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BS: Go down you murderers...
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Subject: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Jun 01 - 05:25 PM This story doesn't seem to have received much attention in the media - but I think it deserves some.
Most countries have now turned their backs on judicial killing - but up till now it's often been somthing which has been done by politicians, with a nasty suspicion that if the people had their way, it'd be back.
But now in a referendum the Irish people have overwhelmingly voted to remove the possibility of the death penalty from the constitution of Ireland. In every constiutuency in the 26 counties people voted to guarantee the abolition of the death penalty, with an average of 62.08 per cent supporting the referendum.
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Brían Date: 09 Jun 01 - 06:00 PM Amen. No man said it better. Brían |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: katlaughing Date: 09 Jun 01 - 06:47 PM Admirable, McGrath, thank you. I have advocated having no death penalty here in the States, but I confess it did not disturb me to hear of plans for McViegh's execution on Monday. I am rather dismayed at myself for that. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: wdyat12 Date: 09 Jun 01 - 07:08 PM To be really cruel and revengefull, McViegh should be allowed to live. To be really humane and civel, McViegh should be executed. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Sorcha Date: 09 Jun 01 - 07:10 PM WOW! There might be a smidgen of hope yet....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 09 Jun 01 - 07:12 PM Perfectly natural kat... That man deserves no mercy for the callous mass murder of small children and ordinary people. I only advocate the use of the death penalty in extreme cases like this one (when there is no doubt of guilt at all) I regret that insanity would not be a reason to let someone off in my opinion. Protecting people should come first, and the danger of someone commiting more violence is a factor to determine it. A repeat, or mass murderer, then the death penalty should stand as the only suitable punishment. However, since it has been abused by judicial systems around the globe, I do not sanction its use for other killings. Yours, Aye. Dave If a madman where to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards. Samuel Johnson (1776) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Sorcha Date: 09 Jun 01 - 07:41 PM Even so, I am still sorrowing for Tim........yes, what he did was evil (therefore he might be....??), but for a man to know the hour of his death.........
I do sort of understand his feelings; that to die will stop the horror of waiting, and that to die is perhaps better than 50+years in prison, BUT--I could not give the injection/pull the switch, and I certainly could not/would not watch even if my child had been killed. Killing Tim won't make those people alive again, and it certainly won't be a deterrent for other terrorists. It will only keep Tim from doing it again, which he might have done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST,gareth Date: 09 Jun 01 - 07:58 PM Interesting one here. I loose no sleep on the execution of McVie, or indeed the death of any Bandit who makes the mistake of trying to shoot it out with the law. In the UK concept we have seen, in the last few years, enough incidents where alledged murderers, be it "political" in the Irish context, or non political, convicted with evidence hidden from the defense, and that only came to light many years later. Personnally I do not favour the death penalty, if for no other reason that it has in the past, and would in the future, act as an influence on a jury, and the aquital of a "guilty" person is just as big a miscarrige of justice as the conviction of an "innocent" person. In the folk tradition - try "Tom Dooley" or "She wears a Black Veil" - and "Joe Hill". Incidently my mother (aged 73)can still sing " The Ballard of Joe Hill " and "Harry Pollitt". She learn't them in her student days in the late 1940's, at Cardiff (pronounced Kairdiff) But then this is a BS thread, so lets get serious. The Irish have their posthumous hero's such as "Kevin Barry", or "Wolfe Tone's grave. The US of A with various elegys to "Jesse James", or, for example, "John Brown", and mob justice - in its many forms. And in Australia "Ned Kelly", "The Wild Colonial Boy" and whatever happened to the jumbuck ? I am new to Mud Cat - and I enjoy it - but please can anybody point me into the direction Songs about our local South Wales heros such as Davy Gam, Dik Pendaryn, Monnow Hal, or in more modern times, Nye Bevan, or going really old, Henry Morgan. Cheers Butties. Gareth. PS I registered with Mud Cat - but I is still marked as a Guest - What have I done wrong ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Jun 01 - 08:31 PM Gareth, start a thread "South Wales Heroes." You never know what will turn up. Your inquiry is lost in this thread on murderers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 09 Jun 01 - 08:49 PM Guest Gareth-go to the reset cookie thing,in the quicl links at the top of the page.welcome to mudcat.john |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Jun 01 - 09:04 PM I don't think there is any evidence at all to suggest that executing terrorists has ever had any effect other than to promote terrorism. It just doesn't work. If capital punishment is about stopping people murdering other people, terrorists are the worst candidates to pick for it.
Timothy McVeigh - as I read it, he's adopted the officially sanctioned military attitude towards civilian deaths, down to the term "collateral damage", and has imported it into his own personal campaign against the US government.
Horrible, but not all that different from the mindset of generals, politicians, and for that matter of many (most?)ordinary citizens who support the actions of their governments without question, even when that involves large numbers of totally innocent people being killed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 09 Jun 01 - 09:13 PM Sure as shit makes some think before becoming one McGrath. As for the rest... They cant do it again afterwards can they? Personally I prefer to see them dead, not grinning at their victims families, and getting early parole. (but I dont like the death penalty in general) Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Brían Date: 09 Jun 01 - 09:21 PM Dave, there's not a chance of the likes of McVeigh getting parole. Real justice would be him feeling remorse and asking for forgiveness, and there's still time for that. Brían |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 09 Jun 01 - 09:35 PM Real justice would have been him and his compatriots getting shot dead onscene before the bomb went off. Regretfully, we will never live free from terror of this kind (not in my lifetime anyway) We progress in time and technology but with little wisdom. At one time we were virtually defenceless against lions and tigers; now we are defenceless against our own kind. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: katlaughing Date: 09 Jun 01 - 11:42 PM McGrath, it may not be that different from what the government sanctions the military to do, but I think what gets to a lot of us is that what McV did was so unexpected. I do NOT mean, in any way, to defend atrocities of war or military actions, esp. against civilians, but at least we know there could be casualties when those things are put into action. Random acts of violence of individuals, esp. in the extreme, will always seem more horrific, IMO. I don't like the death penalty, as I said. I honestly cannot see what good it would do for the taxpayers to support McV living for another 50 years or whatever he would live to be, naturally. And, as I also said, I am surprised at myself for saying it. I have not followed this case in anything but a slight way, except when it happened, so it's not like I've invested all kinds of emotions in it. I think part of why I don't feel anything for him is his defiant stance of righteousness for his acts. It's difficult, for me at least, to care about someone so unrepenetant. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Justa Picker Date: 10 Jun 01 - 01:38 AM He should be taken to a building about to be demolished anyway, with 250 of his closest militia buddies, chained to desks on the top floor, with explosives on all the main support structures of the building ready to detonate. I'll gladly push the button. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST,SusanGoo2 Date: 10 Jun 01 - 02:30 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST,SusanGoo@Mindspring.com Date: 10 Jun 01 - 02:37 AM Sorry for the last post - bad case of trigger finger... I laid myself down upon my childbirth bed a liberal and rose up from it a death penalty understander. I held that child brought forth in blood and pain and understood then that anyone who hurt her was just committing suicide. They wanted to die because they greivously wounded my child. I still cannot erase the picture of the rescue worker running with the dying child in his arms. To this day, in my nightmares, that is my child. When I have the dream (more frequently of late) dawn finds me in my 9 year old daughter's bed, holding her as close as I can. Life itself is uncertain; remove the murderers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 10 Jun 01 - 07:56 AM Guest Susan. You put it perfectly. My job is saving lives and I swore an oath to save life and prevent human suffering. I would glady shoot anyone trying to murder children (without any feeling of guilt). If the children where mine? whoever was responsible would have to keep this in mind. There are only seven countries in the world you cannot get to by boat; and I can still walk if I have too! Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Gervase Date: 10 Jun 01 - 10:39 AM It's the kid thing that undoes any liberal feelings with me, I'm afraid. In theory I'm resolutely opposed to capital punishment - believing that none of us, singly or collectively, has the right to take another person's life, whatever their crime. In practice I'm a hypocrite. I recall being in court in Edinburgh some years back when a notorious child killer called Robert Black was being sent down for life after being found guilty of three hideous murders and an abduction that would have ended in murder had he not been caught fleeing the scene with a young girl trussed up in a sleeping bag in the back of his van. Before sentencing the psychiatric reports were presented to the court, and the gist of them was that such was Black's pathological problem that he could never be given liberty ever again; his compulsion sexually to abuse children and kill them was untreatable and he would forever remain a danger. I was sitting about five feet behind Black as the details of his crimes and his mental state were being laid out so dispassionatley and so shockingly. He was a shortish, stocky and unprepossessing sort of bloke, with cropped hair and very average looks. But he was very much alive; a living, breathing human being with a mother of his own and, at various stages in his life, women who had found something there to love. I remember his ears flushing red as details of his psychopathology were read out, and him sighing deeply and audibly when his previous convictions - going back nearly 30 years and ranging from petty thievery to sexual assaults and rapes - were catalogued. For all the enormity of his crimes, Black was a man - mad and bad, but nevertheless a person. Yet, had someone put a pistol in my hands and asked me to press the muzzle against the back of his neck and pull the trigger, I think I could have done so with few qualms. Subsequently I've often felt ashamed of my own feelings and reaction that day, but I still know that I could have killed him without compunction in the way that one wrings the neck of an animal to put it out of its misery. So maybe it is for the best that in the UK we've shelved capital punishment - it stops people like me giving in to their more visceral nature. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Gervase Date: 10 Jun 01 - 12:25 PM Rambling a bit here, but one of the problems with the death penalty in the USA is that it actually costs more to keep someone on death row than to incarcerate them for the rest of their natural life. The average prisoner spends more than a decade on death row. Thus it's hardly surprising that natural causes have killed more condemned men than the chair, the rope, gas or lethal injection put together (I blame all those cheeseburgers and fried chicken meals*) In that time the cost to the state of the legal rigmarole of appeal, counter-appeal and the like (according to a study by Duke University) runs to around $2 million more than it would cost simply to lock the bugger up and throw away the key. And to those who say: "Just hang 'em quicker and don't let the lawyers get fat", think of all those who have successfully appealed from death row and have subsequently been found to have been innocent. In the UK we have the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six to name just two cases (and the sad case of Timothy Evans, wrongly hanged for the murders at 10 Rillington Place), while in the USA you have the cases of Dennis Williams etc. *PS...does anyone know if the condemned man can still ask for a last cigarette? You can imagine the scene: Warder - "Any last requests?" Condemned man - "I could sure do with a smoke. Just one last drag, please..." Warder - "No way, son. The Surgeon General has decreed that cigarettes are seriously detrimental to your health and, as we run a caring and compassionate regime here, we simply cannot allow you to smoke. Think of the harm you're doing to your body!" Condemned man - "But what about 4,000 volts, or an armful of pethidine and potassium chloride? That's not exactly going to put a rosy glow on my cheeks, is it?"
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: CET Date: 10 Jun 01 - 01:01 PM I understand what Susan means when she says she is a death penalty understander. I would unquestionably kill, if it was within my power, any person that I knew was about to kill a child. I am not a liberal politically, nor am I a pacifist. I have been a commissioned officer for nineteen years. I have handled weapons, and I have some training in using them for their intended purpose, to kill people. I am also irrevocably opposed to the death penalty, even for creatures like McVeigh. It is a understandable, but dangerous, argument to liken the death penalty to self-defense. If someone is attacking a person under my protection I will fight back, and kill if I believe that is necessary. So would Ewan MacColl, I believe. He served in the British Army during the war. He fought because it was necessary. The death penalty is not self-defence. It is not the act of a parent who kills to protect her child. Like everything else in criminal law, it is a political decision, an expression of our collective will. I am a lawyer now, and for the past three years have been spending my time defending soldiers at courts martial as a military defence counsel. I know from personal experience, what I merely understood intellectually before, that the innocent are sometimes convicted, and that those who may be guilty are sometimes convicted without proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not possible to separate the McVeighs of this world from the common run of convicted criminals, all of whom (in democratic countries at any rate)were found guilty beyond reasonable doubt in public trials in accordance with the law. It is not possible to conduct a criminal trial on the standard of proving the accused's guilt beyond any doubt at all. Sometimes there truly is no doubt whatsoever as to the accused's guilt. McVeigh is a case in point. However, you cannot run a trial that way. The best we can do is to try like hell to get it right, which we do - most of the time. I feel no emotional pain about McVeigh's impending death. I resent the fact that I have to share my oxygen with Charles Manson. I am simply not willing to kill people like Timothy John Evans, God rest his soul, for the pleasure of ridding the earth of monsters. Edmund Thomas |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST,Felipa Date: 10 Jun 01 - 02:38 PM There are unanswered questions which McVeigh might answer if he lived long enough. Whatever he knows dies with him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:02 PM He should be taken to a building about to be demolished anyway, with 250 of his closest militia buddies, chained to desks on the top floor, with explosives on all the main support structures of the building ready to detonate.
I'll gladly push the button.
I imagine that's the kind of thing that McVeigh might have been saying to himself in relation to Waco and Ruby Ridge, psyching himself up to act as some kind of avenging angel.
It's dangerous playing with that kind of thinking. We all think those thoughts sometimes. We're probably all capable of putting them into practice too, given -particular circumstances. I don't actually think there's anything particularly unusual about Timothy McVeigh. I do think that his public execution makes it more likely rather than less likely that other people will do the same kind of thing as he did.
