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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM Royston, It may be hard, at first, to think I'm not going to be 'on your side', when I post to you, however, I'm on all our sides here; re-read some of my recently posted comments about numbers, and playing Russian Roulette, in our sex lives; the numbers aren't important, as to justify or attack homosexuality vs. heterosexuality. Promiscuity in either, IS STUPID!!! In homosexuality, though to some, it might not seem that way to all, in the current moment..so to them, it isn't; To some, it is a 'phase', and as time goes on, some re-think their position, as witnessed by a flurry of posts, that said, this or that person knew one, to several, who may have changed...that's their business; but it seems rather unfair to those, to whom that may happen, to lock the doors, to that option. Fair enough??? As to those persons, who are miserable during a transition, no matter what the outcome....well, whom wouldn't be?????...even heteros, who found that getting laid had to take an abrupt change,..well, to ANYTHING else. I would think as a person, who cares about the human condition, would be supportive, at least to keeping doors open, doors to the options open, the options open, and the options within the options open!! There is should be no reason, for anyone feeling hostility, for anyone exercising that freedom, and taking that option....and let's not 'hate' anyone, or assume that 'hate' is coming from the one side to the other, and then act, as if that person threatens us. My position is that a political view, in regards to this issue,(others too), should NOT start with a political agenda, to dictate to science, and fit the appropriate doctrine, about what CAN'T be. Hasn't that way of thinking from BOTH sides, done enough to chip away at our personal freedoms????...any more???? Regards, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:39 PM Don: "Therefore, the intelligent thing to do is to do everything possible to encourage stable, monogamous relationships." YES!!!!!!!!! MY EXACT POINT FROM THE BEGINNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks! (until your next post)..wink! Well, Jeez, GfS! why didn't you say so in the first place, instead of saying (for what seems like a couple thousand posts now) "they need to be cured." ???????? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:39 AM Royston, re your "Look, I'm so sick of wasting my time on Keith's contorted and fantastical half-truths. I just googled 'size uk gay population' and learned enough to know what I suspected - that this 1 percent thing is yet another of Keith's more pernicious concoctions. There are a range of estimates, the page on the subject from avert.org.uk seems quite balanced." This is from the Gay Men's Sex Survey, funded by the Terence Higgins Trust and the Department of Health The Census tells us how many males there are in the UK and this is our starting point to describe the age profile of all men that have sex with men (MSM). The National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (NSSAL) tells us the proportion of all men that are homosexually active. We estimate that right now in the UK, there are 500,000 men who will have sex with another man in the next five years http://www.sigmaresearch.co.uk/files/GMSS-BS1-age.pdf (500 000 is less than 1% of the population. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:49 AM Lox re your "200/60,000,000 is not a higher proportion than 1200/60,250,000 So the proportion is still increasing." Rise of infected heteros 1200, out of 60m = 0.002% rise Rise of population 250 000 out of 60m =0.4% (200 times bigger) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:52 AM I only counted immigrants for the population rise, not births. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:24 AM Don; "Well, Jeez, GfS! why didn't you say so in the first place, instead of saying (for what seems like a couple thousand posts now) "they need to be cured." Why did you repeatedly misquote, re-interpret, change them meaning of what I was saying, to get the other 'catters pissed off at me?? Often you steered the thread into a politically based bias, which got everyone fighting and sounding more hostile than we were. Little Hawk, Joe Offer, and myself had remarked to you, about that. Personally, I was not off base, though I'm aware my rhetoric can be, rather inflammatory, in the satire. When that is turned into being ill spirited, less gets accomplished. That being said, Don, I have to thank you, in an odd sort of way! A LOT of great information got out, that would have not gotten there, had we not 'sparred'. We made music, together!!...even though it took a while to get tuned, in the middle of the piece, and to get the groove going, a lot of people got entertained, danced, and got turned on to the 'message' of the song!!...Wink!! Hope your Day looks up!, Regards!, GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:35 PM Keith, I'm in transit again and won't be able to read the site you link to until tomorrow probably. On what I read from your post, do you want to use the time to retract your assertion that there are only about half a million gay men in this country? I did read the sexual attitudes surveys and other official data when I called you out on this point and you ARE wrong. I suspect the THT report concludes something quite different from your claim. Think about It, confession is good for the soul. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:51 PM Just a couple of simple questions for you, GfS: Are you schizophrenic? Or a victim of multiple personality disorder? Or are there several people using the GfS moniker? YOU have lied through your teeth about ME all through two threads now, and made up libelous stories about me, obviously because you didn't like the data I was posting that refuted your contention that homosexuality can be cured by the right counsellor, and you couldn't argue the points, so you attacked me personally. And now you are trying to say that it's me who's been trying to do that to you! Which boils down to the fact that you are still at it. Truth is something you are not capable of. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 05 Feb 10 - 01:51 PM Keith, Your response is sleight of hand I'm afraid. Your comparison is false. Its like comparing the number of Runs scored by Botham to the number of Goals scored by Beckham and saying that Botham is better cos he got more. How is it like that? Because the numbers being compared represent completely different things. The comparison you need to make to decide whether the proportion of infected hetero's is rising or not, is between the Percentage of infected heteros before and percentage of infected heteros after. both percentages are found using the formula "number of infected hetero's divided by number of heterosexuals". You will find that todays percentage is higher than that from 8 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:04 PM Don, No I've always been truthful to you...of course, I only had to go with what you gave me!.....However you proved a worthy fiddle! Counseling, was not my primary 'occupation' in life. However, I got real good at it. what a lot of people don't understand is that a good counselor has to be able to draw, the person out!! The rest, gives an opportunity to get one to think, rather than TELL them WHAT to think. Also, a well placed QUESTION, can change a life!!...However, you proved a worthy fiddle! (wink!) Speaking of that very thing........(Oh 'Blue Clicky' magician?????? Need help)..From dearest friends! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYNwAaduFg AND: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nDrVQ6C5so Enjoy!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:22 PM So. A couple of clips from the "Celtic Woman" show, with an accompanying on-line "I.Q. test." What's that supposed to prove? In high school I had an I.Q. test (Stanford-Binet), and a similar but different test in my college entrance exams. And for certain jobs, I have had to take similar tests. I can say that I am quite pleased and gratified with the results. But I'm not going to broadcast those results because I have noted that it is characteristic of sessions in which people get to comparing I.Q.s, as it goes around the table, everyone's I.Q. gets higher. No one will fess up that they have a lower I.Q. than any of those who precede them. Besides, whenever I've played with one of those on-line quizzes, it always turns out that someone is trying to sell me something, and I wind up with about a dozen tracking cookies from their web site. You've always been truthful to (about) me? Not bloody likely! With the meager information I mentioned about my private life on the Prop 8 thread, you shuffled the events, interpreted them in your own manner, putting the worst possible spin on them, then blew them all out of proportion and wrote a whole new scenario trying to make me look like a self-centered clod and an irresponsible father. Those who know me and know what the real situation was (is) would be tempted to slap you silly for that attempt to libel me. And THEN—on the basis of your fictions, you have the unmitigated temerity to try to offer me counseling in an open internet forum! GfS, If you actually are a psychological counselor, you would be aware that sort of thing is a gross violation of professional ethics. #### So am I to assume from what you've said in your most recent posts that you now favor same-sex marriages (if only as the best way to reduce promiscuity by encouraging stable, monogamous relationships) and that you no longer maintain that same-sex orientation is a psychopathic condition that can be cured through counseling (despite all the evidence to the contrary), and that you now repudiate Richard Cohen, the self-proclaimed "ex-gay" who, without training or credentials, maintains that he can "cure" homosexuals—by lying on a sofa with them, fondling and caressing them, and assuring them that they are loved? By the way, I would suggest that any Mudcatter who has the stomach for it can go back over what you have posted and what I have posted on both this thread and the "Prop 8" thread and read who actually said what. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Ebbie Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM Don Firth's statements are accurate to the last degree. If GfS is truly of the opinion that he espoused in his last post, he is delusional. Either that or he hopes others' memories are real, real short. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 05 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM OK Keith, Sigma Research. An university of Portsmouth unofficial sex quiz with clipboards at Gay Pride in London. The Gay Men's Sex Survey - an online self-selecting sex quiz with no validation of the participants or academic rigour. Now dropped by Sigma because they worked out that it was meaningless and they admit to it all on their own website Follow Keith's link and browse about. The figure of 500,000 is not their assertion of the number of gay men, it is a big assumption about the number of men who think they will have sex with another man in the next 5 years. The idea comes from the national survey of sexual attitudes and lifestyles, which is only a survey of 11,000 people. It found 8.6% of male respondents reported having had sex with another man. Keith, you are a devious and untrustworthy piece of work. You rarely tell bald les, but you hardly ever tell the truth either, do you? For what it's worth (which is not a lot) look at the discussion of the sexual attitudes and lifestlye survey http://www.avert.org/gay-people.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:57 PM I don't know about the 'IQ' Test..that's not why I posted the links..other than that.....there you two go again!! Grinning, GfS P.S. I don't know how you construed me being 'in favor' of same sex marriages....just another one of your twisting of stuff, I suppose, but I guess I'm used to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Ebbie Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:26 PM P.S. I don't know how you construed me being 'in favor' of same sex marriages....just another one of your twisting of stuff, I suppose, but I guess I'm used to it." GfS Construed from this, possibly: "Don: "Therefore, the intelligent thing to do is to do everything possible to encourage stable, monogamous relationships." "YES!!!!!!!!! MY EXACT POINT FROM THE BEGINNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' It seems that you didn't mean it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:33 PM Ebbie, what word in the posts, did you construe as meaning 'homosexual marriage'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Feb 10 - 10:51 PM Let me add a little emphasis for your enlightenment and edification, GfS (also, you might try putting your glasses on). Don:Do you own a good dictionary, GfS? Do you ever use it? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Feb 10 - 11:56 PM Let me assist. mo•nog•a•my Etymology: French monogamie, from Late Latin monogamia, from Greek, from monogamos monogamous, from mon- + gamos marriage, from gamein to marry Date: 1612 1 archaic : the practice of marrying only once during a lifetime 2 : the state or custom of being married to one person at a time 3 : the condition or practice of having a single mate during a period of time — mo•nog•a•mous \mə-ˈnä-gə-məs\ also mono•gam•ic \ˌmä-nə-ˈga-mik\ adjective — mo•nog•a•mous•ly adverb Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,keith devious and untrustworthy A Date: 06 Feb 10 - 11:21 AM Lox, in your calculation a few posts back, you factored in 10 years rise in infection but only one year's population rise. Try it again and you will see that the proporton infected is falling. The AVERT site Royston recommends, suggest 4.6% of men are MSMs. That means 2.3% of population instead of the 1% I was using. That does not negate a single one of my points. The debate is not advanced one iota. Just empty point scoring. Was it worth it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM I see it is 4.3% and that is for 16 - 24 year olds which is maybe young. The figure for all men who have ever had genital contact sex with men is about 6%, so 3% of population. I am happy to work with that. It still does not change anything i have said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Feb 10 - 01:06 PM 6.3% in 2000 The earlier survey, which was a bigger sample, only got 3.7% (1.9% of pop) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:01 PM Jeez, Don, Do you have the attention span of a mayfly?? Read my earlier post, and the CONTEXT of my statement. I was talking about giving homosexuals the CHOICE,(which you seem to object to), for those who were possibly 'going through a 'phase', and may want to have children of their own(with their own female wife). Read the post again. I was not 'bagging' on homosexuals, I was merely saying that SOME, may, (that is if your political doctrines), would PERMIT them!! I also said, that to some, that may not be the case. Not only that, earlier in this thread, it was well covered, though not that much by me, that homosexual partnerships tend to have a higher promiscuity, rate than married heteros. That being said, I'm not in any way excusing heteros from being promiscuous, nor minimizing their roles in doing that either. To me, Promiscuity, in either, is not only dangerous, hurtful, but stupid!!..especially when there is families and/or children involved, in being hurt by it.... Can't you, agree with that????? Allow others to make their choice, for themselves....and not lock that up from them by what you read into a 'political decree'! Fair enough????........or does fairness interfere with your screwed up rigid, misinterpretation of a misconception of 'civil rights'?? Allow people to grow, mature, change their 'orientations', IF