BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:54 AM

Going back a bit, anyone who said anything bad about Jimmy Saville, or about police/government behaviour over Hillsborough would have been called a "conspiracy theorist".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:00 AM

I think the real point is that Mr Corbyn is unlikely to survive as leader of a socialist party with no socialist representatives.
Skeletons will continue to be unearthed by a disgusting, dirt delving media, and a system which sees any alternative to jungle law as enathema

The contradictions are starting to show once again. The movement needs to go back to the grass roots, forget about government and concentrate on education; which is difficult when political representation is equated to a career opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 16 - 07:26 PM

"extraordinary powers"... what.. like supernatural super hero mesmerising mind controls powers...???

that'd be well cool....!!!

I'll have to ask my mum if anyone on her side of the family could do that and can let me in on the secrets..... 😎


Though in reality, it's probably less fantasy sci fi conspiracy theory explanation
and more likely just plain old mundane covert intelligence agency influence & interference with UK political parties and media...??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 May 16 - 07:02 PM

But instigated by 'who' and 'why' now...???

Definitely a conspiracy instigated by Jews/Zionists in order to discredit Corbyn and the Labour party. They tricked Labour party members into making antisemitic comments so that they would reveal themselves as being antisemites. The Jews/Zionists, besides controlling world banking, governments and the media, have extraordinary powers to effect people into saying things that they don't really mean. This is but only one way these nefarious people exert their will upon the unsuspecting.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 16 - 12:47 PM

Conspiracy theory....???

This current rancid attack on Corbyn's allies and leadership stinks so obviously of a strategically timed orchestrated smear campaign
to ferment divisive internal disruption and hostilities within the Labour party.

But instigated by 'who' and 'why' now...???

This shoul be a good conspiracy guessing game over the bank holiday...

The outrage being generated is so over exaggerated and phoney
that the stooges in the frontline of the media attack
are just making themselves look very stupid...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:21 AM

I know you were Akenaton and thank you for it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:16 AM

Just joking Raggytash.....I'm sure you have a point.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:14 AM

Ah ......... there may be an element of truth in that, but who told you that I was.

On a more realistic note Akenaton just happening to be were he knew Ken Livingstone was going to be and just happening to have a TV crew at hand and to behave as he did in front of a TV instead of in private you have to ask yourself some questions about the validity of the whole scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:05 AM

Because you're a conspiracy theorist? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 05:26 AM

Why can't I help but feel it was a set up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:45 AM

I am with SPB:

"Why cant Livingston And Mann (and loads of others) shut their stupid mouths. Mann should know better than pick a public fight one week before the Mayor election, but hey who gives a f*** about all the hours of hard work - canvassing and leafleting that people who really care about the election have done"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:33 AM

Sorry for the missing apostrophe in can't. I will be back out canvassing and leafleting for the next 9 hours

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:24 AM

Why cant Livingston And Mann shut their stupid mouths. Mann should know better than pick a public fight one week before the Mayor election, but hey who gives a f*** about all the hours of hard work - canvassing and leafleting that people who really care about the election have done. Does Mann care if Goldsmith wins the mayor election and ordinary Londoners face increased fares, and are finally kicked out of the capital because of house prices, or forced to live in 3 x 3 metre homes with shared bathrooms and cooking facilities and pay over £1,000 for the privilege. But why should he give a toss, he has a safe seat and he gets his face in the Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 06:24 AM

Mann is a loathsome traitor to the Labour cause, and the deliberate trap complete with film crew that he laid should see him expelled from the Labour party.

I noted that when Ken was suspending the charge was not directly anti-Semitism but 'bringing the party into disrepute', and if that related to a somewhat intemperate row in front of the media, Mann is every bit as guilty.

Like Richard, I was pretty convinced what Ken actually said was historically accurate (unlike Mann's comments), so I looked them up and I think his case is solid, providing you interpret wanting the Jews to go to Israel to be supportive of Zionism (and remember the accusers are repeatedly saying that only means "having the right to a self governing state of Israel") But since when has being historically accurate mattered much against emotional appeals?

