BS: How fast do you drive ?

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Mickey191
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:19 PM

Regarding a blowout at say 55 or 60 MPH--What is one to do? My only instructions were to hold on to the wheel tightly & pray.

Ten years ago on my _straight_ country road-Two 18 year olds were on their motorcycles racing toward eachother. No one chickened out---both Died. Each lost a leg. Terrible to hear - worse thing I've ever seen. Two legs cut off.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:59 PM

Last fall I observed a motorcyclist speed recklessly, hit a curb, and die as he impacted a street sign and the median strip. It was all so mindless.

As to the earlier poster who indicated that he had two cars, the one driven harder with the big engine got better mileage, I've heard that story before and either the smaller car is older and poorly maintained, or is driven overloaded and gets hideous mileage.

Efficiency in terms of miles per gallon is obtained by a properly driven engine operated at its most efficient rpm band in a car that is reasonably aerodynamic. Such cars as the diesels and hybrids are not getting better miles per gallon than the large motorcycles.

And I think the US government missed a lot of bets regarding:

1) Paying for the current war by slapping a large tax per gallon at the pump.
2) Requiring that autos in the US come with an instantaneous miles per gallon selectable readout.
3) Mandating fleet efficiencies not excluding Hummers.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:39 PM

Well said, Peace.
Of course, some people are just so important and technically gifted as drivers that they're immune from the laws of cause and effect that fill the zip-up bags with which you have to deal. Lucky them, eh? ;-)
Trouble is, what worries me about the "70's too slow, so I'll drive at 90" brigade is that poor innocent sods get caught up in their carnage. I remember vividly seeing a scene where a car that was so new that it's underside was still shiny had ploughed into some chugging seven-year-itch wagon and killed the occupants of both after a tyre had burst. The seven-year-itch brigade, with their middle-of-the-road approach, probably never gave a thought to the risk they were at until Mr Self-Important Local Authority Panjandrum With His New Office Car simply lost it when the tyre went pop, crossed the central reservation of the A12 and wiped them from the record.
I have to admit that, until I was taught what to do with a blow-out at motorway speed (and had to deal with it under umpteen controlled conditions as if I was on an East-German autobahn - Gawd bless HMG's boundless generosity), I probably would have added to the stats. Driving at speed in any vehicle demands total concentration and a fair degree of skill in reserve in case sh!t happens.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:29 PM

The problem with high speeds is that when shit happens it happens faster. Some years back I spoke with a guy who'd lost control of the vehicle resulting in the death of the passenger and some seriously bad injuries to himself. He hit a patch of ice and his car spun out. It rolled twice and stopped by hitting a large tree--the only large tree for about fifty feet in any direction. He was asking after his friend. I'd just put a blanket over his friend. We don't inform people that others have died, not on the scene. He was told at the hospital. I think he'll carry that with him for the rest of his life. Shit always happens to the other guy, until it happens to you. And when it does, there is no rerun. He was doing the speed limit, btw. Had he been doing 50 mph instead of 65 mph I doubt that his friend--who'd been thrown from the vehicle even though wearing a seatbelt--would have died. And I doubt they have rolled the car twice, and I doubt they'd have hit the tree. But then he was a young man, and the girl he was going to marry was the friend that died. Yep, shit always happens to someone else, until it happens to you, and "I'm sorry" and "Please let me take it back, God" don't change a damned thing.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:55 PM

Forgot -- 5 speed manual tranmission.

Same thing for my wife's Honda Element -- same rpms at the same speed, same sort of tranny, but all wheel drive.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:51 PM

mph/1000rpm is a constant for a particular type of vehicle depending on gearing and tyre circumference.

Have I advocated excessive speed on crowded roads? No.
Have I advocated excessive speed in poor conditions? No.

Reasonably clear motorway, enough room to dodge the ditherers - 70mph is unreasonably restricting.

