BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:04 AM

"Hey, I just read Jim Carrol's post, as we cross posted"
Hey, I just cross-posted with one of the homophobic bigots I was writing about - coincidence or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:10 AM

""So I think I shall take to the worship of the 37 Brown·Sugar·Rattlesnake·Gila·Monsters who live in Soudley Ponds in the Forest of Dean — there is, according to your philosophically unchallengeable postulation above, no proof of Their non-existence either. Anyone care to join me? — I bet we could get Lottery Money to build a Temple dedicated to Their worship.""

Smart arse comment missing the points at issue which were:-

1. Those bastards are NOT Christians, nor anything recognisably relating to faith in a deity.

2. Non believers need to stop crapping all over people of faith, because their point of view is JUST ANOTHER BELIEF.

Now go join whatever you like, but don't shit on the human race and call it Christian.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:48 AM

I think the world makes sense without God, it's when we bring him/her into it, that the confusion starts. Who is God ,what is God, where is God, should we not perhaps bury God?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:29 AM

It should be obvious that HIV/AIDS are correlated to promiscuity, not homosexuality. Since heterosexuals have the option of legal marriage, they tend to develop toward it. If homosexuals were equally entitled under law to marry, the incidence of HIV/AIDS would probably decline!

ANd I think you will find, if you examine it honestluy, that what most people her "promote" is not homosexuality but tolerance and compassion. Remember those?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:34 AM

MP, there's no real science or logic in GfS's theories. She/He just makes it up as he/she goes along, using pseudo scientific language in an attempt to disguise the nonsense spouted.

You only have to look at the constant repetitive allusions to "evidence" which turns out to be unsubstantiated opinion from anti gay so called scientists, who coincidentally turn out to be intimately involved in fundamentalist right wing "Christian" sects, and are feeding into their prejudices.

Our two resident misfits are the only ones in the army who are marching in step, so they would have us believe, and one of them even has the nerve to cite himself as an evidential authority, giving a link to his own posts on another forum, as a source for the same posts on this one.

That's carrying the circular argument one step too far, and if these two told me it was raining, I'd not believe them without looking out the window.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: ToeRag
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:54 AM

is Homosexuality a natural phoneme in nature, I think so Homosexuality is widespread in the Animal world.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:17 PM

Scientists knew that pluto existed before they saw it through a telescope.

The likelihood in the face of evidence was so strong that finding it was inevitable.

The Gay Gene hasn't been seen through a microscope ... yet.

It won't be too long before it is found.



Ake has established one fact. That Gay men suffer from aids more than any other demographic.

This fact has no bearing on any of his slanderous claims about gay peoples habits or inclinations, and he has yet to provide any other evidence except that provided by Church organizations and right wing political lobby groups. No actual studies or statistics exist to support his view.

The official mudcat hairdryer, useful for making a lot of noise and producing hot air and not much else besides.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 02:39 PM

GfS, when someone starts farting around with my name, then I know I've scored big, because getting personally insulting and abusive is all you've got. You're displaying what looks a lot like a temper tantrum.

And if I'm taking a long time responding, it's because I was off-line. Eight hours of sleep, among other things. After all, my life, unlike yours apparently, is not composed entirely of sitting at my computer. I DO have a life in the real world. Besides, I know that trying to set you straight is impossible because your head is made up and all the scientific evidence in the world to the contrary will not change it. You will persist in believing what you WANT to believe.

The operative word in my post above is "MAY" (not have been found). Unlike you, I am trying to be fair and objective. There are geneticists who maintain that they HAVE found the gene, and there are brain researchers who have found that there is a consistent difference in a lobe of the hypothalamus between heterosexual and homosexual men that they maintain must be the result of genetic influence. But not all scientists agree.

So—If I was operating with the kind of "scientific integrity" that you operate with, I would be making the flat, unequivocal statement that the gene HAS been found.

Read the rest of my post, the part about the possible mother's role in fetal development. As I said, they may be looking for the gene in the wrong place.

And Ake—I don't dispute the fact that there is much more HIV/AIDS among homosexual men than among heterosexual men. What I do give the lie to is your insistence that the virus springs up spontaneously with homosexual activity where it did not exist before. You know better. Or if you don't, then you're scientific education has been grossly neglected.

