BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....

Subject: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:45 PM

Yeah, now it's the Big Three... Next thing it will be Walmart with it's hat in hand... Heck, Wall Street has allready riped US off for $250B... $250B, BTW, ain't chump change...

But what makes this ol' hillbilly mad as mad can be is that what this seems to be is the corportists last money grab before the Dems take over and figure this thing out... Which they will do... Hopefully, we can stop the bleeding right now... No more!!! No mas!!!

This ain't nothin' but more "trickle down" economics... This is the last hooray for the Reaganists...

If the US wants to help Wall Street or Main Street it needs to use whatever money they have to create help to the working class... Rateher than give GM or Ford the dough, why not assit the working class in being able to purchase new cars???

(But that is socialism, Bobertdz...)

Well, given it away to the rich ain't???

No matter which corporation comes beggin', which BTW will be every one of them until we say "no", if we subsidize the working class which has been losing its ability to keep up for the last 3 decades, we will not only be helping the corportaions indirectly but we will also be helping Joe Sixpack who needs the help alot more...

Convince me I am wrong...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Skivee
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:19 PM

"I'm Changin' My Name To Chrysler" ...Tom Paxton, I thunk

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:54 PM

Well, at least Lee Irrokaka paid the loans back... I don't belive that any of these current crybaby corportists have any thoughts beyond just grabbin' as much as they can while they can... I mean, let's get real... The Big Three didn't act responsibly during the Toyota/Honda assualt... They just said, "WTF, we'll just nmake bigass muscle cars and trucks and make Redneck America happy... Problem is that Redneck American can't afford Campbell's Pork 'n Beans these days because Redneck America ain't had a raise in 30 years and is now gettin' laid off???

WTF???

So giving more money to corporations to build stuff that no one can afford is stupid... Give the money to the folks who can't afford to buy nuthin' and let it trickle up...

Or don't give no money at all...

But I'd rather see the rich taxed and those bucks go to the working class... This would be kinda like justice for 30 years of the rich having everything their way...

Socialism???

I don't care what you call it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:53 PM

You are so right Bobert, they privatize the profits and socialize the losses. Drives me insane, and they get their millions of dollars in bonuses for doing such a stellar job. Cannot believe this stuff insanity

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:04 PM

Bobert, you are a low-down no-good socialist commie left-wing Wobbly meathead, and a radical anarchist, too.

I agree with everything you said.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:16 PM

You're preachin' to the choir here Bobertz..........Let the oil companies bail out the Big 3.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:29 PM

Pinkos, the lot of ya. New Dealer commie hippie pinko free-love bohemian Marxist beatnik socialist Trotskyites! Next thing you'll want to regulate the banks and airlines and put air quality regulations into effect and ban the use of machine guns in rabbit hunting! And you know what that leads to: promoting the general welfare, which means turning the US of A into a WELFARE STATE!! Remember, you can't spell Communism without UN, because then it would be Commism, so let's get the US out of NATO and NASA and Texas NOW!!! Because you can't spell Texas without an X, and we dumped the Teas into Boston Harbor back in 1918 or sometime around there! So wrap your puttees and grab your Krags and lets teach them UnAmerican pinko Tongans a lesson or three!

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:10 PM

Well, gasoline is below $2/gallon here again...but I'm with you on this one Bobert...just send ME the damn billions. I don't need a new car, just $500 worth of tires for the one I have!

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:11 PM

The Bush administration decided that the country needed "more venture capital" to stimulate economic growth.

1. They deleted the top step of the graduated income tax, so that RBs could accumulate more money, which they could loan to credit consumers.

2. They lowered the capital gains tax - already below what poor working stiffs pay on regular earned income - and made it apply to more kinds of "investment gains" under more liberal rules.

3. By thus transferring all of the money to the RBs, they reduced the amount of money that credit consumers could use to service loans that might be needed, even while they were encouraged to borrow, under predatory terms, from the RBs.