THEY WANT!!...and should they want to have their own children, of their own genes, with a woman they have grown to love...LET THEM DO IT!! It happens, has happened, and will continue to happen, whether you like it or not! ...and you describe yourself as a liberal????????????? Just for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1MHEJT6sjk GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Paco O'Barmy Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:09 PM You left wing hippy liberals can batter us all you like. In England, thanks to 12 years of Socialism you've actually managed to change our dictionary in your favour.... BUT you will NEVER convince me or mine that homosexuality is anything other than repugnant and deviant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 06 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM Keith. You are missing my point entirely. My point is that your maths is fundamentally flawed. In every fraction there are two numbers - the one on top and the one on the bottom. For the fraction/ratio/percentage to remain the same, the numbers above and below the line have to grow or shrink by the same factor. In this case the number above the line has grown by a a factor of more than one, while the number below the line has grown by a factor of much less than one. Consequently, the fraction has increased in size - the percentage has risen. for the overall percentage to decrease, the number below the line (number of heterosexuals) would have to increase by a larger factor than the number above the line. In other words, for the overall ratio of infected hetero's to all heteros to decrease, the population would have to grow by a higher factor than the number of infected heteros. You would have to have an increase of millions every year. Its elementary I'm afraid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,keith Date: 06 Feb 10 - 06:12 PM Yes Lox. And if it hadn't been for your intelligence, I would have gotten away with it. Why couldn't you leave it to Royston and Don T? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:19 PM ""You left wing hippy liberals can batter us all you like. In England, thanks to 12 years of Socialism you've actually managed to change our dictionary in your favour.... BUT you will NEVER convince me or mine that homosexuality is anything other than repugnant and deviant."" Thank the Lord that, in these more enlightened times, for every one who shares your bigotry, there are hundreds who find YOU infinitely more disgusting and repugnant than any homosexual. Do you know why it is difficult for women to find a kind, sensitive, man? Well, most of the kind, sensitive, men already have boyfriends. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:25 PM ""Yes Lox. And if it hadn't been for your intelligence, I would have gotten away with it. Why couldn't you leave it to Royston and Don T?"" ATTA BOY! That's the way to give credence to your argument. When you're proved wanting, just insult somebody. Royston and I may not have expressed it quite so well as Lox, but we have been making exactly the same point. Now you have shown that you cocked up the figures, you have a nerve talking about us. You now come over as rather stupid, as well as malicious. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM ""Yes Lox. And if it hadn't been for your intelligence, I would have gotten away with it." I don't believe the Mudcat member "Keith A of Hertford" posted the above. I don't believe he would have used the word "Gotten" And I don't believe he would have called me "intelligent". Any more than I believe he would have come far enough out of his shell to insult anyone either. I await Keith A's logged in response. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 06 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM Keith: The debate is not advanced one iota. Just empty point scoring. Was it worth it? Yes it was. Because you are still twisting and turning - took you three posts in two hours to even report accurately one of the figures from the avert site. And you are still trying to divide the numbers by two. Idiot. It was worth it, Keith, because it proves that you cannot be trusted. Not at all. Not even a little bit. It proves your agenda. It proves that you don't really care about the sacred truth of your statistics. In future, Keith, don't lie and bullshit people with your statistics. Try some points of principle; it's clear that you have some, don't be so ashamed of them. I told you a few posts back that the NATSAL survey was not a great one - only 11,000 people, but you bloody well introduced it while lying about what its conclusions were. But the results stand and as a comparison (2000 against 1990) it shows either that homosexual activity has increased enormously - which you will agree is rubbish - or that stigmatisation has reduced and more people are willing to come forward and be open. So that rather proves the likely benefit that reducing stigma has on health - if there's no social shame about being gay and people can be more open then they are more likely to access healthcare and advice for gay men, protect themeselves and get tested if needs be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 06 Feb 10 - 08:15 PM ". . . already have boyfriends." HAH!! Good one, Don T. #### GfS, I really