By the way, there IS one group of homosexual men in which the HIV/AIDS virus does not exist:    those who are in committed, monogamous relationships, which they tend to regard as marriages, whether the law recognizes it or not. No. No AIDS there. There's a lesson in that.

Don Firth

P. S. Why do I—why do any of us waste our time arguing with these two (yes, I WILL use the word, since, by its dictionary definition, it is the word that applies) BIGOTS?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 03:37 PM

Amos.....Nice to hear from you, nearly always the voice of reason.
I agree with your sentiments regarding tolerance and compassion....nicely put sir.

In saying that, we must never blind ourselves to suffering and death in puting these two emotions into practice.....must we tolerate the obscenity of watching thousands of young men suffering a degrading and painful death because our tolerance and compassion for the people involved will not permit us to question the lifestyle which brings such pain and degradation.

Is our compassion and tolerance helping homosexuals to lead longer or more healthy lives? I think not, we simply carry on with the status quo, close our eyes and our minds to the figures and allow young men to die for our political "principles"

Several of the "walking brain dead" have suggested that it is not homosexuality but promiscuity or anal sex which makes the HIV figures so bad.

Do they not realise that in homosexual practice, promiscuity and anal sex go with the territory!...Risk taking also goes with the territory; and tho' I know only a little of psychiatry, I have read that risk taking and promiscuity are also symptoms of manic depression.

The homosexual gene will never be found, because it does not exist and if the "liberals" cant find it, they will invent it.
Why can they not see that a major medical study into homosexuality and HIV/AIDS would be in the interests of homosexuals and society at large.....is it because the results of such a study may not suit their political agenda....even if it were to save millions of lives...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 03:50 PM

Maybe I should clarify my final paragraph.

"liberals" care more for the political rights of minorities like homosexuals, than in caring for their personal medical wellbeing.

They are perfectly happy to see them...."equal but dead"

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM

Ake, I don't see how your first paragraph in the above post correlates with what Amos says in his most recent post. In case you need one of us walking brain-dead liberals to read it for you, what he is saying is just the opposite of what you keep saying. And, yes, I agree that Amos, as usual, is very much the voice of reason.

Just thought I'd point that disparity out. The rest of your post is just more of your usual inability to reserve judgment in the face of incomplete but ongoing research, along with your thesis that homosexuals need to be marginalized and oppressed for their own good.

Where have we heard that sort of thing before!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM

You miss th e point altogether, Ake. Evidently you would like to have some Cloud Chief decree how people may live and what should happen.

Some of us cleave to a different model. Equal rights under the law, and personal responsibility for the consequences.

Your argument, extended, would make the Founding Fathers responsible for revery hurtful thing ever said, because they made alegal principle of free speech. These are two different things, man.

The right to legal blessing does not relieve married people of personal responsibility for how they live their lives. But it DOES, as Don pointed out, tend to reduce the incidence of promiscuous transmission of STDs. Why is that hard to understand? Why do you think homosexuality, by its nature, is any more prone toward promiscuity than heterosexuality? I have seen huge amounts of promiscuity among heteros. I fail to see why you think homosexuals would be any more promiscuous. In fact, given that hetero sexuality is so much more heavily promoted in ads and magazines and such, it would probably be mor einclined to promiscuous behavior.

So I don't think your arguments hold much merit here.

Obviously, given the mechanics involved, homsexual sex will probably include a higher frequency of anal penetration than hetero sex. Not exclusively, of course, but greater. If said homosexuals are in a monogamous relationship, with legal structural support, the chances of this being a transmission vector are greatly reduced. Not increased.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

Still no evidence Ake?

Yawn.


I would like to clarify a point raised concerning a perceived dispute between whether AIDS is a "homosexual thing" or a "promiscuity thing".


In fact, if AIDS in homosexuals were the result of greater promiscuity we would see the same disparity in the numbers of cases of Ghonnorhea Syphilis and Chlamydia.

However, the CDC report I posted above in this thread shows that in fact, young women and older teenagers are the group most affected by these diseases.

