BS: Pope on pedophile priests

Subject: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 06:59 PM

April 16, 2008

WASHINGTON — Pope Benedict XVI chose to address bluntly the sex scandal that has torn at the church here even before he landed Tuesday on his first official visit to the United States, saying he was "deeply ashamed" by the actions of pedophile priests.

Is being ashamed enough, considering the extent and length of these crimes, and inability of this church to take action for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:01 PM

inability ??
Reluctance more like.


G

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:20 PM

"Is being ashamed enough, considering the extent and length of these crimes, and inability of this church to take action for decades."

What would you have him do?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:39 PM

How about reach out to the victims, as a start? Maybe some could be helped by church funded therapy?

How about purging the church of those responsible, and even those who turned a blind eye to what they knew was happening?

Do we know if anything changed inside?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:40 PM

Bruce...perhaps a study of celibacy in the priesthood and its relationship to paedophilia among priests.
I understand that the celibacy rule has been attracting a very high persentage of homosexuals to the priesthood and that assaults on young boys are most common.
These points were made on UK tv by a US representative of the Catholic church about a couple of weeks ago.
I heard the interview, but didn't catch the mans name, so I'm afraid I have no link.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:06 PM

I do NOT condone any of that. Hell, I live in Canada. Both the Catholics AND the Anglicans committed abuses as well as some other 'children's aid organizations. I just was wondering. I too think there should be amends made by those churches.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:10 PM

"Is being ashamed enough, considering the extent and length of these crimes, and inability of this church to take action for decades."

What would you have him do?

For starters he should castrate the Bishops that floated these criminals from church to church & parish to parish & hang them out for the public to flog them. The Bishops were the ones that should really be held for hanging as they were the ones that are responsible for these pedophiles to continue to victimize for decades when they could have nip it in the bud & stop this as an excepted behavior.

He feels sorry but not nearly as sorry as the kids that became vitims & then had to go on knowing their tormentors continued elsewhere unabashed in their wake of ruin.

He should also give the victims what they ask for, they are due thier justice. He should at the very least try & give them an ear & listen.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:34 PM

Bennie just met with some victims....

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
                                    -- Matthew 18:6

My brother was studying for the deaconate, and the two priests teaching the class weren't taking the subject of pedophile priests seriously, or not as seriously as he thought they should. So he asked them if they believed in the words of Jesus in the New Testament. "Of course," answered. And then my bro quoted to them the words above. It shut them up.

It should go without saying, but my brother is NOT a member of the deaconate of the Roman Catholic Church. Somehow he seems to have "lost his vocation" in that direction....

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:34 AM

Well, considering that it was his office that orchestrated the willful cover up of the actions of these perverts, I find this rather hypocritical of Pope Adolf....

Also I would like to point out that paedophilia and homosexuality are not in any way shape or form linked, in fact the vast majority of young boys raped by men, were not molested by homosexual men. Their lives were perverted by straight men. Paedophilia is not a sex act...it is an act of control. It is an act of power. It is an act of betrayal. Anyone who believes otherwise, needs to educate themselves before they voice such asinine opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:10 AM

I understand he also expressed views on former US treatment of blacks, but the media have not risen against him as they did against Obama's pastor.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:19 AM

According to their own beliefs, the Pope could at any time have ordered all priests (and others) who have committed abuse to confess to the police, on pain of damnation. That he didn't indicates two things to me:

(1) He doesn't believe in his powers, or in damnation.
(2) Neither do his priests.

If the top brass don't believe, why should the grunts?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:57 AM

Just thought I'd add a musical interlude to the debate

http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id28.html


Sorry about the phoney American accent Richard!

al

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:39 AM

Truly fascinating elocution, Al!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:43 AM

I think he should get off, for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:38 AM

In which sense?

I think the donkey did get off - ie got his rocks off

I think the donkey did get off - he then dismounted

I think the donkey did get off - he was not convicted.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM

Being above the law is good.

Its good to be the King

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:01 AM

Especially if you are infallible in matters of faith and morals, no matter HOW that infallibility was achieved....

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:20 AM

All my accents are phoney Richard. I am a phoney. Only Martin Carthy (product of the Walter Gabriel/Long John Silver/ Bonny from the Yetties love triangle) can truly claim to be authentic.

What d'you reckon to the Pope's accent, he's gotta be putting that on a bit? You'd think he was a foreigner.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: irishenglish
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:40 AM

But sometimes its the actions that go a long way. His comments were one thing, but his unscheduled meeting with younger victims of the sexual abuse was a decent gesture, and will be remembered I am sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:06 AM

In the warmest most Norman Rockwell meaning of the words "Let each person be free in accordance to their conscience" are words that define the triumph and disasters of human race.

The success of the hedge fund manager is the acquision of 1.2 million dollars a day. As for his conscience only time will tell. The success and conscience of most of the people on this earth is to feed theri family on $1 a day.

I can understand the devotion and conscience of both individuals and hope that one day they will understand and help each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: bankley
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM

so how do you say blow job in Latin ?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:38 PM

I dunno, but "minigolf" is "pilamálleus minūtus".

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:41 PM

Amergin.

Thankyou for your precise and accurate appraisal.

Anyone who hasn't read it, scroll up!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:03 PM

fellatio?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:14 PM

The Pope is on the priests? Wow......this problem really does go clear to the top.

The religious right, pedophile priests, racism from the pulpit, condoning those who attend church and yet torture because this is God's country, child abuse through the interpretation of scripture..............................yeah........Now someone tell me that religion is still a wonderful thing.   

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:19 PM

Religion IS a wonderful thing. People suck, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM

"so how do you say blow job in Latin ?"

Moneeca Looenskee.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:34 PM

Looewesci
loowensci
loowescis
lowescorum
loowenscorum
loowenscis(six times)

Thats the only thing about a papal request for a blow job in Latin, you can't really decline it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

Well, I don't think there are any easy answers. I'm not convinced that anybody knows how to solve the problem of pedophilia. It's not fair to say that the Catholic Church did nothing about the problem (but it IS fair to say they botched it badly). In the 1970's, dioceses spent millions on treatment centers - and that was an age when we all believed that there were or would soon be psychiatric techniques to cure every problem. It was an age when people viewed such things as illnesses more than crimes. Remember the emphasis on "rehabilitation" in correctional institutions of the time? But anyway, they built a number of huge treatment centers, and they spent megabucks paying the operators of the centers. They believed that when a priest had completed the program, he would be completely cured.

My response that dioceses acted in good faith by sending pedophile priests to treatment centers is only part of the answer. It's also very true that many cases were ignored or covered up. Some of that was callous and criminal, some was a fear of facing consequences, some of it was due to an inability to believe that well-known and well-loved priests could do such horrible things, and some just stupidity. The U.S. Catholic Church has paid a heavy price for these failings, and it will continue to pay for at least the next decade or so. In my diocese, every victim was paid a million dollars, whether there was evidence to back the claim or not. Property was sold to pay the claims, and half the staff of the diocesan central office was laid off. Every employee and every volunteer who works with children is fingerprinted and given training on sex offenses. In the United States, four dioceses have filed for bankruptcy or are very close to doing so. Most priests with credible allegations of sex offenses, have been removed from ministry.

We're in a different age now, an age that emphasizes punishment as the only response to crime - and more punishment if the orignal punishment didn't work. It's very easy now to look back at incidents that happened thirty years ago, and to say that all those priests should have been arrested and convicted. But that's a simplistic response. Criminal prosecution and huge financial settlements are not going to stop pedophilia, and they are not going to heal the victims. Both prosecution and compensation are necessary, but more and more money and more and more jail time aren't the total solution.

I think a good start would be for us to acknowledge that our society does not really know how to deal with sex offenders. The Catholic Church certainly failed horribly in this matter. At the very least, it should have referred every suspected crime to the police and it should have removed sex offender priests from ministry. But really, nobody has an answer. California has laws that make it extremely difficult for convicted sex offenders to find a home once they are released from prison, so now we have a problem of sex offenders living with our homeless population. We've given up on the idea of treating sex offenders, so now we just put them in prison for longer terms and then release them in a more dangerous state than before they were convicted. But at least we've satisfied the electorate by making the punishment draconian.

As a society, our primary response to sex offenses has been to point the finger of blame at somebody and demand that they pay a heavy price for their misdeeds. And yes, there IS blame, serious blame - and the people who have done wrong must pay for their wrongdoing. The trouble is, when we blame others, we don't see how we ourselves have also been unable to resolve the problem.

As long as the problem continues to exist, we as a society have an obligation to work to resolve it. Those who are directly to blame must certainly be punished - but that isn't the total answer. And the fact of the matter is that we don't have an answer to the problem of pedophilia.

-Joe Offer-

---

Spaw, with regards to your comment:

The religious right, pedophile priests, racism from the pulpit, condoning those who attend church and yet torture because this is God's country, child abuse through the interpretation of scripture..............................yeah........Now someone tell me that religion is still a wonderful thing.

That's a cheap shot, Spaw. Most churches and most church-going people don't condone any of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:14 PM

Quoddam autem nefandum et ignominiosum valde vitium in nostris partibus inolevit, cui nisi districtae animadversionis manus quantocius obviet, certum est, quod divini furoris gladius in multorum perniciem immaniter grassaturus impendet. Heu! pudet dicere, pudet tam turpe flagitium sacris auribus intimare; sed si medicus horret virus plagarum, quis curabit adhibere cauterium? Si is, qui curaturus est, nauseat, quis ad incolumitatis statum pectora aegrota reducat? Vitium igitur contra naturam velut cancer ita serpit, ut sacrorum hominum ordinem attingat.
                              -- Peter Damian to Leo IX, ca. 1049 CE.

---

(click)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:32 PM

C'mon, Rap, give us a translation.

I took four years of Latin ~ albeit more than 40 years ago ~ which is way more than most of our fellows here, and I'm not even going to TRY making sense of that!

---

I confess: I added the link to the translation - before PoppaGator posted. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:01 PM

I seriously doubt most Mudcatters understand the complicated world of canon law sufficiently to opine on what the Pope can and cannot do. What we're left with is what we WISH he could, and therefore our feelings tell us that he should, do.

Unfortunately none of us have been put in the position he is in, and really can only create change in those situations that are within our own, personal reach.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:44 PM

Al, you may be 100% phoney (you said it,not me) but with Van Gogh's ear for accents, have you ever really listened to Martin Carthy's enunciation and compared it to Robin Hood Bay?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:48 PM

Geez, why go to Notre Dame anymore???

A certain abominable and terribly shameful vice has grown up in our region. Unless the hand of severe punishment resists as soon as possible, there is certainly a danger that the sword of divine anger will be used savagely against it to the ruin of many. Alas! it is shameful to speak of, shameful to suggest such foul disgrace to sacred ears! But if the doctor shrinks in horror from infected wounds, who will take the trouble to apply the cauter? If the one who is to heal becomes nauseated, who will lead sick hearts back to health? Vice against nature creeps in like a cancer and even touches the order of consecrated men.

Peter Damien was speaking out against priestly homosexuality in general, not pedophilia in the specific, but his words apply even more to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:03 PM

I've never been to Robin Hood bay.....a colony of people who talk like Martin sings. I don't believe it. Even he doesn't talk like he sings!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:15 PM

Joe, I love ya' like a brother but that's where I'm at anymore. While they may not condone it, it seems to become more and more prevalent..........atrocity after atrocity with the stamp of approval from someone's way of thinking and interpretation. Nope....Can't imagine you or Susan or many others here involved in such but I see all too many in the society in general.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:15 PM

All I know about Robin Hood's Bay is it's the only place in England where I got a decent beer - Grouse Beater was the name.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:16 PM

Joe,
I didn't know you'd been to England looking for beer. You should have said.

Grouse beater, I can't bring it to mind. If I can find some , I will send you some. But to be honest, merely decent.....it hardly describes our finest beers.

Do come here again, and kip on our sofa and I will show you the local stuff on offer.

as for the priests - its all weird shit. i was lucky, my Grandma had a terrific barney with the local priest and my mother was only one of four kids who wasn't brought up a catholic.

so I wasn't a catholic, but my cousin was and was terribly abused by the priests. every which way. nightmares into his 30's and all that stuff. He grew up respecting their teaching methods - which made him very successful, but determined his own kids weren't going to suffer as he had.

there was an article in the the Irish Times a while back, asking for compassion for the errant priests. A lot of them were suckered into the priesthood at an age when they had little idea of what was involved, and what exactly they were renouncing. A lot of them came from rural communities and were a long way from home . completely at sea in city places- with no idea of how sophisticated townie kids conducted themselves.

Van Gogh's ear, Richard you make Oscar Wilde seem like Arthur Mullard.

all the best to all

al

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:28 PM

Ps Is that how they spell paedophile in America?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM

... seems to become more and more prevalent...

Well is it a surpise that it SEEMS that way considering (A) the general trend toward empowerment of victims that increases reporting, (B) the advances in counseling approaches on tough topics that allows memories to surface which increases retroactive reporting, (C) the free flow of information on the cybersuperhighway and CNN, and (D) the effect of the womens lib movement as a foundation for advances in empowerment?

Not to mention the societal advances in litigiousness combined with the financial incentive for lawyers to "help" victims? Not saying there are not real victims, but didja ever consider the thought that during the "consciousness-raising" part of any trend toward eliminating specific oppressions, it's gonna be hard NOT to hear about cases of abuse?

Then there's the gay thing. As gay liberation moves forward, all KINDS of voices come out of the closets they've been in, and subject people didn't use to discuss openly are right out there.

More people nowadays are taliking about more things, and more media is covering the salacacuious angles, and more peope ar etuning in. Why right here at Mudcat iut's all OVER the forum, who is being victimized by whom, on a daily basis.


Nobody wants to hear good news anymore. God isn't "dead"-- it's just that nobody wants to hear messages of hope anymore if they can have a quick argument (or air an old grievance) instead. (And the media capitalizes on this fascination with the negative.)

There are people (and we all know and love some of them) whose whole persona is built on old victimization, and not just here. Hardi and I spend most of every day trying to aim several people's eyes outta the muck they insist in wallowing in. D'ya think if they ever got off their personal soapboxes, the daily drip of media badnews might not seem so negative?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Beer
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:51 PM

I hear ya Susan.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:15 AM

Interesting to see that not one poster has responded to my point about the celibacy rule.
This rule seems to me to be the biggest problem for Catholisism and the cause of most of the child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:18 AM

By the way Lox, Amergins post is simply his opinion.

We need a proper study of the celibacy law, homosexuality and links to child abuse before any conclusions can be drawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:53 AM

Well, ake, the celibacy rule is why I left a Catholic seminary after eight years. There have been studies made, and no causal relationship has been found between celibacy and child molesting. Child molesters are child molesters, whether they're celibate or not. The requirement of celibacy does not turn people into child molesters.

On the other hand, I know a number of good, normal people who would have made good priests - but they left before or after ordination because they could not live with the celibacy rule. So, I suppose the case could be made that people with normal sexuality tend not to choose celibacy. That was what happened to me, and to a number of friends who would have made terrific priests. We had one guy in our class who showed enormous potential. He was sent to Rome to study for a doctorate after he was ordained. He didn't last ten years as a priest. Now he's a married lay person working for a diocese - removed from his job as a theology professor in a Catholic college because he is a former priest. What a shame.

But the celibacy rule didn't turn him into a child molester - it turned him into a married former priest.

I had two classmates who were accused of sex offenses. One is no longer allowed to function as a priest, and I don't know the story of what happened to him at all. I heard he had "retired" from Wisconsin to Florida at the age of 50, and then recently read he was no longer allowed to function as a priest. The other was accused of something that happened thirty years ago. He had served as a missionary in Africa for over twenty years. About the time the accusation surfaced, he was working at a desk job in Rome. The guy in Florida was a little "swishy" and was known as one of the "fems," but nothing that would make you think he would end up a sex offender (and maybe he isn't - I don't know what happened except that he's not allowed ot be a priest any more). The guy in Rome didn't seem unsual to me when we were college students.

