BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 11:17 AM

Why would any nation feel it would need to try to ban the rest of the world from ever comparing it to n@zi Germany...???

...unless.....?????? 🤔



funny old world.. innit....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 11:05 AM

Comparing Israel to Nazis is anti-Semitic, 31 Western states declare

An intergovernmental body devoted to commemorating the Holocaust adopted a definition of anti-Semitism that includes some hate speech against Israel.

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, or IHRA, adopted the definition on May 26, according to a statement posted earlier this week on its website. The organization was launched in 1998 and has 31 member states, all of them Western nations, and 11 observer countries.

The text closely resembles a document that had served as the European Union's working definition of anti-Semitism before Brussels distanced itself from the definition following lobbying and criticism by pro-Palestinian activists.

Adopted in 2005 by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia – a body set up by the European Union to combat racism – it was removed in 2013 from the website of the Fundamental Rights Agency, the body that replaced the centre. A spokesperson for the agency told JTA the EU neither needed nor had a real definition for the phenomenon. She said the document had been pulled as part of maintenance work on the website.


Of IHRA's 31 members, which include the United States and Canada, 24 are EU member states. Another two EU states are observers.


JTA

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 10:52 AM

What antisemitic abuse, Keith?

I do not know Steve.
It was the NEC who said they were appalled by recent examples of it, and that it was "a serious issue."
Perhaps it is you who are unable to recognise it.

Do you actually know what antisemitism is, or do you just rely on your disreputable and dishonest ally on this forum for moral support for your untenable position?

I have relied on Labour politicians and members who have attacked antisemitism within Labour.

You are just shooting at the messenger.

Do you actually know what antisemitism is, because your party has a very different view of it than you do.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 09:52 AM

You know I am not going to read this entire thread so apologise if it has already been said, and I don't know what other comments she's had in her life and what the context was, however the original Facebook post that caused all this was a storm in a teacup. Many claim that the Labour politician seriously suggested all Jews should be relocated to the US - but she didn't. She shared a FB post (who's author is himself Jewish) that was supposed to be satirical and tongue in cheek. I remember seeing the post myself and not thinking it funney enough to share. I suppose the main point being that through the years the Israeli state could often expect support from the US to the extent that it may as well be another US state. Whatever one thinks there is a massive difference between sharing a humourous post (be it bad taste or not) and seriously suggesting people should be relocated.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 09:01 AM

What antisemitic abuse, Keith? Remarks about Israel (not about Jews) by Naz Shah? Remarks about Zionists and Hitler which were historically correct, commenting on the politics, not the innate nature of Jews? Remarks about the slave trade which were also historically correct, not exclusively about Jews in any case, made by a woman who is a descendant of Jews, along with her partner? Do you actually know what antisemitism is, or do you just rely on your disreputable and dishonest ally on this forum for moral support for your untenable position?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM

This is the tool racists use to identify, mark out and discredit Jewish public figures and writers.

Coincidence Detector

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 06:12 AM

From the same piece in Labour List.

"Shami Chakrabarti, who will be chairing a wider ranging inquiry looking at anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue and is committed to addressing all the issues raised by these inquiries. "
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

So all you people who claim that antisemitism within Labour is not a serious issue are directly contradicted by the Labour Party National Executive committee who say it is, and they are appalled by recent antisemitic abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 05:21 AM

Jim,
You haven't linked us to "all our media" - just the ones who make your case and all directly traceable back to one form of pro-Israeli organisation or other.

I have mostly used BBC, The Independent and Guardian, and not their opinions but direct quotes of Labour politicians.
Had they been misquoted I am sure they would have found a way expose the lies.

You have yet to tell us who exatly are these "lots of people"

I have quoted lots of Labour politicians.

You've already been caught out telling porkies about the NEC

All I have put up about the NEC is a direct quote from "Labour List."
Is that under Zionist control?

Here is what I posted.