So it isn't promiscuity that makse the difference.

Also, it is fairly obvious to anyone with any vague understanding of science that Sperm + Blood does not equal HIV. HIV is an organism that infects those to whom it has been transmitted.


So what is the reason for the high proportion of cases of AIDS amongst homosexual men?

I am as interested to know as anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:15 PM

Dear me Amos,

The very idea of Ake disapproving of Free Speech!

Are you not aware of how his freedom of speech has been ruthlessly surpressed on the Mudcat by the henchmen of the Liberal Fascist contingent?

Boy - it's a harrowing tale - but he's been strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:17 PM

"However, the CDC report I posted above in this thread shows that in fact, young women and older teenagers are the group most affected by these diseases."

That should have read "young women and older teenage girls".

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM

"Do they not realise that in homosexual practice, promiscuity and anal sex go with the territory!..."

Do you not realise that not all homosexual men have anal sex? (Did I just feel a jaw drop somewhere?). Anal sex is not the soul preserve of homosexuals either. But whether they do or not is irrelevant because lots of gay men are dying at the hands of violence just because they are who they are. Why not campaign against the violence that ends so many lives early?

HIV/AIDS not only affects gay populations. No more than other STI's do. It is a HUMAN Immunodeficiency Virus Deficiency virus. It's not a "letsonlypickongatpromiscuousmen immunodeficiency virus"... it affects, ot has the potential to affect, all HUMAN BEINGS.

I sometimes wonder if a virus had come about that excluded the gay populations, sexually transmitted, what would all the straight people have done about it? The fact is there is a disease out there affecting straight populations and they seem to be blase about it, in many cases, and do not use safe sex. Gay males are not the only promiscuous humans out there. And, in some countries, it is not homosexuality that is responsible for the high death toll. It's straight sexual practices and the lack of contraception that is abetting the spread and increasing death tolls among men, women and children.

This is not liberalism. I have no political agenda. But I will stand up for the rights of homosexuals, wrongly accused, as much as I will for Christians, wrongly accused, because the damage being done is not by them but by closed thinking (in the least) and hateful propaganda levied at them. As I have said earlier in the thread, there are lots of dangerous, risky and deadly lifestyles that are actually chosen. Why do people not campaign against them and leave people who are doing no harm to anyone alone? I still maintain they have no choice over being homosexual, but if they choose to take risks with their own lives with unsafe sex, like so many straight people do, then that is thier choice and no-one elses.

Why do some so want to blame others all the time instead of putting their own house in order? It truly saddens me.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM

Aids is not a fucking joke Don!
It is deadly serious, especially for people who habitually take sexual risks, indulge in anal sex and lead promiscuous lifestyles.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

There's no hope for the world, if you lot are representative.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM

"Aids is not a fucking joke Don!"

No one said it was, Ake. But you are the one who wants to keep homosexuals promiscuous by denying gays the right to form stable, monogamous relationships.

AIDS is not a fucking joke, Ake!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:03 PM

Foe fuck sake Amos, you cant have it both ways!

On the one hand your team says "It is not homosexuality, but promiscuity", which causes the horrific homosexual AIDS figures.....then you come along and contend that homosexuals in general, are no more promiscuous than heteros.

You have one big problem Amos....keeping your team on message...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:09 PM

Don..... can you not get it into your skull,that the vast majority of homosexuals do not want a stable monogamous relationship?

And in addition to that, the figures I posted earlier say that the average homosexual union lasts only between 1 and 2 years!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

"On the one hand your team says "It is not homosexuality, but promiscuity", which causes the horrific homosexual AIDS figures.....then you come along and contend that homosexuals in general, are no more promiscuous than heteros."

I wish you would pay attention.

You marvel at my apparent newfound computer literacy, yet you seem unable to read or comprehend written English.

But to remind you (as it was oh so long ago) - and I hope no-one minds the cut and paste job.
__________________________________________

"I would like to clarify a point raised concerning a perceived dispute between whether AIDS is a "homosexual thing" or a "promiscuity thing".


In fact, if AIDS in homosexuals were the result of greater promiscuity we would see the same disparity in the numbers of cases of Ghonnorhea Syphilis and Chlamydia.

