BS: Are you ashamed to be American?

Subject: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Janet
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:15 PM

After your own election debacle, you criticise the Zimbabwians for being undemocratic.

You kill thousands of Afghanis in search of one man. Six months on, you still can't find him.

You manage to convieniently push those dead people under the carpet, whilst spending more time arguing whether you should kill a mentally distured woman of your own.

What next? I know, lets cause more misery in Iraq! Let's bomb the bastards to show that 'America is King' Good call!

I really dispair

Janet

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:20 PM

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:23 PM

Haill no, Ahm mighty proud to be a Murrican! Greatest cuntry in the woild, dontcha know?

You must be a furriner.

*BG* Michael

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:30 PM

Well, I am niether ashamed or proud. I work for change and hope you do in the nation you live in. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:30 PM

PS sorry, in which you live...

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From:
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:37 PM

No. I am very proud and also know that I am quite lucky. I think by and large we mean very well even though we don't always get it right. mg

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:43 PM

You're starting to sound like Paul McCartney, Larry! :-)

GUEST, Janet - You raise some worthwhile points there, but you picked a pretty tactless thread title to start it off with. However, I'm sure it will attract attention to the subject...one way or another.

Mah fellow Ay-Murricans...Ah would advise yew, as a Canadian brother livin' tew the North of yew, not to git all lathered up abowyt the tahtle o' this here thread. If'n y'all don't lose yer tempers, y'll danged well be a whole lot farther ahaid in the eynd than if'n y' dew.

Now Ah hev beyen somewhut critical of the ol' US of A on more'n a few occasions, mahseylf, but Ah hev never suggested thet y'all should be ashamed of whut God and destiny has made yew.

Take mah advice and stay cool. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Banjer
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:50 PM

Now Ah hev beyen somewhut critical of the ol' US of A on more'n a few occasions, mahseylf

Well spoke, there Mr Lil Hawk, living where you do and having the first hand experience that you have because of living there, gives you every right to compare to and be critical of us! **BG**>

(meaning of course that everything you guys do wrong, we can do wronger, ifn' we set our mind to it)

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Janet
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:50 PM

Little Hawk,

You say it all when you said that I "picked a pretty tactless thread title"

I think that the self satisfaction of the USA is the scariest problem in the world today.

Janet

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: John P
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:57 PM

Janet,
You sound like you think we have chosen the direction our "elected" officials are taking. It's sort of like asking a redhead if she is ashamed because another redhead cut you off in traffic once.

I agree with you about the extremely frightening direction this country is taking, but resent you blaming it on "Americans". Please blame the individuals responsible.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 07:57 PM

Well, Janet, matter of fact I would pretty much agree with that assessment. So would some of my American friends. I guess you figure on beating the bushes a little, and seeing what flies out, eh?

I basically like most Americans, I just don't like the government that stands on their backs and uses them.

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Mickey191
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:02 PM

We may make mistakes, but by and large, we are a good and generous people. What other country has spent billions to rebuild a country who attacked us one Sunday morning in 1941? We did the same for Germany and saved Europe from Hitler's domination. We've spent countless millions everytime a country has an earthquake or flood. Our citizens go the world over to aid people in trouble. Hell we even send our dogs. Dedicated scientists work for cures to help all of mankind. Dear Little Janet, what would you expect us to do after 9/11? Go blithely along our way with no retaliation, and just wait for the next onslaught? My Country & your Country(probably) are in fight to save civilization-whether you know it or not! Grow up.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:04 PM

the "USA" doesn't have any satisfaction....self or otherwise. It is ALWAYS silly to describe a nation in broad terms when one is unhappy about the behavior of a few.

NO country is perfect...the USA, however is one where serious good is done, and where most of the people want the right thing to be done.

I note 'Janet' does not say where she is from and who is doing things better...

and why is 'Janet' trolling a folk music group with broad accusations?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:12 PM

Well Janet, I agree that the smugness of the current administration is an ugly thing to behold from here: I can only imagine how bad it looks from abroad.

Now I wasn't born American, AAMOF I'm not even a citizen (they don't let me vote, so don't blame me!) But I choose to live here for a number of reasons, some involving music, some climate (weather, not political), some personal. That does not mean I support the Bushies in their blustery posturing and "evil axis" twaddle.

On the other hand, you mustn't forget that the U.S. was subject to a horrific attack which has left part of the population severely traumatized (after all, we're not used to that sort of thing). It's to be expected that people would have knee-jerk reactions.

It's (only) been six months. I hope reason will prevail in time.

Michael

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:32 PM

Also, though of american origion, totalitarian capitolism is sperading and can be found in most nations which speak english as well as our guest Janet does... Larry

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:37 PM

Trolling the waters, again?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: cyder_drinker
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:44 PM

'GUEST Janet' (note the GUEST bit, ref. countless other threads) is trolling.

Why the hell is anybody actually responding?

I, for one, hope not to see this particular thread refreshed after this post. It's off topic for the 'cat, has no music content (or BS heading) and is a waste of bandwidth.

Happy St Patrick's day, anyway.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:44 PM

Ashamed? Of course not! We are proud to be the world's greatest user and waster of all resources, natural and otherwise and we do it because we can!!! We buy SUV's and Humm-V's to drive to work because we don't give a crap if the rest of the world can afford it or not because we can....so why not? We have a particular passion for sticking our nose into other countries simply because we can! I mean who the hell is gonna' stop us? We try to put a good front on things and show that what we're doing will benefit the rest of the world and of course it will unless you are one of those who disagree with us and don't want to share what you have with us. If that's your problem, we have a solution that I guess you don't like, but it's simple......We'll kick your fuckin' ass and destroy what pathetic economy you have so the rest of the world, and mainly the US, can do it our way......the right way.....the American way!

And yeah, we've had about enough out of Iraq and all that too now that you mention it. Saddam keeps flaunting his dumbass in front of us and we've shown great restraint in not taking action so far. Now is the time to nuke the bastard and I think we might. We can easily send in an occupation force and take the oil from the Iraqis too after we decimate the rest of their country. That will solve all of our petroleum needs and do away with a pain in the ass to boot.....And what the fuck are you going to do about it?

The rest of the Middle East will fall in line after that because they ain't got the power to stop us either. If we want it, we'll take it and "Bob's your Uncle." Don't think we'll forget that the Russians still have a few weapons and if they make any sabre rattling noises we'll lob one into the Men's Room in the Kremlin.....and again, whatcha' gonna' do....call a cop??? Listen fucker, we are the cops and we do a fine job of policing the world......Does it matter we ain't caught that skinny towelhead yet? Hell no because we took his power base and we'll continue to obliterate any country who even thinks about offering the jerk asylum. We will because we can....and whatcha' gonna' do?

Feel better now Janet? Make sure you do because we can come for you too!

General Fuckoff

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: cyder_drinker
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 08:54 PM

Amen, Spaw.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,A foreigner
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 09:11 PM

Janet, if you hate the way Western culture is, why don't you go and live in a place like Afganistan or Iraq? Believe me, you wouldn't last long there!

When it comes down to it, when people are in trouble, Americans come to the rescue. Personally, I get sick of the slagging Americans take. The Europeans are happy to sit on their backsides and criticize but they'd get their arses kicked well and hard if it weren't for the Yanks breathing down the necks of enemies.

Go study history, hen.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 09:32 PM

'Spaw, thought you were gonna break into a few verses of Phil's "Cops of the World" there- one of the best lead-ins to that song I've heard in a long while!   :>)

Shame he couldn't have held on a while longer. There's plenty of work for him today!

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Mickey191
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 09:55 PM

Some countries have a policy of killing baby girls and eating dogs.We spend our time & resources getting a 39cent kitten from a well. Spaw, You're suddenly in charge- how would you deal with the aftermath of 9/11? I await with great anticipation your solutions.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 10:00 PM

Ah, Spaw, your sensitivy and restraint...it never fails to bring a tear to my eye and a warmth to my heart. LOL! :-)

But it ain't gettin' you a free course at the WSSBA. No siree. We weren't born yesterday, eh?

And if we ever see your boys comin' across the border to "rescue" Canada, don't blame me when those maple syrup canisters start comin' down around your ears! We've got Red Rose Tea in our water pistols and Resdan bombs stockpiled knee deep in our McGill porta-pottys. We've got trained suicide squads of moose and beaver waitin' fer ya in the wilderness areas, and Tim Horton's Donut catapults that'll knock yer flippin' SUV's right off the road. You've been warned, Yankee Doodle!

