BS: Feelings = Facts

Subject: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:04 PM

This is by far the most destructive false equivalency of the many false equivalencies that are emerging worldwide but especially in the UK and USA. It is responsible for the Brexit vote and soon elections in the US.

Mother Teresa May's Boris Johnson is the Fluke of Dumbledore's UK's foreign secretary is also in charge of creating false equivalencies second only to Trump.

Its been some time since Stephen Colbert's term "Truthiness" has reminded us of the dangers of the false equivalency.

It is important to learn to see the Feelings equals Facts ruse.
I always warned of this as being a hypnotic technique when used for evil is very evil.

Perhaps a few examples would make things crystal clear;
There are people who feel like believing something to be true is the same as something being true.
People sometimes emphasize feelings over facts like:
Obama is a Muslim.
The vast majority of people today do not feel safe
The whole economy feels stuck.
It feels like we have lost the war on Islam terrorism.
It feels like Jews are the real bullies...

There are many bright eyed rational members here who do state the clarity of facts only to be assailed by someone's feeing's about those facts.

People bring feelings to a fact fight.
If the topic were meta physics that might be acceptable, but not politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:16 PM

Are you sure about this or do you just feel it to be true?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:31 PM

Both
I need only ask you if Obama is an American citizen then we would both know the true purpose of your question is either levity or agenda.

The big problem is exacerbated by the fact that feelings create stronger memories than certain imperative facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:45 PM

I feel insulted at being told I am delusional for voting for Brexit by an American.

My vote for Brexit was based on observed facts and preferred future options. Americas preference for A UK contained in Europe is a result of American national self interest. My preference for a UK outside the EU is a concern for the UK's national self interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 05:26 PM

Same here Stanron. My vote for Brexit was, like yours, based on my own judgement and evaluation of facts. I am a University graduate with a reasonably informed mind, and I am quite capable of deciding how I stand on political matters in my own country, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:17 PM

Outside the UK, I don't know how well known this (possibly apocryphal) quote from Harold Macmillan is, when he was asked what a prime minister most feared: "Events, dear boy, events".

I was for Remain, but would certainly not claim those who voted to leave were deluded. Along with all the stuff that was said, both those voting to stay and remain were given an almost impossible task to judge which approach would put us in the better position to deal with completely unpredictable "events" not just those we can predict, (with varying degrees of accuracy). And to be honest I think how we deal with such things is more important than whether any given statement from either side was true, spun, or wholly false.

Now my judgment is that more events will need a cooperative approach with a body like the EU, whereas others may think what counts is the flexibility of being able to take decisions on your own without talking to a host of other counties with possibly conflicting objectives. But that is what it is: a judgement not, essentially, a factual analysis.

And that is the key question for Trump vs Hilary: what is each voter's judgement on how each will react to unexpected events.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:19 PM

These are perfect examples how feelings create ones reality which is not in accord with the facts.

As everyone can see I never said anything about anyone being delusional or not in possession of their own life or thoughts.

Upon second look you can see the topic is about false equivalency with an attempt at humor at Boris Johnson's expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:33 PM

Donuel wrote: false equivalency ... is responsible for the Brexit vote....

Surely this means that my judgements pre voting were false. I believed they were correct so you must be saying that I was deluded in making those judgements. Can you sustain your theory and accept that my judgements were correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 07:08 PM

Ah Ha   finally a key question by DMcG

Yes people who will vote for Trump will do so based mostly upon their feelings since candidates like Trump can create certain feelings and for those people who sense feelings equal facts, therefor candidates can create "facts" upon which people can make judgments.

My mistake is probably making a false equivalency between the Brexit vote and a US election. However the google search's of Brexit a day after the vote demonstrate many people did vote without a clear factual foundation and probably voted based upon how they were introduced to and experienced the question.

A good example in the US is how Gingrich admits that certain facts presented by democrats such as crime going down by 20% may be technically true it is a "fact" most people feel the opposite is true.

I thought this was understood with the saying "you can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts".

It seems to me Trump is proving that wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 07:55 PM

I haven't a clue as to whether Stanron or anyone else voted for leaving the EU because they are delusional, though the only possible alternative to it is that they have a personal vested interest in getting out. The vast majority of people, Stanron and Senoufou included for all I know, fell for a pack of lies about how much the EU "costs" us (figures fed to the public were wildly and quite deliberately exaggerated, and no account was taken in any case of the return we get for our input in terms of getting the skilled workers that we fail to train ourselves and the less fiscally tangible benefits from cultural exchange and free movement of people), not to speak of the squalid racism perpetrated by the brexiteers apropos of immigrants swamping our towns and villages, living on benefits, driving our wages down, taking over our housing and filling our schools with kids who can't speak English, etc. etc., and how we need to "take back control" (even though more people come to the UK from outside the EU, immigration that we could control if the brexiteers were telling us the truth, but which we signally don't control). Take away those packs of lies from the argument and there is not one rational reason on earth for voting to leave. I simply don't swallow the "educated brexiteers" argument. Start from the standpoint that the vision of a united Europe came about because no-one wanted any more of the kinds of brutal wars in Europe that uselessly killed so many millions, led to the Holocaust and impoverished so many countries for decades. I was never called up to fight and neither was my son, for which I'm eternally grateful to the EU and its predecessors. Yes the EU suffers from bureaucratic gigantism, but so does China, Russia and the US, and the EU is a damn sight more democratic than any of those (and, before I get shrieks of outrage from the US, the EU does not have a gun lobby that's more powerful than your President, a pro-Israel lobby of the kind that will turn any politician who criticises Israel into toast and an oil lobby that prevents advances in fighting global warming, none of them ever having obtained a single vote from the electorate, so spare me the Land Of The Free stuff for a minute). I'd remind yiu that, of the thousands of EU laws that have been passed down the decades, the UK has adopted almost all of them enthusiastically. If you think that leaving the EU will put up wages, help the NHS, stem immigration and generally make this country richer, then yes, you really are truly delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 07:56 PM

The vast majority of people who voted leave is what I meant to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:10 PM

In the US, at least, there is a disdain for facts because of the disdain for science because of the puritan crap. No education is allowed, or it might contradict someone's belief. My understanding of European education, on the contrary, is that they don't denigrate science.
Nonetheless, the fact that people feel that moslems are a threat does not make moslems an actual, factual, threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:30 PM

Actually feelings are facts, but they facts relating to the person who has the feelings, not about the world outside. If I am angry with someone, that's a fact all right, but it need not mean that anger is justified by the actions of that person

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 04:19 AM

Steve Shaw - 02 Oct 16 - 07:55 PM

Often wondered Steve of the 12,509 posts since 13.05.2007 if the idea ever crossed your mind to shut your mouth just to give your arse a chance?

I haven't a clue as to whether Stanron or anyone else voted for leaving the EU because they are delusional, though the only possible alternative to it is that they have a personal vested interest in getting out.

So anyone who voted to Leave was either delusional or selfishly looking after their own interests were they? Of course the latter is by no means the "only possible alternative" not by a long shot. It would appear that Stanron, Senoufou and myself all voted Leave because we thought that it was in the best long term interests of the country.

"The vast majority of people, Stanron and Senoufou included for all I know, fell for a pack of lies about how much the EU "costs" us Blah, Blah, Blah"

Incontrovertible fact though Shaw is that the EU DOES COST US {I personally do not care by how much, that is irrelevant}, and over the years diktat from Brussels has sought to harm us economically to deliberately benefit Germany and France. Every prediction and every piece of "Doom'n'Gloom" spread by the "Remnain" campaign has proven worthless even the supposed rise in "Hate Crimes" which has it's origins in a misreported story from a Seminar that took place four days after the results of the referendum was known.

"Take away those packs of lies from the argument and there is not one rational reason on earth for voting to leave."

I can think of several, but foremost is after leaving we will not be subject to laws being imposed upon us without considered debate in our national Parliament. Oh and as for:

"I'd remind yiu that, of the thousands of EU laws that have been passed down the decades, the UK has adopted almost all of them enthusiastically."

I'd remind you that they were all adopted because the UK as a member had no other choice. Once we have left our laws are our own, though of by us for our own benefit, debated by us and us alone and imposed by us and us alone, and should they prove to be in error Shaw they can then be repealed by us and us alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 04:27 AM

I'm getting fed up of your aggressive and tiresome rudeness. There is a lot I could say in response to your misguided stance but I don't see the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:21 AM

"I'm getting fed up of your aggressive and tiresome rudeness."

As we are of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:11 AM

Fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:49 AM

Here is the source I copied nearly word for word.
My intention was not discord but rather the anatomy of a political lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNdkrtfZP8I

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:04 AM

Give it a rest you two, please.

"In the US, at least, there is a disdain for facts because of the disdain for science because of the puritan crap."

This is becoming the way here too, with party policy decided along idealogical lines rather than evidence-based and informed policy formation. ALL of our political parties do this, and it's problematic as it encourages the sort of short-termist thinking that dominates our political decision-making. We suffer less from the fundamentalist and literalist influence of our religions, and this is one positive.

In terms of Brexit, we were lied to by all sides and there is little doubt that feelings trumped facts; nationalism is an abstract concept after all, not a quantifiable value. We don't even know what Brexit means or what shape it might take (hard or soft etc), so devoid of facts are we at the moment and so to have had an informed opinion on the process before seems unlikely. As for getting any sort of reliable facts on which to base an opinion, then good luck with that. That takes individual effort and dismissing anything any politician ever proclaims on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:17 AM

I can only speak for myself (I would never suggest other voters 'fell for a pack of lies') and I voted Leave after much thought, discussion with my friends and consideration of everything put before me (all sources, both sides of the matter) I am old, and have therefore experience of living in this country for many many decades. I also reflect often on my late father's views (He served during WW2, and was an extremely wise man) I find it rather insulting and arrogant when someone suggests I was duped 'by a pack of lies', or that the cost of being in the EU was my only point of reference for voting as I did.
Everyone knows the whole issue was/is very complex and difficult to grasp. There were many points for and against leaving. I am capable of evaluating and assessing what various politicians and economists have said. I am not stupid.
I had a vote and I used it, which in a democracy such as ours I had every right to do.
I don't regret how I voted at all. And I was thrilled when it became apparent that Brexit had won.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:32 AM

I might add, my dear husband voted Remain, after much consideration and research online. He is far more politically astute and knowledgeable than I, and, like my late father, a very wise man. He too had every right to his vote, and cast it as he thought fit.
He would never dream of accusing me of having 'fallen for a pack of lies', or of confusing 'feelings' for 'facts'.
But then he is, and always has been, a true gentleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:48 AM

The whole point of my last two posts, Stu, is that I AM "giving it a rest," so your non-moderatorial injunction is not appreciated, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:13 AM

Well I do suggest that millions of voters DID fall for a pack of lies. That immigration is severely damaging our country (it is actually of massive benefit) and our borders are "out of control" - meaningless gibberish. Nothing is going to change apropos of immigration as long as we need those doctors, nurses, dentists, plumbers and electricians that we fail to train ourselves, nothing. Even Iain Duncan-Smith, scumbag and brexiteer par excellence, admitted that yesterday. And the brexiteers "forgot" to tell you that we get more immigration from outside the EU than from within that we COULD control if we wanted, but we don't.   Worse, these two separate false claims were conflated into a racist narrative. That we "give" the EU £350 million per week. That we are inundated with undesirable laws and bureaucracy "made in Brussels" - we are not - we make those laws AND we have embraced thousands of them, almost the whole lot, enthusiastically, demurring over and often changing the very few we don't like. We do not fight wars with our historical European enemies any more and never will as long as the EU exists. You say you are old. Well congratulations for helping to decide an adverse future for this country not for you but for generations to come. I don't doubt that many leave-voters were sincere, but the evidence for leaving that they relied on doesn't amount to a hill of beans, just waffle about "getting our democracy back," putting EU money back into the NHS (you will never see the day, and I think you know it) and, even vaguer, making Britain great again in the brave new world of free trade. And who were you listening to when you took that on board? Why, a bunch of flag-waving little Englanders who secretly think that all foreigners are inferior and there to be exploited (like, let THEM train the doctors and nurses - their work permits are already at the printers...)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:09 AM

Steve you beat me to it
I too am emphatically stating how and why voters fall for a pack of lies.
Not all voters, but a reliable 20 to 40% of them.

