speech at the Democratic convention and I'm still in tears, from watching the farewell of the greatest president in my lifetime. (I go back to JFK) Ignore the GOP propaganda. This country is SO much better off than the horror show of 4 years ago. From record high unemployment to record low unemployment. From a democratic republic on the verge of implosion to a more secure democracy. And after a really long tough battle against inflation, caused mostly by Trump's bungled COVID response, it has been flattened out and is beginning to roll back. Infrastructure is being repaired, maintained and built. On the world stage he has repaired the damage done to our relationship with our allies by Trump. He has bolstered NATO and seen it expand. His leadership is the main reason that an independent Ukraine still exists.
After four years of achievement this remarkable man, because of some perceived loss of cognitive ability (I would point out that he just spoke for over an hour without a teleprompter), stepped aside for the good of the country. I would rank this sacrifice with Washington refusing the crown and stepping down after two terms.
Joe Biden is the great statesman that Trump can never be;
The world leader that Trump can never be;
The empathetic communicator that Trump can never be;
The faithful husband (50 years with Jill) that Trump (3 wives and countless concubines) can never be:
The decent human that Trump can never be.
His like shall never pass our way again.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 02:32 AM

Cheers to that, Neil D!

I saw the last bit of his speech and I had tears and it's not even my country. His achievements should be celebrated.

I think there is definitely a glimmer of hope for the future now.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 04:28 AM

Article in The Register:

OpenAI kills Iranian accounts using ChatGPT to write US election disinfo

[....] Despite being posted on several websites, however, the influence operation "does not appear to have achieved meaningful audience engagement," according to a Friday alert.

The first comment on the article suggests why:

The problem any AI is going to have spreading disinformation in the US election is that they will be competing with Musk and Trump

In fact it maybe an useful test of sentience when the LLM just returns "bugger this, you lot are just too crazy, I'm going back to creating 12 fingered porn pics"

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 12:08 PM

There are some recent political and social movements that contributed to the events of this week. The #MeToo movement spoke out loud and brought a lot of serial preditors down (it snagged a few Good ol' boys also, and most of them are still ok - there was some discernment that happened as that movement grew). The MeToo movement is what snagged Donald Trump (it generated a new law in NY State that allowed the decades old case by E. Jean Carroll to go forward.) George Floyd was murdered on video and his murderers were charged and convicted. That happened under Trump's watch and he wanted the National Guard to shoot protesters in the legs. And Roe V. Wade was overturned, thanks to Trump and McConnell. At this point in time you have angry women fully engaged and many men who are their allies, and the families and friends of dead Black men and women feeling some effect of a shift in the treatment of cops who kill (still way too often and with impunity). The goal is to get cops to stop killing unarmed civilians; if they keep it up, the goal is to imprison them for the crime they commit. The ultimate goal is to keep people out of prison in the first place and keep them from returning if imprisonment happens. Kamala was working on a plan like this as the Attorney General in California.

Last night was about the entire population; it wasn't another convention featuring White men's view of the political landscape as it has always gone before. Obama was an asterisk there, but still a man. Now, women are front and center, talking about women's issues as human issues (as Hillary said when she was first lady: "human rights are women's rights and women's rights are human rights") now on full display at the convention and have a strong voice.

It was a barn-burner of a speech by Biden; the fact that several people shed tears last night was a good thing. Crockett's story about Harris, who she had never met, taking a look at her and asking "what's wrong?" went a long way to show Harris' ability to build people up and send them forward stronger. There is nothing in the Trump DNA that could ever build up anyone except his children and his personal bank account. And even then, some of his children are more equal in his eyes than others.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 02:21 PM

The speech made me wonder:
What if Biden had been in that good form for the debate?

He might still be the nominee. Whether that would have been better or worse is a matter of speculation. However, it worked out that the Democratic party has come together with enthusiasm like I've seldom seen, not even with Obama. Couple it with the Republicans in their strategy of 'blindfolded circular firing squad', and the outlooks promising. If the down-ballot races also get similar results, Kamala might be able to really roll!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 04:49 PM

I had that same thought. I suspect with the current configuration the coattails will do more heavy lifting.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 05:23 PM

Yes, watching Pres Biden's face in his speech, the animation and positivity, the lack of stress and fatigue, I think a weight has been lifted from his shoulders. I think he probably felt obliged to fight against the imminent threat of Trump but the thought of that battle was draining his energy. Now that the battle is in Kamala Harris's hands with Tim Walz at her side, I think Biden can throw his considerable support behind them with more strength and cautious optimism.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 06:12 PM

Right, Bill, but I don't think we could risk another debate performance like the one that did him in. The stakes are too high. Us seniors have good days and bad days.
I didn't watch the doin's last night but I watched the highlights on Morning Joe and apparently President Biden gave a powerful and gracious speech and one line that stood out for me, among many, is “Now, the murder rate is falling faster than at any time in history. Violent crime has dropped to the lowest level of more than 50 years. And crime will keep coming down when we put a prosecutor in the Oval Office instead of a convicted felon.”

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Aug 24 - 07:14 PM

Stephanie Grisham, former Trump Press Secretary and the first of his folks to resign on Jan. 6, just spoke. "He mocked his supporters as basement dwellers" - or something along those lines.

I would love to hear Cassidy Hutchinson discuss his throwing plates at the wall followed by streaks of catsup being washed off by the White House staff, but that's probably more information than we need at the convention.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 12:42 AM

The Obamas gave excellent speeches, and among the points were Michelle saying to use your common sense - if your candidate isn't exactly perfect but you understand how important this election is because of who else is running, grow a set of ovaries and vote for your candidate (my words, not hers - and really, who decided balls are tough? To paraphrase Sarah Silverman, they're incredibly fussy and delicate.)

Obama touched on Trump's constant complaints "ever since he rode that golden elevator" into the first campaign. To have thoughtful and lucid people on stage all week it puts Trump in a bad light. Someone asked in one of the MSNBC social media posts if his team "tranqed" Trump to keep him quiet today.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 04:56 AM

I believe that Trump actually thinks he can take over the country as dictator." quote NEILD.
IF Trump thinks that he is Deluded.
I think Trump believes the Hitler quote" credibility does not matter, the victor will not be asked if he told the truth"

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 09:44 AM

Prez Obama is still the coolest guy in the room, with the possible exception of Michelle. They both gave dynamite speeches last night. The Second Gentleman, Doug Emhoff also came a across with a glowing, heartfelt tribute to his wife. What a contrast with Trump's situation.

Obama takes the measure of Trump

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 09:46 AM

Sandman, for the record, I don't think he can take over the country and yes, he is deluded. He thinks he can get elected and then use artificial crises (I previously mentioned the Reichstag fire) to suspend future elections. Of course that could only work if he had the full support of the military and I doubt that will happen. But this al hinges on him getting elected so let's not let that happen.
Oh and Sandman, now that I've engaged with you I feel the need for a nap.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 11:36 AM

The fact that two large sports arenas were packed to the rafters last night as the DNC met in Chicago still and Harris/Walz had an event in Wisconsin (at the place where the GOP convention was held last month). Last night Trump addressed a group at the Livingston County Sheriff's Office facility in Howell, Michigan.

Although access to the event venue — a warehouse-like facility operated by the sheriff’s office — was limited to a few dozen supporters, dozens more Trump followers made sure to show up in the surrounding neighborhood.

The difference in crowd size (that Barack Obama rightly gave a nod to as one of Trump's major interests) was significant.

Here is a bit of history from Heather Cox Richardson's "Letters From An American" newsletter today, giving context to what is going on in current US politics:

Obama emphasized Americans’ shared values and pushed back against “those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes.” He reached back into history to prove that “the bedrock of this nation” is “the belief that there are better days ahead.” He called that belief “[t]he audacity of hope.”

Almost exactly twenty years after his 2004 speech, the same man, now a former president who served for eight years, spoke at tonight’s Democratic National Convention. But the past two decades have challenged his vision.

When voters put Obama into the White House in 2008, Republicans set out to make sure they couldn’t govern. Mitch McConnell (R–KY) became Senate minority leader in 2007 and, using the filibuster, stopped most Democratic measures by requiring 60 votes to move anything to a vote.

In 2010 the Supreme Court handed down the Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission decision, declaring that corporations and other outside groups could spend as much money as they wanted on elections. Citizens United increased Republican seats in legislative bodies, and in the 2010 midterm elections, Republicans packed state legislatures with their own candidates in time to be in charge of redistricting their states after the 2010 census. Republicans controlled the key states of Florida, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Ohio, and Michigan, as well as other, smaller states, and after the election, they used precise computer models to win previously Democratic House seats.

In the 2012 election, Democrats won the White House decisively, the Senate easily, and a majority of 1.4 million votes for House candidates. Yet Republicans came away with a thirty-three-seat majority in the House of Representatives. And then, with the 2013 Shelby County v. Holder decision, the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act, making it harder to protect Democratic voters.

As the Republicans skewed the mechanics of government to favor themselves, their candidates no longer had to worry they would lose general elections but did have to worry about losing primaries to more extreme challengers. So they swung farther and farther to the right, demonizing the Democrats until finally those who remain Republicans have given up on democracy altogether.

Michelle Obama made it clear that we see what the GOP is trying to do and need to work to fix things.

And then Mrs. Obama took up the mantle of her mother, warning that demonizing others and taking away their rights, “only makes us small.” It “demeans and cheapens our politics. It only serves to further discourage good, big-hearted people from wanting to get involved at all. America, our parents taught us better than that.”