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,flora
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 10:28 PM

Dear oh dear.... when will people learn? If you're talking about nations, there is no 'them and us' - no Americans versus British, no Afghans versus Americans, no Russians versus Chechnens. There are people. People with widely differing points of view. Talking about 'Americans' as being ashamed is about as meaningful as saying, oh I don't know, all Americans like boiled eggs. Some Americans are 100% behind Bush, some are 100% against him, many are somewhere in the middle. The only them and us is 'the people of the world' versus 'the governments of the world' (or whatever the ruling power is). We have to learn to stop stereotyping - wars are easy if you can stereotype, and justify your actions by saying 'all Iraqis are....', 'all Germans are....', 'all Japanese are....', 'all Russians are...' (By the way - I'm not American, I deeply disagree with Bush's actions and will happily protest against against them, but I'm not so arrogant as to be sure that my point of view is the right one - it's simply the right one for me. Which is why I am glad to hear the differing points of view coming from Americans on this website. People are thinking about it, questioning it, and coming to a conclusion. Good.)

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: 53
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:19 PM

Hell yes.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: 53
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:20 PM

I meant to say Hell no. Sorry about that I think I might be drunk.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Gypsy
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:22 PM

Bless your heart, Flora. And, dear guest Janet, just how perfect are you to cast any stones?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:44 PM

So good to see people are not responding to mindless trolls...

Janet's probably Osama Bin Laden or someone else "scary"

pax yall

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: JudyR
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:49 PM

I'm extremely proud to be an American. I am not the government. I didn't even vote for this adminstration. I love our independent spirits and our history and heritage -- and our folk traditions and music! I love our little towns, and the Mom and Pop stores (which are, unfortunately, disappearing), and the back roads, and our neighborliness (and I'm not even John Wayne!) And our music -- did I say that?

Sorry, it's too late at night for me to get, tit for tat, into the whole political discussion (I've had a hard day on another forum, defending CLINTON, if you can believe that!) (Boy, his enemies sure never let up, do they? Felt like I was picking burrs off me every time I logged on!) Maybe I will tomorrow. Or maybe, as somebody said, this is a troll.

Right now, I'm watching "Crossfire," one of the programs we have where everybody is allowed to say what they think.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:51 PM

Danged... Born here, went to school here, played baseball here, made friends here, heck, my family lives here. Bought a house here so I gotta work here... well, don't gotta really but if I didn't live here, probably wouldn't have bought a house here. Nothing there to be ashamed of. And ya' can't blame the land either, 'cause it doesn't decide that 6 bucks and hour for a woman with three kids and a husband imprisoned for drugs, is a living wage... The real question is, "Are you, as a US American, ashamed of the policies of your government?" and Spawzer pretty much nuked that one a little while ago.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: X
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:01 AM

I think my people should have pushed your people's boats back in the water in 1492.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: JudyR
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:17 AM

By the way, the guest gave herself away, 'though she doesn't deign to admit where she she's from.

In what country do people say "whilst?"

Didn't study Child Ballads for nothing.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:29 AM

Well Janette, why don't you and your fellow kinsman finally own up and admit that you are GLAD 9/11 happened? Just stop the bullshit and say it out loud, " I'm Fucking Glad"!!! You're not fooling anybody anyway!!

Kiss my ruby red American ass!!!

Give us a call when the wolf knocks!!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: The Pooka
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 02:42 AM

Guest Janet,

1. Certainly not. Proud; and (cautiously) hopeful about the future.

2. But perhaps you should, as you said at the outset, "despair". Well no, wait: never despair. But be very concerned.

Not about America, though. Rather about your own condition. Anyone whose grasp of objective reality is as tenuous (to put it gently) as your first cast indicates---and whose perception is such that she actually believes (emphasis added) "...that the self satisfaction of the USA is the **scariest problem in the world today"**, as your second throw proclaims---stands in need of major assistance.

Now help *is* available, G.J. There are therapies. But the first step is to admit that there really is a cognitive problem. The second is to recognize that No, it is *actually not your fault*. (Any more than, for example, the mass murder of 2,800 innocent people on September 11 was actually America's fault.) Then, you can take positive action.

You can do it. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 02:56 AM

I usually stay away from horseshit threads like this. Like the mighty Firesign Theater once said so succinctly, "just dig a big enough hole, and everyone will want to jump into it." Well, GUESTjanet did the digging and most everybody else did the jumping, except my man Pooka there. You win the Evel Kneivel Award for Hole-jumping, bro. Take a bow.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:31 AM

Guest,A foreigner writes: Janet, if you hate the way Western culture is, why don't you go and live in a place like Afganistan or Iraq? Believe me, you wouldn't last long there!

I though Janet's complaint was precisely that the US is making it difficult for anyone to live in Afganistan!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,ivan
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 07:23 AM

Perhaps we shouldn't consider ourselves proud of our nationality in respect of what our "leaders" do. I'm happy to be british but I don't think that Blair represents my views but I have to live with that. I would imagine that many Americans are in a similar position with Bush. I was in a guitar shop yesterday and they had a pedal steel guitar. I really fancied a shot at it but hadn't a clue where to start. any hints? Let's get back to music - they're are other sites to discuss politics and Mudcat shouldn't get taken over by people who should discuss their views in a more appropriate forum.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Tweed
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 08:11 AM

Guest Janet, my best friends and all my family are Americans and I'm surely not ashamed of any of 'em. You must've meant to ask if we were ashamed of the steaming piles of crap that worked their way into the US govt. lately who are toying with the idea of global nuclear war to avenge the terrorist's attacks. The only thing that Americans need to be ashamed of is that half of us didn't march on Washington and block the doors to the White House after the election, but I don't believe that it would have been logistically possible to do such a thing, so here we are. Am I sorry that slightly under half of the common people over here were fooled into voting for an oil barron's heir with no job skills? Yup!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: van lingle
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 10:19 AM

No, I'm not ashamed to be an American, Janet. For me it's just a geographical description. And I do despair that while innocents are being murdered daily in Palestine our VP is over there trying to drum up support for even more carnage to secure our precious supply of petroleum.
BTW, we are often encouraged by some to ignore "trollers" in this forum but it seems like, regardless of their motivations, they provoke some of the more interesting discussions. Just my opinion. Dave. PS Well said, Catspaw.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Big John
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:13 AM

I am Irish and have spent all my life in Ireland and am proud of it. If I had gone to America to live I would be proud to be an American. Your wisdom in establishing the United States is at last being mirrored by us Europeans building the European Community in which the countries of Europe who in the last century fought bitter wars against each other have now come together for mutual benefit. Of course America is not perfect. What country is? Nevertheless, they saved Europe from German domination in two world wars and warded off the threat of a nuclear holocost during the Cold War. (Yes, I know the Americans invented the atomic bomb and I'm glad they got there first). I believe that religious fanaticism as it exists in the Middle East constitutes a serious threat to the rest of us. The atrocities of Sept. 11 caused the crisis in Afghanistan . I'm sorry that I can't suggest a solution to the problems so I'll just wish you all Happy St. Patrick's Day and now I'm heading off to the pub. I'm doing the "gig" in the Dead Man's Inn at Lucan tonight!!!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:18 AM

Tweed has it in a nutshell.

Art

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:56 AM

I lost an uncle in NY on September 11th. I firmly believe that the ambivilance and indecisiveness of previous adminstrations emboldened the likes of Bin Laden and others. What I find frightening is the theme running through this forum that we have been cursed by the results of our last election. Whatever you may think about Mr Bush, I shudder to think what our response to 9/11 would have been with the alternative. I was so afraid on 9/11 that our response was going to be as tepid and pathetic as was our response to terrorism under Clinton, lob a couple cruise missles and wait for the results of the next poll, yeh that's leadership all right. We needed to send a frightening message that would last and I think we did. And I for one am not ashamed of it. In November when there was the whining about how we should lay-off during Ramadan I was sooo relieved we didn't get sucked into that nonsense. Here we are taking shots about the "mistreatment" of detainees in Cuba, page after page. Yet one of our soldiers is knocked out of a helicopter in Afghanistan, falls to the ground living, is captured by the Taliban fighters and shot on site. Where is the outcry for him? Was he not a prisoner?

I have a lot of feeling about being an American. I can assure you that "ashamed" is not one of them

B

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Margo
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:12 PM

Of course not!!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Willie-O
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:34 PM

Well, of course I am not one (American) to start with, and how DARE you imply otherwise?