However, the CDC report I posted above in this thread shows that in fact, young women and older teenagers are the group most affected by these diseases.

So it isn't promiscuity that makse the difference.

Also, it is fairly obvious to anyone with any vague understanding of science that Sperm + Blood does not equal HIV. HIV is an organism that infects those to whom it has been transmitted.


So what is the reason for the high proportion of cases of AIDS amongst homosexual men?

I am as interested to know as anyone else."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM

"Foe fuck sake Amos, you cant have it both ways!"

I think that's a matter for Amos to decide in the privacy of his own home ... ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:03 PM

Don..... can you not get it into your skull,that the vast majority of homosexuals do not want a stable monogamous relationship?

According to you, perhaps, but I think all of your "knowledge" (the part you don't make up yourself) comes from reading web sites that support your already formed opinion.

I hear otherwise from real, live people. I'm not afraid to talk frankly with men who are homosexual, and because I don't look at them with prejudice and contempt, they are quite willing to talk frankly with me. Most of them would like very much to have a stable, monogamous relationship with another man. But it's the reactions of other people and their lack of willingness to accept that kind of relationship that makes it extremely difficult to sustain them. Get that? Other peoples' interference!

If there were some sort of legal recognition, or for that matter, recognition by a church willing to do so (such as the one Barbara and I belong to), it would make all the difference in the world; some sorth of social support that would make it easier to withstand the disapproval of the busybodies whose business it is not.

And in addition to that, the figures I posted earlier say that the average homosexual union lasts only between 1 and 2 years!

Recognized same sex unions (whether regarded as legal or not, but recognized, say, by the church my wife and I belong to, or are acknowledged without prejudice by their friends as a couple) tend to be more stable and long-term than many heterosexual marriages.

Barbara had a friend, a boy, from grade school who turned out to be gay. In his mid-twenties, he met another gay man. They bought a house in Southern California, where they are still living. One of them is a college professor (now retired) and the other (Barbara's old school chum) is an expert on English history and American Civil War history. He tutors high school and college students (like kids of movie stars and such) who are not doing well in school. They make a regular trip to England every year, where the college professor is invited to participate in seminars having to do with theater arts. Barbara and I have visited them in California a number of times, and they have also come here to Seattle.

Many heterosexual married couples don't have as stable and loving a relationship as these two do.

Ake, you need to get away from the computer and meet some real people. And instead of being so dogmatic, shut your mouth and open your eyes and ears. And your MIND.

You might be amazed at what you can learn about the real world.

That is, if you are really interested.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

Dogmatic?.....moi??

I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals. Is that being dogmatic?

Your insistance that all is well with the homosexual lifestyle in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is dogmatism!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:21 PM

Speaking of meeting real people...I've known at least three openly homosexual men back when I was living in Toronto. One was a musician...an interesting guy who had a long career in the folk-rock field, played in a band backing Dylan once, and we shared a common interest in model aircraft. I don't think he was looking around much for a monogamous relationship. He played the field.

Another guy was living in a rooming house where I rented for awhile. Again, very interesting guy, terrific conversationalist, but I think he was playing the field too as far as I know.

The third guy was an artist, a good friend for many years, and a very bright and amusing character. Again, he seemed to pretty much play the field as far as I could see. He died young of some illness. I don't know if it was AIDS or what it was, but I heard from mutual friends that he had passed away.

I draw no particular conclusions from the above, I'm just recounting my own direct personal acquaintances with friends who were openly homosexual. They didn't try to hide it from anyone, and it didn't create any problems between them and me and the general circle of people I knew at the time.

I've also known a handful of women who were lesbians. Again, it simply wasn't a problem. Not for me, anyway. Maybe for their parents? I can't say.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:36 PM

Since the cross-over of SIV to humans, one thing is certain. Stopping homosexuality will not stop the spread of HIV in humans. It's clear that although the 'first' reports of AIDS in North America were amongst gay men, the organism existed long before that in the human population, and not only amongst the homosexual population.