It is “up to us to be the solution that we seek.” she said. She urged people to “be the antidote to the darkness and division.” “[W]hether you’re Democrat, Republican, Independent, or none of the above,” she said, “this is our time to stand up for what we know. In our hearts is right. Not just for our basic freedoms, but for decency and humanity, for basic respect. Dignity and empathy. For the values at the very foundation of this democracy.”

“Don’t just sit around and complain. Do something.”

Between the two of them they washed the floor with Trump and his ilk. Getting a good turnout is essential to fixing some of this stuff because the GOP purging voter rolls, the gerrymandering, and the stuffing of courts is going to make it harder as time passes.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 05:06 PM

This is on-topic re Trump & Elon Musk:

Tesla's reputation in Australia is tanking, with sales down and some buyers turned off by Elon Musk

"In short: Data provided exclusively to the ABC shows Tesla's "brand health" in Australia has steadily worsened over the past two years and is now in negative territory.

"EV groups say Tesla CEO Elon Musk has alienated potential buyers with his inflammatory rhetoric and support for known climate denier Donald Trump.


"What's next? The EV-buying demographic is shifting from early adopters who are generally loyal to Tesla to a broader segment who can access a wider range of non-Tesla models.

"On the face of it, Charlie Bell seems like an ideal Tesla customer.

The retired forestry researcher on NSW's south coast is preparing to buy his first electric vehicle (EV), having already installed rooftop solar and a home battery.

"I've always been a bit of a greenie," he says.

"He likes Teslas, Australia's most popular EV brand, but he's adamant he'll never buy one.

"The reason is simple: Elon Musk.

"The very rich, extremely online CEO of Tesla has alienated Mr Bell with, among other things, his "inane" public comments and endorsement of Donald Trump's run for the US presidency.

"And, according to new data, many other Australians feel the same.

YouGov, a market research company, has observed a sharp fall in the public's assessment of the Tesla brand since Mr Musk bought Twitter (now X) in November 2022."

[There is a graph just below that paragraph which shows the marked fall in popularity of Tesla vehicle in relation to significant points in Musk's public life.]

.....

"It's been a steep fall from grace for Tesla. Just two years ago, it was one of the few suppliers of EVs to Australia and held up as a clean energy pioneer, a model for a greener, car-driving future.

"Mr Musk was its erratic mastermind, known for stunts like launching a Tesla Roadster into space in 2018, or wading into South Australia's energy debate with a Big Battery solution.

"A turning point came in late 2022 when the multi-billionaire bought X and overhauled its moderation policies, allowing climate misinformation, conspiracy theories and far-right hate speech to proliferate.

"Over time, he became increasingly outspoken about his right-wing political views.

"In recent months, the self-described "free speech absolutist" has been accused of using X as a megaphone to amplify anti-immigration sentiment, including fuelling unrest during the UK's recent riots.

"Last week he hosted Donald Trump on X in a much-hyped interview where both men said there was no urgent need to cut carbon emissions, and Mr Trump called for more fossil fuel production."

...

Another section of the article describes a similar downturn in the U.S.

"US Democrats turn away from Tesla as California sales plummet"

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 21 Aug 24 - 06:01 PM

The rest of the article mentions some other possible factors for the reduced number of Tesla EV cars being bought, including the fact that there are now more brands available than when the Tesla cars were originally introduced.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Aug 24 - 11:55 PM

The Democratic National Convention for 2024 is done and dusted. That was a spectacular retrospective speech by Kamala, in which she drew the distinction between the Democratic party and the party of Trump while she introduced a lot of Americans to who she is. During the week they made the case for Harris/Walz so thoroughly and through so many diverse voices that Trump is a no-go for the US.

In so many words she made the case that she is already doing much of this work, what you see this evening is what a President Harris looks like.

We can all see that the only work Trump did or would do is on his own behalf. His campaign is deflating more every day.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 02:22 AM

Harris and Walz are impressive. Fingers crossed for them. But there are many voters who are not politically well-educated, who feel badly done-by, and who fall for the tRump man-baby bluster. Let’s hope they are significantly outnumbered by those who wish for a Presidential team who are intelligent, well-educated, mature adults with the best interests of the US as a whole taking precedence over their own personal interests.

I like Biden a lot, I like Harris/Walz even more. Once again, fingers crossed.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 03:50 AM

Helen, I've never understood why businesspersons with a product to sell, would make any kind of political statement. What kind of math is telling them that when they alienate one half of the political spectrum, they can sell twice as many units to the other half. That being said, it seems that hitching your wagon to Trump is especially treacherous. Look what has become of Rudy and the pillow guy and a number of lawyers and employees who've been crushed under the wheels of the Trump bus.
In the same way, look at the negative impact he's had on the Republican party. They have now lost three straight elections, two midterms and the presidency, while allowing Trump to move the party further and further away from the mainstream, making it more difficult to win elections. Why they continue to treat him like some kind of godking is baffling to me.
And in regards to Musk, he is having issues with advertisers as well as consumers, suing them for not advertising on Twitter:
In November 2023, about a year after Musk bought the company, a number of advertisers began fleeing X over concerns about their ads showing up next to pro-Nazi content and hate speech on the site in general, with Musk inflaming tensions with his own posts endorsing an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

Musk later said those fleeing advertisers were engaging in “blackmail” and, using a profanity, essentially told them to go away.

But after they did go away, he is now suing them for going away.
Democrats in this cycle have done a brilliant job of tagging Repubs with the adjective "weird". Well none weirder that Elon who destroyed 500,000 trees to build a factory and named his baby "“X Æ A-Xii”.
I'm not sure which is the greater sin.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 04:01 AM

Just seeing snippets about the Trump crowd mocking Tim Walz's son but not seen anything concrete. If it is true they should be ashamed of themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 04:19 AM

Neil D, you said "Why they continue to treat him like some kind of godking is baffling to me."

I wonder if deep down in the bowels of the true Republican party - not the "reality" TV star hype party - that they are hoping Trump will shoot himself in the foot and lose the election big-time. One of the analytical news shows I saw this week posed the possibility that an important chunk of the Republican party may be prepared to lose this election so that they can get rid of Trump once and for all.

Also you said, "Well none weirder that Elon who destroyed 500,000 trees to build a factory and named his baby 'X Æ A-Xii'.

"I'm not sure which is the greater sin."

Personally, I think that a person who exposes his baby to a lifetime of ridicule and bullying is not a real person at all. For me, that is the greater sin. I'm placing a bet that his son and any of his other children with oddball names might change their names when they come of age.

Elon Musk’s 12 children in chronological order

And if Trump can't see how bad his decision is to be endorsed by Musk, maybe his political brand is on a downward slide.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 05:47 AM

Helen, I don't know about " deep down in the bowels of the true Republican party", but there certainly are Republicans who can't wait to see the arse end of the monstrosity that has polluted our political landscape far too long. The Lincoln Project, Kelly Conway's ex and Lt. Gov. Geoff Duncan who spoke at the Dem's convention, saying ""If Republicans are being intellectually honest with ourselves, our party is not civil or conservative. It's chaotic and crazy. And the only thing left to do is dump Trump," Duncan said. "These days, our party acts more like a cult, a cult worshiping a felonous thug."

He said he was supporting Harris and stared into the camera to speak to his "Republican friends at home watching."

"If you vote for Kamala Harris in 2024 you're not a Democrat, you're a patriot," said Duncan, prompting chants of "USA! USA.!"

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 05:54 AM

Aaah, nice! Real people who are real patriots, trying to do the best for their country.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 08:28 AM

Ever curious, I would briefly change the channel on my TV to the Fox News site to see what they were doing.
It is interesting that they felt compelled to carry most of the DNC prime time stuff.... except when the speaker was particularly critical of Republicans in general and The Donald in particular. Still, this is the most I have ever seen of FOX actually broadcasting Democratic speakers extolling the virtues of Harris and comparing her to the alternative!
   Then, at the very end, after the balloons fell, the had Trump himself on by phone, repeating his usual diatribes about crowd size and lies about what he claims Kamala will do. The Fox hosts were visibly uncomfortable with his stream of BS and finally had to cut away for a commercial.
   I doubt that die-hard Fox viewers have ever heard more reasons to reconsider their vote.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 10:29 AM

Bill D, possibly the topic of another thread - but there is quite a family power struggle going on now amongst the Murdoch clan and who should run that media empire.

When I open Instagram on my phone these days it is about 90% political ads. I joined it originally to share non-political photos of the yard, garden, dogs, interesting local topics. I'm guessing some of that is still buried in there but the algorithms are working against me now. Most of the texts that arrive via phone are either scammers wanting to buy my house or are political volunteers wanting my money or to join their particular branch of the cause. Since they are unsolicited, they are a sent "Stop" and blocked. I participated in a prank against Trump a few years ago (when a Tik Tok group booked all of the seats at a New England event so that when they actually got there the place would be empty.) That unfortunately put me on a few GOP call lists, but they've thinned out considerably.

Lots of stuff comes via email (I have a folder and have set rules for those so they all go to one place where I usually never look at them). Organizations send stuff via the postal mail, some of them quite interesting.

In the next 74 days I imagine we will face an avalanche of communications. The money we donate is part of why that is possible. It is time for the Citizens United horrible decision from the Supreme Court to be overturned (via good legislation), to have the new voting rights act passed, and get a lot of this money out of politics.

Pardon me, I need to go order my Harris/Walz yard sign and t-shirt.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 10:44 AM

A particularly poignant moment at the DNC last night was the appearance of the The Central Park Five.
This was one of the most heinous chapters of Trump's miserable existence. It was probably when I first took notice of this racist monster.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 03:45 PM

Trump and other lowlife Republicans get schooled by VP Harris' charming grand nieces-
Comma la

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 05:01 PM

Kennedy has suspended his campaign and is offering his endorsement to Trump. He frustrated environmentalists and embarrassed his family. This parting shot will hopefully be the end of it. CNN coverage.