No one should be ashamed of where they're from. What matters is where are you going?

And how can you get there without destroying innocent lives?

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: The Pooka
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:34 PM

Appreciate your kind Evel Kneivel Award there, Lonesome EJ. I also wanna thank my Pokey Mom, my Pooker Dad, & my Puckish Agent: the Axis of Evel.

Although you didn't axe, lemme just add that we big invisible rabbits *have* to get good at navigating trollholes & foxy briarpatches: they can't see us, yknow. It's all up to our own translucent whiskers & lucky 4th-dimensional feet.

While the Political Posts are often aggravating, I agree with some other members that they are by no means always unrelated to the Forum's raison d'etre (though admittedly I haven't found the chords for Guest Janet's yet). ("Still Crazy After All These Years"??)

But I'm trying to work up a Grand Unification Theory for the occasional (periodic table of the?) *Science* threads, and the Music. This is risky, chiefly due to my profound ignorance of the subjects, "whilst" (as Guest J might say) surrounded by honest-to-God experts on both. But Pukkakneivel may yet ride his bunnykawasaki right down *that* ole black hole & nae more be seen again above the event horizon. (Awright, who yelled "Second the motion"? Too many wisearses in this Mud :)

Well, a Happy St. Patrick's Day to all; and if ye should stumble into a hole, just remember the mystical celtical incantation: Erin Faugh Doon an' Go "Bragh!"

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:42 PM

If I believe our government is in the wrong and that Bush is an idiot, I can say so, loud, clear, and frequently. I couldn't do that in a lot of countries.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 01:26 PM

Well, I'm happy enough to be a Canadian....still I am frequently disgusted with the actions (or lack of action) of both my national and my provincial governments. "Shame" is not the word that comes to mind, though...I don't take on other people's shame, just my own.

I'm ashamed of sleeping in so late and procrastinating on things that should get done around here.

I'm ashamed of spending so much time on the Internet.

That about covers it for today.

I will say this though...I spent a week in Cuba with about a dozen young Canadian students (I was one of the older people who went along to help)...and by the end of it we were all deeply affected by the contrast in front of us. There we saw people who had far, far less in a material sense than we do...and they were happier, less bored, more spontaneous, livelier, more mature, more idealistic, and more motivated than the vast majority of their peers in North America. You could say "they put us to shame", to use an expression. They weren't spoiled rotten with consumer goods and video crap like we are here. Their lives were a hundred per cent realer, and they were having a lot more fun too.

Maybe some of us did feel a tad ashamed, I don't know if that's really the right word for it though.

It was breathtaking and absolutely unforgettable. If you haven't had the experience, then you just don't know. It was one of those things where "you had to be there".

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 03:19 PM

Ashamed? You speak as if each one of us somehow is responsible for the actions of our government...

Where exactly do *you* live, and has *your* government always acted in the best interests of each and every individual living on planet earth? If not, are *you* ashamed?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: toadfrog
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 03:55 PM

Let me ask you this, Janet:

Aren't you ashamed to be a TROLL?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 03:58 PM

Right on, Guest B.

DougR

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:17 PM

Seems Janet is so ashamed, she hasn't told us where SHE is from, eh? Cheers, How's St. P day going for you all, doing anything you are going to be ashamed of when the weekend is over? Drink lots of water before passing our, sisters and brothers, Slan, Larry

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Butch
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:47 PM

Let me change the way your phrased this.

While I am concerned that my nation is not the best it can be, most countries are ever the best they can be.

I am sad that we are killing the people of another country and wish it were not so and yet I am happy that many of the citizens there now see freedom of expression to a greater degree than they have been allowed in years under Taliban rule. What of the women who are now free to persue carrers, doctors who can only now heal their fellow citizens and teachers and artists who can do their jobs for the first time. Of these results, I am duly proud. I am also proud that there may be a greater freedom of religion there so that the artifacts of other cultures are no longer destroyed there. All is not yet well, and we may have made some mistakes, but we have also done some good. If you see only black and white, then I feel sorrow for you, the world musst be very disapointing place.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 07:33 PM

What a stupid-ass question. Just shows that people around here will respond to virtually any troll that wanders in. Why bother?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Banjer
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:00 PM

Let's just suppose for a minute that we are all at a song circle and a new person who has been attending for only a few sessions asks such a question. How would it be handled there? Would you respond like the GUEST just above or give a more detailed answer? Seems it is just like a song circle here in many ways.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:24 PM

So is Janet's split infinitive just a red herring, Judy? (I think InOBU/Larry missed it altogether*G*)

Janet, the Zimbabwe farce included defiance of a court ruling and rampant violence; the USA farce was of a lesser order, and fully legitimised by the judiciary. It is facile to equate the two.

If double standards are your main concern, you might instead despair that the USA has refused to recognise Mugabe's victory, whereas the same administration is nauseatingly chummy with General Musharref. who didn't even bother with the hypocrisy of an election when he seized power in Pakistan.

I should think more than a few American mudcatters were pleased if not proud that it was an American trooper who said, on being asked to sum up his Afghan tour: "Humbling is the word that comes to mind." And after a pause: "I'm not going to complain about much when I get home."

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: YOR
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:32 PM

Hell No!

What great American was it who said "BITE ME"!

Why do you not like America?, because you don't get to live here.

Troll or pond scum? Its' a toss up!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Troll
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:39 PM

As the official Mudcat troll, Let me state that I am proud to be an American. There are times when I don't like our policies, but I am never ashamed of who and what I am.

troll

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM

YOR, "to live here with the haves" is probably what you meant to say? You're not seriously arguing that life for the have-nots is anything to envy? Or maybe you're still clinging to that bullshit about the opportunities being there for all, as evidenced by that ordinary little drunk, George W, growing up to be president?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:43 PM

No, no...it was Rose DiManno who said "Bite me!" She's a well known Canadian columnist in the Toronto Star, and she was addressing the Ontario premier, Mike Harris, at the time. :-) Good old Rosie...gotta love her! Good old Mike was busy privatizing everything in sight (supposedly to save us all money...Ha!), which almost without exception has resulted in things getting a lot worse than before, when they weren't privatized. He has also devastated the towns and municipalities in Ontario by dumping the financial load on them.

As for responding to trolls...well, it can lead to some interesting discussions that the troll in question never anticipated starting sometimes. You have only fallen for a troll if you get angry, IMO.

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: richlmo
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 10:49 PM

I think I am as proud to be American as I have ever been. It seems some people can't remember back to September 11 , when we all saw that the unthinkable can happen. I'm sure that more unthinkable ,horrific events are coming in the near future. Some here in the USA and some other places in the world. Maybe where you are, Janet. Who will you look to for help when your friends and neighbors are slaughtered? Sadaam or Ossama? I didn't vote for Bush, but I am damn glad that he is the one who's there during all this.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 10:50 PM

"Bite me" was a common expression in the ship when I was in the service back in the 50's. How old is Rose Demmano?

Guest, you talk like terrorism ,Like everything that is bad, started under Clinton. In fact, it goes way back. Read up on "17 November" they have killed hundreds of people, some Americans, and they are protected by the Greek government.Every administration, including "The Actor" has done nothing! As Barney Miller used to say, :Let's keep our perspective"

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:21 AM

Dear richlmo:
Part of the problem is the number of americans who saw Sept. 11 as the unthinkable happining. Among New Yorkers who have been here and there around the world working for social change, rather than visiting hilton hotels, were not surprised. In fact, we saw this kind of thing comming for quite a while. In fact, NYC government saw this kind of thing comming and took the kind of rediculous actions that small numbers of us were offended by, going through people's handbags in office building lobbies etc, while we who saw the problems in the rest of the world called for real change in the way the US did biz around the world as real protection. Let's face it, fundimentalism here and there feeds on poverty. Even fundimental capitalism is supported by scared and poor folks. We have to stop creating conditions which cause people to long for a world without ambiguity and uncertainty. It takes a comfortable soul to be comfortable with the kind of promice of change that liberal democracy promises. That comfort is disapearing in this nation. Let's stop worrying about pride or shame and begin working for a world without hunger and fear, then we can build big buildings again.
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:26 PM

Kendall - You have the temerity to suggest that Rosie diManno would ever say anthing not totally original!?? :-)

I think she's probably around 50, that's my guess, and she's a feisty one...one of those women who's about 5 feet tall, tough as hell, and determined as a pit bull. I don't always agree with her, but she never fails to be interesting and articulate. I think she said "Bite me" to our detested premier Mike Harris mostly just to be funny and to show her utter contempt for Mikey, who has gutted Ontario during his last 2 terms in office.