Catty Carol, apart from the technicality of the speed limit (which is what I am arguing should be changed) while we both have the right to use the right of way, neither of us has any specific right to do it at any particular speed. You seem to feel you have the right to curtail my preference - but say that I have no right to curtail yours. You are demonstrating the absence of the mutual (vigilance and) consideration that I argued should apply all round.

Kendall, "professional traffic control experts" (whatever they are) don't set speed limits. Politicians do. Sometimes local authority "experts" get involved. They of course are employees of local authorities, so do what politicians tell them. One of the measures they use when considering what speed limits to advise to be set is the "85percentile speed". That means they clock all the cars going through (usually with the two pipes across the road) - then they discount the fastes 15% on the ground that they are untypical. Do they discount the slowest 15% who must be equally untypical? No they don't. Bias? Oh yes!

One factor that has not figures in the discussion here is the effect of speeed on road capacity. I don't understand the logic, but apparently it is empirically determinable that with a constant and concentrated stream of cars doing 40, more will pass a given point in an hour than a stream at 80. I supose it shows that even the much maligned driver does on average tend to leave a more than linearly increasing safety gap as speed increases. So in rush hour on the M25 it would flow more traffic at a speed limit of 40 than one of 70.

That does make a case for variable speed limits - but the congested road is not what I am talking about. It's the uncrowded motorway that does not need a limit of 70. It's the crowding that is the problem. When there is no crowding there is no such need for the restriction. Compare. In the 1960s many cars in the UK at 70 were nearing their limits. About a quarter of drivers still had licences from the 30s before the driving test became universal. My mother (now 96 and no longer driving) had an "all groups" licence that would have allowed her to drive a class 1 HGV or a tracked vehicle with skid steer. Now even my daughter's Daewoo Matiz with 797cc can see 100 with a following wind (I'm told). On paper my 1991 Volvo would clear 120 with some ease. Most 2007 Mondeos can manage getting on for 140. Now all drivers pretty well without exception are only allowed to drive vehicles on which their capabilities have been examined. There are written tests on theory. Surely the standard of driving must have improved (although I do see some examples that suggest otherwise). It is not realistic to continue to impose today a limit set in the light of 70s technology. It is not realistic to restrict all by reference to the standards of the least capable.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:37 PM

Interesting. On a UK Honda I had once (back in the Eighties), the mph in top gear worked out at double the tach reading over 100. I later noticed that the same formula applied to two VWs, two Alfas, a Suzuki, a Volvo a Peugeot and a Citroen and to my wife's Ford today. Engines varied from normally aspirated petrol to turbo diesel, but all with manual transmission.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:27 PM

My 1999 Honda Civic LX cruises at 80 mph at 3,000 rpm., or so the tach and speedometer says.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:24 PM

American cars must have different engines, as in most Eurpean and Japanese cars 2500rpm in top gear on a level road will equate to a speed of just over 50mph. Once you start approaching 70mph your fuel consumption rises dramatically, and at over 80 it can be twice what it is at 50.
Mind you, the sort of idiots who think they have a divine right to drive at any speed they like are hardly the sort of people to give any consideration to their effect on the environment.

However, even more annoying than wankers hurtling down the road at 90 with bllind faith in their own superhuman abilities and the capabilities of airbags, ABS and crumple zones are the imbeciles who sit in the middle lane at 60 (or any speed come to that). Many times I've undertaken people who appear to be blithely unaware of the lane on their left. There is no such beast as a 'fast lane' on British dual carriageways; they are overtaking lanes, and the Highway Code states that everyone should keep to the nearside unless overtaking.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:16 AM

One point that I would also like to make...

Someone of my acquaintance (not Little Hawk, I've been a passenger in a car he was driving, and he does not drive like this as far as I know) says he prefers to drive as fast as most of the other cars in traffic. Which is what several people on this thread say is the best thing to do. Well, when this person is "blending with the flow", what I see is that he is choosing to go as fast as the faster (roughly) 50% of the cars on the road, and passing (and weaving in and out of) the slower 50%.

