BS: Triage, or 'where am I'

Subject: what wysiwyg said
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:05 PM

Did you know there isn't/wasn't a "where am I" thread on here before? Maybe that's because I'm the only one asking....and the rest of you know where you are.

Credit where credit is due: Wysiwyg spoke of "triage" on another thread which is what inspired me to use it here. She was speaking of the community experience, the word "ministry" was used too I recall. And the part of her post that woke me up, was when she spoke of people to whom she had given verbal advice, who "aren't read to listen." She went on to speak of how, years later, people who had consulted with her and who had not responded to her counsel at the time, would contact her again and say, okay, after all this time, NOW I hear you."

So, enough about Wysiwyg. What about me?

I am still smarting from the hostilities that resulted in the recent policy change at the Mudcat Café. And I wasn't even a direct target of those hostilities. I had to stop and ask myself why it smarts if it wasn't directed at me.

What smarts is, of course, old scar tissue, from long before encountering the community of Mudcatters. Old memories still hurt enough to change the way I draw breath. I have many memories growing up in a household in which almost everyone raised their voices, and nobody listened. This was a routine thing, happening several times a day. In fact, on some day when the vocalizing failed to happen, it was not a relief, but a warning signal that something much more dangerous might be happening.

Interestingly enough, the subjects about which voices were raised were not the subjects that have been getting forum threads closed of late. The vocalizers in my past, were not carrying on about religion or science, or debate versus verbal abuse, for example.

Oh, and in the interest of honesty, from childhood I was schooled when to raise my voice and when to shut up, which is to say that I too contributed to the vocalizing in my day. It is a fact that I did some yelling and hollering myself, and called people names, and so on. The others who were present will vouch for that, I would be lying if I said otherwise.

Examining the problem here and now, I observe two things about what I experienced as a routine occurrence. One, is that mentally speaking, the people who raised their voices were already decided. Nobody actually changed their minds at the end of the day. There was much verbal pressure to admit, you know, that my way is the right way, and if you don't think my way, you're wrong. But in fact the vocalizing decided nothing and changed nothing, and everybody ended up repeating what they had yelled and hollered on previous occasions, too many times to count.

The other thing, is all that emotion. A verbal or mental spark would ignite volatile emotion, and: ignition! Off we go! The words might not be all that emotional, even the topic might not be all that emotional, but there was definitely emotion fuelling the engine of the verbal carryings-on. And no words on anyone's part were of avail to check the emotion.

I'm going to pause here because it's really embarrassing to open up about this, and I have little alarms going off in my mind about it. Wysiwyg spoke of ministry, well, I am nothing like a minister nor am I in the helping profession. I ask for help more than I give it. Maybe somebody else here understands how I feel. I could go on but this post is long enough. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:45 PM

Well I'll put my cards on the table and say that, however Max might see it as a defeat, the policy change is a thoroughly good one. It is of course, early days, but we currently have a thread about religion (the Easter one) that is just as impassioned as previous threads but which survives very well because we have been spared trollish interventions by anonymous cowards. Not to say that it will last, of course. ;-)

As for people not changing their minds, don't rush to judgement. I learn a lot from debating on forums, though the manly stubbornness in me might not always let me show it. I'm a bit slow-witted when I debate face to face, often wishing hours afterwards that I'd said something I hadn't thought of at the time. On here I can have a good think before I post and keep my cool (I see others failing to be as measured, and sometimes feel sorry for them). Personally, I haven't decided about anything in advance. I simply can't conduct myself in that fashion.

The most important thing to remember is that contributors to online forums are, at best, a bit wacky, otherwise they wouldn't do it. That isn't to say that forums aren't of value. Obviously, I think they are, but, as I'm here, I'm clearly biased, and a post like this one does take me ages to produce (being a one-finger typist). The main thing is to realise that this is good on its own terms, but it's not real life. Keep it in proportion and never, never let it make you lose sleep!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:54 PM

Do you know this book?

Deborah Tannen: The Argument Culture

Subject: 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:59 PM

So where am I?

My awareness today allows me to examine myself quietly and calmly. A simple thing to say, but it took decades of counseling and practice to accomplish this much. I have practiced thinking, stopping to think, before I speak, and today I can do this practice with some success. Said another way, I can listen to myself and be aware of my own feelings and thoughts, and I can do so without spouting and projecting towards some other person. It's embarrassing to admit how many years of practice were required before that discipline became routine for me.

Today I can question what is/was decided in my mind. I can investigate my thinking for decisions, then question the decisions I find already in place.

You notice I don't say much about my perceptions of the emotions or thoughts of others, the things that others experience. If this sounds cautious or defensive, or conflict-averse, all that is true of my behavior. In truth, it has been a life-long problem for me that I merge with the thoughts and emotions of others, without even trying to, and that I have all I can do to keep myself to myself and not get lost.

Gosh, I never talk about these things. Exhale. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 06:49 PM

You're doing all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 09:24 PM

There are many things we don't talk about. Some of them are so very much a part of us that talking about them would be like ripping a part of yourself off. Others become less painful, more of an excrescence which will, when the time is ripe, permit the healing of words and talking and understanding. Both make us what we were, are, and will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 01:54 AM

What's the policy change, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 02:05 AM

I agree, We are complex critters and all sorts of things add up to make us who we are. It does take effort - and sometimes pain - to reflect on how we got to here, but as Socrates said "The unconsidered life is not worth living". And yes, in some cases shouting about something can be because that we have formed a settled opinion about it after a long struggle and we don't want that wound opened again. Though silence can be driven by exactly the same reluctance to revisit things that we would rather not think about.

As a personal example, more than forty years ago I was asked to warn a university friend that a third party was not to be trusted and I didn't do so, essentially because I thought it would break our friendship. As a result when some years later my friend got badly treated by them, I have always felt I've had an some indirect responsibility for it. Last year while speaking to my friend we discussed it for the first time. The feeling is still there, of course, but is healed a little by my friend's understanding, and I think we each have a more mature view of what actually happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 02:43 AM

Thompson, the policy change was to make the BS section for logged-in members only. Anyone not logged-in can read the threads, but only logged-in bona-fide members can post to them.

As Steve said earlier, Max allowed the change but was very sniffy and ungracious about it (even though anyone with more than one working brain cell could see that it's the right thing to do, and would be good for the forum). But the evidence is here that, certainly at the moment, it's a change for the better, and I personally welcome it.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:23 AM

keberoxu, this is very interesting. I know exactly what you mean about people 'shouting' and getting aggressive on a forum, (and in real life) I agree that mostly, their ideas are firmly fixed, and they are reacting with strops rather than considering other viewpoints. That type will probably never adjust their opinions or learn very much at all about other people.
What upsets me a lot is the disgraceful name-calling and outright insulting comments that some posters here have slung around. Some threads have degenerated into a shameful slanging match of rudeness and childishness. However, I did notice that many of the offenders were actually members, so I can't see how the new rules will stop them.
I'm truly sorry you grew up in a noisy, shouty household. I've been a teacher all my working life, and have met several families where everyone bellows at everyone else, and no-one is heard. It has a marked effect on the personalities of the children. They either become aggressive bullies themselves, or retreat into a timid, subdued silence. It isn't healthy either way.
I often look at the Mumsnet site, and I notice there that over-aggressive posts or insulting, unacceptable comments are immediately withdrawn. Posters can 'report' a nasty post, and it seems to be monitored very assiduously. It's a huge money-making venture of course, with a large staff. But you don't see any vicious nastiness on there. It's censorship, I see that, but in any community one has to have a modicum of good manners, or the whole thing descends into some gruesome and bitter slanging match.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:50 AM

Eliza, I think that there will still be bad behaviour from the bunch of 'Usual Suspects' (and before any of them start moaning on about 'naming names', we all know who they are and, more importantly, they know who they are, so naming them or not is an irrelevance), but everyone will know who they are, and that every post by member x is actually the same person.

There will always be bad behaviour, some people just can't help themselves, but removing the pernicious effect of 'GUEST' rabble-rousing must surely be for the better?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:01 AM

Perhaps I don't take the BS section to be serious. Above the line it can be, and often is, interesting and informative (I'm still after the words of a parody by the way)

Below the line it's just a bit of silliness for the most part, don't take it so seriously would be my advice.

The parody by the way is the story of a sailor who is seduced by a woman, he ends up lamenting "Mother I am quite undone"

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:02 AM

as keberoxu has effectively pointed out: shouting is not communicating. Though it is sort of therapy, it is temporary and the listeners (those that are listening) don't necessarily enjoy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:04 AM

I know for a fact that some members log out and post as guests, I don't think that was acceptable behaviour and the guest ban will put an end to that.

In saying that there were guests who simply did not want to become full members for their own private reasons and they often contributed a different perspective to the threads without being abusive. I will be sorry to see them go.
I think the reason these people did not register is that they were unwilling to subject themselves to the personal abuse which has been rampant here for the last few years. Hopefully they will now register and we can benefit from their obvious wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:19 AM

"I think the reason these people did not register is that they were unwilling to subject themselves to the personal abuse which has been rampant here for the last few years. Hopefully they will now register and we can benefit from their obvious wisdom."

You have a point, Ake. However, some of the worst behaviour has come from logged-in members, and it remains to be seen if their behaviour will improve. At the moment things look **better** but will it last? Time will tell.

And it's good to see Eliza registered as a member - as someone who doesn't post a lot but who lurks and reads a very great deal, I regard her worth-while, and often sagely, opinions as being very welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:31 AM

I'm glad the anonymous guest posting in this section has gone as well - not that I'm a great contributor to this section these days. When posters can actually refrain from coming up with the same, insulting parodic nicknames they use for posters they constantly argue with, it might get even better.

I'm a mod on another forum, and I've never had to use my moderator powers to censor, delete or edit any post, or had to caution or ban any member - ever. That's because the members, to a person, are polite and generous to each other. This other forum, by the way, is dedicated to the art and science of repairing mechanical watches, so there's a great deal of practical advice and help offered and given from oldies to newbies. Even the "Off-topic" section - the equivalent of our BS section here - is polite and helpful.

And the forum members also have musos as members1

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 05:14 AM

"However, I did notice that many of the offenders were actually members, so I can't see how the new rules will stop them. "

The new rules don't affect logged-in members at all, except in one way: the ethos of the place should be much improved now that it's free of anonymous cowardly snipers, and that should rub off. As I've said before, it was a bit like the Wild West. I'm optimistic, but if I'm wrong the place is just a basket case. We can only try.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 05:15 AM

I'm a member of another music-related forum, Will, and I'd pass similar comments about that forum - member-only posting, members behave with decorum, and are very generous with one another. That's not to say that they never criticise, they do, but in a reasonable and civil manner.