That's my personal experience, not a scientific study.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 03:04 AM

Akenaton:
         I think most would agree that the celibacy rule has outlived it's usefulness and that its implementation has a tendency to attract eccentric candidates more than it does those would serve us well.
JP II went a long way towards bringing the church up-to-date and his years of ill health allowed the seeds that he had planted, time to grow.
Benedict is no spring chicken but has refused to be just a caretaker in his declining years.
He has chosen to tackle this subject head on and is probably quite prepared to take what's coming to him from the victims and the faithful.
The rest is just static.
The problem has more to do with the abuse of power than homosexuality and has manifest itself in Sex Abuse probably but not entirely because of the celibacy rule.
Case in point... That bloke that picked him up at the airport.... he's married, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:45 AM

Thanks, Beer. I was in a rare black mood last night. We get SO TIRED of hearing about this. (The collar is a target.)

Ake, I did respond. Read my post. It's been argued here ad naauseum while having NOTHING to do with pedophilia.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM

I wonder what he has to say about the Canadian genocide?

http://www.thecumberlander.ca/cgi-bin/show_articles.cgi?ID=611

I think the attitude of the Church goes much deeper than pedophillia. Native people were considered non-human and their children were treated like animals. Native people had no value and those in positions of responsibility considered their children disposable. Ethics and morality only applied to white, human beings.

Whats a little road kill to a self-righteous, white supremacist?

Susan - "There are people (and we all know and love some of them) whose whole persona is built on old victimization, and not just here. Hardi and I spend most of every day trying to aim several people's eyes outta the muck they insist in wallowing in. D'ya think if they ever got off their personal soapboxes..."

Hmmm...Sounds like victimizing the victim to me. What did these kids do to deserve a mass grave? I doubt if they had much time to wallow in self-pity. I'm sorry if you think that people suck your time and energy but maybe you are offerring too little, too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:04 PM

What?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:13 PM

"There are people (and we all know and love some of them) whose whole persona is built on old victimization, and not just here. Hardi and I spend most of every day trying to aim several people's eyes outta the muck they insist in wallowing in. D'ya think if they ever got off their personal soapboxes..."

Hmmm...Sounds like victimizing the victim to me. What did these kids do to deserve a mass grave? I doubt if they had much time to wallow in self-pity. I'm sorry if you think that people suck your time and energy but maybe you are offerring too little, too late.


In that part of my post I was not referring to victims of abuse per se but to the general cultural rush to negativity that is so widespread.

But as far as sympathies for victims, there is no help for them in reinforcing their sense of continuing victimization, once they are in a safe place and can start the healing process. The healing process of course includes telling the story, but if the listener or counselor can only respond with reinforcement, the victim can stay stuck there. A guided word to the safer aspects of reality aids recovery quite a bit. (Anyone who has counseled on incest memorioes knows this.)


Back to the Pope-- since the outrage is so great, the feeling is common that whatever anyone does now is too little, too late. No one with that mindset will EVER be satisfied with ANY positive step, because it will never FEEL like "enough." But steps are, by definition, small and slow. How else does change happen without cataclysm?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Bert
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM

Well said Susan. I kind and thoughtful response to a somewhat fierce post.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Terreblanche
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:41 PM

He is the head of the only church in the world were women still have to go to a man to seek forgiveness for their sins (confession).

That must be addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 05:09 PM

Wouldn't a "pedophile" be someone who loved feet?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 05:52 PM

I'm saying I can't afford to make no donations to no Catholic charities. If you need the money that bad, wire the Pope! He's got more money than God!
Quote, Archie Bunker

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 06:09 PM

Some "popely" quotes to guide us, and the curent pope:

"Silence gives consent"

Pope Boniface VIII

"The future starts today, not tomorrow."

Pope John Paul II

"An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded."

Pope John Paul II
                                
"Anything done for another is done for oneself."

Pope John Paul II

"Every man has the right to life, to bodily integrity."

Pope John XXIII

"If God created shadows it was to better emphasize the light"

Pope John XXII

"It often happens that I wake up at night and begin to think about a serious problem and decide I must tell the Pope about it. Then I wake up completely and remember that I am the Pope."

Pope John XXIII

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 08:32 PM

Nothing gives one the moral highground quite as well as criticizing those that they feel should represent it.

Nothing makes self righteous people more angry than seeing somebody do or say something good.

Cuz mother theresa was really a selfish Nazi who wanted all gays to burn in hell and if she'd had the power she would have started a process of ethnic cleansing of some sort and she would doubtless have told rape victims to stop whinging and done her best to increase their suffering ...

And all that stuff she did in calcutta and sudan and ethiopia etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc was just in her spare time and she didn't "mean" it enough ... what a hypocrite she was yeah?

Jolly good then.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 10:45 PM

I suppose we all have a tendency to demonize. It's important to find something wrong with the other person, or something they did as a teenager, or with something their ancestors did (even if our own ancestors did it, too). If we can find something to make them look bad, and we always can if we look hard enough, then we can feel better about ourselves.

And after all, isn't that what's important, to feel good about ourselves, even if it's at the expense of others?

As lox says, nothing makes self-righteous people more angry than seeing somebody do or say something good. Well said, lox.

I apologize publicly for having been a Boy Scout, because of all those horrible things the Boy Scouts say about homosexuals. And even though I've never held those homophobic opinions and eventually parted with the Scouts because of their right-wing stances, I must hang my head in shame and never have any feeling of self worth, because I was a Boy Scout. I'm so ashamed of myself. I'll have to flagellate myself nightly for going on all those campouts as a kid, and singing "Do Your Ears Hang Low?" and cooking that homophobic foil-wrapped stew.

I dunno. All that guilt about the past misdeeds of my ancestors and associates takes too much energy. Maybe I'll just see what good I can do today, show compassion for those who have been hurt in the past, and do what I can to help them face the future. Yes, I had some friends who turned out to be sex offender priests, and I'm very sorry for the harm they caused and will do what I can to heal the people they hurt. I am ashamed and embarrassed and outraged about what they did, but I can't heal anything by wallowing in shame.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 11:05 PM

It is easy to be self righteous from the lectern of 20/20 hindsight. These are folks that seem to think they have all the answers. The journey of faith requires one to understand that it is about the trail, and the things one encounters on it. Some of these things are pleasant and joyful, some are dark, dangerous, and frightening. One can go on and on about the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church. It is a sure bet the same could be done with most religions, and most philosophical schools of thought. Remember the cultural revolution of China, an avowed atheist State, where people were imprisoned and killed because they lacked purity of thought with regard to Communism as it was being practiced.

All of that is not to mitigate the guilt of the priests, and the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church. As Joe has said, and the Pope has indicated, it was handled very badly, and the damage done to the victims is horrific. But the worst critics of the scandal still only ascribe these actions to less than 2% of the priesthood. That means 98% are out there tending to their parishes, teaching values to the kids and parents, doing acts of charity, providing first rate educations, and doing missionary work among the poorest of the poor. The same Church that many are so willing to chastise gave the world Mother Theresa, whose works are without equal, and which has spawned a whole order of folks dedicating their lives to working among the people that all others forgot. And done without proselytizing.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 12:09 AM

"He is the head of the only church in the world were women still have to go to a man to seek forgiveness for their sins (confession)."


Oh?





I don't think so!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 12:53 AM

And yes, it's true that there should be married priests, and there should be women priests, and there should be a better way of dealing with homosexuality and with sexuality in general. Unfortunately, it's the people in the Catholic Church (including the clergy, but not only them) who haven't been able to sort all that out yet.
A lot of people can't seem to understand that about churches. You just can't impose things on voluntary members of an organization and expect them to obey. You have to guide them into working things out together, and that's a process that can take a long, long time.
And waiting for that to happen can be very frustrating.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 04:05 AM

And yes, it's true that there should be married priests, and there should be women priests, and there should be a better way of dealing with homosexuality and with sexuality in general. Unfortunately, it's the people in the Catholic Church (including the clergy, but not only them) who haven't been able to sort all that out yet.


While I certainly certainly agree with that, Joe, as it happens my own Roman Catholic priest IS married and his wife is a very active part of the church. (I don't know all the details because I moved into the parish after he did. My guess is that he converted from Anglicanism round about the time the issue of women priests came up.) We had a rather bizarre weekend a while ago when he was away on business so his father-in-law celebrated the Mass.

All of which really goes to show that the average churchgoer may not be as hide-bound as we imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 04:43 AM

I doubt even the most lenient of critics would agree to as low an estimate as 2%. I think with all organisations and charities - we go along with them as long as we can.

Some of us go on for a lifetime without it pushing our buttons hard enough to discard them. In the last instance though, forgivesness is in the remit of those it has wronged, not for the rest to judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM

Joe I understand your contempt for the culture of demonisation and thank you for taking the time to explain your position on a subject that obviouly causes you much pain.

The rest of you are apologists for a situation which is completely indefencible.

The person being interviewed on UK TV said the following. "Unfortunately, the celibacy rule seems to encourage homosexuals into the priesthood"

That statement has ramifications for the Catholic Church and society as a whole which go well beyond the issue of "Paedophile Priests"

Amergin states that paedophilia is not a "sex crime". How naive and how dismissive of the children who have been subjected to the attentions of these creatures.
Is there really anyone who believes that they do not get sexual "pleasure" from their activities.........Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:26 AM

I don't think anyone is an apologist. Everyone acknowledges the present situation and past crimes are regrettable.

Realistically, the church is unlikely to ditch the celibacy qualification. An unmarried priest gets about a third the salary of a married one. And that's pretty cynical, or perhaps I mean realistic. the running costs of the priesthood would sudddenly triple.

The church is going to continue. There will always be believers. It needs to speed up changes of things that really do need changing.

Otherwise it will lose the respect of virtually everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 07:21 AM

I doubt that the catholic church will change it's position on celibacy at all.

Their view will in all probability continue to be that while times change, God's will remains the same and that changing times are a personal challenge.

Sex is believed by the church to be something legitimized by marriage and they are unlikely to change that view because of alleged increased promiscuity amongst people in general.

I say alleged as I don't agree with the view that todays generation are any more or less immoral/liberated (depending on your value judgement) than any previous generation, with the exception of a brief interlude of restraint around the beginning of thhe 20th century in the upper classes of England apparently.

There's been porn, prostitution, orgy's, fetish's, homosexuality etc etc etc going back thousands of years and the catholic church is unlikely to be intimidated by todays critics any more than it has been in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 11:02 AM

"Is there really anyone who believes that they do not get sexual "pleasure" from their activities.........Ake"

I think its about power. Without the feeling of power, there would be no sexual gratification. Thats why pedophile's need to engage in sexual acts with children. They are not sexually satisfied unless there is a young, powerless victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM

A lot of people can't seem to understand that about churches. You just can't impose things on voluntary members of an organization and expect them to obey. You have to guide them into working things out together, and that's a process that can take a long, long time.

And waiting for that to happen can be very frustrating.

AMEN!

When you are part of the leadership that does that kind of work, you also learn how precious are the people whose minds are so stuck, and how really complicated it is to lead them towards a different view where being stuck is not necessary at all. You sure don't do it by bashing them over the head with how "bad" they are for being so stuck! You learn to see where they hurt that is being so fiercely protected by their rigidity. (I'm talking about church structures, not pedophiles.)

Ever had back spasms? They hurt like a son of a bitch. They are not, usually, a result of the back injury itself but are the tired effort of the surrounding muscles that are trying to maintain rigidity-- to encase and protect the injured spot within a cage of strong muscle. They end up injuring themselves in the effort.

Well, it is just like that in the institutions we merely-human people maintain. It is true from folk clubs... to churches... to world powers. What is actually broken is always much simpler to fix, cure, or change than the rigid mass, stuck, protecting what needs to be tinkered.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 12:38 PM

At the Library we do a police background check on all potential employees and volunteers. At least one person withdrew their application when they found out we did this.

So do the schools, public and private and parochial. So do the Boy and Girl Scouts -- now. There is still a case about abuse by a Boy Scout leader in court here....

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 02:07 PM

Sorry Al, that statement about apologists was a bit of a generalisation and certainly doesn't apply to you.

Diana,sure there is a power element in child abuse,as there is in many sexual relationships, but to suggest that it is not a "sex crime" is patently ridiculous.
As Amergin is far from being a fool, the statement must have been a tactic and should be treated as such.

As far as i'm concerned there is too much double talk about paedophilia in the church and in youth organisations.
We need a proper scientific study....if that is possible in today's climate, where we hand our children over to male homosexual foster parents, in some horrific social experiment.
Today, the needs and wants of powerful minorities come before the safety and welfare of our children.

The Catholic Church has a chance with this issue to redeem itself and make a stand for decent human behaviour.

We shall not hold our breath.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 04:50 PM

...today's climate, where we hand our children over to male homosexual foster parents, in some horrific social experiment....

Oh, YEAHhhhhhhh..... that's the scary, messy stuff I was trying to recall about Ake's past posts..... a number of us went around and around with him THAT time..........

I suppose, Mudcat being what it is, here we'll go again. Unless someone closes this thread based on what I think most of us would call a "hate post."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 05:47 PM

Very Christian of you Sue.Much appreciated.

But please don't try to wriggle off the hook.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:03 PM

A study of 930 women in San Francisco showed that of those
who had been incestuously abused, 95% of the abuse had been
perpetrated by a male relative-usually the father or uncle.
    -Russell D. the Secret Trauma, Basic Books, 1986
   
A study of sexual-abuse offenders concluded that a
heterosexual adult is more likely to be a threat to children than a homosexual adult. Groth AN, Men Who Rape, Plenum Press NY. 1979

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:06 PM

I don't wish to engage in a debate on this issue. But the evidence seems to show that children are less likely to be abused by homosexuals than heterosexuals. If anyone has evidence to the contrary I would like to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: heric
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:07 PM

The Pope could maybe politely ask his Bishops if they would consider not filing evasive bankruptcies and fraudulent accountings. . . Perhaps he could loan them a few bucks?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:08 PM

PS The rights and wrongs of homosexuality and child rearing is another topic, IMO, and has been dealt with a few times on the 'cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:20 PM

Having an unmarried priesthood in the Catholic Church is a matter of discipline and tradition and economics, not doctrine. As has been pointed out there are a number of married Catholic priests - former Anglicans, or members of the Uniate churches in Eastern Europe which are a full part of the Catholic church. I have little doubt that in time the general requirement that priest should be unmarried will in fact cease to apply. It could change tomorrow for that matter, though I doubt if it will.

But the idea that paedophilia has anything particularly to do with people not being able to get married, or with people having a gay sexual orientation is not sustainable. It's far more complicated than that, and not a problem located within particular sub-groups that can be demonised.

Married men, single men, straight men, gay men, priests, teachers, lorry-drivers, parents...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:32 PM

Although denial about sexual abuse in the Church operates on many levels, one of the most difficult aspects of the dynamic for most active Latter-day Saints to believe is that an ecclesiastical leader will fail to respond appropriately when he receives a report of child sexual abuse. President Hinckley appeared to take this position when Mike Wallace asked his response to the statement: "The sociologists tell us, at the root of the problem is the fact that men in effect in your church have authority over women, so that your clergymen tend to sympathize with the men, the abusers, instead of the abused." President Hinckley countered, "That's one person's opinion. I don't think there's any substance to it. Now, there'll be a blip here, a blip there, a mistake here, a mistake there. But by and large the welfare of women and children is as seriously considered as is the welfare of the men, in this church, if not more so."1(See Chapter 3 for a discussion of this point.)