So he's not really blending in with the majority. What he is doing is choosing which 50% of drivers he's going to go the same speed as. He chooses the faster ones.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:04 AM

Rather sweeping generalisations there! On what facts do you base these statements?

Based on the number of terrible drivers I see speeding on the roads every day. The aggressive drivers, the tailgaiters, the people who change lanes constantly and weave in and out of traffic, the people who don't signal, the people who cut other people off. You don't see the people who are going the speed limit doing these things, for the most part. Most, if not all of the people who do these things (with the exception of not signaling and to some extent, cutting other people off) are people who are speeding.

People who speed are usually impatient people (which is why they break the law on a regular basis by driving significantly over the speed limit). An impatient driver is a dangerous driver. And I think an argument can be made that if they regularly break the traffic laws, that, in itself, makes them bad drivers.

There's plenty of bad drivers who don't speed as well. But the fast drivers are more dangerous, because the faster a car is going, the more damage there is in the event of an accident.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:34 AM

I'm desperately trying to stay under 60, but won't manage it for much longer......

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:53 AM

My point earlier, Peace. I've worked in the hospital and seen the results. I've aslso seen a head that went through a windshield, I seen bones literally sticking out several inches from a wound, and the shoes left on the floor of the car, still laced, left as they were when the wearer exited them.

Too, too much carnage, too much death. Especially of young kids.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:43 AM

When combined speeds of collisions (that is, when the speeds of the two vehicles combined) get above 60 mph things get ugly. I don't need physics to know that the top of a skull flys about 20' from the vehicle, or that the eyes pop out of their sockets, or that the human neck snaps and there's not one damned thing first responders can do about it other than help the living, if any are around. Have a nice day, all, and slow down.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:38 AM

We drive a 2001 Hyundai 4 cyl. and a Dodge Neon 4cyl. The Dodge has 127000 miles on it and it gets better milage than the Hyundai with 80,000 miles. Both in excess of 30 mpg.
I also drive a 1930 Ford 4 cyl. whch gets about 15 mpg. with a fraction of the horse power of the other two.
Just an example of the variables we encounter.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: 3refs
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:00 AM

I drive 2 different vehicles. One is mine, the other is my Taxi. Both are 2004 models. One has a 3.0 Ltr engine the other has a 3.8. Both have V-6's. One I pound quite hard(drive it like I stole it), the other is treated like a family member(which it is!)
I'm quite sure that most would find it unusual, that the car which has the bigger engine, gets driven well outside the optimum fuel efficiency range and beat on like a rented mule gets the best mileage!

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: 3refs
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:44 AM

"I've sometimes wished we could all have meters in our car, rather like in taxis, which would show us how much it is costing at the speed we are travelling.   Saving money isn't the highest motive, but it might be quite effective. And one thing no one had mentioned is that the faster we drive and the more fuel we burn, the more damage we do to the environment."

Most gasoline auto engines provide the best fuel efficiency at approximately 2000-2500 r.p.m. This translates into about 100kmph. It depends on whether your in a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder vehicle. So driving slow is not going to work all that well.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:39 AM

RB, your comment that I think we should all drive 6 mph is ridiculous.
All the $5.00 words and fancy formulas change nothing.
Speed limits are set by professional traffic control experts, and they do not set them low enough to piss off the "Leadfoot" types.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:38 AM

A fast walk is maybe four miles an hour. The fasted running speed over short distances is something over 20 mile an hour. Those are the speed our brains have evolved to cope with.

The amazing thing is that we can in fact manage to ratchet up our reaction times to enable us to deal with far higher speeds - but if we find that 55 miles an hour - meaning 110 miles an hour relative speed to vehicles coming the other way - is boringly slow, I think we should question ourselves. In real terms 55 miles is very fast indeed.
................................