"Four of the earliest known instances of HIV infection are as follows:

A plasma sample taken in 1959 from an adult male living in what is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo.9
A lymph node sample taken in 1960 from an adult female, also from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. (10)
HIV found in tissue samples from an American teenager who died in St. Louis in 1969. (11)
HIV found in tissue samples from a Norwegian sailor who died around 1976. (12)
A 1998 analysis of the plasma sample from 1959 suggested that HIV-1 was introduced into humans around the 1940s or the early 1950s. (13)

In January 2000, the results of a new study (14) suggested that the first case of HIV-1 infection occurred around 1931 in West Africa. This estimate (which had a 15 year margin of error) was based on a complex computer model of HIV's evolution.

However, a study in 2008 (15) dated the origin of HIV to between 1884 and 1924, much earlier than previous estimates. The researchers compared the viral sequence from 1959 (the oldest known HIV-1 specimen) to the newly discovered sequence from 1960. They found a significant genetic difference between them, demonstrating diversification of HIV-1 occurred long before the AIDS pandemic was recognised."

So, unless the name of the game here is to slam homosexuals, then please deal with the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:43 PM

In the US homosexuals are 50 times more likely to develop Aids than heterosexuals...fact....please explain.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:48 PM

I respectfully request the medical source of that fact, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:00 PM

CDC...read the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:01 PM

I would prefer facts from an organization like CDC or WHO, not places like

www.afec.org/issues/homosexuality/facts.htm

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:02 PM

Nope. Please provide the link or address. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:08 PM

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:najCMCXqob0J:www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/aug/09082609.html+homosexuals+more+likely+to+get

Is that the site you quote?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:11 PM

Hell, Ake. The bias in that article just GLOWS.

By Patrick B. Craine

ATLANTA, Georgia, August 24, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - An official with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) announced the CDC's estimate Monday that in the United States AIDS is fifty times more prevalent among men who have sex with men ('MSM') than the rest of the population. Dr. Amy Lansky revealed this statistic during a plenary session at the 2009 HIV Prevention Conference in Atlanta.

The CDC had already revealed last year that approximately 53% of the estimated 56,300 new HIV cases in 2006 were in homosexual men, with the African American population being particularly affected.

The new statistics, however, estimate the prevalence of HIV/AIDS relative to the homosexual population, which allows comparisons to other groups in the wider population. Because of the difficulty of determining the homosexual population, the CDC had to estimate. Based on a variety of national surveys, they based their statistics on the median estimate that homosexual men constitute 4 percent of the overall male population, reports RH Reality Check.

According to Dr. Lansky, then, based on the 4 percent figure, the CDC estimates that in 2007 there were 692.2 new HIV cases per 100,000 homosexual men - or fifty times more cases than the rest of the population.

While merely an approximation, the CDC's announcement confirms previous statistics and studies that indicate vastly disproportionate occurrence of sex-related diseases in homosexuals. According toa February 2007 study, for example, homosexual men with HIV are 90 times more likely to develop anal cancer than the rest of the population.

Earlier this year, as another example, the Centers for Disease Control released a statistical report indicating that homosexual men made up 65 percent of the reported primary and secondary syphilis cases in 2007. A report from the Public Health Agency of Canada in 2006 revealed that 51 percent of people infected with HIV in the country were homosexual men.

In fact, the statistics on HIV/AIDS led one group, the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center, to state in 2006 that HIV/AIDS is a "gay disease," in a billboard ad campaign geared to reducing rates of HIV infection.

While homosexualists have actively suppressed such statistics in the past and focused on portraying HIV/AIDS as a disease affecting the whole population in an equal fashion, the statistics' increasing undeniability has forced their hand. Rather than admit any inherent problem with homosexual practice itself, however, the apparent prevalence of disease among practicing homosexuals has led them to switch tactics and use these statistics to urge governments and other organizations to increase support to the homosexual communities.

Asking why it has taken so long for the CDC to make its estimate about the high prevalence of AIDS among homosexual men, homosexual activist Dr. Senterfitt chalked it up to 'homophobia'. "Seems clear to me," he says, "that this was at least an indirect effect of the pervasive homophobia still affecting much of government, public policy, media and societal norms in this country."