On the very rare occasions where members start to flare up and matters become vitriolic, Moderation is pretty much immediate, the Moderator identifies him/her self, and gives a warning and reasons for that warning. In other words, the Moderator behaves like an adult and treats the offenders like adults.

And it's a nice place to be as a result. Not something we can say about this place very often?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 05:21 AM

"The new rules don't affect logged-in members at all, except in one way: the ethos of the place should be much improved now that it's free of anonymous cowardly snipers, and that should rub off. As I've said before, it was a bit like the Wild West. I'm optimistic, but if I'm wrong the place is just a basket case. We can only try."

Yep, my sentiments exactly, Steve. We live in hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 06:48 AM

As a retired teacher of mainly 8yr olds, I've been much struck by the behaviour of the rude, cruel and silly posters on Mudcat as being extremely similar to that of my pupils in the playground. One can try to ignore it, but eventually one has to intervene.

I imagine that, since everyone is now 'traceable' the Moderators can send a message privately to give a warning of some sort.

How kind of you Backwoodsman - and thank you for your generous comment.
I'm smiling, because I was advised there is another member called Eliza, and had to choose another username. Senoufou is the name of my husband's tribe. I'm a Senoufou toubabou! (a white Senoufou) but people here still call me Eliza, which is touching.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Mo the caller
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 06:52 AM

I suppose that there is one (legitimate?) reason for a member wishing to log out and post anon.
Sometimes threads here discuss personal problems and we might have an experience to share, but not under a mudcat name since we tend to know each other in real life too.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:24 AM

Have I been blind
Have I been lost
Have I been wrong
Have I been wise
Have I been strong
Have I been
Hypnotized
Mesmerized?

Of course
but knowing that
now you can choose.
Your experience is
the only honest thing
you can ever share and
they are not all
polite or fair.

EVEN THE snipers
and late bloomers
deserves time to mature


Natalie&Don

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 11:22 AM

well, there is a recent post here that members tend to know each other in real life. Me, I don't know a single one of you. The forum came to my attention because search engines like Google pull up song lyrics which are posted on forum threads, so I came here hunting for words to a song.

This thread is drawing a diverse variety of responses which is a healthy thing. My gratitude to those posters whose comments convey that, regardless of where they are at the moment, they have been where I am and they know where to find me. All the persuasive argument in the world is of little comfort to somebody who feels alone and lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 11:39 AM

I've only ever met two people from here, Raggytash (salt of the earth he is) and a member from Bude who doesn't post much, and never down below to my knowledge. And, apart from staving off moderators* on occasion, I think I've only ever bantered offlist with four or five people, none of them to any great extent. It's a funny, alternative sort of world.

*Not fair. They're actually quite nice to me in PMs!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 11:58 AM

I know several members personally, at least one of them being one that many others here complain bitterly about (he's a very nice, likeable guy in The Real World, a nice guitar-player and singer, and extremely dry and witty).

I've also revealed my true identity to several who I haven't met, but with whom I feel safe to 'open up'.

I don't care about true identities, I'm happy so simply 'know' someone as they present themselves here. All I need to know is that, when I'm interacting repeatedly with "x', it's 'x' I'm speaking and listening to every time.

Eliza - my pleasure! Just glad to have you around again. 👍😄

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:23 PM

I have a sort of scoring system, in which anything above 5 is a pass:

Logged in, real name, consistent: 10

Logged in, consistent pseudonym: 8

Logged in, changed name: 6

Not logged in by accident (lost cookie, immediate apology): 9.5

Not logged in by accident, as above but no apology, 5.01

Member but not logged in on purpose, real name used: 8

As above but with pseudonym: 5.00001

Non-member, real name, music only: 9

Non-member, pseudonym, music only: 5.01

Non-member, no pseudonym: 0

Multiple identities under any circumstances: 0

(Note that a moderator posting as "mudelf" who is bollocking someone, deleting posts, closing threads and having last words falls into that last category. Mudelfs doing useful things such as combining threads, making helpful corrections or deleting duplicate posts are exempted)

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:29 PM

Keeping score does no harm.
Neither does it help.
Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 04:13 PM

My tongue was firmly in my cheek. And I do cheek!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 06:08 PM

keberoxu, while it is true that some of us know each other in real life, this is a site with a lot of members, and most of us have not met one another in real life, much less know each other well.

I have met many people who used to post regularly on Mudcat from my side of the pond (USA) via the FSGW Getaway. In fact, I joined Mudcat only after a close friend who was already a Mudcatter persuaded me to attend a Getaway, and met some of the folks there, which then lead to me joining Mudcat.

Having said that, there was a time when a majority of people on Mudcat experienced it, and therefore treated it, as a real community, albeit a virtual one. There was no divide between how they behaved in 3-D and how they behaved on-line. Even then, there were people who I had met in 3-D who were very likable and behaved very well in 3-D who had very different on-line personas, and did not regard the forum on Mudcat as a 'real' social community.

As the internet and social media evolved, it was inevitable that this place would also. Those whose perspective is that Mudcat is simply an internet forum and not a real community eventually prevailed. Some folks still come back to the BS section and read certain threads, but very rarely, if ever, post. I know this because of occasional pm's or phone calls I get from Mudcatters who haven't posted in a very long time, or who will post on the increasing occasions when a long time member dies and an Obit thread is started. Also from conversations at the annual Getaway when I may see people who haven't posted on Mudcat for a very long time.

I'm not a big "behind the scenes" communicator and don't mean that I am busy on the phone or that my pm exchanges are frequent. Two of the best communicators, both on the threads and in terms of reaching out via phone calls or pm's just to chat are gone now. Katlaughing and Catspaw.

I never met either of them in 3-D, but both would call me and others fairly often, just to chat or talk about shared personal concerns or life experiences that usually had little to do with whatever was going on in the forum. I never thought it possible, because of distance, that Kat and I would ever meet face-to-face, but 'Spaw and I had made tentative plans to really meet in 3D within a few months of when he died. Both of them did have visits over the years from a number of Mudcatters who were traveling through their locales.

Given that there are only remnants of a virtual community below the line, and the BS section is now dominated by debate, and has become predominantly just another internet forum, I completely understand Max's decision.

Nothing is static. All things change, including Mudcat. More and more it is evolving toward the more exclusive use it for which it was originally intended. A music resource.

I think, but do not know, that Mudcat was one of the earliest of social media forums/communities. Some sociologist or anthropologist may one day find this long-lasting site rich material to mine re evolution of social media - because I'm pretty sure that except for some stuff lost during a couple of spectacular crashes Max designed the site such that everything posted from inception is archived and accessible to a researcher.

I live in an area of the south of small communities and participate in several facebook groups with local focus. There are always those who are acrimonious about the changes that have occurred over time in their communities. It is possible to miss the past but to accept the present and to anticipate the future. Eventually, most communities dissipate. Sometime new communities arise, and some of those from the old community will be left standing in the dust.

I think there is a new community arising below the line on Mudcat. Not one where I am welcomed or comfortable, but that isn't out of malice on the part of those who are forming that new community. They just have different values and mores than do I, and distinguish between virtual interaction and 3-D interaction.

Some have commented this is a cultural difference between the UK and North America, but I don't buy that. At least not below the line. As many of the 'old guard' from the UK no longer post as from North America.

The exclusion of guest postings is a new twist but is consistent with the direction the forum has been going for quite some time.

I can't tell you where you are, keberoxu, but from what you posted, where ever you are appears to be centered and self-aware. Don't mistake this forum for your family of origin but kudos for recognizing the ways in which it may resemble your family of origin.

Whether on-line or 3D, humans act like humans, eh?

All the best to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 07:01 PM

Well, Janie, I buy nearly all that. Nearly. I'm not sure that you know that the people you see as forming a new community (not a word I enjoy using apropos of internet matters, but hey ho) have such different values. Speaking for myself, I'm acutely aware that I am associated most with that fringe group of mostly Brits who possess the knack of getting up people's noses. I wouldn't have it any other way, either, though at that point I should like to dissociate myself vehemently from two or three of them who I see as bigots (not now). But, on the whole, my values are strongly defined and are not at odds with most decent people who post here, which means nearly everybody. And that includes some of the most abrasive and sweary people here. They may not have the tactics but they are almost invariably on the right side of things, if you can just see through the insults and the bluster. OK, babies and bath water, but be careful that you're not the one pulling the plug. I'm not trying to defend the indefensible here (I don't hold back in criticising Musket for his multiple identities, for example, and I don't like the worst kinds of sweariness, and I've said so. I've tried to stop calling people names even!), but if it's a community you desire then all I can say is that it takes all sorts, and the strength of any community is defined by how well it can embrace the diversity within it. Trying to achieve a community that you've pre-defined on very narrow, cosy lines won't work when the topics up for debate are as wide-ranging as they are here. Fine if it's a forum dedicated to just knitting or pussycats.

One other thing. This discussion forum is very old-fashioned now (I'm not complaining, by the way). You can't post photos and you can't edit your posts, and it can be grindingly slow at times, it's hard to post links compared to most other forums, and there's a lot of competition from the cut-and-thrust, all-singing, all-dancing social media sites (I hate them and have nothing to do with them). Most other forums of this sort are in decline. Two music forums I'm on are virtually dead and two others are going downhill fast. To some extent, this one almost bucks the trend. But if we fall out over religion/abortion/Israel, let it ride. Bad threads generally burn out fast, and so what if they degenerate into an interminable squabble between two idiots. Leave 'em be. The new Guest-free ethos here will dictate that they will be ignored by almost everybody, and the protagonists will end up looking like fools. All communities contain fools. Best let them make fools of themselves rather than try to do the job for them, I reckon!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 07:55 PM

I'd also like to point out that there was a good deal of bad blood on this forum many years before the likes of me joined in. Someone recently reproduced Max's post from around fifteen years ago which pleaded for civility. There's never really been a golden age below the line, has there? Plus ça change, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:19 PM

Hi Steve. I'm not trying to sell anything, so nothing to buy or not buy.

I think most people share many common values, including the diverse group of people who belong to Mudcat.

I enjoy and learn from your posts to threads regarding birding, plants, and the natural world.

Beyond that, it is clear that somehow we talk past each other. I'm not a debater. I understand you value getting up peoples noses. I don't. We are just different in that respect. Not to say I don't value the role of the gadfly. But a community or forum that is dominated by the gadflies is not a community in which I want to spend much time or energy.

You may be correct that there is not a different community forming on Mudcat. I really don't know. From the perspective of my training and work, however, I think you are naive to think that internet forums do not possess attributes of social community.

I also think you are way too modest in seeing yourself and other cohorts as fringe elements on the current Mudcat forum, irrespective of whether you think internet forums do not have characteristics of a social community.