I am aware that the Brexit controversy is still an open wound.
Nor am I unaware that there is a malevolent tone that an 'American' would have the gall to bring it up, thank you very much.

reprise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNdkrtfZP8I

Boris:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uWAdJFhBK4

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:23 AM

In the US, at least, there is a disdain for facts because of the disdain for science

Not only a disdain for science, but a generalized disdain for education, for expertise; the idiotic belief that everything is just a matter of opinion, and thus disdain for fact and objective reality.

Send cards of thanks for this to Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, Howard Nema, Michael Savage most Republican members of Congress and, of course, Twitter and Farcebook.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:28 AM

Notice I am not taking this personally :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:36 AM

In my last post, read "And the brexiteers "forgot" to tell you that we get more immigration from outside the EU than from within, immigration that we COULD control if we wanted, but which we don't."

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

There is nothing delusional about the politics of hate.
There is nothing delusional about being a good hypnotic subject.
Generally it requires a highly intelligent and aware person.

Some of you may be saying "NOT ME".
I am saying "Yup, some of you too".

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:56 AM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 10:46 AM

To the Jewish cry "NEVER AGAIN" my response albeit unusual has been to resist the hypnotic qualities of the politics of hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

I note that Nigel Farage, one of those who pushed Brexit thru, has become an enthusiastic Trump supporter.

I'm not sure exactly what this means, but the mindset worries me... ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 11:36 AM

Senoufou your last two posts - very well put, well said.

Donuel - 03 Oct 16 - 09:09 AM

"I too am emphatically stating how and why voters fall for a pack of lies."

Well no Donuel, you are not - all you happen to be doing is paraphrasing what you have seen and heard on soundbite TV programmes. As for lies? Well going on your past record, you certainly know about propagating and spreading those don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 12:22 PM

by way of Third Reich murder policies I have lost dozens of family members made known to me at age 3.

My background is in Clinical and therapeutic hypnosis.

I put 2 and 2 together 40 years ago.

Yes I am schooled in propaganda.

While one is an academic matter the other is honest personal experience.

If someone doesn't know what a crypto fascist is, I encourage self exploration.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:20 PM

Don't let this idiot get to you, Donuel. He must've had a bad night last night as he's been lashing out splenetically at all and sundry today, worse than ever, trolling in at least two threads. Be like me and realise you're not special. 😉

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:28 PM

"I note that Nigel Farage, one of those who pushed Brexit thru, has become an enthusiastic Trump supporter."

Indeed, Bill. In fact, without him the leave campaign would almost certainly have lost. In fact, without him there would probably never have been this wretched and undemocratic referendum in the first place. I hope that all those leave voters will now see their enlightened leader for the liar, racist and charlatan he truly is, which some of us have actually known for many years. Still, what can you tell these "educated brexiteers?" I could weep!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:40 PM

I have read Teribus for 10 years. I speculated that he too has experienced family war tragedy but arrived at different conclusions.
At any rate, 'attention must be paid'.

My Jewish relatives were victims of the southern Einsatzgruppen where they separate men from women so the men do not riot to protect the women, strip everyone naked including children and infants attended by their mothers and rush them to the edge of a trench where as few bullets as possible were used to make people fall into the trench. Most shots were aimed at the back of the neck. Mothers who held infants below their heart resulted in writhing children who were not shot. Even after being covered with earth the sol continued to writh with the ones still alive.

One can witness the process on you tube from the films of Babba Yar and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:48 PM

Oh please Shaw don't crawl, the fact that Donuel is prepared to spread lies about a completely innocent third party has been proven - Ask him about the fire on USS Forrestal in 1967 and who he attributed blame to. A man who could not possibly have been at fault and who barely escaped with his life from the incident.

At the time when this evidence was presented to Donuel he absolutely refused to walk back on any of the lies he attempted to spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:55 PM

This was one of many answers to what was called the 'Jewish Question'.

Beware the innocent sounding 'immigrant question'.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 02:28 PM

Bad news about the referendum in Columbia that rejected the peace settlement negotiated beetween the government and FARC. From what I've read the campaign seems to have had a lot in common with the Brexit campaign.

The result is likely to be even more immediately disastrous than Bredit. It's as if the Good Friday agreement had been voted down by the Irish, which would have been a nightmare. (It's as well the English weren't allowed a vote on it, in the light of what happened in June his year...)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 03:48 PM

That is disturbing about Columbia. The public seems to favor retribution. Perhaps a Trial could reach a settlrment better than an election.




There are the anti science religious forces out there that I call the American Taliban. In 2 years we will ride in driverless cars along with the American Taliban. AI, genetics, cyber evolution and physics will continue to advance along with 'those of faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 04:36 PM

I'm sorry to hear about education in the UK following the US lead into lack of education.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:55 PM

I too voted leave and add my congratulations to Senfounou for an excellent summation.

Has anyone any idea what the F*** Donuel is on about....I think he referred to me as some kind of Fascist a while ago because I suggested that Mrs Clinton may not be quite "The clean tattie".

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:09 PM

Donuel is too kind to say that you're a bloody idiot, but I'm not. Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:43 PM

akenaton wrote: I too voted leave and add my congratulations to Senfounou for an excellent summation.

Me too.

Shaw and Donuel seem to be so focused on negativity. Strange times and strange alliances. Let the wierd continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:46 PM

That's alright Steve, most of us know that politics are not really your strong point, but what's all this hypnosis stuff?

Despite being abused and pilloried by almost all of the UK media, Mr Farage succeeded in accomplishing an astonishing feat, being instrumental in UK withdrawal from the EU.

He an excellent debater, straight and to the point with all the facts and figures at his fingertips.......I would say inspirational. Unfortunately, I am not in agreement with him over economic policies, but he is certainly one of the best politicians of his generation.

Of course, he will never receive the credit that he deserves, as the establishment and "liberals" of all hues hate him with a vengeance.
He is presumably attracted by the "maverick" tendencies in Mr Trump's persona.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:54 PM

"Often wondered Steve of the 12,509 posts since 13.05.2007 if the idea ever crossed your mind to shut your mouth just to give your arse a chance?"

Perhaps he has been waiting for you to set an example, Teribus? Because, whilst I have spoken in your support / defence in the past, you are very close to the head of the list of the most hostile, narrow-minded, nasty, aggressive & thoroughly unpleasant posters I have seen on this forum. Frankly, I'm hard pressed to think of anyone other than Gibbering Martian (i.e. Martin Gibson) who would beat you to the title.

Shut your ars... sorry, mouth? When did you ever give the idea consideration?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:09 PM

Come on old friend, Teribus treats others as they treat him.

You never find him picking on the "innocent".
He and I are miles apart on economic policy but we are pretty civil to one another.

Up here in Scotland MrT's quote is an old piss take...."Shut yer mooth an' gie yer arse a chance"...... Big mouthed people who are ill informed are the usual "butt".   :0)

Good to see you still and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:09 PM

Gosh, I've never uttered a word about "hypnosis stuff" in my life.

I don't do negative, Stanron, unlike you, who gets all defensive at the mere drop of a hat. Fine by me. You're not a difficult man to take on.

Cheers, Raedwulf. I know you'd take me to pieces without demur were I to get beyond meself, and that's exactly how it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:27 PM

I see a new fab five who compose a bunch of media brawlers who think insult or snubs give them reality show gladiator points.
Get yourselves to college if you want to live.
A Glockwulf Orange kulture dies quickly in the light of social shame.

Methinks you are jealous of Steve's expanded horizons compared to your tiny world.

What ever you write by the light of your fiery cross will be disregarded as S&F.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:59 PM

Precisely, Steve. And hello Ake. No, Teribus, unfortunately, frequently goes well beyond where he needs to, and has always had a habit of doing so pre-emptively, alas. Stupid really. He's perfectly capable of making a perfectly good civil argument... but all too often can't resist getting nasty. Something I've pointed out to him before (and others have too, I'm sure) to no effect.

It probably says something that the first post I've made in 6 months is to point out to someone that they are being exactly the arsehole that they are bitching about. And my money is on Teribus trying to snarl & sneer at me when he comes back, cos Teribus never thinks he is wrong about anything. Ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:28 PM

focused on negativity

Reality is often focused on negativity, as it also often has a "liberal bias".

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:51 PM

It is an education to hear a young person refer to the holocaust as seeming negative.

The holocaust was the outcome of authoritarian right wing politics that started out as extortion, building walls, ghettos and proceeded by steps all the way to gas chambers and furnaces. The most advanced murder systems were by order of Himmler who was physically sickened after witnessing Einsatzgruppen techniques.

Is this even part of education today. Or do whiney kids today need a trigger warning?

The Nazis did discover many new things like hanging kids under 12 did not kill them but slowly strangled them over the course of a full day.

Of course it can't happen here and now. That's what the rational Germans said. The anti immigrant sentiments now are similar to 1928 anti-Semitism. imho

It is not unreasonable Joe, to know what history we could relive by modern sanitary means like neutron bombs* in the future if extreme right wing nuts gain access to the nuclear codes.

*Anyone killed by neutron bombs will not rot or decompose. They dehydrate. It is a more clean bang for the buck.


Yes Virginia there is a negative
and a good Nazi never recants or apologizes.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:25 AM

"And my money is on Teribus trying to snarl & sneer at me when he comes back, cos Teribus never thinks he is wrong about anything. Ever."

Then you'd lose your bet Raedwulf. If you doubt that then ask either Joe Offer (FGCM), akenaton (Promised deadline of the Scottish Independence Referendum during SNP's first term in office) or Raggytash (FGCM) what I do when it has been pointed out to me that I am in error. You will find that I put my hands up to it straight away and apologise for my mistake. You obviously haven't read or studied your subject enough to make comment on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 02:17 AM

"The Nazis did discover many new things like hanging kids under 12 did not kill them but slowly strangled them over the course of a full day."

No new discovery there Donuel.

Ever heard of the old sentence handed down - "To be hung without mercy"?

Back in the days when children were executed weighs used to be attached to their ankles so that there would be sufficient weight on release of the trap to break the neck cleanly and quickly. The weights were called "Mercy".

The means by which offenders in Iran are now publicly executed ensures a long slow death by suffocation as the rope round the neck of the person to be executed is attached to the bucket of a digger and the person is hoisted into the air to be strangled slowly by his own body weight - apparently that is the will of Allah, according to Sharia Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 09:21 AM

No new discovery there Donuel.

Well, T-Bird, guess those Nazi experiments were OK then, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 11:06 AM

So, just to get back to the actual issue, how can we get education back into education so people will know the difference between feelings about things and facts about those same things as an automatic thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 11:19 AM

Education is about showing people how to find things out (one of the most crucial aspects of which is the golden rule that you must always seek real evidence before accepting anything as true) and giving them the enthusiasm to do so. It isn't about stuffing people's heads with facts that they can then churn out in an exam, and is certainly isn't about passing on beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 11:32 AM

Well not really Smeg, the Nazi's didn't find out anything that hadn't already been known for centuries - sort of made "their experiments" as you call them rather pointless. Logic has never been your strong point has it - now knee-jerk reactions, different thing entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 11:51 AM

Logic not MY strong point, T-Bird? What the f**k has Iran, the Muslim faith & Sharia Law got to do with anything under discussio here?

Or was that just another example of your gratuitous bigory & racism?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:24 PM

OK everybody, all together now... 🎼🎶 Here we go, here we go, here we go...🎶

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:28 PM

Have a second, no in your case probably a first, reading of Donuel's post Smeg, then try and keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:33 PM

Well, T-Burd, the words "Muslim", "Sharia" and "Iran" appear nowhere in any of Donuel's posts. Guess you just had a feeling they did, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

As Steve says learning how to learn is paramount. Secondly learning how to apply knowledge is fundamental. As you

Mrrzy's question deserves a new thread twice the volume of the Library of Congress. Many seem to confuse data, facts, knowledge and wisdom.
If one is totally bereft of ethics there is a good chance their choices may be evil. Based upon one's education and lack of it, the 'greater argument' is different.

