BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 03:36 PM

GfS, It isn't that my posts haven't been highly intelligent and perceptive, it's that you didn't like them. Too painfully true for you to handle. Do try to keep the personal invective down. It really says more about you than it does about me.

I'm curious to read your answers to Amos's questions.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 07:47 AM

Don... Two really good articles and discussions. Both are interesting in the extreme and I like the connection brought in with other animals as well as the twin studies.

The part about female sexuality was interesting in the first article "What Makes People Gay?". the comment "More surprising was just how different the story with women turned out to be. Most women, whether they identified as straight, lesbian, or bisexual, were significantly aroused by straight, gay, and lesbian sex" bujt no conclusion as to bisexuality being the 'norm' for females is made. It does, however, explain why women on average do not tend to stress sexuality as much as males. Women appear to have a far more fluid approach to sexuality and it is not as great a part in their make up as maybe in men. My own ideas on this has to do with women, on an evolutionary scale, having had to be far more social with each other than men have had to be on average. "On average" is a very important statement as there will always be extremes so we have to talk about 'the most in general.

Most of my female friends show a fluidity of thought on sexual matters and, to that extent, it may also be why women happily share their experiences with their partners so freely with other friends. It's merely just another subject to chat about. They really don't stress about it. Men, while they will talk to each other about sex rarely share their own sexual actions with their partners. All this said, I guess this is more to do with gender differences rather than sexuality and people being hanged for their gayness so I will try not to stray so far from the topic. What does stand out is the gender bias in research. Very few studies on female sexuality and whole rafts of them on men. This whole fascination over men and trying to explain their sexuality seems to have gripped science as much as it has other areas of human thinking/activity.

In the end I do believe science will find the whole answer and, as long as that is not used to discriminate then it is all well and good.

Thanks for pointing the articles out!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 09:54 AM

"you have it right.....you're confused."
Not really - it only appears so to those who are incapable of thinking out of their box maybe.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 01:48 PM

I wonder how many homophobes have actually analyzed the word Homophobia?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 02:58 PM

Good point, K. Most definitions begin with "irrational fear".

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 04:11 PM

Analised homophobia......sounds a bit dodgy tae me!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 04:21 PM

ake... odd for you to leave yourself that wide open. But, anything for a joke is okay in my books.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 04:33 PM

Now... is there any chance that this thread can fall off the board?

HINT HINT HINT?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

No homophobe would admit to being anything less then a confident healthy fearless red blooded uber-hetero.

Therefore to admit to having any kind of fear of Gay people would be a sign of weakness and impossible as their impression of gay people is that they are weak, effeminate and puny and certainly nothing to be feared.

"I ain't afraid of gays" etc

so the same fear that makes them homophobic also prevents them from admitting that that is what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 07:12 PM

FYI - Houston Texas has just become one of the largest cities to elect a gay mayor.


MSNBC Story

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 07:24 PM

Grey mare eh?....Oh well it IS cattle country!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 08:30 PM

I'm familiar with the species.

THIS GUY is holed up just a few miles from where I live.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 08:39 PM

Attempt to follow that link, Don, produced a pop-up forbiddingly headed FORBIDDEN! What can be with 'THIS GUY', I ask myself. The imagination boggles...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 08:55 PM

Dunno, MtheGM, other than he doesn't like billy goats clip-clopping over his bridge. The link works fine for me.

Here's another link to the same guy:   CLICKY.   I hope this works for you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 09:37 PM

Yes, thanks Don. Got the troll OK. Can't say I see exactly where u are coming from or what connexion is from Billy-goats Gruff to the thread — but the clicky worked OK...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 10:40 PM

Referring to the trolls that are inhabiting this thead. The Billy-goats Gruff are the multitudes of rational folks who have the temerity to disagree with them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 02:41 AM

Of course - sorry, forgot that connotation of 'troll'. Silly me. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM

Wesley:

I think Harvey Milk still owns the record on this.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 02:25 PM

""Now... is there any chance that this thread can fall off the board?