"We must fight for funding and adequate social investment to end HIV/AIDS wherever it continues to persist and thrive," he argues, "which is almost always where concentrated social injustice also thrives."

Pro-family advocates, on the other hand, maintain that the prevalence of sex-related diseases among homosexuals is clear evidence of the disorder of homosexual practice. For example, in a commentary for LifeSiteNews.com published last year, J. Matt Barber stated, "By recently admitting that 'HIV is a gay disease,' Matt Foreman, outgoing Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, acknowledged what the medical community has known for decades: the homosexual lifestyle is extremely high-risk and often leads to disease and even death."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:25 PM

Ake,

Dr Amy Lansky's figures are about ten years old. I'm not. She points out that there were then 692.2/100,000 NEW cases of HIV in the homosexual population. The further extrapolations in that article come from someone else who, it seems has some sort of axe to grind with the homosexual population. Not a good source, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM

Reality Check.

The Life Site News web site from which that article came is a Christian fundamentalist site devoted to "Life, Family, and Culture." Nuff said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM

Little Hawk, also over the years I have known a number of gay men (musicians, actors, one dancer—generally in the Arts one way or the other ["Oh, goodie!" some might crow. "Stereotypes!"]), who seemed to be generally playing the field, but not any more promiscuously than any other single male (!), and there, as you say, none of them ever came on to me.

But these guys were not dummies, and when and if they had a sexual relationship with another man, they were certain aware of what the risks were, and I know they were smart enough to a) know the other person well enough to be aware of their state of health, and b) even so, take the necessary precautions.

Some years ago I was acquainted with a few gay men who had contracted AIDS, but that was before the outbreak was well under way. None lately that I am aware of.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:33 PM

HIV/AIDS deaths and people living with HIV/AIDS are still most prevalent in Africa. 50% of the people worldwide living with the disease are female. It is and has been a disease most devastating to heterosexual individuals in terms of numbers. To conclude that homosexuals are largely responsible for the spread of the disease is simply ignorant. The numbers say otherwise.   



AIDS statistics around the world

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:41 PM

I'm sure the overall situation has changed a great deal, Don, since everyone (heterosexuals included) is well aware that the risks of unprotected promiscuity have gone way up. Of those guys I mentioned, I knew one of them in the 70s and the other two in the early 80s.

One of them did proposition me one time...but he didn't "come on" to me in any aggressive way, he just asked if I was interesting in "going out with him", so to speak. That was the artist guy in the 70s. I was quite surprised, because I hadn't realized he was gay. He said, "Well, I thought maybe you were, because you haven't had a girlfriend that I know of in the last couple of years that I've known you..."

I laughed. "Yeah, that's true," I said, "but it's not because I'm gay, it's because I'm simply hopeless at finding myself a girlfriend. I'm usually in love with some female who isn't with me, and she's always interested in someone else. I could hardly BE more desirous of women than I already am..."

So that was that. We continued having our coffee and talking about some other stuff instead. That was Phil. He was a pretty cool guy, and a totally wacky artist, but he had talent.

I don't think I know anyone at present who has contracted AIDS. If so, I haven't heard a word about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:48 PM

I want to clarify something I said earlier, that all those guys were openly gay. Phil had "come out" not too long before he had that conversation with me, but I hadn't heard anything about it, so I was surprised when he propositioned me. He had been living with a Trinidadian woman not too long before that, so I simply assumed he was heterosexual. He was, in fact, bisexual...but his later preference seemed to be for homosexuality after the relationship with the Trinidadian girl had ended.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:23 PM

Ake,

"I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals. Is that being dogmatic?"


No, you've implied and then later confirmed on more than one thread that you think Gay men are closet paedophiles and that they are more promiscuous than everyone else.

This dogma remains unsupported.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:33 PM

Little Hawk, back in the late 1950s, Cecil, a friend of mine told me an absolutely harrowing story.

It was one of those extremely rare weather phenomena in Seattle (probably not that rare in Ontario) when it snowed several inches, then froze. This kind of thing can shut Seattle down. A bunch of people were partying it up and suddenly found that they were frozen in. The last person with a car had already left, the buses had stopped running, and the cab companies weren't answering their phones (nothing but busy signals). In short, about eight people were stranded. There were enough beds there if people slept double.