To reach a consensus among people in possession of false concepts will only give an average of false concepts, so it is difficult to arrive at a superior curriculum.

You need many voices in Mrzzy's education thread. Despite personal claims there are few people who have all three branches of intelligence; knowledge, multi disiplinary perspective, wisdom.



In conclusion a vote for Trump is a vote to legitimize the Nazi elements in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:42 PM

edit' 'the greater good argument'

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 12:47 PM

Good for Mrrzy, for bringing the discussion back to the original post.

When I finally left teaching, the new textbooks were just beginning to use several sources printed on a page to illustrate the various viewpoints on a topic. One of my responsibilities (450 pupils) was to buy books for Geography, History and (sorry Steve) Religious Education. The History books in particular were changing, and eye-witness accounts, reproductions of documents and if available, photos of events in the past were presented to the pupils. Questions at the end of each chapter would ask for opinions, conclusions or evaluations instead of just a list of facts to memorise. (These were for 12 year-olds) Often there were conflicting accounts,to stretch their minds a bit.
It did encourage the children to think for themselves and use 'evidence' rather than 'teacher says'.
Even the Religious Education fare was presented as Comparative Religion, with the aim that the pupils would know about the great World Religions, how their adherents lived their lives etc. It was in no way Indoctrination, and no one religion was treated as more important than another.
This was one aspect of the National Curriculum which met with my approval!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:24 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

Sounds like the curriculum was a big improvement. Has it helped ?
The US text books were once not allowed to say Civil War, it was called The War of Northern Aggression or more liberal "The war between the states.

Today there is a great change in curriculum except for states like Texas and Tennessee.


"It did encourage the children to think for themselves and use 'evidence'..."
Senofou

Evidence has lost its meaning, respect and importance in the US and has been replaced by feelings.

Trump has captured the hearts of Americans despite all his indecencies and inabilities. Neurologically, feelings "trump" the mind.

Unfortunately Clinton does not capture both hearts and minds.

Media says Donald has only a 10% chance of victory.
That's too much for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:33 PM

Today there is a great change in curriculum except for states like Texas and Tennessee.

And South Carolina, Birthplace of Secession.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:36 PM

"the words "Muslim", "Sharia" and "Iran" only appear in your posts. I did mention "Sharia" and "Iran" as they appear to execute offenders in the same cruel manner as did the Nazis. Now Donuel did mention them also something about "It can't happen today" - well it does happen today as I pointed out - in Iran. It also happened a long, long time ago as I also pointed out - but you would have noted that had you actually read anything instead of just reacting to it Smeg.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:49 PM

Oops!
I second the applause for Mrzzy and agree how we educate people to appreciate when something is factual and when it is a feeling that contradicts facts is certainly important. (Though I am not convinced there was ever a time the population was good at it and call in evidence demagogues and rabble routers though recorded history). I also agree the kind of books Senoufou mentions are useful in that regard, but they are mainly about different views of the same thing (a historical event for example). Used badly, of course, they can make things worse because they could leave the child with the belief all viewpoints are equally valid, which is the exact opposite of what we are attempting to achieve. So surprise, surprise, a good teacher is an essential part of the mix.

Another thing I think is well intentioned but counter productive is the separation of subjects. We end up if we are not careful with a strong emphasis on the importance of factual accuracy in science subjects with (comparatively) little emphasis on facts in other subjects, as in the "alternative views" of history approach when taught badly.

I always remember visiting countries in Scandinavia and hearing how a particular king was seen as a glorious unifier in the country he originally ruled and a vile oppressor in the country he conquered. You need quite a sophisticated understanding of 'fact' and 'viewpoint' to cope with that, and I don't think you get that with a "copper gives a greeny blue flame test' idea of facts. The result is that how people think of facts when they are dealing with one subject is separated from facts with another.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:49 PM

Teribus - you have reacted that way in the past to me (and others) pointing out you don't need to be an arsehole to get your point across (and I do mean you, personally, not a generic 'you'). And I have seen you, all too often, refuse to acknowledge that you might just have been... what was the phrase... "opening your mouth instead of giving your arse a chance." Something like that. Who came up with that one, eh? ;-)

So not really a surprise I said what I did? Not entirely convinced you weren't sneering, but one can never tell with t'internet. Certainly, you weren't snarling. Guess I owe a few quid to charity then! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 01:54 PM

Using abbreviations of the names of other posters is generally done in a friendly way, and does no harm - but "Smeg" is an unpleasant example of the kind of thing that messes up communication.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 02:14 PM

DMcG, I did miss very much the pre-National Curriculum days when we taught in 'Topics'. A subject would be chosen, and all subjects would be woven in, as threads of the main theme. Also (which was utter bliss) we were given free-rein to form our Topics for our class, and one could follow one's interests and use material one had collected.

A whole week (or more if the class was running with it) would be devoted to this Topic. For example, (can you guess?) I devised a huge Topic about the Continent of Africa, which explored ecology, wildlife, human settlement, slavery, climate, crop production (cocoa, coffee etc) music, dance ,art and so on. I wrote plays, showed corruption and dictatorship with various dramas, cooked African meals, on and on and on. I even took the whole class to the theatre to watch a performance by Senegalese dancers and drummers. My aim was to get the pupils to actually 'feel' that they 'knew' Africa, but could also absorb necessary 'facts' which they needed as part of a good education.

Imagine as a contrast opening an old textbook which advocated the Colonial attitude to these 'primitive savages' and the 'wonderful changes' missionaries and Western invaders had achieved. These were the type of books put before young people in the fifties.

I reckon the combination of the more modern National Curriculum and a good, inspired teacher is the best formula for a balanced education.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 02:34 PM

Oh, and I missed it last night, but Ake, really? Farceage was, is, and always will be an oily, self-serving tit. Until he retired (allegedly) from politics, I regularly referred to him as having the most punchable face in British politics, the smug twat.

Far from being "straight and to the point with all the facts and figures at his fingertips.......I would say inspirational", he is a greasy, evasive, lying toad who would scarcely know a fact if it walked up & bit him on the nose. If he is one of the best politicians of his generations, then it's no wonder we're in the effing (I'd type it in full, but I seem to recall you object to what you regard as gratuitous profanity, you old Covenanter fogey, you... :p ) mess that we are in.

Smug. Vainglorious. Self-satisfied, self-centred & self-serving. Narrow-minded. Little Englander. Liar. These are all words I'd associate with Farceage; none of the ones you used. And the only modern-day politician I'd put in the same cess-pit as him is The Salmon. Though, frankly, The Sturgeon is teetering on the brink. All slimy, "I'll promise any pie-in-the-sky nonsense to get you to vote my way" politicians. I really would put them up against the proverbial wall, given half a chance. Before the lawyers, too!! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 03:37 PM

He's got a lot to be smug about Raedwulf!   :0)

Bloody good show for an Englishman....I would say.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 03:40 PM

Seriously that was a nice apology to MrT......That's why I quite like you buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

"the words "Muslim", "Sharia" and "Iran" only appear in your posts. I did mention "Sharia" and "Iran".

Well which is it, T-Bird? Can't be both.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 04:56 PM

What seems to be missed here , is that those who think others form judgments from feelings and confuse them with facts , are just as likely to be thought doing the same by those who comprise the former. And when it comes to politics and religion, the notion that if you are arguing for one side , you can be fact filled and feeling free, is spectacularly simplistic. And also, as I have maintained many times before, facts are often interpreted according to bias and worldview.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:10 PM

I think the very word 'fact' is open to question. Many 'facts' over the decades have been shown to be misguided opinion.
It's obviously best to stick to proven science if one can, but nowadays researchers seem to contradict themselves daily, and one is left wondering what is true.
This is especially the case with what constitutes unhealthy food.

Regarding personalities and the character of various politicians, I think one's instinctive feelings can be a good guide.
I have never met Trump, but just looking at his facial expressions and body language, let's just say I wouldn't buy a used car off that chap!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:13 PM

Religion education is vital. There is a lot of religion in the world and it has a massive influence (unfortunately) on how people live their lives and on politics, and any study of history inevitably involves an understanding of the influence of religion on people and events. Enforced religious worship and instruction are thoroughly bad things that have nothing to do with education.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:16 PM

Education DOES involve stuffing facts into heads. If you don't give students facts, they have nothing to think WITH. It just ALSO involves other stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:28 PM

Not stuffing. That is simply not the way. No-one is claiming that schools should be fact-free zones, but a one-way flow of information from teacher to pupil will ensure two things: that most of the stuffed facts will be rapidly forgotten once the exam hoop has been jumped through, and that any enthusiasm for going out and grabbing knowledge for yourself, rather than have it poured over you, will drain away.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 05:50 PM

I used to be allocated each year a group of Egyptian teachers, over in UK to experience our teaching methods. They would observe my lessons and I was asked to give demonstrations in group teaching.
I would give each group of pupils a small card with their task written on it. They had to research something as a team, using the entire school library (the stocking of which was another one of my responsibilities!) and any equipment I'd got hold of, scattered around the unit. It was intended to be self-directed learning (no computers in those days)
The Egyptians were very surprised, as their teaching methods consisted of chalk-and-talk, and repetition by the class of one fact after another, followed by a test. Rather Victorian.
It sounds a bit chaotic, but the children were used to this system, and produced some really good work, and learned to love finding out stuff.
(I also used the Egyptians themselves as a resource for our religious studies of Islam, being careful not to allow any attempts at conversion!)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 06:00 PM

I think I have told this story before, but it fits here because I think it is an example of how the interplay between student and a good teacher can really work well, and even though strictly speaking "off syllabus" gave insights that probably embedded the syllabus more deeply as a result. I was, I guess, thirteen and my maths teacher remarked in passing that any right angle triangle with integer sides had one of them divisible by 5. I realised when he said it I didn't know how to begin to prove something like that. So I puzzled it over while the rest of the class went on. Then, when we were all doing some exercise or other he was wandering amongst us and I asked him how you would go about proving it. He then stopped the exercises and explained to the whole class how to do it. And in the course of that he tied in some of the stuff we had been learning so we saw how those ideas tied in together.

Factual? Well yes, but much more about skills than facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 07:49 PM

Although it has not been challenged I have not yet produced the research pertaining to how and why feelings have a psychological advantage in effecting behavior than facts alone.

It has been shown in real time that conservatives react to a Trump presentation by way of their amygdala which processes emotions while liberals process with a region of their cortex.

Emotional midbrain memory influences behavior quicker and with more experiential memory than the analyzing facts stored in the cortex.
( memory storage is more complex than I have stated)

here is a beginning;
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/09/07/your-brain-on-politics-the-cognitive-neuroscience-of-liberals-and-conservatives/#.V_PnMegrKhc

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 08:43 PM

However the facts get in there, as long as they get in.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 16 - 08:57 PM

But they're far more likely to stay in if they were grabbed enthusiastically rather than stuffed in by teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 01:59 AM

Contribution to a Charity - Good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:13 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 02:38 AM

Sorry again folks. This phone is really prone to converting being picked up into instructions and on Mudcat that becomes "post a blank message."

Pete and Donuel are saying related things I think. Facts are pretty dull and useless things; a date of a battle, the number and groupings of participants, the outcome. To get beyond a "shopping list" you need to move beyond the strictly factual into the interpretation: why was the battle on that date, why were there that number of participants, did the battle have a long term effect.... these interpretations are affected by belief systems in the widest sense. A particular interpretation will "feel right" for example. So a proper education, in my book, is about teaching habits and skills of discernment, critical thinking and lifelong learning, with facts as important but very much in second place.

However, to be good consumers those are not desirable. Businesses are not really that keen on our asking ourselves if we really need that new car, or whether paying extra for a certain brand is a good idea. Ditto politicians don't really like us thinking critically about their statements. So we end up with an education system that focuses on the sort of fact that is easily testable rather than something nuanced. And consequently with voters that may react to politicians based on "feelings" rather than "facts".