Although reliable generalizable data does not exist to confirm or deny his claim, this chapter provides anecdotal information to indicate that some bishops and stake presidents disbelieve and even punish victims, cover up for perpetrators, and, in extreme cases, harass and intimidate victims to prevent disclosures that they feel are embarrassing to the Church.

You can find a very well-researched, lengthy, discussion of the whole issue of child sexual abuse in the main-stream LDS church here.

I searched, via Google, for "child sexual abuse" (including the quotes) and these names: Buddist, Zen, Southern Baptist, Girl Scouts, Campfire, Boy Scouts, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Wicca.

In every search I found records of arrests and charges. I also realize that there are always some who will make false charges for whatever reason.

Child sexual abuse is no more a sex crime -- that is, a crime committed for sexual "relief" (if it were that masturbation and/or nocturnal emission is easily available) -- than rape is. It is a betrayal by someone in authority, an abuse of trust and power.

There is no punishment I can think of that is adequate.
Frankly, I cannot

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:37 PM

Difficult to substantiate these numbers Bruce, as apparently 90% of male abuse victims don't inform police or hospitals.
70% tell nobody including their friends and families.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:50 PM

I agree, Ake. Thing I like about kickin' it around with you is that I know what a good person you are and I'm glad we never end up in arguments with each other. I've always understood where you're coming from on the issues associated with homosexuality, and I know you care deeply for children.

It's an honour to be able to disagree with you and still maintain a friendship that outlasts threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 06:58 PM

And let it be said right now -- I have gay friends and relatives, and I am not homophobic.

I just don't like ANYONE abusing children in any way. And you really don't want to hear the suggestions some of my gay friends make about child abusers, sexual or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 07:06 PM

Thanks Bruce...you're a good friend!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 07:22 PM

"Having an unmarried priesthood in the Catholic Church is a matter of discipline and tradition and economics, not doctrine."

You're right, McGrath, and that tradition started sometime around the Middle Ages because the Catholic church didn't want to have to support wives and children. Its more economical to train priests when you can house them dormitory style and then send them out into the world alone. The Catholic church didn't always insist on celibacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 07:44 PM

Ake, I'm not ON the hook, because your ideas are not based in reality. You are putting energy into the wrong battle, if what you really want is to change an institution or protect children.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 08:05 PM

OK Susan, but you seem to have taken it upon yourself to defend the Catholic Church on this forum and they are very much on the hook.

When even US representatives of the church are stating that the celibacy rule is attracting homosexuals and causing abuse problems.

Why do you think this child abuse is occuring? Please don't mince your words...say what you think

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 08:15 PM

What would be helpful to know is whether there actually is an increase in child sex abuse in our society, or just an increase in its coming to light.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 08:37 PM

Ake, you show no sign of having read my longer, thoughtful posts. Now here's McGrath restating one of them.

I have not defended the Catholic church at all. I HAVE made observations, from considerable experience and knowledge, on church organizational matters.

What troubles me is your inability to take in information that conflicts with your mindset. Why I think abuse is occurring is why I think it has always occurred-- because there is a clearly demonstrated cycle of abuse where the powerful take advantage of the less powerful, and pass abuse down through generations.

You are so focused on one form of abuse (and so ill informed about the causes of that one form) that I think you are not able to generalize from that form and your prejudices surrounding it, to understand the phenomenon of abuse itself. This is why you are not in a position to create positive change-- for that, a little more detached flexibility will be needed.

You can learn more about how all forms of abuse occur (and can be healed) here: www.rc.org, which site you will probably be very surprised to learn has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church or religion at all.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM

I recognize the historical fact that the Roman church's requirement of celibacy for priests was propted primarily for economic reasons. Not only did the Church not want to pay for the support of priests' (and seminarians')families, they really didn't want their priests to have heirs claiming property that could remain in the hands of the Church. No "legitimate" heirs with plausible legal claims, anyway.

I also recognize that pedophilia is no more prevalent among offenders of homosexual orientation than heterosexual, and (arguably) perhaps even less so.

Still in all, I think it is entirely reasonable to assert that the celibacy rule has resulted in a proliferation of homosexual men ~ including many who are unhappy and maladjusted ~ among the ranks of today's Catholic priests, a significant number of whom have turned out to be predatory child molesters.

The celibate priesthood has always attracted young men who have been willing to deny themselves expression of their own sexuality. Is it not reasonable to assume that a significantly large number of such young men have always sensed in themselves sexual feelings that they had been taught were sinful, and that had to be denied no matter what?

I'm pretty sure that, over the centuries, the priesthood has been home to huge numbers of men ~ most of them truly celibate, and most of them fine leaders and counselors in their pastoral roles ~ whose sexual orientation was gay. Not actively so, at least not in most cases; but I think it would be fair to say that the sex that many celebate priests were not having, the impulse that they were denying themselves, was homosexual in nature.

Flashing forward to the modern world: In the 1960s, significantly large numbers of Catholic priests left the Church to get married. We did NOT see men leave the priesthood to persue sexual relationships with other men ~ why not? Is it reasonable to believe that, of the many priests suddenly deciding en masse to reject celibacy and enter conjugal relationships, all of them were straight and none were gay? Of course not. Even in the liberalized climate of the times, heterosexual married life was entirely respectable, albeit denied to the celibate priesthood, but open homosexuality was still very much verboten. When thousands of heterosexual priests were leaving, most of their homosexual brethern stayed in, some undoubtedly continuing to practice strict celibacy, but others finding ways to accommodate their desires in some sort of secretive manner.

I would argue that the cases of pedophile Catholic priests have involved disproportionately huge numbers of offenses against boys (as opposed to a relative few involving girls) for the simple reason that today's priesthood includes a similarly high percentage of men who are homosexual in orientation, if not in practice. All but a small minority are child molesters, of course; many are undoubtedly truly celibate, and those who aren't are able to be discreet and inoffensive, and certainly do not harm children.

In the contemporary industrialized world, for now and throughout the foreseeable future, the continued insistence upon an all-male all-celibate priesthood can only result in a priesthood consisting largely of men who, in their youth, believe that ~ even in the light of society's openness and acceptance of a wide range of sexual expression ~ their own sexuality must be stifled, for one reason or another ~ in many cases, I wouldn't doubt, for good reason.

While I'm sure that the priesthood will always attract a number of truly saintly candidiates who are capable of highly virtuous self-denial, I believe that even larger numbers will be young guys with serious psychological problems that won't remain bottled up for the rest of their lives: ticking human time-bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:53 PM

I have one question: Why is it that criminal charges have not been laid against the offending police? Or have they? Serious question there, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:55 PM

On TV games were pre empted, commercials delayed and a bevy of announcers that sounded like they were doing a Rose Bowl parade, spoke of the POpe in non stopglowing reverential tones of praise.

On CNN, CNBC, FOX, ABC they all glorified the pope in Yankee stadium and cooed how he has ressurected his image.

I'll tell you who ressurected it...the mogul media corp.

The guy still shields the criminal bishops from prosecution with a strict non deportation policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:00 PM

Uh, I think instead of 'police' I meant to say 'priests'.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:00 PM

BTW, does anyone else here find the thread title just a bit strange?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM

I'd like to know when they're going to be prosecuted - they seem to be above the law in that respect, although I suppose we can't expect too much justice from a religion whose most famous member was Adolf Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM

It has to do with the law, not the religion. Where is the law in all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

Good question. Where indeed? Have they perhaps been influenced in some way?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:36 PM

MikeS:

I have been asking that question lots of late. Mostly to do with child abuse in Texas (some LDS sect), the illegal dealings of the White House to do with torture, and now on this subject. The USA used to be a nation that enforced it's laws. Now, I guess the laws only get enforced if you don't have the money to pay someone off.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:56 PM

Peace: A couple of months ago there was an article in the LA Daily Journal, which unfortunately does not publish online, about an LAPD detective who was investigating a priest. The parish was pretending to give their full cooperation. The cop wanted to find a potential witness – a boy from the parish, now probably in his early twenties or something. What he didn't know was that he was looking for him under the wrong surname / nickname. So he decided to comb the neighborhood and schools within a certain radius. At a public school, he found records of a girl who interested him (I forget why.) He found her. She told him the nickname was her brother, who was living close by. When they went to talk to him, he broke down crying and "admitted" to the abuse. He had been and alter boy and his family had been longstanding members. According to the detective and the article, there was no way the parish didn't know his real name all along.

So there are police investigations.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:03 PM

.......we can't expect too much justice from a religion whose most famous member was Adolf Hitler. GUEST, Mike S.

Whatever credibility you had in this discussion disappeared with that statement. You are a bigot, whose anti Catholic bias is crystal clear. This, by the way, is the same religion that gave us John Paul, Mother Theresa, St. Francis of Assisi, and many more people in whose name more good works are done in one single minute that the likes of you will do in your entire lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Mike S
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:21 PM

Big Mick, it was a perfectly true statement, and you don't know anything about me. Ad hominem argument gets no-one anywere, it just distracts from the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:34 PM

Thanks, heric. Wasn't aware of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:32 PM

Mike S, who gratuitously threw Hitler's name into this discussion, accuses anyone else of making an ad-hominem argument? Sheesh!!!

There have been prosecutions of offending priests in various state and fedral courts in the US. Probably not nearly enough of them, but it's a gross mistake to think that the civil authorities have never been brought in.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:32 PM

Let's hope they do something about it then. There's always the nagging feeling that we are only actually seeing the tip of the iceberg though. I don't think, with the apparent levels of corruption in both the government and church, we stand an earthly chance of ever seeing satisfactoty justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM

Sorry Popp, I didn't know that.
Where did I make an ad hominem argument though? Is Hitler a member? (joke)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

The Catholic Church's most famous member in modern times is Mother Teresa, now sanctified.

I mostly let people go their own way with opinions, but if ANYone slags Bishop Romero, we WILL have difficulties. I admire that man no end.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

Jason Berry wrote the definitive book-length treatment of this scandal years ago, and even then there were several civil prosecutions to be written about. I'm drawing a blank on the title: might be "Deliver Us From Evil" or something like that ~ but you can google the author's name.

Jason is still a practicing Catholic, but that doesn't prevent him from being an appropriately harsh critic of the bishops and of Rome.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:17 PM

I'm from the Boston area & I'd have to say that the church here wasn't forthcoming with alot of info & help until the scandle grew & the mounting pressure became over baring. The churh in the beginning of the scandle's wave would not release books or other documentation but later did come to bend against their will & eventually many of the offenders were investigated. The chuch here is still paying dearly & a good number have been prosecuted & imprisoned. There's still many that need to be held accounted for though.
Given the time laspe I wouldn't but a lot of blame on the police though, at least not in my area. They've done well with what they've had to deal with. The time issue, victims not willing to come forward, lack of documentation, a resistant church, alot of deaths among the victims, criminals & witnesses & etc. It's the church's responsibility to bring the issue to a close to the satisfaction of those victims that are presently crying out for justice, relief & closure. One of the main issues is the Bishops, Arch-Bishops & Cardnials that knowing shifted & shielded these criminals from place to place effectively giving them shelter from the law & from their victims. Those criminals may be some what out side of the law's grasp now but they're not past paying a dept for their hidious behavior.
I spent my childhood & grammer school years in religious school & when I left to continue high school I never set foot in a church again until I was married & had kids of my own. It's, in my opinion an organisation that has it's pros & cons. It's in the business of selling faith to those that find a need for it & that's fine. But it could due with an overhaul as to it's purpose, aim, priorities & the means it uses to achive these goals.
Like any male dominated cultural community it will flourish & attract those men that will seek out the benifits of a male dominating group. The Boy Scouts has the same attraction, or an all boys school or the Boys Club. These are all well meaning groups with good intentions & with plenty of saints & well wishers & do gooders but they all need to police themselves for those that have have their own aggendas that are actually in opposition to the groups purpose & from those that would prey & seek to satisfy their own disires in an arena of easy pickings. The set up is like a turkey shoot.
The church did such a bad job policing themselves that they actually set up a system where they attracted the foxes & invited them into watch the hen houses & prey among the innocent. They were the ones that could do no wrong, they were beyond question, they were to be trusted above all others & they were the guides for the willing. That is the churches fault & that is the system they created & need to correct. They aren't & weren't able to police themselves. They have a good ways to go before they can fix their system & they can't fix their system until they acknowledge the harm that's been caused by their willingness to turn a blind eye, until they set the system straight, until they clear themselves of those that shuffled the criminals about, until they get on their bended knee & beg the forgiveness of those that they injured. They need to open their arms & books willingly to any & all that ask & transparency needs to be achived, willingly. The culture & climate of the priesthood also needs to come under a transformation. Alot of what happened did so under the eyes of knowing priests & clergy & much was kept silent & many turned a blind eye or didn't follow through when discouraged by superiors. They may not ever receive justice but that climate & culture needs to be reformed.
The chuch needs to bend over backwards to see that it clears itself of all this before it even begins to worrying about clearing it's good name, that should be the last of their worries.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:42 PM

I never knew about Hitler being a catholic - I have heard that he had jewish ancestry however - one of many weird things about him ...

I have heard of Maximillian Kolby, a catholic Priest who died in Auschwitz and was recognized as a saint by the church for laying down his lfe to save that of another man.

Beautiful story. Brave man.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:31 PM

Yes, Hitler was born into a Catholic family and baptized as an infant. I've never seen any indication he practiced the Catholic religion as an adult.

Let me add something for consideration. As many of you know, I was in a Catholic seminary for eight years of a 12-year program. I attended four years of high school and four years of college in the seminary of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee, and I really loved my time there and got a good education. I have to say, however, that in about my second year of college, there was a "sexual charge" to the atmosphere that seemed unhealthy. Sometimes, I wondered if I was the only straight guy in the place. That was our last year in the 6-year "minor seminary." As we prepared to move to the "major" seminary, we went through a battery of psychological tests, and we were all interviewed at length by psychiatrists. One Monday morning early in our Junior year of college, several of my classmates were missing - they were all the ones I thought of as "squirrelly" - there was just something strange about their sexuality. After that purge, the sexual atmosphere dissipated almost completely, and there was a much healthier feel to the atmosphere. I guess that didn't solve the problem completely. Out of twenty or so in my class who were ordained from my class, two have been accused of sex offenses. One is still functioning as a priest, and the other is not - as I said above, I didn't hear the whole story on either one.

I'm now in the Sacramento diocese in California, and this diocese has always had a majority of foreign-born priests. The diocese is now working with the Sacramento County District Attorney to get a former priest extradited from Mexico to face trial for sex offenses committed in the 1980's and 1990's. The man left the priesthood and fled to Mexico when the crimes were first reported.

I'm sure there have been many times when Catholic parishioners and employees have not cooperated with investigations of sex offender priests. Very often, child molesters are charming people, and people just can't believe their beloved priest did something wrong. Oftentimes, people just can't believe such horrible accusations could be true, especially when the offender is well-loved.

It's a complicated puzzle to sort out. Don't be too quick to point the finger of blame. I've had the privilege of working with churches, Scouts, and other volunteer organizations all my life. Most of the people I work with are wonderfully idealistic. There trouble is, they are often as unrealistic as they are idealistic. When they encounter crime, they are completely overwhelmed and have no idea what to do. I guess I'm still pretty idealistic myself, but my 25 years as a federal investigator also gave me a good dose of realism and a good network of law enforcement connections. There have been a number of occasions when church and Scout people have asked me what to do in various situations, and they've followed through on what I've advised. The ones who contacted me never, ever tried to cover anything up, and they were always very concerned about wanting to to the right thing. Yes, there have been coverups - but there also have been a lot of situations where people did the best they could.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:35 PM

Well said, Joe. Very.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 08:03 PM

"I've never seen any indication he practiced the Catholic religion as an adult."

Apart from perhaps the odd bit of anti-semitism.