I've sometimes wished we could all have meters in our car, rather like in taxis, which would show us how much it is costing at the speed we are travelling.   Saving money isn't the highest motive, but it might be quite effective. And one thing no one had mentioned is that the faster we drive and the more fuel we burn, the more damage we do to the environment.
..............
I hope you took that policeman's number and reported him, Richard. If he could pull you over in those circumstances he had no justification for driving fast anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: JennyO
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:42 AM

CarolC, you said:

the vast majority of people who like to drive fast are bad drivers.........

........You may be an excellent driver. But if you are, you are not in the majority when it comes to people who like to drive fast.

Rather sweeping generalisations there! On what facts do you base these statements?


Captain Ginger, little Hawk said:

Captain Ginger, the primary reason why I usually exceed the local speed limits by 5 or 10 per cent is because that's what the rest of the traffic around me is doing and it's safer for me to drive around the same speed as the general flow of traffic.

and you replied with:

The "everyone does it, so I have to" argument is plain childish - it carries all the conviction of standing there surrounded by shards of broken glass and saying with a quivering lip "some big boy did it and ran away."

Note, he was saying it was safer that way, not your interpretation of it as 'childish'. I'm sure you can see the difference.


Having said all that, I don't think I've ever done 100 - not because I don't think I'm a good enough driver, but because:

a) I don't think our roads in Oz are good enough - even the freeways.
b) Although my car is in good mechanical condition and is regularly checked, it is 13 years old and there is a slight chance that things can go wrong unexpectedly and I'd rather not have them happen at a speed like that.
c) We do get wildlife wander onto the road occasionally - particularly wombats, and there is an element of unpredictability there.
d) There are other possible things one could come across, such as broken down vehicles, stupid drivers, branches or rocks on the road, dead animals etc etc that I would rather not find at that speed.

The speed limit on our freeways here is 110 km per hour, which is only 60 mph. The general flow of traffic on them is maybe 120 - 130 km per hour (72 - 78 mph), so I'm comfortable around that range normally - slower than some of the maniacs but faster than the road hogs. I may have momentarily hit 150 - 160 (90 - 96) but I don't stay at that speed for long because of possible consequences in the back of my mind. When the speed cameras are around (and we do have a lot of them) I'll drop back to the limit, but then I find everybody is going past me.

I still say that being aware of conditions around me and driving to suit them while being considerate of other drivers and 'blending in' with the flow of traffic is the safest way to drive.

Something else nobody has mentioned is the importance of your emotional state. Being angry or upset affects one's judgment unfavourably. Road rage is dangerous. I try to be in a positive and relaxed frame of mind when I drive, and not let the 'turkeys' get to me. I also try to avoid driving when I am short of sleep. That can be a killer.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:59 AM

Catty Carol, I didn't say I drove at 100mph. I said that on a clear road in modern machinery 100 mph wasn't dangerous.

I don't think it was catty at all. You stated that most speed limits are "irrationally low". You have, as far as I can tell, been advocating in this thread to have the speed limit changed to 100 mph on motorways. You show a lack of sensitivity to other drivers if you expect all of them to be able to drive as fast as you would like to drive yourself. Many people cannot do this safely, and your only advice, based on your comments earlier in this thread, would be for them to not drive. Such lack of consideration for others usually is not confined to just one specific item, but is usually a part of a broader pattern of behavior.


The consideration you owe me is, once you have finished your overtaking manoeuvre, and once it is safe for you to do so, to pull back in.   

The interface between these two things is observation and awareness of other road users. Mirror-signal-manoeuvre. If your manoeuvre is going to affect another road user you should be aware of that before you start it, and if your manouevre is going to cause another road user to alter course or brake, you should not start the manoeuvre - but if you have right of way the other user should alter course or brake to permit you your right of way.

You won't get any argument from me on these points.