Thank God the people of Ireland have now collectively agreed to put judicial killing behind them for ever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Justa Picker Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:18 PM McGrath, I respect your point of view and agree that under the "right" circumstances we are all capable of just about anything. But I happen to believe in the death penalty, and, that the punishment should fit the crime, especially if it were one of my children or relatives that died because of McVeigh. Killing him by lethal injection is far too humane for him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:20 PM If the people of Ireland are prepared to outlaw the death penalty, does that mean that those who have killed in Ireland out of a political motive should be denied political status, and therefore, for example, should be extraditable from the USA to the UK to stand trial for murder? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Sorcha Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:24 PM I can't imagine actually wanting to watch someone die...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Ebbie Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:31 PM Timothy McVeigh will die for the cause and in the manner that he wanted. Can anyone here say they don't believe that 'out there' there are people who will forever hold up McVeigh as an example of one who bravely died for the 'cause', a martyr to his beliefs? His death will not mean the end of his legacy. If he spent the rest of his life in a cell, alone and forgotten- ah, now there is inglorious punishment. I would be wholeheartedly for capital punishment if putting someone to death brought back those he/she killed. Until that miracle is achieved, I am against the death penalty. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: katlaughing Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:39 PM I can't either, Sorcha. I was appalled to hear the families of McV's victims can, if they choose, watch on his execution on closed circuit tv. My whole lack of feeling regarding McV, is puzzling. I know, as CET has mentioned, that too many innocent people end up on death row. I have a woman friend who was on death row in Maryland after being wrongly accused of murder. Through a campaign, we finally got the then governor to commute it to life. Last I knew she was trying to get transferred closer to her tribe in Florida. Sadly, she quit writing a few years ago, so I have no idea what happened to her. I have saved all of her letters as they were very beautifully written and contained a lot of AmerIndian spirituality which meant a lot to me. Wherever she is, I give thanks that she is well and perhaps finally free. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST,willie-o Date: 10 Jun 01 - 03:48 PM Richard: your question is irrelevant as phrased. The Republic of Ireland is not part of the UK, a status they obtained at the cost of many lives taken on both sides. But what are you talking about anyway--since when does the US grant any such status to people who have committed acts of violence in Ireland? willie-o |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 10 Jun 01 - 04:51 PM McVeigh had plenty of opportunity to name others, if there were any. He is going to get exactly what he deserves and I, for one, will be glad when it's all over so that the victim's families can get on with their lives. Everyone else too. I can't imagine what the cable news shows are going to find to talk about when TM is gone. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: toadfrog Date: 10 Jun 01 - 05:34 PM CET and McGrath are right, and I won't repeat their arguments. The death penalty would be justified if we did not have jails that would hold people. But we do, and it isn't. McVeigh surely believes in the death penalty, which will make him famous, especially if it gets broadcast. I don't particularly care to give him that satisfaction. But even if he hated and feared the death penalty, the answer is the same. We have laws to protect ourselves, not to get even. Why is it that Europeans can see this, while we can't? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 10 Jun 01 - 09:13 PM "Why is it that Europeans can see this, while we can't?" Evidently, toadfrog, because they view the capital punishment issue differently than the majority of the folks in the U. S. do. That's the only reason I can think of. Recent polls in the U. S. continue to support the majority view. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Brían Date: 10 Jun 01 - 09:29 PM Doug,we find the majority is often wrong. Your argument reveals one of the reasons for maintaining the death penalty in the U.S., that it is politically advantageous, rather than it it is for the common good. I have yet to see any evidence that the death penalty makes us any safer, only that it drives a wedge between rich and poor, black and white. The rich can afford justice, the poor cannot. I for one will celebrate tomorrow by turning thr t.v. off. Brían |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jun 01 - 09:32 PM I'd like to think that was true Doug, but I'm not too sure. I've a nasty suspicion that it might have more to do with the decision-making process in most European countries being less responsive to populist preferences.
Which is why I started this thread, because the Irish referendum is the first evidence that that nasty suspicion may not actually be justified. Maybe we've moved to a stage where opposition to judicial killing is becoming normative.
Whether a similar referendum would get the same result in other countries is still questionable. It was probably significant in this case that the Catholic Church in Ireland was urging people to vote against capital punishment,in keeping with a general pro-life commitment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Peg Date: 10 Jun 01 - 10:12 PM I understand McVeigh claimed to have committed this horrible crime. Certainly he deserves punishment. But I am not now nor could I ever be in favor of state-sanctioned execution. Damien Echols sits on Death Row in Arkansas and a good many people believe he is innocent of the crimes he was convicted of. What a shame if he, an inocent young man, were to die merely because the state called that a fitting punishment for him, even though there is always a possibility that he was found guilty erroneously... www.wm3.org Peg
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Crazy Eddie Date: 11 Jun 01 - 01:34 AM I read a Science Fiction book, where they had perfected cryogenics (long term deep-freeze-sleep). Instead of execution, convicted murderers were cryogenically stored for 200 years. If evidence showed up which cleared them, they'd be warmed up & awakened. If, after 200 years, a review concluded they were definately guilty, they were "terminated" (without waking up). When we have such a system, I will reconsider my opinion of the death penalty. Until then, while there is any possibility thae an innocent person might one day be executed, I cannot support it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:15 AM Well, Peg, evidently a jury of his peers found him guilty. Obviously, they could be wrong, but until otherwise proven wrong, I would assume that their judgement will stand. I'm not at all familiar with the case so I would not comment either way. McGrath, I did not intend to imply that those in the U. S. who create the laws follow implicetly the rule of the majority. Often they do not. However, any politician in the U. S. who does not pay heed to the polls on a critical subject, had better have a alternative profession to fall back on. Great Britian deals with terriorists like Timothy McVey in their own way, I suppose, however I cannot recall a similar act that took as many lives, occuring there in recent history. Am I wrong? If it did, what would you feel, McGrath, would be the appropriate punishment? What punishment, do you feel the majority of Brits would favor? DougR DougR
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST,Felipa Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:54 AM It's not at all unknown for people to admit to crimes which they didn't commit! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jun 01 - 06:05 AM Nearest equivalent would have been some of the IRA bombings, like the Birmingham one (leaving aside bombings in the German war which killed far greater numbers). Most people in Britain would very likely have preferred to see the people found guilty hanged for it. Of course it later turned out that they were not in fact guilty.
The possibility of killing someone who is in fact innocent is one reason for being against judicial killing, but only one reason. Being locked up for years for a crime you didn't commit is such a terrible thing to happen it might even be felt as worse than being killed. Having a situation in which innocent people are not found guilty is obviously what really matters.
But even if it were impossible for those kind of things to happen, I believe that the damage done to society by having judicial killing is so great that it can never be justified. I think it probably actually increases the murder rate, and I have never seen any research that indicates the reverse. And even aside from that, I think it damages children growing up in a society that does that kind of thing.
