BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:49 PM

Exactly who are the Christians persecuting now?

The big 3 have been hating each other for a long time.

I bet if Christ were alive today,
he would enjoy the Vatican.
He would invite the squalid poor to live in the Vatican
and Christ would be cruxified all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:38 AM

Sorry Penny.
It was worthy of repeating though, wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:40 AM

""and even i think, buddhist locations.
at least medics in the west could only lose their jobs and not their lives for not compromising their faith.best wishes""

Buddhist locations?

I'd like to see some evidence of Buddhist fundamentalism, given that their whole religion is based on respect for all life forms, and they won't even step on an ant.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:59 AM

they won't even step on an ant That's the Jains, who are Hindus.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:09 AM

Buddhists too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:15 AM

"Doctors can only lose their job"

I suppose comparing to being put to death for not believing, it is a bit tame.

However, there is no clash in being a doctor and having faith. The clash is using your faith in your professional capacity. Most doctors in The UK who profess a faith are Muslims, and interpret, as per The Q'ran I am told, that many lifestyle taboos are not relevant where and when practicing healthcare. Especially the gender familiarity restrictions. Likewise for the many Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist doctors.

Like it or lump it, the times it is an issue is with Christians, usually of the born again variety. I have many church going friends but I note it is the ones who rediscovered their faith who seem to think everybody else might be interested in their hobby.

Persecution, as this thread tries to focus on, is a two way street. Every time I read of a cleric who put's the rules of his church on either the same level or a higher level than the laws of the land, I question his or her abuse of the trust many people install in him or her. Every time I note the Synod is having problems coming to terms with equality laws, I question their right to operate as a corporate structure under UK law.

Nothing in my concerns is about or reflects on the individual right to believe in a faith system or to set your own moral compass by it. I shudder at the thought of persecuting Christians, but see the need to scrutinise Christian structures where the democratic process, (or Parliamentary sovereignty) is ignored. The only losers can be those who try to inflict their beliefs on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:33 AM

"Buddhists too"

Not really...read "The Nature of Existence and The Reality of Suffering" on this page.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/jainism/buddhismvsjainism.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:50 AM

But surely it is good to kill sometimes. To kill disease-spreading insects, for example, or someone who is going to kill you?


It might be good for you but what about that thing or that person? They wish to live just as you do. When you decide to kill a disease-spreading insect, your intention is perhaps a mixture of self-concern (good) and revulsion (bad). The act will benefit yourself (good) but obviously it will not benefit that creature (bad). So at times it may be necessary to kill but it is never wholly good.


You Buddhists are too concerned about ants and bugs.


Buddhists strive to develop a compassion that is undiscriminating and all-embracing.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda04.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:37 AM

I think we can all agree that *some* Christians have been and are persecuted.
I think we can also agree that *some* Christians have persecuted others, even in current times.
I think we can also agree that being the persecutors or the persecutees is not limited to Christians.
I *hope* we can agree that persecution of anyone *just because of the religion they choose, including those who do not practice any religion* is wrong, wrong, wrong, and will not get humanity to where I think we want to be.

But then, I am an idealist. And even idealists have been persecuted. So later today, I am going to the 2011 Getaway, where I plan to discuss and experience music, and not religion.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:43 AM

Can we all agree that, right now, Christians are persecuted more than any other minority or faith group?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:46 AM

Also, who are Christians persecuting right now?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:49 AM

Not really!!

But we could just agree to disagree.

That's it for me.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:57 AM

""Also, who are Christians persecuting right now?""

Cross posted, but I can't let that pass.

So called Christians (the lunatic, fanatical fundamentalist fringe) are, as you well know, persecuting:-

1. Gay couples who want a stable, lasting, and formally recognised relationship.

2. The majority of Muslims, who just want to get on with their lives.

3. Any woman who seeks an abortion, for any reason.

The list is longer, but I can't be arsed. You work it out Keith. It may not have reached the stage of killing them (in most cases), but it IS nonetheless persecution.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:02 AM

Gay people and abortion seekers are persecuted by extremists of all religions, not specificall Christian, and other religions are more extreme in that persecution.
I challenge that Christians are persecuting Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:12 AM

I see!!

If others are doing the same thing it means that Christians mysteriously are not?

Very strange logic, until I remember the source!

As to the other claim, every time a Christian says "Muslims are terrorists" he is persecuting the vast majority.

I've already said it once. You and I will never reach agreement, because for you, no change of opinion is possible.

And now I'm done with it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM

Why so unfriendly Don?

If gay people are being persecuted by some Christians, but mainly and worse by other religions, it seems harsh to single them out.

I dispute that "Muslims are terrorists" is being said by Christians.
None that I have ever heard.
How do you justify that claim Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 11:35 AM

Keith Says: Can we all agree that, right now, Christians are persecuted more than any other minority or faith group?