As in so much of life, your "right" to do one thing may affect the "right" of another to do something else

Yes. Precisely. Your right to drive and my right to drive are equal. You do not have a "right" to drive fast. You do not have a right to make the roads unusable for a large segment of the driving public just because you want to go fast.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:47 AM

I tend to drive about 70 MPH or what I term is "The speed of the road". One important point to make is that every road and situation calls forth its own speed, and if you are going below it you are just as much an impediment to flow as if you are one of those lane weaving troubleseekers. In the motorways (divided highways) unless you are passing, you are not to be in the left lane if you are in the US or the right lane if you are in the UK. Too often the passing lane is plugged by some yob who fancies he or she likes all that lovely space but doesn't see that by not advancing they are keeping behind others who wish to pass.

If others want to drive above the speed limit, best policy is to let them, after all they won't be in your way, they are getting out of your way.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:48 AM

Car in perfect order. "Flying hood". My my.

One reason drivers fall asleep is boredom. And 55 contributes to that. Another is stupidity. If I find I am too tired, I pull off the road and take a nap.

Catty Carol, I didn't say I drove at 100mph. I said that on a clear road in modern machinery 100 mph wasn't dangerous. There is 4 times the kinetic energy to be dissipated at 100 than at 50. And 4 times at 50 than 25. And so on. The "logic" presented by Kendall is that we should all only do 6.25 mph (a brisk-ish pedestrian trot) because every time you double that speed the kinetic energy to be dissipated quadruples (standard square law curve).

Consideration is a mutual thing. If you are overtaking on a motorway doing your comfy 65 or less, (unlikely in itself, but it might happen) and I come upon you, naturally I slow down without tailgating to permit you to complete your manoeuvre. That's the consideration to which you are IMHO entitled (although I once got pulled over and patronised by a policeman in an unmarked car because I didn't abort my motorway overtaking manoeuvre and allow him - no bells, no sirens, no lights, seemingly just another car - to overtake in my stead).

The consideration you owe me is, once you have finished your overtaking manoeuvre, and once it is safe for you to do so, to pull back in.   

The interface between these two things is observation and awareness of other road users. Mirror-signal-manoeuvre. If your manoeuvre is going to affect another road user you should be aware of that before you start it, and if your manouevre is going to cause another road user to alter course or brake, you should not start the manoeuvre - but if you have right of way the other user should alter course or brake to permit you your right of way.

It's a two-way-street. As in so much of life, your "right" to do one thing may affect the "right" of another to do something else, and as in the comparison under the European Convention of Human rights between rights of privacy and the freedom of the press (or freedom of expression and defamation) the respective rights need to be balanced so that neither is absolute.

The 70 speed limit in the UK is no longer sensible and it should be higher.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 07:46 PM

I had a bout with a flying hood too. There is no way to forsee this type of incident.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM

Even when I AM the only car for as far as I can see, before and behind, on a good, straight stretch of well-maintained road, I keep the cruise set as I've noted. Kendall is correct: things happen. Tires blow out, for instance.

I was once driving 60 mph and the hood latch let go. Suddenly I was doing a mile a minute and the entire windshield was covered with white-painted steel. Fortunately, it was a straight road with very little traffic and I could stick my head out the window and brake down, then pull well off the road. I even had some wire in the car with which to wire down the hood until I could get home.

I've driven 125 mph. On a track. With a cop next to me. I know I could do it, but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Moreover, as I get older I find myself taking fewer and fewer chances. Whether it's maturity or what, but I've got a lot to see and do before I die.

True story: we were just outside Pinedale, Wyoming when we came upon the emergency vehicles and a three-car wreck. From the skid marks on the pavement I'd guess that speed greatly in excess of the limit, and possibly alcohol, was involved. But what got me was the gurney with the sheet-covered mass on it and the little girl (four years old?) standing by the adult, eyes wide with fear and lack of understanding, holding an adult's hand for all she was worth. And then we were past and there was nothing more except three ambulances, three cops, and a wrecker headed back the way we'd came....