I often enjoy your observations on the increasingly rare threads that relate to nature - birds, gardening, seasons, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:21 PM

Me? Redundant? :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 08:42 PM

Hello? I value being able to express my views in a measured way. You seem to be implying that my priority is to get up people's noses. Not at all. That is a side-effect, and it's a function of the fact that my views are left-wing, atheistic and liberal, which don't chime well with a good number of people's here, mainly Americans. I can't help that. I'm an honest broker who's been here a long time who says what he thinks under his real full name, and you may also note that my longer posts are carefully constructed and painstakingly edited (whether you like them or not), hardly the work of a gadfly. You should be careful to have good reasons for denigrating people, and merely disagreeing may not in itself be sufficient. There is a definite pejorative tone in one of your paragraphs above. I've tried to explain why I think you're out of order, but I'll confine my retaliation to saying that you need to ditch your underlying bitterness. I'm a big, cuddly bunny in real life, and I'm not joking. I never see people here in two dimensions, not Joe, not Teribus, not Keith. They all have their complicated sides that I don't understand and there are good reasons for the way they are that I also don't understand. Me too. And you. In a real community, you don't talk past people. You try to find out what makes them tick. You've kept me up rather late. And so to bed!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 09:17 PM

No, Steve, wasn't implying anything. Perhaps I misunderstood your statement re getting up people's noses and not wishing to have it any other way. Regardless, I am not pointing fingers. Just trying to communicate, and apparently not very effectively.

My Alma Mater, UNC, is at half-time in the semi-final game for the National collegiate basketball championship - so a little distracted. We are ahead so far - Go Tarheels!

I note your post re previous bad blood. Free speech is always wild and woolly, and it would be a mistake for anyone to think that there was ever a time of Peace, Love, Respect for Everyone on Mudcat.

Also a mistake to think that the changes on the Mudcat forum and people moving away can be entirely, or even mostly attributed to "the usual suspects". Funny thing, that "usual suspects" term. When people use it, they assume all are in agreement as to who the 'usual suspects' may be, but I doubt that is the case.

But "the usual suspects" whoever one may include in that group, are made scapegoats to a certain extent. Fact is, dynamic communities change. People move in and move out, life circumstances change, interests change, friendships solidify and develop more outlets for expression than the venue where folks first connected, we get older, or the excitement becomes habituated = familiarity may breed not necessarily breed contempt, but may lead to not stimulating so many creative juices with familiarity.

I miss the neighborhood where I grew up and I miss the Mudcat of 10 years ago. But I can't say that if the Mudcat of 10 years ago was the Mudcat of today, that at this time in my life it would stimulate my own creative juices or amuse me as it did then.

I may experience some nostalgia for times in the past, not only on Mudcat but in 3D, and that is ok. May we all remember sweet memories more than sour memories. But I also know that going backwards rarely is very satisfying.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 09:40 PM

What is surprising is that so many folks from different countries, continents, cultures, life, family and community experiences, with diverse professions, genders and ages can get together and discuss a wide range of (and, at times, potentially divisive) topics in a "mostly" civil manner- to share perspectives and learn from each other.

What is also surprising is how some folks get so "worked up" when they learn that such a diverse group of strangers ,from all over, merely see things differently than they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 10:30 PM

Sorry for the thread drift, keberoxu.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 05:02 AM

The thread drift served a purpose. We were beginning to not talk past each other!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM

Not a drift at all from wherever I am at the moment.

Funny how people can casually say "Oh GROW UP" but when you actually do some growing up, you recall the phrase "growing pains."

Many thanks, one and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 01:05 PM

I saw what you did on that other thread, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 09:35 AM

I guess I'm confused, keberoxu.

Gnu has not posted in this thread, so far at least.

And "that other thread", not specified, doesn't help
either.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 11:23 AM

"Where aboust you at?" gnu asked me, on the What's The Weather Like thread. I had second thoughts after I replied, thinking, Now gnu can pounce on me on the "where am I" thread. Does gnus pounce?

(I must be feeling better now)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 16 - 06:33 PM

Gnu is Gnu. I've seen worse. That's what it's like around here. He's been prowling around me for years, not realising what a cuddly bunny I am (ask Raggytash - he'll tell you!) I'm a prophet without honour, etc. (if you believe that you'll believe anything). You're a star, so take no notice of the begrudgers!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Andrez
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 07:02 AM

Hi folks, thanks for giving and sharing of yourselves in this thread. I wasnt aware of the new 'policy' but if the civil discussion here is any indication of change then thats just fantastic! Here's hoping that the BS will lessen and we will see more real talking and intelligent discussion of events, issues, ideas and various states of being in threads below the line.

I like to hear different points of view regardless of whether they coincide with my own beliefs and values and will happily engage around these but I simply have no time for mindless dogma and ideological rigidity in thinking nor the abuse and rants seen in the BS threads in the past and so mostly skim thru or simply stay away from the forum for longish periods.

For me its all about the quality of discussion and learning about each other, our commonalities and who we are as people who contribute to the Mudcat community wherever we are located around this planet (Australia in my case).

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 05:59 PM

Ah, someone saying "Maybe it's safe to come out in the open now"....

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM

It's safer, but not safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:13 PM

Hi Steve, does this mean we'll be able to talk about evolution and the nature of science without you resorting to comments about slime trails?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 16 - 08:21 PM

We may be able to. But in science nothing is certain... 😉

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 03:02 AM

A bit like religion, eh? 😜😎

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 07:45 AM

We may be able to. But in science nothing is certain...

Progress already.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: olddude
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 10:23 AM

Here there and everywhere

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:06 PM

Glad you're here.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:37 PM

"Progress already."

I wouldn't bank on it. What's true is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: olddude
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 05:42 PM

Most of the time I forget where I am

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 07:28 PM

But in science nothing is certain..

What's true is true.

Still work to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Janie
Date: 06 Apr 16 - 11:35 PM

Always a little wary when I or anyone thinks we know what is 'true.'

Loaded words, 'true' and 'truth.'

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 04:46 AM

We had a history teacher at school who never gave anyone more than 8 out of 10 for a piece of work, no matter how good. It made a mockery of the ten-point scale. Likewise in language, having words we're wary of using is a shame. I like "true" and use it a lot. Anyway, I know what's underlying this, of course, so let me say without fear or favour that evolution is real. It's a true phenomenon! We also have a theory for it which is very good at trying to get closer to the truths therein. That's what science is all about, trying to look for what is really true. Of course, there is one area of human thought that routinely misuses the word, We call it religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:31 AM

I quite agree, Janie. Declarations of Truth make me uncomfortable, especially in a scientific context. Finding that when you challenge such statements you just find them repeated over and over again without further justification doesn't help.

Steve Shaw
Of course, there is one area of human thought that routinely misuses the word, We call it religion.

Just so.

I'm not sure that I've got the energy to reopen that debate. If I have, I'll start a new thread. My main intention was to draw attention to the new softer, kinder, gentler Steve Shaw compared with the one I'm used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:46 AM

In the bad old days, when I worked for a living, I never gave anyone a maximum score in appraisals - even someone who was excellent in every way 'only' got, e.g. 4/5 or 'very good' rather than 'excellent'.

My boss for seventeen years, a man I held in very high regard, always said that you should never give full marks, no matter how good someone is because, by giving the top mark, you remove the employee's motivation to try even harder, and that everyone, no matter how good they might be at their job, is capable of doing 'better'.

Makes sense to me - obviously! 👍

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 16 - 07:49 AM

I was fervently hoping that you wouldn't reopen the debate but I felt the need to be fearless in putting our exchanges in this thread on an honest footing. 😉

Suffice to say that my declaration of truth in the matter to hand was not intended to be made in a scientific context. I regard it as a truth irrespective and independent of science, an irrefutable natural phenomenon. Now had I said that the theory was true, or any aspect of it, you could justifiably have had me on the ropes. Theories try to get us closer to the truth, but at the end of the day they're just our attempts to explain nature.

OMG, "only a theory..." Aargh! 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 02:06 PM

Thankfully there are several "Breeze Shooting" threads where members are thoroughly enjoying their ongoing disagreements, and I can stay out of their way and let them do so without me.

It's just that too often, any "ongoing disagreement" reminds me of the old pattern of fixed [I said "decided"] positions being repeated and nobody listening. Said another way:
there is "listening to," and there is "listening for." I am certain Wysiwyg is well acquainted with the distinction, judging from her posts.
It is very convenient and expedient to "listen for." There, one listens for words from others as a cue to launch into one's fixed statements, and to repeat them emphatically.
"Listening to" can be a real inconvenience because one cannot "listen to" without making oneself receptive. In my experience, receptivity is NOT passive, however quiet it appears: I find it is really hard work to accept and receive from a place of tranquillity. For me, to let somebody else in, to allow them time and space, to pay attention to them and to stay vigilant and alert to what they communicate, and to stay tranquil and calm, takes concentrated, sustained effort and it is a lot more difficult than it looks.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 05:22 PM

What you may see as fixed positions being stated along with hands clasped over ears may not be quite as clear-cut as you think. It could be that you are, in a way, doing the same thing yourself by not looking a little deeper. I admit freely to having a settled position on God and religion. Not so much so on politics, a moveable feast if ever there was one, and history, on which my knowledge is shaky. I'm way too slow on the uptake face-to-face in argument, but I'm in my element here because I can express myself in a measured manner and revise my posts before sending, which can be hours after someone or other has got my gander up. But I'm probing all the time and trying to find out what makes other people tick (in one or two cases, it pushes patience to the limit). There's more to everything here than meets the eye. Sticking around here is seriously nerdish, but it's intriguing nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 12:27 PM

Why do we have to be prophets, with or without honor? Look, if you have a prophet's vocation, I will leave you to it. I don't find it easy to listen, as stated earlier, but I have also learned the hard way that if I do not listen, I am likely not to be listened to.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 03:09 PM

Was that directed at me? As a matter of interest, I find that you're very listenable to!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 03:44 PM

That's kind of you, Steve, not directed at you or at one individual though. In the end, my fear is that I will start mouthing off and saying something I wish I could take back.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: olddude
Date: 10 Apr 16 - 04:24 PM

Steve won't care he and I use to always argue and pick on each other, but he knows he is my buddy.. Pick away

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 11:47 AM

As to where am i, for one day I was on the outside and could not even look in. Whenever I logged into a public computer (the only kind I have access to) it refused to bring up Mudcat even with the URL in place. Now the computer brings it up as though nothing had happened.
Um, nothing else to report.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 06:18 PM

Mudcat has been offline Keberoxu, seems to be working again.