And I don't think any of us are immune to this. Andrea Leadsom, for example, had an especial ability to annoy me with her smugness and shallow answers during the Brexit campaign.   She could have easily influenced me to vote against her.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 04:17 AM

Ah, here we come to the great stumbling block of the matter. I seem to remember Steve and I had an interesting short discussion about this very thing:- Is the aim of education to engender a love of learning, or is it to produce young people who are literate, fit for work, and can perform a useful role in society? I think I actually supported the latter, and to some extent I think I was right.

It's wonderful, of course, to stimulate students to enjoy and pursue their own studies; to inspire and empower them with the tools to investigate for themselves, and even think for themselves. But there are exams to pass and qualifications to obtain. The world of work in the main consists of being responsible. punctual, dependable, reliable and patient. There are few jobs which require the employee to investigate or innovate. (Maybe Design, or Police work...)
There are two different types of Education - the luxury of pursuing one's own ideas at one's own pace and the enjoyment of forming one's own impressions through examination of all the evidence etc.
And the sheer hard toil of absorbing facts for regurgitation in an exam, and to train one for the daily grind of the workplace.
They don't seem compatible to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 04:31 AM

I have to add that, having been educated in a traditional way, through the State system in the early fifties/sixties, (strict Primary school, grammar school, old established university and then teacher training college) I did not experience an enlightened or inspiring ethos while learning. Yet I venture to think it didn't restrict my free-thinking, or prevent me from exploring for myself my own ideas and opinions.
It did however give me an excellent grounding in literacy, general knowledge, self-discipline and diligence, all of which have served me well over the years.
Those Egyptian teachers perhaps used the education system most suitable for their country and their particular work requirements. They also explained to me they just didn't have the resources to implement self-directed learning. (It is indeed an expensive luxury)

I think Charles Dickens explored this very issue in Hard Times.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 05:52 AM

Well I did say that schools should not be fact-free zones. I'm rather glad that someone forced me to chant 7X8=56 a thousand times. It's a fact all right but it's also a building block. My point is that stuffing facts, by worried teachers who always have to watch their backs these days, in order to pass key stage tests or exams provides the danger of utterly quelling all enthusiasm for learning, engendering cynicism even, and worse, produces children with mental sieves, that is, they forget all those "facts" once they've jumped through the hoops. Facts don't exist in isolation. A dictionary is rammed full of disconnected facts, determined only by alphabetical order. For edification through joy, I'd far sooner read Dickens or Jane Austen than a dictionary any day, but that doesn't mean I'll be throwing the dictionary away. All things are interconnected, and the joy of learning is to find the connections. That way you're encouraged to keep enquiring, to keep adding to the never-ending jigsaw. Rote learning, and the force-feeding of pseudo-facts, as happens in all religious instruction lessons, are obstacles to the process. Facts are important, but learning how to learn (how to grab knowledge for yourself rather than have it poured over you, in the words of the great John Seymour) is crucial in enabling us to make sense of the facts. And to stay enthusiastic about learning, the most important thing of all. Quite possibly, it's why we're here.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:11 AM

There are few jobs which require the employee to investigate or innovate.


That's true. But there is more to us than being employees. And in some of those we called on to critically review things, elections being one of them. And, I would say, many of us end up having a greater effect on the future by what we purchase, how we consume and who we elect than we do through our day job.

And even if we didn't I am on the "work to live" rather than "live to work" side of the seesaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:19 AM

Very balanced view Steve. I agree with what you say.

Just before the implementation of the National Curriculum, I was invited to attend a Conference about it. After a few talks, we were split into groups for discussion. I related an experience I had had regarding a haggis:-
My class (10 year-olds) was learning about food around the world (and food shortages/poverty/ diet etc) I brought in a haggis for them to sample. We then discussed the ingredients, and how it used offal and oatmeal, available to the Scots crofters, and so on. My point was that in a strait-jacketed Curriculum and timetable, there was no place for a haggis. No opportunity for spontaneous learning. If haggis wasn't mentioned in the Schedule, it was impossible to have it.
An Inspector consigned to our group seemed to like my Haggis Theory, and later I found haggises referred to quite a bit in various literature concerning the National Curriculum. It did make me smile...

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:25 AM

True, DMcG. It really boils down to what exactly is the aim of State Education, and what should it be?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:41 AM

Absolutely. And what a deeply political question that is.

Which may be why politicians just cannot resist tinkering with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:57 AM

Well, I was a teacher at the time the National Curriculum was brought in, and I said then that it was a blunt instrument intended to beat teachers into submission following a decade of what the government characterised as our "militancy". All content, all fact-stuffing and no scope for teachers to be imaginative. To be assessed by a massive tick-box programme that has been shown to be corrupt for decades (I could regale you for hours with the inconsistencies, the cheating and the massaging of assessments I saw). Note that Thatcher excused public schools (independent schools, yanks) from having to adopt it Oh yes, only those toffs were "responsible" enough to be trusted. Same for those ideologically-driven "free schools" today. Impose on that a bureaucratic nightmare of form-filling and ludicrously-complex preparation and marking regimes for every state school teacher in the country and a draconian and utterly unsupportive inspection regime that was, initially at least, peopled by failed teachers or those who couldn't take the heat who had had three days' training. I'm afraid that education has always been a political football in this country. It wouldn't be half so bad if any of it had actually led to better standards, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 07:21 AM

My goodness Steve, what you've just written chimes with everything I felt at the time (and still do). The mountains of paperwork, non-productive 'accountability', the stultifying Curriculum, the inadequate Inspectors. It was one of the reasons I finally retired.
I suppose it was the increasing 'liberality' of the seventies that caused this knee-jerk reaction.
I had always tried to be courteous and fair with Inspectors, and co-operated with them as far as possible.But oh my Lord, some of them were completely inane, hadn't a clue, and suggested such ludicrous 'improvements' I was hard put not to burst out laughing. After thirty years' experience, I couldn't stomach a young chap with a couple of years' teaching behind him telling me my methods were unacceptable or ineffective. I suppose this sounds terribly arrogant, but there it is. I learned to cultivate the response of Mrs Brown's Boys - "That's nice..."
As a true Libran, I think the solution is a balance. But being at the mercy of political tub-thumping, a balance is what we shall never get.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 07:25 AM

By the way (and I couldn't resist being Post 100!) I take a great interest in my neighbours' two children, both at High School. They often visit me with homework difficulties, French composition and so on. (Or just for a chat!) They're both delightful people, and in my view intelligent and able. But oh dear, the standard of their work is truly appalling. Handwriting, spelling, presentation, poor grammar; I don't think much of the education they're receiving. And their school has been judged 'excellent' by Ofsted. If that's excellent, heaven help the 'poor' ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:06 AM

Dedicated teachers are influential for a lifetime. Far more than a Hollywood depiction of the coach who changed lives.


"To get beyond a "shopping list" you need to move beyond the strictly factual into the interpretation: why was the battle on that date, why were there that number of participants, did the battle have a long term effect.... these interpretations are affected by belief systems in the widest sense."
DMcG

To me this draws the distinction between information and knowledge.

Victorian education was aimed at the clerk and the manufacturer to manage the education those jobs required. Today the needs of wealth production is far different. State education is more or less told what those needs are.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 10:23 AM

An elderly gentleman inspector of large girth and ruddy complexion once fell asleep on the back row in my science lab. One of the Year 8 lads rushed up to the front, interrupting my carefully-prepared (for once) spiel, to inform me that "that man on our bench is making snoring noises, Sir!" Indeed he was. I later discovered that he'd been staying at the Falcon Hotel in Bude, which has an excellent bar at which he'd been liberally indulging himself the night before.

Ofsted has been an unmitigated disaster. There's even a suspicion that inspectors were deliberately downgrading schools that were showing reluctance to become academies in order to pressurise them to do so. Teachers don't need constant threats of no-notice inspectorial swoops and publicly-judgemental reporting. They need critical-friend support. In the ILEA we had excellent teams of advisory teachers of proven accomplishment, experts in your subject area, not just any old Tom, Dick or Harry ex-teacher. They would observe lessons, look at the children's work and offer friendly support, advice - and criticism. A proper professional collaboration, supported by a fairly hands-off inspection regime that you'd have been unlucky to encounter more than once or twice during your career. Not up Thatcher's alley at all, of course. Teachers needed beating up and she had just the handbag for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 11:15 AM

Interesting that Steve calls religious instruction pseudo facts . I was under the impression that comparative religion was the order of the day in state schools and the facts therefore consisted of information as to what was believed and practised by whatever religion in question. It is a shame the same method is not used in teaching other stuff that is presented as fact but actually is rather interpretation of data that cannot be evidenced to be anywhere near conclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 11:38 AM

The language I use always draws a very clear line between education about religion (crucial) and religious instruction and enforced worship (one of the greatest evils). It would be good if you actually paid more careful attention to what people actually say before churning out your next batch of absudities.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 11:39 AM

And that was an absurd spelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 12:49 PM

I had quite a few HM Inspections during my early years of teaching. The Inspectors were usually older, quite stern (especially in Scotland) but very competent, and always fair. I always felt they had long experience behind them.
I do so wish I'd had one fall asleep at the back of my classroom Steve! I love a good laugh.
We had some very good Subject Advisors. I was given The Humanities to handle (Geography, History and RE) and also The Library. And Fundraising. And I supervised a Yeargroup. And took assemblies. And mentored new staff. The Advisors were very helpful with sourcing the equipment and choosing textbooks for all this and easing my transition into managing staff. There was even a Sewing Advisor. But the National Curriculum Ofsted lot were truly pathetic.

I liked the film 'Dead Poets Society'. It showed how important it is to fire the imagination of one's students.

I often wonder if the Internet has helped the young to see many sides of an issue. There is unlimited access to practically the entire world on there, so it must extend their experience and knowledge. (If they're not too busy gaming, sending pictures of their genitalia to eachother and viewing porn that is.)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 04:41 PM

There has not been a single reply to the neurological and psychological aspects of political science.

There were responses to mentioning the holocaust on the last day of Rosh Hashana. Mostly a change of subject and a cessation of any replies thereafter

What's this I hear about returning to Devil's Island?.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:48 PM


There has not been a single reply to the neurological and psychological aspects of political science

I guess it is just we were just concentrating on the education angle. I think we have reached a natural limit on that because while it affects the upcoming voters and a small percentage of current voters, the majority of voters are not in education so changes to teaching methods won't help. For those over, say, 25 we need to be following a different tack.

I would be a bit wary of a claim that Republicans and Democrats are using different parts of their brains: it is more that the candidates speak in different ways and the voters respond in whatever way the speeches appeal. I would say that Obama's first campaign with its slogan of "Yes we can" was also driven by feelings, albeit far more positive ones. So it is not really a Republican/Democrat divide; it is more the campaign of today.

There is a lot of neurology around emotions and endorphins and such like, but my knowledge of it is definitely layman's. Nevertheless it is clear the effect of a strictly logical and factual argument does not deliver the same chemical "high" than an emotionally driven one can.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 07:00 PM

Hmmmm... Whilst I'm broadly in agreement, Steve, I wouldn't be quite so quick to bang the "Tories have screwed up education" drum. When did Labour do it better? Labour had a decade or so in power. It didn't remove league tables. Now, unlike two or three of you, I am not an heddi prurfeshnul (sic). But league tables are, as far I'm concerned, the root of all (alright, most) modern heddicaishnul evil. And health service, and wherever else they're shoehorned in.

A league table rarely measures anything useful; it's just a bunch of artificial metrics that are a limited subset (but easily measured) of what organisation X does. And what they do do is soak up a deal of resource that could be better utilised doing what the organisation SHOULD be doing. Either the people who should be DOING are sidetracked into justifying their existence, or any extra layer of pointless bureaucracy becomes a non-productive drain on limited budgets.

As for the Good Old Days before all this nonsense...My education happened in the 70's & early 80's. In ILEA schools. When I was 18, I found out that there had been talk of getting me assessed, age 12, and sent to a special school. Not because I was thick, but because I was exceptionally bright. I was messing about with A-level nuclear physics & explaining it to the teachers, frex. Nothing happened, because Labour doesn't (or didn't) believe in spending extra resources on bright kids. You were expected to shift for yourself. Not a level playing field. The Labour ideology certainly was not to give every kid the opportunity to maximise their potential. It was to concentrate any spare resource on thick kids, educationally challenged kids, "special needs" kids, to try to get them to a level that, frankly, very few of them were capable of achieving. So it was wasted.