Very good at denial, is the Vatican.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:39 PM

You continue to demonstrate that your sole purpose for being in the discussion is to throw the name of an infamous monster in, as if that one thing categorizes the entire Church. Joe continues to carry the responsible argument, and your response is to defend throwing Hitler into the mix, with not so much as a nod of the head to the examples I cited, Archbishop Romero (One of my heroes too, Bruce), and Maxmillian Kolbe. It points out that you are an anti Catholic bigot. Perhaps your bigotry is founded in an experience when you were young, or you were raised that way. In either case, your comments lend nothing to the discussion, and your credibility is shot.

There was one study done that showed the sex abuse scandal focuses on the Catholics because they are the only celibates, but that the abuse is every bit as rampant among other religious and philosophical organizations.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:49 PM

I can say this with all honesty: Hitler makes me ashamed to be human--he doesn't make me ashamed to be Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Beer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:02 PM

Were the only species in the animal chain that abuse one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:23 PM

Mick, I despise all religions equally, but not necessarily the people who practice them. If you're going to stoop to name-calling, 'anti religious bigot' would be preferable. There have been good people associated with all religions, I should imagine, and we could quote them ad infinitum, but they aren't relevant to this discussion. I can see you are never going to understand my point of view, so our discourse is now finished. I apologise for rattling your cage.

Peace: You're a good man, and you have my respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:43 PM

If you were a member, we would continue this discussion using PM's. I likewise apologize for the rhetoric, but I get damn tired of characterizations that simply ignore all the good that is done, on a daily basis, which affects people in a positive way. This good is being done by people attempting to live a life in the model of what their faith asks them to do. Your equating the religion with Nazism and Hitler, while ignoring all the good absolutely floors me. There are so many here that use any excuse to damn the Church, while never acknowledging the good done.

So let us let the conversation return to where it was..

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:22 PM

Beer:

I'm afraid abuse of same-species members is very common in some other primates as well. Not to mention canines from different packs, sometimes.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:59 PM

Brazil priest carried aloft by balloons missing
Fund-raising stunt goes awry, but supporters hopeful
updated 4:48 p.m. ET, Mon., April. 21, 2008


SAO PAULO, Brazil - A Roman Catholic priest who floated off under hundreds of helium party balloons was missing Monday off the southern coast of Brazil.

Rescuers in helicopters and small fishing boats were searching off the coast of Santa Catarina state, where pieces of balloons were found.

Rev. Adelir Antonio de Carli lifted off from the port city of Paranagua on Sunday afternoon, wearing a helmet, thermal suit and a parachute.

He was reported missing about eight hours later after losing contact with port authority officials, according to the treasurer of his Sao Cristovao parish, Denise Gallas.

Gallas said by telephone that the priest wanted to break a 19-hour record for the most hours flying with balloons to raise money for a spiritual rest-stop for truckers in Paranagua, Brazil's second-largest port for agricultural products.

Some American adventurers have used helium balloons to emulate Larry Walters -- who in 1982 rose three miles above Los Angeles in a lawn chair lifted by balloons.

A video of Carli posted on the G1 Web site of Globo TV showed the smiling 41-year-old priest slipping into a flight suit, being strapped to a seat attached to a huge column green, red, white and yellow balloons, and soaring into the air to the cheers of a crowd.

According to Gallas, the priest soared to an altitude of 20,000 feet (6,000 meters) then descended to about 8,200 feet (2,500 meters) for his planned flight to the city of Dourados, 465 miles (750 kilometers) northwest of his parish.

But winds pushed him in another direction, and Carli was some 30 miles (50 kilometers) off the coast when he last contacted Paranagua's port authority, Gallas said.

Carli had a GPS device, a satellite phone, a buoyant chair and is an experienced skydiver, Gallas said.

"We are absolutely confident he will be found alive and well, floating somewhere in the ocean," she said.

"He knew what he was doing and was fully prepared for any kind of mishap."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 12:51 AM

Big Mick - "Your equating the religion with Nazism and Hitler"

Its not as if the Catholic church made Hitler do what he did, but you have to admit that they kept very quiet and they actually profitted from the misery of the Jews. Its not as if they knew nothing about it. In fact, all churches are well known for placating the masses and covering for politicians. Are you saying that for all the good the church does, the criminality should be ignored?

In Vancouver, the Catholic church had to sell some very valuable land to pay damages to some of the victims of pedophiles. So it should be. It happened on their watch.

The Church, with the blessing of the State, has been responsible for many attrocities. Recently the Church is being accused of genocide.

"The Catholic, Anglican and United Church , and the government of Canada, operated the schools and hospitals where these mass graves are located. We therefore hold these institutions and their officers legally responsible and liable for the deaths of these children."

http://www.thecumberlander.ca/cgi-bin/show_articles.cgi?ID=611

Seems like nobody bothered to read my previous post.

I have a question for those who think this is Church bashing. If the Church isn't liable, who is? The Government of Canada? Seems to me they gave the responsibility to the Church. Lets face it, these kids were treated as if they were inhuman. Nobody cared.

Who's responsible for instilling the concept of Supremacy and who maintains that heirarchy? Why is the Vatican so wealthy and where did that wealth come from? If they care so much about people, why is there so much hunger and homelessness? Sorry Mick, the Vatican cares more about pomp than about the starving masses. There are, of course, exceptions. Not many, but there are some.

Big Mick defending the Catholic Church, is like teribus defending the Republican party.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:07 AM

Big Mick: You are always telling us what a thread is about and that we should shut up about anything else; and you even!! do it in your last post where you say this thread is all about the good thing Catholics do! Try to stay on track will you.

You're all good people, and you all have my respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:10 AM

I was horrified to find that an old class mate had committed suicide - he was facing paedophile type charges apparently. I wish I'd been more Christian and kept in touch with him, as he was very kind and decent to me and a good friend. Neither of us were catholics. Its a problem that crosses denominational lines.

Mick and I have had our differences in the past, but I can understand his indignation at the responsibity for Hitler's career being laid at the door of the Catholic Church.

Its like blaming the Quakers for Dillinger. or the Plymouth Bretheren for Haig the acid bath murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:56 AM

McGrath...."It's far more complicated than that, and not a problem located within particular sub-groups that can be demonised.

Married men, single men, straight men, gay men, priests, teachers, lorry-drivers, parents..."

Are "men" not a sub group?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:34 AM

One last thing to say here: I think Mudcat has some of the internet's more creative, agile minds posting to it. I think those minds could better employ themselves getting along and working together to discuss/solve problems. Emotional issues cause us to react and often say things that are ill-considered. (Never having done that myself . . . .) We all have areas wherein our buttons can be pushed with some definitely ardent rebukes. I think the key is to rebuke the position and not the person. It's taken me years to learn that, and I am working hard to practise what I think is a righter path than the one I used to walk.

I have some dear friends here, some of whom I slagged once or twice, and a few who slagged me once or twice. Tell ya one thing: friendship is better than enemyship. Any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM

Yeah okay WLD and Peace I hear you and I strayed off, too. It's one hell of a topic for people to try and discuss conversationally.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 11:31 AM

I'm not castigating anyone at all. Truth is I'm one of the five more miserable SOBs ever came to this site. However, change don't happen all by itself. I figure we're better off working together than being disfunctional. It's one small step, anyway.

The three 'hottest' topics on the 'cat are politics, religion and 'what is folk?'. Anytime I see that a thread is about one of those things, I know it's gonna hit the fan pretty quickly. It's easier to prevent it than clean up afterwards, imo. Besides, if our world ended tomorrow, I rather meet friends and not enemies in the next life.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 12:00 PM

I want to ask Ake (especially) to go back and re-read my posts, and try to realize the tone of compassion and concern with which they are written. I bet they don't come across that way as mere text, but ask anyone who knows me what more comes along with those words, in experiencing me in my native environment.


I also want to point out that Mudcat is so much more than the words in the threads. Right this very now, my face is full of hot, cleansing tears because of a special blessing I just got in PMs from another Catter. Someone who I think is one of my missing-brother type Catters, who I am going to send a digital recorder to, so he can send me MP3s of his wonderful songs. They happen to be Christian songs, but that's not the point-- they're really his heart.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM

Sue dear...I think I like you better when you take your halo off.

I even remember getting a virtual kiss late one night
Seems like a long time ago....:0)

Could never take anything from you personally Bruce.
Friends should be able to disagree about most topics without breaking their friendship.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 02:56 PM

Well...... I think it is more accurate to say that people tend to see a halo I know nothing about, and then think that I need to remove it.... and then they assume that I have complied with their desire.... I used to get PMs telling me how much "better" I had become, and ya know, that's really pretty presumptuous! :~) I am the same, actually, pretty much all the time.

There is still no substitute for actually getting to know another human being.

;~*

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 03:44 PM

Just to set the record straight, I was not laying the blame for Hitler's career on the Catholic Church, nor was I actually equating Nazism with Catholicism, despite their long history of intolerance, persecution and slaughtering of the Jewish people. Amongst other things, I was trying to illustrate that the actions of people, good or bad, does not necessarily depend on whether they are religious or not. Indeed, I would maintain that acts of goodness are, at least morally speaking, worth infinitely more if they are not done for religious reasons, ie 'in the name of God', but just done for the sake of doing something good or positive. It annoys me that the Church is all too willing to claim credit and responsibility for the positive acts of its members whilst 'playing down' the more negative aspects. The main reason I mentioned Hitler though, was to illustrate the Catholic Church's capacity for denial and corruption. No doubt many Catholics would take that personally - it isn't, it's just an observation. No way am I going to enter into any personal arguments with you, it isn't worth it. I really don't mind what people believe in, so long as they don't detrimentally affect me and mine with it, and so long as they don't assume some kind of moral superiority from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 05:47 PM

Well, Mike, I have to say I still don't get your logic. Nobody has denied that Hitler was baptized Catholic as a child. You, on the other hand, have made no effort to give any evidence that he was a practicing Catholic as an adult. The Catholic Church and other religions have lots of nominal members who don't have a clue what "their religion" is about.
So, where's the connection between Hitler and Catholics? I think you have totally failed to make a logical connection. Without logic, discussion is impossible.
So, what's your point?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:01 PM

Hitler's government established "state churches" by co-opting the leadership of various German churches, definitely including Protestant denominations. I honestly don't know if Catholic parishes were included in this particular Nazi-fication effort. (I only know about the Prods from reading about the heroic Lutheran theologian Dietrich Bonhoffer, who was hung for conspiring to asssinate Der Fuhrer.)

Hitler's actual religion, or at least the one that he made every effort to establish, was a sort of quasi-pagan cult of Aryanism. The public rites (Nazi rallies) were very well planned and designed, and were very effective in acquiring believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:03 PM

Diana..........."Big Mick defending the Catholic Church, is like teribus defending the Republican party".

Best laugh I've had in ages.....Thanks Diana.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:20 PM

This is starting to become a platform for anti catholic sentiments.

An objective analysis of the situation suggests, first, that the Catholic church is no worse than others when it comes to the incidence of child molesters in its ranks. Second, whatever the failings of the Catholic hierarchy in dealing with this appalling problem (and they are legion), those sins pale in comparison to the blatant hypocrisy of the Church's enemies here on this issue.

In fact, some of those adversaries inadvertently assist the process of placing the scandal in context.Approximately 5 percent of priests have a predilection toward minors. That seems consistent with other clergy who are not priests, such as Protestant ministers or rabbis.

Robert Bell,a psychologist affirmed that the percentage of abusers among Catholic priests is no higher than among Protestant ministers.

Why, then, the disproportionate focus on problems within the Catholic Church here? Is it "let's attack the catholic church".

Then there is also the status of the Catholic Church as the most visible, powerful religious institution in the world. General resentment of organized religion will often focus on the Church of Rome, the most centrally organized and hierarchical faith on earth.

Finally, many attacks centre on the tradition of priestly celibacy, in a spasm of trendy Catholic-bashing that reflects the basest sort of inconsistency. Gay activists and establishment opinion leaders unequivocally insist that homosexual identity is innate and inborn as blue eyes or left-handedness. These same enlightened thinkers then turn around and say that celibacy in the priesthood pushes prelates to paedophilia. If only priests were allowed to marry, the conventional wisdom declares, then they wouldn't even feel tempted to molest little boys.

This proposition contradicts basic liberal assumptions about gay identity.If a priest is congenitally gay how could marriage ever re-wire his orientation? This might work only if the Church sanctioned same-sex marriage for its priests, a radical demand that few critics of celibacy dare to advance.


This uncomfortable question touches another illogical position of those who want to use this scandal as an excuse to attack a traditionalist church. The same people expressing the most strident condemnation of gay priests molesting young boys, also demand public pressure to force the Boy Scouts to embrace gay scout masters – insisting that such leaders present no danger to our sons.

I feel confident that the Church will eventually clean house and deal with the problems of its clergy. But leftwing critics of the Church here may never come to grips with the obvious internal contradictions in their own irrational ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM

I don't know who Robert Bell is but if you have a citation to a credible study then I'm sure we're all with you. The practice needs to be curtailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:52 PM

Joe, my point is mostly about denial, and you illustrate it perfectly. That is precisely why discussion would be a waste of time. No offence intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 08:29 PM

What really pisses me off is these catholic paedophile priests who reckon they know what folk music is and vote republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 08:47 PM

Weelittledrummer, I remember going to see "The Singing Priests of Tagbilaran", if you haven't heard of them, look them up.

That did a fantastic rendition of "Different Drum" and also "What did you learn in school today".

A wealth of talent.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:16 PM

Joe - There are lots of logical conclusions about the connection between the Catholic Church and the Nazi doctrine.

"In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it."
--Mandatory pledge for newly appointed Catholic Bishops, as stated in the Reichskonkordat, or Concordat Between the Holy See and the German [Nazi] Reich, Article 16

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_ss33co.htm

Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, wrote:

"...it cannot be denied that a certain insufficient resistance to this atrocity [the Holocaust] on the part of Christians can be explained by an inherited anti-Judaism present in the hearts of not a few Christians."

That is not to say that all Catholics are Nazis or that all Nazis were Catholics. Ratzinger says it very nicely when he calls it insufficient resistance. In fact, there were only a small minority of Catholic priests who resisted at all. Most priests performed according to the welfare and interests of the German Reich.

Try this link

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/vatican/cpix.htm

or just google Nazi and Catholicism

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Maureen
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:20 PM

MikeS:

Hitler was an altar boy and the pope was a member of the Hitler youth. Thats one connection. But you'll never get a catholic to admit their religion had any responsibility for the holacaust.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:35 PM

It's just not worth trying.. As my old mum used to say: "There's none so blind as them as won't see."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:13 PM

MikeS, I suggest you read dianavan's post. Now I disagree with her on many issues. But at least she brings cites to the discussion. You, on the other hand, brought an off the cuff comment that can only be interpreted as equating Catholicism as being responsible for Hitler, or certainly implying such. Tell your old mum that she is a wise woman. To bad her kid didn't listen to her.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:18 PM

I read her post and agreed with it. No problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:44 PM

WindsorNut, really. If you want us to believe that the Catholic hierarchy are the real victims here - victims of bigotry while just doing what everyone else does - you really ought to bring something to back up such an extraordinary assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 11:44 PM

Not singling out one comment particularly, but above someone said:

Hitler's government established "state churches" by co-opting the leadership of various German churches, definitely including Protestant denominations ...

In fact, the Weimar Constitution that was in effect when Hitler and his party took office sanctioned a "State Religion" and it was Catholic before Hitler arrived on the scene. Some protestant churches were "tolerated," but had no widespread (public) acceptance and little political influence.

The FIRST INERNATIONAL TREATY that the new Nazi government was able to get signed was with THE VATICAN.

According to some, the primary reason for this treaty was that about the only organized objections against the new government were being voiced by a few liberal Catholic priests and congregations.