After a lot of shuffling and dealing, Cecil, to his horror, wound up assigned to sleep with Tony. Tony, even back in the Fifties, was out. Very out! Positively swishy!

Cec and Tony went to bed. Cec was tense. He was apprehensive. He was on his guard. In fact, he didn't sleep all night! He lay there with his muscles in a knot. It was a horrible night. For him, a waking nightmare. A wide-awaking nightmare! The longest night of his life!

He got up the next morning with multiple bags under his eyes and feeling like someone had dropped a grand piano on him.

Tony had rolled over and gone to sleep immediately, slept soundly all night, and woke up refreshed, bright-eyed, and bushy-tailed.

He wasn't the least bit interested in Cec.

Poor Cecil. Much ado about nothing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:54 PM

LOL! That's not harrowing, Don, it's funny.

Yeah, we have those storms here now and then. I think you call that an ice storm, and it's a nasty business, specially if there's a power outage from the ice bringing down branches or trees, and there often is.

Some people, Don, cannot sleep all night if anyone is in the same bed with them, regardless of sexual orientation. Maybe even if anyone is in the same room with them. I have the sad fate of being one of those people. It's simply that my mind is too active, and the awareness of the other person being there...just the simple awareness itself...keeps me awake. It's not that I'm worried about them being there. I just cannot stop my mind from thinking about it. I have, in desperation, tried meditative techniques, etc, to stop that from happening, but nothing works except experiencing it repeatedly for some time until the complete lack of sleep finally exhausts me so much that my body falls asleep out of total enervation.

Trust me...it's worse than what Cecil experienced. It lasts longer.

The first time I acquired a steady live-in girlfriend, I barely slept for about 3 solid months! And it wasn't because of the sex. Nope. It was because I simply needed to be alone in the bed to fall asleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:30 PM

With Cecil, it wasn't quite that way. We were going to the University of Washington together and often met for coffee at the student union building cafeteria. With dozens if not hundreds of people around and several people at the same table, I've seen him fall asleep with his chin in his coffee cup.

I was surprised that he was that apprehensive about Tony. Tony was definitely gay, but he played it for all it was worth. He worked every stereotype. I'm pretty sure it was an attention-getting device. Of course, it could get him punched out, and on more than one occasion, a couple of guys would jump him and beat him up just for the hell of it.

I thought he was a real snort! Over the top! Sometimes he and I would do off-the-cuff jokes, mainly to shock and horrify people in the vicinity. Once we were sitting in a booth in a coffee shop near the university. There were five of us at the table. I was in an inner corner and Tony had pulled up a chair and was sitting at the end of the table.

At one point, Tony said, "Don, would you pass me a napkin?"

I reached for the napkin dispenser, and—the devil made me do it. I asked him, "Super, regular, or junior?"

Everybody's chin hit the table. Tony looked at me with a smirk and said, "Oh, Donnie, you are such a bitch sometimes."

All in good fun, but the rest of the people didn't know it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:36 PM

The problem with Ake is not the specific facts he quotes, many of which 'may' be accurate, but with what assumptions he and many others make about what conclusions can be drawn from data.

That is: one can state that there is 'higher incidence of HIV in certain populations' or that 'no one has found the "gay gene" yet' or even that 'specific sexual practices may make it easier to contract AIDS'.........but those (if they are true) are simply data!

None of these assumptions says anything relevant about the **moral** relevance of homosexuality! There are many human practices which are 'dangerous'...like rock climbing...or military service! But few would suggest that we ban or discriminate against those who indulge!

Ake...and others who are indignantly flinging data about are also implicitly suggesting that homosexuality IS a choice, that it is somehow immoral (was it immoral BEFORE HIV?), and that defending the rights of homosexuals is the same as promoting it.

There is this shifting back & forth from one asertion to another when they are challenged, creating a circular argument as they answer one rebuttal with a re-statement of a previously discredited claim....

