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BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Jan 10 - 07:48 PM And, given its accuracy, that last post makes more sense than anything posted by our two resident homophobes. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 10 - 08:09 PM Who ever said I was waiting for a response from one of the liberals? I had a few questions in to GfS, but we have so far managed to treat each other quite civilly. But I don't have any questions pending with any of the gobbledy-gooking Liberals. When they're not overcome with frustration and posting out of their frustration (so to speak) I find them to be quite understandable, and very often find myself agreeing with them. Of course it could be that I'm just as muddled in the head as you think they are in print (print of the pixel variety). I've been accused of worse by better. But that's not something I can do much about, innit? O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 10 - 08:25 PM GG, The law was mooted in the Ugandan legislature after a team of American evangelists came to Uganda to denounce homosexuality (and teach people how to recruit-proof their children against homosexuality, and about "curing" homosexuals, and how they are trying to destroy African families, etc etc) at some sort of a conference. This fed into the long-standing hatred already there on the ground, and led to the law being proposed. When they found out about the law, the evangelical speakers sought to distance themselves from the damage their hate speech engendered. So the short answer is that there are no American evangelicals who support this proposed law. But the long version is far more complicated. The bigots in question are Scott Lively, Caleb Lee Brundidge, and Don Schmierer. Here is an article about the whole thing. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mousethief Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:42 PM Sorry, that's a response to a post on the first page -- didn't realize where I was. Please ignore. Obviously I'm as muddled as they say. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:49 AM I'm very sorry that I've been away, so long...been in the studio, or raising help for the earthquake victims. I'm posting this, which is in NO WAY a value judgment, on homosexuality, but because of lack of time(I actually wrote an extensive post, but I accidentally erased it while closing a tab). These are some figures, you can discuss it anyway you want, I will be back! Some favor either side of the discussion. As to this article, though it is thought provoking, it is rather neutrally void of personal bias, but does deal with some areas, brought up in this thread, including the 'traditional Christian' view vs. the scientific. Sorry, time does not permit me to be on more. Regards To All, GfS Does Science Show Homosexuality is Healthy? The view that homosexuality is not a mental illness but is a healthy lifestyle is often given as the basis for changing the traditional Christian stance on homosexuality. But does science really show that homosexuality is healthy? This article will consider the findings of science. There is no absolute standard for judging what is normal or abnormal. But there are some common empirical criteria that are commonly used to decide whether a behavior is healthy: * Emotional health * Psychological health * Physical health Emotional Health A major study by Bell and Weinberg revealed that 78% of male homo- sexual "affairs" (relationships entered into with an intent of commitment) lasted less than three years. Only 12% lasted five years or longer. Study by Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Weinberg, "Homo-sexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women", (New York, Simon and Shuster, 1978) p.314 Certainly, this shows a pattern of broken relationships that must be painful for many. 73% of the psychiatrists in the American Psychiatric Association who responded to a survey by Harold I. Lief said that they thought that homosexual men are less happy than others. 70% percent said they believed that the homosexuals' problems were due more to personal conflicts than to social stigmatization. Study by Harold I. Lief, Sexual Survey Number 4: Current Thinking on Homosexuality, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality 2 (1977), pp.110- 111 (Cited in Growing Up Straight by George A. Reker). David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison conducted a non-random study of 156 stable committed male homosexual couples. They found that none of the over 100 couple that had been together for more than 5 years had been sexually monogamous or exclusive. The authors, themselves a gay couple, argued that for male couples, sexual monogamy is a passing stage of homophobia and that many homosexuals separate emotional fidelity and sexual exclusivity. What matters for male couples is emotional not physical faithfulness.D McWhirter and A Mattison, "The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop", (Englewood Cliffs, Prentice-Hall). Many studies have shown that children of homosexual households are 2 to 4 times as likely to become homosexual themselves as compared to the general population. Timothy J. Daily, "Family Research Council: Insight: Homosexual Parenting: Placing