"Alice Perry's NEC report: Corbyn, fighting prejudice and listening to voters online
23RD MAY, 2016 3:22 PM"

"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for."
http://labourlist.org/2016/05/alice-perrys-nec-report-corbyn-fighting-prejudice-and-listening-to-voters-online/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 04:55 AM

"To anti-semites anything positive about Israel is automatically propaganda"
And to Israel - any criticism of their extremist right-wing policy is Antisemitism - their minister said so.
That is, by definition, is nationalist extremism of the type that fed the Nazi gas chambers - Deutschland Uber Alles - remember?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:01 PM

Yeah - anti-semites are complete arseholes... it's their loss if they can not delight in all the great things about Israeli landscape, arts and culture...

Pity the poor ignorant bastards...


Glad to say I don't actually know any..... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 04:56 PM

So all our media is now in Zionist hands and nothing can be believed.
You are right Jim.
That does invalidate everything I have said here.

To anti-semites anything positive about Israel is automatically propaganda of the all powerful Jew controlled media. This is how they justify their claim of not being anti-semites.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:33 PM

"Actually, the wife wishes......"
You too - must have a pint sometime and discuss tactics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:10 PM

Keth - I'm outraged that you think I'm outraged.... 🙄


I don't do energy wasting stressy emotions.....


Actually, the wife wishes I was less self restrained and more excitable and over emotive like the Americans on the daytime telly...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:53 PM

"So all our media is now in Zionist hands and nothing can be believed."
You've seen the BBC statement Keith - yet refuse to even commencement on it.
One thingls for certain; Israel would not be spending the billions it is on propaganda if it wasn't giving them a return.
You haven't linked us to "all our media" - just the ones who make your case and all directly traceable back to one form of pro-Israeli organisation or other.
You always do this - come in with a set agenda then scrabble around for cut-'n-pastes to back it up.
I've given you examples of some of your 'evidence's' links to Israel - no comment.
I've given you direct links to Israel's now out-of-hand behaviour - no comment.
I've shown you how much is being spent on propaganda - no comment.
I've given you the Labour Party's historical position on Antisemitism - no comment.
You started his thread as if you were actually interested in the situation - you aren't - you never have been, not in the case against Israel, not in The Jewish People, certainly not in the truth of the matter.
If there is a major problem in the labour party - what exactly is it - not what 'the friends of Israel' think - what do you think and more to the point, what do you actually know?
You've already been caught out telling porkies about the NEC
You have yet to tell us who exatly are these "lots of people"
You find the truth by using your own common sense on the facts we can rely on.
Logic tells me that, as there is a long running battle going on between Left and Right in the Labour Party, while, at the same time, Israel is desperately trying to dig itself out of the massive hole it is digging for itself in the Middle East and as Israel is in the hands of a ruthlessly inhuman regime who are behaving like crooked despots, what with him cooking the books and his wife drinking herself into oblivion and treating the hired help as personal slaves, then perhaps we can't believe everything claimed by a press that is pretty much going along with this nasty little bunch of very dangerous despots.
You want to convince us of your arguments then put some up that don't leak like a Liverpool supporter who had just downed twenty pints.
Where is your evidence and where is your common sense?
Why should a political party who, for all its flaws, has sttod up for The Jewish and the Islamic and the blacks and the poor.... and all the people your lot has traditionally stamped on.... why should they, overnight have turned into a bunch of Antisemites?
I could easily have believed it of your party - that has been their raison detre throughout their history.
God knows, I'm no 'New Labour' supporter, but I can recogognise a fit-up when I see one - your role as a serial Israeli atrocity denier only confirms my suspicions.
Your turn now - call me a liar, you usually do.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM

but the B.B.. has admitted being in Israel's pocket.
All the Lebour links, (and the rest) you have provided are traceable back to the Israeli propaganda collosus.

So all our media is now in Zionist hands and nothing can be believed.
You are right Jim.
That does invalidate everything I have said here.