You see what is happening? Ake...and others ...have a predetermined notion of what the truth NEEDS to be, so they use rhetoric and cherry-picking of facts to try to prop up their argument.
If we typed 47 paragraphs explaining WHY HIV affects a larger % of homosexual men than 'straight' men, and why it proves nothing relevant to any moral question, he would just switch the focus and eventually either just deny our conclusions or toss out some other set of 'facts' from some study done by some group which also has a predetermined 'answer' to promote!

YOU CANNOT WIN when debating those whose mind is made up at the beginning....all you can do it put some reasonable points out so that others might see them.... and several have done a pretty good job of that.

(sheesh... I wish I had typed all that when I wasn't so tired. I don't think I said it very well...but maybe I got across what a flawed argument form Ake is using.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 12:31 AM

"YOU CANNOT WIN when debating those whose mind is made up at the beginning....all you can do it put some reasonable points out so that others might see them.... and several have done a pretty good job of that."

Exactly so, Bill. I'm not so foolish that I think I can change the minds of people like Ake and GfS. They have their agenda and they will not waver from it. My concern (and I don't really think I have to continue being that concerned) is the confusion of the innocents – trying to set the record straight for any who might by impressed by Ake's "statistics" and GfS's claim that s/he knows because s/he's a "counselor." Neither has demonstrated that they are competent at their claimed professions. Quite the contrary.

Hell's bells, I've got a life to lead. I really don't need to dedicate my life to repeatedly refuting the perpetually recycled ravings of a couple of – here's the dreaded word again – bigots.

(Sorry, Little Hawk, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 02:18 AM

If gay men are inclined towards multiple partners rather than stable coupledom, and as a gay man myself I know that this is not wildly inaccurate, it is nothing to do with sexuality. It is to do with masculnity (most STRAIGHT men would also rut around rather than 'settle down'), and with capitalism (which has carved out a very lucrative little market in constructing the clubs and bars of the ''''gay scene'''').

Gay ''''''''promiscuity''''''' is also a direct consequence of homophobia: if you have finally decided it's OK to do something you have been told for years that you should not do, wouldn't you gorge yourself by doing it as often as you could ???

The question of why so many gay men choose to put health concerns as a lower priority is the most difficult one to resolve. But it won't be resolved by those in this thread who want to peddle the myths that homosexuality is intrinsically wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:05 AM

Ok, this thread seems to now be flushing out a few people who reckon homosexuality is wrong.

Why is it wrong?

Why have a group of people claiming to follow the teachings of a possibly mythical person, who reckoned to preach love, tolerance and understanding... want to kill people for their lifestyle? Especially as their lifestyle does not affect or interfere with their own lives?

To keep a folk aspect to it, I know many people who wouldn't and couldn't understand Morris dancing, sticking your finger in your ear and singing about reed cutting despite being born, bred and living in a city.

But many people do.

And enjoy it.

The difference being that nobody has an ingrained hatred of such people. Hobbies and interpretations of entertainment may not be the same as the bloke next door, but he doesn't open a page of a 2,000 year old book and claim the book says to kill them? Or if he did, we have a medical diagnosis for such behaviour.

To anybody who says homosexuality is wrong.. So, what is right then? Can we have a list so we can bow to your smug sanctimonious pathetic illness?

Just because I could never be gay, (it might make my eyes water,) doesn't mean that I despise people who are. I don't understand the fascination with bell ringing either yet my wife's family seem to revolve around it. Still married her. I didn't point and laugh....

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:36 AM

999...Sorry. I've been in bed for a few hours.
I referred to the CDC figures that 53% of all new cases in the US are among homosexuals. As homosexual make up 2-3% of the US population, the likelyhood of homosexual or heterosexual contraction can be easily extrapolated by most people.

Smedley...Thank you for your honesty.
Do you not think that the lower priority of health matters has something to do with the "Risk taking" referred to earlier....and do you put any credence on my view that manic depression may affect the behaviour of many homosexuals?

Manic depression is more widespread in all sections of the population than most people realise and can lead to all kinds of risky and destructive behaviour like addictions, promiscuity etc....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:38 AM

only woulld a dialogue between the nation that spawned idi amin on the one hand and theology that spawned the westboro' baptist church on the other would make such propositions have any credence!