Well, no, Keith. I think it's safe to say that women have always been the most-persecuted "minority," although I believe they are a majority.

I think it would be safe to say that whenever we make sweeping statements about groups, we're most likely to be wrong. I suppose though, that with over a billion Christians, many are likely to be persecuted - especially the women (often by their own husbands). In general, though, we're better off to discuss specifics.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: saulgoldie
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:16 PM

Keith,
Demonizing Muslims is a punchcard issue for the TeaPublicans, most of whom at least *call* themselves Christian, even if they don't embody Christianity. Numerous examples out there. On the record statements. And actions.

And can their consistent advocation for policies to restrict birth control for women not be seen as persecution? It is *consistent.* It is directed *at* women. It is an affront to their rights as people. Why is that not persecution? Is torching Planned Parenthood clinics not persecution?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:37 PM

Ok, enough's enough.

Get me some nails and a hammer and I'll persecute the buggers myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 01:43 PM

OK guys, but I just felt that the statement "I think we can all agree that *some* Christians have been and are persecuted. " understates the extent of the persecution now being suffered by so many Christians in so many parts of the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:15 PM

Is it pedantic to point out that women are probably not a minority anywhere?

It isn't just minorities that get persecuted - powerful minorities are often the worst oppressors.
................

When it comes to religious oppression and persecution, for a variety of reasons, it seems pretty evident that Keith is correct that Christians, and Christian congregations are the target of most of the worst examples at this time.

But we should recognise that our own societies have had a part tomplay in bringing this about. For example the invasion of Iraq has led to terrible and irreparable damage to Christian communities which dated back to pre-Muslim times, and had lived amicably among Muslim neighbours for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 04:21 PM

I think Joe did make the point that women are not a minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 02:24 PM

A quote by Chesterton I came across which seems relevant to much of this discussion:

"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 08:57 AM

Dr Rowan Williams said that many Christians were leaving countries such as Iraq and Egypt in the face of persecution.

Many others had been forced to retreat to enclaves for their safety, he said.

Dr Williams added that the treatment of Christians would be the "litmus test" of the success of the Arab Spring.

The head of the world's Anglicans made his claims in the House of Lords.

He said: "At the present moment the position of Christians in the region is more vulnerable than it has been for centuries.

"The flow of Christian refugees from Iraq in the wake of constant threat and attack has left a dramatically depleted Christian population there."

Those who chose to stay in the country had often withdrawn to segregated enclaves for their safety, he said.


The Archbishop says Coptic Christians living in Egypt are facing persecution "Many recognise with heavy hearts things may come to such a pass that there are few, if any other options that will actually guarantee the safety of Christians there," the Archbishop said.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 02:36 PM

First thought that entered my head when I saw the title of this thread is "of or by?"
No religion can claim the moral high ground when it comes to persecuting those who don't fit their particular set of guidelines. The history of the Christian church is second-to-none in having earned itself a bloodsoaked reputation - Quentin Tarrantino - eat your heart out!!!
Even under the general umbrella of Christianity - hard luck if you happen to 'kick with the wrong foot' (and even within the "right" denomination you are not guaranteed protection from abuse - ask the possible victims of Archbishop McQuaid.
Religion deals in mystical absolutes and while it has any say whatever in the day-to-day running of our lives other than that of spiritual guidance, the better, and even that should be only with the total agreement of consenting adults.
Religion and politics is a toxic mix and the sooner it is neutralised, the more likely we are to stop tearing each others heads off in the name of a spiritual bogie-man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 04:57 PM

First thought that entered my head when I saw the title of this thread is "of or by?"
No religion can claim the moral high ground when it comes to persecuting those who don't fit their particular set of guidelines

So who is being persecuted by Christians?
I asked this earlier and Don made some suggetions, but I pointed out that, where it happened, Christians were much less guilty of it than others.
So, why single them out?
You defend other faiths Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:15 AM

Sorry Keith - no dialogue here to nause up yet another thread.
You've had your answer to that one from others, far more eloquently than I could put mine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:50 AM

This was the only answer I got to that question.
1. Gay couples who want a stable, lasting, and formally recognised relationship.

2. The majority of Muslims, who just want to get on with their lives.

3. Any woman who seeks an abortion, for any reason.

Of all religions, I would say that Christians are no less tolerant, and usually far more tolerant, especially of gay and women's rights, than other groups.
So why single out Christians?

You express much sympathy for other persecuted minorities Jim.
The Bedouin Israelis, who despite their "persecution" are thriving, with the fastest growing population of any group on the planet.

Have you none to spare for the persecuted Christians whose numbers are dwindling under the relentless onslaught, in some cases to extinction?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 07:12 AM

This is getting very worrying - I find myself agreeing with Mither, DonT, and even Mr Fluids.