4. By putting an excess of money at the disposal of lenders, they created predatory lending practices.

5. By deregulating "investments" and consumer credit lenders, they permitted (and encouraged) multiple layers of fines, fees, and unlimited "adjustments" in interest rates.

They effectively eliminated the credit consumer as a part of the economy.

When the consumers were "tapped out," the money given to the RBs became pretty much worthless, since there was nobody left to borrow and use it. (It's all tied up in worthless mortgages that can't be paid off since the "adjustable rates" and "penalties" all ballooned out of sight.

The administration's answer: "we gotta bail out the RBs" so they're in the process of handing the "investment community" massive amounts of money. They are "socialising" banking, by taking government owned stock in the banks (while accusing the "opposition" of being communists) but continue to tell the credit consumers "F**k You."

The automakers, and particularly Generous Mother, have requested LOANS, with reasonable guarantees to repay.

The element missing from the great economic plan is that there must be borrowers in order for the lenders to profit. By shifting all of the risk to borrowers, largely via the ARM - adjustable rate mortgages - and then pumping the interest rates (along with arbitraty penalties, unregulated fees, etc.) beyond the ability of (credit) consumers to repay, the RBs have destroyed the entire class of "borrowers." The borrowers are the ones who NEED HELP, and only re-creating the whole class of "credit users/consumers" will help the present situation.

GM is a "borrower," with lots of capital for security and credible plans to repay any LOAN from the Fed; and qualified borrowers are exactly what is needed to help with any kind of recovery.

The RBs who are already getting the bailouts are just leeches, bred by "deregulation" and distorted tax policy to feed on everyone else until the whole cesspool of our economic system is polluted and destroyed. In the analogy of my farm region, "they alread ate the seed grain."

It's the effective destruction of worthwhile credit consumers (i.e. credit-worthy borrowers) that's the real root of the current crisis. GM is a credit-worthy (by most rational analyses) credit consumer, but in the present situation only the Fed has enough money to service the loan that they now need.

Unfortunately, most people also stop making the car payment when they lose their home, even though I've never heard of an "adjustable rate auto loan" or even one with "penalty rate adjustments" after the contract is signed.

Of course that's just the quickie opinion. for now.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:14 AM

I would think that the Dept. of Defense would have an interest in seeing the Big Three survive....

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:17 AM

Rap -

Are we talking about the same DoD that changed the rules after the bids were in, in order to buy a FRENCH^* air tanker?

(Just to make sure which one we're talking about.)

^* French - instead of the US tanker (converted from a commercial airplane with 80% of its parts made in Japan, Canada, UK, Italy, etc as conditions for sales in those countries - which of course have no "protective tariffs").

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:12 PM

Nice analysis, JiK.

I had been thinking that the Dems were supporting the auto-industry bailout only on behalf of the huge and still-kinda-powerful UAW (and. by extension, on behalf of the huge numbers of workers employed by the Big Three and their suppliers and the many small businesspersons and their uion and non-untion employees who are dependent upon auto-company employees as their customers). In other words, viewing the companies primarily as employers.

Characterizing the car companies as worthwhile credit customers (not unlike individual human-being citizens) makes them a lot more sympathetic in my eyes, and should have the same effect on lots of other people, including Senators and Congressmen and their constituents. It ceratinly differentiates the automakers from the finance-industry creeps who don't make, and never had made, anything except deals.

I've been telling everyone my opinion that things are f**ed because most people can't buy stuff. I still think that my theory is basically true, albeit simplified to the point of abstraction. I like your formulation better, since it serves to better distinguish the current mess from the depression of the 1930s: the big problem that has developed nowadays is that most people can't borrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:23 PM

"Let the oil companies bail out the Big 3.


I kinda like that! Maybe the oil companies could keep the price of gas down in relation to how well the Big 3 raise the average MPG.