Children at Risk". See www.frc.org/get/is01j3.cfm. Psychological Health In a national health care survey 75% of the nearly 2000 lesbian respondents reported they had pursued psychological counseling of some kind, many for treatment of long-term depression or sadness. J. Bradford et al., "National Lesbian Health Care Survey: Implications for Mental Health Care," Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 62 (1994): 239, cited in Health Implications Associated with Homosexuality, p. 81. Homosexual men are 6 times more likely to have attempted suicide than are heterosexual men. Study by Bell and Weinberg, "Homo-sexualities…", Table 21.12 Studies indicate that between 25 and 33% of homosexual men and women are alcoholics. Study by Robert J. Kus, "Alcoholics Anonymous and Gay American Men", Journal of Homosexuality, Volume 14, No.2 (1987), p.254 Bell and Weinberg reported evidence of widespread sexual compulsion among homosexual men. 83% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated they had had sex with 50 or more partners in their lifetime, 43% estimated they had sex with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners.Bell and Weinberg p 308 The same study revealed that homosexual men have to a great extent separated sexuality from relationship. The survey showed 79% of the respondents saying that over half of their sexual partners were strangers. Seventy percent said that over half of their sexual partners were people with whom they had sex only once. Bell and Weinberg pp.308-309. It should be noted that this survey was drawn from the San Francisco area at the height of the celebration by that gay community of its freedom from the restraints of "puritanical, middle-class values" and before the AIDS epidemic struck. In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al. found that "the modal range for number of sexual partners ever [of homosexuals] was 101–500." In addition, 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent had between 501 and 1000 partners. A further 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent reported having had more than 1000 lifetime sexual partners. Paul Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354. A survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found that 24 percent of the respondents said they had had more than 100 sexual partners in their lifetime. The magazine noted that several respondents suggested including a category of those who had more than 1,000 sexual partners. "Sex Survey Results," Genre (October 1996), quoted in "Survey Finds 40 percent of Gay Men Have Had More Than 40 Sex Partners," Lambda Report, January 1998, p. 20. Surely these are indications of either deep dissatisfaction, or else terribly destructive hedonism. Physical Health 90% of lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one of more acts of verbal aggression from their partners during the year prior to the study, and 31% reported experiencing physical abuse (Lettie L. Lockhart et al., "Letting out the Secret: Violence in Lesbian Relationships," Journal of Interpersonal Violence 9 (1994): 469–492. ) and in another reference we see that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population." Gwat Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrier, "Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships: Discussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications," Journal of Social Service Research 15 (1991): 41–59. The Medical Institute for Sexual Health further reported: "It should be noted that most studies of family violence do not differentiate between married and unmarried partner status. Studies that do make these distinctions have found that marriage relationships tend to have the least intimate partner violence when compared to cohabiting or dating relationships." Health Implications Associated With Homosexuality (Austin: The Medical Institute for Sexual Health, 1999), p. 79. Lesbians are 3 times more likely to abuse alcohol and to suffer from other compulsive behaviors. Joanne Hall, "Lesbians Recovering from Alcoholic Problems: An Ethnographic Study of Health Care Expectations," Nursing Research 43 (1994): 238–244 A study of homosexual twins found that they are more likely to have attempted suicide than there heterosexual twin. R. Herrell et al., "A Co-twin Study in Adult Men," Archives of General Psychiatry 56 (1999): 867–874 The life expectancy for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for men in general. Robert S. Hogg et al., "Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men," International Journal of Epidemiology 26 (1997): 657. "A disproportionate percentage — 29 percent — of the adult children of homosexual parents had been specifically subjected to sexual molestation by that homosexual parent, compared to only 0.6 percent of adult children of heterosexual parents having reported sexual relations with their parent. … Having a homosexual parent(s) appears to increase the risk of incest with a parent by a factor of about 50." P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," Adolescence 31 (1996): 772 Conclusions Scientific studies show there is a correlation between homosexuality and personal distress. There is clear evidence that many live unhealthy lifestyles. But not all homosexuals are distressed. Not