And the Gizmodo take on it: With Trump Endorsement, RFK Jr. Is Officially a Loser and Completely Full of Sh*t
As RFK's tortured political campaign came to an appropriately lame conclusion, Kennedy revealed himself to be a total phony.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 06:37 PM

Trump seems to be a magnet for whack-a-doodles.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 06:58 PM

Just as a matter of interest, are there any Mudcat members who admit to being Republican party supporters? (not necessarily Trump supporters). It doesn't seem so from all I have read here.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 23 Aug 24 - 08:18 PM

Doug, as an Aussie I can excuse myself from that question. LOL

If I lived in the US, I wouldn't support the Republicans in the form they are now in but I'd be more likely to lean towards the Democrats. However, the Trump circus has pushed everything into Whackadoodle Land so who knows what will happen after this year?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 24 - 05:26 AM

How will Kennedys leaving the race affect voters?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Aug 24 - 12:35 PM

Not a jot.

From The Atlantic (here):

But Donald Trump and Bobby Kennedy—as I’ve referred to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. since we met freshman year at Harvard—have always had many features in common as well. Both are entitled playboy sons of northeastern wealth; both (in Michelle Obama’s words) were “afforded the grace of failing forward” as misbehaving, underachieving adolescents admitted to Ivy League colleges thanks to “the affirmative action of generational wealth”; both were reckless lifelong adolescents, both attention-craving philanderers and liars, both jerks. And Kennedy’s hour-long speech today was nearly as meandering and filled with lies as any average hour of Trump.

From the Washington Post - RFK Jr., environmental warrior, backs the ‘drill, baby, drill’ ticket
As an activist and lawyer, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. spent decades battling for environmental protections that Trump has worked to undo.

Kennedy had promised to be “the best environmental president in American history.” For decades, as an attorney and celebrity activist, he urged more vigorous enforcement of federal regulations guaranteeing clean air and water.

Now he joins a campaign whose policies, according to critics, would scale back those regulations and weaken the agencies that uphold them.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Aug 24 - 03:29 PM

From Politico: Trump Is Now the ‘Old’ Candidate. It Might Matter.

It’s one of the most time-tested tools used on the campaign trail: the age diss. Yes, it’s mean-spirited, but over the decades, it’s proven to be an incredibly effective — and historically bipartisan — attack on a political opponent.

It’s a tactic used to render one’s competitor as hopelessly out of touch, unable to handle the mission at hand.

That’s a playbook former President Donald Trump leaned on heavily this campaign cycle, repeatedly dinging President Joe Biden for his advanced years and dubbing him “Sleepy Joe Biden.” In a viral leaked clip of Trump at Mar-A-Lago after the presidential debate in June, he took things further, calling Biden a “broken down pile of crap.”

Now, with Vice President Kamala Harris, 59, at the top of the Democratic ticket, the 78-year-old Trump has gone from being the attacker on age to the attackee. Should he win in November, he will be the oldest president to ever take office.

Suddenly, it is Trump’s age that’s the issue, not Biden’s.

At her rallies, Harris uses subtle age shade, telling crowds that Trump would “return America to a dark past” and called his comments on her race the “same old show.” Her running mate, Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz, 60, opts for a more direct diss. Trump, Walz says, is hopelessly “low energy,” “tired” and “needs to get a little rest on the weekends.”

As age politics become increasingly pertinent on the campaign trail, we’ve compiled the “greatest hits” in political memory of presidential matchups where candidates levied age-focused attacks.

Read more at the link.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Aug 24 - 07:44 PM

This is so rich, seeing the tables turned on "old" Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 24 - 03:15 PM

Kennedy has endorsed Trump, so presumably he thinks that by leaving he is helping Trump, of course he may be wrong ,but at the moment the situation is unclear

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Aug 24 - 01:35 PM

The presidential debate terms are under negotiation now. It seems that Team Trump wants the mics muted when it isn't their turn; Harris wants them on all of the time as they have traditionally been over the years.

Is this thing on? Harris and Trump battle over hot mics at debate.
Negotiations over the Sept. 10 spectacle have hit an impasse over whether to leave the microphones on.

In the June debate between Trump and Biden they were muted between turns to speak. There was also no audience. From Politico:

But Biden is no longer running for president. And Harris’ campaign wants the microphones to be hot at all times during the ABC debate — as has historically been the case at presidential debates.

“We have told ABC and other networks seeking to host a possible October debate that we believe both candidates’ mics should be live throughout the full broadcast,” Brian Fallon, the Harris campaign’s senior adviser for communications, tells POLITICO. “Our understanding is that Trump’s handlers prefer the muted microphone because they don’t think their candidate can act presidential for 90 minutes on his own. We suspect Trump’s team has not even told their boss about this dispute because it would be too embarrassing to admit they don’t think he can handle himself against Vice President Harris without the benefit of a mute button.”

Privately, the veep’s team believes that Harris can get Trump to lose his cool and say something impolitic on mic.

“She’s more than happy to have exchanges with him if he tries to interrupt her,” one person familiar with the negotiations tells Playbook. “And given how shook he seems by her, he’s very prone to having intemperate outbursts and … I think the campaign would want viewers to hear [that].”

The Trump team is continuing the insults and BS as they try to get their way.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 24 - 09:43 AM

I am reading more and more that Trump's mad outbursts are paving the way for a cry of foul play once he does lose the election (We hope!) The latest worrying piece of news is that there are 70+ election deniers in key positions in swing states.

Is this a realu worry and, if so, what is being done about ot?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Aug 24 - 11:01 AM

It is my understanding that they may try to slow things but will be challenged by higher authorities. In Georgia where the election board (supposedly non-partisan, and appointed, not elected) is making waves but the governor and attorney general will probably be able to dismantle that broken cog in the electoral wheel.

Their jobs to canvass elections are spelled out, they don't have the ability to actually toss votes or cancel elections without challenge and if they're not doing their largely ceremonial jobs states will most likely force their hands or set them aside. (Canvassing means to "thoroughly examine" or "scrutinize.")

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 24 - 11:17 AM

Thanks, Stilly.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Aug 24 - 09:27 PM

More commentary today about the threat of these rogue election officials - since the results they would be slowing would be local, chances are that other candidates on the ballot (down ballot from Trump or Harris) would sue if results were slowed. Local elections would put local candidates in office and if that is messed up, they're bound to sue.

Jack Smith has removed part of the case that the Supreme Court trashed and reissued the coup charges after running them past a new grand jury. The "superseding indictment" still packs a punch against Trump and his activities AS A CANDIDATE on January 6. He had no official duties, he was out there churning the crowd as part of his campaign. Trump charged in superseding indictment in election interference case following SCOTUS ruling
The new indictment adjusts the charges to the Supreme Court's immunity ruling.

"The superseding indictment, which was presented to a new grand jury that had not previously heard evidence in this case, reflects the Government's efforts to respect and implement the Supreme Court's holdings and remand instructions," a Justice Department spokesperson said Tuesday.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 24 - 03:42 AM

I'm astounded that anyone with partisan views, such as these election deniers, has been allowed anywhere near the voting process. Surely there must be a method to remove them before they can do any damage. If they have stated, against all known facts, that Trump won the last election their mental health can be called into question at least!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Aug 24 - 11:47 AM

The political opinions of people in non-partisan office are generally kept to themselves. The part of the population with MAGA views are working to infiltrate lower level offices thinking they can save the day for Trump, but rational individuals understand this means courts will have to force them to do their ceremonial jobs as appointed (or probably step down). The fact that they held those MAGA opinions may have impressed enough people to get them into those offices (we don't legislate against ideas, with the usual exceptions of harming others, shouting fire in theaters, etc.) but these are usually pockets of influence. Though it does puzzle me that enough people could agree that MAGA makes sense to re-elect people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz. A few of those other crackpots.

Meanwhile, there is an "unwritten" Justice Department rule about not bringing charges or cases against presidential candidates within 60 days of an election. Or even thinking about them - it is a widely held opinion that when James Comey announced that Hillary's aid's laptop turned up with more emails that they were going to look into it; there was an opinion shift that came with that, and when he announced just before the election that there was nothing to see there the harm was done. But Trump is different, he has been in and out of courts for a couple of years now and these current cases are moving forward. It will be interesting to see what happens after September 5, if there is a pull-back by the Justice Department. The AG was so disappointingly slow in getting that started (waiting until the January 6 investigation by Congress turned up all of the evidence) that if he were to slow the work that is finally happening he might find himself the focus of some pretty nasty memes by Democrats.

Finally, I heard an interview recently about why Trump appeals to the wide swath he does - many of them white men without college educations. If they're feeling a pinch in getting jobs or advancing in jobs or being able to afford the usual things in life - cars, houses, beer, they are tending to blame other citizens (Black, Hispanic, immigrants, and these days, women) or Biden or Obama or whoever they can instead of realizing that our problem here is the extreme consolidation of banks, grocery businesses, agricultural product businesses, hospitals, and Big Pharma. When all of those businesses become almost monopolies in their arenas they can raise prices, and instead of hiring they do stock buybacks (those used to be illegal) and other things to boost CEO pay and reward investors. Food, services, housing, drugs, medical care, they all become less affordable. Blaming immigrants or the Democrats instead of blaming big industry is what got us here. And until we can get industry and big money back out of politics (the Supreme Court decision that said corporations are "persons" and can voice opinions via unlimited donations is called "Citizens United.") Trump ignores his big business friends and has set about turning Americans against each other. Blame the Democrats, blame the liberals, blame anyone else except the billionaire class.

