BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:49 PM

Bobad is a two-faced, lying troll

This is typical of Shaw, pay it no heed. He is a renowned bully who attacks those who dare disagree with his opinions. For him and a couple of his buddies here anyone who challenges them is a troll. It's quite pathetic really but this is a forum that tolerates people like them.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:46 PM

Go away, liar. You understand nothing about anything. And that's the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:26 PM

the creation of the state of Israel was achieved largely by acquisition of land belonging to others

That is historically inaccurate and a typical anti-Semitic trope.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:03 PM

Bobad is a two-faced, lying troll, Andy, with a history here of dishonesty, multiple identity, abusive comments from behind a wall of anonymity and attempted deception. Anyway, enough of that. I agree with almost all you say. Actually, though, although there are stupid and misguided factions surrounding Israel who STATE that they want to wipe Israel from the map/Jews from the planet, etc., none have ever got anywhere near to trying to do it, let alone actually doing it. That isn't to say that they haven't been provoked into seriously inappropriate responses to successive Israeli regimes' disproportionate, bellicose provocation and cross-border abuses, not to speak of those land thefts you refer to. It's a bloody rotten mess all right and it's fuelled almost entirely by the unconditional support of Israel from the US, including three billion per annum in military aid. It is, however, perfectly possible to see where Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah are coming from whilst at the same time defending the inalienable right of ordinary Israelis to have peace, prosperity and security. What a shame that the current Israeli regime thinks that that only applies to three-quarters of the Israeli people, but therein lies another tale. As for applying standards to Israel, well I for one should like to see countries such as the US, China and Saudi Arabia isolated and sanctioned for their atrocious human rights records. They all put people to death in their droves and they all hassle and undermine their neighbours in their own self-interest. Jihadi John with his public beheadings was a monster. A country which supplies much of our oil and with whom we have a massive arms trade does exactly the same thing to people, in public, hundreds of times a year. Isn't expediency a wonderful thing. But I'm not for letting Israel off for its transgressions just because other countries are "just as bad." Anyone who feels offended by that can start a thread to discuss the nastiness of any country they like. You don't let little Jimmy off for hitting the little boy at the next desk just because little Billy has been looking up girls' skirts.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:02 PM

I agree that they don't have it easy but that is because of the corruption, incompetence and recalcitrance of their leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:53 PM

Yes, I do understand that dilemma.

If you read my original post again, you will see that I was attempting to be sympathetic towards the Israeli situation, which I realise is not easy.

But still, we should be able to criticise any state, when it violates others' rights. The people living in the so-called 'occupied territories' (a judgemental term, I know) also do not have it easy.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:41 PM

Judea and Samaria or what is referred to by some as the West Bank, a name given it when illegally occupied by Jordan, is not, nor has it ever been, "Palestinian" land. It is the historical heartland of the Jewish people, a place where they resided for generations until being ethnically cleansed by the Jordanians. Israel would gladly give it to the "Palestinians" for a state if the security of Israel could be assured. The experience with Gaza and the continuing PA supported terrorist activity against Jews makes it clear that the "Palestinian" leadership is incapable of providing that assurance.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:12 PM

Throughout history, land has changed hands. As I said, we have to work with the current situation.

Very difficult, though, if not impossible, to get this right!

If you stole my land a year ago, you committed a crime, and it's still my land, if I can get it back.

But if your ancestors stole the land from my ancestors 100 years ago? 1,000 years ago? 5,000 years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:04 PM

has continued to build new settlements on Palestinian land.

Pray tell us when Judea and Samaria became "Palestinian" land.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:00 PM

I've just read through (some of) this long thread, which started as a discussion about the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn, and has more recently become a discussion about the alleged crimes against humanity of the state of Israel.

I believe it is fair to criticise any regime that is violating human rights. In my opinion, this includes Israel, which has continued to build new settlements on Palestinian land.

I can kind of understand Israel's thinking! In the UK, we are blessed by being surrounded by friends: northern continental Europe, Ireland and Scandinavia. In contrast, Israel, since its formation, has been surrounded by enemies, which more than once have tried to wipe it off the map.

That makes aggressive Israeli policies a lot more understandable. It still does not make them right.

There is also the uncomfortable fact that the creation of the state of Israel was achieved largely by acquisition of land belonging to others. However, we have to live in, and work with, the current situation. No one is seriously going to argue, for example, that the whole of the USA should be returned to native Americans, nor that the whole of the UK should be returned to the Celtic races.

However ... I agree that, if we are (justifiably) to criticise Israel, we should apply the same criteria to others. Israel is a democracy, with human rights legislation, that compares favourably with many other nations. They are, in some ways, a 'soft' target.

So, I wish we would criticise the human rights records of all nations, according to their current policies and actions.

Not so easy to do, though, in the real world, when we want good trade deals with economically and politically important countries such as China! For example ... best if we don't ever invite the Dalai Lama to visit in an official capacity again!   :-(

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 03:00 PM

Your "decent countries" poured burning petrol on Viet-Namese peasants for fourteen Years

Canada? New Zealand? Australia? Scandinavian and other EU states?
None supported those silly resolutions against Israel, or accused them of any war crime.