That's why I rejoice in the evidence from this referendum in Ireland that in at least one country it now seems that this is a view shared by most people. (And a country which in many ways is fairly "conservative".) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST Date: 11 Jun 01 - 06:31 AM Interesting views in the thread. By the time some people read this, McVeigh will have gone to what afterlife awaits him. I understand his last words will be the poem "Echoes" by William Ernest Henley. I don't suppose Henley ever figured that his words would get used in such a situation. The words of Senneca the Younger would seem to have some relevance as well. "Death is a punishment for some, to some a gift and to many a favour." Also it is worthy of note that when Ireland votes to ban the introduction of the death penalty, the "Land of the Free" is opening the floodgates. Just a thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Gervase Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:08 AM Kevin, yet again I find myself agreeing totally with what you say. Good man! Digressing somewhat, maybe it's appropriate that McVeigh should choose Invictus as his valediction. Rather like that old standby of the pissed executive in the karaoke bar,My Way, it seems so often to be used to justify self-obsession and arrogance.
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Gervase Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:59 AM ...and so it seems that he went quietly, uncomplaining and with his eyes open. Unlike the system that killed him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Peg Date: 11 Jun 01 - 10:12 AM Doug R wrote (in response to my comment about Damien Echols): "Well, Peg, evidently a jury of his peers found him guilty." --uh huh. And a jury of twelve found O.J. Simpson innocent. "Obviously, they could be wrong, but until otherwise proven wrong, I would assume that their judgement will stand." --the case is under appeal. "I'm not at all familiar with the case so I would not comment either way." --except to comment that since a jury of twelve found him guilty that is sufficient to execute him. If you really are so cavalier about the death penalty, maybe you SHOULD look into what happens when the wheels of justice don't turn as they should, and innocent people end up in prison. THIS HAPPENS EVERY DAY. And some of them end up on Death Row. And some of them are executed. Innocent men, murdered by the state. www.wm3.org
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Richard Bridge Date: 11 Jun 01 - 01:05 PM Willie-O You will find that inObu and I debated for some time on another thread some years ago about the political status for the purposes of American law of those from the Republic of Ireland who had killed in Northern Ireland, and whether they were extraditable. If I paraphrase him correctly, US law found them to have that status and so that they were not extraditable. Now should that be so if the legal system of their place of origin has found all killing (including legal judicial and by necessary implcation other political) to be unlawful? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 11 Jun 01 - 01:30 PM Peg, I do not intend to imply that I take a Cavalier attitude toward execution. I do not. The case in question that is under appeal;that's not unusual at all. I assume that in any capital crime case where the accused is found guilty, there will be numerous appeals. What about Timothy McVeigh, Peg? He was clearly guilty. He admitted it, and wrote about it in a book. He referred to the children killed as "peripheral damage," yet you would not have executed him. So it seems to me your position against execution is not based solely on the fact that the accused might not be guilty. You just do not agree with the majority in the U. S. that execution should be the penality one pays for taking another person's life. And yes, the fact that a jury of peers found him/her guilty is sufficient for me. That is our judicial system at work. It's not perfect, but name a better one. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Chicken Charlie Date: 11 Jun 01 - 01:56 PM Me, I take more of a Roundhead attitude. Those who want to join this franchise must be willing to swear to the following articles: Comparing Evans with McV. is apples & oranges. The guilt of one was not proven; the guilt of the other was. "Make the burden of proof more rigorous" is not the same solution as "Never execute anybody." Putting terrorists in jail only invites other terrorists to kidnap hostages to hold in exchange for the folks in prison. Executing terrorists may not deter the remaining ones, but it gives them less leverage. Let's be careful with the implication that McV. acted as he did because he was a vet. I have it on good authority that there are millions of veterans around the world who still have a working knowledge of the niceties of right and wrong. The piece of claptrap most outstanding in my mind at this point is the claim I heard on TV over the weekend that the execution of T.M. encourages violence. The execution of an individual who killed 168 people in cold blood encourages violence?? CC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: mousethief Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:05 PM Golly, you mean I was more liberal than Kat? I deplore the death penalty in general, and in particular the sloppy and uneven way it's applied in this country. At no time did I wish Tim McVeigh dead. I think for the safety of our society he needs to be locked up permanently, and the key melted down and recycled. But killing him serves no purpose except base and ignoble ones, IMHO. Cry for your children, America. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST Date: 11 Jun 01 - 02:12 PM I don't agree with capital punishment. In Timothy McVeigh's case, he wanted to be executed because he did not want to spend the rest of his life in prison. They gave him exactly what he wanted-release. He should have been forced to spend every day in hard labor and every night listening to the tears and screams and chaos he created. Letting him spend the rest of his life wishing he were dead until he felt sorrow and remorse for what he'd done. That would have been a fit punishment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Don Firth Date: 11 Jun 01 - 03:05 PM Without getting into matters of mercy killing, which is another question entirely, I can think of only one situation in which the taking of a human life can be justified. If someone initiates violence against one or more other people, one can and should take whatever steps are necessary — commensurate in force with the situation — to prevent that act of violence from continuing. This may require physically restraining the initiator; or if it's the only way, it may require shooting the initiator down like a mad dog. The point is that one person is trying to do physical harm to another, and one is justified in taking whatever means necessary to prevent it. Taking a human life is wrong. The fact that it is sanctioned by a governmental body does not change that. The fact that juries do make mistakes and innocent people have been executed is more than enough reason to abolish the death penalty. What to do with creatures like Timothy McVeigh? If there were any way of knowing before the act that he intended to do what he did, one would be justified in stopping him by whatever means, even if it required killing him to do so. But afterward? I can't help remembering what the father of one of the victims said: "One hundred and sixty-eight people are dead. What will it accomplish to make it one hundred and sixty-nine? It won't bring Julie back." On that morning in 1995, Timothy McVeigh resigned from the human species. He is not fit to live among humans ever again, and steps should be taken to see that he never has the chance. I would have preferred to see him spent the rest of his life in a cell, in solitary confinement. Feed him, let him exercise, and generally take care of his health needs. But no visitors, no television, no books, no pen and paper to write with, no music — and, other than his guards and a doctor whenever one might be necessary — no human contact. Nothing. Nothing but time to think. He preferred to die rather than live the rest of his life in a cell, and he has gone out with a huge burst of publicity. I can't help but feel that somehow he has won again! That saddens me. This execution was not justice. It was vengeance. Understandable, but vengeance nevertheless. And that reflects on the kind of society we have allowed. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: SDShad Date: 11 Jun 01 - 03:18 PM Felipa hits right on the head the most compelling reason that I opposed the execution of McVeigh: "There are unanswered questions which McVeigh might answer if he lived long enough. Whatever he knows dies with him." And it's not just that there are unanswered questions that troubles me; it's that some of those questions are so big and disturbing and relate to the possible (I'd say "likely") existence of a much wider conspiracy that brought about the bombing. The thirst for vengeance against Tim McVeigh has made it much less likely that anyone from whatever extremist "patriot" cell McVeigh was working with (or for) will ever be brought to justice. For reference on these questions, see:
Independent Killing will hinder the search for McVeigh's helpers, from today's Independent Chris |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jun 01 - 05:24 PM "The piece of claptrap most outstanding in my mind at this point is the claim I heard on TV over the weekend that the execution of T.M. encourages violence. The execution of an individual who killed 168 people in cold blood encourages violence??"