all homosexuals experience personal distress nor can it be concluded that such distress is an inevitable part of the homosexual experience even if it is very common. Further there is effort to muddy the waters by hiding this kind of data. The mental health community, rather than reflecting the majority view, seems to have committed itself to revising the predominant public response, to normalizing behavior that is rejected by the public. It is comforting to share a common understanding with most of the people in society about what is good and bad behavior, healthy and unhealthy patterns of living. However, we are heading into a time where more and more people disagree on what is a healthy person. An increasing number of the people and institutions around us have very different understandings about good & bad behavior and healthy & unhealthy living. We must also recognize that right and wrong are not always the same as healthy and unhealthy. Psychological abnormality and immorality are two different things although they sometimes overlap. Sometimes they are not related at all. Many conditions that are sins are not pathologies (idolatry, pride, sorcery, lust, fornication). Many conditions that are pathologies are not in themselves sins (anxiety, depression, psychosis). Christians must recognize that neither society's consensus or judgment of whether a behavior is healthy has to match God's view or the church's moral judgment. New Testament Christians were clearly out of step with their society's understanding of what made a good character, a good person and a good life. Morality is not usually decided by democratic vote. By contemporary standards, a life consumed with greed, materialism, sensualism, selfishness, divorce and pride is judged healthy but God evaluates such a life and finds it lacking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:06 AM GfS -- a sensible article indeed, on the whole — esp in its emphasis that NOT ALL.... But (& I hate to be a bore) I still await your promised response to my challenges to what I perceive as your over-prescriptiveness & failure to allow for differences in tastes and choices in lifestyles — your tendency to regard your way as the Best, even the ONLY Acceptable. It seems to be generally accepted around here that my questions are good ones, and that my assertion "There is more than one path" requires more response from you than it has so far received. So - 3rd or 4th time of asking - how about that then? Not deliberately avoiding the point, surely, are we? Regards - Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mousethief Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:13 AM Don't have time to do all of this but I'll start with this: A major study by Bell and Weinberg revealed that 78% of male homo- sexual "affairs" (relationships entered into with an intent of commitment) lasted less than three years. The study was done in 1970, long before the AIDS crisis and the resulting shift in attitudes about long-term relations in the gay community in the United States. It was a self-selected study done just in San Francisco, advertised mostly in public places such as gay baths. The book by Bell and Weinberg says of itself: It should be pointed out that reaching any consensus about the exact number of homosexual men or women exhibiting this or that characteristic is not an aim of the present study. The nonrepresentative nature of other investigators' samples as well as of our own precludes any generalization about the incidence of a particular phenomenon even to persons living in the locale where the interviews were conducted, much less homosexuals in general. In other words the numbers can't be relied upon to say anything about gays either in that part of SF, or as a whole. The study was never meant to do that. So much for that number. Maybe somebody else would enjoy tackling the next? O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:54 AM Okay, let's cut to the chase here. The article just posted by GfS comes fromt the Exodus Global Alliance web site. Clicking on the link that says "About Us," I find the following: Exodus Global Alliance is a world-wide Christian organization helping people affected by homosexuality and promoting the message that "Change from homosexuality is possible through the power of Jesus Christ."Not all Christians agree with this stance toward homosexuality. That, I believe, is sufficient for now. More laer. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:56 AM ". . . later. . . ." Don Firth (it's past my bedtime) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:37 AM I read 'later' the first time. Must say something about the power of gestalt, if nowt about homosexuality! LoL '''''' 0 0 { v } Michael ~~~ §§§§§ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:38 AM Interesting article Sanity, its amusing to see the homos using the old hetero "cheating husband" routine to rationalise their promiscuity figures. "Oh it didn't mean anything, it was only physical" It bears out what I was saying about the vast majority of homos having thrown away the rule book regarding sexual behaviour, which in turn may account for the very high levels of promiscuity and hiv/aids associated with homosexual preactice. Mousethief says correctly that this was an old study, but