In his wake, banks and big business are richer...the rich are richer...and everyone else is poorer. The provincial government has created the illusion of "fiscal responsibility" by downloading a huge share of its traditional expenses onto the towns and cities (thus robbing Peter to pay Paul)...conservative doublespeak, nothing more.

Mike Harris, of course, is among the rich, and has been since birth, so his policies appear to be extremely enlightened from his own point of view.

Canadian thread drift...

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:19 PM

"Shame on you, Osama, you baaaaad man! We'll let it go this time, but don't ever do something like that again, OK?"

Janet, is that what you would have us do? Turn the other cheek? I wonder just how much the United States of America had to do with the freedom YOU enjoy, where ever it is you come from. With a name like Janet, I'm assuming you're not from an Islamic country, unless you married a muslim. If you did, I hope he is a wise, kind, and peaceful person, as millions of his faith are, and not a hateful fanatic who refuses to respect other religions, yet demands that the world respect and embrace his own.

At least Americans have a choice.
HS

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:37 PM

Am I sometimes befuddled, bewildered, and embarrassed by the things our leaders do? Absolutely. So I vote for someone else the next time. I can do that here.

Am I ashamed to be an American? Absolutely NOT.

I think it's important to separate the People from the Government. The Government doesn't always represent all the People, and all the People don't necessarily support the Government.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:03 PM

(I haven't read the whole thread but am answering the question) - I am not embarrassed to BE american, but am often embarrassed BY americans!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: SDShad
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:42 PM

I think you nailed it square on the head there, Mrrzy. Sign me up for that list.

I'm especially embarrased by the ones who paint their doughy torsoes flourescent colors (or colours, everywhere else in the world) and display them at football [sic] games.

Doughy torso unpainted and undisplayed,

Shad

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM

HELL NO!!!

I don't have to agree with my government and the lovely thing about my nation is I can shout that from the rooftop if I desire. Ashamed to be American? I relish in it and dear guest Janice I find your attempts to malign my country and start an imflamitory post purile, childish and insulting But as I did for 17 years of military service I will defend your right to be a stupid silly little git to the death That is the pride and the stregth of America. That our men and women will do that and will bend over backwards to help those in need. Ask the Afghan women if they enjoy the Taliban regime and what they think of Americans. Good day Madam!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Joe Fogey
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:12 PM

I heard the Harrods bomb go off in London back in the 80's.

Targetted on innocent civilians, planted by the IRA, financed and backed by many Americans, Many Americans (including their government) also backed the Contra terrorists in Nicaragua. America backed Joshua Savimbi and therefore was partly responsible for long and bloody terrorism in Angola. The sad thing is it took till September 11th for the American body politic to discover how awful terrorism can be, because, lets face it, an English or Nicaraguan or Angolan life isn't really worth as much as an American one.

I like American culture and music. I like lots of Americans I've met. I just don't trust you lot to rule the world.

I'm Cornish.

Joe

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:39 PM

Hi Joe... frankly I think American music is one of our worst exports!!! Cheers, Larry (PS I wont get into the whole American IRA question, other than to say there was much more culpability on the part of the US and British gov. through NATO to create terrorism in Ireland, but that is a huge nother story... Ke navo fellow celtic cuz)

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:40 PM

To me, pride and shame are personal things and come as the result of my own volition and my own actions. And, pompous ass that I am, I apply my own principle to others.

If I make a good choice and do something fine, brilliant, and beneficial, I can feel proud of my accomplishment. If I totally screw up and cause all kinds of problems, then I have good reason to feel shame. But:—

My father's lineage is Scottish, my mother's is Swedish. Am I proud of my lineage? Kind of, in a way, but when it comes down to it, I had nothing to do with it. It was not a matter in which I had any choice, therefore, how can I claim credit for it and be "proud" of the fact? My response to those who loudly trumpet "I'm proud to be (fill in ethnicity or national origin of choice)!" is "That's very nice, but what have you done lately?" Same thing with shame. Why should I, or anyone, feel ashamed of something over which we have no control? I campaign, I write, I yell my head off, and I vote. I didn't vote for Bush and I didn't vote for a lot of the people who got elected this time. Quite apart from how one judges Bush's actions or the actions of the American government in general, why should I, or any other American be ashamed of something over which we personally have little or no control--or of the fact that we were born (through no choice or effort on our own part) in a particular area of the world?

The question itself displays the philosophical myopia of the person asking it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:49 PM

Hey, Hamshank, it is a common presumption of some Americans that a whole lot of other people around the world "owe their freedom" to the USA. This is debatable, although there are certainly some examples to support it which one can point to here and there...and there are some examples of the diametrical opposite too.

As a Canadian, I would say that I owe my freedom to:

1. My own free will and the courage to use it wisely.

2. The social and political traditions developed by the British Empire over the last few hundred years.

3. The democratic institutions which Canadians later instituted and maintained themselves under their own jurisdiction...on the foundation which the British provided us with.

4. AND...our repelling of several American invasion attempts during the years 1812 to 1814.

That pretty well sums it up.

As for World War I, World War II and all that...you helped us...and we helped you (the Canadian Navy was the 2nd largest in the world in 1945 and fought very hard in the Battle of the Atlantic. It was a mutual effort. We all defeated the Nazis and Japan together. The USA did not do it alone, though they were the biggest player. Russia was the 2nd biggest player...and sacrificed the most lives in that effort. So...do I owe my freedom to the Russians too? We all shared the burden, and nobody owes anyone anything at this point, except mutual respect and good will.

Nevertheless, I understand how you could be irritated by the title of this thread...and it may have been launched precisely to do that...irritate you. Or it may have been launched in all seriousness. Hard to say. If it was launched to irritate people, it sure is working.

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:57 PM

Joe, we won't look down on you for that. ;)

Many of the things cited that were done by the American Government are indeed deplorable. Then again, many things done by EVERY government have been deplorable. The simple fact is, folks tend to lose perspective when they get in charge and figure the REASON why they are doing something justifies them doing it. So they lie and break laws and lie about breaking laws. Those that do NOT lose perspective get accused of lying and get people digging into their past because NOBODY is really like that. In most Western countries, these actions generally come out into the light of day fairly soon after. It is the totalitarian regimes that get me worried with what they are doing...

Actions taken by individual Americans are, many times, done so out of the ignorance that springs from the view of the world they have. Just like most folks. Americans of Irish descent living in the 1920's were often times the children of famine immigrants with a HUGE complaint about the British Government of the 1840's and 50's. Their children received no new information to change that view. Does this justify them sending funds to support any of the alphabet-soup splinter groups that are lumped together as the IRA? Not in my mind.

However, many times such funds are raised by conniving, underhanded people who know that most Americans, even those who are "connected", have a hard time sorting out fact from the massive amounts of nonsense they get inundated with. Simply put, they get snookered - they are told the proceeds are for some effort or other when in reality they are going elsewhere. The crime they are committing is being trusting and sometimes being quite elderly. (Having recently needing to explain to my elderly mother that the NEXT time she gets a nice letter and flyer asking for money to help people in Northen Ireland, let one of her kids read the fine print...)

Am I ashamed to be an American? No. Do I trust ANYONE to rule the world? Not particularly. Do I have a shortlist of countries I do NOT want to rule the world? You bet.

Pete

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:23 PM

LH,

You're absolutely right. I never meant to convey that I thought we yanks were the saviors of the world. We certainly have done our best, but we haven't done it alone. I'm just bloody sick of being slammed because I happen to have been born in the USA, and am therefore, American. I'm damn sure not ashamed of it. Let me just ask again, though, what SHOULD we be doing as a country who sustained such an unthinkable act? Did all those thousands of people in the Twin Towers deserve their fate? Should we just chalk it up to "payback" for our arrogance? I'm not exactly enamoured with the government here, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in the position to have to make the decisions about what to do. All I know is, I'm glad I live in a place where I have freedom of choice.

Cheers

HS

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Victim of IRA
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:05 PM

Pete, what dear old confused person sent the shipments of weapons to the IRA. You have gave the weakest excuse why funds are raised for terrorists. Would you accept the same reasoning on the funding Al qaeda gets, some confused muslims. But hey it makes people feel good to accept your excuse, it exonerates them from the act of contributing funds to a terrorist group that murders innocent people, what a patronising head in the ground excuse. "I gave money to the cause but I did not really know what the cause was" "Oh it was used to fund the IRA" "Who are the IRA again?" Are Americans that stupid?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Victim of IRA
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:34 PM

Pete, I forgot to mention, could some of the connived funds been used towards the travel and costs of the dear old Irish boys who went to Colombia, anyway with the drugs they get they can fund their terrorism without the money of old confused Americans. BTW is FARC an organisation that is friendly to the US? Wake up smell the coffee.

