BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:45 AM

So provide a link to your quote "although the report's author has said the student body has a "clear cultural problem" around the topic"

Simple enough, even for you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

And actually bobad's "new antisemitism" link, which is to a wiki entry, makes quite an interesting read. It's tempting to do that evangelist/Keith thing and pick out the bits that suit, but that isn't me. It's a long read which, more or less neutrally, assesses both sides of the argument. In one place the point is made that the ardent supporters of the broader definition of antisemitism are (with an irony that goes above their heads - my observation) actually antisemitic themselves, as Jim states. As for me, I'll stick with my tenet that antisemitism can only be that if it is an attack on Jews because they are Jews. It's perfectly possible to look at any attack on Israel/the Jewish state/the Israeli regime, as well as attacks on Jews as an ethnic or religious group, including concepts such as the apartheid state and comparisons with Nazism, through that lens. You've gotta be honest about it, that's all. You can say something that's bloody stupid and antisemitic, you can say something that's just bloody stupid, or you can make fair criticism. Most of the remarks I've seen attributed to members of the Labour Party that were allegedly antisemitic fell into the middle category in my view.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

Steve,
You didn't know that Labour List wasn't Labour, did you, Keith? 😂 As a matter of fact, the party distanced itself from Labour List years ago. You would know about these things if you subscribed, as I do.

Yes I did know, but it is still basically the house journal.

😂 As a matter of fact, the party distanced itself from Labour List years ago.

Can you support your assertion for once Steve?

Rag,
Professor provide a link to the report you cited then we will be able to see for ourselves who the student body is.

Labour for some reason decided not to publish the report Rag, but the enquiry was into OULC not the entire OU!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:25 AM

Well I could watch you making a cup of tea then come up with eleven recommendations for immediate and sustained action that I think would improve your tea, but I wouldn't mind betting that your tea tastes pretty good already, bereft of serious problems. And that could be the last time today I say anything nice to you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:24 AM

I know that the paper was referring to the OULC which the report said does not have an institutional issue of anti-Semitism.

However the professor quoted a section that said "although the student body has a "clear cultural problem" around the topic"

Now when I and others went to University the student body referred to all the students at that University not merely a section of that student body.

Thus I would suggest that this statement therefore refers to Oxford University as a whole.

The professor is well known for his selective "cut an pastes" and anything he cites requires to be checked thoroughly.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM

Executive Summary

I was asked by the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party to examine the allegations of antisemitism that arose surrounding Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) after the resignation of a former co-Chair.

This was followed by a number of allegations of incidents of antisemitism against members of the Labour Party, including against one Member of Parliament and a member of the National Executive Committee.

I was also made aware that there was at least one case of serious false allegations of antisemitism which was reported to the police.

The context of the wider allegations means that I had to consider the matters of Oxford University Labour Club in that broader landscape. My recommendations will have a positive impact, not only on OULC, but on Labour clubs and the Labour Party more generally.

I do not believe that that there is institutional antisemitism within OULC. Difficulties however, face OULC which must be addressed to ensure a safe space for all Labour students to debate and campaign around the great ideas of our movement.

It is not possible to simply make recommendations about the OULC without considering how our Party itself responds to these events. I am therefore, today making recommendations about how Labour tackles antisemitism to minimise the chance of any repetition of incidents such as those described at OULC. I am making eleven recommendations for immediate and sustained action. In addition, I am advising the second, wider inquiry led by Shami Chakrabarti of a further seven issues which she may wish to consider.

So the Inquiry found that anti-Semitism was not institutionalised within the Party - that does not mean that there was no serious problem - otherwise why should there be "eleven recommendations for immediate and sustained action" - Take note of that IMMEDIATE and SUSTAINED ACTION - And you clowns say that there was no serious problem??? . Why should Baroness Royall feel that as a result of her Inquiry she should advise Shami Chakrabarti of "a further SEVEN ISSUES which she may wish to consider.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 03:40 AM