But even a one time movement of cash from oil companies TO car makers, since the oil companies have made record profits the last 2 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:50 PM

David Lewis, who led the New Democratic Party back in the 1970s, had it in one: corporate welfare bums.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:58 PM

Those oil companies have been making their record profits, in part, thanks to the automakers production of gas guzzlers, and perhaps even more importantly, thanks to he automakers' huge investment in advertising designed to convince the public to want the vehicles with the largest profit margins ~ that is, coincidentally or not, those that burn fuel at the highest rate.

So, yeah, let those overpaid RBs foot the bill for keeping the auto industry afloat.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:54 PM

It's not entirely the automakers' "advertising to convince the public to want big vehicles." A part of the US population has had a preference for larger vehicles that is based on logical(?) assessments of their different needs - which are different than in other places.

If it's 70 miles (or more) to the nearest grocery store, you want to pick up a couple of weeks worth of groceries, perhaps some new hardware, a little food for the pets/livestock, and have room in the back for the several kids to amuse themselves during the trip. Daily, or even weekly, shopping is not an option for many of us here.

Even in "suburbia" where the distance may be less, many people have the occasional "need" for fertilizer and other "necessities" that may mean quarter-ton loads (or more) at least occasionally.

It's not necessary to have many kids of your own. If you have one or two you may be urged to provide transportation for "field trips" and/or "sports practice" that may mean a need for space for a half-dozen kids, if you can manage it.

There is no useful public transportation in most parts of the US. In my community, buses are provided generally for kids who live more than a mile from school, and several thousand kids ride them daily; but any activities outside scheduled school hours mean the parents provide transportation, frequently for whole teams, and mostly to places remote from the schools and from homes.

After WWII, Japanese and European industry had the "opportunity" to rebuild their industries. Especially for the Japanese, the high population densities and cramped roads made it natural for them to build small cars. They thus had them at hand when it became feasible to export them to the US. (In Tokyo, a few years ago, you had to own or lease a parking place before you could order a car for delivery "in a couple of years.") Their offerings were good enough, that a large segment of the population perceived (and continues to) that small riceburners were "better" than small cars that US makers attempted to introduce, and the US builders found no significant US market for their offerings (until recently).

The US makers thus concentrated at least to some extent on building the kinds of cars that didn't directly compete with the smallest imports.

Recent comments by one Senator claims the US makers have ignored safety, but he forgets that in 1950 when Chevrolet made simple seat belts "standard equipment" they lost about 8% in "market share" compared to the prior year because people refused to buy them. Less obvious examples, but just as crippling to industry attempts to "improve" their products, have continued to appear since then, because US buyers in the market segment left to the US makers are "mostly assholes" in the perspective of those who are looking for something to criticize.

Complaints about fuel economy often fail to recognize the differences in use here; and it must be admitted that lots of people do drive vehicles that are "too big" for their needs; but it may be noted that GM has 16 or 18 current models rated at 30 mpg or better, at least a couple of hybrids for sale now (with a dozen planned) and expects an all-electric in the immediate future. Unfortunately many buyers of that kind of vehicle are still stuck on the "imports are better" thing, although sales have been decent for the ones currently out.

While even better "miles per gallon" vehicles are common in Europe, most of them are diesels which do not meet (esp. particulate) emissions regulations and cannot be imported here (except, sometimes, as one-at-a-time "personal imports"). If "super mileage" vehicles in use elsewhere could be built to meet our environmental restrictions, I'd guess that we'd be importing them - or building them here.

The Dem resistance to using the $25 billion loan approved for "fuel economy improvements" ignores that without the $25 billion loan requested to get through the collapse of credit there won't be anyone to take the other loan. (The auto industry is so interrelated that collapse of one maker will bankrupt many of the suppliers all the others rely on to continue in business. NOBODY will build or assemble cars in the US.) A valid problem with diverting those funds (and possibly replacing them for the original purpose later) is that as written the law requires "regulators" to write the rules for disbursement, and that will take longer than passing a new bill.