have a hard time believing that anyone can be as abysmally thick as you seem to be! I don't really think you actually are that thick. I think you are just being disingenuous. And quite probably to yourself as well. Nowhere do I say that I object to a same-sex oriented person who feels he or she wants to be "cured" from giving it a try. But I do object to blatant charlatans like Richard Cohen. And YOU, I'm beginning to suspect. And in a percentage of marriages, whether same-sex or heterosexual, unfortunately, infidelity does occur. This, however, is not gender-specific! It is just a fact of life. And I do not believe that there are enough legally recognized same-sex marriages on the books yet to have any kind of meaningful statistics on the comparative rates of infidelity between same-sex and heterosexual marriages. Just because you want to think so doesn't make it true. As to my "political doctrines: you, sir, are the one who is into insisting that same-sex orientation is a psychological condition that needs to be cured and who, all along, has been foaming-at-the-mouth opposed to the idea same-sex orientation at all, let alone legalizing same-sex marriage. You have said repeatedly that, instead of being allowed to marry, they should be compelled to seek counseling. Yes, my "political agenda" says that people should be allowed to make their own choices and determine the courses of their own lives. THAT is what I have been arguing for in both of these threads. It is YOU who have been trying to shove your agenda down other people's throats. YOU are the "brain police," mister. And you have been through at least two threads that I know of now. Do you have the foggiest clue as to how downright limp and silly you are beginning to sound with your claim that "this is what I've been saying all along," and that I'm the one who wants to deny people the freedom to live their lives as they see fit? People can read, you know (even if you can't), and they're not as stupid as you seem to think. And it's all there—your words and my words—for them to verify for themselves. Don Firth P. S. Now, GfS, I can understand that since your father sired a batch of kids, including you, then "decided" he was gay and left your mother and you kids to go off with a male lover, that you would be very bitter about the whole thing. But—you've let your bitterness color your whole outlook on the matter of same-sex orientation—not to mention your abhorrence (and denial) of the strong probability that sexual orientation is not a matter of simple choice, but is dictated by genetics and/or hormonal factors. Get over it! Let people make their own choices, including the choice to follow what they consider to be their own nature. Even if the choices they make irritated some of your sore spots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:24 AM re my last guest post, I was not able to compose a reply then, but I wanted to concede straight away that Lox's criticism was correct. I added the little Scooby Doo attempted joke. sorry. A foolish mistake, but I am comforted that no one else spotted the flaw in my argument either. Not even arch statistical poseur Richard! Only Lox. The pool of heterosexuals is growing by an amount 200 times greater than the pool of infected heterosexuals, but it is false to infer that the proportion must fall. And it is not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Feb 10 - 09:35 AM "In future, Keith, don't lie and bullshit people with your statistics" I do not. I do make mistakes, but no lies or bullshit You posted this yesterday "It found 8.6% of male respondents reported having had sex with another man." Justify that please. Re dividing by 2, if that is wrong I am sorry, but those percentages are of men in the survey. How should you adjust that to give a percentage of the whole population who are MSMs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 07 Feb 10 - 11:26 AM Keith: "I do not. I do make mistakes, but no lies or bullshit" Bollocks, given how easy it was to google the NATSAL survey, you must have worked quite hard to find your low-grade, self-cancelling, wrongly-asserted claim of the size of the gay community - because you desperately wanted to find the lowest possible estimate, regardless of its rigour - and even then you misrepresented it to us. You can't be trusted. "You posted this yesterday "It found 8.6% of male respondents reported having had sex with another man." Justify that please." Follow the link to the avert website. 8.6% "Ever had a sexual experience, not necessarily including genital contact, with a partner of the same sex? "Re dividing by 2, if that is wrong I am sorry, but those percentages are of men in the survey. How should you adjust that to give a percentage of the whole population who are MSMs?" Straight people (men and women) have sex with each other, so you can measure the risk for any one straight man or woman against the entire population. As gay men tend to have sex only with other men, there is little point calculating their percentage of the whole population. You still fail to realise, the very fact that HIV is so statistically rare in the straight population is what makes the 500% increase in new diagnoses of UK-acquired infections so terrifying. The chances of any one straight person shagging another who is HIV+ should be pretty