/end of US politics 101 for today/

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 24 - 12:15 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/aug/28/trump-blames-biden-harris-assassination-attempt
link from uk guardian newspaper

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Aug 24 - 12:49 PM

Meanwhile, Trump was trying to set up a photo-op that would show him respecting military fallen at Arlington National Cemetery, a federal site with very specific rules about conduct and photos:

“Federal law prohibits political campaign or election-related activities within Army National Military Cemeteries, to include photographers, content creators or any other persons attending for purposes, or in direct support of a partisan political candidate’s campaign,” the statement said, adding that “a report was filed” over the incident.

“Arlington National Cemetery reinforced and widely shared this law and its prohibitions with all participants,” the statement said.

The staffers were trying to video Trump laying a wreath in a ceremony for 13 US service members killed in a suicide bombing in Afghanistan.

In a statement, Arlington acknowledged one of its representatives became involved in the altercation with two Trump staffers, telling them that only cemetery representatives were allowed to take video and photographs in Section 60, an area where recent US casualties mostly from Iraq and Afghanistan are buried.

The Trump staffers pushed aside the cemetery official, who would be a civilian US Army employee, verbally abused them, and went ahead posing and taking photos like this and this video. In the video he was apparently speaking to the family of that fallen soldier, but the family can't give him access with private photographers to the grave.
So in his usual Trump style, the event is characterized as the employee being mentally disturbed and shouldn't have a job there.

“For a despicable individual to physically prevent President Trump’s team from accompanying him to this solemn event is a disgrace and does not deserve to represent the hallowed grounds of Arlington National Cemetery,”. . .

On a personal note, I was one of those public-facing park rangers many years ago when a local NY US congressman and a couple of friends rode out to Ellis Island on an Army Corps of Engineers tug (not a boat authorized to land at or transport people to the national park). The boat captain was the brother-in-law of the congressman. This was before Ellis restoration, when there was a lot of dangerous building decay and tours followed a set route with covered walkways and barriers; they walked all over the place and when I found them I tried to get them to return to their boat. They in turn patronized, insulted, and dismissed me; my supervisor heard of this and tagged along the rest of the time (so they wouldn't kill themselves) as they did what they wanted, asserting privilege based upon the congressman's status as an elected official. I was so pissed off that I wrote the Case-Incident report to include dialog - how rude they were, and how they suggested I should just go away and be a good little girl, that the Congressman had a right to do what he wanted. I was reading a lot of Steinbeck at the time so I quoted our conversation as dialog in the way he would have. Clear, and interesting to read.

The federal report forms documenting their trespass and abuse, written by me and by my supervisor and appended with a report from the Supt of the monument, moved up through NPS ranks and landed on a desk somewhere in Washington. In the end, the Corps of Engineers and the Congressman's office had to offer me a written apology. When you know your site, and you know the regulations, and when the misbehavior is challenged, it can come back to bite the offender in the ass. There's a reason for all of the federal regulations and the reports we had to file. On the bottom of my report I was allowed to state that I felt it was reprehensible for employees of another federal agency to behave that way on our site. The Arlington National Cemetery is run by the Army, and they're more strict about regulations than NPS. Trump's group could end up getting a citation or something out of this, if anyone bothers to follow-up.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Aug 24 - 12:57 PM

To quote Mandy Rice-Davies: Well he would, wouldn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Aug 24 - 01:03 PM

Oops: that was a reply to Sandman's link.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 28 Aug 24 - 06:36 PM

This thought just popped into my head. I'm probably not the first to make the connection but if Trump thinks he's a stable genius, maybe that makes him a horse's ass?

Trump - stable genius

I've been checking the polls and he has been behind Harris by a few points, his crowd sizes are a lot less, and the money in his donations fund are a lot less too. Cautious optimism, but I'm not getting the crystal ball out just yet.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 29 Aug 24 - 08:22 AM

Nice one, Helen; doubtless Herself will be spluttering into her plonque rouge. It's just a shame that the appropriate animal is the campaign symbol for the Democrats, or you'd have got the triple score.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 24 - 11:11 AM

Good read and analysis of what is going on with Trump's attempts to fix the results

The path to destroy American democracy runs through Georgia

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 24 - 11:55 AM

Trump can gaslight all he wants, but the bottom line on those positions that canvass elections is that they SHALL do the job. Not they "can if they want, or do whatever they want." It comes from much higher up than that Georgia board (and calling those two latest members "pitbulls" is an insult to pitbulls.) The results being contested by those folks will be local, and chances are good that other down-ballot elections will be perturbed enough by the delayed results that local lawsuits will result to get results released promptly. It is the job of each state's attorney general or other high-up election official to do the investigations, not that of the local zealots.

Trump is desperate and addled, that's all there is to it. His followers drank the Kool-aid (Flavor Aid was actually what was used at Jonestown) but may survive, though they may never recover their senses; admitting you were that wrong for that long is a difficult thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 29 Aug 24 - 03:08 PM

MaJoC, I thought the Democrat symbol was a donkey, but Trump is at the ass end spilling out all kinds of stuff which other people have to try to clean up.

His poor political strategists must be losing sleep over what he might do at the political debate whereas Harris and her crew are probably rubbing their hands with glee and planning how to use all that manure to grow productive crops.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 24 - 10:37 PM

Far be it my intention to tell people from another country who they should vote for.

But Donald Trump seems to be a very strange character, Did anyone else see the interview where he kept saying how intelligent he was?

Still apparently half the country want him as president.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 29 Aug 24 - 11:24 PM

Too add to what SRS said about Big Business raising prices, and instead of hiring they do stock buybacks (those used to be illegal) and other things to boost CEO pay and reward investors. The big achievement of the first year of the Trump administration was a massive tax cut, especially generous to the wealthy with corporate tax rates at an all-time low. Now you will notice that whenever Republicans want to push their corporate welfare agenda those rich arseholes become "Job Creators". Well it's a lie. At the end of Trumprule the GAO studied the effect of those corporate tax gifts and found that very little of that money was used to create jobs. It was used to pay down debt and buy back their stock.
It's always a rehashing of Reagan's trickle down economics which George H.W. Bush (the primary rival not the running mate) tagged as "Voodoo Economics" whenever they want another corporate handout. It's always a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 12:32 PM

Trump is trying to move his sentencing in the hush-money case to Federal court, to delay it until after the election. As the New York Times suggests, "it's a long shot."

Former President Donald J. Trump sought to move his Manhattan criminal case into federal court on Thursday, filing the unusual request three months after he was convicted in state court.

The long-shot bid marks Mr. Trump’s latest effort to stave off his sentencing in state court in his hush-money trial, in which he was convicted of falsifying records to cover up a sex scandal.

He is scheduled to receive his punishment on Sept. 18, just seven weeks before Election Day, when he will square off against Vice President Kamala Harris for the presidency.

“The ongoing proceedings will continue to cause direct and irreparable harm to President Trump — the leading candidate in the 2024 presidential election — and voters located far beyond Manhattan,” Mr. Trump’s lawyers, Todd Blanche and Emil Bove, wrote in the filing.

Well, guys, he ISN'T "President" Trump, he's ex- or former-president Trump, who has an inflated view of his own importance. He's scared of Harris, who appears to have moved ahead of him in most polls (but never trust them - the only one that counts is the voting booth). All hopes are on Marchan pronouncing a prison sentence in September.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 02:22 PM

Also, in the lawyers' filing that you quoted, "...President Trump — the leading candidate in the 2024 presidential election..." - well, that is not according to the polls I've been looking at e.g. The Hill & DDHQ but as you say, the only poll that matters is the election.

I watched a few snippets of the CNN interview with Harris and Walz, mostly on the Oz TV show Planet America Fireside Chat. One of the possible explanations proposed by John Barron for Harris' hesitation in conducting live interviews was that, being a Prosecutor she would be carefully weighing every word she utters in a courtroom context so she may be weighing everything she says in interviews as well. That makes a nice change from listening to Trump's out of control utterances.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 03:02 PM

I'm not worried that she hasn't done interviews - Trump just wants to make a case of anything he can think of. She's awfully busy being the vice president and simultaneously a political candidate setting up a new campaign under highly unusual circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 05:21 AM

Another really good piece from Raw Story

The real reason corporate media won't cover Trump's attacks on democracy

I don't know who they are but this makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 24 - 06:16 AM

I know we’re not supposed to use the ‘N’ word (no, not that ‘n’ word!) but, the more I read and hear, the more I’m reminded of 1930s Germany.

It’s terrifying.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 24 - 06:45 PM

Trump's puppets on the Sunday morning news shows tried to blame Biden and Harris - saying that they'd been invited to the family event at the cemetery also, and if they'd done their nation proud and attended this wouldn't have happened. You know how many events happen in the nation every day that they probably have to consider? And this is a tiny family thing. Trump decided to take advantage of it and his team still have political ads using the photos and video. They accuse Biden of sitting at the beach and Harris of just sitting in her mansion four miles away.

When they have no good policies or answers, they start name calling and slinging mud. That has been the pattern all along. They own that Arlington Cemetery debacle; I just hope the Army employee who they pushed aside stays out of harm's way as far as stalking and doxing.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 01:12 PM

SRS I believe that the fear of repercussions by the Trump mob is probably why she chose not to press charges. Because, after seeing the video, what happened to her absolutely fit the legal definition of assault.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 24 - 02:24 PM

Did you find a place to view that video? I haven't seen it appear anywhere. I agree - she is probably terrified of being the center of the Trump mob's attention. In this CNN report they read the statement released by the Army, supporting their employee at the event (while not mentioning Trump by name - but the meaning is clear.)