Is there anywhere that I can go to find the truth?
Electronic Intifada?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:53 PM

"Lots of Labour members and its NEC say there is a problem,"
Who and on what basis - you seem to have in in on how"lots people and the N.E.C. is thinking" or is that just what, you from your political stance, would have us believe.
How do youknow what "lots of people" are thinking - the N.EC.C. appears to have exonerated the Party of having an Antisemitism problem.
The BBC has said there's a problem - but the B.B.. has admitted being in Israel's pocket.
All the Lebour links, (and the rest) you have provided are traceable back to the Israeli propaganda collosus.
Where is your eveidense for any of this nonsense?
Once again, you refuse even to acknowledge the terrifying direction Israel is now taking, its betrayal of the Jewish People, its War criminality, the fact that an extremist right-wing Middle Easter country with nuclear capability is disparaging Jewish critics, destabalising the Middle East and threatening the lives and well-being of yours, mine and the rest of humanities well-being.
You are not the slightest bit interested in Antisemitism or the Jewish Peole, you vote has always gone to teh extremist Israeli candidate and your dishonesty in doing so has been the main feature of your support for that regime.
Where's your evidence that there is a problem withi the Labour party apart from your Israeli propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:28 PM

Jim,
I don't believe for one minute that The Labour Party is full of Anti-semites - that is a myth generated by the propaganda machine which has been set up to defend the Israeli ultra-right policies -

Lots of Labour members and its NEC say there is a problem, at least with Momentum and the Left if not mainstream Labour.

Jim Murphy is a right winger who was cited in parliament for his heavy-handed right-wing tactics.

He has been part of the Labour Party his whole adult life, been a long standing Labour MP and the leader of Scottish Labour.

Steve,
lying about non-existent EU guidelines

Do you mean the working definitions of antisemitism that are still published by the European Parliament Working Group On Antisemitism, an EU body?

and by refusing to address questions put to you.

Not refused, I must have missed them.
Sorry.
Please repost them.

Pfr,
I just put this up as an issue, which Labour itself clearly thinks itis.
It is yours and Steve's outrage and denials that have kept this thread going all these weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 08:20 AM

"It is yours and Steve's outrage and denials that have kept this thread going all these weeks.

Keith - at risk of being lured into your playground tactics of "Please teacher, they started it..."

It's your thread, you started it, I respond to your daily thread perpetuating attacks upon the Labour Party..

.. and as before I sincerely thank you for this opportunity to learn from Jim and Steve's, and other occasional poster's, superior knowledge and experience,
and their ability to articulate my line of ideas much better than I am able...

This thread is very good refresher education - You're doing me a big favour Keith.....

cheers mates... 😎

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM

Excellent posts from both Jim and pfr above - cheers, lads. Let's keep the little island of sanity in this thread. Keith, you are entitled to ask me questions when you answer questions yourself. You've made a complete fool of yourself in this thread both by lying about non-existent EU guidelines and by refusing to address questions put to you. I have better things to spend my time on.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:59 AM

"Former Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy accuses Momentum of having, "a problem with antisemitism "
Jim Murphy is a right winger who was cited in parliament for his heavy-handed right-wing tactics.
He was chairman of the Pro-Israeli 'Labour Friends of Israel' and is a member of the Henry Jackson Society's Political Council
Henry Jackson Soc.
It suits him to denigrate the progressive side of Lablour - what else if he going to say?
See what I mean - wheels within wheels in all these attacks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:45 AM

"Jim, I substantiated that stuff with quotes."
Sure you did Keith - don't you always select the best on offer?
Once more you hide behind the result of your internet trawls and refuse to respond to the implications of where they came from and why they are there in the first place.
Something else you will ignore
Traditionally the left parties and activists have championed the rights of other races, have been on the forefront of the fight agaists racism and Antisemitism... and most other progressive movements.
It is you extremists who have traditionally taken the other side - racism, Antisemitism, cultural hatred - all the domain of the right - it was the right who drove six million Jews into the gas chambers.
If the Labour party have no become Antisemitic in their outlook, it is because they have embraced Tory values - SFA to do with the ideals of Labour.
This is a double whammy for people like you - you get to defend your favourite terrorist state while at the same tim, get a chance to smear the only hope Britain has of having a half decent and humane political party'
Feel free to ignore this - it really wasn't for your benefit.