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 07:20 PM

I could feel safe at 100 mph if I was the only car on the road, and I had tires that were designed for that speed, and I knew that the car was perfect mechanically, and there were no deer, moose, cows, sheep or horses crossing the road, and the road was as straight as an arrow.
I've never doubted my ability to drive at any speed, but my ability is a tiny part of what is required to drive that fast.
Just yesterday here, a whole family was wiped out because some sap fell asleep at the wheel, crossed the center line and hit another car head on. It happened too fast for the other driver to react. That is only one good reason that 100 mph is too fast.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:27 PM

Unexpected things happen even on clear roads. Things fall off the backs of lorries, tyres can go, dramatically in some cases, vehicles can change lanes unexpectedly, sometimes even oncoming vehicles from the opposite carriageway, drivers can have heart attacks...

The faster we are going the less time we have to react to anything unexpected. And the less time any other drivers have to react to what we do.

People used to shrug off drunk driving as a bit of a joke. No longer, now most people recognise it as selfish and criminal and as something that merits severe penalties. Roll on the day speeding is seen in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 05:41 PM

If you say you cannot control a modern car at 75 on a clear road then I can only suspect a lack of ability or love of hyperbole.

I didn't say this. I said that 75 is the upper limit of my safe driving abilities under most conditions. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. There's plenty of people like me, too, and you share the roads with all of them.

I'm glad they have the cameras where you are, because they clearly need them there. Your lack of sensitivity to the other people with whom you share the road suggests to me that you are probably one of the people for whom the speed limits are set as low as they are.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 05:24 PM

If a car weighing 2,000 pounds going 100 mph hit another car going the same speed and weighing the same, the potential energy released follows the formula E=1/2mv^2. (And yes, I know the difference between mass and weight and that this formula is for point energy and all that.)

So:

(2000 x (146.333fps^2))/2 = you work out the foot-pounds of energy released. Then multiply it by 2. The answer, in either foot-pounds or joules, is "An awful lot."

I'm pretty sure I've got this right. My days of calculatin' physics is long behind me, except when I really, really gotta, and I don't have a either a calculator OR a slide rule handy.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 04:19 PM

There is no way around the laws of physics, and 100 mph is just too damn fast.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:06 PM

100 (post not speed)

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:21 PM

As I said earlier, the speed limit out here (Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana) is 75 mph for automobiles and 65 mph for trucks, vehicles towing things, and so on. On the Interstates, off them it's 10 mph lower. However...if you do the speed limit you will be run over and possibly ticketed for obstructing traffic (especially around Salt Lake City, which has the worst drivers I've ever encountered). 80 to 82 mph is acceptable and will keep you up with most of the traffic, although there are FUDs who go 95 to 100 mph. FUDs get tickets, too -- the cops are now using Chargers with interior LED light bars. If you're driving way too fast in Idaho and there's what appears to be a black car ahead of you and it's doing about the speed limit, don't go whipping on past because as you pass it you might just notice the words "Idaho State Police" just before s/he turns on the siren and the red&blues.

Run away and they'll call in the local sheriff and the local cops and you will NOT find the results enjoyable. It's been tried -- the cops will use "spike sticks" to flatten your tires first, and if you persist they'll herd you into a cul-de-sac and you'll produce your license (if any) at gunpoint.

Last year a guy tried just what I've described and the cops reacted as described. Only the speeder then decided to ram a police car out of the way. Don't do that, either. The police really, really hate all the paperwork you will cause them in your failure. The lad who did it is now serving a term, but not as an office boy....

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:21 PM

Hello, who ate my post?

If you say you cannot control a modern car at 75 on a clear road then I can only suspect a lack of ability or love of hyperbole.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:59 PM

"Certainly no-one's ever rammed me, cut me up or pulled a gun on me for my flagrant adherence to the limits."