Also, a follow-up to the smear by Senator Cotton on Sunday, Biden and Harris were not invited to the event that he says they ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 12:09 PM

I don't know where to view it. It's not on Youtube and what I saw was a very short clip included in a video montage. It's even possible they used a similar clip from a different incident now that I think about it. And speaking of not showing up for commemoration ceremonies, Trump refused to go to the main D-day graveyard in Normandy because he said the dead were a bunch of suckers and losers.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 02:07 PM

Neil D, I am sure that the reason Trump or his political strategists thought it was a good idea to go to Arlington was to counteract the bad publicity from the suckers and losers comment. Unfortunately it rebounded on him and his campaign. He has a short memory- he spits out commentary and then forgets what he has said almost immediately - and he hopes his potential voters do too.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 03:40 PM

I check this page with polls fairly often. I posted the link on
Date: 30 Aug 24 - 02:22 PM.

Currently the summary of the polls shows that Trump is 45.4% and Harris is 49.4%, and this has been steady for a few days. Harris overtook Trump on 6 August.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 08:23 PM

Because of the electoral college and the way it favors smaller states (put in place by the slave-holding state to prevent the rest of the nation from getting rid of their ability to own slaves) the GOP always has an advantage (until we get rid of the electoral college!) so the Democrats have to be several points ahead to pull up even.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 24 - 10:51 PM

A federal judge today again denied the Trump team's request to move the activity on the hush money case to federal court.

From the AP: Federal judge rejects Donald Trump’s request to intervene in wake of hush money conviction

NEW YORK (AP) — A federal judge on Tuesday swiftly rejected Donald Trump’s request to intervene in his New York hush money criminal case, spurning the former president’s attempt at an end-run around the state court where he was convicted and is set to be sentenced in two weeks.

U.S. District Judge Alvin Hellerstein’s ruling — just hours after Trump’s lawyers asked him to weigh the move — upends the Republican presidential nominee’s plan to move the case to federal court so that he could seek to have his conviction overturned in the wake of the U.S. Supreme Court’s presidential immunity ruling.

Hellerstein, echoing his denial of Trump’s pretrial bid to move the case, said the defense failed to meet the high burden of proof for changing jurisdiction and that Trump’s conviction for falsifying business records involved his personal life, not official actions that the Supreme Court ruled are immune from prosecution.

In a four-page ruling, Hellerstein wrote that nothing about the high court’s July 1 ruling affected his previous conclusion that hush money payments at issue in Trump’s case “were private, unofficial acts, outside the bounds of executive authority.” (emphasis mine)

A bit further down in the article is information about the thing that many of us are on the lookout for - statements from the judge in the hush money case:

Merchan is expected to rule soon on two key defense requests: Trump’s call for the judge to delay his Sept. 18 sentencing until after the November election, and his request that the judge overturn his conviction and dismiss the case in the wake of the Supreme Court’s ruling.

Merchan has said he will rule Sept. 16 on Trump’s motion to overturn the verdict. His decision on delaying sentencing has been expected in the coming days.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 04 Sep 24 - 06:13 AM

Anthony Scaramucci says a second Donald Trump presidency would isolate the United States, leave NATO stranded and project 'cruelty'

The article is based on an interview on an Oz ABC TV show called 7.30. Scaramucci expresses a lot of opinions which I won't try to summarise. He also has an opinion on how Kamala Harris could be more successful by being more persuasive [he uses the term "aggressive"] with her political agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Sep 24 - 08:50 AM

Because of the electoral college and the way it favors smaller states (put in place by the slave-holding state to prevent the rest of the nation from getting rid of their ability to own slaves) the GOP always has an advantage

Correct me if I am wrong but surely the slave holding states overwhelmingly supported the Democratic party and the Republicans emerged to combat the spread of slavery into the western territories. If the Southern Democrats put in a system to maintain their advantage, then the Democratic party can't complain if the pendulum has swung the other way towards the GOP.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 24 - 12:28 PM

You would be wrong, because the parties of those names did a reverse-polarity thing back in the years after Lincoln. The party that put in the slave-holding parts of the constitution are now functioning as the GOP.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 04 Sep 24 - 12:49 PM

Any fixed-rule system can be gamed; and if the rules themselves are gamed, however laudable the reason, the system becomes even more fragile. Gödel's Undecidability Theorem doesn't just apply to mathematics (or maths's red-headed step-child, the computer).

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 24 - 02:03 PM

How is the sentencing delay going to affect things? Good or bad!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 24 - 05:25 PM

Damn damn damn. It makes it better for Trump, of course. Merchan really needed to sentence Trump to a prison sentence to make the point that he is a convicted felon.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 24 - 02:57 AM

What are the differences in foreign policies?a question not a statement

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Sep 24 - 06:55 AM

> Merchan really needed to sentence Trump to a prison
> sentence

When I heard about the delay, I had a flashback to when the head of the Wagner group stopped his march on Moscow. One comment at the time was: They've found his grandchildren.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Sep 24 - 12:23 PM

The presidential debate is coming up on Tuesday (Sept. 10), and as this new campaign with Harris replacing Biden is working at breakneck speed to do everything it needs to in the reduced time due to circumstances, the conservative media are howling that Kamala isn't making time for "The Press." They want to pepper her with stupid talking points from Trump to make his campaign ads with. They'll get lots of soundbytes on Tuesday.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 08 Sep 24 - 01:19 PM

I saw something on (Oz) ABC News about Trump's minions fiddling the electoral college system in Georgia. The article hasn't shown up yet on the ABC News site.

Will he get away with this?

I found this article about it:

How Georgia’s pro-Trump election board could help him steal an election

"At a rally in Georgia days before a crucial vote at the state’s election board, Donald Trump praised three of the board’s five members as 'pit bulls fighting for victory'.

“'I don’t know if you’ve heard, but the Georgia State Election Board is in a very positive way,” Trump said in Atlanta on August 3. “They’re on fire. They’re doing a great job.'

"Those members — Rick Jeffares, Janelle King and Janice Johnston — ultimately voted for sweeping rule changes to how counties can certify election rules in a state that the former president lost by narrow margins in 2020, and where he is now criminally charged for his attempts to reverse that loss.

"Election analysts predict the state could come down to even smaller vote margins in November, potentially inviting challenges from Trump-allied groups to do what Trump couldn’t in 2020, thanks to new, potentially illegal rules that could invite partisan investigations. The Democratic Party and a group of Georgia Democrats — with the support of Kamala Harris’s campaign — are now suing over the changes.

“'Everyone who cares about American democracy and who wants to make sure their vote counts should be alarmed,' Georgia Democratic Representative Sam Park told - The Independent."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 24 - 03:07 PM

Same story was discussed back on 27th of August

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Sep 24 - 11:41 AM

MaJoC I've spent the weekend thinking about what you said about perhaps they "found his grandchildren." I'm sure there is a great deal of that calculation going on behind the scenes. And the court decision is a lot bigger issue than the usual ones around here: I live in a state where in past years people were reluctant to put out Biden signs because of the Trump hooligans who might drive by and decide to shoot the sign, regardless of it being in front of a building permeable to bullets. I've seen a few Harris/Walz signs, and there will soon be a couple set up here. (I live in a "rock house" so maybe as long as they miss the windows we're ok?)

It looks like politics is going to have to settle this once and for all - defeating Trump at the ballot box, regardless of what he says about accepting the results, will end it. (I'd love to see him flee the country after this is all over.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Sep 24 - 11:47 AM

Tonight is the big event. I'm wondering what it would look like if I set up the closed captions and mute every time Trump opens his mouth. I can't stand to listen to his voice but the gibberish from his mouth might be . . . instructive.

There is a double-standard at play here. Trump is expected to lie, to talk over the top of Harris, to be a deranged fool. Harris must be perfect in every way.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 10 Sep 24 - 12:33 PM

Closed captions and mute - that's a great idea. I can't stand to listen to him either.

I'm hoping, with all fingers and toes crossed, that Harris presents some solid policy statements and really pushes the important policies e.g. economics, abortion and women's issues and rights, etc but also that she wipes the floor with him using her arsenal of prosecutorial skills.

She has been consistently ahead in the polls for most states by a few percentage points but she really needs to push forward at least another few points and hold that position so that she can't be beaten by the electoral college.

[You don't know how polite I have been about the US electoral system, especially the electoral college as opposed to "one person one vote", the lack of compulsory voting, and electing a president instead of voting in a political party by a majority of successful candidates. I could really cut loose on all of that, but I have been restraining myself for the sake of maintaining international relations in Mudcatland. :-) Instead I am projecting good thoughts and lots of hope for this election.]

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Sep 24 - 12:47 PM

I agree with most of those topics, Helen. I don't think you'd want the party election of the president here, we don't have the same kind of prime minister setup you do.

Fingers crossed, as you say, and trying not to borrow trouble. The debate will be what it is, and we'll move forward.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 10 Sep 24 - 12:56 PM

I have a couple of images in my head of how I hope it plays out: a cat playing cat-and-mouse, letting the mouse think it is getting away and then quietly pouncing to keep playing with it; and what I call sheep-dogging. That is when a person quietly and determinedly rounds up the other person, no fuss, no bother, just pushing him into the sheep pen before he knows what is happening to him.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Sep 24 - 06:40 PM

I'll keep an eye on this via MSNBC and see what the liberal inteligencia goddess Rachel Maddow has to say about it.