As to headline question: whither the Labour Party? Much depends on how the May 5th elections turn out. The bitterites will stress every loss of a seat and ignore every win; the Corbynites will do the reverse. That is, politics as normal. It will only differ from this if there is a complete collapse of one side or the other, which isn't very likely.

As an aside, I heard a clever parody of "Benjamin Bowmaneer" at the club last night "I'll tell how the wars began, Anthony Blair-i-o.."
That still has a huge impact on the 'whither Labour' question.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 02:07 AM

Sorry - didn't finish.
Having said that, it is the responsibility of politicians and others in the public eye to choose their words carefully - the social network can be a bit of a pain in the arse, especially after closing time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 02:04 AM

Thanks to Israeli efforts, criticism of Israel and Antisemitism have become indistinguishable.
This campaign has become a knee-jerk reaction of at least one regular contributor to this forum who has disappeared since the new rule of allowing only members to post to BS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 01:35 AM

I rather like Ken Livingstone and think he has been rather naïve over this, but surely the "liberal" left including Richard indulge in this sort of behaviour all the time?

It is becoming impossible to discuss controversial subjects anywhere without being attacked verbally.

Discussions on immigration become "racism", health rates "homophobia", support for anyone but Mrs Clinton "misogyny".
Take your pick.......Political Correctness rules.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:28 PM

Has Livingstone been proven by any decent sensible reasonable standards to be any kind of racist ?

He may be a bit of a dick with a tongue in cheek sense of humour that is deliberately misconstrued by enemies determined to find things to be offended by..

but a racist ?????

This whole pernicious poisonous "I call you that thing, so therefore you are that thing" tactic employed by the labour traitors over the last few days
just shows some of them them up to be desperate pathetic shites.

Then there are all the cowards who fail to back up Livingstone for fear of being called that thing themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:15 PM

" the fact that the USA (terrified of its Jewish lobby) used war debt to bully the UK into capitulating to Zionist terrorism in 1948"

Absolutely dying to hear the substantive evidence that backs that statement up. Great Britain relinquished and gave up its League of Nations Mandate precisely when it should have done. Nothing whatsoever to do with the USA or any bullying. The floor is yours Bridge let's hear the detail.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM

Bridge defending antisemites......is anyone surprised by that?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 PM

The assertions of antisemitism (in the usual meanings of the word) in the Labour party are conjurations. The criticisms of Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone are part of a concerted attempt by two interest groups to undermine the Labour party (with the local elections coming), to undermine Jeremy Corbyn (who seeks to defend the Palestinians from Zionist oppression) and to weaponise the assertion that criticism of Israel and its vile government and its murderous armed forces are antisemitic. One such group is the Zionists, and the other is the bitterites, who would rather see Labour lose an election than accept that the Labour has roundly rejected con-servative lite policies such as those of Tony B.Liar.

There have been attempts since at least 2005 to insert criticism of Israel into conventional definitions of antisemitism.

The Naz Shah meme most complained of was a witty rejoinder to the fact that the USA (terrified of its Jewish lobby) used war debt to bully the UK into capitulating to Zionist terrorism in 1948, and has at least recently been subsidising the Israeli military (and thus the US weapons manufacturing sector) with vast sums of money. Israel has nuclear weapons modern warplanes and white phosphorus. Palestine in general and Gaza in particular have none. The Israeli forces kill about 160 Palestinians for every Israeli killed by Palestinians. Some of the people the Israeli armed forces summarily execute are children with their hands tied behind their backs.

Ken Livingstone was and remains historically accurate - and the quite remarkable thing is that the loathsome Netanyahu made exactly the same point about the Haaretz agreement.

Another fascinating thing is that the hasbara have also claimed the scalp of a young aide appointed by Sanders to improve his Jewish vote.