"Have you seen anyone about your obsessiveness, I hear they have medication for it now?"
The only obsessiveness here is from those who, after accusations of Antisemitism turning out to be a damp squib, continue to claim that The Labour Party is riddled with Anti-semites - notably, all supporters of Israeli terrorism.
They refuse to provide evidence of their claims in terms of actual examples, they refuse to acknowledge the fact that Antisemitism is basically a feature of right-wing politics and has proved to be so - six million times over within my lifespan.
None of them with acknowledge the links between these accusations and the move to boycott Israeli goods in protest to the mass murder that has taken place.
These people are men on a mission - obsessives, and their own spineless behaviour in branding everyone who disagrees with them is fully in line with Israeli claims that all criticism of Israeli policy is Antisemitic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 03:32 AM

Baroness Royall OULC Inquiry

Try this one Shaw, certainly came up OK in the test, then compare the opening two paragraphs to those quoted in my earlier mail.

What is the matter Shaw? Can't you or Raggy actually search for information? Just enter the title of the link above into the search engine of your choice and you could have found it for yourself.

By the bye Shaw I did not have to make any "points" all I had to do was demonstrate quite clearly that Baroness Royall's Inquiry was into the Oxford University Labour Club and not the student body of Oxford University in general - something Raggy was rather lamely trying to claim. So merely pointing out yet another example of Raggy being factually in error.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 16 - 03:20 AM

No reference to the wider student body in that attachment, a wider student body in toto which I suggested was the University of Oxford including the Bullingdon Club.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:28 PM

Have you seen anyone about your obsessiveness, I hear they have medication for it now?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:15 PM

Have another ten pints. It might just improve your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:07 PM

[regressive] in my previous post was mis-placed, it should have read:

that's exactly the kind of rubbish that has been comprehensively debunked in this thread

On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, [regressive] leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:03 PM

that's exactly the kind of rubbish that has been comprehensively debunked in this thread

On the [regressive] left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:50 PM

Yes, bobad, well that's exactly the kind of rubbish that has been comprehensively debunked in this thread. Do keep up. To adhere to that makes you a rabid antisemite and a racist (which, of course, you are, as well as being a two-timing cheat, a coward, a liar and, as your previous post reveals, illiterate to boot). You should heed the old saying. Better that everyone merely thinks you're an idiot than open your mouth and prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:39 PM

It's about attacking Jews because they are Jews

See: The New Anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:31 PM

Awful Teribus post. No points made. Link not clickable.

Really, Teribus, aka Johnny-come-lately in the thread, do take the time to read the bloody thing before wading in. Everything you've said so far has been done to death. You have no further angles to put on it, none at all. You are a Keith clone. Just try thinking for yourself for once instead of hitching your wagon to a thoroughly dead horse. Even you are not stupid enough to fail to understand that antisemitism has nothing to do with attacking a country that isn't even three-quarters Jewish. It's about attacking Jews because they are Jews. Do you accept that or not? If you do (and if you don't you're as big a clown as Keith), then try to agree without spin and without dishonesty that it is not possible to make blanket accusations against Labour. Names must be named. You won't do it, Keith won't do it, the enquiries won't do it. Why do you suppose names are NOT being named? Go on, have a guess. But don't forget the lawyers...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:46 PM

All in the title of the Report Raggy:

Baroness Royall Inquiry Oxford University Labour Club

Opening two paragraphs of the Executive Summary:

Executive Summary

I was asked by the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party to examine the allegations of antisemitism that arose surrounding Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) after the resignation of a former co-Chair.

This was followed by a number of allegations of incidents of antisemitism against members of the Labour Party including against one Member of Parliament and a member of the National Executive Committee.

Any doubts Raggy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:21 PM

Professor provide a link to the report you cited then we will be able to see for ourselves who the student body is.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

Lovely sentence. Translator's note, please? 😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM

Numbers - crimes- punishment ???