We're a couple of hours away. Time for dinner, then setting up the TV in the den to watch (or read) the big event.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Sep 24 - 09:47 PM

There should be a drinking game to play with the "debate" this evening but Trump is so predictable we'd all be sloshed.

He's dreadful. Lies lies lies lies, about himself and her. And muting the mics doesn't seem to be working, he's still talking and interrupting the moderators and Harris.

Bleh. I tried turning on the CC setting but it wasn't working on the channels I tested.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 12:59 AM

I haven't watched the debate yet, but I've heard some of the commentary from Oz ABC journalists. I might not manage to watch the whole debate, depending on how sick to my stomach Trump makes me, but I'll give it a go.

However, Taylor Swift has now said she will vote for Harris, and is encouraging her fans to register to vote, while - importantly - not telling them how they should vote.

Taylor Swift endorses Kamala Harris following first presidential debate with Donald Trump

I'm hoping that just motivating her fans to register to vote may sway the election outcome. Encouraging people to vote can only be a good thing, surely, but given that most of Swift's fans are young and female her influence may prove to be important.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 03:49 AM

Kamala Harris has a VERY expressive face, and a million-dollar smile. Although she was not allowed to talk while Trump was talking, her expressions said so much. I'd say her performance during the debate was near-perfect.

Trump just scowled. And babbled. And repeated himself.

I covered my dog's ears when Trump was talking about people in Ohio eating pets. Say, doesn't Vance come from Ohio?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 05:01 AM

I recorded the debate and I'm halfway through watching it. My recorder has a function where I can fast forward by one click and they just speak very fast but they can be understood. It saves me having to listen to Trump turn every single topic of discussion into his badgering about immigration, so even when Kamala Harris directly confronted him about his actions leading to the Capitol riot on Jan 6 he twists his reply into another barb about immigration.

You're right, Joe. Kamala Harris's facial expressions, gestures, bemused looks, and great big open smile are absolutely priceless and so far her comments on abortion and women's right to make their own health decisions, and about Jan 6, and Trump's legal battles have been right on the money.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 09:37 AM

It was educational, the ex-prez informed us that they're executing infants in West Virginia. He's just preaching to his whack job choir with ludicrous statements like that and alienating most rational folks, I would guess.
One obvious takeaway for me was that elevating VP Harris to the top of the ticket was absolutely the right decision, as much as I admire President Biden.
I wish Taylor Swift would have chosen another moment to endorse Harris, it kind of got lost in the post-debate wash and the 911 rememberances.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 10:23 AM

I'm with you, Helen and Gilly. Although I am rather bemused by the idea that people's votes might be influenced by a moderately pretty, moderately-talented singer of moderately interesting pop songs. But hey, anything that buggers-up the Trumper-mob sounds good AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 10:38 AM

I'm also not a fan of Swift's music, I suppose she's not trying to appeal to my demographic, but we need to take down that monster by whatever means possible and I'm grateful to her.
Btw, she signed her eloquent endorsement tweet, "Childless Cat Lady".

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 01:06 PM

I'll have to disagree with the two of you. Just after the debate had ended Swift launched her endorsement, and will have caught the attention of millions of young fans and their parents. I think her middle paragraph speaks to the timing:

Recently I was made aware that AI of ‘me’ falsely endorsing Donald Trump’s presidential run was posted to his site. It really conjured up my fears around AI, and the dangers of spreading misinformation. It brought me to the conclusion that I need to be very transparent about my actual plans for this election as a voter. The simplest way to combat misinformation is with the truth.

In order to let her fans have accurate information, so they're not seeing her tangled in confusing AI versions in the future, launching this endorsement now trumps (!) any GOP application of fake endorsements. It is crystal clear. And love or hate her music, she is a principled young woman with great influence who is trying to make a difference. She's the one who donates hugely to food banks in any community where she performs, who pays her entire staff and road crew well, and who makes a lot of charitable donations based upon circumstances she encounters.

Harris got his goat - in particular when she invited people to attend one of his rallies. Jon Stewart (The Daily Show) got the screen shot when she scored a direct hit on his ego and he said he had to "clarify" and talk about his events, and then, bizarrely, about dogs being eaten by immigrants in Ohio. He's a lunatic.

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 03:00 PM

Thanks for the extra info about Taylor Swift, Stilly.

I think her timing was perfect and her influence, especially on young women, will be crucial. As I said before, she acted ethically by not telling her fans who to vote for but just encouraging them to vote.

I will watch the rest of the debate today but Trump drew the short straw by having to debate on ABC America. :-D

They fact-checked him on his outrageous claims and were firm but fair in moderating the debate.

When I watch and listen to Trump my overwhelming thought is that his prime motivation is to stay out of jail.

I also think he "fact" checked Harris on how much he inherited from his father. According to him, he didn't inherit $400 million, but only a "fraction" of that. What, 5%, 55%, 99.9%? Over 100%? Any middle American or working class American who inherited even 5% would have life-changing outcomes.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 04:04 PM

I was watching an interview with several undecided voters, and one young woman said when she was explaining why she was probably supporting Trump, "I just don't think she has actual ideas that will make things better."
   This is typical for Republicans to denigrate Democratic ideas. They just throw out generalized complaints and seldom mention any specifics. I guess they learned this from Trump.
When I listen to interviews with most "progressive" politicians, they usually explain why they hold that particular view. On Fox news, they do the usual ambiguous accusations, and then make sarcastic and irrelevant remarks about liberal viewpoints.
   I wonder where that young woman has been that she has totally missed Harris's ideas and explanations.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 04:43 PM

My key thought again while watching the debate is: underestimate her at your peril, Trump!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 06:17 PM

It's treacherous for a campaign when people begin to see their candidate as the frontrunner - because the thought of "they don't need my vote" can come along if there are hurdles to voting, such as getting registered, getting an absentee ballot, or getting to the polls (especially if there is weather involved). It's so important for people to do what they can to vote early if it is available, then sit back and watch the results. Keep in mind, the only "poll" that is important is the voting booth.

It's best for Harris/Walz to maintain an underdog stance.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 07:05 PM

Yep. It ain't over till the fat orange defeated jailbird sings.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 04:22 AM

Bill D, Please tell us Harris ideas?is she going to cut defence spending?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 04:43 AM

It's treacherous for a campaign when people begin to see their candidate as the frontrunner - because the thought of "they don't need my vote" can come along if there are hurdles to voting, ...

On the other side, there is the thought that 'If I vote for the loser, then my vote will have been wasted'. If people are told often enough that a candidate can't win, even when it's not true, then the chances are that they won't win.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 08:59 AM

Well, Sandman... her policies are thoroughly documented and available. If you want details, YOU do the searches. It's not my job to make lists for you that you would no doubt dismiss.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 09:48 AM

I can't help but think that Swift's endorsement would have made a bigger splash if she'd done it during a less crowded news cycle, it just didn't get the coverage on yesterday morning's news programs that it deserved with all that was going on. That said, it was her's to make and I'm glad she made it.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 11:12 AM

Here in the UK some media outlets reported that Harris ignored questions about her various changes of policy.

From the Politico website:

'I don’t know if she will regret it, but Harris still left some unanswered questions about positions she’s changed over the years. Trump brought it up over and over, she was asked directly about some of those from Linsey Davis and the folks who still have questions are left with “my values haven’t changed.”'

I did not see the debate myself.

Talk is that this election will rest on the outcome of a small number of votes in swing states. Like a lot of others I am hoping that Trump does not win.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 12:07 PM

gillymor, Swift's announcement was on her social media page so her gazillions of fans would have seen it very quickly. I think it was good that she jumped in straight away. Her endorsement was immediate.

Trump's vow to end the war in Ukraine means, in fact, that he will suck up to Putin and let him take over Ukraine in whatever dastardly way he chooses. It's not a positive promise but a threat. I still see in my mind's eye the contemptuous smirk Putin had on his face when he met Trump, presumably because he knew how easily he could manipulate him.

Rain Dog, the problem with the debate format is the time limit, and the pressure to choose the most important statements which can be said most succinctly and with the most impact. I think that if Harris does some media interviews she will have a better chance to explain her policies in more depth. I hope she does do some interviews, but wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 12:34 PM

Depends on what "end the war in Ukraine" means.
Does Ukraine get its territory back and a guarantee that the Russians will not invade again, plus reparation for rebuilding all that's been destroyed? That would be an end. But giving a bit here and a bit there - that's just rewarding invaders.
I dunno; the American Republican party just seems to have got… odd.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 03:17 PM

Doug Chadwick:

The Democratic Party is I think the oldest continuously 'maintained' party in the United States. It was originally titled the "Democratic-Republican" party (not sure about the hyphen). In the early part of the 19th Century there were other strong parties, I believe there was a Whig Party and there several siginficant party developments that rose and faded. One of them was an anti-Immigrant party that was unoffically called The KNow Nothings, which has some resonance today in the TRMP folder.

The Republican party that we know today (sort of) was established in the latter half of the nineteenth century specifically to foster abolition and its first nominee for President was Abraham Lincoln. The Democratic Party split between Nor th and South during the Civil War. After the War it became a hodge podge which I cannot quantify, but in the mid 20th Century it underwent a large dos-i-do, by which I mean a circular dance, with the Republicans. It took a couple of generations because Democrats had a reliable vote for decades, called the 'Solid South'. If you follow American politics of this era, remember that Theodore 'Teddy' Roosevelt, was a liberal in many matters, and a Republican. His distant cousin Frankline Roosevelt, was a Democrat, and definitely a liberal of his era. He was considered a radical by many of the big bnusinessmen of his time. In racial matters, the WW2 era of Democrats were sort of split, with many in power gradually or in the case of FDR's wife Eleonor, less gradually, using their personal and politcal power to advance the causes of social agendas and racial progress. And after FDR's sudden death, his Vice President who became President, Harry Truman, de-segregating parts are all of the U.S. Military. Lydon Johnson made it a great part of his administration to advance the cause of multi-culturalism both in race issues and immigration issues. By the late 1960s, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party had done a major 'switcheroo'.