It may sound ridiculous, and clear against common sense. But it seems pretty clear in general that places where capital punishment continues to be the rule are in fact more violent, and that places where it has been abolished tend to be less so. Commonsense isn't always right.
Timothy McVeigh was a strong believer in vengeance being justified, that was why he blew up that building and killed all those people. His thinking wasn't really so far out of line with his compadres was it?
Admittedly in this case there is a rather drastic disagreement about what might constitute an appropriate target, and what an appropriate thing that needed avenging; but the essential point - that vengeance is justified, and that if innocent people get wasted in the process, that's a shame, but it's "collateral damage" - well, isn't that pretty standard politico-military thinking? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST,Claymore Date: 11 Jun 01 - 05:57 PM As one who has been both an Investigator and a Hostage Negotiator in law enforcement and worked counter insurgency in the Marine Corps, IMHO the life-saving powers of an active death penalty are legion, yet never acknowledged by those who decry its use. Chicken Charlie got one of the reasons right earlier; sending their political prisoners to hell on the first rope or needle available, does two things; it reduces the hostage taking for exchange purposes, and gets the message through that hostage taking will bring death itself. In addition, I've always loved the moment when I've looked a defense lawyer in face, and told him that the "Commonwealth is going capital." In Virginia, the jury determines the sentence, and they don't like hearing about rapes, hostages or mistakes during robberies or break-ins. The defense knows this, and many times will plead his client in order to avoid the death penalty, which saves far more money than any imprisonment which may result. In cases with multiple suspects, the only "Rush to Judgement" I've seen, is the pileup at the cell door when the case "goes Capital" and everyone want to be "Queen for a Day". Then it's "Rastus Mopery, come'on down..." During hostage takings, knowing that you have three viable alternatives to work with, gives you room to manuever; he can give up and take his punishment, we can smoke him, or he will get the death penalty if anything happens to the hostages. And thanks to Virginia's steady progress in "taking out the trash," these people believe it. And when we say to the world that terrorists will be chased down, tried, convicted, and executed, be they redneck or raghead, the world believes it, (even if they disagree). And when the next bombing suspects have an FBI agent slip into their cell and say, "Remember McVeigh?" the words will tumble from the mouth of one of them. To say it has "no effect" is a stupid lie told by children whose limited lives have never faced true evil. Between Nam, police work, and Israel during the Gulf War, I've seen many people die, and only the children affect me any more. But the ones I actually enjoyed seeing die were the evil ones, the NVA who drove local villagers through our mine fields, the hostage taker we smoked while he was raping his hostage prior to "giving up," and a Rican who disembowelled his wife in front of their three children, and was later trapped in a wreck that a carelessly placed road flare set on fire... The arrogant religious will tell you that the Bible says, "Vengence is mine', sayeth the Lord" but would it be the first time that an imperfect man has been an instrument of the Lord? And if the Lord allowed the first crimminal act to happen, did he not allow the second? And though some people give foolish credence to the saying that "Two Wrongs don't make a Right," (says who?) it definitely makes things EVEN for those who believe it will help them get over their loss. As for the possibility that some "Not Guilty" person, (which, like OJ Simson, is a whole lot different than "Innocent") might get the ultimate penalty, merely for being in the Wrong place at the Right time, it bothers me not a wit. Most of the cases I investigated, were about thousands of people like that. You're far more liable to be killed by a mugger than be executed. Life is an IQ test, and generally the stupid ones die first (and in the wild, they get eaten). And for the record, I know of no case of a convict executed in Virginia being remotely innocent. People claim that blacks are discriminated against, but the truth is, that if the penalty was applied perfectly equally throughout America, a higher rate of blacks would go under the needle than do now. You have no idea of the black crime rate in the US, and most of the states with high black populations have no death penalty or have never used one that exists. Thus their statistics are withheld from the database. We have the diddybop "studies" which are presented with ritualistic press conferences condemning "racisim" which, when seen in the light of day, are statistical garbage, and destroyed by proper data, and when the rebutting reports are finally presented for peer review, they get no press at all. You don't look at the racial percentage of the population to compare rates, you look at the rate of Capital crime committed by the races, and as the study that was just released by the Justice Department (started several years ago under Clinton, and then withheld during the Gore campaign) stated last week, there is NO instance of the death penalty being used in a racially discriminatory manner, a finding consistant with over thirty years of the same information, presented during the many studies filed with the Supreme Court. All of these folks have a chance at a lie detector test whose results can only be used to clear them, and any incriminating results cannot be introduced against them. Yet there is no line up at the polygraph... Is it working? I believe it is. I've seen convicts rat out their brother to avoid it. I've seen hostage takers with all else lost, give up because they wanted to live. And if the Irish had swung off IRA and Ulster Defensemen upon proper evidence, do you think that many of them would still be around to muck up the peace? And I'm not alone, why do you think those who have seen the worst most often, would want to impose it the most often? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jun 01 - 06:10 PM I think that last post demonstrates what I've been talking about... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Don Firth Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:19 PM An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. We could all wind up blind and toothless. I wonder how much less violence there would be in the world if people and factions abandoned the idea that they have to "get even." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Chicken Charlie Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:33 PM MacGrath--There may be links, but are you sure which is cause and which is effect? My other afterthought is, how can we say executions have no deterrent effect when we have no way to clone the world and test it both ways? The only comparisons we can make now is between different countries/cultures, one "with," and the other "without." Comparing, say, Ireland with the US would be fuzzy, I think, because of the very many historical, cultural, religious and every other type of differences. I don't see how we ever get a "controlled" experiment in the scientific sense. Maybe there would be even more terrorists if we didn't execute some of them. CC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST,Claymore Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:51 PM Don, are you saying that if we constitutionally took a life for a life unlawfully taken, we'd all end up dead? And the average time from conviction to execution is about nine years. I hardly call that hot blooded vengence... The total number of executions done last year in the US (some 89), didn't equal New Yorks homicide rate for ONE MONTH. I know that my statements above may appear brutal to many who read them, but if you want a bright uncomplicated life, stick to folk music. And to those who see life through that splendid prizm, God bless you for the colors you cast on the wall, but for your sake, please don't go out after dark...
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jun 01 - 07:55 PM As you say Charlie, sorting out cause and effect is tricky. The point I'm making is not that it's proved that the death penalty ups the murder rate, but rather that the common sense assumption that it keeps it down isn't necessarily too reliable. People committing murder aren't necessarily too bound by the rules of common sense, even in countries where murder is relatively common.