I thought perhaps someone had self detonated in admin, but all is well. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 02:59 PM

growing up is hard to do sometimes. Had another sleepless night of it. Good to wake up and find you all here. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 08:34 AM

Steve Shaw
But I'm probing all the time and trying to find out what makes other people tick

Not in my experience you aren't. You state things to be categorically true then hurl insults at anyone who dares to question you.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 12:18 PM

No I don't! And not "things," just evolution!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 01:49 PM

Not much probing or trying to find out what makes other people tick there.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 01:51 PM

How's about what makes people pricks there?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 05:35 PM

A couple of years ago I might have said that about Snailie, Greg. But now that I'm the new, milder me, I just sympathise with his rather sorry lack of warmth. Maybe he'll grow out of it, just like you and me!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:36 PM

Just a thought, guys:
This thread started with Keberoxu sharing some very personal feelings; that led to a period of very gentle and thoughtful exchange. I won't say that the thread is a total loss yet, but we've somehow got back to a go-round, much as in, what, a year or more ago, about the exact terminology that's appropriate for expressing the understanding that there is very solid evidence for the reality of evolution. Can some of the parties here see themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:49 PM

My first post mentioned Wysiwyg and a post of theirs from a thread sometime back. My conscience is nagging me to quote that post on this thread, so anyone can see why I put the word "triage" in the thread title.   The date was 4 Oct 2008.

[quote]
The secret of surviving in the ministry -- to always keep yourself healthy enough to remain a step ahead of the crowd so you can help them when they need it...because one of our favorite sayings is, "They know who to call." But another one is, "They prefer the hope to the reality." Eventually, as we get older, if we survive, we learn to take both the hope AND the reality.

A case in point. I have twice now offered some seriously-reality-based thoughts to an individual I am thinking of today, who prefers not to listen at the moment. That tells me that this individual is not yet at the place where their own "smarts" have gotten them into enough trouble that they can tell the difference between their hopes and a real, solid upward path. And that's fine -- because the day that person realizes that they need to listen up, they will recall what I said and/or my phone will ring. Till then I have my hands full of the last one who needed to call. And so it goes, around and around. (And of course sometimes I'm the one calling others when my "smarts" wear thin.)

Several times a year I get e-mails, calls, or in-person indications that whatever I said years ago finally kicked in, and usually an apology for not listening. The acknowledgement is nice because it updates me on what their next level of of help/need may be, but the apologetic mindset helps them, not me; after I hear them process their thoughts about this, I just tell them to pay out that line, that kind of slack, to someone else when they get the chance. My mom taught me this pattern: we laugh and laugh when I call to tell her what lesson from her parenting kicked in "yesterday."

Community. It has its own triage built in, because not everybody can listen and accept at the same time. Good thing, too, or we'd all be overwhelmed and panicked at the same time!
[endquote]

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 07:51 PM

Speak kindly to Snail, frogprince. Some of us are actually trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 02:36 PM

Just did some forum research on what's new with Wysiwyg, until this moment I had not realized -- being rather new here -- how much upheaval and crisis there has recently been in her life.

No wonder her participation here is limited at the moment. Sending her positive thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: mg
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:16 PM

I am not sure what you mean by triage. To me it has a military meaning which is very dismal and has four groupings, not three.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:32 PM

Just posted, quoting another thread, and a post from Wysiwyg. I don't know Wysiwyg but I don't believe she is in the military; sounds as though she is a pastor's spouse. So her point of reference must be the helping professions in general, and the ministry in particular; it is she I was quoting when I chose the word "triage."

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 04:51 PM

Some of us are actually trying

Very!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 05:08 PM

...you mean, very trying ?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 05:11 PM

I thought triage was something that happened at our medical centre to stop us from bothering the real doctor!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 07:22 AM

Yes

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 08:05 AM

A couple of weeks ago I said "Hi Steve, does this mean we'll be able to talk about evolution and the nature of science without you resorting to comments about slime trails?".

To be fair, Steve hasn't mentioned slime trails but apart from that, declarations of Truth and personal attacks. Can't really see much difference between the new softer, gentler, kinder Steve and the old one.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 09:04 AM

You can't improve on perfection, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 09:42 AM

WYSIWYG is well known to long-time Mudcat members, and if she spots this thread will no doubt speak for herself. I suspect connectivity issues at the retirement house, and logging on with a tablet is not as easy as staying logged on with a computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:33 AM

That's my Steve! Stick to the same old same old. Saves you ever having to think or, horror of horrors, admit you're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:36 AM

That isn't very nice. And you appear to be stalking me over two threads just a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 11:08 AM

TheSnail, do you have anything to contribute or are you simply interested in getting up Steve's nose?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 12:09 PM

Getting up my nose doesn't usually work. I'm a fool to myself sometimes by responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 01:01 PM

Dear moderators: some posters have objected to the word "triage" in the thread title. Actually I can take or leave the word. So I leave it to your judgment: should you find that the thread title is more acceptable without "triage" in it, feel free to alter as you see fit, thanks -- original poster

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 01:43 PM

Where am I has a short, clinical answer today: depression, the kind that requires medication. I am on meds, have been for years, and need them more than ever.

The warning sign got me yesterday:
Listening to music hurts. Normally music makes me feel better. When the same feel-good music makes me feel worse instead of better, that adds up to depression.

Obviously I know my way about this territory. It has been a number of years since this kind of hurt made itself felt. Invariably it is old repressed post-traumatic emotion; it was so before, and it is so now. Of course there are present-day triggers, I'm going to keep those private for the moment.

Whether I like it or not, something deep is surfacing in order to be dealt with and healed. If it's anything like my past depression cycles, it will last a while, it will require attention, and it will be temporary, giving way to something different. I guess I am as ready for it as I'm going to be. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 01:52 PM

keberoxu, you sound as though you know how to deal with your depression which is a good thing, as it can be overwhelming at times. (My niece suffers from it) Have you got support from friends and family? And is your doctor helpful?
Wishing you all the best, and hoping you feel better very soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 06:29 PM

Let's keep talking about music!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Andrez
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 06:49 PM

Well for all its bright hopes since my earlier post, this thread also seems to have gone downhill like so many others after all. What a shame. Hope you are getting all the help, support and hugs you need to get through your current situation Keberoxu.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 07:38 PM

Andrez, thanks for the sympathy and good wishes; and maybe instead of "what a shame" we should think of this as an inclusive thread, that is, inclusive within the policy change about BS/below-line threads at Mudcat. Only members can post on threads below the line; all members are welcome to post on this one, including the group of members whose clusters of posts bring to mind a short story by James Herriot.

Yes, you know where this is going, because you remember that this author (a pen name, as some readers know) was a veterinarian, God be good to him. Or is that, Dog be good to him? Anyway, I first saw this short story in the collection of James Herriott stories about dogs, "James Herriot's Dog Stories."

"A Triumph of Surgery" is the story in which an eccentric, wealthy widow must be parted from her boon companion, a Pekingese. They have to be separated because she is slowly killing the dog by overfeeding him. The only thing for it, is to bring the Pekingese to the veterinary surgery for fourteen days and keep the widow at her home away from the dog. The story title comes from the widow's exclamation when, two weeks later, she is reunited with her thoroughly healthy dog.

There was no surgery, of course. Nor is food forcibly withheld from the Pekingese. He is free to help himself to the food given, at their feeding time, to the other dogs. But at first he is so out of it that he cannot even move, so the vet keeps him well hydrated, giving him plenty of water; since the dog is listless, the other dogs (residents, some of them) give him one sniffing over and leave him in peace.

When the Pekingese actually feels well enough to take an interest in solid food -- this takes a few days and nights on liquids -- then the vet checks him over, making sure the dog is healthy enough in every other respect, and lets him out into the fenced areas of the converted property where the vets have their surgery, and where the other dogs get fresh air and exercise. A week or so of that is all it takes to bring the dog back to life.

"A mass of dogs, hurtling round and round the lawn..."
"....he began to whimper when he heard the dogs in the yard. When I opened the door, [he] trotted out and was immediately engulfed by Joe the Greyhound and his friends. After rolling him over and thoroughly inspecting him, the dogs moved off down the garden. [He] followed them....
"From then on, his progress was rapid. He had no medicinal treatment of any kind, but all day he ran about with the dogs, joining in their friendly scrimmages. He discovered the joys of being bowled over, trampled on, and squashed every few minutes. He became an accepted member of the gang, an unlikely, silky little object among the shaggy crew, fighting like a tiger for his share at meal times, and hunting rats in the old hen house at night. He had never had such a time in his life."

pp. 20 - 22, copyrights in the 1970s. New York, St. Martin's Paperbacks (the anthology)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 08:39 PM

keberoxu, I hope that relaxing and rolling around a bit with the shaggy individuals here helps you a bit in coping. I've been just to the borderline of clinical depression myself, but family members have had more serious struggles.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:17 PM

Dunno about the rolling around bit 😉 but I thoroughly echo that sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 06:54 AM

keberoxu, Been there, done that. Hang in there, things will get better.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Stim
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 11:51 AM

Wasn't able to post, owning to my former status as "GUEST,Stim", Keberoxu, but I've had a sense of your mental condition since your original post, and have been holding you in the Light.

Though it isn't always obvious, most of us here are "creatives" of one kind or another (performers, musicians, writers, poets, teachers, et al) and part of that is that we often/usually/always have a predisposition to journey into the dark realms. As The Snail says, "Been there, done that...things will get better". I hope you can hold on to that, and never let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: mg
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 02:46 PM

strengthen yourself physically as you go through this. remember the s in ptsd is stress and there are things that can reduce stress...one is going barefoot in the grass..reduces cortisol by 50% I have read..barefoot on sand. get sun in your face and your eyes..not blazing but some. drink lots of water. eat fish. drink herbal tea like chamomile. get some lavendar oil or bath products from real lavendar...lots of small things can help. don't skimp on healthy fats..butter, avocado, coconut oil, olive oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 03:33 PM

Wow, look at all this. Thanks, one and all.

You know what makes my day, though. It's the admission that one person who was a guest went from guest status to full membership, and can now join the rest of us. Not that my threads and posts have anything to do with it; but after the commotion that prompted my original post here, this is a welcome, positive, constructive thing.

The other thing about me is that I am not a dog. I am a beast, and make no mistake about that, but I am not a dog -- just a different species of critter. Pack behavior is something I observe without an insider's, well, insight. And I do think of those members whose posts attract each other in bristling, growling clumps as acting out pack behavior. I have to remind myself about the old bark-versus-bite saying. The generation of beasts that raised me, they actually bit. But then, they weren't dogs either.

Today, my family of origin is still a family but they are not my family and I am not one of them. I would be in Dog-knows-how-much-worse shape had I stayed in their predator-territory. I have slowly gotten better; some of them, from my childhood, have slowly gotten worse. It can be the saddest thing in the world to be proven correct, it turns out.

Thanks again for the encouragement, solidarity, and helpful hints!

Oh I almost forgot. How many of you know that the writer known as James Herriot suffered badly from depression? At one point he required ECT -- Dog forbid I ever have to resort to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 01:15 PM

Yesterday my repeated attempts to go to the Mudcat Cafe on a public computer met with failure. Was that just me?