Mann is a loathsome traitor to the Labour cause, and the deliberate trap complete with film crew that he laid should see him expelled from the Labour party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 10:40 AM

Just like here the shit always rises to the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:28 AM

Nicely deflects any media criticism away from the present government for a day or two.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:02 AM

"Not just the right wing media."
Where does any of this contradict anything I have put up about Israeli Antisemitism in implicating the entire Jewish population in Isreli atrocities - is the press now made up of "real historians" who sell their books in "real bookshops"?
The Israeli have devised a technique of dismissing criticism of all their atrocities as anti-Semitic and to a degree, they have been successful
Doesn't make the Israeli regime any less Antisemitic.
If to criticise Israel is Antisemitic - Erinstein, Haaretz, the former heads of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families are Antisemites.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:40 AM

Last time I was a daily Guardian reader was over 30 years ago...

I presume it's perhaps even more comfy liberal middle class these days.. hardly socialist worker / morning star ....???

So these out of context extracts don't exactly do much but demonstrate reasonably neutral objective reporting.

The unattributed "grotesque analogies" quote might veer towards opinionated reporting.. perhaps..????


In the bigger game of 'divide and rule' the Guardian is surely of not much consequence...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM

Not just the right wing media.

Labour antisemitism crisis: party deals with fallout of Livingstone suspension – live
The Guardian‎ - 23 mins ago
Ken Livingstone leaves his home in London after being suspended from the Labour party.
Ken Livingstone's 'grotesque analogies' unite the national press
The Guardian‎ - 4 hours ago
Ken Livingstone must be thrown out of Labour. He's had his last second chance
The Guardian‎ - 1 hour ago
More news for guardian livingstone
Ken Livingstone | Politics | The Guardian
www.theguardian.com/politics/livingstone
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Is this self-ignited firestorm the end for Ken Livingstone ...
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4 hours ago - As the Guardian said: "With singular crassness, instead of clearing the air ... The Times viewed Livingstone's "grotesque analogies" and ...
Ken Livingstone must be thrown out of Labour. He's had his ...
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1 hour ago - London Mayor Ken Livingstone at the Labour party conference in 2005. 'As in all groups ... Photograph: Dan Chung for the Guardian. Contact ...
Ken Livingstone suspended from Labour after Hitler remarks ...
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18 hours ago - Labour has suspended the former London mayor Ken Livingstone "for bringing the party into disrepute" after MPs accused of him of ...
Ken Livingstone's Hitler remarks spark Labour calls for ...
www.theguardian.com › Politics › Ken Livingstone
18 hours ago - Labour is facing numerous calls to suspend the former London mayor Ken Livingstone after he was accused of antisemitism and making ...
Timeline: events leading to Ken Livingstone suspensi

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:00 AM

"Thanks for clearing that up Jim."
You are very welcome.
Is it not part of the European definition that an attempt to equate the actions of the Israeli regime with the Jewish People as a whole is "antisemitic"?
Is it not true that the knee-jerk response of the Israeli regime is to describe any criticism as "Antisemitism", even to describing the Untied nations as such and attempting to have the International Criminal Court closed down to avoid standing trial for the mass killings of civilians and destruction of hospitals and homes of Palestinians?
Yes ort no will do, but I would prefer 'no' to be qualified with facts rather than just denials.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 AM

Yet another cynical contrived opportunistic attack on Corbyn from enemies within the party, and the right wing media..

[ not so much from the tories this time as they need his support on EU ]

The BBC news was shamefully biased yesterday
- shows how much The Beeb has been tamed and shackled by the corporate right in the last few years.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:45 AM

So its all Israel's fault!
Thanks for clearing that up Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM

The Labour Party has fallen victim to the Israeli campaign to implicate the Jewish people in their terrorism - to them, anybody who criticises Israel is "Antisemitic".
By definition, the Israeli regime is Antisemitic and has caused the current rise in Antisemitism - they have painted a target on the backs of every Jew on the planet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:00 AM

It's partly about the slippery slope between criticism of the State of Israel which is sometimes called Anti-Zionism and criticism of all or most Jewish people which is sometimes called Antisemitism.

The first is generally regarded as legitimate, the second as racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:00 AM

Dunno Keith, do tell....

Subject: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 03:49 AM

Only a few months into JC's leadership and they are in real trouble.
What is it with the hard left and anti-semitism?