They leave that to decent, rights respecting democracies like Iran, Saudi, Syria, Egypt, Qatar, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 02:44 PM

"You have come up with a new name to call us,"
Anybodyt who repeats something stupid over and over again is disfunctional.
Israel's record is as it is
If it is unjust, on of their friends would have protested
None did
End of story
Your "decent countries" poured burning petrol on Viet-Namese peasants for fourteen Years
Sold weapons to recognised despots including Assad, who has just bombed relief convoys
Bargained with the perpetrators of the Tainament Square massacre to build a nuclear power plant
Payed homage to to the founder of a dictatorship at the same time as a journalist was being given 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
Even people who behave like this refuse to speak in support of Israel's terrorism.
Game over
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 01:56 PM

Well done Jim.
You have come up with a new name to call us, but still none of your "documented evidence" that you claim to have.

From your UN link Jim.

"The U.N. Human Rights Council wrapped up its latest session in Geneva on Friday, March 27 by adopting four resolutions condemning Israel. That's four times more than any of the other 192 UN member states.

There were four resolutions on Israel. And one on North Korea — a country that is home to government policies of torture, starvation, enslavement, rape, disappearances, and murder – to name just some of its crimes against humanity.

Four resolutions on Israel. And one on Syria. Where the death toll of four years of war is 100,000 civilians, ten million people are displaced, and barrel bombs containing chemical agents like chlorine gas are back in action.


Four resolutions on Israel. And one on Iran. Where there is no rule of law, no free elections, no freedom of speech, corruption is endemic, protestors are jailed and tortured, religious minorities are persecuted, and pedophilia is state-run. At last count, in 2012 Iranian courts ordered more than 30,000 girls ages 14 and under to be "married."

And what did that one resolution on Iran say? Co-sponsored by the United States, it was labelled a "short procedural text," consisting of just three operative paragraphs that contained not a single condemnation of Iran.


The Israel resolutions, on the other hand, were full of "demands," "condemns," "expresses grave concern," and "deplores" – along with orders to "cease immediately" a long list of alleged human rights violations.

Ninety percent of states – inhabited by 6.6 billion people – got no mention at all. Countries like China, Qatar, Russia, and Saudi Arabia. For the UN, there was not one human rights violation worthy of mention by any of these human rights horror shows.

Why not? For starters, China, Qatar, Russia and Saudi Arabia are all members of the UN Human Rights Council.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 01:06 PM

"and no dcent government has ever accused him of any."
It would not be beyond reason to describe the behaviour of you pair as dysfunctional.
You have done far more damage to your ow image than I could ever dream of doing so there seems very little point in attempting to better what you have achieved.
I'll leave you to it
I'VE ALWAYS CONSIDERED THE UN TO BE FAIRLY DECENT AND FAIR
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 10:14 AM

No enquiry has ever found him guilty of any war crime

Same can be said for Henry Kissinger.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM

Thank you for confirming that Israel elects war criminals into public office though

No enquiry has ever found him guilty of any war crime, and no dcent government has ever accused him of any.
Only you and other enemies of Israel.

You've had enough evidence to choke a donkey

We have had no hard evidence of any Israeli involvement in the massacre or disposal of bodies.

if you have any of your own to contradict it - give it,

We have Israel's version of events, which is based on reports of reputable bodies like ICRC and staff from the hospital, which is infinitely more credible that the version you and Israel's enemies keep trying to push but which informed governments all reject.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 09:31 AM

You really don't get it, do you?
Are you so feeble minded as to think you can bully and bluster and refuse to qualify any of your claims?
Until you grasp the basics of discussion, I really do think we're finished here
You've had enough evidence to choke a donkey - if you have any of your own to contradict it - give it, otherwise, you really do have no case.
This "made up shit" comes with sources - where are yours.
Your behaviour is unacceptable - and the fact you carry on as you do, anonymously and from a distance makes it cowardly
Try it in the pub and see how far you get - you'd end up going home with your teeth in your pocket - your 'excavating equipment expert' would probably run over you with his bulldozer
My name is Jim Carroll - if you can't even get your head around that simple courtesy - what's the point
I left trying to communicate with ill brought up children and imbeciles years ago
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 08:34 AM

Thanks Jom for demonstrating Point 5 of my last post perfectly:

5: "It is a matter of documented history, not opinion, certainly not yours."

That's a bit of a joke Jom, you have consistently proved beyond all possible doubt that you have absolutely no idea what documented historical fact is.

Here is Jom at his very best presenting what he thinks are "FACTS":

"Thank you for confirming that Israel elects war criminals into public office though" - Jim Carroll

Presenting "Made-up-shit" as fact - so tell us Jom what "war criminals" have the Israelis elected to public office? I mean actual convicted war criminals, not just those who you THINK are war criminals

To do this of course you will be readily able to provide:

- Name
- Offence
- Where tried and convicted
- What sentence they received
- What public office they were elected to

Jim Carroll however knows full well that he will be unable to produce any such information as his assertion that "Israel elects war criminals into public office is just complete and utter bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:46 AM

Still nothing but opinions eh?
Come back when you have something but your own blustering
Thank you for confirming that Israel elects war criminals into public office though - a step in the right direction for you, I suppose!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 07:10 AM

Jim Carroll - 22 Sep 16 - 03:30 AM

1: "Still nothing but opinions - no evidence whatever to back up your claims."

Well Jom, anybody's "estimate" of anything is "nothing but an opinion" - to declare it as a fact that 3,500 people were killed you must have 3,500 bodies, so your sources have expressed their opinion and they have absolutely nothing whatsoever to back up their claims - if you doubt that then read in detail what has been stated in the links that you yourself have provided - I have merely pointed out the inconsistencies in the stories told.