slim. That so many people manage it, can only be an indication of gravely risky behaviour and lethal ignorance. It is even more shocking when you consider that new homosexually acquired cases are growing at a fraction of the heterosexual rate when the odds of any one gay man meeting another who is HIV+, are so very much greater than for straight people. Lox has been far too patient with you, but I called you out on this point a couple of weeks ago. I am glad that you now realise that everything you have said here has been wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM Royston, the data on BOTH sites used the SAME NATSAL survey, so you should take back that criticism. It was 8.4% not 8.6%. the trivial kind of error that you were so scathing of me about. At least I corrected my mistake. And those 8.4% were not all "having sex" because there was often no genital contact. They were not all MSMs. The relevant figure was right below. 3.7% on the first survey and 6.3% on the survey you dismiss because it was a smaller sample. Lie, bullshit, or honest mistake? We have been discussing MSMs as an at risk group compared to non MSMs We need to know their percentage of the population, not just of the male population because that is what we do with heterosexuals. The 500% increase has taken the level to that of an extremely rare disease. The current level of growth means it will still be a rare disease in a hundred years time. That is why WHO is so sure that an epidemic is not going to happen. The disease is endemic in the MSM population. The fact that it is increasing suggests the risk is increasing. That was the conclusion of UNAIDS in that Pink News piece. If you are going to dismiss expert opinion, you should find an expert who takes your view or tell us why we should take your opinion above everyone who actually know something about this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 07 Feb 10 - 01:09 PM It's alright, Keith. Got your number. People know what you are now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 07 Feb 10 - 01:26 PM Keith:"Royston, the data on BOTH sites used the SAME NATSAL survey, so you should take back that criticism." No, Keith. That IS the criticism. You could have referenced accurately the NATSAL survey. It was the easiest one to find. But you worked away and found some shitty little site (Sigma) that published a silly number that suited your prejudices. Even so, you still had to misreport it to us. "It was 8.4% not 8.6%. the trivial kind of error that you were so scathing of me about. At least I corrected my mistake. Well done old chap. 8.4 / 8.6. A typing error representing 0.2%, that must make you really happy. I am calling you out for a liar and deliberate cheat. And I've justified those accusations amply. "And those 8.4% were not all "having sex" because there was often no genital contact. They were not all MSMs. Not content with your lies and distortions to date, you actually need to go further. We are talking about gay men and the attacks that are made on them by you and the other bigots for their "unhygienic" behaviour. Now Keith has tried every possible screwing of the figures to support the bigots and as a final resort he wants to remove from the numbers, those gay men practicing the ultimate safe sex - sex that doesn't involved genital contact. Look everybody - guys who kiss guys, guys who sleep together and derive intimate comfort from that, guys who just "cuddle". They're not gay in Hertford, apparently. You are an idiot. So, to prove your "point", you ask us to remove the majority of straight HIV+ people from their risk analysis, and exclude most gay men - particularly the ones practicing the safest forms of sexual contact, from their risk analysis. Well done, this is exactly what I mean about your mendacious, devious, bullshitting mentality. You are finished. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 07 Feb 10 - 01:45 PM General Royston....dont you know the war is over? As Keith says, the dambing statistics and conclusions from UNAID were printed in the "Pink News" website....a lesbian and "gay" website. You are arguing against the interests of the people you pretend to support. UNIADS and "Pink News" want some "new and effective" action taken to combat the continuing rise the homosexual hiv new infection rates....the highest by far in UK and US demographics. Just beat the retreat and do EVERYBODY a favour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 07 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM No Pasaran! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 07 Feb 10 - 01:58 PM Keith could have stopped at the points of principle that we agreed on last week. But he didn't. He just had to keep going with the lies rolled up as "statistics" with which to beat people with. We all agree on the numbers of gay men that have HIV, we all agree that more has to be done to reach out to all at risk people and make sure that they get whatever help, support and education they need to protect themselves and others. That is what I argued for from day one, it is what I continue to argue for. An essential part of that process is removing prejudice and stigma from HIV and from the people affected by it. So you, Ake, are a part of the problem. Keith is a part of the the problem for trying to support your prejudices. People like you two are the 2nd front on which this HIV fight must - unfortunately - be fought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Keith A Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:34 PM Royston, I had never heard of that survey. I just wanted to establish an acceptable number for how many MSMs there are. Lack of a figure caused disagreement, and you had not produced one, and still have not. The Sigma site is endorsed by the Terence Higgins Trust. Good enough for me. Avert is a highly reputable site that you have used. So what is your problem? Liar? Cheat? Attacking gay men? Where do you get this from? You come across as being emotionally out of control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 07 Feb 10 - 03:50 PM The policies you propose Royston are neither "new" nor "effective" Thet have not worked in the homosexual community for ten years and if left as they are, will continue not to work. How high must the homosexual infection figures go before you see that it is in the interests of homosexuals to take the sort of action that I have been suggesting? I believe that you know very well that a new and effective policy must be brought in, as male homosexuals appear unable or unwilling to ammend their promiscuous behaviour. The problem for you hypocrits is that admitting homosexual practice is unsafe and requires special risk treatment torpedos your "just another lifestyle" ideology. You will cry "no pasaran" till their last breath. So you basically don't give a fuck about homosexuals....let them die in their hundreds,leave them with low life expectancy, who cares if they compose the highest hiv infection demographic.....so long your cosy little "liberal" Disneyland is secure! Thats your stance in a nutshell |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Ebbie Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:04 PM Tell us again about your proposals, ake. If I remember correctly it involves segregation, indoctrination and possibly, injection? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM Ebbie, Please don't waste your fingertips. Ake is an unapologetic bigot. GfS is racing to join the rest of us in the 21st Century. Keith is a busted flush. Case closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM Ebbie...the old memory is letting you down again, just paddle up the thread a little and you can read my suggestions for youself. They are loosely based on the Cuban model. Royston agreed with them until the latest Unaids figures meant that he would have to bite the bullet!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:31 PM Ah Roston....is that the bugle sounding the retreat at last? Wise tactics General! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM Except to take you up on the "Cuban" cure, shit for brains. If you read (if you CAN read) the report on the Cuban model then you will know that caring isolation and treatment of infected people was done at the start of the epidemic. Isolation works at the start of epidemics. It was deployed at the start of H1N1 flu, amongst others. Once a disease is generally prevalent. Once it is "out there", isolation is pointless. The Cuban approach was praised for promoting voluntary testing amongst at-risk groups, active contact tracing and counseling and education of the newly diagnosed. In particular, the Cuban model was praised for campaigns to de-stigmatise HIV and those most affected by it - so that people would access the prevention resources and testing and treatment and counseling. In particular it was praised for campaigns to deal with and reduce homophobia. That is to say it was praised for dealing with and preventing people like you, Ake. That is what I have advocated at all times - that sort of caring and proven-to-work outreach and social activism. I have advocated dealing with people like you and the harm that you cause. Your ideas are loosely based on your fear and your ignorance and your prejudice. Your ideas are not loosely based on any system that cares for or helps people or that combats the spread of this disease. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM And now for the coup de grace to Keith's poison, and Ake's proposals. I am glad that Keith totally and unequivocally supports the UNAIDS / Pink News position on HIV prevention. I am very glad that Ake thinks Keith is so spot on. The position in full, from Pink News. The United Nations agency responsible for coordinating global efforts to combat HIV and AIDS has called for "enhanced action to promote and protect the human rights of men who have sex with men, transgender people, lesbians, gays and bisexuals." Last Thursday the UN General Assembly heard a statement on the universal human rights of LGBT people, and at the same time UNAIDS and the United Nations Development Programme issued their own joint statement: "The unanimous commitments of Member States to achieve universal access to HIV prevention, treatment, care and support by 2010 and Millennium Development Goal 6 – to halt and reverse the spread of HIV by 2015 – include commitments to further the realisation of human rights for all, including for all those vulnerable to HIV infection and to the impact of AIDS. "Such commitments confirm the fact that the realisation of human rights for all is not only right but also leads to the most