Bottom line for me is that I've lived in a country with the death penalty, and with executions every now and again, and one which has abolished it, and I know which I prefer. It's the same country, England. And if I felt that my views on that were shared by a sizable majority of the people living here, I'd prefer it even more.
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:02 PM Don: It was wrong to execute McVeigh, a known killer, but one would be justified killing someone who is about to kill? Is that what you're saying? McGrath: Columnist, Johah Goldberg of Tribune Media Services wrote in a column today in the Arizona Republic the following: "In Britain, home of Amnesty International, two-thirds to three-quarters of the public wants to reinstate the death penalty. In Italy, Europe's anti-capital-punishment trail-blazer, half the voters want the death penalty returned." He was quoting Joshua Micah Marshall, a liberal writing in "New Republic." Marshall is also quoted as saying that, "public opinion surveys throughout Europe AND Canada consistently show that the public in the allegedly "more enlightened" countries favor the death penalty almost as much as we barbaric Americans do." The emphasis on the "and" is mine, not part of the column. I just wanted to point out that you are carrying the torch for the minority, not majority of the population in your country. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Peg Date: 11 Jun 01 - 09:39 PM Claymore: you are scary.
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: GUEST Date: 11 Jun 01 - 10:22 PM No Peg. He's not scary. He's absolutely right. He just doesn't mince words. In order to live in your idylic, bleeding heart liberal world, and enjoy the freedoms you have and take completely for granted, there are people who's job it is to safeguard your security, and to do those dirty little jobs that no one wants to admit must be done. He speaks the REAL truth of how and why it is, and his statistics are accurate. With the CIA, the NSA, the Black Ops, etc. operating in the background (and perhaps circumventing a little democracy here and there) it keeps a lid on things, and allows the freedom to whine bitch and complain, without getting your beak wet. A truly democratic society would disolve into utter anarchy and chaos without these "safeguards". Shit happens. Someone must be empowered to make the decisions to minimize it from recurring. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Lepus Rex Date: 11 Jun 01 - 10:43 PM Well, I can't add anything new. But I'm opposed to the death penalty, and the sickos who've got a hard-on for executions are flawed, dangerously violent people. The kind of people who participate in lynchings, witch hunts, genocide, etc. In my opinion. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Lepus Rex Date: 11 Jun 01 - 10:50 PM Ah, and that "Guest" that posted between me and Peg was NOT "Claymore." It was a DIFFERENT guest who admires "Claymore" and his/her wisdom. COMPLETELY different person, I'm sure of it. Yup. NOT "Claymore" trying to make it appear that there are more mentally handicapped sociopaths in the thread than there already are. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: katlaughing Date: 11 Jun 01 - 10:54 PM Claymore may feel righteous and full of knowledge, but it does his arguments no good to use racial slurs throughout his rhetoric. Sounds to me as though he needs to retire before his loathing and prejudice get the better of him. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:41 PM Lepus Rex: you have a right to your opinion, of course, but your designation of those who (as you say) "have a hard on" for executions are flawed, dangerous people is a bit strong, don't you think? I don't know how you define a "hard on" in this context, but the majority of your fellow citizens favor the death penalty. That's a lot of people you're including in the "flawed" classification. If I believed that, I'd be a bit nervous myself. I suspect there is a great deal of truth in what Guest has to say myself. I agree with kat, though, that Claymore could just as easily make his points without some of the language. Hey, free country though. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Justa Picker Date: 11 Jun 01 - 11:55 PM I'm reminded of a scene in the movie "The Dead Zone" (Stephen King) which starred Christopher Walken, and there was a part where his doctor says "if you could go back in time and had the chance to kill Hitler (before the Holocaust began) would you?" The doctor said he would. I would too. But I get the feeling reading some of the comments in this thread, that others would be inclined to say "of course not. That would be murder." There's no rationalizing with a premeditated murderer and worrying about THEIR rights. They gave up that option as well as their humanity when they killed innocent people. They don't play by the same set of rules as a "civilized" society. To deal with them, you have to deal with them on a level they understand, and 2 up them, in the process. I'm inclined to agree with the main points of Claymore's arguments (racial slurs aside) and the follow-up Guest's comments. Without those willing to draw that line in the sand, the rest of us are helpless to the evil that awaits us and all the rational, civlized "compassion" in addressing it is not going to make it go away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Peg Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:07 AM A "hard on" (last time I checked, anyway) is an erection. Lepus Rex: thanks. :) GUEST: those words you so casually throw around are actually spelled "idyllic" "whose" and "dissolve." Doug: do you honestly place so much faith in those silly polls and opinion surveys that tell us what everyone in America thinks? That's a shame.
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:18 AM Intersting thread,personally I agree with most of what Guest Claymore said,I feel we need real punishment for crimes comitted,yes punishment,that is what justice is supposed to be about.Recently in my neighbourhood there has been a spate of horrific muggings of eldery people for a few pounds,on the rare occasions the police catch the shits responsible for these crimes they receive a ridiculously small sentence.Their defence lawyers,social workers etc will say some crap like "he didnt mean it hes on drugs".The police say most of the crime in Hull is committed to fund a drugs habbit,if thats the case why dont they just legalise the bloody drugs and let the rest of us live in peace? It has got to the stage now where old people are frightened to leave their homes,surely this cant be right!sorry for waffling on but its something I feel strongly about.john(in hull) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Peg Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:31 AM John, that is very sad that your neighbors have to live in fear in that way.