2: "The exaggeration of Jenin was exposed immediately - the facts of Sabra/Shatila have been a established for decades."

No it was not, it took about 5 to 6 months for the lies about Jenin to be exposed for what they were. Compare the stories and "eye-witness" testimony about Sabra-Shatila and Jenin and there are clear similarities, they got away with the lies in the former because the ground was not in Israel, in Jenin the ground was and remained under Israeli control.

3: "Nobody has mounted a serious challenge to the events during that time other than the Israelis in the form of their own enquiry."

The ICRC and the Lebanese Authorities in Beirut established clearly {Surveys undertaken by 17 different organisations and agencies did not put the death toll at anything like the 3,500 you claim}. The Israeli Inquiry into the events at Sabra-Shatila were harder on what was perceived as being the Israeli role in what happened than any other Inquiry carried out at the time. But all detailed that at no time did any members of the IDF enter the camp - so who was driving all those bulldozers Jom? Your eye-witnesses are very shaky about that.

4: "Even the role the Americans played in covering up this massacre has been long established, by American Human Rights Groups - it's all been put up."

Simply more opinion Jom. It was the Lebanese who drew a line under any investigation in the interests of reconciliation - no American cover-up, no Israeli cover-up.

5: "It is a matter of documented history, not opinion, certainly not yours."

That's a bit of a joke Jom, you have consistently proved beyond all possible doubt that you have absolutely no idea what documented historical fact is.

6: "You seem to be so egotistic (or simply too lazy or inept) to even bother putting up real evidence; you rely entirely on strutting bullying (rather like the somewhat inadequate Wizard of Oz who hid behind a screen with a large megaphone)."

What evidence Jom, you certainly do not have any, neither do those you link to and quote. Rather weird that what you refer to as "bullying" is in fact nothing more than your attention being drawn to the glaring inconsistencies and flaws in your arguments that you simply cannot address, which is why if either myself, Keith A or bobad put up detail you cannot counter or challenge it - If we were just making things up it would be easily refuted.

7: "The New Sports stadium is yet a nother smokescreen - it has been cited as a probable site for the bodies, nothing more."

Not exactly true that is it Jom - IIRC it was YOU who stated as though it was an established fact that the numbers required to make up your mythical 3,500 body count had been buried under a sports stadium by the Israelis in "secret". I merely asked you to name the stadium and explain how on earth it could have possibly been done under the glare of media interest prevalent on the scene at the time. Your response to this was as usual, deflection, bluster and personal attack.

8: "It seems to be the only straw you have to grasp now that your bulldozers have driven off into the sunset."

Not at all Jom, and besides IIRC they were YOUR bulldozers, I merely pointed out to you that you cannot excavate a mass grave in secret in a populated urban area with that type of machine. You have yet to explain how it could be done.

9: "If you have any evidence that this massacre didn't happen"

I have never made any claim that the massacre never happened. I have said that there is no proof that 3,500 people were killed, as you have always bandied this figure about as though it were a fact - it is not, it is an estimate that differs wildly from all others conducted and verified at the time.

10: "that the Israeli role wasn't as it has been described"

You have always stated that the IDF was directly responsible - it wasn't and both Inquiries, one International and one Israeli, make that clear, the closest they come to it is a statement to the effect that the IDF must shoulder some responsibility for probably being indirectly responsible for what occurred.

11: "that Israeli didn't appoint the individual their own enquiry cited as being responsible, Prime Minister of Israel, and by doing so, giving their blessing for the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees, then present it."

As Minister of Defence at the time I believe that they sacked him or forced his resignation. Him then winning a subsequent democratic election and becoming Prime Minister is not connected in any way to the events that happened in 1982 in Beirut. You and your "sources" have still to prove for definite that 3,500 refugees were indeed massacred. Going on to become a head of government, or indeed a head of state after previously misdeeds is not uncommon, after all Jom one ony has to look at Eamon de Valera - directly responsible for the deaths of ~6,000 Irish Citizens and inflicting needless damage on the economy of his country they elected him to both offices without any sort qualms of conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:47 AM

"There is the israeli version of events,"
Quite -
Since when has "we didn't do it guv" amounted to a challenge?
Nobody outside Israel has ever challenged the facts of the case.
Even Israel's own verdict is invalid as it appointed the person it found culpable Prime Minister
You do not give such a position to somebody you have found guilty of a crime unless you support that crime

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:33 AM

Steve
Ruth Smeeth is persecuting Corbyn, who she hates, with lies, smears, exaggerations and stage-managed histrionics.

More wild accusations that you can not substantiate Steve.
The police and the parliamentary authority do not act on lies, smears, exaggerations and stage-managed histrionics.

She is anti-Corbyn, but so are 80% of Labour MPs.

You're a solid member of the far right, remember?

No. I am a middle of the road former Labour voter, and hope to be again.

Because she's a liar who MAKES UP SHIT, she will not succeed. Obviously, you can't see it

The police and parliamentary authority can't see it either.
You wild accusations against this woman are the made up shit here Steve.

You are a troll for raising this dead issue yet again.
That would be Greg Steve.
And the Standard piece is all quotes of Smeeth. No editorial spin. It is genuine.