homosexual promiscuity/hiv figures have continued to worsen since then till the present. The really telling figures are the life expectancy statistics, if the homosexual figures applied to the sexual behaviour of any other sector of society, an immediate public inquiry would be called for and a medical review would follow to establish the cause of the disparity, David Kaufman rails against "liberal silence" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:52 AM I always doubt any paper where phrases like "X% of the Y surveyed report.... A, B or C" where there is no mention of whether that % or the people being interviewed are fully representaive or a good cross section of society. For intance... "90% of lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one of more acts of verbal aggression from their partners during the year prior to the study". But if those interviewd were from a hostel to help abused women no wonder you get a figure like that. I suspect 90% of straight people suffer some verbal aggression as they go through a year, though not necessarily their partners. Some figures are meaningless in some studies because of this oversight. "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics" comes to mind in some instances. I would also be very skeptical about some of the research cited simply because they are so dated and things have changed massively since the 80's and 90's. Just an opinion again mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Ebbie Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:11 PM ake, one question: Why do you care? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:14 PM This silence is what many here would like to see continue, tho' it adds to the deaths and is certainly not in the interests of homosexuals. The only group served by silence on this issue are the politically motivated "liberals" who see homosexuality as a "cause celebre" Once again, the fight for "rights" seems more important to these pseuds than a fight for a decent lifespan. We all know who they are....if you are in any doubt, just read this thread, or one of the others pertaining to homosexuality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:22 PM Ebbie....is there really anyone who doesn't care? If one "doesn't care" about what is happening among the homosexual then they are indeed without heart. If the homosexual health figures were transferred to heterosexuals, we would be in the middle of a catastophic epidemic...would you care then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Amos Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:28 PM I suggest the liberals are not at all being silent, Ake. THey are standing up for equal civil rights, which is the central issue here. ALl your arguments in favor of discrimination on account of this rationalization or that justification do not add up to a sensible answer to the question of whether civil rights should be equitable, or discriminatory. There are OTHER issues connected with homosexuality which have been frequently thrown into this thread and the earlier one on Prop 8. None of them change the core equation--equal protection under the law, equal rights under the law, is the only basis for a sane democracy. If those rights are correctly established and defended then the rest of the questions can be confronted in their proper domains, such as the medical domain, or even the criminal domain in some details. As for the traditional status of the institution of marriage, let me remind you that according to similar traditions, fifty years ago it would have been illegal for a person of Obama's hue to marry a white lady despite consent and intent on the part of both. This is exactly the pattern of prejudice you are defending, asserting that a certain class is pre-judged to be not amenable to social function, without any evidence of individual offense or failure. THis is prejudgement in its most classic form. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mousethief Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:34 PM The Liberals are also the ones working with local public health departments to promote safe sex education, early screening, needle exchanges, disribution of free condoms -- and whatever else they can think of to protect people's health. Very often it is the conservative Christians who fight against those efforts as well. Actually it isn't anybody else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM My questions to you akenaton remain unanswered so I have given up on getting any answers. I have waited patiently over a week. I have no idea of what a psued is so I looked it up. False, artificial or pretentious person. I guess this can be added to all the other insults and words that have been hurled in the direction of people who hold the views I do. I will not be drawn into 'returning fire' and, as I see the thread now heading for a re-run of all what has already been said, the only difference being that the insults will becaome more frequent and harder, I'll be really taking a back seat. You will have it your way in the end and that is your entitlement. Just one thing... "If the homosexual health figures were transferred to heterosexuals, we would be in the middle of a catastophic epidemic" ... we are. STI figure's in the UK are on the increase