How much of an uproar would there be in America if the British Gov. passed a law to allow fund raising for Al qaeda? Would you like it if we allow one of Bin Ladens associates to lead a parade in the UK, convicted terrorists are allowed to in America, how conducive is that to the teachings of the WELSH born St.Patrick. I think it is total hypocrisy and I am grateful that the NY Police and Firefighters boycotted the parade. It is such a pity that over 2800 innocent people had to die to show America what terrorists are capable off.

Still funds are being raised, give us a break in Ireland stop the funding of all Irish political/terrorist organisations and save lives or at least do not have deaths of innocent people on your conscience, St.Patrick preached peace do not let others use him to get funds for murder. A terrorist is a terrorist Irish or Arab or American.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:44 PM

What? I said raising funds for the IRA was a good idea? You don't know me at all.

go bugger yourself.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:50 PM

It's a troll, Pete. Of course it's going to deliberately misread what you wrote in order to get up your nose.

The whole premise of this thread is silly, anyway, but I guess it gives people something to talk about. I believe if I'm ashamed, it should be of something I've done, not who or what I am.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Victim of IRA
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:17 PM

Pete it was your lame ass excuse poor wee old ladies conived into giving money. Utter nonsense but from your reply I have to ask, are you one of the people that you just mentioned.

I did not say you advocate raising funds for the IRA what I said was your agruement was weak. Why not admit it and say people from your country have willingly and knowingly gave money to support the IRA.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:19 PM

Janet,1st I see you haven't been back for awhile to comment on your thread. Perhaps you are trolling along. That doesn't matter but I do wonder where you are from simply because of the fact that America's people are of all descent. Maybe it was your ancestral stock that started to fuck things up in the first place.
Another thing I would like to add, what is this cop out thing of "don't blame me, I didn't vote for him"? So does that mean you can just sit back and let the government take over if they choose? Nuke countries at free will? Invade our homes and take away our rights? If it wasn't for people constantly ralling to preserve our rights, this shit would be happening.So all I am saying is even though I voted for Nader, I still have to take some responsibility as an American to maintain my way of life.
I will now step off my soap-box and hope I didn't offend too many people out there.
Spaw you always make me laugh!
Rustic(with loaded guns in closet to fight off any nazi-commie fuck trying to take me away!)
P.S. Ashamed to be an American? No, I suppose I'm not.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:22 PM

Hear, hear, Jeri!

DougR

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Benjamin
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:31 PM

Janet, why don't you go dig up some dirt on your own country! It's there!
Before you go critizing us over the Zimbabwean situation, you might want to check out for yourself what's really going on. Try here and here!
America is far from perfect, but it's still the best country around.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Benjamin
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:38 PM

Sorry, on the second link, click on Monitoring Zanu PF violence. For more information, try searching on google for Robert Mugabe and/or Morgan Tsvangirai.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:44 PM

I might state that not all Americans niaively donate to things such as Northern Aid. Are there people in this country that have certainly just as there were those who donated to the German Bund between the world wars. We're not perfect never claimed to be at least this American didn't. Nor did we claim to save the world by ourselves. There is more than enough BS going on in the world. I do however take issue with the idea that I should be ashamed of my nationality because Guest Janice doen't agree with my governments (Read current administration's) Policies. I never bought into the idea of collective guilt and rather figured that anyone who does is a pea wit. I will be judged on my merits as a person and my actions not by those of my government. If you can not do that kindly piss up a rope. I'm going to a music thread. That is why I am here after all. Neil

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:07 PM

Benjamin, so the US tough on Mugabe. It was tough on Musharref (well slightly) until its own self-interest intervened. Musharref of course didn't bother with elections, fair or otherwise.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Victim of IRA
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:10 PM

Asking people if they are ashamed of being American serves no purpose but to insult and anger people and evades real issues and underminds the good America has done such as sending their young to fight in the Gulf War, which benefited all our countries and that is something to be proud off.

The US Government does not ask the approval of its people on every issue, GuestJanet should wait and see if Bush gets re-elected before she writes off the American people, and yes I may not like the head in the sand attitude to IRA funding, I have to admit that America does more good than harm and on that issue what is there to be ashamed off - trying to keep world peace- how can people be ashamed off that? But America has to admit to its failings in doing so that would be something to be proud off.

BTW I originally came here looking for words to a song

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:19 PM

just as there were those who donated to the German Bund

Intersting you should bring this up- in light of Dumbya's Grandaddy Prescott's activities (and proclivities).

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: The Pooka
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:22 PM

Guest, I am truly sorry that you are a victim. There have been far far too many victims. Please God, may there be no more.

Click here

EXECUTIVE ORDER 13224 - BLOCKING PROPERTY AND PROHIBITING TRANSACTIONS WITH PERSONS WHO COMMIT, THREATEN TO COMMIT, OR SUPPORT TERRORISM

(Among the many, many terrorist organizations listed, for whom US fundraising is banned and US assets blocked pursuant thereto, are: )

REAL IRA (a.k.a. 32 COUNTY SOVEREIGNTY COMMITTEE; a.k.a. 32 COUNTY SOVEREIGNTY MOVEMENT; a.k.a. IRISH REPUBLICAN PRISONERS WELFARE ASSOCIATION; a.k.a. REAL IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY; a.k.a. REAL OGLAIGH NA HEIREANN; a.k.a. RIRA)

CONTINUITY IRA (CIRA)

RED HAND DEFENDERS (RHD)

LOYALIST VOLUNTEER FORCE (LVF)

ULSTER DEFENCE ASSOCIATION (a.k.a. Ulster Freedom Fighters)

ORANGE VOLUNTEERS

This information comes to you from a political supporter of Irish republicanism who respects political supporters of Ulster unionism; and who, admitting her many failings, is still unabashedly proud to be an American.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: The Pooka
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:28 PM

But on a less-lofty note: Whoaaaa, Greg F.! Prescott Bush was U.S. Senator from my state, & in my lifetime; and I didn't know that -- if I infer correctly from your post. Not that (I'm sure you would agree) the sins of the grandfathers are necessarily to be visited upon the dumbarse grandsons; but -- will you relate? Wot's the story?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Benjamin
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:50 PM

Fionn, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. But I feel that GUEST'Janet's post undermines the seriousness of the situation that's at hand. Musharref has nothing to do with it. Also, I'm not sure that this matters, but both links I provided are to organizations outside America. You can look at them too if you'd like.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Victim of IRA
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 10:02 PM

Pooka, The organisations you listed have as much to offer the world as Al qaeda and Bin Laden has and that is only death to the innocents of the world. It saddens me that Sept11 was a precursor to the Executive Order and I am grateful that people have turned their backs on such fund raisers, but it still occurs.

We are not some wee country to patronised on St.Paddys day and get the emotions going about poor ol Ireland,having terrorists at the head of the St.Patricks parade make me wonder if American people want to see peace in Ireland.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: The Pooka
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 10:30 PM

Guest, I agree with absolutely everything you said, with the sole exception of your doubt as to whether the American people want to see peace in Ireland. We do.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 10:43 PM

Well no, actually.

CB

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:11 PM

Pooka-

No big secret about Prescott Bush's ties to Nazi Germany.

I was looking for more 'mainstream' references to post- they do exist- but I'm outa time, so these will have to do as an intro. Just do a 'Google" or "Alta-Vista" search on Prescott Bush & Hitler or Nazi & you should find more than you want to read.

Guess fascism is no stranger to the Bushites- which explains a lot of ahaat's currently going down.