Jim,
Nobody has mounted a serious challenge to the events during that time other than the Israelis in the form of their own enquiry.

There is the israeli version of events, which is infinitely more credible than the wild propaganda you believe, and which all decent governments accept without question.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 03:30 AM

Still nothing but opinions - no evidence whatever to back up your claims.
The exaggeration of Jenin was exposed immediately - the facts of Sabra/Shatila have been a established for decades.
Nobody has mounted a serious challenge to the events during that time other than the Israelis in the form of their own enquiry.
Even the role the Americans played in covering up this massacre has been long established, by American Human Rights Groups - it's all been put up.
It is a matter of documented history, not opinion, certainly not yours.
You seem to be so egotistic (or simply too lazy or inept) to even bother putting up real evidence; you rely entirely on strutting bullying (rather like the somewhat inadequate Wizard of Oz who hid behind a screen with a large megaphone).
If you have anything new to add, do so.
The New Sports stadium is yet another smokescreen - it has been cited as a probable site for the bodies, nothing more.
It seems to be the only straw you have to grasp now that your bulldozers have driven off into the sunset.
If you have any evidence that this massacre didn't happen, or that the Israeli role wasn't as it has been described, or that Israeli didn't appoint the individual their own enquiry cited as being responsible, Prime Minister of Israel, and by doing so, giving their blessing for the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees, then present it.
So far, you have offered somewhat pathetic denials, with nothing whatever to back them up - nothing!
I really am not interested in your blustering opinions, but I would be fascinated if you produced a single scrap of evidence to back up your claims instead of your bullying and strutting bluster.
In the meantime, I'll quite happily accept your display of arrogant ignorance, after all, that's the image you seem happy to present to the world.
Carry on corporal.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 02:46 AM

Jim Carroll - 21 Sep 16 - 11:46 AM - If memory serves me correctly there were equally "convincing" stories told in the aftermath of the so-called "Jenin Massacre". The only thing that spoilt that particular attempt to smear Israel's reputation was that over the course of the following five months all those the IDF were accused of killing except for one turned up alive, safe and well. Yet Fatah apologists still yammer on about the hundreds "killed" or "murdered" by the IDF in Jenin. You are doing the same with regard to Sabra-Shatila, you are taking the highest possible body count that is always mentioned as being an unverified "estimate" then taking it as being a fact - plain truth is it is not a fact according to links you yourself have provided.

Bulldozer Jom;

Bulldozer



- Note it has a straight or slightly angled blade, it can push stuff but can't pick anything up

- Even if fitted with a scoop or a bucket, it has no means of tilting or tipping that scoop or bucket to empty it.

So back to the questions that you yourself should have asked had you been of an inquiring mind:

1: If as your "eye-witnesses" stated no Israelis entered the camps who was it operating these bulldozers?

2: As bulldozers are incapable of digging holes, who was it that dug these "secret" mass graves, when were they dug and what was used to dig them?

3: You claim, or believe claims that a "secret mass grave" exists in Beirut that contains the bodies of the majority of the 3,500 people you believe were slain. You believe that a Sports Stadium was built over this grave. The only stadium that could possibly be is the Camille Chamoun Stadium, here is some relevant information for you Jom -

"The stadium was completely demolished in the Israeli Invasion of 1982. Consequently, former Lebanese PM Rafic Hariri {1992 to 1998} initiated a project to rebuild the stadium in preparation for the 2000 AFC Asian Cup. The reconstruction received funding from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, with a respective contribution of 20 Million and 5Million U.S. Dollars. The other 75 Million U.S. Dollars were provided by the Lebanese government. The renovation process of the bordering "Pierre Gemayel Hall" was also included in the overall project.

Designed by Laceco Architects & Engineers, the stadium spans 50,000 square meters of space with 77,000 square meters of covering roofs and seven kilometers of fences. A presidential gallery of 37 seats towers over the pitch, fenced off by bullet-proof glass. In addition to a 600 square meter parking lot was built underneath the stadium and another 20,000 square meter lot outside. The structure is capable of absorbing earthquakes up to 8.6 degree on the Richter scale. Moreover, administration offices, a complex for Lebanon's Olympic committee and various other sports federations, ultra-modern press centers, clinics to handle emergencies among players and spectators with a parking lot for ambulances and fire engines, have been built beneath the stands.

An indoors sports complex north to the stadium was built with a 3,300-strong spectator capacity for basketball, volleyball and gymnastics. This part was scheduled to be completed by 1998.

Kvarner, the contracting company, says that 25 British and 115 Lebanese engineers toiled along with 850 Lebanese and Arab workers to rebuild the sports city that was originally inaugurated by the late president Camille Chamoun in 1957.

After the reconstruction, the stadium hosted the 1997 pan Arab games where the Lebanese president Elias El Hrawi delivered an opening speech saying: "From Lebanon we say to the world; the Lebanese have returned to their heritage and unity, they have returned to build a Lebanon for heroes, youth and peace." The Lebanese PM also delivered a speech saying: "Construction won over destruction, and peace over war." Finally, the president of the Pan Arab Committee said: "This is a tournament of solidarity between the Lebanese people who have established credibility in their country and given rise to this great sporting event". "Bombs can destroy a city but can never shake the faith of believers." Additionally, the stadium was the main venue for the 1999 Arab Championship, the 2000 AFC Asian Cup, and recently the sixth Jeux de la Francophonie held from September 27 to October 3 of 2009.