It is a crime of moral failure the punishment of which is shaming by public exposure as should be happening in the Labour party had they the courage to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 02:25 PM

You didn't know that Labour List wasn't Labour, did you, Keith? 😂 As a matter of fact, the party distanced itself from Labour List years ago. You would know about these things if you subscribed, as I do. Sussed again, Keith. As ever. And that's twice now that you've smeared Shami Chakrabarti by suggesting that she's fishing for a peerage. Completely unjustified, completely scurrilous, so typical of you. You have no reason to doubt her integrity whatsoever. In that regard she drops hot shit over the right-wing scumbags who you support. You really are the most disreputable smear-monger on this forum by a country mile. Disgraceful behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 01:52 PM

"The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue.""
For Christs sake Keith - if a party is accused of antisemitism it is serious whether they are guilty or not - they investigated it itd found there was no signfnifficant proble
m - ir ceased to be serious
If you have any evidence that there was major problem, apart from your now deliberately misinterpreting a fact - present it.
"Geddit"
When yo stop stupidly lying and produce some numbers
Whjo has said there is a lrge number
Where have they said it
Why haven't they been reprimanded or expelled - or have they?
You are a very stupid, very dishonest man, you really are
Numbers - crimes- punishment ???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 01:07 PM

Jim,
they(NEC) took the problem seriously, they examined it and fornfd no serious problem

NO.
They were quite clear that there was a serious issue with antisemitism within Labour.
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse."

Which bit of that do you not understand Jim?

"Baroness Jan Royall, who has conducted two recent investigations into specific allegations of anti-Semitism,"

"Chakrabarti, who will be chairing a wider ranging inquiry looking at anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. "

"anti-semitism within the Labour Party. The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Get it Jim?
The seriousness of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party is recognised by the entire NEC!
When will you recognise it?
You do not need numbers or names!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 12:27 PM

"Guardian on Chakrabarti,"
Then no information on how many or the nature of the "antisemitism" then?
"You have the evidence of the NEC's unequivocal statements, "
I most certainly have - they took the problem seriously, they examined it and fornfd no serious problem
If you disagree with this analysis you are free to correct ne, otherwise it stands.
It's a repeat case if the "hating Irish" - they "hated the British" but you refuse to say how they did.
You can repeat "serious" till they carry to the funny farm but, as with past arguments, it is just dishonest stonewalling.
You have obviously looked very hard for evidence thet there is a serious problem - you have found none, so there is none, so you fall back on the term "serious.
One more time If an accusation of Antisemirism is made against a major party, it doesn't matter if it is true or not - it will be treated AS A serious matter
If there has been a cover-up in ot exposing, disciplining or expelling those "large numbers" you are claiming, the Labour right and the Jewish member of the Party would be up in arms.
If there has been cover-up, the press would be having a field day
No serious Antisemitism has been found, none has been indicated either inside or outside the party.
Do not suggest that there has been some indicated in earlier reports - if it has, where is it?
You are one of the most clumsily crude, dishonest people I have ever come across.
Now - numbers - what forms did it take - who pas exposed, who was expelled - if no-one - why?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 12:16 PM

On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

Whoever wrote that has to have have been reading Mudcat posts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:55 AM

Raggytash - 28 Jul 16 - 09:11 AM

"The student body referred to is the student body of the University of Oxford"

Ehmmmm No Raggy the "Student body" being referred to is the "Oxford University Labour Club" aka (OULC) - That is after all the organisation that was under investigation - Investigation of the entire "Student Body" of Oxford University was never, ever within the remit of Baroness Royall's investigation into anti-Semitism within OULC.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:46 AM

Same Guardian writer on The Left and Jews.
It applies to own lefties rather well.

"On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

The left would call it misogynist "mansplaining" if a man talked that way to a woman. They'd be mortified if they were caught doing that to LGBT people or Muslims. But to Jews, they feel no such restraint.

So this is my plea to the left. Treat us the same way you'd treat any other minority. No better and no worse. If opposition to racism means anything, it surely means that."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:38 AM

Guardian on Chakrabarti,
"The report is a short one, light on details of specific incidents and wary of passing judgment on long-running controversies. Rather, Chakrabarti's warmth and her frequent invocations of Labour values of universalism and human rights suggest an appeal to decency, calmness and common humanity.

In one respect though, the inquiry has produced detailed and clear recommendations. Much of the document deals with internal Labour party procedures and how they can deal with the antisemitism controversy more effectively. Some may well be aghast at her rejection of lifetime bans and her proposal for a moratorium on trawls through the past statements of Labour party members.