monthly, HIV among them, and the biggest growth is being shown in the straight populous. What actual solution do you propose to this, across the whole sexuality population? I say the whole sexual population because it affects the whole sexual population. There is a crisis in sexual health... stop making out it is only a gay problem with gay folk being affected. People from all sexualities are dying of AIDS, still being infected and living with HIV, and the whole gamut of other STI's are on the rise. What should we do? No stats. No insults. No quotes. What is YOUR solution? mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:56 PM The tradition of Marriage ... Until 1991, the tradition of marriage was defined in Law as a husband having ownership of his wife. Consequently, there was no such thing as Marital Rape in common law until that date. Bloody liberal judges interfering with tradition ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Ebbie Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:27 PM My point, ake, is that I suspect that your own knowledge of homosexuality and homosexuals is a cerebral one. In your isolated part of the world you may never have known an 'out' homosexual. May I suggest that if you know some you would discover that they are just like you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM Ake - Can I also, please, draw to your attention as well as GfS's [from whom I still await a reply] to my post of 14 jan 03.56AM, regarding the respectable, loving, Civil-Partnered couples of my acquaintance whom I know to be as happy, faithful, secure, stable, as any heterosexual married couple I have ever known — including me and my beloved lost Valerie. They defy all the statistics you adduce, and the principles and precepts you appear to urge. Such couples are many, typical of a huge part of homosexual society [insofar as such a category can be isolated]. Where, please, do they fit into your reckoning? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:59 PM Ebbie.....there are three homosexual couples in my area.....I work for them from time to time. One is a lesbian partnership who appear very much like two old sisters very relaxed and behave very normally. There are two male partnerships who do not mix with the locals, but have their own circle of friends who come to stay with them quite often. On their own, they appear "bitchy" and rather neurotic...like a man and wife who have grown apart and been consumed by bitterness. They do not appear happy. The only other homosexual I knew lived in a fake marriage and abused his male foster children sexually.....These children were my playmates when I myself was a child and into my mid teens. I dont know what inferrences you want to draw from these details, but they are true, although of little value to this thread, I think.....other than to prove that I do know what I'm talking about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:40 PM Today being Martin Luther King Day in the United States, radio news features have presented a number of the speeches of Dr. King. In one radio address he made, he quoted Victor Hugo. The quote was from Les Miserables If the soul is left in darkness sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.In his/her most recent post, GfS reiterates the contention that gender orientation is a matter of choice and that same-sex orientation can be "cured" with appropriate therapy. S/he has been told repeated, complete with verifiable documention, that this has long since been proven to be, not just ineffective, but psychologically detrimental to the recipients of such "therapy." The results of such attempts to "cure" homosexuality are generally a high rate (in the neighborhood of 70%) of recidivism, with the next highest percentage being complete withdrawal from any kind of sexual activity—abstinence. And that there is a very high rate of the subjects becoming clinically depressed, with about 6% of them committing suicide. Not what one would generally consider good results. But both celibacy and suicide certainly have the effect of reducing homosexual activity! And Ake keeps repeating the same frequently debunked statistics and expressing his heartfelt concern for the health of homosexual men, while, at the same time, ignoring the fact that HIV is only one of many diseases which can be transmitted by (but not only by) promiscuous and unprotected sexual activity (both homosexual AND heterosexual). And then, he wants to deny same-sex oriented people the choice of antidote for promiscuity, the promise of stable, single partner relationships. He keeps claiming that gays don't want such stable, monogamous relationships, preferring promiscuity, while gays themselves have amply demonstrated otherwise (the high level of same-sex marriage in California after the law was passed, but before it was rescinded by Proposition 8). Ake wants to deny them the option because he believes they might not want to take advantage of it. What's wrong with letting them make the choice? Both GfS and Ake keep spouting the kind of misinformation that homophobes and bigots in general—and the fundamentalist Christian anti-gay groups in particular—are promulgating: the very same ideas that the Ugandan lawmakers are using as the basis for their effort to pass laws declaring homosexuality to be a crime punishable by death. You know, I can see those laws being used like the Inquisition was sometimes used some centuries ago: you dislike someone, or for some reason you want them out of the way, so you denounce them to the Inquistition as a heretic. Or, in more recent times, denouncing someone who is in your way to HUAC as a communist. The Ugandan anti-homosexual laws could be used the same way. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.Take a good look in the mirror, you two! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM Mouse and Amos....you are being disingenuous. You know very well, that should any public body propose a medical inquiry into the link between homosexuality and aids, or even propose that homosexuals be treated as a special case to facilitate funding for such an inquiry, the full weight of "liberal" rights legislation would be brought down on their heads. They would be charged with persecution of a minority, practicing bigotry and interfering with the rights of homosexuals to die 5 to 20 years before anyone else(a bit of irony there Amos...just for you), but you get my meaning? By maintaining the silence "liberals" are not acting in the interests of homosexuals, but are preserving the status quo; and that status quo is very valuable to "liberals" in a political sense, in that they can appear to be protecting a minority, while in fact helping to exterminate it. The figures state conclusively that homosexual men in the US are at least 50 times more likely to aquire hiv/aids than any other demographic........why does no one seem to care? why no enquiry? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM I don't think Ake has a clue as to what "liberal" means. But it must be a great comfort to him to be able to blame everything he disagrees with on some ghostly bogeyman. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM "liberal" does not mean liberal! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:29 PM Ake, there really isn't a lot of point arguing with you as you are just so thick, but I would hate for anyone to read your drivel and get the wrong impression about the world. If you go to your local GP / GUM Clinic / Gay Venue, you will find that an enormous amount of effort and resources are aimed at getting the safe sex message and condoms and what not to gay men. Inquiries held, lessons learned, resources and outreach deployed. So your point is what? People - gay or straight - get HIV by unprotected penetrative sex. Is that clear enough for you? Why do people not practice safe sex? I have no idea. But it certainly isn't a "gay thing" according to any figures - Africa or UK. All your crap about 50% more likely is just crap. The statistic may be true, but what is your point? What are we supposed to infer from that? I explained to you why that is just a bad luck roll of the dice for gay men in "The West" - it isn't complex; if you have a disease that appears in a minority closed group of people practising the main transmission vector, that is where the disease will stay and infection rates will be high. Luck of the draw. So in the UK, HIV has historically been concentrated in the gay community where it first appeared. The data shows that straight people are reversing that trend. In Africa, where HIV emerged in the straight population; guess what? It's a straight 'plague' as you see it. As Lox said, that gay men are 50 times more likely to acquire HIV than is Margaret Thatcher, is a meaningless statistic. that 96% of gay men are HIV negative is more informative (but you don't like that one) GfS, you're even more absurd than I thought. Having exhausted your own spleen, you're now off to the religious nutters for a load of selective data from the 1970's (mainly it would seem). All the 'findings' are quoted out of context to serve a right wing agenda. All the 'research' appears to be of self selected groups - people accessing healthcare (mental and physical) services or social care services. That is to say that none of those studies are of the gay population in general and to quote them so selectively is akin to lying. You should be ashamed of yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:32 PM "a medical inquiry into the link between homosexuality and aids" Lets examine this stroke of genius. - Does Ake mean testing all homosexuals to discover what percentage actually suffers from HIV/AIDS? if that is true and Akes motive is concern for AIDS sufferers, then why should we care about homosexuals more than other groups? we should, by his standards, have another research project to study the link between HIV/AIDS and women, as 50% of HIV/AIDS sufferers worldwide are women. OOOPS .... Hang on - 50% of AIDS sufferers worldwide are women ... so it OBVIOUSLY isn't either exclusively or predominantly a gay problem and further research will only confirm that. It would be a waste of money. But Wait ... - Ake might mean a scientific study to establish once and for all whether HIV/AIDS is somehow caused or originated by homosexuals. For twenty years, scientists working for government research projects and private pharmaceutical companies have been working round the clock to learn about and try to understand what HIV/AIDS is, where it comes form and how to beat it. Now that I have read Ake's