Tried to post this response to Steve earlier, but apparently Max is still having his problems, Gawd bless 'im.

I think it's a bit irrelevant to plouter around whether it was Jews, Gentiles, Muslims or whoever who were involved in Slavery or helped Hitler's rise to power - not necessarily or wholly inaccurate, but, given the present circumstances, somewhat inflammatory - one of Livingstone's boo-boos, but understandable given that Israel is forefront in blaming the Jewish people for the human rights abuses and war crimes it has committed and continues to commit.
There were Jews who opposed slavery, who fought for freedom for all; in my father's time and in mine, the British and American left was made up of large sections of Jews - revolutionaries, liberals, 'do-gooders' people who wanted to make the world a better place to live in - try the early novels of Howard Fast or the plays of Arthur Miller some time, still inspirational enough to be life-changing (and certainly not to people like Keith's taste).
We far-too-often equate all groups and communities with those who have made it to the top of the greasy pole, while forgetting that all communities have their dedicated heroes and fighters for human rights.
My dad once said that, if it wasn't for lapsed Catholics and Jews we wouldn't have a left movement in Britain and it would be a far lousier world without them - many of his mate who fought with him in Spain were refugees from Fascist Germany.
I don't believe for one minute that The Labour Party is full of Anti-semites - that is a myth generated by the propaganda machine which has been set up to defend the Israeli ultra-right policies - doesn't the claim that "all criticism of Israeli policy is Antisemitic" have chilling echoes of the thirties' "Jewish world plot"?
All Keith's and Bobad's claims are traceable back to Israel's fact-manufacturing factory - it really was money well-spent on this pair
STUDENTS
AMERICA
BBC
Jim Carroll

P.S
It will be interesting if these fall under the new restrictions of the new definition of "Antisemitism
Mrs N's Irvana Trump like shennanigans

Mr N's hand in the till

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:44 AM

you surly have a vested interest in blowing this alleged anti semitism up out of all proportions.

I have not done that.
I just put it up as an issue, which it clearly is.
It is yours and Steve's outrage and denials that have kept this thread going all these weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:41 AM

Keith - I accuse you of needing the 'problem' to be far more that it actually is...

For whatever vindictive reason you surly have a vested interest in blowing this alleged anti semitism up out of all proportions.

If you yourself are not jewish, then you have a peculiarly morbid fascination with the issue,
that doesn't strike me as based in any genuine empathy or altruism....???? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:41 AM

Former Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy accuses Momentum of having, "a problem with antisemitism ."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/only-jewish-candidate-for-labours-ruling-nec-blocked-after-intervention-by-jim-mur
http://labourlist.org/2016/06/momentum-candidate-set-to-pursue-second-nomination-for-nec-after-local-setback/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 07:02 AM

Steve, which board members do you consider "ardently pro- Israel" to the extent that their views on anti-semitism are not relevant and why.

Who are "enemies of Labour within Labour?"

Pfr, you have denied that the problem is significant.
Mountains and molehills.

Jim, I substantiated that stuff with quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 06:16 PM

This whole thing is so bloody ridiculous, Jim. Naz Shah is "antisemitic" even though she never used the word "Jews." Ken Livingstone is "antisemitic" because he truthfully mentioned the liaison between Hitler and senior Zionists. Jackie Walker is "antisemitic" because she dared to mention, honestly, the role of Jews in the sugar and slave trade. She's "antisemitic" even though both she and her partner are of Jewish descent. A couple of years ago I spent a few days in Liverpool, which was at the heart of the slave trade. Liverpool acknowledges its role and is man enough to take the flak. But mention that Jews were involved, which they were, big time, and you're shot down. Not all Jews. Not only Jews. But you are not allowed to mention it. The wider definition of antisemitism, the one that proscribes any criticism of Israel, trumps fair, honest and open debate every time.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 03:03 PM