HINT HINT HINT?""

Careful now Gnu, or you'll find youself accused of attempting to stifle the right of free speech of those who are trying to demote a whole group of human beings to second class citizen status.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 02:37 PM

Fascist!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 04:11 PM

Amos - Harvey Milk wasn't the mayor of San Francisco. He was a city councilman or something similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 04:37 PM

Ah, thanks, I misremembered. He was shot the same day as the Mayor, wasn't he?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 04:42 PM

According to the movie "Milk" - and who could doubt Hollywood for historical accuracy - the mayor was shot first and Harvey was shot soon afterward. If I'm remembering correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 05:30 PM

Don... I take severe umbridge at your post. It's "gnu" with a small "g".

Better than a large mind, tho, eh?

Gosh... it's hard to imagine a mind so large that you can't fit logic, reason, compassion, tolerence... into it. Kinda sad innit?

Of course, I have always said I dislike gay parades and gay "Days" and such. I mean, no need for a public display of ANY sexuality promotion. And no need to proffer ANY such to children in any way, which is what happens eventually from same.

But, as for the subject, if I had to endorse a death penalty choice, I would choose intolerant assholes rather than gays. I mean, if somebody had to go, clean up the intelligence gene pool first eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 02:12 PM

I wouldn't refresh this without a good reason...

from New Scientist on same sex relationships in nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 02:24 PM

Gay events? I love 'em! Love the celebration, the flamboyance, the carnival.. Any excuse for a party, is a very good excuse, and gay folk can do it so well.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 02:54 PM

"The problem is that while we can observe the sexual behaviour of animals, we often have little inkling about what motivates it."

Like we know what motivates it in humans ...

(actually Bill I liked the article, I just thought that was a funny observation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 04:31 PM

Hi, ..Was super busy, and couldn't get back as soon as I wanted to..

Great article, which also does not come to any conclusions,..BUT, there is something very interesting, toward the end, that I'll refer to. But First I'll address the questions Amos posed, and in answering them, rather than 'proving a point', which is NOT what I'm trying to do, but rather open up larger avenues of thought, about this and other subjects.
Great answers, as well as art, usually comes up from the 'street'!

AMOS:"GfS:

1. Do you believe that all homosexuality is based on an individual decision? If not, does it come from a genetic quirk? Something else?"

GfS:
There's is a huge possibility, that your last choice has the best option,'Something else?'.
If I were to believe the rhetoric, of defensive homosexuals, and their 'champions of political correctness(?)', Then they are in favor of saying that they have no choice...which makes me think that, with that thinking, they are neither given, nor allowed a choice! This is nonsense! Of course they have a choice..to do anything they want. I thought 'liberals' were liberal enough to allow them that, and not take it away. Your last illustration in the article mentions just that....but, how do we get there?..Where did this come from, that maybe we haven't explored yet?..I'll propose something a little further down....
Genetic quirk?....Not so much, as something that may have happened as a fetus. T thought the article just lightly touch on a really good thing, but possibly only scratched the surface..,again, I'll try tio tie that together, with the others.

"2. Do you believe lesbians and male homosexuals are suffering from the same syndrome, from the same cause?"

GfS
Yes, and no. If we are talking about something going on, in the womb, to those, very very possible. But there are many homosexuals, who were NOT born that way, and 'acquired' that as they grew older. Those, in particular, are far less victims of anything, except their own bitternesses, fears, unforgiveness, and self absorption. That is a different category, as far as CAUSE, than the former, the ones from the womb. In short,, some are born that way, and others are hiding behind that rationalization, though it does not apply to them, in their case....Fair enough?
In regards to lesbians, most of us have heard that SOME women have 'penile envy'.do that make them a lesbian, either latent, or overt? No!....unless its taken too far. If it gets to the point where the woman starts to resent her own femininity, and acts upon it, yes, it would be considered a form of 'latent homosexuality'..much the same as CERTAIN women may dress, competitively for other women, or to 'prove' something to, or impress other women, as a focus. The reasons may vary, but again, when it gets to be an obsession, then it could open the door, to greater manifestations, to 'satisfy' an empty place in her heart.
Then again, there are other reasons that I'd love to share with you, but, I think the point has been made. If you want to go into those further, just ask...without the nasty accusations, or remarks. I think with an open mind, it could be not only fun, but mind-opening. and enlightening.