Republican (esp Senate) intransigence appears(?) to be based on the hope that an economic disaster will let them bring their Gestapo back in the next election.

Ain't nobody (in Congress on either side of the aisle, or in the current Administration) thinking about the best interests of the people in the US.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

Hell, JiK, they haven't been thinking about the people of the US for good long time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

Well, I been out playing "Joe ther Plumber" all day workin' in a crawl space of a 200 year old building in filth and dust and dead stuff and I ain't no spring chicken and so I doubly pissed off tonight at the thought of my taxes going, yet agian, to the corporatists... I hate them... They are the enemy... They make me rething my position on capiatl punishment...

But forget them fir a minute...

We ain't got a credit crisis... We have a *****wage crisis****!!!

Why prop up any industry when the American worker is slammed tapped out and can't buy squat??? This is the problem... Unless we figure a way to get some of the bucks back in the poskets of the working man who has undergone a 30 year fleecing, then we ain't gonna fix jack!!!

Grrrrrrr!!!

No more bailouts!!! We've allready run $300B thru the shreader...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 11:11 PM

So you didn't take my advice and hire a dachshund to do the job, eh, Bobert? Hell, all it would have cost you was a bucket of fried chicken or a string of sausages.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:39 AM

Either pay the other "Joe the Plumber" and have to go back and do the job right after he messes it up or just save the money and do it right the first time... But...

...if I thought that yer dog could do the job I'd gladly turn it over to him/her...

Forget it... I'm on the upper side of the floor today...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:14 AM

Hey, Bobert. Ya wanna come out here, make some bread playin' blues, and fix my doors? I'll put ya up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM

Depends, Rap... Ya' offerin' to pay me to play blues 'er do carpentry work??? Might consider doin' it to play blues but not to fix no danged doors...

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 05:16 PM

Well, you can play blues all night. We got several blues juke joints around here and folks even APPRECIATE good blues. You'd fix the doors just cuz yer such a great wonderful guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:21 AM

GMAC has submitted thier paper work to become a holding bank...
which will entitle them to bail out funds that other banks are now enjoying. Master Card is in line to become bail out worthy as a new holding bank.

They are not alone. Many business' are becoming banks as fast as they can with 60 days to go.

Mudcat should become a holding bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:59 PM

I hadn't realized that you had such a talent, aptitude, and genuine love of really tedious and uncomfortable handyman type jobs, Bobert, but now that I do....

I need some roof venting put in.

And some cedars cut down.

And some repairs to the soffets and gutters.

And a lantern installed by the back entrance.

And a dog ramp put in for the dachshunds (similar to a wheelchair ramp).

It's cold enough out there right now to freeze the balls off a Sicilian Mafioso, so I figger you are the man to take on these jobs.

When can I expect your arrival?

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:43 PM

Bobert, it's really quite nice out here right now (check the weather websites if you don't believe me). You could get the stuff done at my place and then, after some skiing up around Sun Valley and some jammin' with Carole King, pop over to Orally or where it is that LH lives and cut him a vent hole in his roof.

Oh, heck, if he pays for the transportation and my salary I'll fly there and cut a hole in his roof for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:40 PM

You're a real "brick", Rapaire. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:23 PM

Listen, guys... Ol' Bobert ain't got time to cuss a cat these days... I done hired superman a few months back and I'm having to go balls to the wall to stay half a step in front of him... Maybe when I finish the hotel some day and have had a substantial rest afterwards I'll pack up the tools and come vuisitin'... But until then, sorry... Call Joe the Plumber... I heard he's outta work...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

Bobert: As usual you and your cronies are pointing fingers at the wrong party to blame for the "bail-out." It is the Democrats, my friend, who are pushing for a bail-out for the big 3, not the Republicans. The Democrats MUST protect their Union base. If you don't believe me, wait until there is a majority of Democrats in the House and Senate and Barry in the White House. They will pass a bail-out bill before the last truck has unloaded the Obama's belongings.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:22 PM

I think it would be wise to assist your national auto industry in such a way as to prevent its collapse, Doug. What do you think?