You can try


HERE

HERE
or
HERE

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:42 PM

Haven't read through this thread yet, but I notice that "GUEST, Janet" didn't say where she was from. I wonder if she was ashamed to mention it.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:50 PM

By the way, I am a citizen of the United States and, though I'm ashamed of some other United States citizens, I am not ashamed to be a United States citizen. As many terrible things as have been done by the US government, I am still proud of all the good things America and Americans have done. Besides, it's an awfully pretty country (the parts of it that haven't been paved over, that is)!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: The Pooka
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:22 PM

Greg F, thank you; most interesting, indeed. I will also look up the more, as you put it, "mainstream" sources. (D'jever read the contemporaneous 1960's book entitled "A Texan Looks at Lyndon"? Really gave the lowdown on LBJ, lemme tellya.) You were also, I presume, no fan of JFK, right? Y'know, given his old man's well-known admiration of Hitler which got him Yanked (sorry) out of the Court of St. James by FDR. Of course Joe Kennedy's sons did serve (on our side)in WWII; but then so did George Haitch-Dubya Bush so that doesn't prove anything. Cover, probably. Anyway, I heard "41"'s war-hero story, shot down over the Pacific, was phony and he let his co-pilot drown to save his own ass. Hm. Bet there's plenty that's fishy about that PT-109 stuff, too.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,flora
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:46 PM

Aaaaargh! Nationalism, the curse of humanism. (Before I begin - I'm not American. Please read this through before yelling at me!) Quite a few people here have said they're not ashamed to be an American, but are ashamed of some Americans - and rightly so. There is some shockingly cruel, brutal and ignorant behaviour exhibited, by some Americans, and some behaviour that is nothing short of perfect, wonderful and kind. I also am ashamed of some Americans, and I am also hugely proud of some. Now take those sentences and add in any national group in the world (or ethnic group or whatever) and - guess what - it would still hold true!
I am ashamed on behalf of the human race for evil things that are done, but it seems meaningless to divide between humanity on account of an accident of birth. Don Firth - you are right; philosophically speaking, it makes no sense to be ashamed of one's own government. However, I have been ashamed of things the British government have done, because they have been done in my name. Because these things have been done in my name, I therefore feel a need to distance myself from them and to state that I do not agree with them, and I am grateful that I can do this.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:34 AM

No, but I don't get real jacked up about it either. The guys wrapped up in flags are usually scoundrels.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: JudyR
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:04 AM

How true.

The English woman (Guest/Janet) still hasn't been back to tell us what she is ashamed of about [i]her[/i] country, the monarachy, and various other British issues. You do get that she's English, correct? Or again -- do the Irish and Scots say "whilst?"

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:54 AM

Dear Victim of the IRA, which Irish political group has clean hands these days. Before you look to the US, well, Jack Lynch and Charlie Haughey funded the arming of the Provisional IRA, Fine Gael (an anti-Republican party which grew out of the pre-1921 loyalists) is the only party allied to Hitler which never underwent a change of structure and leadership after the war, we wont even go into the actions of supporters of the Loyalists... I always have felt that peace making begins with a mirror, not a teliscope. Cheersm'dears, Larry

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:15 AM

JudyR: No, I didn't get that. I thought perhaps she might have been from Zimbabwe. BTW, some Americans say "whilst".

GUEST,flora: Maybe I should have been more specific. Some of the Americans I'm proud of are the ones referred to as "our founding fathers" who created the system of government that we have, where each citizen is represented in some way, where each citizen has the freedom to protest openly against what the government does and where each citizen has the power to influence what the government does. We have the power to change things for the better, thanks in large part to them.

Call me overly idealistic if you want to; I live in the Philadelphia PA area – the "Cradle of Liberty" – and there are reminders, all over the place, of the vision held by the people who fought and died in the Revolutionary War AND the people who were "engineers" on the Underground Railroad. Not every "national group in the world" has that legacy of standing up to a government that denies humans their rights – and changing that government.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:32 PM

Whilst we are narrowing things down to what nationality Janet is, don't forget that any stupid git can quickly deduce what expressions are commonly used by Brits merely by reading this forum regularly...and can then parrot them convincingly in print. In this manner the aforementioned fecking git can fool people and mislead them as to his or her origin. It's dastardly, but it's quite easy.

"This bleedin' parrot is dead! E's knackered! If 'is feet weren't nailed to the perch, e'd be pushin' up dysies!!!"

"E's not dead, e's pinin'!" (and so on)

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:50 PM

I am amazed that this thread has such legs about it.

The short answer: No, I am not.

Don

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:52 PM

And why should I be? The country is beauty beyond imagination.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:18 PM

I'm with Don. No I am not. This country has allowed a guy like me to pursue the dreams and promote the values that I do. It has allowed me to become that which I am, for good or for bad. It is a work in progress, and in the relatively short time it has been in existence, it has provided much more that is good than bad. We have a long way to go, and like the teenager that we are, we make mistakes. But I am proud of the basic premises and values that we are founded on. I only hope we can keep moving forward, and make fewer mistakes as we go.

Janet..........what country do you come from?

Mick

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:38 PM

I've put some money into an IRA, did I do wrong?

CB

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: JudyR
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:11 AM

Yes, but they'd have to be as clever as you, Hawk!

How did you know that is one of my all-time favorite scenes from anything?! (I meant to say "ANYTHING!" but I hate to shout!) Ahh, the woooonderful dead parrot scene!

Sorry about that. Back to the discussion, and enjoying reading all the answers.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:25 AM

If this stupid thread says one honest thing about Americans it is simply this : we really need every body to like us. Whether we think we are good guys, or good guys led by bad guys, or well-meaning over-priveledged dopes we really want your approval.

Somehow, I don't think the citizens of the Roman Empire had that Willy Loman aspect to their make up. And you know what? That's probably a good thing for us, and for the rest of you guys, too.

I'm outta here.

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 12:26 PM

Ha! Good one, LEJ! You're quite right, the Romans didn't give a flying f**k whether anyone liked them or not, in fact I think they actually relished being universally feared and detested...as it furnished abundant proof of their prowess as conquerors.

The fact is, we are living in a genuinely more merciful and enlightened age now, with a more international consciousness than in the past.

The only problem is that we've got far more dangerous weapons than the Romans did, and the risks are a lot higher when a conflict arises.

Maybe we should start a thread now saying "Are You Ashamed To Be A Mudcatter?" Just think of the controversy that could generate... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 08:18 AM

Janet from whence doth tho part?

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 10:18 AM

I must appologise. Janet, it turns out is from Mars. A peaceful and unassuming planit, in spite of it's name and fictions like War of the Worlds... and as such, we have to wait, I believe two years for Mars to swing by in another orbit, to get Janet's responce. So, happy travels through the solar system, happy traveler, and say hello when you swing by again. Larry PS I was facinated by the reports of underground water on your planit, perhaps on your next visit you can tell us more about that!

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:10 PM

Mars is definitely an interesting place, and there are persistent rumours of various ruins there, indicating at least the former presence of an advanced civilization. I'm not speaking of the old "canals" BTW, but of more recent discoveries. This actually deserves a thread of its own...

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:31 PM

After reading this post in the "see you in Iraq" thread (wait a minute for it to load to the correct post), I have to admit that right now, I do feel a little ashamed to be an American. With friends like us, who needs enemies, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Victim of IRA
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 06:24 PM

To see what Irish Republican terrorists used financial support to do go to this link http://www.upmj.co.uk/IRAvictimsPhotos1.htm , try the rest of the site and count the dead children, divide the total into how much you gave to the IRA/SF etc to calculate the amount you contributed to their murder.

Noraid gives money to the families of terrorists, money collected from Americans,this allows the terrorist to devote time to murdering people instead of working.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 08:18 PM

Victim; I was unaware of the actual use of NorAid monies. Thank you for clarifying that. I am rather careful what I give to which means anything that has even a hint of politics (USof A or otherwise) gets no play. But again as states your posts have clarified quite a bit for me. The way I see the shame thing is I calculate what I did, nobody else's actions just mine. If I can look myself in the mirror then my actions can't have been too heinous. Of course that only works if you have a concience which probably lets most politicians out. :~) Have a great night, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Hippie Chick
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 09:05 PM

Making a difference on an individual level matters. It matters because a lot of individuals make a group, an organization, a movement. If each American, each Brit, Canadian, Irishman, Scots, each citizen of the planet gives back to the community in time or $$$ even a small portion of what it cost to bring them to adulthood, this world would be a better place. No I didn't vote for W. I work to be kind and honest with everyone who crosses my path, no matter what their views may be. I'm not perfect, I screw up a lot, but I'm here, doing my best. What about you?