But there is persecution of Xtians in Malaysia, and it is starting tol look as if persecution of Xtians in Egypt is coming back onto the agenda.

Conversely, anyone looking for the unacceptable face of Xtianity need look no further than (P)Rick Perry.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:40 AM

"You defend other faiths Jim."
For the record - I don't defend other faiths; I defend the innocent victims of inter-religious warfare and religious intolerance by any fundamentalist religious extremists, be they Muslim, Christian, Zionist... whoever "they can all go to their own particular hell in a handcart" - remember?
I have no religion and am only interested in the subject while it puts innocent people's lives at risk and brings discord and unhappiness to their existance. The only way I can see that ever happening is to nuetralise any influence that religious groups may have on the way the world is governed. Here in Ireland, we are still counting the child rape victims of Christian persecution (or don't Catholic clerics count as Christians in your book?) - a never-ending task, it would appear.
This is a perfect example of why you really aren't worth debating with - you don't read what others write, then you concoct a distorted version of what has been put forward to suit your own particular 'message to the world' - go away please.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 08:51 AM

Fair point Jim, but I already changed my statement to minorities rather than faiths.
My first should have said, "You defend other minorities Jim."
Why have you no sympathy for this, the most persecuted of all.

A cut/paste,

Christians have only recently begun to talk about how Muslim gangs simply come and take possession of Christian-owned land while the Palestinian security services, almost exclusively staffed by Muslims, stand by. Mr. Qumsieh's own home was firebombed three years ago. The perpetrators were never caught.

"We have never suffered as we are suffering now," Mr. Qumsieh confesses, violating his own introductory warning to the assorted foreign correspondents in his office not to use the word "suffering."

Always a minority religion among the predominantly Muslim Palestinians, Christians are, Mr. Qumsieh says, "melting away," even in Bethlehem. While they represented about 80% of the city's population 60 years ago, their numbers are now down to about 20%, a result not just of Muslims' higher birth rates but also widespread Christian emigration. "Our future as a Christian community here is gloomy," Mr. Qumsieh says.

and,


Mr. Ibrahim's crime in that Hamas-ruled territory was to be a Christian, a transgression he compounded in the Islamists' eyes by writing love poems.

"Muslims tied to Hamas tried to take me twice," says Mr. Ibrahim, and he didn't want to find out what they'd do to him if they ever kidnapped him. He hasn't seen his family since Christmas 2007 and is afraid even to talk to them on the phone.

Speaking to a group of foreign journalists in the Bethlehem Bible College where he is studying theology, Mr. Ibrahim describes a life of fear in Gaza. "My sister is under a lot of pressure to wear a headscarf. People are turning more and more to Islamic fundamentalism and the situation for Christians is very difficult," he says.

In 2007, one year after the Hamas takeover, the owner of Gaza's only Christian bookstore was abducted and murdered. Christian shops and schools have been firebombed. Little wonder that most of Mr. Ibrahim's Christian friends have also left Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 10:03 AM

I am not – not - not getting into a dialogue again with you - though I can't help but notice that you object to English Christians being made aware of American Christian churches excluding mixed-race couples from their services -(see Christian Segregationism 2011)
"It is extraordinary that The Guardian thinks its UK readers need to know all about this. Am I being paranoid, or are Christians being singled out for bad copy?"
It appears that you object to Muslims persecuting Christians, but are quite happy with the idea that Christian Churches persecute Christians because of their colour - lets keep our worship all in the same skin-tone eh - what!.
As I said before - go away please - you've made yourself perfectly clear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 12:11 PM

On that subject I said,
"Greg,of course they should be singled out, but is it an issue of international importance.
A tiny rural church in the backwoods of Kentucky?
Fifteen voted. (only nine voted as bigots)
My suspicion is that, in the pages of The Guardian and similar, it is open season on throwing dirt at Christians just now. "

Scouring the world for an anti-Christian story however trivial, I see as another example of persecution.

Jim, I do not seek dialogue with you, because you always turn it into a nasty, malicious attack on me personally, as again in your last post!

My reopening post was NOT directed at you.
It was my bad luck that you were the only respondent.
If you post you must expect to be replied to.
Imperious commands to "go away" have only a comedic effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM

"Scouring the world for an anti-Christian story however trivial,"
Returning to the "Good Ol' Days" of racial segregation is "trivial"
Thank you for reminding me of everything I detest about racism (and of the hypocricy of religion - which makes me thank god I am an atheist)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:03 PM

There are 9 bigots in a remote Kentucky backwoods church.
Hold the front page!

If they were not just looking for anti-Christian copy, they would not have to resort to such trivia.

Obviously there is no hope of you actually addressing the issues of this thread Jim.
You just rake up groundless smears against me as a person.
That is your only reason for posting here.
You are a sad, obsessed person Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM

Gee, I wonder if there's a way to make a combat thread visible only to the warring parties....