Amos:"3. Do you think homosexuality is evil?"

Gfs:
This is the question, that caused me to wonder, 'Where are you coming from?", or "Where do you think I'm coming from?"
So, to try to clarify one's perception of 'evil', I'll have to use MY perception, on what I think evil is. On an earlier post, I was rather clear on it, but in case people were only scanning my posts to find something to bitch about, I'll repeat; Most people try to do the right thing, given the choices they have. I mean, like, how many of any of us, set out to make a stupid, wrong decision?..then do it. However, if you make a bad decision, based on the only information you have, and the information was bad, or fraudulent, you still would not be an 'evil' person. That only means, that you were deceived..but tried to make the best decision you could, with what you had to work with. Once you find yourself, discovering that you had made a mistake, then you'd go about making a corrective decision, based on the new info, and again your decision making would be base on making the best decision, to correct, and make good on the final outcome. So, that is not what I consider 'evil'...so, in that context, a child, who has been that way from the womb, is not 'evil'. Remember now, we have two different types. One from the womb, as the article alludes to, and the others, who 'acquired' the tendencies growing up. I'll comment on those, when I get back from an appointment...so don't draw any pre-mature conclusions to this, till I get back...
.......To Be continued!!!...................Gotta' run,
Regards,
GfS
4. Do you think homosexuality is reversible or curable, in all cases or most cases? If so what do you think such a reversal requires?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Elspeth Hart
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM

I know you said no premature comments but this is just me thinking out loud.
"4. Do you think homosexuality is reversible or curable etc"

Firstly I want to say that this is possible as it is possible to turn yourself gay. I vaguely remember a documentary about it that said if you associate sexual thoughts of whichever thing you're trying not to be with something bad, then that works. Say trying not to be a gay man- for every sexual thought about another man you use a system to make sure it's associated with negativity. But may I just say that this is considered very unhealthy and an unwise route to take.

Also...I see no reason for LGBTIQ people to change at all. Evil has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the nature of the relationships they engage in. If the nature of the love is good and pure, as it ought to be between a man and woman or any other combination, then there is no evil there.
What ought to be considered immoral are the same things as would be considered immoral in any heterosexual coupling.

Now, please don't think I'm drawing premature conclusions from your writing. Just that 4. got me thinking again and it seemed a relevant place to comment.

...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:01 PM

GfS:

Thanks so much for your very interesting discussion, the clearest presentation of your ideas I have seen (IMHO).

Look forward to your addendum.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:47 PM

"Evil has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the nature of the relationships they engage in. If the nature of the love is good and pure, as it ought to be between a man and woman or any other combination, then there is no evil there."

Agreed. One of the greatest wrongful associations some posters are attempting to assert, is a sexual link between adult homosexuality or *mutual mature sexual attraction between the same sex* and paedophilia or *adult sexual orientation and predation towards sexually immature children.*

I dunno, maybe because I was raped by men who liked little blonde girls, I get on well with men who like men?
I'm sure the resident Circus Therapist can offer an opinion!

I'm fortunate in terms of never hating men (unlike other survivors I've known) who I generally get along well with - especially faggots, queers, bummers and men who like to put their willies in other men's anuses and mouths (I can do more details for GfS & Ake etc. just PM if interested).

I dunno, I just seem to kinda get along with these fruitcakes for some reason.. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM

Hahahahaaa... I think I was wrong about you to a certain extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 06:46 PM

From Bill's linked publication.

"WHEN the documentary film March of the Penguins came out in 2005, some Christians tried to exploit it to promote a conservative social agenda. To them, the penguins' apparent monogamy and selfless parenting affirmed the rightness of traditional family values.