"The NEC and much of the membership disagree with you."
The NEC has reported no institutional racism within the Labour
Party and th Oxford enquiry came out with a verdict of not guilty.
As the official inquiry isn't due out yet.
Do you know something none of the rest of us do about a "much of the membership" or are you just making that up? (rhetorical question)

"You deny there is a problem."
Yes, undoubtedly - the whole situation has been blown up and paid for
by the Israli propaganda machine which is spending millions to discredit critics
Witch Hunt

Of course there are Antisemites within the Labour Party as there are in every party
of course it depends how you define the term

What it amounts to is that a tiny handful of people within the party have not chosen their words properly when criticising Israel
As Israel has now monopolised the term 'Antisemitism and has described Jewish critics as Self-loathing Jews the term has become meaningless anyway.
Even top-ranking and respected members of the Israeli establishement are Israel's behavior to that of Pre-War Germany

The Israeli Justice minister has gone so far as to say tht it is Antisemitic to EVER CRITICISE ISRAEL

******* ridiculous!!
The situation has intensified genuine Antisemitism in the world today and put the lives and well being of all Jews at risk
Israel is now an Antisemitic State in the very real sense.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM

I didn't say pro-Israel, oh expert of the partial quote. I said ardently pro-Israel. Israel sycophants, blind to that state's transgressions. The only sense in which I am pro-Israel is that I want the people who live there, all of them, to have peace, security and prosperity, precisely the opposite of the direction in which their regime is taking them. The same as what I want for everyone else. Oh, and I oppose anyone who says they are going to wipe Israel from the map or who targets Jews because they are Jews. And that includes Labour politicians. Oddly, I have seen hardly any who actually do that. Well, none so far that I'm convinced of.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 01:01 PM

"You deny there is a problem."

Oh no I don't.... oops... not panto season yet is it...???

Never have, as well you know if you actually read what I write.

If there is a problem of anti semitism in the Labour Party
I firmly conclude, that it is of nowhere near the magnitude and importance
Labour's enemies outside and within the party are so desperately attempting to fabricate...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 12:45 PM

You deny there is a problem.
The NEC and much of the membership disagree with you.
I thought it would make an interesting discussion given that there are several of the Labour hard left here.

I thought it might last a few days, but not weeks.
It has not been driven by me.
Bobad and I have mostly just responded to what has been said by you, Steve and Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:55 AM

"It is about the current problems of Labour."

Keith - After all this long thread, the only sensible conclusion I can objectively arrive at
is that Labour is rife with antisemitic extremists and not fit for Government ever again,
especially with Corbyn as leader...

no.. seriously Keith...


.. oh alright.. in yer dreams Keith..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:41 AM

You have defended all their atrocities, all their massacres, their policy of expansionism, their attempts to set up an Apartheid State, the slaughter of civilians and the bombing of hospitals and schools, chemical and anti-personnel wepons ...... every War crime and human human rights abuse that has ever been pointed out to you

No I have not.
I have put Israel's side of the story and pointed out that no liberal democracy accuses israel of atrocities or massacres or any of that shit, only the very unpleasant regimes that are enemies of Israel.

Now please desist in your obsessive compulsion to make this yet another thread about Israel!
This is not about Israel.
It is about the current problems of Labour.
Any views on that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:33 AM

" you mean they want it to continue to exist, "
You have defended all their atrocities, all their massacres, their policy of expansionism, their attempts to set up an Apartheid State, the slaughter of civilians and the bombing of hospitals and schools, chemical and anti-personnel wepons ...... every War crime and human human rights abuse that has ever been pointed out to you
And now you are about to claim that none of this ever happened and it is all propaganda.
If that is what it takes to continue to exoist, then perhaps it has forfeited that right?
That is what Steve means
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 11:17 AM

Steve, if by "pro-Israel" you mean they want it to continue to exist, you have said that you do too.