I missed you people the way I miss fresh air.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 02:35 PM

No, it wasn't just you keberoxu, I too tried quite a few times and it wouldn't come up. Strangely, I tried with one of those 'Is it offline?' sites, and it said it was actually 'on', so I assumed it was my little laptop at fault. I'm hopelessly inept with technology, but like you, I missed being able to read the posts.
I do hope you're feeling well today, and coping.
Best wishes to you!
Eliza

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 03:45 PM

Happens quite a lot - I guess when the back-office are doing 'Stuff'. Be patient, it always comes back..........eventually! 👍

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 05:27 PM

Only just found this thread, and what with down times on the cat ,and being formerly a guest....... Don't think I will add anything at present, except there have been some honest, thoughtful, sensitive posts within this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 10:12 PM

Keberoxu, Regarding your initial post.

The noisy argumentative family can also be viewed as a fun Jewish family like Woody Allen's family who lived under a roller coaster or my family in suburbia.

I was just talking about how you can't talk people out of what their hearts want. You also can't change innate hardwiring of the brain that much. I didn't hear my own language disability but I sure got a lot of criticism for being lazy. I knew I perceived nuance, secrets   and detail in my world but often became defensive trying to prove intelligence despite my expression of the world.

What I did have was a repurposed angular gyrus in the brain in which I slowly converted from visual to additional verbal application.

Being different in this way often made me the other, not of this tribe or as some here have said " a portentous feckless prognosticator with too much time on his hands who would do anything to achieve obscurity". Certainly the critique is all very clever and possibly true but it is the hand I was dealt in my lifetime and should not be a bother or effective steeping stone to anyone else.

I no longer lead a competitive or defensive life. As long as I remain honest in describing ideas that seem valid to me, it is up to others to ignore, reject, explore or agree with my non linear propositions.
Who cares, joke em if they can't take a fuck.

As you might imagine I've had some incredible "being there" or Forrest Gump moments with the CIA, FBI,Naval Intelligence, Jesuit Church, and other organizations that have tendencies to see boogeymen or genius' where there might not be anything. These are the best stories I have to tell.

So keberoxu The more honest you become, the more similarities people will see they have with you. And for the remaining differences, vivre la difference.

We will all be bags of silent dust soon enough as it is anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 10:54 PM

Take all the sustenance you need from mudcat but as strange as it sounds you will know you are getting better when you find you don't need to use it all the time. Not checking in for long stretches in time means that your life is becoming more varied and interesting.

When you do spend time here it will be more for fun and comraderies than just a need for support.

So enjoy, the water here is fine and less critical than most social media owing to the efforts of Joe Offer and Max.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 11:27 PM

The most valid post here might be from mg regarding exercise.

My son is depressed. It is a matter of becoming caught in an unhelpful and inactive pattern. This pattern is finally getting reversed with "offline" walks in the park.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 May 16 - 02:57 PM

With all due respect:
steeping stone? Is this for ceremonial tea making??

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 01 May 16 - 09:03 PM

Sounds tasty but stepping stone was my intention. You sound like a young man so don't listen to me. I've already started to circle the wagons and shut down the reactor. The only new thing I started to do is learn to play the mandolin but the picking rolls and cross picking is hard to do for a stupid right hand. I hope practice will do the trick someday. It happened for my left hand like night and day one morning. From feeling lost it suddenly was directly connected to any melody I was able to hear mentally.

Do you play?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 May 16 - 05:40 PM

Before I stopped, I was a long-time piano student, many years of formal study. I don't miss the piano; I am most grateful that I learned music theory and became literate, able to read (most though not all) printed music through studying piano. Also sang in choruses.

Your description of me is flattering considering what I really am, so I will just grin and let it pass!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 May 16 - 08:49 PM

I had an experience, researching a genre of recorded music for a Mudcat thread above the line, that turned into a trigger. An "opportunity for learning and growth" as they used to say. Edifying, certainly.

There I was listening to a compact disc from Gael Linn, and a song track recorded around 1960 for a vinyl album promoting the Gael Linn Cabaret which took musical performers to various venues in Ireland, some outside of Dublin. It was the fourth song on the album, and I was unprepared for the sound of it. After all, it was preceded by Máire Ní Scolaí, singing sean-nós in the recording studio as no doubt she sang it on RTE broadcasts. Within her own technical style, Ní Scolaí was an artist of restrained good taste, and never went for the cheap gesture.

Then a piano loudly played an introduction, and a Gaelic lyric -- it turns out to be an Irish Jacobite personification of Éire as Bonnie Prince Charlie's forsaken, faithful sweetheart -- was trumpeted forth by a soprano who, as I have posted elsewhere, sounded like a cross between Victor Herbert operetta and Wagnerian opera. Not a singer myself, I was however trained and schooled as a pianist who specialized in accompanying students of teachers of classical singing at the university/conservatory level, and this sound of voice and piano, so desperately European sounding, took me back to my student days.

I was forcibly reminded how I just merged with my studies, my repertoire, and everything that goes with that tradition, as a young student, and how unable I was to perceive that said tradition came from a century and an era that is over and done with. Two World Wars have made irreversible changes in the Europe from which this musical tradition came. While there are those who preserve what remains of the tradition, and people with deep pockets who sponsor said preservation, it is not really a healthy environment for a young artist to live and grow in. Of course I benefited from my efforts there, but I lament how mindless I was and how blinded to the impracticality of that whole way of life; I don't make that kind of music anymore, nor have done for many years. This public computer is about to kick me off, so good night, everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:35 PM

Classical music was a godsend for me when I was young, repressed, introverted, and needed a formal education. Devoting myself to a discipline outside of formal schooling would have greatly frightened me back then; the structure and order of academia compensated greatly for my own insecurities. The last thing I could see myself doing was after-hours entertaining in public places for money, and I left that to the professionals -- it was years I spent alternating between the university practice rooms and the library stacks. I remember that I was afraid to come out of my safe zone when my formal education was completed.

My curriculum vitae actually supplies the kind of academic credentials with which to teach as I was taught. As investments go, I could have made worse ones. It kept me off the streets. And yet, once I got to grips with myself, got some much-needed counseling and professional help, and considered the matter over again, I found that the last thing I wanted to do was to teach what I had been taught, how I had been taught, where I had been taught.

Not so many years ago, I found myself driving a car, back in the city with my alma mater, from which I had been away for decades. I took the risk of driving my car in broad daylight down the avenue along which the university campus mostly stretches itself out, taking me past the buildings with the practice rooms, the faculty studios, the auditoriums, and the libraries, seeing them for the first time in many years. I nearly had to stop driving from the shock of the triggered emotions inside; nothing distracting outside, driving conditions were quite safe. What welled up and overflowed in me was a great mess of emotion between anxiety and panic. I had to talk myself down, to reassure myself that my experience in this place was all over now, it was finished, in the past, and I need never be confined again doing what I did before.

It won't surprise anybody that I stay away from reunions....

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 May 16 - 03:56 AM

keberoxu, your last post brought tears to my eyes, it was so sad. You were like a wild bird in a luxurious but imprisoning cage.

I can relate to some of your emotions, as I too clung to academia, being too insecure (and much younger than my fellow University students) to dare to pursue the life I really wanted. Teaching paid the mortgage and gave me much-treasured independence, but it wasn't my 'true love' at all.

It can be very hard to live as an adult carrying sadness and regret from one's early years around. The struggle can become overwhelming at times. I do feel for you, and hope you can find strength and peace in your present life.

Thinking of you.
Eliza

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:19 PM

This moment is not a good one to take the time and say more, but thanks, Eliza, for responding. Thanks everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 May 16 - 08:37 AM

For this post, it did occur to me to start a new thread in music; then on second thought, decided to leave the post in this thread. An earlier post mentioned that a compact disc was playing, the tune was Gaelic, but the soprano and pianist were performing an arrangement that turned it into a companion for arias and art songs; and hearing it triggered recall of the unhappiness of my student years in classical music.

I had the good fortune to audition for and be accepted into a summer program where young musicians became apprentices at a working opera house, I won't say which one. Sounds unusual for an introvert, but I was a keyboard player, not a singer/actor, and it's possible to work in that very intense drama atmosphere behind the scenes and still be un-dramatic, many musicians do. That summer propelled me out of classical music altogether which was actually a positive thing. Firstly, I needed professional help and needed to stop over-working and stuffing my feelings. Secondly, I needed to face facts about the classical music patronage in the good old U.S. People with deep pockets keep the system going, and being sponsored by the wealthy and power-hoarding contributors makes for an unhealthy situation. Sure you get the attention given the hothouse plant that would not survive outside, so you don't lack for care and comforts; but where is everybody? you know? These aren't my people here.

I'm going somewhere with this, but I have to post this and come back later. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 May 16 - 09:55 AM

That summer at the opera house, I got the work done, but I did not fit in. There was only one maestro, who required a pianist because his instrument was not piano, for whom I could leave my troubles outside the door and feel safe and secure with him in charge. He was an Italian old enough to have lived through the second World War in his native Italy, and a seasoned enough musician (orchestra) to know what Italy lost in culture in the postwar era. I can still hear him opinionating, "Mozart is Italian, and Georg Solti should leave him alone!" He was impassioned and unchangeable, and I remember the staff who cared for the apprentices, taking me aside and cautioning me that he would tear me to pieces; also another staff member who met him earlier, whispering to us apprentices: "Insane, certifiably insane, don't believe a word he says." This was a maestro who was reknowned in opera houses all over the world, not a celebrity but within the actual closed circles of the musicians his name was golden. And the American staff cheerfully drew up a contract with him, squeezed out of him what culture they could extract, and otherwise disregarded him as an alien species of creature.

If the maestro was insane, then so was I. He and I established an immediate rapport, and I joined him in his inner world of words and music, sailing along on the gusts of wind with which he flew from one operatic topic to another unencumbered by logic or rational thought, while the other apprentices stared at the two of us. Paradoxically, the more I felt at home in his company, the more I was convinced that I didn't belong in a system that patronized him without respecting him. Since then, he has lived out his life span and died in his native Italy; I got out of classical music and have not regretted doing so, because my attention was better devoted to getting healthy than to getting ahead and adding more lines and pages to the resume. In fact my resume pretty much died the death, as far as the music business goes. The people who knew me back then won't speak to me now, and I understand only too well: I was full of hostility and resentment, not a well person, and not a good colleague, even if I was a biddable student and subordinate on the job.

Sorry, once again I have to stop. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 May 16 - 08:51 PM

When this thread was started, there had just been a policy change in the BS section, and I was still smarting from the distress of the circumstances that led to that policy change, mostly from the old "unfinished business" that the distress brought up.