From all this discussion, I think it can be concluded that some Christians are persecuted, and some are persecutors. And the same goes for Muslims, and for just about any other group. I think it's best to assess individuals as individuals, and not for their group affiliation.

That being said, there ARE places in this world where people are persecuted for their faith or gender or sexual orientation or any number of other things, and such persecution must be stopped - no group "deserves" to be persecuted.

As you were, Keith and Jim.

Or not.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:10 PM

That being said, there ARE places in this world where people are persecuted for their faith or gender or sexual orientation or any number of other things,

Yup, Joe, and one of these places is the Good Old U. S. of A. - the "best country in the world" accordin\fg to the christian[sic]Exceptionalist movenment.

John 11:35

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 03:31 PM

"Gee, I wonder if there's a way to make a combat thread visible only to the warring parties....
Sorry Joe but it would have been interesting to see a comment about Keith's view of Christianity from a Chrristian - my mistake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:00 PM

Keith is a very difficult person with whom to discuss any serious subject.

His position is always the same.

Tell him that somebody is committing acts of assault, persecution or racist hate and no matter how solid the evidence, he will reply somebody else is doing it more, or worse, and therefore your original statement must be wrong.

Nobody has yet been able to educate him out of the primary school playground excuse mentality, so all you get is "Jimmy did it too miss".

In Keith's world, if a Muslim threw a snowball at a Christian, that would be persecution, and if the Christian pulled out a gun and shot him, that would be just a predictable response to Muslim aggression.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 01:19 PM

That is unjust Don.
That slur on my character is unjustifiable.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 02:46 PM

Read some of your own posts Keith, and note how many times you do it.

e.g. Syria treats the Bedouins worse than Israel and therefore we shouldn't complain about Israel's treatment.

A non argument since we were not discussing treatment of Bedouins worldwide, but in fact the topic was Israel's behaviour.

You do it all the time.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:03 PM

Not a fair representation of my views Don.
Israel was being demonized for its treatment of the Bedouin.

I provided evidence of the investment being made in their housing by Israel, and that the community was thriving.

You actually agreed with me Don, that it was reasonable to acknowledge that the treatment by Israel of its Bedouin was far better than their treatment at the hands of their Arab brothers in Egypt and Jordan.
And that is all I did.
Your criticism of me is unfounded.

Why am I always attacked by misrepresenting my arguments in previous threads, instead of the points I am currently making?
Because it is easier?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:42 PM

" and that the community was thriving."
Next to a toxic rubbish dump - which you were fully informed of, given the evidence of and are now choosing to ignore once again - I think you have just shown Don's summing up to be about right, don't you?
I doubt if it would be possible to "slur " your "character" any more than you manage to do yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:50 PM

I also provided evidence about the dump.
I provided pictures.
It is an ordinary domestic dump found in all towns.
It is surrounded by apartments and houses.
It is a few minutes walk from some of Jerusalem's most holy sites.
Non-Bedouin Palestinians are contesting that they should be given the sites.

Why are we discussing it on this thread lads?
Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 03:58 PM

""Why are we discussing it on this thread lads?
Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?""

I see! You can bring the subject of Syrian actions to a discussion of Israeli behaviour, but when I respond to a direct challenge to produce evidence of your behaviour, any evidence from outside this thread is disqualified by you.

Another indication that I was right in my assessment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:03 PM

""Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?""

Based on death tolls in Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Rwanda, Sudan, Darfur etc. etc.

NO! Not especially.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM

From your list, let us just consider those conflicts that are of this century.
Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.

And Iraq, where the once thriving Christian community has been persecuted almost to extinction.

Still no comment Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:12 PM

""Sudan, where the Muslim government persecuted the Christian minority in Darfur to an extent verging on genocide.""

I included Darfur because it was anti Christian and to show once again that the rest of us are capable of seeing two sides, while you only see the Christian or the Jewish side.

That anti Christian action and a similar one in Iraq took your attention, but the thousands of Muslims, Buddhists and others murdered in my other examples were, as usual, beneath your notice.

And, by the way, events in the eighties and nineties, while technically of the last century, are all in the last thirty years, and only the fact that those years span the turn of a century grants you the opportunity you seize upon so eagerly, to play down the events which you don't wish to acknowledge.

Once again you show that my earlier assessment of your position is both justified and true.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 01:09 AM

Rwanda was an inter-tribal conflict.
Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan were about conflicting political ideologies, not persecuting minorities.

Any comments on my view that Christians are an exceptionally persecuted minority?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Musket
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:40 AM

Christian persecution..

Right!

Yesterday, three, (count them) three different sets of smiling people came to my door during the course of as many hours asking if I had taken Jesus into my life.

Can anybody tell me how to stop the buggers persecuting my right to watch the latest Harry Potter DVD in peace?

Christian persecution should be a crime. Stop the buggers persecuting me anyway.