This is a logical error sometimes called the "naturalistic fallacy": you cannot draw inferences about what is right from what happens in nature. Penguin behaviour tells you nothing about human morality.

The same applies to same-sex sexual behaviour in animals (see "Homosexual selection"). It might be tempting to use animal examples to refute claims that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong. That would be a mistake. We have no need for fallacious arguments to support basic human rights"

Qite correct....and my objections to the normalisation of homosexual practice have been purely on health grounds(statistics are available)

My objection to homosexual marriage....again the normalisation of homosexual practice on health grounds and the attempt by homosexual activists to re-define "marriage", allowing it to encompass homosexuality in the face of opposition from the vast majority of Christains worldwide
Nothing at all to do with "evil"

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 06:53 PM

There is a very important difference between the notion of "having no choice", which GfS rebuts roundly, and the statement that homosexuality, as a condition, is not something resulting from choice.

Heterosexuals have the same choice as regards their sexual yearnings as homosexuals, viz., to indulge them, or not. No-one on this thread had argued this is not the case. But having that choice whether or not to practice sexuality is very different from the question of whether the sexual leaning is itself in-built or taken on.

While I agree with GfS that many homosexual individuals--more males than females in my experience--seem to have strains of emotional suppression of some kind in their make-up, I do not know whether this is a causative vector of homosexuality or a resultant vector from it. I suppose it could be either, depending on cases.

Again, I await the second chapter of GfS' discussion with interest.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: fundi3891
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 07:13 PM

Firstly, the death penalty is, for any rationally unimpaired thinking person, a misnomer. The deeds of the living are caused BY THE LIVING and to sentence to death is to succumb to ignorance and evil. If you condone the death penalty, you are an accomplice to murder. There is no two ways about it.

Secondly; homosexuals come in many shapes and forms, as does 'love'.
There are as many purely hedonistic homosexuals as there are purely ascetic. It is up to certain relevant governing bodies to decide the respective rights of homosexuals. ie - rights to bringing up children etc

The main concern I have regarding progressive attitudes to homosexuality is how far they can be taken before being phased out in lieu of more efficient/economical PRODUCTION of 'cannon fodder'...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 07:41 PM

"....allowing it to encompass homosexuality in the face of opposition from the vast majority of Christains (sic) worldwide."

?? Why would the opinions of Christians make any difference whatsoever to doing what is fair?
"...my objections to the normalisation of homosexual practice have been purely on health grounds..."

So you assert on more than one occasion, but I do tend to doubt that...
(am I calling you a liar? No...not directly. It just seems to me that you avoid points that would contradict 'health' as a major objection.)

Look... overeating is a serious health problem, as is smoking and driving too fast! But I don't see those condemned as a 'lifestyle' problem. Why not just treat careless sex practices like alcoholism instead of vague insinuations that homosexuality should get its own version of prohibition?

What WOULD you suggest to reduce health concerns?

It is the case that many, many homosexuals observe rules that reduce relevant health concerns, yet the argument seems to be against **homosexuality**, not just careless habits. It all 'sounds' like a moral argument, no matter how many disclaimers are offered.
WAS being homosexual objectionable before HIV/AIDS? WILL it be if they find a vaccine?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 07:50 PM

"WAS being homosexual objectionable before HIV/AIDS? WILL it be if they find a vaccine?"
      
If HIV/AIDS was recognised back in the sixties, Homosexual practice would never have been de- criminalised!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 07:55 PM

Like Bill D I pick up on this: "My objection to homosexual marriage....again the normalisation of homosexual practice on health grounds and the attempt by homosexual activists to re-define "marriage", allowing it to encompass homosexuality in the face of opposition from the vast majority of Christains worldwide
Nothing at all to do with "evil"

ake, this seems an odd explication of your views. As an atheist, what do you care what the "majority of Christians worldwide" thinks?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 10:07 PM

Okay, I was only able to pop in for a quick 'look-see'....and, as most can see, I have not jumped on the bandwagon of proclaiming anything being evil, except for when one deceives another, intentionally, for selfish motives, without regard for the person they are deceiving, usually to manipulate them, or to bring intentional harm to that person...that's evil! But, to be born with a condition, is in no way 'evil'.