On the other hand, I don't think it would be wise to hand them a ton of money without attaching some pretty stringent conditions as to just how it is to be spent.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:57 PM

Big Three, my butt, Dougie!!!

I mean, let's get real here... The $700B bailout package came right outta the Bush administration... They used the same fear tactics as they used to sell the Iraq War...

So the Dems buckled under for the PR onslaught...

Now that half the $700B is gone with nothin' to show for it the Dems are going, "Hey, wait a minute... Do we have any say in this???"...

Yeah, I don't much blame them as much as I blame Bush and his folks for perpertrating this kinda "trickle down" bailout on the country... It's like the Repubs last money grab on their way out and they are grabbin' it if fist-fulls...

You have this one wrong, Dougie...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:38 PM

Looks a lot to me like partial nationalism of various corporations -- and that, by any definition, is S-O-C-I-A-L-I-S-M.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:05 PM

Yeah, Rap... The only problem is that we have become owners of Edsal and American Motors???

Well Street is dumpiong all it's clunkers on US... I mean, let's get real... We've blown well Over $300B and no one in the Bush administration has a clue where it went???

I think we oughtta combine this thread with the pirate thread...

Seriously...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:20 PM

L.H.: If the Big 3 are in as dire straights as most people agree they are, they should file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and reorganize themselves, including re-negotiation of the bloated union contracts that management accepted many years ago. They have to keep labor costs much closer in line to their competition (Honda, Toyota,etc.)or they can't survive. Our government does a lousy job of managing itself, and it darned sure shouldn't be trying to run the car manufacturers.

Bobert: Sigh.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:15 PM

Doug, I think you're mistaken about the bloated wages being the problem, because I just read an analysis in the Canadian press yesterday and it said that American auto workers are paid comparatively less in real terms than either the Japanese or European auto workers, while the American auto management people are paid a lot more. The reason your auto industry is in bad shape is because it's producing a low quality product that is out of sync with the times, I think.

Your government has to regulate your private industries now, because your private industres have not behaved in a responsible fashion. They have acted so as to enrich only their own management people and a few major shareholders and have done it in such an irresponsible way that they have in effect wrecked your entire economy and put the whole world's economy in peril.

Do you know why you have laws and regulations in a society at all, Doug? Because when you don't, criminals run hogwild and rob society at will. Without a government in place that's what happens. The government is NOT your enemy, Doug, it's the single and only source of every single law and regulations that protect you and your children every day of your lives. It's the source of your Constitution. It's the source of your Bill of Rights.

Without it you simply have moral anarchy...survival of the fittest (meaning: the richest) at the expense of the rest. Rule by business mafias for their own personal gain. That appears to be what the neocon movement wished to create. Well, I wish them no luck in that effort. Their philosophy is totally irresponsible and corrupt. It's the stupidest thing I've seen since Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 02:19 AM

FDIC to guarantee $1.4 trillion in bank debt

The Associated Press
updated 7:03 p.m. CT, Fri., Nov. 21, 2008

WASHINGTON - Federal regulators will guarantee as much as $1.4 trillion in U.S. banks' debt in a bid to get the distressed financial system pumping again. They also took steps Friday to make it easier for private investors to buy banks seized by the government.

[end quote]

So if the banks lose money we (taxpayers) guarantee we'll give it back to them.

(That's 56 times the amount the automakers asked them to guarantee, to temporarily replace existing lines of credit that "evaporated" due to Federal DESTRUCTION of commercial lending sources. The auto makers do have a good record of paying off their loans as they become due. Bankers do not have such a history.)

That's on top of $300 Billion already payed out to banks.

(12 times the loan requested to save a few hundred thousand jobs.)