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:43 AM Well, Peg, you turn up some poll numbers that support your position and I'll certainly take a look at them. Nothing wrong with being in the minority, you know. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Ebbie Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:47 AM Justa Picker, part of the problem, imo, is the people who are so SURE they are right. I too would like to say, Of course, Hitler should've been killed in order to stop him. However, if I let myself kill someone in order to stop him or her, the time will come when I kill ONLY because it is my belief that that person will someday do something horrendous. And frankly, I'm not right often enough to take that much responsibility upon myself. That said, when an intruding person is killed in the act by a panicked householder, I think that's the risk the intruder took. Panic does not foster clear thinking. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Peg Date: 12 Jun 01 - 10:27 AM Doug; my point was, those polls mean NOTHING. (Which is why I referred to them as silly). For you to say I should find some poll figures to support my position means you are either being sarcastic, or are far more dense than I would have guessed. You seem to be saying that, because I am in the minority (according to these silly polls), I therfore must demonize these polls instead of accepting my minority status. It doesn't matter to me if I am in a majority or minority. I have the courage of my convictions either way. You, who seem to need to rely on having some silly poll bolster your opinion, sadly, do not. I think the death penalty is wrong. A lot of people feel the way I do; a lot of them do not. But I would rather actually talk to someone about their beliefs and hear their qualifications or justifications, than just dumbly accept the fact that they answered "yes" or "no" on some goofy poll... Those silly polls have seriously eroded democracy and political activism in this country. Not to mention encouraging people to be stupid. Peg
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:36 PM Thank you Peg, for your comments. I was not being sarcastic when I made that statement. I do not base my personal opinion on polls, I assure you. I favor capital punishment; you do not. That's your right, and I do not think less of you for it. I regret that you felt it necessary to revert to the tone in your message, but that, too, is your right. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Fiolar Date: 12 Jun 01 - 12:44 PM Killing Hitler would have accomplished very little. There were enough of fanatics in the Nazi party to carry on the work he started. Every knows that at the end of the war there were no nasty Germans. It was only a few who started it all.;-)The mistake was in letting Hitler get away with things for so long with no one standing up to him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 12 Jun 01 - 01:30 PM I dont think the death penalty is wrong at all. I just know that too many innocent people have been convicted of murder to warrant it's return to the judicial system. The only time it is justified, is to protect society from dangerous offenders. Mass murderers and the violent insane are a constant threat to the guards and society in general. The problem is we seem unwilling to accept that such people do not deserve another chance to kill. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: sc Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:30 PM I have been lurking here for several weeks. I think it is time that I step out of the shadows and cast my lot with the minority here. I have always held "folkies" to a higher standard than the rest of society. And it saddens me to see that so many are espousing a position of support for this barbaric custom. How can we ever attain a world of peace, love and forgiveness when we support DEATH in any of his hiddeous manifestations? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:38 PM It's very possibly true that a referendum on capital puncishment in England would bring it back - at least that's what people tend to assume. That was why it's so worth bringing to people's attention that in Ireland at least that is not true. The rest of the planet will catch up in time, I hope.
I can understand why someone can feel forced by some kind of logic to consent to having a death penalty. An awful necessity. But what I can't understand is how anyone can ever see it as something to rejoice in and feel relish in the thought of - and yet that's we've seen demonstrated even in this thread. And if the death penalty encourages that way of thinking, I think that's maybe the strongest reason to do without it.
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: mousethief Date: 12 Jun 01 - 02:55 PM DougR: there's a big difference preventing a killing by making a killing, and avenging a killing by making a killing. In the first, one person is going to die. The question is which? The murderer, or his intended victim? In the second, the victim is already dead, and killing the murderer doesn't change that. The two examples are WORLDS apart. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 12 Jun 01 - 03:55 PM I believe that execution is, as McGrath said, "an awful necessity". I also believe in the sanctity of human life, but I think that those who commit cruel and vicious crime such as McVeigh did, abdicate the sanctity of their lives. The Death Penalty exists not merely to eliminate a foul murderer, but also as a means of retribution. No one but Timothy McVeigh is ultimately responsible for his death. When he committed his act of horror against innocents, he threw the switch that set in motion the mechanism of his death. I feel no guilt at his demise, but I will admit to some feeling of satisfaction in seeing him the architect of his own end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 12 Jun 01 - 05:11 PM So, then Alex, is it likely, given the opportunity, you would have murdered Adolph Hitler in 1936? (had you been around, knew what was coming, and had the means to accomplish it). sc: I trust this is not your first and only disappointment in life (to learn that others might have opinions different from yours). Welcome though. Since you have been lurking, you know what the community is all about, and I hope you will continue to become involved. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: sc Date: 12 Jun 01 - 06:13 PM Thanks for the welcome, Doug. My life has been filled with disappointment. In the sixties we seemed to share a vision of a world of brother and sisterhood in which all people were treated equal and violence would be ended in each of its forms. The seventies came and we lost those ideals in the rat race. Our mothers and fathers had made attempts to to achieve social justice in the election of people like FDR. We sent an union busting actor from California to the White House. Our mothers and fathers pretty much ended judicialy sanctioned homicide (indeed Charles Manson and Sirhan Sirhan are still in prison thirty something years later). And we have brought the nightmare back from the grave to haunt the world once more. I believe that there has to be a basic premise in life. And for me that foundation is love. Life comes from love. If one destroys life, has that no impact on the source? Why can we not protect society without violent retribution? Why can not those who would be a serious threat join the ranks of Manson and Sirhan rather than being exterminated? How can we teach "Thou Shalt not Kill!" when our official position is so contradictory? How many deaths will it take til we know that too damned many people have died? Love & Peace! -sc |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:27 PM And if Timothy McVeigh had done the same thing in some foreigh country, maybe on instructions from a president trying to divert attention from his domestic embarrassments, would people feel any differently about him?
And would that talk about "collateral damage" (meaning dead children) have been any less obscene if it had come from an official press spokesperson for the Pentagon?
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:36 PM McGrath: To question number one: it would depend upon which political party the president was attached to. If he/she was a republican, yes. If he/she was a democrat, probably not (no one got very excited when Clinton did this by sending missles instead of a Timothy McVey to blow up a medical factory). And the answer to number two, is no (as far as I'm concerned). sc: Except for having to mingle with a few old farts like me, you will be very happy here. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Don Firth Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:46 PM GUEST, Claymore, what I'm saying is that the concept of "an eye for an eye" has been the way the world has operated since our ancestors fell out of the trees, and it is still fully operational. Pub bombings in Ireland, the continuing turmoil in the former Yugoslavia, the Israel/Palestine thing, anyplace else you can name -- blood feuds that have been going on for hundreds, sometimes thousands of years. And in most cases, nobody remembers the incident that started it. Sometimes something as trivial as a verbal insult has led to dozens of generations of retaliation after bloody retaliation. Or a battle that was fought six-hundred years ago that is still going on. This kind of idiotic, adolescent squabbling has produced oceans of blood and in a ridiculous number of cases has become national policy. I'm just wondering how much less blood would have been and will be spilled if people stopped feeling that they had to "get even." This is strictly speculation, of course. It'll never happen. AND I'm not exactly looking at life through a "splendid prism." I'm older than dirt and I've been around the block more than once. And I'm not afraid to go out at night. And DougR, Alex is right. " there's a big difference preventing a killing by making a killing, and avenging a killing by making a killing." What I am saying is that if someone is threatening imminent violence -- not just verbally, but in the act -- do whatever is necessary to stop that someone. If some guy talks big and brandishes a knife -- not yet. If that same person rushes at me or someone else with the same knife, I would have no compunction about dropping him like a bird. Self defense. Or -- if you were to see Timothy McVeigh in the process of setting the timer on the bomb and if that were the only way of stopping the bomb from going off -- yes, pull the trigger. How would you feel if you had the power to prevent one or more people from being killed and/or grievously injured and you did nothing to prevent it? Now, I'm already in some pretty hypothetical territory, so don't ask me if I would have done in Hitler. Trite question anyway. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Jun 01 - 07:54 PM I was really directing my question to people for whom it wouldn't make any difference what the politics of the president was in a case like this, or what their own political preferences might be.