Today a different thread, by a different member, was started in the BS section, which could never have been risked as long as that free-for-all riskiness from before was permitted. It was a pleasure to queue up for posting on that new thread, and to see others with their hearts in sympathetic vibration. I hope that said thread -- the readers who pay attention, you know which thread I mean -- prospers and supports all of us members who have risks to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 06:44 PM

Where am I? In a moving spiral of some kind. Not a flat spin on a circle as near as I can tell, but a spiral, that is a return on one plane but is beyond the earlier point at the same time. This thread was started because of emotions that wanted attention but were not easy to put into words.

More recently what has needed attention is my aching heart. Between the heartache and the open air, there are defenses, grudges, attitudes, places of hardness which absorb vibrations and striking blows. I guess the hard places are there for a reason, and it is not a question of going without them in life, they have to be lived with. It hurts so badly under the hardness of heart. I have to give the hurting heart permission to live, to breathe, to pulse, even though I don't want to feel the hurt. If I want to feel my heart, I have to feel my hurt. I wish I could just put the hurt to sleep, but then my heart would stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 06:59 PM

Keberoxu: just this much: In reading your various posts, I'm getting you as a very thoughtful person whom I would be happy to think of as a friend, and I'm quite sure that I'm not alone in that here.

                   Dean

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 12:41 AM

I just had a no good very bad terribly horrible dream. President Trump as of Jan. 24 2017 had still not finished establishing his cabinet so he was running executive branch communications mostly via Twitter. Without having named the Secretary of State, Defense or Attorney General embarrassing delays were mounting still a few appointments were made such as;

Lance Armstrong   Ambassador to France
Carl Icahn       Dept. Treasury
Martin Skhreli   Dept. Weights and Measures
Daniel H Mudd    Fannie Mae
Bernard Madoff   SEC
Chris Christy    Ambassador to Bangladesh
Rush Limbaugh    FCC
Steve Wynn       FAA
George Zimmerman HUD
Bob Jones       UN Ambassador      
Wayne La Pierre Education Dept.
Joe Arpaio       Federal Corrections
Ivanka Trump    Chief of Staff
Cliven Bundy    Dept. Interior
David Koch       Minister of Propaganda
James Inhoff    Science advisor

Responding to a segment on the news show 60 minutes, Donald decided to send out a twitter declaring who could get an exception to the Muslim ban. Perhaps owing to enthusiasm Donald included a colored emoticon of an Arab and what he thought was the dome of a Mosque for the Saudi Ambassador.

Despite being new and improved Twitter was never meant for diplomacy. Saudi Arabia forwarded the tweet to every Muslim nation including the picture of Mohammed followed by a steaming dog turd.

After one thing led to another most people called the limited nuclear exchange that cost 29 million lives WW III, other people called it the emoticon war.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:22 AM

I just had a no good very bad terribly horrible dream. President Trump as of Jan. 24 2017 had still not finished establishing his cabinet so he was running executive branch communications mostly via Twitter. Without having named the Secretary of State, Defense or Attorney General embarrassing delays were mounting still a few appointments were made such as;

Lance Armstrong   Ambassador to France
Carl Icahn       Dept. Treasury
Martin Skhreli   Dept. Weights and Measures
Daniel H Mudd    Fannie Mae
Bernard Madoff   SEC
Chris Christy    Ambassador to Bangladesh
Rush Limbaugh    FCC
Steve Wynn       FAA
George Zimmerman HUD
Bob Jones       UN Ambassador      
Wayne La Pierre Education Dept.
Joe Arpaio       Federal Corrections
Ivanka Trump    Chief of Staff
Cliven Bundy    Dept. Interior
David Koch       Minister of Propaganda
James Inhoff    Science advisor

Responding to a segment on the news show 60 minutes, Donald decided to send out a twitter declaring who could get an exception to the Muslim ban. Perhaps owing to enthusiasm Donald included a colored emoticon of an Arab and what he thought was the dome of a Mosque for the Saudi Ambassador.

Despite being new and improved Twitter was never meant for diplomacy. Saudi Arabia forwarded the tweet to every Muslim nation including the picture of Mohammed followed by a steaming dog turd.

After one thing led to another most people called the limited nuclear exchange that cost 29 million lives WW III, other people called it the emoticon war.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 07:21 AM

Sorry keboroxu, It appears I have made a record 3 errors in one inning.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 01:47 PM

With all due respect, that post would be at home -- maybe more so -- in the "He's in the way of ME" a/k/a "hot mess of a thread" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM

Dean / frogprince, many thanks, deeply appreciated.

I have done some wicked, hurtful, despicable, cruel things in life, with irreversible consequences, and I feel the need to be big enough to face and confront my accountability, to be reconciled with my conscience. And this is where I encounter the part of me that does not want to grow up and be responsible, that would rather stay defensive and hold onto the hard grudging attitude. It seems that the peaceable way through this, is to maintain and support my own awareness of this inner conflict, and, instead of resisting or even pushing further, to breathe through the tension and the hurt and to stay present, while letting a grace greater than my own forces do what such grace has the power to do. This is sufficient effort to keep me awake at night, and yet it has to be done -- at least, it has to be attempted, in something like good faith that there is a way through. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Andrez
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:16 PM

Just reflecting on the post above K and get what you are saying….. don't need any more details there. That said, I'd like to share for what its worth a small Haiku once written for me by a long since ex-girlfriend. If it makes some connection, thats fine. If not thats fine too.

Hush!
Don't let your word song
Drown the symphony of your being.


Thanks for your sharing in this thread anyway.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 03:45 PM

"Going Postal" by Terry Pratchett was a recent read for me, and a lot of you know your Discworld and your Pratchett books very well, better than I know them (it was you folks, after all, who introduced me to Pratchett in the first place).

I see a lot of myself in "Moist Von Lipwig." This pleases me very little. It makes me feel like something that crawled out from under a rock. Oh, do squash me altogether and put me out of my misery already.

It is not difficult to connect this to the original post on this thread. A mind that changes, a point of view that changes, with the prevailing wind, is one adaptation to growing up in a household that was a sort of verbal combat zone. It is a non-violent way of coping with something unmanageable. Non-violent it was intended to be, and yet I have done irreversible wrongs because I acted from a place without a moral or ethical center; people have gotten harmed and hurt. This is very hard to breathe through, but I must do.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 01:06 PM

Humor does something to soothe and relax me, so the more Terry Pratchett makes me laugh at my own shortcomings, the better. Humor releases the hold I have on my breath, trying not to break anything. Humor puts my desires and my dreams in their proper place, an antidote to the disturbed condition in which I prefer my desires and my dreams to what is real and authentic. Humor broadens and lightens a world of depression which is narrow, heavy, and dark. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 01:48 PM

The Cat doesn't change nearly as much as some people think. It goes through stormy patches every now and then, with a few pests messing up the place, but there's a kind of cycle to these things.

Some people who provided a great quality to the place have drifted away, or in some cases died - I think especially of people like Rick Fielding, and katlaughing and Catspaw - and I miss them. But the Cat always comes back, and long may it do so.

Anonymous guests, I don't miss. One change might be worth thinking of, if there really are people who don't want to register because they are scared of getting nasty PMs - maybe there should be an option to opt out of getting PMs. But I can't say I've had a problem, and I've been coming here on and off for many years, and got in a good few heated arguments. (Though I don't think I've ever been abusive and hope I never will.)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 03:38 PM

keberoxu, It seems you were very damaged when young by a toxic and abusive environment at home. Believe me, I can totally relate to that, and understand completely how much such a beginning damages much of one's inner being. Your self-defence mechanisms which you developed then are very hard to dismantle. And they do indeed cause one to act as an adult in strange and sometimes even immoral ways.

I do hope you don't spend too long blaming yourself or going over and over your deeds. None of what you suffered was your fault. And you have survived in spite of it; you seem to me to be wonderfully aware and thoughtful, not to mention brave in your attempts to come to terms with it all.
I just wanted to post on here in the hope of sending you some encouragement and good wishes. I have found that there are many lovely people in the world, and that peace can be found when one reaches out to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 08:38 PM

I don't have anything new or different to offer today. Thanks everyone for listening and responding. Stay safe during the holiday weekend foolishness.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 02:15 PM

Just don't do UNSAFE foolish things over the holiday! : )

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 02:29 PM

Agreed, frogprince. Be careful out there, everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 05:01 PM

Sometimes, the body is wiser than the emotions and the mind, and speaks more directly, when I ask myself, "where am I?"

I find that my body's posture has changed for the activity of dream sleep, literally so. It used to be that the only way to sleep soundly enough to get to the dream state, was to turn onto my stomach, but with my shoulders turned to the side, both arms to one side curled up protectively near the face, and the legs in a sort of curled crouch. I think "protective" is the key word there. This obtained, every night, at the beginning of this calendar year, and much of the spring.

Now, when I awake from dream sleep, I find myself on my back, with my legs straight, my arms somewhere near my shoulders with the chest opened out, and my head at an angle where the air flow is calm and free.

Mind you, my dreams are batshit crazy, more often than not, like all the trash getting cleared out or something. But it is important to note how I wake up from them. I believe my body is trying to tell me that I feel safer on the inside than I used to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 05:49 PM

Thanks, Janie, for the PM: it is kind and sweet of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Aug 16 - 08:16 PM

The rage is moving to the surface. I dread a volcanic eruption. Trying to encourage, within, an openness to letting go gradually and easily. Of course it is tedious to let things release a little at a time, but it is a lot less violent that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 04:35 PM

What's odd is that the closer the rage comes to the surface, the touchier I am not only about expressing it, but also about listening to others vent. Sensitivity should not be difficult to interpret; but when layers of defenses are in place, they complicate everything.

There was something else to say and it just went poof! in my mind. Never mind, it always comes back eventually....but if I tense myself up concentrating on finding it, that is the surest way to shut it down and block it off. So, better let go for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 04:52 PM

keberoxu, you sound very poorly and stressed. I'm so sorry you're struggling like this. What do you think might happen if this rage did actually erupt? Would it cause some sort of crisis?
I'm wondering if you have found any sort of calming medication helps at these times. Maybe a visit to your doctor might provide you with advice and help?
Look after yourself.
Eliza

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 05:06 PM

Softly, softly, Eliza! Your concern is very much appreciated.

My temper, though, is not the fiery sort, however it feels on the inside. The worst that I dread, in truth, is the way that my anger turns back on itself inside of me, so I am thinking more in terms of my body suddenly expressing itself in symptoms of illness. I don't do the obvious pathologies that are so notorious, like starving, binging/purging, cutting, and so on. Never needed hospitalization for mental issues -- I get that question often enough, the answer is negative.

No, the bigger recurring dilemma for me is that my behavior is like somebody under observation/surveillance, any spontaneous self-expression is pretty much squashed and shut down. This of course is unhealthy, even if it helps me cope in the short run. Deep sigh.