The end result was, in my case, a kid who was bored with school by the time the 4th year (senior) mock exams had passed. I was bored with having to wait for almost every other kid in my classes to catch up with things that were beautifully simple and / or blindingly obvious. I was bored with listening to the teacher explaining something for the third time that I'd understood halfway through the first explanation. Arrogant? Perhaps, but this is a (long ago!) 14-15 year old I'm talking about! ;-) I wanted out of school, to be earning money. My imagination died for want of fuel, if you like (yes, I love "Dead Poets"). Left wing educational policies failed me badly, and I can't see, from the outside, that they've improved. Education remains a political football, with the left as bad as the right.

I never learnt to *think* in school; I never learnt to *learn* in school. I learnt that afterwards by raiding the local library for the likes of Edward de Bono and, later, Tony Buzan. In my opinion, the primary two functions of education should be to teach young people how to learn (I believe some schools do include such things as mind mapping in their curricula these days), and to teach them how to think i.e. how to assess evidence, how to spot flaws, holes, how to be not so bloody certain that you're *right*! ;-) Facts come a distant third. It's that "teach a man to fish" thing. Again, I realise that the UK examination system has changed, that there is more emphasis on coursework, but still... Passing an exam only really proves you've been taught to pass an exam (which certainly was true in my day!). I may or may not have been "stuffed" with facts, but I'd be hard pushed to tell you one single thing that I remember learning in school...

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 07:53 PM

Well, It was mentioned that a fact, once learned is in there.
It is and it isn't when compared to an emotionally charged memory.

HERE IS THE CLINCHER !

In the thread 'have you witnessed weird car accidents?', you will see how perfectly clear a detailed memory is preserved even after 3 decades when the experience was emotionally charged.

This is something any layman can understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 07:58 PM

Well that's a very interesting post from several perspectives. I'd point out that, if you read my posts in other threads relating to various contexts (please don't torture yourself by looking back...), you'll find that I never, ever defend the New Labour record on anything. New Labour's only achievement was to keep the Tories at bay for thirteen years as far as I'm concerned (discuss...).

Interesting that you were a pupil somewhere in ILEA at precisely the same time as my missus and I were teaching there, 1973 to 1980. Halcyon days by any measure. Teachers left alone to get on with their jobs, free periods to mark and prepare and lunchtimes and breaks free to banter with the other teachers, or just to have a fag and a coffee. The way it should be. We appreciated the space and worked our arses off. What a difference to today.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 08:01 PM

My last post was directed to Raedwulf.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 04:51 AM

I'm sorry Donuel; you're right, we haven't particularly stuck to the subject of the thread title, and I've been very bad at digressing and rambling on about my own experiences, for which I apologise.
However, I'm afraid forums are like this (as are conversations in real life) Old biddies like me (and others :) ) come along and burble on.

My grammar school was led by a Headmaster described by my very right-wing father as a 'Red Hot Labour Chap'. A very young Shirley Williams actually presented us with our GCE O level certificates. We pupils were all working class, and not well-off, and we were (and are) extremely grateful for the opportunity and benefits our education offered.
Our teachers were amazing, many were Oxbridge graduates, two of which I knew had First Class degrees in their subjects. They were very enlightened for their times, and dedicated to their profession.

Our grammar school was one of the very first 'Technical Grammars', and offered many practical subjects as well as classical ones. Middlesex had also one of the very first comprehensives. Mellow Lane. And nobody sat an 11-plus. We were assessed by a series of intelligence tests and evaluation by the teacher. I was incredibly lucky to have been born when and where I was!
My primary school headmistress recommended me to sit the Benenden entrance exam, but my father decided against it, I'm thankful to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 06:06 AM

I have witnessed the sacrifice and caring of teaching from afar.
My dad was a teacher. It was exhaustive and rewarding. Fro the early challenges to the goodbyes for Mr. Chips. I bow to teachers, especially my music teachers.

In my early hypnosis lectures I was often asked did Hitler hypnotize the German people. I used to say no. I now have to atone and answer yes because of what I have learned and the Trump threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 07:50 AM

But was/is it hypnosis in its true sense? Seems far closer to the phenomenon we call 'brainwashing' to my comparatively simple way of thinking.

Senoufou - my experience of Grammar School education parallels yours, a good standard of education for my peers and I, all comparatively poor working-class lads, and grateful for the opportunities it gave us.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 08:09 AM

Regarding Hitler, I think he tapped in to a racist, anti-Semitic feeling in Germany at the time. Their economy was to some extent dominated by Jewish financiers. By harping on about it, and whipping up the population to desire the removal of Jews, he built on this racism, using 'Aryan stereotypes' to reinforce it, until The Final Solution was tacitly accepted. He then proceeded to promote the creation of a Roman Empire-type Reich, which obviously appealed to the people, as they embraced it wholeheartedly, and armed for War with enthusiasm.

Parallels can be seen today. A politician can only persuade his/her adherents to believe what they already have in their minds.
I don't think it's hypnotism so much as opportunism.

In Cote d'Ivoire recently, President Gbagbo took power by tapping into the people's despair at their poverty, and the corruption rife among the rulers. He didn't hypnotise them so much as promise them vast improvements. Sadly, he was extremely corrupt himself, and the poverty merely continued or increased. Luckily, he was eventually booted out after a civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 08:18 AM

<"I don't think it's hypnotism so much as opportunism."

I think you're right.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 08:20 AM

My school was also a grammar with 11+ selection and my experience was similar to the others here. But I don't think anyone is arguing grammars did not help their attendees (most grammars anyway). The problem is almost entirely about what happens to the people who don't pass the exam.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 08:31 AM

The very early Comprehensive I mentioned earlier had an excellent reputation for getting pupils qualifications in more practical subjects such as shorthand and typing, metalwork, woodwork, cookery and so on.

In Middlesex in those days there was a very traditional middle-class grammar school for girls. They taught Greek and Latin, and the school was under the aegis of the Church of England. Luckily my father chose the more modern grammar school for me. I'd have stuck out like a sore thumb in the very posh girls' school. And imagine me at Benenden! (Princess Anne went there.) I spoke with quite a Cockney accent in those days. And you had to board too.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 08:45 AM

I was "severely looked at" by the school when I insisted that amongst all the scientific and mathematical subjects I took I also studied woodwork.

The practical exam was a nightmare: only two of us passed and we both scraped through with the lowest pass grade. I ask you, make your first ever concealed dovetail in wood about 0.75cm thick under exam conditions. Practical exams were insane in those days: the chemistry exam involved heating paraffin using a Bunsen burner. Several fires in our lab, and I am sure in every school laboratory across the country...

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 08:49 AM

Is the aim of education to engender a love of learning, or is it to produce young people who are literate, fit for work, and can perform a useful role in society?

I'd see those two as the same thing, especially in a world changing as fast as it is.

Maybe it depends on whether you see "love of learning" as meaning focussing on the corpus of existing "learning", or as meaning the act of learning itself, which is a defining quality of our species.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 08:52 AM

Sorry - I left out an "end italics" there.

"Is the aim of education to engender a love of learning, or is it to produce young people who are literate, fit for work, and can perform a useful role in society?"

I'd see those two as the same thing, especially in a world changing as fast as it is.

Maybe it depends on whether you see "love of learning" as meaning focussing on the corpus of existing "learning", or as meaning the act of learning itself, which is a defining quality of our species.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 09:14 AM

Ha! My feisty and feminist sister refused categorically to 'do' cookery and needlework with the girls. (Same grammar school, but six years later than I) She boldly confronted the ferocious Head and got her way. She did Woodwork and Metalwork (the only girl amongst all the boys) and came top in both! I reckon the Head was terrified of her (I certainly am). She later studied Medicine, and has progressed far with it. (She also cooks, knits and sews like a dream!)
Do you think one is born with a 'love of learning'? Can it be kindled in a pupil who isn't a bit interested? If it depends on excellent teaching, will it die once the person leaves school?
My poor father was offered a place at grammar school, but his parents flatly refused to consider it, and chucked him out to work. But his love of learning never left him, and he gained numerous qualifications in Telecommunications, which gave him an excellent career. I was much moved to see his surreptitious tears when the letter arrived offering me a place at grammar school, and later at my graduation at Uni.
Days before he died, he was beginning a course in French and was learning to play bridge. I think he was just born with the urge to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 10:52 AM

I think a person's 'love of learning' might depend very much an his/her parents' attitude to learning. If a child is discouraged by parental antipathy to 'school' (and, having been a youth-worker attached to a school, I've seen a great deal of evidence of that!), that child might never find him/herself 'loving learning'.

Having said that, I also believe that damage to a child's attitude by parental negativity can be reversed by a good teacher. And I've seen that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 11:04 AM

Having spent so much time on the subject, hypnosis is a word like the weather is a word. There are many types of weather from fair weather to hurricane weather. The Jesuit church was profoundly interested in my views of the phenomenon as it pertained to religious applications, pro and con. The CIA had an agenda of their own. Etc.

The Journal of Clinical Hypnosis is available to all.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM

Obviously we are born with a love of learning. Otherwise we wouldn't have learned anything. Look at the incredible amount of things we learn to do in the first three years of our lives. The wrong kind of education (in the home, the school and elsewhere) can go a fair way to suppress that.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 01:18 PM

"The Journal of Clinical Hypnosis is available to all.

But do we all have the will to read it, or the intellect to understand it? I don't have the former, and I suspect I may not have the latter!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 01:28 PM

I remember in the 4th grade wanting to take home a library book on butterflies that was designated "library only". Somehow, there was a discussion (I suppose with my 4th grade teacher) and I was allowed to borrow it for 2 weeks.
   That teacher also sold The World Book Encyclopedia in her spare time, and she convinced my parents that I would 'benefit' from it. It was one of the best decisions they ever made on my behalf. I devoured those books for many years. Although it had limitations,it showed me how many things there were to BE fascinated with. I ended up being the first known person in my extended family to actually go to college... and graduate....
   By the time I was a senior in high school, I had decided on a Philosophy major, because it allowed me to meddle in everyone's business. ☺ I didn't have a full career, but the basic concepts about "how to think" have made a huge difference in my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

Arthur Mee's Children's Encyclopedia was one of my main books from about 7 to around 10. Loved it and must have read about 90% of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 04:35 PM

My parents bought me 'NewnesPictorial Knowledge', ten volume encyclopaedia, which I loved. Superbly written for a child of eight or nine and upwards, and with fabulous illustrations. I read it constantly.

I was enthralled by the section on Egyptology, and I was thrilled when I visited the Cairo Museum in 2002 (at the age of 55) and recognised exhibits which I'd seen in photographs back in the 1950s.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 04:57 PM

The Children's Encyclopedia made me what I am. I devoured it, all ten volumes, cover to cover, from the age of about seven onwards. Looking back, there was an awful lot of God-squaddery in it, but that didn't rub off as I was being thoroughly indoctrinated by Catholicism anyway. There was also a lot of the Great British Empire saving Darkest Africa, but, somehow, that eluded me too. It was definitely a tome of its time. But it was beautifully pitched at children and it imbued a sense of wonder and an enthusiasm for knowledge. Interesting man was Arthur. I raise a glass to him, in spite of his inveterate temperance!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 05:34 PM

There were 3 international Jewish financiers.

Of course losing WWI may have had something to do with the huge reparations France wanted from Germany.

What Senofou said was 87 year old racist propaganda in which a feeling = fact in the same way Trump facts go virtually unchallenged.
It is an example of not thinking for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 05:45 PM

Steve - "The Children's Encyclopedia made me what I am." But... but... Yer old!! ;-)

Re the earlier comments, I wouldn't then have had the perspective to think about what was what or why it was. I was more or less happy with the education I was getting, whilst I was getting it, I think. But with hindsight I suggest two reasons for the "halcyon days" notion.

First, Time & Motion, metrics, and other such things (that ultimately lead to bloody league tables) had scarcely been thought of, if it all. Across the whole country, no-one was thinking about "efficiency", "share-holder value", and all that crap. I suspect that, in general, you were assumed to be at least OK at your job, provided you didn't screw up, so were mostly left to get on with things.