With the treaty recognizing the (conservative) Vatican version of catholicism, and making it the only form of Catholic worship allowed in the "official state religion," the resistance was effectively - and by some accounts brutally - crushed. Giving the Vatican full authority over the German church allowed the "church" to purge any priests not following the "official religion" which - almost incidentally from the standpoint of the church - eliminated organized opposition to the new government's "domestic policies."

In other words, Hitler "played them like a bull fiddle" and the Vatican was willingly (or stupidly?) complicit.

(One of the problems with extreme conservatism is that it's so easy, once one knows their mantras.)

Relations between the Nazi regime and Rome were sufficiently cordial that the Vatican is the only foreign power to send an official representative to Hitler's annual birthday party/celebration for the next six years according to documents and photos at several sites.

Given the emotions and "self-serving" histories extant, it's nearly impossible to be absolutely sure than any one - or few - sources are more accurate, or offer "deeper meaning," than any of the others, but the documentation on the above appears credible - to me. In another hundred years maybe I'll have a better understanding of it all.

Hitler was no more a "catholic" than [[CENSORED] is a "born again" christian.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 12:11 AM

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
Hitler, 1941.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:11 AM

MikeS, I hold no brief for the Catholic Church, but what you are suggesting is borderline insane. In fact you are over the border with your passport stamped.

The Popes have stood for some pretty mad things in their various times, still do - that much must be faced. However first and foremost - they do stand for the teachings of Christ in the New Testament.

These latter cannot be squared with what Adolf Hitler did. Chalk and Cheese.

Hitler said many things, most of his pronouncements were dishonest and cynical. He was more than a little crazy and his agenda shifted. But The Sermon on the Mount and its injunctions - even at his most calculating - were never really going to be for him.

Hitler had a constituency of what must have been decent folk at one time. I suspect he had to lull as many of them as he could, those that he couldn't actually corrupt. I suspect that lies at the heart of his 1941 pronouncement.

Also Catholic means Universal in another less frequently used sense. He was cynical and intelligent enough to be ambiguous. He had plans for world domination.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:42 AM

Speak until your blue in the face, nothing will change the fact the catholic church is the largest and most respected faith on earth.

Accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:28 PM

I think Buddhism might scupper that claim Windsor, but what do I know? I'm a lunatic & nothing but a perfidious Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:05 PM

PoppaGator said "Hitler's government established "state churches" by co-opting the leadership of various German churches" Is that not what they did in England much earlier when the Anglican church was set up:)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:05 PM

I certainly don't mind listening to rational and documented criticism of the Catholic Church, but it's hard to carry on any sort of discussion with somebody who just keeps asserting information without documentation. It's nice that you finally came through with at least a quote, Mike. That makes at least a start. This page gives a long list of quotes from Hitler that seem favorable to Christianity, so I guess it's fair to say he claimed to be a Catholic. Still, Mike, your implication was that Hitler did what he did because he was Catholic; and that one cannot expect justice from the Catholic Church because it once had a member named Adolf Hitler. You still have failed to show a causal relationship, a logical connection. "Guilt by association" is not generally considered to be a valid logical argument.

I haven't seen evidence that would indicate that the Catholic Church actively promoted Fascism and National Socialism to any great extent, although there were ultra-nationalist Catholic groups in Croatia and other places that certainly did. The Catholic policy at the time was to attempt to coexist with national governments, and that included carrying on diplomatic relations with dictators - and made for the Catholic Church having some strange bedfellows at times. I don't buy claims that Pope Pius XII supported the Nazis - but he certainly was a disappointment in his failure to oppose them strongly. He was a career diplomat, and it appeared he tried to deal with the Nazis and Fascists with diplomacy. The world needed a hero at the time, and it's clear that Pius XII was no hero. That's why I oppose the proposal that Pius XII be named a saint. I don't think he was a bad man - but the Church and the world needed more than mediocrity at the time.

There is one thing I can say in defense of the Catholic Church and Pius XII with regard to its relationship with Hitler - In 1937, Pope Pius XI published an encyclical letter, Mit brennender Sorge (with burning sorrow), addressed to the German people. A letter may not sound like much, but it's about the most powerful weapon Popes have nowadays. This letter, which was apparently written by Vatican Secretary of Eugenio Pachelli (later Pius XII) (click), expressed strong opposition to Hitler and his policies. In 1937, the United States had a far more cordial relationship with Hitler than the Vatican had, so I think it's a big stretch to accuse the Catholic Church of supporting Hitler or of responsibility for the Holocaust. Certainly, the Catholic Church and all of Europe and America should have done more to oppose Hitler and the Holcaust - but failure to oppose is quite different from active support.

John Paul II is not one of my favorite popes, but I have to admire his courage in opposing the Marcos regime in the Philippines and later the Communists of Eastern Europe. If Pius XII had shown that sort of moral strength, the Holocaust might never have happened. Maybe John Paul learned his lesson in World War II.

I consider pacifism to be part of my Catholic faith, although I acknowledge that most Catholics are not pacifists. I have to say, though, that Hitler and the Holocaust shake my faith in pacifism. The British and the Catholics tried appeasement, and failed miserably. What finally defeated the Nazis, was warfare - much as I hate to admit that. I suppose that was the essential failure of Pope Pius XII: for all intents and purposes, he was a pacifist - and his pacifist approach failed to stop the Nazis and the Holocaust. All of us who claim to be pacifists, need to examine that failure and learn from it. John Paul II apparently did. So did Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela, and Martin Luther King.

Windsor Knot, Islam has recently replaced Catholicism as the largest faith, and I'd venture a guess that Buddism may well garner more respect than any other. I've gone to Mass at least once a week all my life (and I'm at church half a dozen times a week), but I have more respect for the Dalai Lama than I have had for any pope since John XXIII.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:31 PM

Anyone motivated enough to do a little research?
Did Jeffrey Dahmler have any church affiliation?
Ted Bundy?
John Wayne Gacey?
We may be missing any number of denominations that should be identified as bastions of pure evil on the basis of one person who was affiliated with them, or was seen attending one of their services on some occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM

You're obviously an educated man with a good heart Joe, thanks for a sensible and sensitive reply. My original comment concerning Hitler was not meant to imply a causal relationship, but to illustrate that if the Church were capable of denying that Hitler's Catholic upbringing and education had nothing to do with his anti-semitism and apparent religious fervour, they could hardly be trusted to come clean about the odd buggered choirboy unless they were absolutely forced. European anti-semitism was already rife well before Hitler exploited it, and it originated in Christianity, not Hitler. It is (merely) my opinion that Hitler was carrying on where Torquemada left off - ridding society of (mostly) Jews on behalf of "God". I think the connection is well beyond the realms of coincidence, albeit that my opinion may be from beyond the borders of insanity.

An interesting observation on Catholic education though: I've a large proportion of friends, a sister, and a partner who aren't stupid, and went to various Catholic schools - so far none of them knew Hitler was a Catholic, and none of them had the faintest idea who Torquemada was. Make what you will of that.

Technically I'm not actually Jewish by the way, but I do have a bit of Polish background that I feel very strongly about.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:53 PM

Sorry, that should read 'anything to do with his anti-semitism'..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 09:29 PM

An interesting study from 1990 and some startling past quotes from some Bishops and other folks in power positions on the topic about Molesting Priests:


http://ffrf.org/timely/epidstudy.php

Sorry, forgot to add my name, Ed T, to the last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 09:42 PM

Thanks Ed; utterly sickening, and not surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:45 PM

First, I respect people of faith, Catholic and other religions.

While I have read of immense historic wrongs committed under the name of religion, I have seen in my life much good done by the many followers. With a few minor exceptions, faith is a source of inspiration, promise, and peace to many persons and societies worldwide. I would not wish this deminished for any follower.

I was a once a Catholic, but many years ago switched to another Christian faith, in real disgust with the hierarchy of this church.., the uncaring attitude, and inaction in dealing with a serious rot from inside it's ranks. Specifically, the sexual abuse of children for many generations. I could not sit inside a structure, or follow leaders who supported such by its knowing inaction.

I don't know why some, (possibly many), priests abuse children, mainly young boys. But, to me it is not the issue. The issue is the uncaring and unchristian actions by the governance of this church by failing to deal promptly, decisively, and responsibly with these persons and crimes. And, also the failure to show genuine (and yes, Christian) compassion and support for the unfortunate victims. Many victims have much internal strife and pain (I know a few of them, and have heard directly of their pain).

Too little, too late sums up my views on much of the recent initiatives by the Catholic church hierarchy. I submit that to protect those from inside, it has strayed far from Christian values and has lost the respect and support of many in the process. I am included in this group. But, this should not be mistaken as disrespect for the followers of the Roman Catholic religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 10:57 PM

Someone submitted the Pope Soap On A Rope ordering site a while back.
It seems that it is no longer available. So, act like scrooge with what you have left As they say on the order site: " Just scrub away with the sacred suds and you'll soon be gleaming with goodness and ready for another day of sinning".

But, they still have supplies of the Penguin Shower Radio:)


http://www.otherlandtoys.co.uk/product1128/product_info.html?prod=1128

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 11:20 PM

Sadly, some people will see disrespect whether or not it's there..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:17 AM

Just one little extract from Ed's study.
"90% of child abuse by Catholic priests involves the abuse of boys"
As another study says that 70% of sexual abuse of boys is never reported to even family or friends, I will make no further comment other than to echo another posters phrase.

"None so blind as those who do not wish to see".....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Dicky Bow
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:17 AM

I agree that pedophile priests should be hounded out, but are they the only institution guilty of this despicable act?.
There is an ongoing investigation in one of the British Channell Islands involving both pedophilea and murder, and was there not a Scottish Island also implicated for the same crime a few years ago, all insitutions both religious and chartiable have been guilty of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:37 AM

I'm astonished by the way the Catholic Church - bishops, priests, cardinals, pope - keep lecturing others about their behaviour, when they have themselves assisted the tormentors and rapists of children, moved them from parish to parish and orphanage to orphanage, and covered up their actions.

And yes, the Vatican was at the centre of these cover-ups.

In Ireland, the very wealthy church bullied the government into agreeing to pay for its abuses. So the taxpayers of Ireland have to pay for these rich rapists - *and* listen to them preach at others!

Their arrogance and immorality is unconscianable.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

Lats say since the 50's, it became known that teachers are abuseing their scholors (and some likely did). Would the reaction of the school officials and public have been the same as with "the Church"?

Would the teacher not have been promptly separated from the children by officials until the matter was cleared up? What would we say if school officials merely transferred them to another school? Or, if schools failed to adsress cases of child sexual abuse for may years? Would citizens and the media not clamour for action?

Why lower expectations for the Church by authorities and otherwise caring people?

Recentlty in Texas, the state moved decisively to protect children suspected of being abused by a religeous order. Does this mean society has learned something, is it an isolated case, or is there a double standard in play?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Dicky Bow
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM

All istitutions are guilty and covering up the facts are par for the course, English public schools, all of the forces, it is human nature, and how many on this site are snow white.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:29 PM

Information from a Canadian government site:

http://www.ps-sp.gc.ca/res/cor/sum/cprs200405_1-eng.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:19 PM

A recent news:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?k=95150&id=6e708fe8-44c4-4bdf-baff-8772411ef33f




http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_7_28/ai_n6244813

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0840059620080412


http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/goodfather/sexualabuse.html

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:22 PM

Mike S. - It seems that I've always known that Hitler was raised Catholic. Your post is the first I've heard of any Catholic attempt to deny that Hitler was born and raised Catholic. I don't know if I learned of Hitler's Catholic roots in Catholic grade school, or in the Catholic seminary where I attended high school and college - but it must have been in one of the two places. Hitler was born in Austria, and Catholicism was the state religion. I was also taught that once one was baptized Catholic, one was always a Catholic - even excommunication does not constitute total removal from the Catholic Church, since Baptism and the other sacraments cannot be reversed. I'm sure some Catholics would deny Hitler's Catholic upbringing - but my Catholic education made no attempt at such denial. And since my education was in a seminary, that's a fairly official Catholic education.
Still, Hitler is the very antithesis of the Catholic faith that I was raised with. I was taught that the essence of the teachings of Christ was love of God and love of neighbor. That doesn't seem to jive with the essence of the teachings of Hitler, does it? It also doesn't seem to jive with pedophilia.

Dicky has a point when he says that all institutions are guilty and that covering up is par for the course. It seems to me that, no matter how noble its stated purpose, the primary function of an institution is self-preservation. Maybe "primary function" isn't quite accurate - but I think it is correct to say that every institution, just like every living creature, has a "primal urge" for self-preservation. That "primal urge" can at times be more powerful than any other force within an individual or institution. It taks a lot to overcome this urge for self-preservation and seek a higher purpose. I think that's what Jesus meant in John 15 by saying "No one had greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends." I think it's harder for institutions to deny self-preservation than it is for individuals. I think it's safe to say that in general, institutions are corrupt - or at least they have an almost irresistable tendency to be corrupt.

Institutions, including churches, are run by executives. In the Catholic Church, those executives are the bishops and the Pope. Usually, executives tend to embody their institutions, including all the faults of the institutions - and that pesky self-preservation instinct. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have met very few executives I really liked or trusted. Their primary concern is always their institution. Not only that, executives tend to deify themselves and their institutions, and they fail to see their own shortcomings (claim infallibility?).

Considering what I think of institutions, you'd think I would want to throw out the lot of 'em, or at least not associate myself with any of them. I have a fairly negative view of the Catholic Church as an institution, so you'd think I ought to leave it if I had the slightest shred of integrity.

I think that would be a mistake. We need institutions, even if they ARE corrupt. They are necessary tools for getting things done - but we must remember that institutions are merely tools. Maybe it's not just executives who deify institutions - I think society as a whole tends to deify its institutions, and I think that's wrong. I also think that society tends to identify members with an institution, and that's also wrong. The Catholic Church has had a serious problem with child molesters, and that's deplorable. I'm a Catholic - but does that mean I'm a child molester? And to what extent am I responsible for the molestation that took place? Am I obligated to withdraw from the institution because other members have done deplorable things? Is Adolf Hitler my "compadre" because he and I were both raised Catholic?

Yes, I do think I have a share in the responsibility for the wrong done in the name of my Catholic Church. The bill for child molestation in my diocese comes out to a million dollars per parish, and I know that a sizeable chunk of my contribution is going to pay that bill. I know it's much harder to take pride in being a Catholic nowadays, than it used to be. But still, it's my church, and I'm not about to leave it to the child molesters and fundamentalists.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:14 PM

Joe, I never claimed there was a Catholic attempt to deny that Hitler was born and raised Catholic. I was talking about anti-semitism & I think you know that.

And for what it's worth, I don't see how you can possibly share any responsibility for the atrocities committed by either the Catholic Church or its members.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:22 PM

I think you ought to take another look at your posts, Mike. What's this "denial" you're talking about?

Since the second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church had done a pretty good job of admitting all of the ills in its history - the Spanish Inquisition, anti-Semitism, and pedophilia. But your posts make it look like Catholics deny Hitler was Catholic. I do agree, however, that there also were coverups of the pedophilia and other matters.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM

I'm sorry if you found my posts misleading.

The first paragraph of my post 23 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM explains the denial I'm talking about.

"if the Church were capable of denying that Hitler's Catholic upbringing and education had anything to do with his anti-semitism and apparent religious fervour, they could hardly be trusted to come clean about the odd buggered choirboy unless they were absolutely forced."

(forgot my name)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:28 PM

Stll, Mike, you're putting some pretty heavy spin on things - or at least you're painting the Catholic Church as far more monolithic than it actually is. I heard talk a lot of talk about pedophilia in the 1970's, and Catholic bishops spent millions back then on treatment programs for pedophile and alcoholic priests - it's just that the programs didn't work. I've also heard Catholic scripture scholars discuss whether there is an anti-semitic tone to the Gospel of John. John Paul II gave more than one public apology fgor the participation of Catholics in the Holocaust.