Are you asserting that they are all too right wing to be on the board?
Which ones and why Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM

..[yeah I know... I didn't catch it in Preview - last time my eyes were tested and new lenses prescribed was 20 years ago... 🤓]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:54 AM

I'm waiting for a phone call from my mother's Dr and getting a bit bored...
so...


There are good and bad people

All people are good

All people are bad

There are good and bad Jews

All Jews are good

All Jews are bad

There are good people who happen to be Jews

There are bad people who happen to be Jews

There are good people because they are Jews

There are bad people because they are Jews

The only good people are Jews

The only bad people are Jews


Now I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this flow...
anyone else want to join in and contribute....?????


Maybe a cut out and keep card learning discussion card game for kiddies or cultural political illiterates.....????? 🎓

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:29 AM

What part of what she said was a "slur," Keith? Was she telling fibs? Did you look at the context (excuse me for being suspicious of you, but you've made the partial quote twice already). What was antisemitic? Did she say "all Jews?" Did she say "only Jews?" If she isn't allowed to say "Jews," what should she call them? Proto-Israelis?😂What do they call themselves? Are we allowed to say that Christians were involved in the slave trade? Frankly, you are crazy and mixed up. You want to jump on every remark made by anyone to the left of you (which is just about everyone), antennae a-twitching, looking for signs of cod-antisemitism. When you sat in your middle-class Christian pew last Sunday, did you not wonder how many of those devout chanters of prayers around you might have been harbouring just the teensiest hint of your brand of antisemitism?

And do you think you could answer (only if you want to, of course) by saying what you think instead of telling us what an assortment of other people think? That would make a nice change...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 09:14 AM

My point is bleeding obvious. Most of the "advisory board" are ardently pro-Israel and are hardly going to argue against your broadened definition of antisemitism (the one that tries to stem all criticism of Israel). In fact, I'd say they are more of a lobby grouping than an advisory board, so it's a good job those criteria are not official EU policy. Not exactly balanced, is it, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM

"far-left "
Israel now has an extremist far-right policy - acknowledged by members of its own establishment
It was the far-right of Germany who herded six million Jews to their deaths - established fact.
We now seem to be getting down to the fact that it is not The Jewish People you are defending but the far-right policies of the Israeli Regime.
This is where this argument should have been in the first place.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 08:01 AM

Keith - Btw.. if we showed you large high definition photos of mountains and molehills, could you easily identify which was which.....????? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 07:59 AM

As the political horseshoe theory attributed to Jean-Pierre Faye highlights, if we travel far-left enough, we find the very same sneering, nasty and reckless bully-boy tactics used by the far-right. The two extremes of the political spectrum end up meeting like a horseshoe, at the top, which to my mind symbolizes totalitarian control from above. In their quest for ideological purity, Stalin and Hitler had more in common than modern neo-Nazis and far-left agitators would care to admit.

Horseshoe Theory

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 07:51 AM

Keith - if it's that important to you, take it up with your local Labour councillor, or MP if you're lucky enough to have one...


"So Labour Party Jews are not left wing enough to have their views considered!

.. no.. just the daft ones and the more bigoted Israeli regime supporters who put their narrow obsessions
before Labour's key principles, priorities, and party loyalty and unity.. 😠


Throughout the early 20th Century Jewish intellectual marxists were among the vanguard of the movement,
and deserve utmost recognition and respect..

Even more so those in pre war Germany, and central/eastern Europe.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 07:32 AM

Steve,
As an aside, just look at the "advisory bodies" of your quango.

Here is the Advisory Board.
What is your point?

ADVISORY BOARD
INTER-PARLIAMENTARY COALITION FOR COMBATING ANTISEMITISM        

EUROPEAN JEWISH CONGRESS

B'NAI BRITH INTERNATIONAL        

CEJI – A JEWISH CONTRIBUTION TO AN INCLUSIVE EUROPE

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM

So Labour Party Jews are not left wing enough to have their views considered!