Second, from the political angle, the left have always been into education. "Only by lifting the blinkers from the proletariat's eyes!!!" Etcetera... ;-) But I've always been of the opinion that back in the day, the left were more interested, in education anyway, in being able to control policy, rather than in proselytising on the shop floor, if you see what I mean. It was an achievement to be able to direct budgets, set curricula, etc; to influence more subtly, rather than to browbeat.

The two factors combine with the result that you were not subjected to the micro-management of metrics & league tables that seems to be the norm these days. There's a third factor, too - no blame culture back then. If the kid was unruly, the teacher / school wasn't automatically blamed for it. Management didn't permanently have half an eye on "will I / we be blamed for something going wrong" which pervades absolutely every industry these days.

Not so much "halcyon days" as just... A simpler world!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 06:16 PM

We had the Childrens' Encyclopedia, and I must have read most of it. In fact it generally had an anti-Catholic spin much of the time, but that didn't rub off on me either. The enthusiasm that ran through it, and a sort of equal opportunitiy policy for all kinds of human knowledge and activity, may have to some extent.

Perhaps there needs to be some kind of Childrens' Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 06:32 PM

Yes Don, quite right. WWI is one of my "fascinated" periods of history. The "stab in the back", Senoufou, really is a complete myth, perpetrated by the right wingers (not just the Nazis, it was just that they won the political battle) to explain Germany's defeat.

The notion that their post-war economy was dominated by Jewish financiers is a new one on me (I admit, I start getting a bit hazy about the inter-war years!). The "stab in the back", blamed on Jews, was about what happened during WWI. It's all nonsense, of course. Germany lost because it couldn't beat Britain & France combined. And the Yanks finally turned up to the party & the rest was inevitable.

What Hitler did was not to "hypnotise" or to tap into any particularly racist or anti-Semitic sentiment. Yes, there was a long under-current (and sometimes over-current) of anti-Semitism in Europe. It isn't terribly controversial to say that Jews contributed to that & always had done. If you insist on looking different, sounding different, being different... You are always making of your community a target, however inoffensive & well-meaning you may consider yourself. The real irony here being that the financiers who might have been complained of had been doing their best to be more English than the English, more German the Germans, etc, for a good 50 years or more. Oh, and look up the Dreyfuss Affair some time. Germany had no monopoly on anti-Semitism!

But what really happened is that Hitler tapped into a current of despair & resentment. Germany had lost. It had lost in such a way that people could pretend they hadn't *really* lost. Some of their prominent military leaders, such as Ludendorff fed the "International Jewry" (which was a notion that had also been around for 50+ years), "stab in the back" psychosis. And the Nazis, the majority of whom believed in it too, took advantage.

But the key factor is despair & resentment, not anti-Semitism. Many were undoubtedly attracted to the National Socialists who might not have been had the French been less inclined to grind Germany's face into the dirt. It's also worth remembering that when they won their election, I've forgotten the exact figure, but if memory serves, in a rather suspect election, the Nazi's shenaniganed their way into power on about 28% of the vote...

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 06:42 PM

The anti-Catholic spin was precisely the reason it didn't rub off on me. We wee Catholics were well trained to resist even the merest hint of proselytisation from any other quarter.

As for halcyon days, that's your characterisation, not mine. I had plenty of struggles whilst employed by ILEA, I can assure you. We had the fact of drastic education cuts perpetrated by a LABOUR government, we were castigated, nay threatened, by the establishment in the NUT when we threatened industrial action over cuts and compulsory teacher redeployment (I have two threatening letters addressed personally to me from Fred Jarvis, if anyone remembers him), we had struggles over asbestos in schools (one of my former colleagues, a much-loved one at that, died of mesothelioma several years ago - in 1978 I had a sample from our decaying staff room ceiling analysed which was found to contain blue asbestos - as they say in the US, go figure). My friend Blair Peach, one of the very finest people it was my good fortune to call a mate, was bludgeoned to death for no good reason by a police truncheon. Plenty more stuff like that. Clear cases of child abuse glossed over. I won't go on. Happy days and sad days in many regards, but halcyon? Your word, mate, not mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 06:51 PM

Ummm... No, Steve. "Halcyon days by any measure." Those are YOUR words. Not mine. Go back to 5/10/16 7:58PM and go "Oh! Bugger..." ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 07:53 PM

Jaysus, so they are, but just think. You got me thinking so hard about it all that I had to modify. Halcyon aspects then. Bugger. But what I've described was more good than bad. But we had more passion in us, somehow, and less cynicism. We thought we really could change things. And we did have punk...

Then we had Thstcher.

You got me there though, no messing. But wotchit. I'm on your case...😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 07:55 PM

I hate her so much that I can't even bring myself to spell her name right.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 09:59 PM

Egyptology enthusiasts:

Dr. Sarah Parka has found 99% more archeological structures in Egypt using satellite tech. Infrared combined with lidar xray etc. from 450 miles up.

Check out the Kunkle theory how the great pyramid was a public work project that irrigated the fertile land.




Going back even more the Saxon Kings did not treat Jews prejudicially. The rest of the post is quite knowledgably and as an abstract, accurate. However what Tom Lehrer said in National Brotherhood Week is true. "Everybody hates the Jews"

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 10:09 PM

When I posted the Devil's Island remark I planted the suggestion of the Dreyfus affair.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 10:28 PM

journal of clinical hypnosis


Backwoodsman,


I have read about 3% of the 1,000 issues ( not much will )


Don't think I'm smarter than you.
My IQ is 42
It's only 42
but I'm not through.
I took less than half the test.
and got the ultimate answer to the universe

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:42 AM

It may not interest anyone else, but I can tie together the original opening post, the Children's Encyclopedia, Donuel's flash memory comments and even Bill D's philosophy in a single event.

I guess many children began reading the Children's Encyclopedia with its section on stories. I certainly did, and in particular the subsection "Tales from Many Lands". So at just about seven I read one from China or Japan, concerning a time-honoured mirrors were rare and only owned by the wealthiest in the land. As a result, very few people really knew what they looked like.

One day a farmer was digging in his field and found a mirror, not knowing what it was. When he wiped the dirt off it he was astonished to see he had found a portrait of his father. Amazed at this he took in home and put it in a cupboard wrapped in a cloth. And many times he went to look at this wonderful portrait.
After a little while his wife noticed him taking something from the cupboard, gazing at it and the wrapping it back up and closing the cupboard. So one day when he was out working she went to cupboard and took out the mysterious parcel. Imagine her shock to find it was a portrait of a beautiful young woman!   So when her husband came home there was a blazing row, each arguing that it was a portrait of what they said.

Eventually the noise attracted the attention of a nearby priest who came to see what was the matter, and each loudly and emphatically proclaimed what the portrait was and how they were wronged by the other. So the priest took the mirror and looked at it. Then he told them they were both wrong and it was a portrait of learned holy man and took it away and placed it in a shrine in his temple.
------

I was seven when I first read that story. And immediately I understood several things at the same time. Firstly, it was a good entertaining story. Secondly, that was not its point: it was actually about how what we see in the world is a reflection of us; we see very much what we want to see. There are no observations that are truly independent of the observer. And even the most learned of us can fall into the trap as easily as the least learned.

So what is fact and what is feeling in this case? And more importantly and more generally, how do you know? They are not that easy to disentangle. A good teacher - and in this case it was a book reporting on a form of teaching centuries old - can open a new way of looking at things in an instant, even if most of the time it is a long slow slog. And flash memories can form from intellectual revelations, not just emotions in the more obvious sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:47 AM

Time-honoured should be time when. Autocorrect again.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 04:46 AM

No idea what my IQ is, Donuel. AFAIK, it's never been tested - or maybe it was, but we weren't advised of the results? It's a mystery to me.

Whatever, I did comparatively well at a good school and held down several jobs as an accountant for a total of 49 years, became a reasonably proficient, self-taught guitar player and singer, played in a number of bands in various musical styles (still do play and sing in a folk-trio), and still do occasional gigs as a solo performer. All good AFAIC, Apart from my wife and my dog, I need nothing more. 👍😎

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 08:37 AM

My IQ is very high but I know damn well that it doesn't mean a thing other than that I'm good at doing IQ tests.

I learned far more about morality by reading Aesop's Fables in the Children's Encyclopedia than I did in 13 years of Catholic religious "education," by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 09:05 AM

In reacting against that Steve, you are every bit as influenced by it as the most enthusiastic believer. Perhaps more so.

But that's as true in all aspects of education, and in other situations. Whatever the intended message may be - and there always is an intended message - it's quite likely to have the opposite effect.

The cartoonist Feifer had a strip I remember - a man saying he realised his son reacted against what he said, so, hoping to get him to grow up with liberal beliefs, for years he used to say stuff designed to make him react that way, racist, sexist stuff and so forth. Than when the kid had grown up he told him that he'd been thinking it over, and now he realised that his son was right in his liberal views. "We used to argue all the time - now we don't seem to have anything to say to each other..."

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 09:28 AM

DMcG, that tale about the mirror reminds me of the Mirror of Erised in 'Harry Potter And The Philosopher's Stone'. Whoever looks in it sees what their heart desires, not the actual truth.
But of course, each one of us views the world from the standpoint of our own experiences, upbringing and even genetics. I remember a few fascinating tutorials in Moral Philosophy at Uni, about The Truth, and Self-Evident Truths etc.
And how much can one judge a person if they act in antisocial ways if their background and family life have been horrendous? Back to the old 'Punishment and Blame' conundrum.
I do think one can modify one's opinions and erroneous beliefs, but only if one wishes to. (And the fact one wishes to means that too is a part of one's character...)

Donuel, I did not wish to imply that the Jews actually were behind the financial disasters in Germany between the Wars, only that the majority of the population thought so, and used them a scapegoats for their shame at defeat in WW1. Hitler built on this, and manipulated minds towards feeling superior and nationally proud again by his bizarre speeches. Not hypnotism, but charismatic persuasion.

My rather superstitious mother used to say just after the War that the Devil had got into Hitler (she was Irish!) but my father used to reply that it was nothing to do with the Devil, just evil minds and manipulation, and a whole people willing to be uplifted and carried away by opportunist rhetoric that chimed with their innermost desires. (Like the Mirror of Erised in fact)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 10:04 AM

I think, looking back, that I'm far more influenced, or "modified" if you like, by the stuff I went and grabbed for myself (Aesop's Fables) than by the stuff I had poured over me (Catholic indoctrination). The former went deep and is strangely and obstinately persistent; the latter, eventually, washed off. But I still see the dirty water. If that's what you mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 01:44 PM

Senofou, I figured it was one of those Wikipedia things, don't worry about it. Besides,

I'm not actually a Jew. I did not do my bar mitzvah. Nor do I appear Semitic. My color is the pink side of the Powder character with blue eyes and strawberry blonde hair (white temples). (real Hitler youth looks)   My respect for education and curiosity is Jewish. I am not the scholar I was expected to be because of the reading thing.

In grade school They advanced me two grades to prove to me I was not the reader I thought I was.





DMcG

I love mirror stories. The book The Turbulent Mirror is full of cosmological mirror stories. I have 4 mirrors in the living room arranged in such a way you can stand right next to someone and see your reflections but if you take one step forward your image disappears.
I used to be fond of the symmetry theory.


Fiefer is a genius and a hero of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

I once stayed in a B&B in Bath in which our bathroom was smothered in mirrors on all the walls. I swear it was the first and only time in my whole life that I could see my own arse totally undistorted by having to indulge in at least a little contortionism.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 02:46 PM

Donuel, going back to your op, I'd 'parse' that a bit more. I think it is more like people often don't distinguish between feelings (emotions) and thoughts (cognitions.) Then, they often don't recognize the difference between belief and fact. Beliefs are not limited to religion, spirituality or values.

I listen to way too much news radio on NPR. Often I notice how even very erudite experts who are being interviewed will say "I feel..." instead of "I think...," when what follows is clearly the expression of a thought or observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:03 PM

"I feel" meaning "I think" - that reflects the way that our thought are a combination of what we believe to be the case concerning the outside world, and how we feel emotionally about this.