And yes, you can make the "too little, too late" argument and you would be correct - but no apology and no reparation would ever be adequate for the evil done by the long history of anti-Semitism, or for the lives ruined by child molestation.

I'd like to think we've conquered anti-Semitism, but I think it has arisen again in recent years - partially (and wrongly) rationalized as a response to Israeli militarism. And the fact remains that nobody has come up with a way to end or even deal with pedophilia. It is a horrible problem, and we're just beginning to understand it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:52 PM

Joe - I didn't know that about JPII, I must admit. Can you point me at anything?

Yes, I'm being a bit simplistic I admit, and obviously I've no personal argument with you, I do hope that's crystal clear. I wouldn't pretend to know the solution to the child molesting problem, but I do think offenders from a position of trust should have harsher penalties imposed, and certainly be prevented at any cost from even having a chance do re-offend.

Incidentally, it's time someone pointed out that there is a difference between paedophilia and child abuse. They are not the same thing and are every bit as seperate as Catholicism and Nazism. Paedophiles are not necessarily child abusers and vice versa. I'm making no point here other than expressing irritation at the constant misuse of the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:09 PM

Mike, this Google search will lead you to plenty, including this speech JPII gave at Yad Vashem in 2000. I didn't always like John Paul II because I considered him too conservative, but the Yad Vashem speech is John Paul II at his best.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:47 PM

Thanks Joe, interesting and enlightening. Pardon the spelling in my last post, I was in a hurry.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 11:15 PM

It seems reasonable that the Roman Catholic church's actions were based on a hierarchy's attempts at self preservation.

But a fair question is a self preservation of what?

Preservation of the Gods work, God's directives and God's words...the core purpose for this church to exist? Likely not.

More likely is the preservation of an established organization, the church hierarchy, and "dyed in the wool" approaches? Preservation of vested posts and interests? Preservation of finances? Preservation of authority? Added to this, is likely elitism, smugness.

I submit it just as reasonable to speculate that actions resulted from a mere attempt to avoid any negative impact to persons in the responsibility chain, including those in positions of authority. Additionally also the allegiance to potentially guilty of offenses? Who knows how high in the organization structure this nasty stuff reached.

Logically, one would assume that self preservation would also factor the importance of maintaining a committed and faithful congregation.

While it may not be difficult to keep an older (traditionally more obedient) congregation, and those who put church allegiance and blind faith at the forefront. But, on the longer term, this group is shrinking, and not being replaced by youth in the developed Christian world. While the sex impropriety is only one factor, I submit it is an important one. Many ptential new recruits are free thinking, resourceful and knowledgeable.

So, what is puzzling to me is the lack of logic in determining a course in the preservation the long term interests of this church.

After weighing the cost of doing the right thing, (by surrendering those accused to authorities for a fair hearing, lets say the 3 to 5 % of priests),versus the spiritual, versus the cost to reputation and congregation by not taking this course, it seems like a no brainier. Added to this is the danger that not taking aggressive and careful action would likely contribute to even more offenses and added disgrace upon the church.

A good question is what in the world were they thinking? That no one was watching?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 02:45 AM

They were thinking they better cover their butts or they wouldn't be able to ...

preserve their finances, their way of life and their heirarchy of power.

Which is exactly why they instituted celibacy in the first place. They didn't want the offspring of priests to claim any inheritance from the church. Its all about financial security and the preservation of the Vatican. The Vatican has been corrupt for a very long time.

That is not to say all Catholics are corrupt. Misguided would be a more polite way of describing those who adhere to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:07 AM

You're right, Diana - the American bishops acted very much like the executives of Enron - for most of them, covering their butts was their main priority. This entire scandal is disheartening to all of us Catholics. I have read all I could find on the matter, trying to come to an understanding of what happened - and I'm still not satisfied. Three bishops that I admired - Rembert Weakland, Richard Sklba, and Roger Cardinal Mahoney - seem to have behaved less than admirably in this scandal. When Weakland retired in disgrace (click), my friend Sister Esther said sadly, "Joe, he was one of ours." He was one of the few liberals remaining among the American bishops, and we felt he had betrayed us.

Still, it's our church - it doesn't belong to those bishops. And the scandal has given rise to a steady barrage of attacks on our church from the outside. We were betrayed by our leaders and priests, and it was our Catholic children who were molested. And yet every Catholic has to shoulder the blame and the cost of this scandal.

Whether adhering to the doctrine of the Catholic Church is being "misguided" is another matter. Most of that doctrine hasn't changed since 300 AD, long before the church had the corporate power structure it later developed. As for the structure, I think it's a necessary evil - but it's not the structure (or the authority figures) that I believe in. It's my church, and I'm not ready to abandon it to the miscreants.

Oh, and this may surprise people. As a Catholic, I don't obey anybody, and I don't respect people in authority unless they earn my respect. I think my own thoughts - and my thoughts and words are not always in agreement with the Powers That Be. When I was employed by the Catholic Church to teach religion, I was a little more careful to stick to "official teaching," but I was able to do that without compromising my own values. As a paid (and currently unpaid) religion teacher, I did not (and do not) feel any particular restriction on my "academic freedom." I suppose I may be a secondary casualty of this scandal. I was laid off two years ago for budgetary reasons.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:11 PM

It would seem that power corrupts, regardless of religion. Thinking about it though, I'm not altogether sure I'd want to live in a world where it didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 06:16 PM

Another question, and this does not relate to theology:

Is the Catholic church a "church of the people", or is it totally controlled by a closed corporate structure?

If it were a private company, I could understand how a few at the top had absolute control. But, even a governing board of a cororation has to answer to in some way to a body of shareholders.

So, who does the church answer to (on Earth, that is), and what influence do lay members of the church have, if any? Are all matters determined by the priests, bishops, cardinals and Pope? Is there no opportunity to have any influence beyond this internal structure?
If so, could this not the essence of the problem? If not so, can anyone explain the structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:21 PM

As far as I can see, from the outside of it, the Catholic Church is a business - a large and unscrupulous one. To a non-believer the spiritual wrapping paper is meaningless, and their aim, past and present, seems to be power and wealth via control and influence. By necessity though, the view from within is very different, obviously - I appreciate that, and am still trying to understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:50 PM

Well, the Catholic Church is very much a local operation, although outsiders and fundamentalist Catholics don't see it that way (bishops and popes may not see it that way, either). Yes, there is a hierarchical power structure that links the diocesan organizations with Rome - but the day-to-day operation of an ordinary parish is very much a function of the local community. If I feel my local parish is too conservative or too liberal, I go to another one that suits me better. In general, things in a parish are done by consensus. If the pastor gets dictatorial, the people drag their feet. It doesn't always work wonderfully - our pastor recently failed to renew the contract of a well-loved school principal, and he did it without consulting anyone until after the deed was done. Most of the "movers and shakers" in the parish would have advised against the firing. I'm friends with both the principal and the pastor, and I can see both sides of the issue. But the pastor lost a number of friends (and probably some contributions) in the matter.

From the standpoint of a local parish, functions of the pope and bishops are largely ceremonial. The bishop comes once a year to do confirmations, and otherwise he mostly leaves us alone. We get our insurance and construction financing through the diocese, and there are diocesan accountants and lawyers and personnel boards to handle business services for the parishes. Priests are assigned by the bishop, or by their religious order if they are religious (so that's a significant matter that is beyond local control). In our diocese, pastors are appointed for 12-year terms.

Finances are handled mostly on a local basis, although we do have an assessment of about 10 percent that we pay to the diocese. I don't know how much dioceses pay to Rome, or if Rome exists completely on endowments. The Vatican does have extensive investments. I understand that money comes mostly from the Pope's loss of the Papal States, when Italy was unified in the 1870's. Much of the fabled wealth of the Catholic Church is in the form of buildings that are expensive to maintain, and museum artifacts that are on display for the public. I think I like it that way - I'd hate to see the Pieta in the hands of a private collector, and I really enjoy visiting beautiful old churches (although I'd rather worship in a smaller, more intimate church where I can see and hear). From my observation over a lifetime of close association with Catholic institutions, I'd say that in general, the spending habits of the Catholic Church are not extravagant, and a lot of money is spent on assistance to the poor. I've done a lot of volunteer building maintenance work for Catholic institutions in my life, mostly because the institutions can't afford to pay for maintenance and keep letting things fall apart.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:19 AM

What seems amazing to me is how some of the priests in question could move from lower positions in the church to positions of additional power
after allegations were made. I suspect their influence in the hierarchical power structure contributed to the dismal lack of meaningful action throughouit the decades.

Joe mentioned some fairly responsible screening that he experienced. Seems odd that the same scrutiny did not extend to those identified by victims early in their career.

Blow is an example of a priest that even was promoted to a Vatican position, even after his acts were reported.

http://tribes.tribe.net/189be8fb-b353-4620-8fd7-812104a604b6/thread/6e64d0d0-b857-4bd9-b9b7-9d7f794b1374

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 12:39 PM

That is what invariably happens in hierarchical structures, and more so in 'steep-sided' ones. Human nature will always transcend artificial ideals, and corruption would seem to be unavoidable. However, historically it's those structures and ideals (not necessarily religious ones) that have given rise to (probably) all human achievement, (or at least what most humans perceive as achievement, that being the only reference we have) as well as our worst atrocities. To go a step further (as a qualified lunatic) I would propose that 'good' and 'evil' are inseparable consequences of one another, however they are brought about.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:36 PM

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."         Albert Einstein

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."         Henry Thoreau

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."         Blaise Pascal


He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done. Leonardo da Vinci

If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, an it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?--Alexander Solzhenitsyn (The Gulag Archipelago)

If you know that a thing is unrighteous, then use all dispatch in putting an end to it--why wait till next year?--Menicius

There is no evil that does not offer inducements. Avarice promises money; luxury, a varied assortment of pleasure; ambition, a purple robe and applause. Vices tempt you by the rewards which they offer.--Seneca

When you use bad means to get good ends, you ruin the ends. You find evil in the end that you introduced into the means.--Joseph Jean Lanza del Vasto ("The Principle is to Unity of Life" in Peace is the Way)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM

"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."

(Eli Wallach in 'The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.'

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:57 PM

MikeS
Could you, bycance, be suggesting that the priest-sex scandal eventiually resulted in some good, that being some change in the Roman Catholic church?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:58 PM

The trouble is, objectively defining good and evil is like trying to strike matches on a wet haddock. I forget which of the great philosophers said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:01 PM

"The trouble is, objectively defining good and evil is like trying to strike matches on a wet haddock. I forget which of the great philosophers said that."

Same guy wot said the thing about striking wet matches on a dry haddock.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:06 PM

"Could you, bycance, be suggesting that the priest-sex scandal eventiually resulted in some good, that being some change in the Roman Catholic church?"

I wasn't specifically suggesting that, but it's not impossible. Perhaps they'll lose a lot of credibility, perhaps they'll clean up their act. I'm biased though; I think powerful religions are inherently dangerous institutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:21 PM

I suspect that significant change only results from a major threat to the hierarchical structure, its power or resources ($).

Bad press coverage and the loss of a few million parishners and dollars is likely not really much of a threat to the top, (though possibly it makes some "uncomfortable enough" to make minor "smoke and mirror" adjustments to keep the faithful happy and make it seem proactively reactive).

I suspect that, due to the nature of religeon, the rank and file will though embarassed and bruised, remain spiritually and organizationally (not much choice there) comitted to the hierarchical center. After all, what choice would there be to impact change, other than leaving, that is?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:31 PM

Ed -

Exactly - and in some places they could be worse off in a material sense if they left and were in the minority, so they aren't likely to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM

As for good and evil.

Hitler, while intelligent, was truly an evil man. However, can you see wisdom in his quotes, that have been used by others, for other reasons of course?



It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.
Adolf Hitler

The great mass of people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.
Adolf Hitler

Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.
Adolf Hitler

What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.
Adolf Hitler

The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force.
Adolf Hitler

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.
Adolf Hitler

By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.
Adolf Hitler

Who says I am not under the special protection of God?
Adolf Hitler

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
Adolf Hitler

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 03:07 PM

We'd probably never have had all that bother if he'd been an agnostic... but then we wouldn't have had the baby-boom either..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:08 PM

polish proverbs

A good appetite needs no sauce.

Innocence itself sometimes hath need of a mask.

Innocence plays in the backyard of ignorance.

Watch the faces of those who bow low.

Under capitalism man exploits man; under socialism the reverse is true.

a duck with three wings and a loaf of bread, is brother to the turkey.

only someone with nothing to be sorry about, smiles at the rear of an elephant.

when the wolf is chasing your sleigh, throw him a cookie but don't stop to bake a cake.

a truly wise man never plays leap frog with an unicorn.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 04:17 PM

Excellent :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 05:18 PM

Ed, I'm sure that a number of the priests guilty of pedophilia, went through the same rigorous psychological screening I went through in the seminary. The screening helped sort out some really weird people, but it left behind a few who ended up as child molesters. Others were identified as child molesters and given extensive, state-of-the-art treatment. Both the screening and the treatment were thought to be sure-fire methods of eliminating the problem of child-molester priests, and both failed - at least to some extent. Still, I think it's at least somewhat reassuring that some Catholic authorites were trying to do something, way back in the 1960's.

During this discussion, I've begun to wonder another thing: the priest-molester scandal has raised the amount of compensation to about a million dollars per victim. In the past, victims in our Sacramento diocese were given $25,000 to $40,000 and offered counseling, and the offender priest where ordinarily suspended from the ministry and referred to the District Attorney for prosecution - and in our area, the system worked fairly well. Then the Diocese of Orange gave a million dollars per victim, and several of our already-compensated victims from Sacramento sued for more compensation and we ended up paying a million dollars for every complaint.
I certainly don't deny the seriousness of the offense, but no amount of money is adequate compensation and no amount of money can heal the harm done. In addition, the compensation is being paid for by parishioners, not by offenders. The compensation is being taken out of the funding for soup kitchens and youth programs and schools.

OK, so now we have a situation where parishes are supposed to report any suspected offense to law enforcement authorities - which I think is something that must be done. The trouble is, most offenses are going to coast a parish a million bucks. If I'm going to report something that's going to cost me a cool million, don't you think I'm going to want to at first assure myself that the report is true? So, we have created a situation where there's a heavy cost to a bystander for doing the right thing.

Catholics have been badly hammered for questioning the amount of compensation, so "the sky's the limit" has become the rule. I agree with the need for compensation and for punsihment of offenders, but what's a rational way to deal with all this?

As for anything good coming out of this scandal, I think it has mad a lot of Catholic laity, priests, and nuns think twice about trusting upper management.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 08:44 PM

Joe,

This is what seems puzzling.

As you say, in some cases priests identified as child molesters were given extensive, state-of-the-art treatment. However, there seems ample evidance that in many other cases many others were merely transferred to another parish, with no warning to the parishners, or peromoted to other positions of authority within the church.

Does anyone really have an explanation why, if this knowledge was present? Surely this was neither caring, or responsible, or anything to be proud of, regardless of ones faith.

I suspect that, added to the severity of the offense, by those in authority, in the awards, judges took into account the failure of the church to heed early signs of molestation, to report it to the authorities, or to take reasonable measures to stem the harm to children from inside.

The opportunity to stem the damage was before legal actions, not after the huge settlements you mention (I suspect mainly for fear of future legal actions).

I note in some cases that the settlements were not voluntary made by the church until after a few rigorously contested cases failed (in some cases, parishes and Rome tried to lay total blame on the offending priests).


Maybe if the church and parishes reached out earlier and more compassionately to those molested by their priests, thay would now have more funds for other charities?

I approiciate that parishes must dig deep. Would it not be reasonable for Rome to financially assist, since they were not innocent bystanders of this mess through the many decades.