HC

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Victim of IRA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:49 AM

Hippie chick, I protected my country, now in a wheelchair, is that enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:23 AM

My dear Guest VOI,
I am truely sorry for your injuries, and have called again and again for a truth and reconcilliation process. I will remind you, albeit gently, that Carol Anne Kelly, Julie Livingston, and some dozens of children murdered outright by British soldiers, will have to be spoken for in the process. The sad fact is war is an eliment of human evolution which will make us all exitinct should we not evolve beyond it. Part of the evololution process is to heal, not the loss of your mobility, but to get beyond anger and hatred.
My mothers people where murdered, 1 out of three of their kind in Europe, and if I carried that real anger, I could not function. We, by the way, are discriminated in Ireland today, by my father's people, but evolution takes the kind of healing that happens in my family. Don't keep your soul in that chair with you. embrace those who you have the most reason to hate and that chair will become a vehical to carry you into a new Ireland. Easy for me to say? Every holiday I count the empty chairs which should be filled with Roma (Gypsies) and Jews in my mother's family, who are now white ash on the fields around Auswitz.
Peace begins with a mirror, not a teliscope.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:23 AM

So..........Victim........I am sure you are just as angry at the Red Hand folks that have killed, maimed, and injured so many? And I am sure that you are just as angry at the folks throwing fire bombs at little girls going to school?

I am not sure you are anything other than a flamer. If I am wrong, then accept my apolgies, but I don't think I am. You can PM me or email me at [e-mail] to convince me that I am wrong. And if you do so, I will happily say so here, and apologize. But I served my country, and have my own scars. I know others that did as well. Never met one that wanted to use it to make the kind of point you are trying to make. It is my opinion that it is much more likely that you are just a flamer trying to make your point with this crap because you can't win you arguments with logic.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:53 AM

Hi Mick, assume the best in folks. Sending you a handshake, arm arcoss the shoulders, and welcome home, Mick, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:31 PM

Any taig will do....

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From:
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:01 PM

NO!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM

Dear PeteBoom... Yaba daba do?,br> Dear Janet... (for when Mars comes close again on its orbit and we can hear from you again...) This was sent to me, and I add it, to show there is a diversity of opinion in our nation (on THIS planit...)
----- Original Message ----- From: "mikealewitz" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 7:46 PM Subject: [laborheritage] AGITPROP NEWS: Artists After September 11

> > > Please Post and Distribute: > > > LaBOR aRT & MuRAL PRoJECT > AGITPROP NEWS: 3.20.2 > > > In this issue: > > Artists After September 11 > > By Mike Alewitz > > > > > > The following article appeared in the March 2002 issue of 'Mass Dissent,' the > newsletter of the Massachusetts chapter of the National Lawyers Guild. > > _______________________________ > > > If we were to write the truth about recent U. S. history, it might read something > like this: > > The spoiled son of the former head of the secret police, having failed at > everything else in life, runs for U. S. President. Since it appears he might not > win, his brother, the governor of a large state, throws a bunch of votes his way > by disenfranchising thousands of African- American voters. The Supreme Court, > pals of his dad, put their stamp of approval on the process. The politicians of > both political parties agree that we must put this all behind us for the good of > the country. > > The President assembles a cabinet that includes a general who got his start by > covering up the Mai Lai Massacre in Vietnam. His Attorney General is so hated in > his old Senatorial district that he actually lost his last election to a corpse. (He > is now engaged in a campaign to drape the breasts on statuary in Government > buildings.) > > When the new gang gets to Washington, they immediately reward themselves and > their rich pals with a trillion dollars in stolen tax money. They then set about the > task of the serious long-term plunder of the country. > > They were all having a swell time when two jet airliners slam into the symbol of > US financial power - World Trade Center - and the symbol of military power, the > Pentagon. Fearing attack, the President immediately took off for parts unknown > - a reprisal of his role during the Vietnam War (which would have been fine - if > done out of principal instead of cowardice.) > > The Mayor of New York actually stayed in town and showed up at the site of the > disaster, therefore he was immediately proclaimed a hero. Prior to this he was > mostly known for supporting police violence, harassing the poor and homeless > and chasing artists off the steps of the Metropolitan Museum. He proceeded to > see if he could have himself declared mayor again. > > The hijackers were apparently Arab. Though there was no declaration, war was > immediately declared on Afghanistan - although none of the hijackers were > Afghani. Evil was denounced. Howdy Doody strode the fields of Crawford, Texas > threatening to git the varmints. AFL-CIO officials promptly stepped forward to > pledge allegiance in the employer's mission for mutual slaughter of the working > class. The most advanced military machine in the world then proceeded to bomb > the most backward - spending billions of dollars to turn rubble into finer rubble. > Heroes again. > > The purpose of this was to kill a terrorist originally promoted by the U.S. But, > after a few weeks that was all forgotten. Like the anthrax scare. Like the > pipeline that the oil companies wanted to build across Afghanistan if they could > only get a stable government in place. > > Having proven their prowess on the field of battle, the politicians are now > bickering over what country should be the next target. Here at home they are > celebrating this new victory for freedom with the establishment of military > tribunals and a discussion of the benefits of torture. . . > > You get the idea. I'm only scratching the surface here. I could go on. > > * * * > > What has all this got to do with art and artists? Everything. We package and sell > the lies. When they drag out the talking heads to convince you to support US > war aims, we operate the cameras, create the graphics, design the lighting, > handle the sound, write and play the background music, pull out the safari jacket, > put on the make-up and otherwise make them appear sincere. > > When you see the same twenty Palestinians purportedly dancing in celebration of > the NY disaster, it was edited and put together by video artists all trained in our > art schools. We create the billboards and posters, the snappy army ads and the > tearful ground zero photographs. > > When the patriotic extravaganzas are performed, we are the choreographers, > dancers, prop and costume makers that appeal so effectively to your emotions. > > The entertainment industry is the second largest export industry of the US. The > first is war materials. In a sense, they both do the same thing. We make the > world safe for Enron. > > * * * > > > Art is a magical process - and you don't see it illustrated any more effectively > than when US artists transform war into play. We make the real become unreal, > and the unreal become real. We can transform the horror of war into a video > game. If you're good at it they will pay you millions of dollars - sometimes > hundreds of millions. > > Of course most artists don't make much money at all. We are cultural workers > struggling to survive. Like workers in the armaments or chemical or nuclear > industries, you block out the ultimate consequences of your labor in order to > survive. > > But while artists are forced to do the employers bidding during the eight or ten > or twelve hours, the rest of the time is ours. We can choose to use our skills to > fight for peace and justice - to reach across borders or rip the veil off the > American system of racist injustice. > > * * * > > A living art challenges it's audience to look at the world in new ways: to be > critical; to look at things from all points of view. It is an active process between > the viewer and the author. Revolutionary politics requires the same. That is one > of the reasons there has been a historical alliance of artists with the labor > movement. > > Over the past fifteen years the Labor Art & Mural Project (LaMP) has traveled > throughout the US and the world to support working-class struggles for social > and economic justice. We have created murals that are projects not of > governments but from workers to workers. Wherever we have gone we have > been welcomed warmly by those who understand that there is a difference > between the American people and the US government. Other groups have > created puppets for demonstrations, held hip-hop concerts for global justice, > conducted poetry readings and used their art in a myriad of ways. It's all part of > an organic process of building international solidarity. > > In recent years the American labor movement has begun to recognize and reach > out to immigrant workers. We have also made strides in building unity with our > fellow workers in Mexico, Central and South America. The tragic events of > September 11 provide an opportunity to extend similar solidarity to the workers > of the Middle-East. Whenever given the opportunity, these workers have jumped > at the chance to fight for their unions and extend the struggle for democratic > rights. We can and must work together in solidarity. > > As the politicians rush to create a permanent war, we artists have a special > responsibility. Never has there been such an overwhelming deluge of lies. Those > who wish to continue the bloodbath are a small minority. The great majority of > the earth's working people have demonstrated that they favor peace and > solidarity. We can use our art to give expression to that vision. We can be a > voice for those who are voiceless. We can use our songs, poems, theater and > paint to illuminate a future where human needs come before profits. Amidst the > cries for blood we must raise a voice of peace and justice. > > > ______________________________ > > Mike Alewitz is a mural painter working in the US and internationally. He is the > Artistic Director of the Labor Art & Mural Project. He teaches mural painting at > Central CT State University. > > _______________________________ > > > > MIKE ALEWITZ > LaBOR aRT & MuRAL PRoJECT > Department of Art > Central Connecticut State University

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:24 PM

Mick, do you consider you served your country? by doing so do you think you paid back a little to your country in the context of hippiechicks posting? I feel that I have done and I am proud of that,my post was not meant to be a moan but an honest answer to "What about you?".