If I were talking about the outcome of the American election and said "I feel Trump might win" that would be a combination of my belief that that would be what would happen and my apprehension and fear of that happening. A Trump supporter using the words would be doing so with different emotions. If I said ""I think" that would tend to imply that I was at least attempting to be neutral and dispassionate.

But in most things our emotions and our beliefs are tied together. Even a scientist conducting an experiment is likely to have some emotional preferance for one result rather than another.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:12 PM

I avoid blooming mirrors whenever I can. I just check my clothes are tidy and my hair is fairly normal-looking, and that's it. Avoidance tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:19 PM

I agree, McGrath. There is great utility, however, in consciously recognizing that within ourselves. That makes for greater capacity to make conscious choices instead of unconscious choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:29 PM

Didn't say that quite right. Our interpretations are influenced by emotion. If we are unaware of that, we are much more likely to accept our perceptions and interpretations as 'fact' or 'truth' (also not synonyms) and to assume beliefs are either 'true' or 'fact', and thus, not examine them. People who operate from the most closed paradigms are the least likely to understand they operate from a paradigm, thus mistaking paradigm for reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:29 PM

That's right. Consciously recognising it in ourselves should be at the heart of true education. Seeking knowledge for ourselves, recognising the quality of evidence and never accepting the unsupported word of anyone who has assumed authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 07:41 PM

It is not hearts or minds it is hearts and minds. When whopper lies are told it is up to the mind to determine validity. People of low information do not take the extra step of using their mind. Not just willfully but due to the way they process information mentally.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 08:28 PM

Not sure I understand what you mean by 'low information', Donuel. I agree that it is not hearts or minds but hearts and minds, assuming that you mean emotions by hearts. And don't leave out the physiological. Also agree with you, Steve, assuming you also include 'the self' when you speak of those who assume authority.

Not a perfect model, but one I often use is what in CBT is called "the cognitive equation."

Event (may be internal, external or include elements of both) ---> Perception (what one takes in through the 5 senses and that varies by individual) --->Interpretation (this includes beliefs about ourselves, others and the world, value judgements, social learning, socialization, past experiences and the extent to which those experiences have been generalized, etc. knowledge, emotional learning or distortions, etc.)---> Reaction( in therapy usually call attention to the emotional response, but the reaction usually includes emotion, physiological response and cognitions.) I usually draw this as a circle and not as a linear process. The reaction itself is also an 'event.'

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 08:52 PM

Well, a good education in critical thinking would automatically preclude "self," as you would already have questioned the validity of you or anyone else assuming the mantle of authority. You don't take anyone's word for anything at all, no matter how high and mighty, unless they can produce evidence. And that definitely includes self.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 09:26 PM

Not sure I can agree with you there, Steve. Critical thinking is a cognitive method. It certainly can be taught. But it is entirely a cognitive process.

I know some very good critical thinkers who are emotional morasses and feel mostly miserable outside of their work. Great engineers, researchers, physicians, scientists, etc. No personal insight whatsoever, though, or if they do have personal insight, unable to translate that insight into functional, satisfying lives and relationships. Often very poor social skills, numerous failed marriages, kids that want nothing to do with them. Critical thinking is a great skill to have. Don't make a religion of it however.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 10:07 PM

(Better not mention religion to Steve, Janie. It tends to set him off...)
.............
You're right to mention physiology - for example I'll find myself getting irritable, it's my blood sugar getting low, I need a meal, making mistakes, means I'm getting tired, need a rest. And there's all kinds of stuff like that, hormones, lack of sunlight...

We can tell ourselves and others we're rational and we're in control, but that's only true to a limited extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:02 AM

It is worth remembering that evidence is not just the purely factual like my chemical flame tests. Much of the time of evidence is incomplete in that sense and then we have to rely on much less reliable stuff like balance of probabilities and interpretations based on empathetic judgements. We can still apply critical thinking but we need to recognise what it can and can't achieve in these circumstances.

Several members of my family have had CBT and they all found it incredibly helpful (as did those around them!) One, for example, was caught in a hurricane as a teenager and her quite understandable fears of that transferred themselves to any sort of bad weather for the rest of her adult life. CBT "cured" this for her, at least to a significant extent. You could say it was an example of critical thinking, as a significant part involved her recognising how often the roof didn't blow off, that the odd lost tile was replaced quickly and cheaply and so on. But I think that would be mistaken because it is all at the factual level and any "cure' must be at an emotional level because by definition the fear is an emotion.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:34 AM

Another example of where facts needed to take a back seat is someone with a life long battle with anorexia. Even to the extent of being hospitalised. Much medical intervention was needed including CBT and the whole thing was being controlled with effort, including occasional CBT refreshes.

So when she went to the GP for something unrelated and the locum threw in the comment "You could do with losing a bit of weight" the factual correctness was the least important thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 04:16 AM

"It is not hearts or minds it is hearts and minds. When whopper lies are told it is up to the mind to determine validity. People of low information do not take the extra step of using their mind. Not just willfully but due to the way they process information mentally." - Donuel

1: "It is not hearts or minds it is hearts and minds."

Totally agree.

2: "When whopper lies are told it is up to the mind to determine validity."

Very true but that should be done irrespective. When you are told anything that isn't blatantly obvious validity should always be determined.

3: "People of low information do not take the extra step of using their mind."

Again very true. Case in point is an incident that resulted in a fire and 134 deaths, where someone of low information, who did not use their mind managed to place the blame for the incident on a completely innocent party who had the available information been taken into account it would have become blatantly obvious that the person accused by this other person of low information could not possibly have been at fault.


Question is: Was that available information wilfully ignored or was it purely as a result of the way that someone processes information mentally?

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 06:04 AM

We're human beings. Critical thinking can be switched on and off. Some of the greatest scientists in history went, or go, to Sunday Mass and worship without demur a non-existent deity during a service with a lot of brainless chanting in it conducted by a man wearing a frock. On Monday morning they are perfectly capable of reapplying their critical faculties to the full back in the lab. That's what makes us different from Vulcans.

This is why it's really important to recognise that education is about enthusing people to grab knowledge for themselves and to accept nothing, especially when it's surprising or unexpected or appears to go against nature, without asking for evidence. Suppose I take my six-year-old to a match at Anfield. Liverpool thrash Chelsea and we're both over the moon. On the way home I tell the lad that Liverpool are the greatest team in the world. He's very likely to agree with me (and is that much more likely to become a long-term Liverpool supporter - I am his dad after all, and he is only six and still has plenty to learn).

That's a relatively harmless example but it shows how easy it is to use "dishonest" means to persuade someone of a "fact" that is no such thing. Now suppose I tell YOU that Liverpool are the greatest team in the world. You'd probably tell me to sod off or something, but let's suppose you decided to engage me instead. Either you'd try to disprove my claim by arguing the merits of West Ham instead (which makes you just as bad as me, but it's what football fans do) or you may decide to ask me for the basis of my claim. It wouldn't take you long, even if you weren't a particular footie fan, to take me to pieces on every piece of "evidence" I gave you. I won't labour the point.

OK, now apply that to religion (Kevin did warn you)...

And DMcG is dead right. To put the point another way, evidence is what stacks up. It is never proof. There will always be the balance of probabilities. Critical thinking requires inspecting evidence for its honesty and quality. We humans are rather good at not only coming to conclusions based on very shaky evidence but also living our lives according to it. It can be fun but it can have very serious consequences. Leaving the EU for example, or forcing faith on people.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:11 PM

I am glad some of you have left room for intuition or something like it. Modern science still sees the subject through controversial glasses.


In the US low information voters are people with little current events information and usually no college education. They are NOT knee jerk stupid. There is no cure for stupid. Ignorant possibly, but not slack jaw stupid. 5 beers short of a six pack maybe, but not...


Beware the Ives of Teribus when he agrees with you. It makes me wary.
He has never been stupid by a long shot. Its the long shot that worries me.


Steve we all get the lies shared by politics, religion and faith. No need to overplay your hand,

We are all a sum of our parts. Its how you manipulate those parts that matter. :*)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:25 PM

Steve's thesis of objective thinking is an excellent base line for non prejudicial thinking.

Perhaps a three dimension form of objective thinking is what I call 'Perspectiveism' . A multidisciplinary, multi cultural, time omniscient and global point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:34 PM

DMcG We have both seen how a strategic blunder can lead to a new insight and provable fact. Blunders can lead to wonders solved.
I respect the blunder, of that I am resolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 04:19 PM

I'm a firm believer in the benefit of intuitive thinking, in combination with critical thinking, Donuel. My definition of intuitive thinking refers to unconscious pattern recognition. Interesting article here.   Analytical/Intuitive thinking

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:18 PM

Holistic is by far more succinct than saying "Perhaps a three dimension form of objective thinking is what I call 'Perspectiveism' . A multidisciplinary, multi cultural, time omniscient and global point of view.

I guess you know what it is like to stop what you are doing and look in the direction that feels funny only to discover someone staring at you.

You can practice gaining access to a holistic mind but it is best to be born with holistic wiring. Some people may have a holistic mind but can not describe the holistic consciousness to others. Others may have full access and communication with a holistic brain and become impressive impromptu speakers.

People who are not holistic thinkers I have for years called linear.
They are geniuses of an essential order. Our society could not work without them. However they make poor navigators and leaders of humanistic goals&desires. Unfortunately they are more often chosen for clear cut leadership roles. The age old administration verses the teachers with vision is an example.

House MD is about a holistic knowledgeable doctor vs the administration.


Holistic thinkers can also be the new age con who mediates to the Aurealians who visit them via channeling. There are some major loons out there who take a good thing too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:22 PM

I was never a great fan of Edward de Boho because I always felt he was adept at presenting unoriginal ideas. Nevertheless some of the ideas are worthwhile and the six hat approach, or whatever he called it has some merit. It is a bad idea to get too fixed to a single way of thinking. Critical thinking is is important for evaluating ideas that are presented to you, or that you came up with. But it is not an especially good way of coming up with ideas in the first place.

So yes, I value intuition as well.

There was a satirical programme years ago on British TV called "That was the week that was" and I remember being struck by a in one intro:

One eye open wide, one eye closed,
and between the two, the picture gets composed.

Sage advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:23 PM

De Bono

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM

I'm inclined to think intuitive thinking can be refined and developed but not taught. Either one is wired for it or one is not. Don't know that I would assert one is either born with it or not. The early brain is very plastic and while genetics certainly factor into the potentialities, I think the matrix of nurture/nature in those very early years - the development and pruning of neural pathways in response or reaction to very early experiences, is more responsible for how our brains develop and ultimately operate than pure biology and genetics alone.

Which, now that I think about it, suggests that some children by school age may learn critical thinking skills more readily than others. While the brain is most plastic during the first 2-4 years of life than at any other time, still quite plastic well into adolescence, and never completely loses plasticity, so it is always possible to teach or to improve critical thinking skills.

Keeping in mind that critical thinking is about how to think, not what to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 06:00 PM

I'd be happier with the link about analytical versus intuitive thinking if the author hadn't confused the cornea with the retina. Errors like that, rightly or wrongly, make you dubious about other statements in the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 06:49 PM

I do not believe that it is factual, that facts are retained better when grabbed than when stuffed - the fact is, knowledge is retained when it is USED, regardless of how it got there.

If you wait till kids WANT to know the multiplication table, for example, they won't learn it; then when they need it, it won't already be there. Do the drills to make them memorize it by rote, then when they need it, they will have it.

Either way, once they have to use it they will retain it, but in the second case, they didn't have to go back and learn it with the difficulty of an adult learning a foreign language. Instead, they got it with ease.

Also, if children aren't made to work during the industry v. inferiority stage they don't develop into hard workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 07:54 PM

For the third time, I never said that schools should be fact-free zones. For the second time, I'm very grateful that I was made to chant 7x8=56 a thousand times. Wise teachers know the difference between essential building blocks and inessential fact-stuffing. I'm really not a complicated chap. I sometimes think that people want to disagree with me about everything because I don't like God or something. Do proceed.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 08:46 PM

Writing cornea instead of retina seems like a pretty straight forward dyslexic mistake to me. Thinking that dyslexia is a backwards kind of problem is a myth. Word retrieval is central to the problem of dyslexia. To many that is an indication of stupidity.