It is important to mention that a further change has occurred post Reagan where the Republicans have gone further to the right then ever. Prior to Reagan, you could get significant adherence to liberal ideas without embarassment from such well known Republican leaders as members of the Rockefeller family and New York Mayor Lindsay. President Richard Nixon was the originator of American's China policy and the Environmental Protection Agency was created under his administration.

There are still significant developments that occur as a result of cross party cooperation. When I was in the engineering business I learned of significant legislation that had been happening over the pat decades to result in major changes to diesel generator pollution improvements which were well thought out and are even now improving our atomosphere.

If you are not familiar with American Politics this might be unknown to you, and many Americans are that ignorant. Occasionally Republicans of this day refer to themselves as "The Party of Lincoln" but in my ears there is always a derisive laugh at that line. It doesn't happen that often now, becuase many of them, particularly the TRMP induced ignaramuses of this era, don't know their own proper history and would prefer to brag on Ronald Reagan anyway.

The reality is more interesting, hopeful, complicated, and yet extremely ridiculous. . .

Hope this clears things up a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 04:18 PM

Donald Trump on his Truth Social account is now stating
There Will Be No Third Debate.

That's third for Trump, second for Harris, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 04:26 PM

He's not as dumb as I thought he was.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 04:30 PM

On an Oz TV show called Planet America, one of the people interviewed said that the image he expects will go viral from the debate is Trump's sweaty upper lip. I'm not sure whether it was the same man who said that Harris was cleverly throwing "shiny things" towards Trump which he found impossible to ignore, i.e. baiting him to respond in his usual, predictable ways.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Sep 24 - 08:04 PM

I just pulled up Google News for the US and the third story (behind Hurricane Francine hitting Louisiana and the North Dakota abortion ban being overturned) is news that Harris is making a play for North Carolina votes and Trump is shoring up support in Arizona, where he lost by a fairly narrow margin last time. There's plenty of infighting going on in the GOP right now as various influencers vie for his attention or to cut out others. The basic deal is that whoever Trump last listened to is the one he quotes if he is asked a question.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 24 - 02:39 AM

I am not a fan of Trump, however I think the Presenters showed lack of impartiality.
Trump made a vastly exaggerated and geographically incorrect statement about eating pets, when it appears to have been an isolated case of pet abuse, that sort of remark only backfires on him.
Harris came over as a bit smirky and smarmy.The whole debate was a bit of a waste of everyones time.Trump of course played the anti immigrant card

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Sep 24 - 05:34 AM

VP Harris' facial expressions and body language on split screen were priceless. She was reacting to his exaggerations, inanities and outright lies in real time the way I do and I suppose the way a lot of other folks do as well.

I don't think I've ever heard a Presidential candidate on a debate stage utter something as vile and shabby as when Trump, in response to a query on a remark he made to a black audience in July, said this-
“All I can say is I read where she was not Black, that she put out — I’ll say that. And then I read that she was Black and that’s okay,” he said of Harris, who is Black and Indian. “Either one was okay with me. That’s up to her.”

The race-baiting was one thing but,
"that she put out". How very presidential.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Sep 24 - 07:06 AM

Thanks for the explanation robomatic.

The complaint was that the electoral college favours the smaller states and gives the Republicans an advantage. My point was that, whatever their politics now, it was the Dems who put the system in place when it suited them. I think that the electoral college is a very poor, undemocratic way of electing a President but the Dems can't complain if the system they favoured has come back to bite them now that they have swung to the opposite political position.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Sep 24 - 09:55 AM

Why oh why do people in the Meeja insist on politicians being monomaniacs? Changing one's mind in the light of changing circumstances shows open-mindedness and humility .... oh: methinks I've just answered myself.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Sep 24 - 10:11 AM

> [Trump]'s not as dumb as I thought he was.

It took a day or two, which to me suggests it took that long for him to be reprogrammed.

Oh, and further thanks to robomatic for the historical background. I'll give it time to properly sink in, lest I shoot off my mouth* from the hip.

* Cursor?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 24 - 01:02 PM

"... it was the Dems who put the system in place when it suited them."

That was when the "Dems" were like the Repubs now. The electoral college was blatantly a racist vehicle when it was created in order to increase population counts for southern states.
"The Electoral College was officially selected as the means of electing president towards the end of the Constitutional Convention due to pressure from slave states wanting to increase their voting power (since they could count slaves as 3/5 of a person when allocating electors) and by small states who increased their power due to the minimum of three electors per state"

Now it serves no purpose except to keep the south with more power than their actual votes. Trump was elected even with fewer total votes nationally... and only by a few thousand in several states.

   Since it is still in the Constitution, it would be almost impossible in today's divisive world to repeal it. We STILL have a situation where it is possible to lose the election while still winning a good majority of national votes. That's what States Rights gives us... bah!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 24 - 04:42 PM

same As uk unless you have PR

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 24 - 05:11 PM

The UK have nothing remotely resembling the electoral college. First psst the post does have flaws but at least each vote counts the same.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Sep 24 - 08:07 PM

Robert Reich was the Secretary of Labor in the Clinton administration, and like Clinton, is a polished and expert explainer. The First Step to Fixing the Electoral College is an article topic he as been talking about for a while. It involves the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, that would defer to the popular vote in each state.

Here's a video from his Twitter (X) feed that describes it if you don't want to read about it.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 01:58 AM

The first step in fixing the Electoral College is getting rid of it. Because of it, the last 2 Republican presidents lost the popular vote. In a sane country that would have been a loss. And both of those presidents were a disaster for our country. Republicans haven't won a popular vote since 1988 and yet controlled the White House for 20 of those 36 years. Tell me how that is fair.
Some of our British friends still seem a bit confused about the sea change that happened in American politics, how the party of Lincoln became the one embraced by Southerners and other racists. Let's start with Eleanor Roosevelt the most activist first lady of them all, who did whatever she could to help the black community. To quote fictional TV redneck Archie Bunker: "We didn't even know the blacks were there till Eleanor Roosevelt went and found them". Some historians credit William Jennings Bryant, Three-time candidate for President who around 1900 advocated for government to play a role in defending equal rights. But as late as 1920 we had a Democratic president who was a white southern racist. Flash forward to Roosevelt's successor Harry Truman who desegregated the military by executive order (meaning he knew he would never get the votes in congress but as Commander-in-Chief he had enough control over the military to do it without support of congress). This split the party with the southerners setting themselves up as Dixiecrats and running their own candidate, Strom Thurmond, in the 1948 election. Thurmon lost to Truman but he got a million votes. After that election most of the Dixiecrats returned to the Democratic fold until the mid 60s. In 64 and 65 Democratic president Lyndon B Johnson signed into law the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act aimed at bringing minority voters into the body politic. This was kind of the last straw for the South and Johnson, himself a southerner said after signing the CRA,
“I think we just delivered the South to the Republican party for a long time to come.” And sure enough, in the very next national election Nixon's Republican Party developed their "Southern Strategy" by supporting Southern causes like segregation, state's rights and "Law and order". Critics called it "dog whistle politics" but it worked and Republicans have exploited this divisive strategy every since then. During this time the party became not only more racist but more right wing as well. And that brings us to now when a megalomaniac
is employing the southern strategy on steroids, bent on tearing our country apart.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Neil D
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 02:14 AM

I should have specified in my previous post that Bryant, the Roosevelts, Tuman and Johnson were all Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 08:57 AM

I read the bit about the "National Popular Vote Interstate Compact".

I won't hold my breath because it also involves getting states to agree to something almost as hard as a Constitutional Amendment.

"Together, states in the compact have 195 electoral votes. So we just need a few more states with at least 75 electors to join the compact and it’s done."
Right.."Naturally, this plan will face legal challenges. There are a lot of powerful interests who stand to benefit by maintaining the current system."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 12:55 PM

Bill D, doing something is better than doing nothing.

Meanwhile, the newscycle churns on and since I last posted conspiracy theorist extraordinaire Laura Loomer has become an item - so toxic that original Trump-supporting bigots Senator Lindsey Graham and Marjorie Taylor Greene pronounced her a bigot. She seems to be traveling in the Trump entourage at the moment, including to the 9/11 ceremonies in New York City on Wednesday. Among other conspiracies, Loomer claims 9/11 was an "inside job."

I noticed a post on Threads this morning that suggests (based on a photo of Trump and Loomer standing in close physical contact) that "they're a couple." Bill Maher made the suggestion recently (along with posting a photo of the pair standing so close that her right boob rests on his left arm). The Daily Beast has an article that says Trump met with Loomer last year but his campaign co-manager Susie Wiles "made a point of sitting in so that she could nix the hiring." The have a different close-proximity photo of the pair. PoliticusUSA suggests that Bill Maher has intentionally started this conspiracy theory about Trump and Loomer to punk Loomer.

This from the New York Times: Who Is Laura Loomer, the Far-Right Activist Who Traveled With Trump?
After fellow Republicans criticized her appearance on the trail, noting her history of offensive remarks, former President Donald J. Trump praised her but later said he disagreed with some of her statements.

Ms. Loomer, 31, part of a generation of web-savvy right-wing influencers, decided to trademark the term she had coined for her signature move of ambushing people with unexpected, often embarrassing questions. She called it getting “Loomered.”