Anyway, thanks for your concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Aug 16 - 05:29 PM

I hope you didn't think I was implying that you have mental health problems keberoxu. It's just that your distress comes across in your posts, and I was musing about what might help you.
I think the fact you suppress any spontaneous self-expression is a result of being over-controlled as a child (I think you've mentioned this)
Such ingrained behaviours are very hard to modify, but as you say, the result is an inner anger which simmers away and causes reactions in physical health. Is there any way you could let out all this in a safe environment? Vigorous sport, the gym, writing down your pain in poetry or autobiographical notes for example? It would be like lifting the lid off the pot for a bit and letting the steam out!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:14 PM

I don't know a soul who has not suffered.
Not that I'm good at it but I hear the trick is to not mind that it hurts.

What if there is a person who is conditioned to feel embarrassed far too often. Every time they feel a cringe worthy moment they react to it with a self rage.

What if they instead react with a 'so what no body's perfect'?

That seems like a realistic way to relax and forgive one's self.

A person without a self conscious or empathy is a social psychopath who is not inherently dangerous , they just don't care enough to have a cringe worthy moment. They would think that others are just pawns to manipulate.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:45 PM

It's true that nearly everybody has known suffering and distress. But sometimes such feelings start to dominate one's life and can't easily be dealt with by trying not to mind.
However, as an oldie, I can say that age brings a certain acceptance. You learn to live with yourself and to be kind about your own shortcomings. Also, I've found that turning one's thoughts towards others and their difficulties is a tremendous way to heal. If one has experience of suffering, one is in a good position to support and help other people in their low moments.
I have a dear friend who is a Samaritan, and she tells me many of her fellow volunteers have been through very bad times, and can empathise well with callers because of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Aug 16 - 05:57 PM

Coming to terms with inner conflict includes accepting the possibility that some parts of me will always be in conflict with each other. So I have to regard myself with a sense of responsibility, as in: There is a part of me that is not to be denied, and at the same time, that part of me is not to be trusted. I have to be my own protective parent in that respect. This is becoming a practice that must be applied several times a day, every day.

Subject: RE: BS: 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 04:41 PM

It was in a post on this thread, looks like the date was 21 April 2016, when I referred to the non-music threads at Mudcat which attract argumentative posts in "bristling, growling clumps" and demonstrate dogpack-behavior fighting for dominance in some debate-minded Mudcat members. That continues as ever, you don't have to look far in the non-music section to find threads dominated by groups of posts that answer to that description.

I want to unburden myself regarding my heartache, and I must proceed with great care since it concerns a specific Mudcat member who has only my best wishes and respectful regards. Therefore, there are questions about this member, one of the sources of consistent argument/debate in non-music threads, which I must decline to answer. No, I am not going to say whether this Mudcat member has a concealing name, like mine, or has a member-name corresponding to her/his real name. No, I am not going to specify whether this member's position concerns government or economics or religion or arms-trafficking or ethnicityslashimmigration or what have you. It would expose too much to do so, and I refuse to subject this fellow Mudcatter to that level of scrutiny.

After all, when this fellow member and I exchanged posts -- not Private Messages, mind you, posts -- on a thread in the non-music section, the topic was nowhere near that list of inflammatory subjects in the previous paragraph. No, the topic, being non-music, concerned literature, books, and adaptations to the screen, both cinematic and television/radio broadcasts. So while we were not discussing music, we were discussing art and performance, of a specialty about which I am largely ignorant and about which this other Mudcat member know a great deal indeed.

With the individual who shared experience, literacy, study, appreciation, and a wry wit, I would be pleased -- no, honored -- to pass the time; I would consider the person good company, and I would be happy to continue the conversation. Of course, we have never seen each other face to face, nor heard each other's voices.

But I assure you, were I to identify the person with nothing more than the member name to the rest of the people reading this thread, your collective responses would be knee-jerk, emotional, polarizing, defensive. Maybe there are some other members here who know, and cherish, the non-controversial side of this Mudcat member, but I have no idea which ones you are or how to connect with you.

Yes, I know that this particular leopard will not change her/his spots any time soon. It isn't a question of changing the behaviors of this other person. I just feel sad and sorry that there is a whole lyric and literature loving side to this person, wholly non-controversial and having many things in common with the rest of the membership, and that side of that individual is so scarcely available for me, or the rest of us, to respond to. I feel very badly about it, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 05:46 PM

There is a further sign that my armor and my defenses are becoming more moderate and less protective. Earlier post updates have noted bodily changes during sleep, a shift in sleep positions and how the shift suggests a progress from highly defensive to more relaxed.

Little was noted in past posts about dreams, and for at least one unhappy reason. At my current level of clinical depression, my dream-sleep activity has been seriously interfered with, and the interference has shown up in several specific ways. For a period of months, my nightly dream-sleep was as minimal as could be, suggesting a state of hyper-vigilance. Literally there was precious little dreaming, little time given to dreams, regardless of scheduled bed-time or other sleep hygiene. Then there was a period of months during which the nightly dreaming was barely available for recall; I could sense from my maintained health that I was getting sleep, and having dreams, but every conscious effort to recall my dreams met with heavy resistance. This after having previously kept a dream journal for years, so it isn't as if I've never practiced the discipline of recalling dreams and recording them.

Late this morning -- today my schedule permitted me to sleep in a little -- I woke from dreams, as often happens, and felt like my quantity and quality of dream activity was back to where it used to be when I recorded my dreams in a written journal. My recall isn't as honed as it was back in the day, and it would take time and practice to get the discipline and focus back to that level. But with the restoration of dream activity, and the level of sleep that permits dreaming, I now feel healthier inside than I have done in -- this is sobering to admit -- a few years now.

I am almost superstitious to confide this, lest lightning should strike. But I think my mental health must be more robust than it was at the beginning of this year. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 03:55 AM

I have great faith in good,restorative sleep keberoxu. And I agree, it's a good sign that you now dream, and recall your dreams, in the way you used to.
I'm really glad that you feel your mental health is improving now.
Hope it continues!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 03:50 PM

Hey don't quote me like I'm DEAD-- busy elsewhere-- but what a great item to remember, keb.

What policy change-- Linkie pls?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 03:56 PM

PS (just pm me the link and indicate here that you have)

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 05:20 PM

Wysiwyg, you probably already know about the change, as it has been in effect for several months.

Max decided that the non-music threads, already segregated below-the-line or BS, from now on may be created, or posted to, by members only. People who post as "GUEST" may post only on music threads "above-the-line."

This change regarding Mudcat Guests resulted from a period during the early New Year when there was a lot of hot air and commotion on Mudcat threads. It went on and on, and finally Max had had enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 09:35 PM

I don't have anything new and exciting to report, much less words of wisdom. Starting the thread in the beginning felt like sticking my neck out. I'm just grateful nobody sliced my head off. Especially grateful for the posts in this thread in which people took the time to think, reflect, and be introspective and considerate.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Andrez
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 01:12 AM

As we are equally grateful for your (understandably not easy) thoughtful sharing of inner thoughts and being on the path to health and healing.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 11:48 AM

Onward and upward : )

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 12:27 PM

This thread started out because of my response to the turmoil in the BS section of the forum.
Only very recently, a series of threads came to my attention: non-music and, as it happens, non-debate. The old-timers know about them. For months I had ignored them. Out of boredom or something, I clicked on one.
It was startling to glance at the posts on the thread and immediately get the feel of the emotions and attitudes. There are long-time Mudcat members there, and great familiarity. I'm not going to blow their cover....anyway, if this is a secret, it is one hiding in plain sight.

They won't appreciate my feelings about their ongoing conversation. I felt like an outsider. But that is as it ought to be, I guess. After all, I am an outsider really, and ought to stay that way. So better not to give in to indiscretion.

It's just that the experience was a real eye-opener.
It reminded me, though, that sometimes I like solitude. A sense of privacy even while participating in community. It was a big deal for me to post the earliest posts on this thread, precisely because I'm not that eager to "share." That's all for this post.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:38 PM

I couldn't scare up the posting that explains the curious use of "triage" in the subject line. What is it doing there? In my book, triage has to do with the rational allocation of medical care. I suppose "where am I" likewise belongs to some special jargon.

As to the discussion, I once again marvel at whatever guardian angel it is that has protected me from *all* the bad manners referred to.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:55 PM

Well, Joe F., since you asked nicely:
I went back to the early part of the thread to hunt out my quote. As explained earlier, I liked somebody else's use of the word triage, so I quoted them.

The quote is in Message_ID=3785367 with the words, Community, It has its own triage built in.

Your skin must be thicker than mine. The relatives, to whom earlier posts on this thread refer, used to declare to me that I was too thin-skinned.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Dec 16 - 03:23 PM

Today I rejoice in the non-music thread in which a frequent Mudcat poster courteously invites everybody who participates in dog-pack behavior patterns -- threads with posts that collect in what I have called "bristling, growling clumps," skirmishes over territorial questions, verbal jostling for dominance within the pack, threatening to leave and then jumping right back in the thick of it, and so on and so forth -- to remove their pack-dog masks and get acquainted with each other as human souls for a change. Including a watchdog or two, bless their cotton socks. A breath of fresh air. Happy to be here to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Dec 16 - 05:19 PM

Hi Keb. Love to know you on Facebook. PM for details if desired.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 11:04 AM

by Robert Francis:   SUMMONS

Keep me from going to sleep too soon.
Or if I go to sleep too soon
Come wake me up. Come any hour
Of night. Come whistling up the road.
Stomp on the porch. Bang on the door.
Make me get out of bed and come
And let you in and light a light.
Tell me the northern lights are on
And make me look. Or tell me clouds
Are doing something to the moon
They never did before, and show me.
See that I see. Talk to me till
I'm half as wide awake as you
And start to dress, wondering why
I ever went to bed at all.
Tell me the walking is superb.
Not only tell me but persuade me.
You know I'm not too hard persuaded.

© -- sorry, can't find the date

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Joe_F
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 06:50 PM

keberoxu: Thank you for your efforts, but I am more baffled than ever. Perhaps it is my ignorance that is protecting me from the rudeness alluded to. All the better!

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 08:16 PM

The bad manners and rudeness referred to in earlier posts, it should be clear, are pretty much outside of this thread, although there were some earlier posts on this thread with catty bristling, hissing, and baring of retractable claws. Shortlived on this thread, though. The verbal aggression we talk about here, these are observations of posts on other threads mostly.

You can't be unaware that before April, the BS/Non-music section of the forum was adjusted so that "GUEST"s could no longer post there, the only permitted posts in BS/Non-music henceforth come from logged-in Mudcat members. The verbal aggression we lament here caused this adjustment to be made in the first place.

My original post referred directly to this change of policy.