Yeah, but you don't live in LA or NYC.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:56 PM

Ah, you're accusing me of being childish now, are you, Captain Ginger? ;-) Very well, then! I am going to retaliate, sir, in ways you never suspected. First, I am going to open a webpage dedicated to saying horrible things about you so the whole world will know what an awful person you are. Yes! And that's only the beginning. Next, I am going to paint graffiti on the walls of public buildings saying: "Captain Ginger is a poo-poo head!" Then I am going to implore people nationwide to send you hate mail. Your life will become a living hell.

Yes, you are going to be very, very, very sorry that you called me childish. Boy are you going to be sorry. OOO-wee!

The fact that you are cute and cuddly will not save you.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:15 PM

"However, I don't think any poster here has been daft enough to suggest that any vehicle should never be overtaken."

It is against the law (in Canada) to overtake an emergency vehicle--police, fire, ambulance--when the lights are flashing and the sirens are on in town or on the highway.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:12 PM

To say or imply that no-one is allowed to overtake a Landrover is just a bit silly.
Couldn't agree more. Sensible overtaking is what keeps the highways from sclerosis. However, I don't think any poster here has been daft enough to suggest that any vehicle should never be overtaken.
The "everyone does it, so I have to" argument is plain childish - it carries all the conviction of standing there surrounded by shards of broken glass and saying with a quivering lip "some big boy did it and ran away." Unless some strange process of induction is at work, there is nothing to stop any vehicle from sticking to the speed limit. I very much doubt that anyone is going to try to ram you at 65mph. Certainly no-one's ever rammed me, cut me up or pulled a gun on me for my flagrant adherence to the limits. But maybe I just look too cute and cuddly to threaten.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

It's a matter of people's abilities, not what people think is right. And if the speed limit is 100 when the road is mostly empty, many people will still be going 100 on it when it is way to crowded for 100 to be a safe speed.

And that's because the vast majority of people who like to drive fast are bad drivers and should never be allowed to drive anywhere near as fast as they think they should. The good drivers are, as often as not, the ones who know their limitations and drive accordingly. (I am not saying that you, Richard, are necessarily a bad driver. You may be an excellent driver. But if you are, you are not in the majority when it comes to people who like to drive fast.)

You are suggesting that the majority of people shouldn't be allowed to drive at all, just so a small minority of people can drive as fast as their little hearts desire. I am saying that the people who like to drive fast should realize that they don't own the road, and make accommodations for those who cannot safely drive as fast as they do (which is most people). There's a really big difference between these two things.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:48 PM

Captain Ginger, the primary reason why I usually exceed the local speed limits by 5 or 10 per cent is because that's what the rest of the traffic around me is doing and it's safer for me to drive around the same speed as the general flow of traffic.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:42 PM

"Right" is often a matter of consideration, and I do wonder whether those who dawdle do realise how inconsiderate they are being.

I often find that on crowded motorways it is easier not to push too hard, and avoid the tailgating oafs in the fast lane, but on an uncrowded motorway, with enough room to avoid the unseeing unthinking, 100 is not really all that fast. It's still possible to avoid ladders dropped by windowcleaners, exploding tyres off HGVs, and people who drop their sumps (done all of those over the years). Nowadays it isn't practical to do it because of those bloody cameras!

A Landrover is a wonderful tool off the road. On the road it has many limitations, not least the industrial deafness that can result. When I was working regularly with the All-wheel drive club, Andy with whom I did a lot of the work and who was a motoring journalist borrowed a Discovery 300TD to go to a gather somewhere in the Midlands or North, and gave up after 25 miles of the M25 and came home because he couldn't stand the noise. To say or imply that no-one is allowed to overtake a Landrover is just a bit silly.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:17 PM

My preferred top speed, by the way (the one I feel the most comfortable with) is 65.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:15 PM

I'm not a bad driver, and of course I should be driving. There's nothing wrong with driving at 70 - 75 miles an hour. I'm right in the middle of the range of driving abilities you will encounter on the road. There are much worse drivers out there than me. And we all pay for the roads. So you will just have to continue to accommodate the 75 percent of people who need to drive slower than you. To think otherwise in incredibly self centered and immature. We all have as much right to the roads as you.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 12:09 PM