(I think that would probably include you, Doug) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:05 PM Then I would say, McGrath: No and No. Sorry for the trite question, Don. I didn't pose it to be trite. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 12 Jun 01 - 08:32 PM And if Timothy McVeigh had done the same thing in some foreigh country, maybe on instructions from a president trying to divert attention from his domestic embarrassments, would people feel any differently about him? Yes, and if cat turds were caviar we'd provide them with oer d'ouevre trays instead of litter boxes. I don't think the way to win an argument against capital punishment is to try to excuse the actions of Timothy McVeigh. What he did is detested by most people who know anything about it. What should have been done to him because of what he did is open to discussion.
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Gervase Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:07 AM Can we lay off the "eye for an eye" stuff and all that biblical mumbo-jumbo when referring to the judicial process, please? If we are to take the injunctions of the Judaeo-Christian bible to heart, then we'd still be stoning homosexuals, adulterers and men who cut their beards (still, if Ann Widdecombe gets her way, maybe we'll be doing it again soon). And, in its original context, the "eye for an eye" injunction was a warning against going over the top - in other words, keep things in proportion and don't over-react. (and yes, I know there are some who would say: "In that case, what's wrong with a life for a life?" Plenty, I say). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Gervase Date: 13 Jun 01 - 07:56 AM Bugger. Missed a backslash there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Lepus Rex Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:32 AM Well, I wouldn't try to go back in time to kill Hitler, since I already know that I'd fail. (Hitler surviving 'til 1945 and all) Aargh. You guys watch too much Star Trek, don't you? :) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 13 Jun 01 - 01:08 PM Lepus Rex: I NEVER watch Star Trek. The question has alread been branded as "trite" anyway. One could have posed the same question and substituted TM for Hitler, I suppose. Perhaps it would have been considered less "trite" and more timely. There was at least one person we know who knew what TM planned to do, and he did nothing, including informing authorities. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 01:15 PM Doug, why the insult? Can't we disagree without you insulting me? Grow up. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:12 PM "...to try to excuse the actions of Timothy McVeigh."
What did I say that was in any way trying to excuse his actions? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Lonesome EJ Date: 13 Jun 01 - 03:41 PM And if Timothy McVeigh had done the same thing in some foreigh country, maybe on instructions from a president trying to divert attention from his domestic embarrassments, would people feel any differently about him? My interpretation of your statement is that McVeigh is being villified because he did NOT do "the same thing in some foreign country on instructions from a president to divert attention from his domestic embarrassments". In other words, McVeigh's crime was no different than what may be acceptable behavior on the part of the President, so why should he pay the ultimate price. Am I missing your point?
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:03 PM Alex: I have no earthly idea what you took as an insult. Whatever it was, it wasn't intended to be. I would apologize if I knew what the hell you're talking about. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: mousethief Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:12 PM I apologize, DougR. On re-reading I see you were insulting "sc" and not me. Anyway, yes, knowing what I know now, if i had the chance, I would have killed Hitler. Or Lenin. Or Stalin. Or Pol Pot. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 13 Jun 01 - 05:33 PM No problem Alex. The comment to sc was intended as humor, not as an insult. Jeeze! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Jun 01 - 09:30 PM If you've got this time machine, why so negative? Stop the assassination of the Archduke in August 1914, and there wouldn't have been a First World War at that time, and Hitler would just have been a painter with a few barmy ideas. And probably most of us wouldn't have existed either, since our parents would probably have never met each other in a different timeline.
It's a fun game, but totally meaningless, unless you are proposing to go round murdering people just on the suspicion that sometime in the future they might turn out to be terrible people. Would any of us be safe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: DougR Date: 13 Jun 01 - 09:41 PM Well, McGrath, one would obviously have to be blessed with the ability to see events far into the future before any of the scenarios would work anyway. I was half kidding when I posed the question, but it interested me that folks who are so diametrically opposed to the death penalty could justify killing under certain other circumstances. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Don Firth Date: 14 Jun 01 - 03:02 PM It depends on the circumstances. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: mousethief Date: 14 Jun 01 - 04:16 PM McG, there is every reason to think that if Archduke Ferdinand hadn't been assassinated, Austria would have found some other reason to invade Russia. They were amassing troops along the border for many months before the assassination. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: The Walrus Date: 14 Jun 01 - 04:53 PM mousethief, Just one piece of geographic pedantry, Austria-Hungary was after Serbia, not Russia. Seriously, it has been argued that if Austria-Hungary had launched a quick punative campaign against Serbia in July 1914 and made it clear to the rest of the world that there was no intent to stay the situation might have been defused, but there were too many would-be empire buildiers (there were a lot in the upper echelons of government who did want to stay) and the whole system was too slow, by the time the ultimatum was rejected, the machine was moving and no on could see how to apply the brakes. By the way, the Austrians captured the assasin, Gavrio Princip, he died of TB in prison in 1918. Regards Walrus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: mousethief Date: 14 Jun 01 - 05:49 PM Walrus, nobody thinks they were "after" Russia. But Austria-Hungary couldn't take Serbia without fighting with Russia. Russia was a long-time ally of Serbia and wouldn't stand by while yet another slavic Balkan state was absorbed by the A-H's. A-H (and Germany) struck when they did because Russia's military preparedness was at its nadir following the Russo-Japanese war. We have letters between Berlin and Vienna to this effect. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: mousethief Date: 14 Jun 01 - 05:55 PM Interestingly, which I had never heard before (or if I had I hadn't understood the significance), the good Archduke was visiting the Balkans on the anniversary of the Serbian defeat in the Battle of Kosovo (1389). It is THE Serbian national holiday, the day they celebrate being Serbian, equivalent to the US's July 4th or Mexico's May 5. Touring Bosnia to promote Greater Austria-Hungary on that day was either a deliberate provocation, or an act of political stupidity unequalled before or since. I hate to say anybody deserves to be shot. But this guy came close. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Firecat Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:12 AM Far be it from me to condone (I think thats the right word) the death penalty, I definitely think Timothy McVeigh deserved what he got, and a damn sight more! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:26 AM I take it firecat, that you mean McVeigh deserved to die, but that it was wrong of society to execute him, since you don't condone the death penalty.
Of course since he said that he'd rather be executed than not, there might be a case for saying that he didn't have the right a state-assisted suicide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jun 01 - 07:28 AM I take it firecat, that you mean McVeigh deserved to die, but that it was wrong of society to execute him, since you don't condone the death penalty. Of course since he said that he'd rather be executed than not, there might be a case for saying that he didn't have the right to a state-assisted suicide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Go down you murderers... From: Fiolar Date: 16 Jun 01 - 06:43 AM Presumably if the First World War had never started, Lenin would never have gone back to Russia via Germany as the Germans would not have needed to distablise Russia and the Romaovs would not have been murdered and so no Stalin, no cold war and exapand as you like, it make interesting Science Fiction. All has been done before many times. |