Looking, through the Mudcat link features, at Joe F's own previous posts, there can be seen threads where this kind of unreasonable verbal outburst occurred with regularity: consider the "Winston Churchill Thieving Cheapskate" thread. I don't mean Joe F made those rude posts, I mean he posted to threads that had such posts in them.
Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 01:37 PM

More than one Mudcat member has posted to this thread, asking me what I meant by putting the word Triage in the thread title.

That's a good point. In more than one posted response, I have offered my official explanation, which is fine as far as it goes, no need to retract it: it stands.

Besides that, however, it could be asked: did some subconscious prompting nudge me to choose a word like "Triage" which is a strong word to some people?

yes, I am a civilian, and also I am not in the health/medicine profession; so "triage" is honestly outside my limited areas of expertise. My understanding of triage may in fact be part mis-understanding.

That said, I associate "triage" with two things:
a crisis situation in which first responders must make rational choices about priorities.
a context in which a chain of command enforces a policy that imposes order upon, shall we say, disorder.

I guess that the way that Max, here at Mudcat, had to change posting access to non-music/BS threads brought to mind a context of disorder and distress, and the imperative to impose order by enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 05:29 PM

Oh, I almost forgot.
I don't do Facebook.
It's not personal -- just not my lifestyle. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 06:17 PM

I'm reading a strong need for community. Consider, just consider some activity that may include some kind of community participation. Maybe it requires participation or not but in the real world you have to make plans first. The virtual digital world to me can provide instant gratification with real feelings and soul food but the corporeal world has even greater rewards on occasion.

You don't have to change anything else, just add on some communities you think you might like.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 02:00 PM

This thread has come full circle. The moderators may close the thread if they care to.

The thread started right after the policy change at the Mudcat Cafe, which restricted BS-section posts to Mudcat members; guests, not logged in to their Mudcat member accounts, may no longer post to thread in the non-music/BS section, only to music threads "above the line."

One long-time, and universally welcomed and appreciated, Mudcat "lurker"/guest responded to the change by becoming a Mudcat member, with member-name and all, so as to continue exchanging posts on BS threads at Mudcat. I certainly was happy when this happened. This was right about the same time that this thread was started.

Now that same beloved individual has said Goodbye to the BS section altogether, probably to Mudcat as a whole, for exactly the kind of carryings-on over which we all felt helpless and frustrated in the first place. No one made this member leave, and it was not this member who misbehaved. The place is diminished without them.

Guess I'll give Mudcat more time. But now that this thread has come full circle, I will let the thread go, and the moderators may close it. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:29 PM

You could easily have "let the thread go" by refraining from posting to it after a gap of eght months during which it was pretty well forgotten. I honestly can't see the point of your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:34 PM

Touche/

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Joe_F
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 09:07 PM

keboroxu: I cannot find the "Winston Churchill thieving cheapskate" thread. Has it been deleted in the meantime? Is there a censorship app that protects me against Mudcat rudeness?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 11:42 AM

In the OP I asked where am I.
Since it was a Mudcat thread, obviously,
the question where am I was relevant to
where am I at Mudcat.

It has taken me several years
and lots of hard feelings on the part of
those Mudcat members who took offense at my posts.
They knew where I was, from the beginning, I guess.
I only just got to it now.

And the answer, as regards Mudcat, is simple:
I am outside the circle, that is where I am.
That is how I understand circles, anyhow.
They form a boundary which includes and excludes;
Included Mudcat members are inside the circle,
and the other Mudcat members are outside the circle.
Circles, for some people, are ingrained in their perspectives and attitudes, in their cultures,
and are diligently practiced in their routine life.
These people find it second nature
to include some and exclude the rest.

Well, I am a number of things,
but I am not one of the circle people,
as my perspective and experience are different.
Not better, not nobler, not more proper, nor the inverse --
simply different.

Maybe it is because I was raised in a house next to
two pairs of railroad tracks, with freight trains routinely going past,
that I personally favor parallel lines.
I especially favor parallel tracks, for some reason.
I tend to look for parallels, observe parallels, think in parallels,
build case arguments in parallels.
And whenever I encounter people who are committed to circles,
I have options whether or not to say what I honestly believe
or to hold my tongue so as not to give offense,
but the one thing I am not constituted to do, I find,
is to respect the boundary of the circle.
I just act like the freight train, I confess,
and I steam-roll right in and out of the circle
as though the circle, the boundary, did not even exist.

I could spend, and have spent, no small amount of time
considering questions like
"but keberoxu must be well aware that the circle is there,
and that this is a boundary that one does not cross without giving offense to somebody..."
the questions are valid, after all.
Through repeated trial and error, at the expense of others,
I do indeed begin to sense how others perceive themselves,
how others perceive their world and existence,
how others perceive me, the outsider.

It still leaves me outside the circle.
More to the point, I would do well never again
to approach the darned circle
because someone would take my very approach personally.
So I had better leave well enough alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 11:59 AM

Hmmm. Not sure how to respond to this.

Are you having a good day today, keb? I'm getting an impression of No. I'm sorry if that's the case.

I am a long-time contributor, but there are many topics I never comment on because I know that my input would not be welcome. Politics, for example, is usually a no-go area for me except in the rare case of a thread on Canadian politics. When I stay out, I do so because I have no dog in the fight, or because I know the other participants in the thread are chewing on an issue that they have wrangled over many times in the past without resolution.

Although they may be entirely notional, some of the testier circles at Mudcat are like family fights -- their debates have been going on since the year dot, and they don't want to be challenged. No good can come of sticking an oar in.

Instead, I prefer topics everyone can chip in on without hard feelings, such as house-cleaning, cats and food. And practising tunes.

How's your string ensemble doing? Do you have a new fiddle yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 12:02 PM

Fiddle player, I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 12:19 PM

Derrida, in particular in Structure, Sign, and Play in the Discourse of the Human Sciences discussed the Center, and scholars riffed on that to discuss writing back to the center. Those voices outside, excluded or self-isolated, who respond to the center. Post-colonial theory, travel writing, feminist theory, American Indian writers, Asian, Hispanic, and African American scholars all feature some aspect of this non-mainstream voice speaking back to the mainstream. One American Indian author called it "Writing in the Enemies Words."

That said, there has also been a lot of deliberate carefully-worded shit-stirring that is easily recognizable and consequently treated as trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 12:20 PM

Gee, that was quick!

No, no change at this point;
we are still the Trout Trio,
we are no longer a Quartet and we never were a Quintet to begin with.

No, it's just that this month I received a "shame on you".
You won't find it in the posts, it was a PM.
And what is sad about it is that
I'm not ashamed. I ought to feel ashamed, and yet I don't.
I just feel resignation and sadness.
An agreement to disagree is one thing, but this is worse,
it's an acceptance of a failure to communicate.
I accept that someone is intensely offended by my words,
and I ought to stand corrected ...
never never say that again ...

what is the use?

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 12:42 PM

No shame on you, k, shame on the would-be shamers.

I have to add that I have no idea what policy change this thread was originally about. I also admit that I read the OP then skipped down to the posts resurrecting the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 02:35 PM

We have all had, are having or will have the same basic feelings of suffering. We all feel lonliness. We are all creatures of habit. We are all an amalgam of our handicaps and talents.

Religions know and pander to these sufferings. So do shrinks.
Making a habit of psychoanalysis has apparantly worked for Woody Allen. He's done it for 50+ years. But it doesn't cure or help everybody even if everyone could afford it.

A mental clockwise feedback loop can magnify lonliness or habits or feelings of inadaquacy. A counter clockwise feedback loop can also decrease these feelings.

In abnormal psychology involving brain or endocrine chemical problems, the use of medicine is still partly guesswork. I bet we all privately laugh at people who try to portray themselves as all talent without handicaps. If you don't - learn how. There are great people out there and you will find they are the humble ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 05:20 PM

"Circles, for some people, are ingrained in their perspectives and attitudes, in their cultures,
and are diligently practiced in their routine life.
These people find it second nature
to include some and exclude the rest. Circles, for some people, are ingrained in their perspectives and attitudes, in their cultures,
and are diligently practiced in their routine life.
These people find it second nature
to include some and exclude the rest."

and you begin by defining yourself as 'outside the circle'... specifically, the Mudcat circle. Kind of a self-fulfilling hypothesis.

*shrug* I have no idea whether I am in or out, but I just don't even do the exercise to work it out.
I have read your posts off & on for years, and never had any problems with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 06:02 PM

I was invited here so I gave it a try despite dyslexia difficulties. After several years I stopped careing about what anyone else thought.
Then when I saw more habit in charge than value I stopped for many years. I was invited back. As long as I still get hate PM's I know I must be expressing my own independant thought and not lying to please other people. Right now I am lazily stuck at home and become more easily bored but if I undertake any one of three projects I will curtail these frequent posting of brain droppings.
If you wonder if you are in some sort of circle I bet you are the only one who cared about it. Its an illusion.
Woody said he would never be a member of any organiation that would stoop so low as to accept his membership. All memberships require some sort of sacrifice. If its worth the seeds or eggs you get from it, more power to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 06:33 PM

"It has taken me several years
and lots of hard feelings on the part of
those Mudcat members who took offense at my posts."

With all respect, honestly. Who are these guys who "take offence"? I haven't detected any but maybe I'm not sensitive enough and I haven't a clue as to what vicious people say to you in PMs (don't allow that to happen is my advice: you really don't have to, and it definitely is never me). I don't read approximately 98% of your posts, but don't take offence at that: I don't read 99.569% of the posts here anyway. I imagine that 99.052% of people see a post from me and quickly move on without reading it. Grand. If for one second I thought I was inside some kind of a "Mudcat circle" I'd be out of here like a shot. I am outside the tent pissing in. Mudcat is two dimensions in a world of three. Keep your feet rooted in the real world and believe, as I do, that Mudcat is a wonderful place but not the whole place.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Aug 20 - 06:54 PM

I think the "outside of the circle" thing is called a "victim complex". I'm not saying that's anyone here, and I don't think it's usually a permanent state, but we're all capable of it. It's a failing of mine that I react badly to folks I think are moving through that state. Also, people who seem to need an inordinate amount of attention. But the main thing is that I have to figure out how to deal with my reactions in a way that doesn't make me crankier than I typically am. You know - that little voice in your head that says "Just let it go. Walk away." Sometime, it's about what I've mentioned here, and sometimes, it's because someone doesn't know how to use apostrophes, but in the end, it's not about the person doing that stuff, it's about how we let it affect us.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Aug 20 - 03:03 PM

Steve Shaw, you and I are not always in agreement,
but this time we agree fully.

Thank you.
Your post has lightened the weight on my heavy heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Triage, or 'where am I'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 12:16 AM

Groucho Marx, not Woody Guthrie, wouldn't join a club that would have him as a member.