On my reading, the majority of posters here seem to think it's OK to exceed the limit by 5 to 10 per cent. Is this because they are all above average drivers with super-fast reaction times, who only drive when surrounded by equally competent drivers?
Or do they all have lifestyles so hectic that time and space must be bent to their schedule?
For myself, I tend to drive at around 65mph on motorways (as that's as fast as my 24-year-old Land Rover will comfortably travel) and around 45-50mph on unrestricted single carriageways. I know how long it takes me to get from A to B and if I have to be at B at a particular time I'll leave earlier.
And arguments about the superior engineering of modern vehicles are specious - the laws of physics remain the same, as does the human capacity for lapses of concentration and stupidity. The sort of person who drives above the limit because s/he lives life in an admin vortex and is perpetually running to catch up is just the sort of disorganised idiot who will either have a crash or (more tragically) cause one.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 10:20 AM

I long ago developed a method for determining the safe speed in snow: slowly accelerate until you feel the rear wheels slip (it feels like your rear legs have been kicked out from under you) and then back off. From my old '75 Honda Civic this was about 45 mph in wet snow over car-packed snow. But you have to do it each and every time, because conditions are different every time you drive on the stuff.

Truebit, learn to use the cruise control but NEVER NEVER NEVER use it in snowy or icy conditions! I learned this the hard way when passing an 18-wheeler on the Indiana Toll Road once -- doing a 180 while next to a big truck is pretty exciting, lemme tell ya! About two days later I read a bit in the paper that told me what I had just learned the hard way.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM

Kendall - yes. 27 seat passenger coaches. And trucks up to 5 tonnes.


Carol - your call, but don't impose your limitations on everyone else. If you are as limited as you say you are, should you be driving at all? I suspect you of false modesty to try to prove your point. You are probably perfectly OK. I do however aim to keep a lookout for people who have that sort of dithery look or bad road positioning that might indicate imminent brain failure.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 07:11 AM

I'm a safe driver because I know that I have no business going faster than 70 - 75. Ever. So I don't do it.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: JennyO
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:50 AM

There are many circumstances in which 100mph involves no real risk to anyone, and it should not be illegal. There are others (last time I came back from Nottingham) when the visibility and road conditions are poor. It was pissing down. Lil old petrolhead me was doing about 50. Everyone and their dog was charging past at about 70 or so. Unsafe - but in accordance with the speed limit.

Exactly Richard - that is the whole point. It's driving intelligently in accordance with conditions that makes for a safe driver. You sound like you are one, and I would hope that I measure up as one, too.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:47 AM

(Slow down for tailgaiters in this country, and you might get shot.)

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:46 AM

Richard Bridge, I can tell you of at least one circumstance in which no road in the world would be safe for people to go 100 mph. That would be a road with me driving on it.

Yes, Llanfair, we were both just fine. Only injury was the scraped knuckle. Those Forresters are incredibly safe cars. The air bags never went off though because the deer never hit the bumper (which is what triggers the air bags). The deer was flying when we hit it, having leaped up in the air just prior to impact.

Subject: RE: BS: How fast do you drive ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 06:41 AM

In my neck of the woods the safe speed is always much lower than the posted speed in foul weather. If the sign says Speed Limit 65, that means under ideal conditions. If it is raining, the SAFE speed is nearer 45.
I was tooling along at about 50 in a rain storm, checked my left mirror, and here comes a red pickup in the passing lane going way too fast. He hit a puddle with a sound like someone kicking a trash can, spun around twice and stopped in the median. Guess he never heard of "hydroplaning".

R.B. consider if you will, just how much rubber is in contact with the road at any given time. THAT is what stops you when you hit the brakes, and if you compare the amount of rubber on the road on a car, then on a big truck, then consider the weight of each you will see that there is damn little difference.
Is it Newton's second law that says things in motion tend to stay in motion? Have you ever driven a 9 ton vehicle?