Whether her proposals for rule changes and codes of conducts will actually be adopted or have the desired impact is open to question.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 11:33 AM

Rag,

The student body referred to is the student body of the University of Oxford, thousands of students,

No silly. The report was about the OULC, not the OU!

Jim,
You have the evidence of the NEC's unequivocal statements, and those of many senior Labour figures, as PROOF that there was a serious issue with antisemitism in Labour.
The FACT that an enquiry was set up is further PROOF.

Labour and Chakrabarti have chosen not to name or expel any of those guilty of that antisemitism. They have been criticised for that.

However much you deny it, those FACTS remain.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 09:11 AM

"This is what Labour List said about the other report, "Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) does not have an "institutional" issue of anti-Semitism, according to an internal Labour inquiry – although the report's author has said the student body has a "clear cultural problem" around the topic"

The student body referred to is the student body of the University of Oxford, thousands of students, amongst them the Bullingdon Club. Now I wonder if any of them are racists like your friend Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 07:02 AM

"No Jim. Chakrabarti found lots"
Then you will be able to indicate any reference to numbers.
There have been no expulsions, no disciplining of individuals members and no reference that there is an extensive problem in the Labour Party - on the contrary, the only example of antisemitism in all this was by one named member who was attacking Israel for its murderous policy against the Palestinians; as Israel's defence for it's war crimes is to to claim that it is anti-semitic to criticise Israel about anything, this is understandable.
This is getting #like your "Irish hatred of the British" claim - you vehemently insisted that it wqas tehre yet refused to explain how it manifested itself.
Where are your examples of lots of anti-semiites in the Labour party - how many are there, who are they and what form does their anti-semitism take?
You refuse to respond to the numbers of claims of Israel's interference in British politics - so that one's sorted.
You refuse to respond to the exampl;es of Tory bullying and racism, which makes this simply a crusade against the Labour Party and a somewhat desperate one at that
THIS IS WHAT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 06:03 AM

BBC 7 hours ago,
"This week's statement by Iain McNicol, general secretary of the Labour Party, was blunt: "There is no place for abuse of any kind in the party," he declared. "There is simply too much of it taking place and it needs to stop." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36898391

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:50 AM

Jim,
It has been found that there is no major problem of Antisemitism in the Labour Party - two enquires both came to the same conclusion.

No Jim. Chakrabarti found lots and made many recommendations to deal with it.

This is what Labour List said about the other report,
"Oxford University Labour Club (OULC) does not have an "institutional" issue of anti-Semitism, according to an internal Labour inquiry – although the report's author has said the student body has a "clear cultural problem" around the topic.

Following today's meeting of the Labour National Executive Committee, an executive summary of Baroness Royall's investigation into anti-Semitism within OULC was published, including her recommendations for the party to consider. However, there are criticisms already that the full report is not being published." (Wonder why!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM

Saying it does not make it so Rag.
You just resort to personal attack because you have nothing else.
It is as good as a white flag.

There is no racism from me, and never has been.
That is why you can not quote a single thing.
Or will you now?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM

It has been found that there is no major problem of Antisemitism in the Labour Party - two enquires both came to the same conclusion.
As it tuened out, the accusations were based on right wingers attempting to unseat Corbyn using Israeli supporters - Israel's involvement in all this is now obvious - Keith
]s two star witnesses who claimed there was a serious pronlem were both activists in the Israeli propaganda campaign.
It was treated seriously because it was a serious issue to be accused of such
Labour carried out a prompt enquiry when the accusations were made; when similar accusations were made about Islamophobia in the Tory Party, nothing was done - which of the two parties is most open in these matters (no prizes, I'm afraid).
Bobad, Teribus and Keith - speaks fro itself - three trolls sharing the same bridge.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:08 AM

You can dissemble and deny as much as you want professor, it is all written down here for all to see. The fact remains that you are a racist.