And the best the Senate (still Republican blocked) can recommend is that the automakers should file bankruptcy, and "just don't pay your debts."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM

The other day on C-Span at the hearing where the Big 3 presented themselves for the bailout, Rep. Sherman mentioned that some insurance companies are buying/have bought some small banks so that they too can line up at the trough.

The profit motive being what it is, deregulation has never made sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM

And now we are all paying for it, Eb... I never want to hear another Reaganite Republican use the term "personal responsibility", or "welfare", or the "problem with government is governemnt"...

These weisels have been bilking the American people for 30 years now and rather than take their lumps, like they say the working class should do, they line up like the crybaby crooks that they are... I have no sympathy... Even with $300B allready in welfare checks they have allready gotten there is not one bit of evidence that they get it yet... None one shread of evidence as they scurry trying to out crook each other to our money...

The only bail out money they should be concerned about involves bail/bondsmen... This is sickening...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

I agree, Bobert. They appear to be overwhelmingly more concerned with preserving their troughs than with the fate of the worker who is making a fraction of what they expect as their share.

Kind of like a stew made of equal parts of horse and rabbit. One horse and one rabbit.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 03:25 PM

One elephant and one rabbit, Ebbie. And only the guy who supplied the salt for the stew gets to eat any.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:57 PM

You have this one wrong, Dougie.,?I>

Hardly only this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 11:06 AM

What I want to know is why the Big Three automakers are being required to bring a plan to Congress when Wall Street wasn't???

This thing is ***so*** out of control...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:28 PM

Here's a very interesting article about the general situation, written by Whitley Strieber. He makes one typo or possibly just a careless error where he mentions the German invasion of France being in 1942 (it was in 1940), and I thought I'd mention that before anyone else jumps on it...but it's completely inconsequential, as it has no bearing on the main theme of the article, which I think is quite apt and well thought out on his part:

Article: The Coming Depression

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 02:43 PM

Obama and Bush are working closely on bail-out plans, a hopeful sign. Democratic leaders are calling for $500 billion more incentives, and hope to have the bill ready for Obama to sign on his first day in office.
Obama is supporting the plan for Citigroup. And another $700 billion seems to have been approved today for the general emergency.

See article in NY Times today, ""Obama and Bush Working to Calm Volatile Market," Jeff Jeleny, Nov. 24.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/us/politics/25obama.html?th&emc=th

Well, it may have the benefit of cutting the operations in the Middle East.
The economic problems are world-wide; U. S. actions must be supplemented by those of other major powers.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM

Darned good article, LH...

I really hadn't thought of this as Bush takin' a parting shot but that's exactly what it is... This is a Hail Mary pass late in the 4th quarter to starve the beast...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 05:25 PM

I'm glad you read it, Bobert. I came across it totally by accident while looking for some other stuff, and I was really impressed with what Strieber had to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: GUEST,avoid major depression
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:10 AM

The auto bail out should come (if at all), with immediate restictions starting with cutting the models per auto catergory. Why should Chevriolet have SO many modesl, the same for Buick, Pontiac, Ford, etc? Stop the production immediately and get this gouing. American have enough to choose, plus look at car dealers lots!
In addition mandate that a car get 30+ miles per hour and take away the need for a speed at 120 mph! Who needs that. That alone will also lower insurance rates and cut down on vehicular deaths.
Make the "CZR" take immediate control. STOP over production!
Come on America either we ALL take control of this crisis or we go into a true depression...in which there are NO winners.
Ron
Florida

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:12 AM

Guest, avoid major depression -

So the car you can live with is good enough for everybody?

I have friends who drive 90 miles (140 km) ONE WAY to get to a grocery store - or a hospital.

While they don't need 120 mph vehicles, they DO NEED adequate acceleration at 50 or 60 mph to get around the hayrack or farm tractor on two lane roads in rolling terrain, and they DO NEED vehicles capable of bringing home a few HUNDRED POUNDS of groceries per trip.