BYW, the parishes were always legally obliged to report sexual impropriety to authorities, not just recently. One would have done this in other aspect of ones lives, why not when priests were involved?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 11:13 PM

A million dollars doesn't seem a very high price to pay. It shouldn't have to come from those who are outside the sphere of blame though. Is the Vatican still the world's richest state? I believe it has been so.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:52 AM

Catholics have been badly hammered for questioning the amount of compensation, so "the sky's the limit" has become the rule. I agree with the need for compensation and for punsihment of offenders, but what's a rational way to deal with all this?

Well, the way our denomination has dealt with it has been to face rising premiums for the Church Insurance Company's liability coverage-- to the point where many small parishes doing a lot of good works in their communities (and have never had an abuse allegation) have had to close. The premiums strip them of funds for staff; as the congregations age it's less and less able to pick up the slack and do ministerial work formerly done by seminary-trained clergy.

If all compensation went to victimn recovery I wouldn't question it, but how much goes to lawyers? How much is punitive? Sure, the punitive damages lend supportive pressure to higher reporting, better church policies, etc., but must they also lead to a breakdown of systems that had been working well?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:05 PM

"Must they also lead to a breakdown of systems that had been working well"

Maybe there is a variety of views and perspectives on this statement?

Where I live there have been three RC churches closed, and some others merged due to declining numbers attending church and fewer paying the bills. Some other demominations similar issues, but not as broad.

But, there are volunteer groups springing up to do the similar good works like feeding the poor etc. (other churches, charities and community groups).

Like with most court proceedings, lawyers always
get their hefty share.

Maybe if the RC church and parishes had not put these folks through the full legal hoops in the beginning, and set up independant avenues to reasonably address their concerns, more compensation could have gone directly to the folks violated on their watch? I suspect the lack of compassion pushed some to bitterness and maximized the amounts requested when lawyers got involved.

Pay me now, or pay me more later seems to ring a bell in this case?

Whether a RC parish was involved directly or not, the way these matters evolove is all parishes and members of the church (save the Vatican, that is) bear the cost... financial and non-financial.

Just my take on this aspect, from looking back on the happenings.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM

More anti-RC venting. (I am not RC.)

My denomination does background checks and psych evals at several points in the process toward ordination. Also required is anti-sexual abuse training (as well as anti-racism training). These not only provide another screening opporuntiy, but specific training in how to spot potential abuse in the organizations in which they will work, and prevent it. Also how to handle it if it IS reported. ALL abuse.

Sunday School teachers, anyone who will work with children, must have state background check in hand and attend same training.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 01:20 PM

Training in a system that's deeeply flawed does't correct the problems inherent to the sysem.

The costs, like Ed T said above & I fully agree with, could've been kept lower & the distaste in the mouth could've been kept frrom such bitterness was caused by the refusal by the church to investage themselves & to aid athorities in their legal search for those documents that showed how the system shuffled around child predators. They actually fought to protect themselves, their system, their predators, their assets behind a sacred vail all at an additional cost to their victims. May they rot in hell!

Here in the Boston area wher ethe scandle 1st hit & was hit hardest the chruches closed & were/are sold off like a rummage sell. It was always a matter of what's best for the church, even the sale of the churches, never for the parishes that they let down or those that they betrayed. The donations dried up, they were/are faced with their own demons & they are not doing a good job at finding a way out. Partly IMHO because they keep looking to save themselves, they care more for their own future than those that followed them into the messs they're in.

Self-rightious & sanctimonious, they are still seeking to guide their flock with wolves in shepard's clothing. The old ways are gone the church has to find a new way in this new world.
I just yesterday came from my daughter's confirmation, presided by non other than Cardnial O'Mally. He's still talking about yesteryear when their were no divorces, no single parent households, no child victims & how folks had faith, how a woman's job was to marry & raise kids, how it's everyone job to follow the faith! EXCUSE ME!!!!!
What rubbish in todays world.

It's no wonder the chruch is in such dire straits with leaders that can't get out of their own way. Sure they do a buch of good but so do corporations like Wal-Mart & Exron when called to task. Doesn't give them the holy right to exist unchallenged. They need to test themselves, take chances, they need to listen to their flock & not the baying of old men that long for the good old days when they could run their sheep over hill & dale, fatten them, fleece them, spin their wool & eat them. They need to meet the expections of their followers, it's them that are important. THE CHURCH IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PEOPLE THEY SERVE. All you folkies should know that, "it's the song not the singer".

I don't care one way or the other if the catholic church, or any church for that matter survives. I can go on living as I see fit. I don't do harm to any, I help when I'm able & I follow my heart when my heart tells me ntoo. I'm not confused by a good deed & a wrong. I don't need a religon to do that & I don't need a church to guide me. I know what's right & what's wrong. I do question the church in that matter though. Hopefully they will resolve their many issues to the satisfaction of all, if not then their are always other s ready, willing & able to guide the faithfull.

They ought to show the faithfull how they can find faith within themselves without the need for an external source for standing on their own 2 feet.
I guess that's a bit counter productive though, isn't it. Wouldn't really pay off in the long run.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 01:37 PM

Barry's good assessment reminds me of a Bob Dylan Song that I always found inspirational, Trust Yourself.


Trust yourself,
Trust yourself to do the things that only you know best
Trust yourself
Trust yourself to do what's right
and not be second-guessed
Don't trust me to show you beauty
When beauty may only turn to rust
If you need somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

Trust yourself
Trust yourself to know the way that
will prove true in the end
Trust yourself
Trust yourself to find the path
where there is no if and when


Don't trust me to show you the truth
When the truth may only be ashes and dust
If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

Well, you're on your own, you always were
In a land of wolves and thieves
Don't put your hope in ungodly man
Or be a slave to what somebody else believes.

Trust yourself
And you won't be disappointed when
vain people let you down
Trust yourself
And look not for answers where no answers can be found
Don't trust me to show you love
When my love may be only lust
If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

You, you got to trust yourself ..

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 04:52 PM

Some thoughts on religion, not all strictly relevant, but food for thought nonetheless:

Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues. --Edward Abbey

All thinking men are atheists. --Ernest Hemingway

When I think of all the harm [the bible] has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it. --Oscar Wilde

Must then a Christ perish in torment in every age to save those that have no imagination? --George Bernard Shaw

Faith is when you believe in something that no one in their right mind would believe. --Archie Bunker

She was a good Christian woman with a large respect for religion, though she did not, of course, believe any of it was true. --Flannery O'Connor

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. --Voltaire

It is a curious thing...that every creed promises a paradise which will be absolutely uninhabitable for anyone of civilized taste. -- Evelyn Waugh

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. --Napoleon Bonaparte

In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathan Miller

The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such. --Sigmund Freud

I prayed for freedom twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. --Frederick Douglass

I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C," and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of ever religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism." --Barry Goldwater

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. --George Bernard Shaw

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. --Carl Sagan

When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday--cash me out. --Frank Sinatra

The churches have no confidence in each other. Why? Because they are acquainted with each other. --Robert Green Ingersoll

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. --Richard Francis Burton

If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction. --Percy Bysshe Shelley

Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow

But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? --Mark Twain

Accustom a people to believe that priests, or any other class of men, can forgive sins, and you will have sins in abundance. --Thomas Paine

With soap, baptism is a good thing. --Robert Green Ingersoll

In order to exist just once in the world, it is necessary never again to exist. --Albert Camus

Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. --Sam Harris

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. --Isaac Asimov

All gods are dead except the god of war. --Eldredge Cleaver

Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question. --Johannes Kepler

Religion provides the solace for the turmoil it creates. --Byron Danelius

Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. --George Santayana

Its hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. --Bill Watterson

If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides. --Montesquieu

We are punished by our sins, not for them. --Elbert Hubbard

Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have. --James Baldwin

One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it. --Bertrand Russell

Let me alone. Good day. --Thomas Paine on his deathbed when asked by a clergyman if he would like to confess before Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM

As I think I said a couple of hundred posts ago, here we have just-another-religion-bashing thread.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

I subscribe to two Catholic publications, The National Catholic Reporter (NCR), which is very left-of-center; and America, a Jesuit publication which I consider moderate but very honest. NCR has been very critical of the actions of the bishops, almost to the point of muckraking - but it hasn't come up with any real answer about the reason for the problem. America has had more balanced coverage and did devote an entire issue to the problem - but again, no answers. I can accept that child molestation is a problem that we don't understand and don't exactly know how to treat or respond to; but what about the apparent coverups and moving sex offender priests to new parishes instead of firing and prosecuting them?
I suspect a few bishops of malfeasance, but I think most of them are basically pretty decent people even if they are conservative. So, why did all this happen? I'm surprised that these two publications haven't come up with an answer - or at least an attempt at an answer. I really don't suspect either of these publications or any collusion with a coverup - after all, both of them have had their troubles with Rome and the bishops.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 06:46 PM

I have heard a few theories. So with a fear of being accused of being anti RC, anti priest, anti vatican or anti religeous (by the RC faithful) for even discussing the issues, here they are...for discussion purposes only:

The church:
1)Some of the senor staff, right up to the Vatican, in the church were involved in similar actions, and were fearful of losing their positions within the church.

2)Homosexual activity among priests was once internally rampant (and informally accepted) within the church. This led to a tolerant view towards these activities, even involving alter boys.

3)Having sex with a woman was considered a grave sin for a priest. Sex with the same sex was viewed less so, and tolerated as a release to avoid herterosexual frolics with parishiners.

4)Having sex with an alter boy is a throwback to years gone by, when it was accepted. Much like the Royal families and and their unicks, or suiters.

5)Once ordained, a priest was once believed to answer only to God. Thus, few within the church felt empowered to take agressive action.

6)A belief that priests were being agressively lured into these acts by permissive young homosexual boys.

7)Concern with a decline in the number of priests entering the cloth, and the impact of losing any.

8)And of course, fear of the impact of huge financial settlements.

9)An incorrect internal belief that pedophile priests could be rehibilitated through internal religeous practices. Which led to a failure to get professional outside physological advice on pedophilia and rehabilitation.

Parishiners:
1)Fear of challenging the power of the church.

2)Disblief that priests could do any wrong.

3)An incorrect belief that the Vatican and powers in the church were strategically dealing with the issues/situation.

4)Fear that the church would be embarassed by bad publicity for the RC church.

5)A focus on the faith, lives outside the church, and nothing else.

6)Disblief that children were being abused by such good people.

I suspect that, given the sensitivity of the issue, the Vatican is sharing very little information with anyone who is not on the tight inside, including the National Catholic Reporter or the America. After all, while church orienated, are still are media and in the public domain.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 07:08 PM

Joe - I'd guess that child abuse occurs to a similar degree wherever it can, and with varying levels of discoverability. It's all a matter of opportunity, surely?

Susan - With the greatest respect, the subject/title of this thread kind of indicates its nature, and it's not uncommon for non-believers to have negative views on religion. That shouldn't encumber intelligent discussion between reasonable people though.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 08:48 PM

Susan - With the greatest respect, the subject/title of this thread kind of indicates its nature, and it's not uncommon for non-believers to have negative views on religion. That shouldn't encumber intelligent discussion between reasonable people though.

When people respond to a post of mine as if I am a RC and as if I am defending the RC Church, that doesn't indicate an effort at intelligient and reasonable discussion. It indicates people so mad that they post without reading posts.

The discussion has moved from the thread title to a serial attack on all things religious. That also indicates not an effort at reasonable and intelligent discussion, but an effort to persuade people to a negative viewpoint and/or vent old resentments.

In that type of atmosphere, an effort at reasonable discussion is inevitably met with continued negativity, because the goal of so many here is not discussion, but venting and persuasion. One has only to read this thread to see it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:04 PM

Fair comment - I think I perhaps mistakenly took your post more personally than it was intended, as I haven't knowingly responded to a post of your's. Please accept my apologies if I've caused you any offence.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:17 PM

Thought this was interesting.

As to the current state of some RC churches, it seems that the current Pope predicted it many years ago:

English translation of an excerpt from Glaube und Zukunft (1970) in its 1971 Portuguese edition, titled Fe e Futuro (1971, pp. 76-78.

The book reproduces five lectures by Fr. Joseph Ratzinger given in 1969 at radios stations in Baviera and Hessen.


From today's crisis, a Church will emerge tomorrow that will have lost a great deal. She will be small and, to a large extent, will have to start from the beginning. She will no longer be able to fill many of the buildings created in her period of great splendor. Because of the smaller number of her followers, she will lose many of her privileges in society. Contrary to what has happened until now, she will present herself much more as a community of volunteers ....

"As a small community, she will demand much more from the initiative of each of her members and she will certainly also acknowledge new forms of ministry and will raise up to the priesthood proven Christians who have other jobs. In many smaller communities, respectively in social groups with some affinity, the normal care of souls will take place in this way ....

"There will be an interiorized Church, which neither takes advantage of its political mandate nor flirts with the left or the right. This will be achieved with effort because the process of crystallization and clarification will demand great exertion. It will make her poor and a Church of the little people .... All this will require time. The process will be slow and painful ....

"From this interiorized and simplified Church, a great force will pour out. The men of an [artificially] planned world will feel unspeakably isolated. When God will seem to have totally disappeared for them, they will experience a complete and horrible poverty. And then they will discover the small community of those who believe as something entirely new ....

"Her [the Church's] real crisis has hardly started. We still have to go through some great storms .... Certainly she will never again be the dominant force in society to the degree that she was until recently."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 09:39 PM

That seems a strange thing to say - any idea what the "today's crisis" to which he refers was?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:16 PM

Maybe if the bishops would cut back on all the pomp, they wouldn't have to bleed the parishoners for compensation to the victims. They could also sell some of their property and cash in some of their other investments. They always seem to have money to stage huge ceremonies for the consumption of the masses.

I'm probably one of those Susan accuses of bashing religion (perhaps she's right) but I do not bash hope and faith. Its organized religion that invests in oil, the armament industry and corrupt pooliticians that worry me. As far as I'm concerned, the Roman Catholic church is a perversion of the original Catholic church. As soon as the decision to centralize the religion was made, the trouble began. Ask the Cathars.

If the foundation is weak, the structure will eventually crumble. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner, the better. Nothing good will arise until the Vatican is in ashes and the girly boys in fancy clothes are dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 27 Apr 08 - 11:34 PM

Have you ever been to the Vatican? The wealth is obscene, particulary when you consider the living standards in some of the poorer Catholic countries - where of course people are encouraged to breed as fast as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:51 AM

The "crisis" may be this:

In the 1970's, many people left the Catholic church because of the restrictions on birth control, and many priests left because of celibacy issues. Liberals were disillusioned that canges were not taking place fast enough, and conservative thought changes were happening too fast.

A lot of the child molesting that has surfaced recently, took place in the 1970's. Partial causes could be that many sexual taboos were being questioned, and that many priests were living alone instead of in rectories with three priests.

Interestingly, Ratzinger/Benedict's 1970 piece echoed what a number of liberals were saying at the time. I understand he took a turn to the right when his classroom at Tübingen was invaded by the Red Army Faction, and he was rightly terrified.

Somebody wondered why Rome hasn't paid part of the cost of the child molestation settlements. In general, functions of the Catholic Church are self-supporting, and each diocese is a separate corporation. The "local ordinary" (bishop of the diocese) is more-or-less independent - although he is sometimes overruled by Rome. Rome takes care of its own financial affairs, but it dependent on the dioceses for some support.

And, to a great extent, Rome considered this to be "an American problem," and church officials in Rome had no understanding of the problem whatsoever (and very little involvement).