How many Jews of any political persuaion can you find who do not regard the statements of Shah, Wright and others as offensively anti-semitic.

We do know that Sadiq Khan does.
We do know that Labour's NEC does.
We do know that the Jewish Labour Movement and Israel's Labour Party does.

I've already explained to you why it was no slur and not antisemitic.
!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 05:49 AM

"To the regressive left anyone who opposes radical Islamists is an Islamophobe"
As anybody who critiscises Israel is an Anti-Semite.
Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 16 - 09:43 PM

... oh yeah.. btw.. earlier I watched a news interview with a former CIA agent, he acknowledged that one of their favoured dirty tactics
is to target people 'who's opinions are not agreeable' and find any pretext
to get them up in front of a judge and tied up in court proceedings...

That'll keep 'em wearily preoccupied and distracted from doing whatever it was the CIA found displeasing.... 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:58 PM

I trust Labour to implement an internal policy of encouraging members to be aware of any old fashioned trad white racists,
and any newcomer muslims intolerant to jews within the party.
Report them at branch level, so they can be dealt with appropriately.
While the party goes about the daily business of striving to protect and save our beleaguered nation from the tories...

All this shrill hyperbolic media hysteria indicates that this is not the real issue...

.. and bob 'n' keith.. you both know this to be true..


[unless you really are that disturbed and deluded... 😜 ]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:45 PM

Yes, and that's only right, because antisemitism is after all the single key issue of greatest vital importance and priority,
determining why we all ever vote Labour...!!! ✔

Let the nation and it's poorest over exploited citizens rot, as long as we STAMP OUT anyone who doesn't feel agreeable to licking Israel's arse......

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:30 PM

Here`s a lob for you, have at 'er

Yet, there are some Labour leaders who see the problem, and want the party to take more drastic and immediate action (via BBC):

    Lord Levy told BBC Newsnight he believed anti-Semitism existed across the political divide, but it seemed "more prominent" within Labour.

    It follows the party's decision to suspend MP Naz Shah from the party over comments about Israel on social media, pending an investigation.

    […]

    Lord Levy, who was Tony Blair's envoy and chief fundraiser, told the BBC her comments displayed "ignorance", and he was left "scratching his head with despair as to how people like this can enter our parliament with such a lack of knowledge, discretion and sensitivity".

    His comments were echoed by cross-bench peer Baroness Neuberger, who claimed Labour's problem of anti-Semitism was "attached to Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader", and added that it was "an issue with the hard left".

    Labour has faced claims of growing anti-Semitism in its ranks. Earlier this year a Labour Luton councillor was suspended from the party after claiming Hitler was the "greatest man in history".

    […]

    Shadow education secretary Lucy Powell, Ed Miliband's former chief of staff, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the party "had to do more" to tackle anti-Semitism and MP Lisa Nandy said it had to be more "pro-active".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 16 - 08:12 PM

Really, I seem to recall that he referred to Muslims as brown people with unhygienic habits, etc. It's you giving yourself away by calling upon witnesses such as Daniel Pipes, who's clearly a lunatic of the first order. Do tell us: do you regard Muslims/Arabs as brown people with inconveniently unhygienic habits? Daniel does! 😂😂😂

Just don't think for one second that you can, just like Keith thinks he can, bring your illiberal, prejudiced and agenda-laden nonsense here and expect it to stay unchallenged. You've been called out big-time in the last couple of days for quoting people who couldn't argue their way out of a paper bag if put alongside genuine and fair-minded people who are actually acquainted with the facts. And, I must say, in a weird way I have to admire your utter shamelessness in putting yourself up as an unapologetic and sycophantic spokesman for Israel when you are are actually the most dishonest person who's still allowed to post on this forum. Jesus, if Bibi ever reads this I reckon he'd send you a dog turd in the post to shut you up. You're certainly a massive embarrassment to the nation you claim to support.