It can be, but a dyslexic person can find work arounds and compensation strategies to avoid the outward appearance of stupidity.
Defensiveness can be exhausting and repetitive.

If you are dyslexic you are always thinking in translation of a picture or a double association with a word you are seeking. Sometimes it does not come especially in conversation and an awkward pause develops. It is like stuttering but is one step removed from pronouncing the word. It is a stutter of silence in search of the word you have already selected in thought.

Other people may assume that the person is having a dementia problem or is a sandwich short of a picnic.

Then again if the moron doesn't know a cornea from a retina he's got to be full of it overall.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:05 PM

I think intuitive thinking gets confused with 'touchy-feely' because 'it feels right' can mean two separate things.

With intuitive thinking, there is an "aha" moment, when a piece of the puzzle snaps into place and suddenly the picture or pattern makes sense, or begins to make sense. Or at least a hypothesis presents itself that one can find a way to test.

"It feels right" can also refer to reacting or making choices purely from emotion without considering what the emotion is actually signaling.

Intuition may 'feel' instinctive, but is not. Emotion and instinct are not synonymous but are closely related with respect to the basic emotions rooted in the limbic system.

Disclaimer here. I don't entirely know what I am talking about. I'm a psychotherapist, not a neuroscientist.

Anyway, while I think emotions and the capacity for empathy figure somehow into intuition (when working with people), and that intuition involves some unconscious processes that involve emotion, I think those unconscious processes also likely involve rational cognitive processes taking place 'behind the scene' so to speak. My understanding is people like Einstein, Hawking, and Dyson, brilliant theoretical scientists, are/were both intuitive and critical thinkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 03:56 AM

I would agree Donuel that confusing cornea and retina can be a straightforward mistake and in itself is no indicator of stupidity.   This is especially the case in conversation. If you were to judge my intelligence based on the number of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors I made on Mudcat you would put me prettyy low indeed. But published articles, even on the Internet, are not conversation. If you are serious about what you write, you check it, recheck it, ideally get someone else to check it... in short you put in effort to make sure it is as well expressed as possible. And these sorts of errors should be eliminated in the at process.

I was thinking about this last night and the situation appears to be this. A person you know tells you something with five facts. Two of them you knew and the person has told them correctly. This biases you to think that, if there is no other evidence available, the three remaining facts are more likely to be true. Now suppose the facts you knew before are incorrectly described. That biases you to think the remainder may not be true.
But this assumes an honest companion. Suppose he is dishonest and wants to persuade you of one false statement. This bias mechanism suggests the best way is to surround it with true statements. Hence th3 advice you sometimes hear that to lie successfully it is best to stick as close. To the truth as you can.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 07:38 AM

I'm afraid that the whole paragraph with the offending cornea reference in it is pseudoscientific bullshit. And I'm trying to be kind. For thirty years I've been reading my local weekly newspaper and, for a while, was assuming that the reporters on it, some of whom I've known, have no tabloidistic axe to grind. One day there was an article about me (getting an A-star in GCSE music at the age of 46, I hasten to add). The "quotes" by me in the article bore no resemblance to what I'd actually said to the reporter. Made a good story though. Aha. From that day on I've found it impossible to trust the detail of any report I read in that paper. Same with yer man and his cornea. My analytical side would press me to read the rest of it and check every detail for its veracity. My intuitive side suggests that he's thrown out the baby with the bath water, the game's not worth the candle and that I'd better look elsewhere for edification. And that's definitely over-analysing my intuitive side ! 😉

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 09:10 AM

I'm afraid that the whole paragraph with the offending cornea reference in it is pseudoscientific bullshit.

Yep. There's a lot of it about. That's why we need the critical thinking.

Jamie made a comment about "intuitive" being misunderstood. The same is true of "critical thinking". It is not negative thinking as the offending article (!) claimed. It's sole purpose is to test a claim and a solid claim will withstand thorough criticism. Negative thinking, on the other hand, may well dismiss something on spurious grounds.

It is, by way of analogy, how skills are improved by recognising and addressing their weaknesses. That is not negative.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 09:14 AM

Janie.   Sorry!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 10:25 AM

When I was just twenty five and practicing hypnosis in a private practice I was too young to have the wisdom to tackle the big problems like domestic abuse in situations when the abuser was a respected sitting judge and the victims were his wife and daughter. There were no eye phone cameras so I suggested taped evidence of the abuse would be valuable at a future time and the courage to accept separation. This led me to the "future self" concept that probably has a name but I swear it felt like I had invented it.

In situations where it was a challenge to listen to a kid like me and people were suffering from anxiety, I deferred to the future self of the client to offer a solution and/or comfort. In as profound a state of hypnosis as possible I would suggest a chance encounter with their future self requires they listen and watch very carefully and then I would shut up, wait four minutes and suggest how good and happy they feel that they want to laugh out loud, remembering all their future self has said told them.

If they wanted to tell me what was said some would describe how their future self was dressed and how surprised they were to meet them at all. The message given them was usually short. It might be that they know more than they need to know. Or, the future self was the person they were striving to become in confidence and career.

I could go on and on but this really worked. If it didn't a direct classic PHS was used.


btw I used to steer subjects away who did not achieve deeper hypnotic states prior to suggestion. referrals are a good thing.


NOW WHY DO I BRING THIS UP?

I really don't know why, but intuitively I feel it will be of some value to someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 10:57 AM

On Sundays PBS often airs shows by Chopra, Tanzi, Dwyer, and a host of other shows with names like SUPER Brain which recommend a good diet and, in every case, what I would call fundamental hypnosis.
Only the presentation, jokes and new emerging brain science are different.

This not a criticism but rather a tribute to those who make their own brand name.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:21 PM

It's interesting and illustrative to notice how we interpret that article differently.

It is not a scientific or academic article and is targeted at a particular audience - attorneys who are mediators. That doesn't mean it should not be critiqued and it's flaws noted, but does suggest that context matters.

I did not interpret the article to be negative with respect to the merits of critical thinking, nor to suggest that intuitive thinking should be preferred over critical thinking. I interpreted him to be pointing out to attorneys who mediate that mediation may be more likely to be successful if the mediator is able to incorporate both intuitive and analytical thinking in their attempts to assist opposing parties come to agreement.

Now, my interpretation is shaped by my own personal and professional experiences, training and paradigm, which is oriented toward the psychosocial and interpersonal relationships and transactions. I'm not a researcher, scientist or academic. I am a practicing social worker. What comes to mind for me when I think of mediation are divorce and child custody issues. For some of you, when you think of mediation, you may think more in terms of mandatory arbitration between labor/business or customer/corporation. When the focus of the mediation is as much about the intangibles of relationships and the internal emotional states of people, some intuitive thinking on the part of the mediator is more likely to result in a mediated outcome vs. an embittered court battle that ultimately can be very destructive for all parties. The intangibles are less important, and perhaps not at all important in some instances.

I don't value intuitive thinking over critical thinking. The emphasis on critical thinking resulted in DmG closely evaluating the details of the article and finding the factual flaws, which then lead him to not just doubt the conclusion of the article, but to arrive at a different understanding of the conclusion than did I. What I came away with was more of a global, big picture impression, and found I agreed with the perspective that it was a useful article with a valid conclusion, dispite some problems with the details. I was aware of some of the flaws but not as many of the flaws as DmG noted. Even after reading DmG's criticisms, which I think are valid, I still agree with the premise of the article, and still don't understand the article to be dissing analytical thinking. I don't think comparing and contrasting, or noting the strengths and weaknesses of differing approaches constitutes being negative, and especially don't think suggesting that successful mediation is more likely to result from incorporating elements of both intuitive and critical thinking is negative or is advocating for intuitive thinking over critical thinking in this context. That is from my paradigm and frames of reference. I don't think it is a question of one of us is right or correct in our interpretations and the other is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:46 PM

Let's being with an outright apology. When I read the article I also looked around a bit more of the site and came across the phrase "critical or negative thinking". It was a mistake on my part to think that came from the linked article when a 'find on page' shows the author didn't use the word negative at all. My blunder (which, as Donuel said, I may learn from!)

I didn't closely evaluate the article, though. Or at least, no more than anything else I read. Some level of critical review is second nature to me. But so is some level of other kinds of thinking. In the past month or so I have posted that I passed a lorry with the serial number MGL2560 and noticed it was (almost) a ceasar cypher of my surname, or that I passed a BMW 5350d and noticed that, upside down, that is POSES and so a hair's breadth from POSER. So a playful view of the world is also second nature. Then I was in Inverness recently where a lot of street signs are written in both gaelic and English and noticed the gaelic for church is similar to the French.   That's neither analytic nor playful. And so on.

So if the message of the article is simply don't stick to one way of thinking I am in complete agreement. But there's no reason to write a careless article to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:50 PM

Begin. Sigh

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:18 PM

I did not notice the mix-up between iris and cornea until you pointed it out. In part because I always have to stop and think "which is which" *blush* and in part because I pretty much skipped over the analogy part of the article since it was clear where he was headed after the first couple of lines.

I agree with you re being careful and thorough when writing for publication. Had it been a scientific or academic article it would have been peer reviewed. I also suspect you are more diligent and have to work less hard at critical thinking than do I.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

I also have a problem with analogies that don't work. This cornea/retina was supposed to be a helpful analogy but all it did for Steve and I was to set metaphorical teeth on edge. Bad analogies do that to me I am afraid.   I was at a staff training day which had a "motivational speaker". One of his slides was a signpost at a crossroads with directions labelled 'integrity', 'customer service', 'efficiency' and I forget the fourth. But hang on, what are you saying here? Customer service is opposed to integrity? Improving efficiency lowers integrity?

Apart from being a pretty picture, what is the signpost supposed to be saying?

And it is the same here. Why use the eye as a metaphor given everything you intend to use it for is erroneous? Pick a metaphor you understand and that actually supports your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Janie
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:22 PM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 02:33 PM

"We can tell ourselves and others we're rational and we're in control, but that's only true to a limited extent."

We're animals with some extra higher brain functions; nothing more, nothing less. Forget that & you're in trouble; remember that & suddenly a whole lot of things make a great deal more sense. It's probably the one thing more than any other that pisses me off about monotheism - "gaj (god / allah / Jehovah, that is) made this world for us & put us in charge of it". Or words to that effect. What a sad bloody loser gaj is then, cos look what we're doing & he's supposed to be omniscient which means he should have seen it coming...

If there is a gaj, he made the world (universe) and we are part of it. As you may guess (if you don't already know), I'm pagan, and I've sod all time for philosophies, religious or otherwise, that try to place humanity outside or above nature. But that is a whole other discussion!

"Now suppose I tell YOU that Liverpool are the greatest team in the world." Bugger off, Shaw, you Scouse git. And yes, I'm just as bad as you!! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Raedwulf
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 02:42 PM

By the way, Don - ignorant is the word you are probably looking for. Stupidity is an inability to comprehend; ignorance is a lack of factual grounding - what you call "low information". You can be stupid, you can be ignorant; you can be both or neither.

"Low information" is probably more diplomatic if slightly obscure, though. People are more likely to take offence at being called ignorant & not give you a chance to explain precisely what you mean! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 02:48 PM

I come from Radcliffe, just outside Manchester, as it happens, but belong to one of those families with a genetic, inbuilt and completely justified hatred of anything to do with M*n U.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 03:14 PM

You can also be highly intelligent, well versed in relevant facts, and still completely wrongheaded. Getting hold of the wrong end of the stick means that even though the stick points in the right direction, you go the other way.

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 03:28 PM

wulf, I had it right the first time and even included a joke to highlight the difference between stupid and ignorance."you can't cure stupid."

At least that's the way I see it.

To go boldly...perhaps we can cure stupid pharmaceutically.

Janie has been very informative and brought clarity to mediation issues I had.


ps
Today the future self concept is used in therapy in the form of writing letters or painting portraits of the future self

Subject: RE: BS: Feelings = Facts
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 03:40 PM

Inuition its more than a feeling