It seems to be a favorite mantra now:

"Anybody who's not like me MUST BE PUNISHED."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Stu
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:07 AM

"I have friends who drive 90 miles (140 km) ONE WAY to get to a grocery store - or a hospital. "

That's simply not going to be a sustainable lifestyle in the future, like it or not.

At some point you've got to pay the reaper. Now's the time, and unfortunately it isn't going to be very fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 10:28 AM

Interesting article, indeed. However, to my mind, there is not only hysteria in it but histrionics.

For instance, he's got this wrong:

"Then the lack of credit and the lack of cash caused business to become unable to pay their employees, and by late 1931, people who had been prosperous, who were not in debt, who had saved and worked hard, were suddenly destitute. Nice, conservative middle-class families ended up living in shanty towns or riding the rails. In vast numbers. These shanty towns became known as 'Hoovervilles' as they were a direct result of President Hoover's failure to effectively deal with the catastrophe." Whitley Strieber, from the link

'Shanty towns', 'Hoovervilles', were not a widespread phenomenon but in Washington DC alone where war veterans had marched upon the government, demanding that they be paid the money now that they had been promised.

And I have NEVER heard of entire families, let alone "nice, conservative, middle-class families" living in the hoovervilles, never mind "riding the rails".

sheesh They would not have survived a week.

Question: What happens, in Strieber's scenario, to the empty houses that have been foreclosed? Does he mean to tell us that people, families, will be cast out upon the streets while these properties are boarded up?

Not likely. Not likely, at all. In today's world I have no doubt at all that these dispossessed folks would grab the first abandoned home they found and move in.

I would be among them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: IvanB
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:28 PM

stigweard, if the lifestyle described by JiK isn't going to be sustainable, what are we to do about it? Tell all those farmers in KS that they've got to quit farming and move closer to the stores where they buy, thus lessening the food supply for those of us who are dependent on them for their production?

Like it or not, some people will always have to depend on vehicles that don't get whatever the majority would consider "acceptable" gas mileage. I'm sure the folks to whom JiK refers make concessions in other areas of their lives to compensate for the cost of running their vehicles. Any of us that lives on a budget does the same. Luckily, there's no law that mandates that each of us must allocate our resources in some preordained "normal" fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bail ***THIS*** Out!!!....
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 03:53 AM

Former Nasdaq chairman arrested for fraud

Madoff reportedly told employees Ponzi scheme lost billions for customers

Reuters
updated 7:38 p.m. CT, Thurs., Dec. 11, 2008

NEW YORK - Bernard Madoff, a longtime fixture on Wall Street, was arrested and charged on Thursday with allegedly running a $50 billion Ponzi scheme, U.S. authorities said.

The former chairman of the Nasdaq Stock Market who remains a member of Nasdaq OMX Group Inc's nominating committee, is best known as the founder of Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, the closely-held market-making firm he founded in 1960.

But the alleged fraud involved a hedge fund he ran from a separate floor of the building where his brokerage is based.

Madoff told senior employees of his firm on Wednesday that "it's all just one big lie" and that it was "basically, a giant Ponzi scheme," with estimated investor losses of about $50 billion, according to a criminal complaint against him.

A Ponzi scheme is a pyramid-type swindle in which very high returns are promised to early investors, who are paid off with money put up by later investors.

Prosecutors charged Madoff, 70, with a single count of securities fraud. They said he faces up to 5 years in prison and a fine of up to $5 million.

"Madoff stated that the business was insolvent, and that it had been for years," Lev Dassin, acting United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, said in a statement.

[end quote]

Is there any part of the US financial system that isn't rotten to the core?

Yet Congress seems willing to bail them out - no questions asked - but demands that the VICTIMS who placed reasonable reliance on the availability of credit that no longer exists due to the CRIMINAL CONDUCT of those in the financial markets must destroy their businesses if they want help.

John