In 2015, however, to serve the Lebanese team during the 2018 FIFA World Cup qualification, the stadium is once again rebuilt.

Still think that there is a "Secret Mass Grave" under this Sports Stadium - it is after all the only Sports Stadium in the vicinity of the Sabra-Shatila Camp.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 04:28 PM

Ruth Smeeth is persecuting Corbyn, who she hates, with lies, smears, exaggerations and stage-managed histrionics. You know something Keith? You HATE the Labour Party. You LOVE to seek out the "liars," the "hypocrites," the "lefties," the "antisemites" and everyone else you think you can find negatives about. Yet when you think you've found someone, no matter who it is, no matter how much they lack principles, who says the slightest thing that suits your twisted and hateful agenda, you embrace them as if they've been your lifelong friend. Well Keith, she's LABOUR. Get it, Keith? She's one of your enemies. You're a solid member of the far right, remember? You can't have her. She's as nasty as everyone else in Labour to you, Keith! So why don't you just bugger off, you massive hypocrite. I repeat. Smeeth is a charlatan who is doing everything in her power to diss Corbyn. Because she's a liar who MAKES UP SHIT, she will not succeed. Obviously, you can't see it as you're politically totally blind. You have form on that score as we all know. Totally incapable of seeing two sides of any issue. You are a troll for raising this dead issue yet again. And PLEASE don't give me your bloody Evening Standard tabloid shite. I've laughed enough at you already and the corset shop is closed.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:54 PM

Not so, Bubo, but do keep up with the same old delusions.

This from Keith's link on Ruth Smeeth:

Given her previous work with Hope Against Hate, an anti-racism charity, "I initially assumed [the author] was from the far-Right. And then someone rang to inform me it was a Corbynista."

Same bigotry, different target - you're the one who's deluded. No surprise though as you identify with this group.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:21 PM

Paste in this link.
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/ruth-smeeth-ive-never-seen-antisemitism-in-labour-like-this-its-normal-now-a3349201.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 03:19 PM

Steve,
Ruth Smeeth is a charlatan, a liar

Can you substantiate your wild accusations?
No.
You are just running with the pack that is persecuting this woman.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:56 PM

Not so, Bubo, but do keep up with the same old delusions. Makes it easier to ignore you.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:53 PM

Greg, alt-right/alt-left = two sides of the same coin.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:53 PM

Same here. Evening bloody Standard anyway. Kind of glad I couldn't open it. Useless. Talk about scraping the barrel.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 01:08 PM

Can't open the link, but it sounds like desperation to me
She is what she is, she consorts with and supports CORRUPT and PROMISCUOUS politicians like Netanyahu.
Would you buy a used car from this woman?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 12:42 PM

Ruth Smeeth is a charlatan, a liar and an arch anti-Corbynite who is out to make trouble for him by any means, including foul. We have been over all this. You are out of order bringing this up again. You've already made yourself a laughing stock over this issue, so do yourself a favour and drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 12:18 PM

It does not compare to this

Correct, professor. Its infinately worse. I don't see any Labour members supporting White Supremecist groups and making jokes aboput The Holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 11:46 AM

"So Jom 3,500 people were killed were they? - "
I produced evidence suggesting that was the figure - so far you have produced.... well.. denials.
You prove they weren't
The facts won't #go away by your wishing them to.
As I said, doesn't matter anyway - if it was 350 it would be mass-murder facilitated by Israel.
How did Bulldozers help bury bodies - probably the same as they did when they were photographed at Mecca removing the dead.
Or maybe the same way my old man did when he dug holes with the fitted scoop to bury the dredge from the Manchester Ship Canal.
Ten bulldozers were confirmed to have entered the site following whitewash
Didn't your boozing mate mention them - tut-tut??
These are not "my" claims - they have all been linked to reports.
You have provided nothing - and Keith continues
with his "Israel didn't do nuffin guv"
Not waving but drowning, as the poet said
Give us something solid, for cryin' out loud - the pair of you have long blown your credibility.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 11:41 AM

No Greg. It does not compare to this (9 hours ago)

Ruth Smeeth: 'I've never seen anti-Semitism in Labour like this, it's normal now'

"Since then she has been called a "yid c***" (among other racial slurs), a "CIA/ MI5/Mossad informant"(see Jim's accusation of this too), a "dyke", and a "f***ing traitor". In all she's experienced more than 25,000 incidents of abuse, much of it racial. "

"And yet because of threats from her own party, Smeeth now has "security" — organised by the parliamentary authority and police. She can't give exact details but says she won't be going to Labour conference alone on Sunday. "

"I don't talk about Israel or Palestine. This [abuse] is not about anything I've said on Middle-East politics. I don't participate." She describes herself as "culturally Jewish" — her husband is Irish Catholic."
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/ruth-smeeth-ive-never-seen-antisemitism-in-labour-like-this-its-normal-now-a3349

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Sep 16 - 09:40 AM

Ya want anti-semitism, Bubo? Here's the real deal:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/21/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-skittles.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 07:30 AM

Once again facts and history trump propaganda and rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 16 - 04:52 AM

So Jom 3,500 people were killed were they? - PROVE IT ( None of the links you provided in your post Jim Carroll - 15 Sep 16 - 10:49 AM claims anything like that the only number they seem to mention was 300 for Sabra-Shatila and of course mention of the Jenin Massacre which of course we later learned never occurred)
.