End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 05:01 AM

Page 1 of the Chakrabarti report,
"there is too much clear evidence (going back some years) of minority hateful or ignorant attitudes and
behaviours festering within a sometimes bitter incivility of discourse.
(Note, the subject is antisemitism, so that is what is being referred to )This has no place in a modern
democratic socialist party that puts equality, inclusion and human rights at its heart. Moreover, I have
heard too many Jewish voices express concern that antisemitism has not been taken seriously enough
in the Labour Party and broader Left for some years.
An occasionally toxic atmosphere is in danger of shutting down free speech within the Party rather
than facilitating it, and is understandably utilised by its opponents."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:52 AM

Rag,
What we have had reinforced is YOUR blatant RACISM.
Nasty lie. There is no racism from me, never has been and never will be.

Even Bobad acknowledges it was unacceptable in 1930's America, and here are you trying to justify it in 21st Century Britain.

So do I.
It was made very clear in that old Mudcat thread I linked to.
It was also made very clear that in UK it was becoming un-PC but had never been considered racist.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:57 PM

My dictionary says it's probably from a spanish woerd "pequeno", meaning a small child.
When I was growing up and where I was growing up, it was a word that might be used for any toddler.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 04:35 AM

Steve<

Labour List are not the Labour Party. It is an entirely independent organisation.

Yes it is. It is independent but it is written by Labour Party people for Labour Party people.
"LabourList is the leading place for news, views and debate about the centre left. Its readers and contributors come from across the labour movement and range from MPs and peers to grassroots activists.
We are supportive of but independent of the Labour Party. "

I'm going to ask you again. Name one Labour member who was explicitly found guilty of antisemitisism.

Labour won't tell us their names, but they are quite clear that they exist.
Naz Shah self confessed, and Labour List described Marc Wadsworth's outburst as "one of the oldest anti-Semitic tropes."
Tell us who Shami said was antisemitic. You can't, because she didn't.
Chakrabarti declined to name any of the guilty she referred to. (Peerage on its way?)
They exist though, whatever there names are.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 03:07 AM

I care not about "winning" or "losing" professor, try reading IF by Rudyard Kipling "if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those imposters just the same"

What we have had reinforced is YOUR blatant RACISM.

Even Bobad acknowledges it was unacceptable in 1930's America, and here are you trying to justify it in 21st Century Britain.

Not that I'm at all surprised by the fact you are a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 02:18 AM

Getting rattled Shaw? You would not know reasonable if it jumped up and bit you, it is not a trait you deal in.

IF the two investigations carried out had been transparent then names would have been named - but no it was decided that it did not matter a damn who said what in the past it would not mean expulsion and exclusion for life as "People change their minds" {The phrase actually used in the Report} - As it stands now there are collectively 27 recommendations that have to be addressed - sounds pretty serious to me (Not just something being taken seriously). A major damage control exercise and one of the worst kinds of "cover-up" you can have as it leaves the reality that there are anti-Semitic racists in the Party whose identities are known to the NEC but not to anyone else - kinda saps respect and trust of the voter.

Any comment on the recent polls that show that one-third of Labour voters would prefer to see Theresa May as Prime Minister than vote for Corbyn? Now that is some leader that you've got there, just what the "Party" needs, I say "Party" because precisely through this man's indomitable leadership he has managed single-handedly to destroy the main opposition party at Westminster to create three separate entities "Momentum" (His own personal cadre), the Parliamentary Labour Party who represent the Voters who voted for them NOT those who selected them, and finally the voters themselves, the 9.5 million people who voted for Labour. I have not mentioned the 551,000 signed up members of the Labour Party as that particular organisation has finally been taken over by, as Keith A says:

"violent, unprincipled and self-aggrandising bullies killing the Labour Party".

No bloody wonder you support and defend them Shaw - as described above you'd fit in with them seamlessly, as effortlessly as a duck takes to water.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 08:19 PM

Oh, give over, Woodcock. I thought for a minute there you were getting reasonable. There was a damn sight more naked transparency than you'd get with any of your tawdry crowd. I love it that we do stuff straight down the line sans the spin that you lot learned fom the despicable Blair. But all you do is sit back and allow the bloody Telegraph and the Express and the Rothermere fascists and the Murdoch wankers lead you by the nose. Underneath it all you know that Keith is up shit creek without a paddle. We don't expect you to ditch your pride and admit that out loud, but you're clever enough to extricate yourself from his ignorant bilge without losing face. We might even end up loving you. Shit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 07:49 PM

Raggytash - 27 Jul 16 - 03:31 PM

"When I was a child in the late 50's early 60's MY parents taught me it was wrong to label people as such. Not only MY parents but the parents of my friends and acquaintances. Not one of us would utter a word like that."