Already a well-known figure among internet obsessives thanks to her anti-Muslim activism, undercover sting operations and web-savvy political stunts, Ms. Loomer found herself at the center of the presidential campaign this week when she traveled with former President Donald J. Trump. She went with him to Philadelphia for the presidential debate, and then accompanied him to Sept. 11 memorial events in New York City and Shanksville, Pa., which drew pointed criticism from Democrats and Republicans because she had previously called Sept. 11 “an inside job.”

The Times and other big news outlets won't touch the affair suggestion, which is probably just as well. The closest you'll find in the Times is that Loomer "accompanied" Trump to the debate and the NYC event.

That said, in the past when affairs had an impact on politics, Democratic Senator Gary Hart tanked his presidential chances by having an affair (the fool challenged the press to prove anything and they did.) And Democrat John Edwards did something similar. Teflon Don once again seems to defy the community standards regarding how his relationships are represented. Whatever they are (well, except of course Stormy Daniels hit him in the courtroom, as did E. Jean Carroll.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 01:15 PM

Give him enough rope...

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 02:29 PM

The best comment I’ve seen about the TV debate is, “She was like a childless cat-woman with a laser-pointer, and he chased the dot the whole night!”.

Magic!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 03:10 PM

Apparently Trump will say anything and associate with any sort of lunatic in his desperate plight to stay out of prison. This ride is going to get a whole lot rougher.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 03:11 PM

Regarding the chasing the laser pointer, I re-watched the Oz TV show Planet America to find the two quotes I mentioned previously.

Brett Doster, a Republican Political Strategist was interviewed. A couple of quotes from him (which I took down so they are not necessarily word-for-word accurate):

"...Harris was talking policy, then she would have this kind of drive-by attack on Trump to goad him into something about something he is sensitive about so that when it was his turn for rebuttal he was drawn into talking about rally sizes, not about the policy thing'"

Doster also said, "I thought that Harris did get [Trump] sidetracked a number of times ... [ e.g. rally sizes and people staying or leaving] ... Trump does want to chase the shiny objects. She laid some tidbits out for him." He said Trump missed some opportunities and he did need to be a bit stronger with her.

The other person interviewed on the show was Steve Maviglio, a Democratic Political Consultant, who referred to Trump's sweaty upper lip when asked what the social media meme image would be from the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 03:20 PM

I forgot to say that Laura Loomer was also mentioned in passing on the same show and my first thought was that she will be the mother of his next offspring.

An (Oz) ABC news article:

Who is Laura Loomer the far-right activist Republicans fear is influencing Donald Trump with 'garbage' tactics?

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 03:35 PM

”I forgot to say that Laura Loomer was also mentioned in passing on the same show and my first thought was that she will be the mother of his next offspring.”

I can’t imagine what kind of woman could bear to even think of allowing herself to be mauled by that utterly repulsive specimen. Absolutely vomit-inducing.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 14 Sep 24 - 04:27 PM

I've said before that Trump doesn't smile, but take a look at the third photo on that news article page on (Oz) ABC. He has a big, satisfied smile there. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 24 - 05:36 AM

Are they going to race?

All I know is - never bet on the white guy.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Sep 24 - 05:50 AM

Seems to me that Kamala Harris won't win by being seen as a clever-clogs. She'll win, if she does, by explaining simply an ongoing plan for a decent, liveable life for ordinary people, starting on the day she's elected president and has the actual power to implement it, rather than just signing off on her boss's decisions as when vice-president.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 24 - 06:05 AM

It will be difficult for her not to look clever when she is compared to Trump!

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 24 - 08:41 AM

He simply keeps around him those people, no matter how crazy, who agree with him and/or play to his ego.
   Laura Loomer is gonna be one more albatross.

She worries his allies.

I and a few others have said for a long time that he doesn't care about "being president". He is running to stay out of prison. When he had 4 years, he seldom read briefings and delegated the work to underlings.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 24 - 12:24 PM

The White House staff routinely used a process of delaying any time he made some hair-brained request. He generally forgot, or some other shiny object caught his eye. Otherwise they would have to talk him out of it (very persuasively and flattering about it).

You may have to click past a paywall or a cookie query, but this Vox article about the "Goldwater Rule" is interesting. This is extracted from the 2017 piece:

Fact magazine called this “the most intensive character analysis ever made of a living human being.” What it was: a complete embarrassment to the field of psychiatry and the beginning of the end for Fact. After his election loss, Goldwater successfully sued the magazine for libel; the $75,000 settlement put the small publication out of business.

And the episode compelled the APA’s ethics committee to ban its members from making future diagnoses about public figures in the press.

It only applies to card-carrying APA psychiatrists. It doesn’t apply to psychologists, social workers, or New York Times columnist David Brooks. In February, a psychologist told me with deadly seriousness, “This is the worst case I have seen in my career,” regarding Trump and a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder.

So while claims about the president’s mental health have been made by just about every other group of person on earth, psychiatrists are discouraged from jumping in, even to correct the record.

Trump's niece is a psychologist, so isn't bound by this restriction in sharing her observations about her uncle Donald.

There's a short video that pops up on Instagram occasionally with a few well-regarded psychiatrists and psychoanalysts who have decided to disregard the Goldwater Rule for the protection of the country and pronounce Trump unfit. If I see it again I'll grab a link and share it.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 15 Sep 24 - 01:59 PM

Thanks for the link, Bill D.

I have been wondering for a while whether the genuine Republican party strategists are hoping Trump loses this election, to get rid of him from the party and get it back on track. Letting Laura Loomer into the inner circle might be part of that strategy. As stated in that article, Trump risks losing two key states by aligning himself with her racist and whacky, conspiracy theory attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 24 - 10:58 AM

A man stepped up to the perimeter fence at Trump's golf course in Florida and when Secret Service spotted the end of a rifle poking through the cyclone fencing they shot at it. They guy escaped, was detected (via a phone photo someone took at the time) and captured on the highway shortly after. Associated Press updated story. We don't know if that man, who is apparently from Hawaii, got off any shots or only Trump's security team did. He's alive so there will no doubt be a story to tell one of these days.

Security folks try not to close down every venue visited by candidates but they do vet them and have a presence. Since the Pennsylvania shooting there have been bulletproof glass barriers in front of both Trump and Harris when they speak. If you have a candidate who does the same thing over and over that pretty well makes it predictable that (for example) you might find him at one of his golf courses. That applies to harming him or protecting him, so it is frankly surprising that someone once again got this close.

Regardless of what a cretin Trump is, we don't resolve our presidential elections with a bullet. He needs to survive this so he can go to prison (at which time they will be sure he's so well protected there won't be a fellow inmate with a shank to do him in.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 24 - 02:14 PM

I’m seeing suggestions that this latest ‘assassination attempt’ was no such thing, that it was staged to try to draw attention away from Agent Orange’s disastrous ‘cat and laser pointer’ performance in the TV debate, and get sympathy from voters. I try not to be drawn in to conspiracy-theories, but this one sounds distinctly possible AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 16 Sep 24 - 02:41 PM

I saw a brief excerpt of comments by a Security chief (I think) who said that as a former President, Trump had a limited security detail but if they were protecting a current President the whole perimeter would have been guarded.

This article has just appeared and will be updated:

Donald Trump's alleged would-be assassin appears in Florida court on gun charges

I don't think the guy had a chance to fire because the Security guys saw the rifle barrel and fired off some shots and then chased him in his car and caught him.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Helen
Date: 16 Sep 24 - 02:51 PM

Donald Trump under lesser security on golf course during second apparent assassination attempt because 'he's not the sitting president'

"Donald Trump will likely be under an increased security detail next time he visits his Florida golf course, after Secret Service agents were forced to intercept a second apparent assassination attempt on the property's perimeter.

"Palm Beach County Sheriff Ric Bradshaw said Mr Trump's status as a former president meant his security detail was limited, compared to what it would have been during his presidency."

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 24 - 03:48 PM

The guy was hanging out in that spot for over 12 hours. The New York Times reporter apparently interviewed Routh in 2023 via a referral from a friend of his in Kabul. Routh spent time in Ukraine:

Mr. Routh, who had spent some time in Ukraine trying to raise support for the war, was seeking recruits from among Afghan soldiers who fled the Taliban. And so the former Afghan soldier reckoned Mr. Routh could get him to the Ukrainian front. (Anything, even war, was better than the conditions in Iran for Afghans after the Taliban retook Kabul in August of 2021.)

There were a few complications. Mr. Routh, a former construction worker from Greensboro, N. C., said he never fought in Ukraine himself — he was too old and had no military experience.

But like many foreign volunteers who showed up at Ukraine’s border in the war’s early months, he was eager to cast aside his former life for something far more exciting and make a name for himself.

“In my opinion everyone should be there supporting the Ukrainians,” he told me, his voice urgent, exasperated and a little suspicious over the phone.

The reporter says that "By the time I got off the phone with Mr. Routh some minutes later, it was clear he was in way over his head." It sounds like he is politely not saying that Mr. Routh is out of his mind.

My conjecture here is that he's angry that Trump would throw Ukraine to the Russians if he were elected.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 24 - 04:31 PM

I’m seeing suggestions that this latest ‘assassination attempt’ was no such thing, that it was staged to try to draw attention away from Agent Orange’s disastrous ‘cat and laser pointer’ performance in the TV debate, quote
What, suggestions>? there was an assassination attempt   a second one

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 24 - 04:42 PM

Of course there were **suggestions** about conspiracies. That's a common way Trumpites try to muddy the investigation waters.

Subject: RE: BS: American Presidential race 2024
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 24 - 05:02 PM

This guy was one-man conspiracy.

Urged Iran to kill Trump