Ed T, I think most of your conjectures about the attitude of parishioners are correct. For the most part, Catholic lay people have a very unrealistic view of the lives of priests. I can't agree with much of what you say about the thinking of "the church" on the matter of sexuality. Homosexual sex and sex with children is certainly not considered "less sinful" than sex with a woman. However, in many dioceses there is a strong homosexual culture among a certain small (but significant) faction of priests - in certain circles of priests, you'd think you were in the Castro District of San Francisco. Conduct is overtly sexual and flirtatious. "Straight" priests feel very uncomfortable in such circles, and can often seek friendship with parishioners instead of with classmates if this sexual culture is too strong. I would guess from the overtly sexual attitude of priests in these factions, that celibacy is not important to them. As I said above, there was a time in my sophomore year of college when this sexual atmosphere was very strong, and it felt unhealthy to me until a number of people were removed by psychological screening. While I was in the seminary, I did not know of any students being sexually active. Some did go on dates with women, but I never heard of male-male dating. I never, ever heard talk of anybody even thinking about having sex with children, or professors having sex with high school or college seminary students.

I checked the list of Wisconsin priests who had been removed for child molestation, and I think I knew five or six of them. None of them was deeply in the "homoerotic faction" I spoke of above. Most were what I could consider to be "pretty normal" when they were in college with me. I knew those five or six guys pretty well, and I cannot imagine any one of them having sex with a child. Of course, I don't know that I can imagine anyone having sex with a child.

We had a few seminary professors who did their best to make sure that we got good, solid sex education - one science professor was particularly good at that, as was my main moral theology professor. Maybe they should have told us about child molestation, but it wasn't an issue in the 1960's.

The Milwaukee Archdiocese, where I grew up, has had a reasonably good record with regards to child molesting priests, as has the Sacramento Diocese where I live now. Some incidents, but almost all were reported to law enforcement authorities and dealt with. This link (click) will lead you ot a lengthy report on the problems of Milwaukee - it isn't a pretty picture, but it does appear that the archdiocese tried to deal with the problem and that there were relatively few offenders among the 600 priests of the archdiocese. Rembert Weakland, who was Archbishop of Milwaukee after I moved away, apparently fell in love with some guy in the 1970's, and then the guy blackmailed him for half a million dollars in the late 1990's - but it doesn't even appear that the archbishop and the man had a sexual relationship. As far as I know, there were no sex problems in the Milwaukee Archdiocesan seminary that I attended. However, I learned recently that a number of high school seminarians in a religious-order seminary outside Milwaukee were molested by professors - several professors were accused (click). I wonder how that sort of thing affected priests who had gone through that seminary at the time.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 12:57 AM

I dunno, Mike, St. Peter's Basilica is a gorgeous building, built over a number of centuries by the best Renaissance artists. The rest of the Vatican looks a bit run-down, and there is very little that one would call "sumptuous." I'm kinda glad they didn't tear down St. Peter's in an austerity move, or paint over the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel. St. Peter's is well-used, by the way.
St. Peter's is the only real church in the Vatican, although there is the Sistine and other chapels. The Sistine has that nice painting on the ceiling, but it's otherwise pretty austere. There are lots of beautiful churches in Rome - in general, they belong to the local parishes. Catholic dioceses do spend a lot of money maintaining museum-piece churches that are no longer needed, but who wants to tear them down or buy them? Most Catholics, even we liberals, are quite fond of those beautiful churches and the stories behind them. Seems like a better use of money than the Cathedrals of Sport that cities build for privately-owned athletic teams in the United States. Our local basketball team wants the city to help them build an arena to replace their 20-year-old building. How often are churches considered obsolete and torn down after 20 years?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 01:22 PM

Joe - I wasn't really advocating the demolition of buildings and destruction of artwork. One doesn't have to be a Catholic to appreciate and respect beauty, believe me. I'd be interested to see the Vatican's accounts though - are they ever made public? Or available to members of the Church?

The idea of responsibility at local level looks very wrong to me, albeit perhaps essential for the size of operation and its survival.

Thanks for taking the time to be so informative Joe, it really is appreciated, and you represent your Faith admirably. I'm just trying to make sense of the world, and human nature - nothing more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM

The buck needs to stop somewhere!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Joe Offer, at the (Catholic) Women's Center
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:37 PM

The idea of reponsibility on the local level looks wrong to you, Mike?

Maybe I misunderstand you, but I have to say I'm very glad that Catholic parishes are as autonomous as they are. I'm a voluntary member of the church, and I can't see myself being dictated to by Rome. I do appreciate the worldwide union the Catholic Church provides, especially the feeling of solidarity with third world countries - but I also treasure my autonomy. In a semi-autonomous parish, I can make a big difference - and I do. In a worldwide monolith, I'd be just another spoke in the wheel. No, thanks. That's not what I signed on for.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:06 AM

You misunderstand me Joe, I meant the responsibility for the financial compensation of sexual abuse victims. I can well see the advantages of the structure as you describe it, but I can equally see how it can be, and probably is, used less honourably. I believe that rank should always be accompanied by responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T (at another computer)
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 12:06 PM

"Through our sunless lanes creeps Poverty with her hungry eyes, and Sin with his sodden face follows close behind her. Misery wakes us in the morning and Shame sits with us at night." - Oscar Wilde

"It is safest to be moderately base -- to be flexible in shame, and to be always ready for what is generous, good and just, when anything is to be gained by virtue." - Sydney Smith

"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong" - Joseph Chilton Pearce

"When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief for to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commision of every other crime." - Thomas Paine

"Religion and art spring from the same root and are close kin. Economics and art are strangers."

"What is the most important for democracy is not that great fortunes should not exist, but that great fortunes should not remain in the same hands." - Alexis de Tocqueville
- Willa Cather

There are two kinds of light--the glow that illuminates, and the glare that obscures."
- James Thurber

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 29 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM

"Fear is the root of all courage"
- Vivian Stanshall

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:25 PM

A lot of this would have worked a lot better if American bishops were pastors, not businessmen. They need to have businessmen working for them as administrators to keep things running and keep the bills paid, but the bishop should be primarily a pastor - serving people on a heart-level.

Trouble is, that's not the tradition in the American Catholic Church, where the best candidates for bishop were the "brick-and-mortar men" who made names for themselves collecting huge donations and erecting impressive buildings. I thought we had moved away from that after Vatican II, but then John Paul II selected a new crop of bureaucrats and businessmen as bishops. We now have a whole generation of yes-men bishops. I hope Benedict XVI will help change that climate a bit. We need more bishops like Oscar Romero of San Salvador and Joseph Cardinal Bernardin of Chicago. We had a good one in Sacramento, Francis Quinn, but he retired 15 years ago and was replaced by a businessman bishop.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 03:56 PM

Makes sense Joe.
The most important part of a church is its foundation, not the steeple at the top.
I trust the Pope reads this thread for direction :)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:51 PM

Could there be a nest of these fellows at higher levels? See today's news article from Canada below:


Ottawa police issue warrant for ex-N.S. bishop Lahey wanted on child pornography charges Wed. Sep 30 - 4:19 PM

An arrest warrant has been issued for a former Roman Catholic bishop from Nova Scotia charged with possession and importation of child pornography.

The Ottawa Police Service Internet child exploitation unit charged Raymond Lahey, 69, on Sept. 25, 10 days after he was pulled over at Macdonald-Cartier International Airport in Ottawa by Canada Border Services Agency officers.

Mr. Lahey, who recently helped broker a landmark $15-million settlement to a class-action sexual abuse lawsuit against the Diocese of Antigonish, was returning from the U.S. on Sept. 15 through the Ottawa airport when border officials pulled him aside for a secondary examination, according to a news release from Ottawa police.

Border services officers found images on his laptop computer "that were of concern", according to the release.

Officials seized his computer and other media devices. Mr. Lahey was released "pending further investigation", the release said.

Now, Ottawa police and border services officials are asking anyone with information about the investigation to call the Ottawa Police Service Internet Child Exploitation Unit at 1-613-236-1222, ext. 5640.

The bishop, named to the position in 2003, is a Newfoundlander who once served as a professor of theology at Memorial University in St. John's.

Mr. Lahey was credited with helping to broker the settlement to a lawsuit brought against the diocese by the brother of a man who had claimed he was sexually abused as a child.

Ronald Martin, whose brother wrote a suicide note in 2002 that led to charges of sex crimes against a priest from the diocese, filed a class-action lawsuit last year against the organization.

The settlement is aimed at compensating anyone who was allegedly and known to have been sexually assaulted by a priest of the Catholic Episcopal Corp. of Antigonish since Jan. 1, 1950. Last month, Mr. Lahey said the agreement was the first step in recognizing the alleged abuse of children as young as eight years old.

"I recognize that my resignation takes place at a time when the diocese is facing a variety of demanding challenges," he wrote in a letter dated Saturday and released on Sunday explaining his resignation.

"While I will no longer be with you on this journey, I am confident that your faith and compassion will continue to sustain you as they have always done . . . I have already left the diocese to take some much-needed time for personal renewal."
([e-mail])

WRITINGS OF FORMER BISHOP RAYMOND LAHEY
Bishop Lahey's resignation letter and biography
A letter to parents from the Roman Catholic bishops of Nova Scotia: Your Child and Sex Education (2004)
Letter to parishioners on same-sex marriage (2006)
Source: www.antigonishdiocese.com

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:06 AM

I haven't read right thru this long thread which has just been refreshed; so if this has been mentioned before, apologies — but I suspect not.

Visiting friends in LA in Oct 2003, my late wife & I {not RC} visited the new Cathedral; where we were interested to find a Chapel dedicated to child victims of clerical sexual abuse. This seemed to us some attempt to make amends. Is anyone else on this thread aware of this Chapel? Has visited it? Entered it for purpose of prayer, perhaps? Nobody I have mentioned it to, in US or here in UK, has known about it. Is it still there?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: bankley
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:47 AM

I have a friend that drove taxi and regularly picked up Joe Ratzinger (before he became Benedict) for trips from Regensburg to Munich.. they used to discuss all kinds of things... on one trip the subject came around to monotheism versus polytheism. My buddy believes in many of the old Germanic dieties, so they didn't see eye to eye on this... The conversation got heated and the Ratz was ordered out of the cab. He was left standing by the side of the road out in the country. So I guess I can say I know someone that threw the Pope out of a taxi..
Joe made out okay, and has some fancy digs in Italy now....and probably will never have to hitchhike again...

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Lox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

"I understand that the celibacy rule has been attracting a very high persentage of homosexuals to the priesthood and that assaults on young boys are most common."

Ah yes I see ...

Homosexuals would of course seek out a life of celibacy ... that makes sense ...

... and then, being homosexuals they would therefore need to find release by preying on small children ...

... because homosexuals are perverts and paedophiles are perverts therefore homosexuals are paedophiles ...

Thanks Ake for clarifying that.


(oops - sorry if you feel victimized by my "fascist liberalism" ... grmmph ...)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:58 PM

Authoritarianism and enabling of bad behavior produces child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: billhudson
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:25 PM

Speaking as a x seminarian (5 years,OFM Caps) I would have to agree with some that it starts at the top. I think the bishops and their lawyers have known about all this for years and they have been moving these people around.
That being said there were many priest and brothers who were a great influence on me and were good men. At the time some were WW2 vets who saw a lot of combat and had been through hell. So you could not throw the bull around (we did try).
It as also where I started to play guitar. Many at that time did and it was fun jamming with other guys singing tunes. It was not what people would think.
But getting back to the subject I think it is way too late for the pope saying he is sorry. Those pedophile priests (if in fact they are) have destroyed lives of many people for years to come and they should be held responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM

A life of celibacy makes no sense since it runs counter to human needs. Those who practice this doctrine are not living healthy lives. The priesthood is sometimes prescribed for those in a family that are homosexual. Their needs are thwarted institutionally and as a result, this could become behavior of abberation. The answer is simple. Allow heterosexual and homosexual priests to marry and have their sexual needs met.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 02:28 PM

Nobody has responded to the question I asked a couple of days ago which seems very germane to all this — (01 0ct 0206). Does anyone else know the Chapel in LA Cathedral [some Angelinos must read this site, surely?]. Is that Chapel still there? Well-known? Much visited? Was there any response from the community when it opened?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:31 PM

As the plot thickens:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/News

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Lox
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:34 PM

MtheGM,

I suspect that as with most of the good work doen by the church and in the churches name, your observation will go overlooked.

For every crime committed by a church representative, there are a thousand selfless acts.

They don't sell papers though.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:54 AM

"Copping out" again Lox?

PERCENTAGES.....PERCENTAGES!

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:18 AM

I suspect there is the church, the organization, and the church the faithful. There is a difference. One does and exist without the other, in more than financial ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Alice
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:41 AM

MtheGM, I did a bing.com search on "chapel for abused in Los Angeles Catholic" and the first that came up is this article in the Los Angeles Times.

Chapel Dedicated for Victims of Sex Abuse
click here May 26, 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Alice
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:48 AM

Another article ads more info than the previous link:

"...But Grant told the Times that 'clearly this continues to be about the cardinal and not the victims. I think Cardinal Mahony knew that if victims were aware of this ahead of time, they'd be here telling parishioners that real change needs to happen -- and that the priests who abused them are not yet behind bars.'

THE SUNDAY AFTER THE DEDICATION of the chapel, protestors entered the cathedral with a large wooden cross, covered with pictures of clergy abuse victims, said the June 2 Los Angeles Times. With news cameras in train, the protestors placed the cross in the chapel dedicated to victims of sexual abuse and began fixing pictures of abuse victims to the bulletin boards provided by the archdiocese for that purpose. When these were filled, protestors began taping photographs to the chapel walls. Some of the photographs showed the priests who protestors said had abused them...."

scroll down this page to read the full article http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/news/0703news.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Alice
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:51 AM

That news is from 2003, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:54 PM

More on RC Bishop Raymond Lahey and his travel extensively to source countries for child pornography.


http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=22151704

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:33 AM

Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles gets a lot of flak from both sides. The extreme liberals accuse him of covering up sexual abuse by refusing to permit prosecutors to have full access to priest personnel records. The extreme conservatives accuse him of having a "homosexual agenda" (a codeword for anything that is not extremely conservative). They also complain that he does not speak loudly enough against abortion - which, in their minds, makes him pro-abortion.

The fact of the matter is that Mahony is a moderate, trying to serve everyone he's supposed to be serving. He's not really a dynamic personality, but he's a good man who tries to deal with things rationally. There's no way he can satisfy the people at the extremes. Instead of bowing to the angry extremists like many bishops do, Mahony largely ignores them.

I go to the annual Los Angeles Religious Education Congress that Mahony sponsors, and it's a wonderful event - the largest annual gathering of Catholics in the US, with 40,000 people attending. The Congress draws the best Catholic speakers in the country, and the liturgical celebrations are festivals of song and dance (even though Rome thinks dance is not part of US culture and shouldn't be part of liturgy).

I knew Mahony had dedicated a chapel to the victims of abuse, but I haven't heard any comments reacting to the gesture. It's true that no apology or financial settlement or legal action can make up for the terrible wrong that has been done, but I think that Mahony and many other bishops have done what they can. Others act like callous business executives and listen to their lawyers more than to the tenets of their faith.

Benedict has frequently spoken out against priest sexual abuse since shortly after he was elected Pope. John Paul II didn't. I don't think he was callous - he was simply blind. Having been brought up to believe the Church was the infallible opponent to fascism and communism, he just didn't seem to be able to accept the fact that some aspects of his Church are deeply flawed. Benedict seems to have a far more realistic view.

-Joe-

Subject: BS: Pope on pedophile priests and pumping hard
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 06:00 PM

eww

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
George Bush

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 12:55 PM

The Pope has outlived any usefulness he may have had. He is the supreme authoritarian in a world which requires compassion, not bullying. He reserves to himself the right of King to determine the fate of the world.

Pedophilia is an outgrowth of blind obedience to authority.

We see this on C Street with the rise of the Family Christian Mafia.

Fortunately, there are Catholics who question their religion's right to destructive edicts.
Not all Catholics apparently think the Pope is right.