That being said, I'll have to leave, again(drat!), but I'm very much looking forward to sharing my thoughts with you!...and, Thank You all, for being patient, with my schedule. I've got some more insights, that I think you may find very interesting...for, at least, some mental chewing gum.
Thanks for hanging in there!.......TO BE CONTINUED......
Regards, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 10:55 PM

"If HIV/AIDS was recognised back in the sixties, Homosexual practice would never have been de- criminalised!! "

Ok... that's clear enough for me to know what basic attitude drives the tenor of most of your posts on the subject.
but...ummm.. you did avoid once again "coming out of the closet" and telling us what you would have the world DO...

once more: What WOULD you suggest to reduce health concerns?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 03:53 AM

"Ok... that's clear enough for me to know what basic attitude drives the tenor of most of your posts on the subject."

What kind of smarmy remark is that?

I don't believe in criminalising homosexual practice, as I've stated on all the various threads on the subject, I was simply responding to your query.
I suppose you are old enough to remember the attitudes at that time, would you disagree with what i've said?

At least the other promoters of the homosexual lifestyle here, don't try to hide behind smarmy language....my opinion is as valid as yours and backed by the facts!

There are many things which can be done...and have been done to improve the health statistics. I have no time to go into them now but the most important thing is to realise and admit that there is a problem.

Months have been spent on this forum by supporters of Homosexual marriage etc, denying that very fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 04:35 AM

"What kind of smarmy remark is that?"

An accurate one.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 05:20 AM

"This is a logical error sometimes called the "naturalistic fallacy": you cannot draw inferences about what is right from what happens in nature. Penguin behaviour tells you nothing about human morality.

The same applies to same-sex sexual behaviour in animals (see "Homosexual selection"). It might be tempting to use animal examples to refute claims that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong. That would be a mistake. We have no need for fallacious arguments to support basic human rights""


Noone is drawing observations of nature to show that homosexuality is moral or not.

YOU state that it is unnatureal - a psychological defect that runs contrary to nature and natural law. A perversion that goes against natures purpose - the purpose of procreation.


Observations of nature show that Humans are not anomalous to the rest of nature.

They show that the rest of nature also exhibits the same bahaviour.


They show that if Humans only had sex to procreate that we would be the anomaly.


The point isn't that these observations support any "liberal" explanation.

THE POINT IS THAT THEY SHOW YOUR ARGUMENT TO BE WRONG.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 10:28 AM

"....allowing it to encompass homosexuality in the face of opposition from the vast majority of Christains (sic) worldwide."

I don't believe that, upon examination, you would find a majority of Christians, vast or otherwise, so why pray should their opinions carry more weight than those of the Buddhists, Muslims, Shintoists, Zoroastrians, Pagans, Agnostics, and Atheists, to name but a few?

Have you sought their point of view, Ake, to support your opinions, or are they just more of the second class citizens who inhabit your dark and murky conception of how the world should be.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 10:46 AM

""At least the other promoters of the homosexual lifestyle here, don't try to hide behind smarmy language....my opinion is as valid as yours and backed by the facts!""

There goes that red herring across the trail again. It's getting a bit battered and frayed, and I think you need a new one.

Nobody here has promoted, is promoting, or will be promoting homosexuality as a lifestyle.

You and GfS are the only posters here who believe it IS a lifestyle.

We simply recognise that it exists, that it is none of our business (and none of yours), that it harms us not one bit, and that it does not, and cannot, deprive gays of their civil rights and legal status.

Now you can take as many of your opinions as you like, and present them as fact, and you can post on other forums, and cite your own posts as authority for your contentions on this one, both of which you have done.