Keith A has accurately given the verifiable numbers killed in addition to the most probable estimates. And HE HAS provided you with the sources to check the figures

It was sort of like the 1.5 million who were supposed to have been killed in Iraq, but of course we all know now that that was pure fantasy based on a particularly dodgy survey. IBC who did make the effort to verify details put the numbers at less than a tenth of that figure and attributed the majority of those killed as being killed by the insurgents.

You still haven't told us how a bulldozer can dig a mass grave Jom, and that IS what you said they did. None of your eye witnesses said that the Israelis entered the camps and if that is true how could they be inside the camps where all the killing was done driving bulldozers? Who was it dug the graves before the bulldozers arrived? What did they use to dig them? We know from your eye witnesses and accounts from the ICRC and the Lebanese that they did the clean up, yet for some reason best known to yourself you dismiss their accounts and their figures.

Neither have you come up with any reason why it was that in Muslim dominated Lebanon during the Syrian occupation of that country that this "secret" mass grave hidden beneath a Sports Stadium was not dug up to expose all these thousands that the IDF were supposed to have killed and buried? The obvious reason of course Jom is that no such "secret" mass grave exists and that your figure of 3,500 is a gross exaggeration and 100% propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 09:27 PM

Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers complete with link

He may have said that IDF provided equipment used to bury the massacred Palestinians, but to and under the supervision of ICRC after Phalange left. The author I quoted, and DID provide a link to, makes clear that Morris denies any involvement of Israelis in the massacre or supposed cover up.

in fact your non-link points out that the lowest figures for the massacre are those presented by Israel

No Jim.
Israel estimated 800.
" According to a document which reached us (exhibit 151), the total number of victims whose bodies were found from 18.9.82 to 30.9.82 is 460. This figure includes the dead counted by the Lebanese Red Cross,< the International Red Cross, the Lebanese Civil Defense, the medical corps of the Lebanese army, and by relatives of the victims. According to this count, the 460 victims included 109 Lebanese and 328 Palestinians, along with Iranians, Syrians and members of other nationalities. According to the itemization of the bodies in this list, the great majority of the dead were males;as for women and children, there were 8 Lebanese women and 12 Lebanese children, and 7 Palestinian women and 8 Palestinian children."

"the Red Cross also had a list of 359 persons who had disappeared in West Beirut between 18 August and 20 September, with most of the missing having disappeared from Sabra and Shatilla in mid-September."

That would give a total of 819, but there would be overlap of victims not identified, and some were not victims of the camp massacre.

your ludicrous statements about the flares.
Not ludicrous at all. The flares support Israel's version, not yours.

deliberately not linking it becase not only was it a lying claim by the accused (Israel),

I have linked. I just assumed you were aware of the Kahan Report and could read it.

You are now denying opinions gathered by Benny Morris's book

No. The problem is that neither of us has read it, but we do know that he denies any IDF collusion.
He is an historian, not a gatherer of opinions.

Change of subject.
No-one watching tonight's Question Time could ever deny that "Whither the Labour Party is a live issue!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 03:20 PM

"Benny Morris said they were there to hide the number of deaths
He did not.
One more time
"Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.
complete with link
Ther are two more links to him having said the same.
You've been given the quote and the source
"Here is the easily found report of the Kahan Commission."
I've read the Kahan whitewash - in fact your non-link points out that the lowest figures for the massacre are those presented by Israel
"Sorry, but that is Israel's version of events"
Exactllt - and everything I have given contradicts Israel's version - as does the book you didn't link us to (deliberately)
No point in discussing with you pair of braindeads - you lie incessantly, you deny everything, and once again, you lie incessantly
The pair of you are a disgusting mess
You take up one thing - make stupid statements, them drop it (as you have your ludicrous statements about the flares.
Your dishonsty of attempting to produce something as fact, deliberately not linking it becase not only was it a lying claim by the accused (Israel), but the actual quote contains masses of evidence showing iIsrael to be everything I have claimed
That is lying - pure and simple.
You are now denying opinions gathered by Benny Morris's book
You mate seems to have pissed off to the pub to gather more evidence.
Might continue letting him humiliating himself tomorrow - you are just embarrassing.
It's like arguing with somebody with learning difficulties.
Christians - I've shit 'em!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 02:29 PM

Benny Morris said they were there to hide the number of deaths
He did not.

Here is the easily found report of the Kahan Commission.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/kahan.html

From the same source

Maybe, but not from the actual Kahan Commission Report.

Kahan Commision report (unlinked, of course - I wonder why?) - hardly unbiased evidence

Sorry, but that is Israel's version of events and nothing you have found contradicts it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:52 PM

"ICRC figures are less than Israel's!"
Your carefully unlinked statemment is just as carefully selected, hiding the fact that the bit you have carefully chosen is heavily disputed in the rest of the chapter and is no way a definitive statement
You have doctored it to make it appear fact, wnen it is actually the part of an arument
Which is, of course, why you didn't link it.
The rest of the book makes pretty interesting reading too!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:32 PM