post, I too want to know, why haven't those stupid scientists, with their millions of pounds/dollars of research money, taken the time to test the link between AIDS and homosexuality. I think we should turn the research project over to Ake, as he clearly possesses a much deeper knowledge of scientific method and would stand a much better chance of finding out something useful. You nob! P.S. - how odd that two male gay couples should be anything less than open friendly and free with Ake, considering his selfless caring approach to male homosexuality. I bet when Ake sees them he walks up with a hearty Grin and says "Hi I'd like to be your friend" to which they slink, curse and spit like Smeagol and Deagol from the Lord of the Rings. Then again, maybe the truth is that Ake stares at them from a distance like a kid looking at a traffic accident, doing his best to radiate heterosexual manliness to deter any ideas they might have of bumming him, and they see him and think "steer clear of the homophobic fuckwit". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Amos Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:55 PM I think, Ake , you should be more specific about what it is you believe I am staying hushed up about. What vector of AIDS transmission do you think is being overlooked, exactly? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:32 PM Far be it from me to try to answer for Ake, but in at least two threads now he has been trying to peddle the idea that the AIDs virus is caused by homosexual activity. In short, spontaneously generated where it did not exist before! This notion got under way in ancient Greece. The idea was that piles of garbage and refuse created such vermin as rats, mice, flies, and other scavangers—not that the garbage attracted the vermin, but that the it created them spontaneously. This belief prevailed among some (but not all) through medieval times and continued until surprisingly recently—including such nonsense as "recipes" for producing mice, for example. All along, there were those who questioned the idea of life being spontaneously generated by inanimate matter, but it was finally laid to rest once and for all in the mid-1850s by Louis Pasteur. I have mentioned this several times in these threads, but our statistics-cobbling Ake refuses to acknowledge it and grips his collection of medieval beliefs all the harder. While, at the same time, telling me—and others who consistently yank the rug out from under his make-believe world—that we are too ignorant and stupid for him to waste his precious time bothering to answer, and generally ending his rant by calling us something like "liberal fascists." Whatever the hell that is! Easy dodge. But glowingly transparent. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Amos Date: 18 Jan 10 - 08:35 PM My somewhat windy post earlier about comp[lex systems is better said thus, from the Sod and Murphy thread: 19. Simple solutions only fit simple problems and appeal to those who do not understand the problem anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Smedley Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:19 AM Hang on, folks, I think it's only fair to respect Ake's honesty and perspicacity. He has, on his own admission, met SEVEN homosexual people. Yes, a whole SEVEN. Given this boundless depth of experience, he is entirely entitled to generalise about millions of other homos. I mean, if I'd met as many as SEVEN heterosexuals, I'd be in a position to lump all of them together and pronounce upon the meaning of their lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 19 Jan 10 - 11:05 AM Seems Smedley, that you have picked up some bad habits from your Mudcat mates. The inability to read what is posted, is common among the "liberals" on this forum. They are usually too keen to get their "stiletto's" back between their debating partners ribs, to be bothered digesting what is actually written. I was asked by Ebbie if I actually KNEW any homosexuals. The people I mentioned live locally and I know/knew them reasonably well. Of course, During my life, I have MET quite a large number of homosexuals, but as I know nothing about them or their relationships, they would not be pertinent to Ebbie's question. Smedley...a little tip, just forget the sarcasm and try to concentrate, it will save you much future embarrassment......Seemples!! :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 19 Jan 10 - 11:19 AM Royston writes, "Ake, there really isn't a lot of point arguing with you as you are just so thick, but I would hate for anyone to read your drivel and get the wrong impression about the world." "All your crap about 50% more likely is just crap. The statistic may be true, but what is your point?" Quite correct Royston that statistic is crap,what I actually said was "The figures state conclusively that homosexual men in the US are at least 50 times more likely to aquire hiv/aids than any other demographic........why does no one seem to care? why no enquiry?" And my point is........What the fuck "right", has a numbskull without even a rudimentary grasp of simple arithmetic got, to call me "thick"! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:44 PM 50% or 50 times, Ake. If the only reason you have, to avoid the issue, is a typo then I will regard the issue as won. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:48 PM Ake thinks 95% is a minority. He thinks a disease suffered 50% by women is a gay mans disease. Then he calls Royston "a numbskull without even a rudimentary grasp of simple arithmetic" DUH! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM Royston...please stop digging, I get no pleasure from watching someone making a complete arse of themselves. Lox on the other hand is so far into the shit, that he has disappeared from the "radar".....silent and invisible. :0( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Lox Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM "Lox on the other hand is so far into the shit, ..." More fascination with things anal from the vivid and disturbed imagination of our resident window-licker. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:43 PM I notice you didn't answer the questions, Ake -- Can't, or Won't? If Won't, why are you here? O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Royston Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:44 PM Ake said: "Royston...please stop digging, I get no pleasure from watching someone making a complete arse of themselves." I rest my case. Nothing to add. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:17 PM ""Mousethief says correctly that this was an old study, but homosexual promiscuity/hiv figures have continued to worsen since then till the present."" Then you will undoubtedly be able to point us toward the documented proof of that claim. NO? I thought not. Another Ake confection of innuendo and guesswork. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: mousethief Date: 19 Jan 10 - 09:30 PM See, the problem is, this is an area that I actually know something about. I worked for the Seattle-King County Department of Public Health in the HIV/AIDS Epidemiology division for 5 years. Homosexual promiscuity did NOT go up after the mid-80s, but went dramatically down. Of course AIDS prevalence went up after 1970 because in 1970 AIDS/HIV hadn't been discovered yet. So your statement as relayed by Don(Wwizetc)T consists of one falsehood and one tautology. Have you even read And the Band Played On? I can disprove any of your absurd claims just by a simple Google search. Throwing a lot of them together makes it virtually impossible to look them all up (some of us have real lives), but one only has to sample the beer from a few points around the keg to know it's all bad. O..O =o= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jan 10 - 04:45 AM Royston, after a quarter of a century, there has surely been ample time for HIV to cross over to the straight community. What is your evidence? This from BMJ, 2005. "Although the number of people becoming infected with HIV through heterosexual intercourse in the United Kingdom is rising steadily, most of the overall rise in HIV diagnoses among heterosexuals is among people who originate from and were infected abroad, mainly in Africa.1 " http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/330/7503/1303 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jan 10 - 04:52 AM And, "Heterosexual spread of HIV in the general population cannot be observed when reliable data exist as in the case of Germany. The prevention campaigns have therefore been a waste of money and energy. Furthermore they did not lead to a substantial increase of condom use, but had a negative impact on the credibility of the institutions involved. (The danger, HIV concerns everybody, and the predictions were wrong.) http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/cfepidem.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:31 AM FWIW, in Ireland over 60% of new HIV infections is among heterosexuals, women accounting for over 50% of new cases and the young agegroups taking the brunt of the rise, due to risk behaviour. See the Central Statistics office of Ireland or HIVinsite statistics for Ireland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:50 AM Time to get searching Mt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: akenaton Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:31 AM Perhaps this might throw a little light on the problem (from Peters source) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:42 AM You're being typically selective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:38 AM And I mean that in the sense you're ignoring the fact that (in the words of the Central Statistics Office) homosexuals are no longer the largest contributors to new cases of HIV infection in Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality? From: GUEST,Lox Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM Ake, I read the link you selectively took from peters source, and found this. "But in countries where MSM face widespread discrimination and where there is a high degree of stigma attached to male to male sex, there is understandable reluctance on the part of MSM to give the true reason." In other words, according to YOUR link, discrimination against homosexual men serves as an OBSTACLE to those who care about HIV/AIDS. Your argument has been that homosexual men suffer because "liberals" will not take the brave step of limiting homosexuals civil and human rights. So the link you provide explicitly opposes your opinion. DUH!! |