effective response to HIV and generates broader health and development benefits. "However, many people at risk of HIV infection, including men who have sex with men, transgender people, lesbians, gays and bisexuals cannot protect themselves from such infection or live successfully if infected due to the discrimination, violence, marginalisation and other violations of human rights that they face. "Many governments either deny the existence of men who have sex with men, transgender people, lesbians, gays and bisexuals in their societies, and/or have not adequately invested in their health and human rights. "This has a pernicious impact in terms of hampering their access to HIV and health services and making them even more vulnerable to HIV. "For example, recent evidence shows that, in some regions, as few as 12% of men who have sex with men have access to HIV services. "Furthermore, where these groups are marginalised or criminalised, many fear to take up the HIV, health and other services that are available, because of the likelihood of facing discrimination, and in some places, violence or criminal prosecution. "Resources allocated to appropriate HIV programming for men who have sex with men, transgender people, lesbians, gays and bisexuals falls far short of what is required to realise Member States' commitments to achieve universal access to HIV prevention, treatment, care and support. "Urgent and enhanced action is required to scale up effective and rights-based responses for men who have sex with men, transgender people, lesbians, gays and bisexuals in the context of the HIV epidemic. "Like all people, men who have sex with men, transgender people, lesbians, gays and bisexuals enjoy all human rights, in particular the rights to be free from murder, torture, violence, arbitrary arrest, vilification, discrimination, and violations of privacy. "They also enjoy the right to the highest attainable standard of health. The realization of their human rights is essential for their dignity, their protection in a world with HIV, and for an effective response to the HIV epidemic. "There is no more time for 'business as usual.'" On Thursday 66 nations supported the statement at a session of the United Nations General Assembly in New York. It was read out by Argentina's Ambassador the UN. It does not create new rights and is not legally binding but instead builds on similar past initiatives. It affirms the principle of universality: that all human beings, irrespective of their sexual orientation or gender identity, are entitled to equal dignity and respect. No-one should be subject to violence, harassment, discrimination or abuse, solely because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. The UNAIDS/UNDP statement ended with a quote from Secretary General Ban Ki-moon's speech in August 2008: "In countries without laws to protect…. men who have sex with men, only a fraction of the population has access to prevention. "Conversely, in countries with legal protection and the protection of human rights for these people, many more have access to services. "As a result, there are fewer infections, less demand for antiretroviral treatment and fewer deaths. Not only is it unethical not to protect these groups; it makes no sense from a health perspective. "It hurts all of us." According to calculations by the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Intersex Association and other organisations, more than six dozen countries still have laws against consensual sex between adults of the same sex. The UN Human Rights Committee, which interprets the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), a core UN treaty, held in a historic 1994 decision that such laws are rights violations – and that human rights law forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation. Case very, very closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Feb 10 - 04:55 PM When I read GfS's stuff (except for his recent tendency to run toward the horizon with his ass on fire), I can't help but think that he's recommending that gays be locked in mental institutions. When I read Ake's stuff, what pops to mind are concentration camps and leper colonies. Let the personal abuse begin!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 07 Feb 10 - 05:18 PM Ake, You are soooo last month. But we already knew that you are a dated, bitter reactionary. What a sad pathetic shambolic ignoramus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Feb 10 - 05:36 PM Coup de Grace to Keith's poison..... But I have never expressed an opinion about any of that Royston. What is the connection? All I have said, and am saying, is that there is no heterosexual AIDS epidemic here, and no evidence of one starting. Expert opinion entirely agrees that point, unless you have found something new. Have you? Also, that AIDS is about 90 times more prevalent in the MSM community than the non MSM community. Also, that there is growing evidence that MSM infection may be rising again to even higher levels. Again, that is not my opinion but that of experts. You have not provided any evidence to the contrary. I came in to this part of the debate because you came on denying all these truths and dragging my name in the dirt from your first post. A little humility Royston? Take back those things? I will not hold my breath. |