You will still be wrong.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 11:15 AM

Not wishing to jump ahead of anything to be continued... I have caught up most of the last bits of the thread and find that STILL some of the old myths are still circulating.

Lesbianism and Penis Envy was a Freudian thing, which really just about says it all. The guy was positively sexist in his ways of treatments for women psychologically. Men, too, can get penis envy but they do not become lesbian! Do men suffer "womb envy" I wonder? I am heavily biased at any concept I find with his name attached so forgive me from not being able to be objective where he is concerned. IMHO he knew nothing about women, their lives and, especially, their psychology. Quite an arrogant statement really, considering who he was, but I shall be very kind and say he is 'old school' for sure. Thankfully things have moved on since then. But that would be another topic for sure. Conceptually so many things he said about women have been very damaging and are now considered artefacts. That said, some of the structures he suggested as existing in the brain have recently been 'highlighted' in modern scanning so, who knows? I still think he knew little about women ;-)

Elspeth mentions about non associative thought patterns and negativity. Sadly they tried all that way back all of just 30-40 years ago by 'plugging' gay men 'into the mains' and giving them an electric shock if they shown any excitement at seeing a naked male. It was called aversion therapy and is now illegal in many countries. Lots of gay men killed themselves back then too due to stigma, being treated as criminals and a 'subspecies'. Very often it was a case of 'man's inhumanity to man' as women were often treated entirely different for having same sex relationships. Homosexuality in men was criminal and women were disregarded because no penis was involved. So much revolves around the use of penises! I do not think there were many women lawmakers back then though.

There is also mention of: "I see no reason for LGBTIQ people to change at all. Evil has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the nature of the relationships they engage in". Only the T and I (transgender and intersex) part have nothing to do with sexuality. The former is to do with gender and the latter to do with a physical condition. Many people group these groups and it causes much confusion but they are poles apart as regards sexuality and gender. The distinction is important.

I eagerly await further revalations :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM

I add my voice to Don T's refutation. ake, no one here fits your description: "the other promoters of the homosexual lifestyle here"

Talk about smarmy.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 12:54 PM

And I. I am not a "promoter" of a "homosexual lifestyle" as it is so quaintly put. I am, however, a fierce advocate of civil rights for any minority group, especially any minority group whose way of life does not impact mine in any way whatsoever.

The color of someone's skin or the shape of their eyes or the nature of their religious beliefs (as long as they don't try to force them on me)--or what they do in the privacy of their own homes does not affect me in any way.

And is none of my, or anyone else's, business.

Why should anyone else care?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 01:58 PM

thanks to those who saved me some typing...

"I suppose you are old enough to remember the attitudes at that time, would you disagree with what i've said?"

I am old enough...and I lived in good old **Kansas** at the time....THEY sure would have tried to retain criminal statutes for LOTS of sexual practices, but since when does being able to get lots of votes for smug conservative ideas change what is "fair & reasonable"?

and disagree with what you have said? *shrug*...I guess it depends on what state you live in. Some places have more reasonable populaces & legislators.

"There are many things which can be done...and have been done to improve the health statistics. I have no time to go into them now..."

well, we'll be here when you think of some and have more time.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 02:09 PM

" Don Firth - PM
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 12:54 PM

And I. I am not a "promoter" of a "homosexual lifestyle" as it is so quaintly put. I am, however, a fierce advocate of civil rights for any minority group, especially any minority group whose way of life does not impact mine in any way whatsoever."

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The Ugandan legislators do not have your advantage of freely stating your simply put opinion. If they do, they face the eventual crime of supporting homosexualty. All those who have tried to say something similar to Don have been labled Homosexuals for saying essentially the same thing as Mr. Firth.

The Ugandan bill will pass with a sweeping majority vote in favor of jail and execution of homosexuals. The Sponsors know they face some economic sanctions but I wou bet they are talking to evangelists who may have promised to pipe in money from the mega churches.


PS First Firth, go forth firmly with the fifth.