Then they all sat down to watch "The Black and White Minstrel Show" which ran from 1958 until 1978. Described as light entertainment it was considered extremely popular - even won prizes at Montreux.

"'There was no major antisemitism found in the Labour Party"

I think the report concluded that there was no institutionalised anti-Semitism in the Labour Party - that does under no circumstances means that anti-Semitism did not exist - far too many recommendations related to actions that have to be taken to eradicate the practice for it not to exist. Someone chirped up about transparency - If there was indeed real transparency then names would have been named, the fact that they weren't with any other political party or organisation the "usual suspects" would be screaming "whitewash" and "cover-up" from the roof-tops.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 07:18 PM

Segregation on public transport and word usage are two separate issues. I'm not an American but as far as I know African Americans used public transport but in some jurisdictions seating was segregated.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 06:40 PM

Well, as we allowed black people to sit on our buses long before you did, why would you suppose that we were behind you? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 06:05 PM

Notice I said in the US. I have no knowledge of how this term was considered in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:47 PM

Bloody hell, Keith. Stuffed by bobad. Whatever next? Teribus joining the SWP? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM

The term has been considered offensive in the US at least since 1939 according to this letter from Thurgood Marshall to Whitman's candy company:


April 5, 1939

Dear Gentlemen:

A member of our Association has sent to us a package which had contained peppermint candy prepared by your company. The trade name on this package is "Whitman's Pickaninny Peppermints—Chocolate Covered."

On behalf of the members of this Association, we protest the use of the term "pickaninny" as applied to young Negro children whose pictures appear on your package. This term is extremely distasteful to Negroes.

We are calling this matter to your attention in the hope that you will discontinue the use of this term on packages of candy manufactured and distributed by you. We have not taken this matter up with our branches as yet, pending a reply from you. We will therefore appreciate an early reply.

Very truly yours,

Thurgood Marshall

Whitman's Pickaninny Peppermints—Chocolate Covered

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM

And as for this load of tripe:

"Jim,
'There was no major antisemitism found in the Labour Party , as hard as Keith tried.'

Yes there was. Quite a lot. See the Chakrabarti report."

Then quote the bits of the report that refer to major antisemitism. You can't, because there aren't any. Tell us who Shami said was antisemitic. You can't, because she didn't. The best you can do is to cast aspersions on her integrity. Well I don't always agree with her stances, but when it comes to integrity, honesty and straightforwardness she can knock any of the right-wing wankers who you support into a cocked hat. Go on, smear. I dare you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 05:13 PM

Labour List are not the Labour Party. It is an entirely independent organisation. They are no more the Labour Party than AIPAC are Israel. So you can bloody cut that out for a start, you charlatan. Jesus, you are so dishonest. Good job some of us check you out every now and then. You are a very easy man to catch out, and do you know why that is? Because you think we're all so bloody thick that we'll take all your "authoritative" pronouncements on board without demur. Well you can think again.

I started working in multi-ethnic schools in East London in 1973. I can fearlessly assure you that "piccaninny" was a word even then that you would absolutely never use. My wife started work in a junior school in Stepney a year later. I've just checked with her. She was horrified at the suggestion that the word was ever even remotely acceptable even that long ago. It was not. The fact that you think it was marks you out as a racist.

I'm going to ask you again. Name one Labour member who was explicitly found guilty of antisemitism. I want something solid and not some waffly statements you've cherrypicked that are capable of infinite interpretation. And don't give me that sour-grapes "they would say that anyway" crap. The Labour Party have been searingly open and honest in dealing with this in the face of hostile onslaughts from sanctimonious supporters of the Israeli regime in the Tory party, the Labour right and hypocritical bunches of media racists. Which is a damn sight more than can be said about the sleazy organisations that you support, which deal with uncomfortable revelations via a massive spin machine. Christ, they didn't half learn a lot from Blair.