I am not bitter,far from it as it would make the work I done worthless I make no distinction between both factions they are scum. US troops are in Afghanistan are fighting people of the same ilk and people are being asked not to support Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, what I ask is for people to stop supporting Irish terrorists on any side.

The bombs thrown at the school girls were not fire bombs,they were blast bombs and the people who threw them have nothing to offer the world except pain. Do you know people have taken to throwing golf balls and 1" nuts at school children republicans throw them at protestant children and loyalists at catholic, are people who are prepared to do that worthy of any support? Why fund this kind of terrorism?

Casualties of war is not appliable to N.I. because the majority of people do not support either side, they simply want peace. Do you think in funding either side people are doing law abiding people in N.I. any favours? All it does is prolong the agony, could the saying your killing us with kindness be applied here?

Did you go to the site I suggested(www.upmj.co.uk) it give a protestant point of view but more importantly when looked at along with a pro republican site it shows that innocent people from both sides have been killed.

Can I ask mick do you honestly understand the finite details of the "troubles in N.I." do you know of the double standards on both sides? How do you feel about the IRA being hand in hand with PLO, being supplied with arms and training from Lybia, their involvement with FARC, Fidel Castro all enemies of your country. Do you think that supporting them is patriotic?

When Sept 11 happened the emergency services were given full public support and thanks, when the emergency services in N.I. have to do their job they get stoned, beatings and verbal abuse, when your firemen save lives our firemen get beatup for their efforts when they are trying to put out fires. I had to protect a firecrew who were trying to save a building after the IRA bombed it were is the logic in that.

I am not ashamed of what I posted, what happened to me was the result of such madness that is supported and funded by some Americans, there are more people who support the IRA in America than in Ireland were is the logic in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:21 PM

Well, not to be argumentative, there are 55 milion Irish in the US and what 2.4 2.5 in Ireland today? But that isn't the point, as MI 6 defector Frank Holroid always said, the war in Ireland had nothing to do with Ireland, it was a war created by Britain for the interest of NATO. I greave comepletely for the victems on all sides, but both sides where tricked into a war against their interests by the US government and the British Government, for the benifit of guarding the Scapa flow from the Soviet fleat, why do you think the bad guys are now the loyalists, what has changed? No more USSR and no more Irish nuetrality after NATO used Irish airbases for the gulf war. Noraid didn't sponcor the war, they were like all the rest, dupes of NATO, NATO not NORAID was the sponsor of the war, it was just another cold war battle.
Lets talk peace now, I don't care if the Afghanys and the IRA are of the same ilk in your view, I am more concerned that the conditions which lead to these evils are brought about by fundimentalist capitalism.
Slan, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:22 PM

PS I want to be clear that when I say I don't care etc... not that I don't care about your point of view, I just don't think that is the issue, the wars are the side show. The real story does not make the news. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Victim of IRA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:18 PM

Larry,tricked come on, in WW2 the IRA were spying for the Germans fact,the Irish government would not allow its greatest ally America to use its ports because they thought they could bargain them for a united Ireland. The Irish government took a gamble and lost, but thank god many Irish people came to Britans help and recognised the threat that Hitler posed. OH wait your joking..... arent you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Musgrave
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:51 AM

Janet,

I agree with whoever said, "I'm neither ashamed nor proud to be an American." It's just not productive to talk about Americans feeling responsible for what their government does. What is most important -- and that "saving civilization" guy should take heed of this --is mother earth, because we belong to her, not the other way around. Ignorant, and arrogant, people like George Bush and Dick Cheney don't realize this. That's why they play on the short-sighted economic fears of the American people to justify their anti-mother nature policies. "Civilization" must take a backseat to mother nature, NOT the other way around, and this will happen the easy way, or the hard way.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 01:57 AM

InOBU, it damages your case when you make such an obviously flawed statement as But that isn't the point, as MI 6 defector Frank Holroid always said, the war in Ireland had nothing to do with Ireland, it was a war created by Britain for the interest of NATO. Come on! The fricking thing has been continuous since at least Cromwell's time! You can make some kind of argument for Britain and NATO, but I think most people in Northern Ireland, and the British as well, are heartily sick of the troubles and want them to end. You've got a full compliment of thugs and murderers on both sides who are more than willing to put innocent people in the crossfire for the good of Ireland, and playing the game of "our thugs aren't as responsible" is hard to swallow.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 07:09 AM

A couple of blaitant historical lies, not on the part of the speakers here, but their teachers. The IRA began the war with Hitler in Spain. The Blue shirts, who fought with Franco, the Irish nazis, are in fact, the Fin Gael party, who were loyalist before 21. Lonsome, it has never been the same war generation to generation. History moves on the reasons for fighting evolve. The vast majority of IRA volunteers joined the British Army and fought in British uniform through WII, one of them becoming the highest decorated British Squaddy. Have to run to do a school concert. ... I'll get back to this later. Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 09:03 AM

Continued here...

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 12:44 AM

I'm ashamed so many citizens of the U.S are ashamed to be Americans. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 10:36 PM

This was once a requirement for memorization/recitation in school government classes, mine included. I still believe it, follow it, defend it!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

"I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.

"I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies."

The American Creed

by William Tyler Page

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,Mike Strobel
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 01:27 PM

Dear Janet, Yes, I am proud to be a citizen of the United States. Please understand the majority ( if not all of us ) have no say in which country we are born and/or reared in. However, I am proud that I live in a country where I can Voice and Demonstrate my opinions and feelings without repercussion. Can they do that around the world ? We are not the perfect nation/goverment by any means and many of us voice opinions to the contrary of the general publics view, however , we have the FREEDOM to make choices, that so many cannot. " It's so easy to cast blame and so hard to build the bridge ! "

Mike Strobel

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 03:18 PM

Hello Janet. Hello. Where are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 03:21 PM

Gargoyle - Your sentiments are admirable...and they are echoed in the very similar loyalty oaths of any number of states, past and present...from the United Kingdom, to Nazi Germany, to Imperial Rome, to Napoleonic France, to ancient Athens, to the Byzantine Empire, to Sparta, to the Japanese Empire, and on and on and on...

Such statements are often (if not always) used to cover over a multitude of sins and self-serving hypocrisies, rather like a nice coat of icing on a worm-ridden, stale old cake. They are also used to stir naive young people into offering up their lives into someone else's hand and serving as his tools of war, to slaughter some other group of people with a different loyalty oath.

It all sounds so glorious though...

"I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies."

So, if you believe that...then what will you do when the high officials and commanders of your own government agencies such as the FBI, the CIA and the Joint Chiefs of Staff are in truth the direst enemies of your country and your democracy and your ancestral freedoms? What then will you do? How then will you obey your American Creed?

No one was more loyal or more courageous in battle than the elite divisions of the SS, but they were still wrong...from the point of view of the general advancement of humanity on this planet. They had very bad leadership, and they were completely misled by it. Patriots, one and all!

If they had won, the history books would now be calling them heroes...

I look sceptically on loyalty oaths. I know what they are designed to do...rob people of independent thought and judgement, and turn them into obedient killers.

A good and moral cause needs no loyalty oath to motivate people in its defense.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST,DJ
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 02:38 AM

define ashamed

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 07:27 PM

how did the concert go Larry what is the rest of your story

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 10:26 PM

Good day, Ocean Hill Brownsville public school, kids were great, did Amadou Diallo and a song I wrote about the Underground Railroad, which led to a big discussion of the underground railroad and abolitionists. Nice day. Thanks for asking. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 02:13 AM

I am right PROUD to be an American and to say the pledge of allegence.

However, it appears many "stalwarts of the MudCat" like CatsPaw56 are embarrassed and should move to Canada land of the quivering quakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 04:38 AM

As someone from the UK, I am hardly entitled to comment in this thread. However, the discussion about loyalty oaths made me immediately think of Wilfred Owen's World War I poems and in particular:

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

(Trans: It is a great and glorious thing to die for one's country)

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 09:17 AM

Canada land of Quakers? No way mate, most Quakers are in Kenya, Africa having more Quakes than any other continent. As to quivering, well, faced with jail, death, torture for not taking a Kings commission in the Army, George Fox said to an Engish judge, "Some day even you will Quake before your God..." to which the Judge asked, "and do YOU quake sir?" Hence Quakers. So, it is actualy a description of courage before the cowards who oppress the good, thanks for them complement, CHeers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 10:23 AM

GUEST was busy this morning at about 2:00 Mudcat time, reviving a number of threads that had died well earned deaths. Let it die again.