Here is the exact situation over casualty numbers
C. Victims
The exact number of victims from the Sabra and Shatila massacre is not and will never be precisely known. Estimations have always varied widely between 700 to 3500. The lowest number (between 700 and 800 victims) has been produced by the IDF and was used by the Israeli Commission of inquiry, as « this may well be the number most closely corresponding to reality » (The Kahan Commisssion, 1983). The Lebanese authorities published higher figures in the middle of October 1982. According to official sources, casualties reached the number of 2 000, and are divided as follows: 762 identified corpses have been buried by the Lebanese army or the Red Cross, whereas 1200 others have been buried by families on their own initiative and registered with the Red Cross.
The Lebanese historian Bayan al-Hout (2004) conducted fieldwork between 1982 and 1984 on casualties in Sabra and Shatila. She identified 1390 cases: 906 dead and 484 "missing".
Amnon Kapeliouk, an Israeli journalist, worked on a reconstitution of the events soon after the slaughter. He based his personal inquiry upon primary sources, such as testimonies, IDF archives and declarations, press reports, evidences gathered by the Israeli Commission of inquiry, etc. and published the results of his research in 1982: Sabra and Shatila. Inquiry Into a Massacre (Sabra et Chatila: enquéte sur un massacre], which became a reference book.
In A. Kapeliouk's opinion, the number of victims reached 3 000 - 3 500. He added to the 2000 death formally listed and recognized by the Lebanese authorities three other kinds of victims:
-* Those who were buried in mass graves dug up by the assailants and whose bodies have not been brought up;
-* Those who died under the ruins of their houses;
-* The "missing" who were taken alive to unknown destinations and never returned. According to the Red Cross, the number of the "missing" reached 359 between the 18th and the 20th of September.
No estimation of the number of injured was given, but cases of mutilation are numerous.

SOURCE

From the same source
On the morning of Friday the 17th, new Phalangists' units entered the camps. At the height of the
assault, the militiamen were about 400. The killing went on all day long with its share of summary
executions, house demolitions, and looting of private goods such as money or jewellery. Corpses
were lying on the streets, abandoned under ruins or bulldozed in mass graves. Witnesses saw many
inhabitants piled up onto trucks and driven outside the camps to unknown destinations. Nobody
knows what became of them. They are the "missing" of the Sabra and Shatila massacre.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM

"No. Siegel said she only saw one. None were found to be burying bodies unless they were being used by ICRC."
You've had numerous statements referring to the number and what they were doing
Benny Morris saif they were there to hide the number of deaths - what's he a "self hating Jew!?
"The letter (exhibit 153) of the head of the Red Cross "
Kahan Commision report (unlinked, of course - I wonder why?) - hardly unbiased evidence
You have the estimates, including those done by an Israeli Journalist who attempted to count them
Pa-thet-ic - even by your standards
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 12:44 PM

Keith has refused to respond to the actual accusations of what Israel did

I have responded to all your ludicrous accusation!
AGAIN, SAY WHAT YOU THINK I HAVE MISSED AND I WILL RESPOND!

Israel said there was one bulldozer to clear up the rubble - there were found to be ten burying bodies.

No. Siegel said she only saw one. None were found to be burying bodies unless they were being used by ICRC.

Israel's record on keeping score on how many civilians they slaughtered is abominable - go and compare their claims with the actual figures.

ICRC figures are less than Israel's!

" The letter (exhibit 153) of the head of the Red Cross delegation to the Minister of Defense stated that Red Cross representatives had counted 328 bodies. This figure, however, does not include all the bodies, since it is known that a number of families buried bodies on their own initiative without reporting their actions to the Red Cross. The forces who engaged in the operation removed bodies in trucks when they left Shatilla, and it is possible that more bodies are lying under the ruins in the camps or in the graves that were dug by the assailants near the camps. The letter noted that the Red Cross also had a list of 359 persons who had disappeared in West Beirut between 18 August and 20 September, with most of the missing having disappeared from Sabra and Shatilla in mid-September. According to a document which reached us (exhibit 151), the total number of victims whose bodies were found from 18.9.82 to 30.9.82 is 460. This figure includes the dead counted by the Lebanese Red Cross, the International Red Cross, the Lebanese Civil Defense, the medical corps of the Lebanese army, and by relatives of the victims. According to this count, the 460 victims included 109 Lebanese and 328 Palestinians, along with Iranians, Syrians and members of other nationalities. According to the itemization of the bodies in this list, the great majority of the dead were males; as for women and children, there were 8 Lebanese women and 12 Lebanese children, and 7 Palestinian women and 8 Palestinian children. Reports from Palestinian sources speak of a far greater number of persons killed, sometimes even of thousands. With respect to the number of victims, it appears that we can rely neither on the numbers appearing in the document from Lebanese sources, nor on the numbers originating in Palestinian sources. A further difficulty in determining the number of victims stems from the fact that it is difficult to distinguish between victims of combat operations and victims of acts of slaughter. We cannot rule out the possibility that various reports included also victims of combat operations from the period antedating the assassination of Bashir. Taking into account the fact that Red Cross personnel counted no more that 328 bodies, it would appear that the number of victims of the massacre was not as high as a thousand, and certainly not thousands.
According to I.D.F. intelligence sources, the number of victims of the massacre is between 700 and 800 (testimony of the director of Military Intelligence, pp. 139-140). "

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 12:28 PM

""The implication is that the [Israeli Defense Forces] deliberately aided the killers," Morris writes. "This is essentially untrue." As proof, he references the Kahan Commission of Inquiry, which—he claims—comes to the conclusion that the Israeli army had been unaware that a massacre was taking place and that "when awareness finally dawned, it intervened and stopped it. "
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-benny-morris-gets-wrong-about-my-book-11601

The ICRC supervised the burials, and it may well be that the IDF supplied them with equipment to bury the bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 12:22 PM

How about responding to what has been said about the Bulldozers - including by a prominent and respected Israeli historian, instead of trying to throw up yet another smokescreen
Keith has refused to respond to the actual accusations of what Israel did - wanna try your luck?
No
Thought not.
I concede that my "sham" evidence has been overwhelmingly proved to be just that - whoops - sorry, you have yet to put up any (except from your mate at closing time!!!)
Stop bullshitting and dogdging behind something that is not being disputed Answer the points
If my evidence is "sham" - disprove it with some of your own.
Jim Carroll

Israel said there was one bulldozer to clear up the rubble - there were found to be ten burying bodies.
Israel's record on keeping score on how many civilians they slaughtered is abominable - go and compare their claims with the actual figures.
According to the Israeli military, the official count was 700 people killed while Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk put the figure at 3,500.
"In his book published soon after the massacre,[77] the Israeli journalist Amnon Kapeliouk of Le Monde Diplomatique, arrived at about 2,000 bodies disposed of after the massacre from official and Red Cross sources and "very roughly" estimated 1,000 to 1,500 other victims disposed of by the Phalangists themselves to a total of 3,000–3,500."

Gaza 2015
"In its most recent count, the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that 2,104 Palestinians were killed in Gaza, including 1,462 civilians, among them 495 children and 253 women. Those U.N. numbers would mean that 69 percent of the total killed were civilians.
By contrast, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said this week that Israeli forces­ had killed "approximately 1,000 terrorists," which would mean that far fewer of the 2,104 Palestinian dead were civilians — roughly 52 percent.
Israeli military forces­ pride themselves on being "the most moral army in the world." The Palestinians say Israeli bombardment was frequently indiscriminate or directed at targets where the risk of civilian casualties was high.
In Israel, critics charge that the U.N. numbers are inaccurate and biased, in part because the United Nations bases its reports on numbers generated by human rights groups working in Gaza, which they say cannot be trusted."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 11:52 AM

Oh dear, oh dear Jim, in a couple of those links of yours you have your sources still rabbiting on about the alleged massacre at Jenin that we all now definitely know never happened, a story founded and based on deliberate lies told by the Palestinians.

Nowhere in any of that sham "evidence" does it state that 3,500 people were killed, nowhere in any of that sham "evidence" does it state that Israelis killed anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 10:49 AM

Whoops - premature ejaculation
Start again.
"He has never said any such thing! Where do you get this shit?"
I don't suppose you intend either to withdraw this or apologise for the accusation but the quote came from here (too large to blue clickie, I suspect
https://books.google.ie/books?id=ltg-UV-ddDgC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=Benny+Morris,+in+Israel%27s+Secret+Wars,+stated+that+Israeli+forces+provided+the+bulldozers+used+to+bury+the+massacred+Palestinians.&source=bl&ots=w1gPnpm1Rn&sig=vKmNVuVFUapjMbsLLJqVNu4ReUo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNkYGLxpHPAhXJAcAKHfZdBa4Q6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%2C%20in%20Israel's%20Secret%20Wars%2C%20stated%20that%20Israeli%20forces%20provided%20the%20bulldozers%20used%20to%20bury%20the%20massacred%20Palestinians.&f=false
The information is repeated here - also too large to clickie - that qoote was
"The Israeli writer Benny Morris alleges that the IDF provided bulldozers to bury as many dead as possible so as to lessen the grim impact of the event."
https://books.google.ie/books?id=-wwPNjSnxcYC&pg=PA644&lpg=PA644&dq=Benny+Morris+on+Sabra+Bulldozers&source=bl&ots=rqSBTI6geU&sig=VF7jO3o35b0b-HB1i9ggsDucIxY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw79KGxZHPAhWFLsAKHUh8AVYQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=Benny%20Morris%20on%20Sabra%20Bulldozers&f=false

And here
Benny Morris, in Israel's Secret Wars, stated that Israeli forces provided the bulldozers used to bury the massacred Palestinians.
Bulldozers

The same information is here
"They dug a big hole in the ground. I saw them filling it in today. They had a big bulldozer pushing dirt in on top of it."
Eye witness account

Ang Swee's statement
I worked in Gaza Hospital in Sabra Shatilla during the massacre trying to save the lives of a few dozen people, but outside the hospital hundreds were killed. My patients and I knew that Sharon and his officers were in control, and without them the massacre would not be possible. The residents of Sabra Shatilla could at least have escaped. Now more than 30 years later, we know that the killers were brought in by Israeli armoured cars and tanks, obeyed Israeli commands, their paths lit by Israeli military flares, and some of them also wore Israeli uniforms. The mutilated bodies of the victims were thrown into mass graves by Israeli bulldozers.
Eye Witness account

Fortunately for the physician, by about 5 P.M. Friday, an International Red Cross convoy made it to the hospital and evacuated everyone left there. The doctor said that at about 5:30 P.M., as he was leaving the facility for safety, he saw at the southern end of Shatila what he estimated to be 80 to 90 bodies. They had been mixed together with sand and were being pushed by bulldozers.
Eye witness doctor

How much more information do you want before you provide a shred of your own?
Jim Carroll