BS: The suffering Palestinians

Subject: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 20 May 03 - 09:14 AM

Is it Israel, or is it their fellow Arabs who are worst persecutors of the Palestinians? Read about it by clicking here.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:03 AM

Sigh, NYC. I most probably won't stop it by my post, but we have been through that often, for example in this thread.

Whenever the question of Palestine/Israel comes up the opinions are so strong that no amount of information can change them. The site you have linked to seems to me to portrait history in a somewhat slanted way, more by omission than by wrong statements. You can read in the old thread that a different position can be argued for.

Soon, Carol will post here what she sees as the real truth (which is in my eyes at least as slanted as the site you have been linking to).

Most of us don't post to the history of that conflict any longer for these threads attrack outright anti-semites as Dreaded Guest and, in the best case, after a short time the debate becomes a link throwing match with Carol winning by exhaustion of all remaining opponents.

Read some of the old threads and you'll see that a rational discussion of that conflict here is not possible.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:21 AM

Regretably, I agree with Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: AggieD
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:58 AM

Me too.

Does she put the same energy into condemning the likes of Mugabe who has been starving his own people for many more years than have been reported by the International Press?

These people & many more of them do not live in 'occupied territories' & would consider themselves extremely lucky to have the sort of life that Palestinians, if they lived in peace would have.

Oh dear am I being controversial again?!!

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 20 May 03 - 12:32 PM

I have decided to never again argue with CarolC. In the thread about the death of Mohammed al-Dura, which I started with a link to an article in the Atlantic Monthly, a mainstream magazine, CarolC said, "GUEST,YA, I can't help but think that you and GUEST,New York City are in reality, virulent anti-Semites who are posting this kind of trolling as a way of making Jews look bad."

What an offensive thing to say to someone. She accuses me, a Jew, of being an anti-Semite because I posted a mainstream link that questions the orthodoxy of her anti-Israel views.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 12:59 PM

So this thread is actually a "lets complain about CarolC thread". Interesting. I won't be able to play with you fine folks for a while because I'll be out of town after today.

Does she put the same energy into condemning the likes of Mugabe who has been starving his own people for many more years than have been reported by the International Press?

I put the same energy into any situations that I am aware of in which non-action makes me complicit. And the situation in Israel/Palestine makes me actively as well as passively complicit, since it's my tax dollars that pay for the attrocities being committed against the Palestinians.

When my mother was fighting for civil rights for Blacks here in the US back in the 1960s, she encountered people like those of you here on this thread. They called her names like "nigger lover" and accused her of all kinds of bias and other terrible things. Well, call me whatever is the equivalent of "nigger lover" in this situation, and accuse me of bias. I'll wear those badges proudly, while the rest of you make yourselves complicit, both actively as well as passively.

Plus, I don't continually encounter people here in this forum who are trying to justify the actions of Mugabe. I do however, encounter a lot of people who are trying to justify what the Israeli Government is doing to the Palestinians. And that's the only time I ever speak up about it here in this forum. I have never started a conversations on the subject myself. And, it may surprise some of you to know that when I have encountered Jew bashing here in this forum, I have spoken up about that, too.

I'm a human rights activist, and proud of it. And when I die, I'll die with a clean conscience, knowing that I didn't allow myself to be complicit. So go ahead and throw that mud. It won't stick anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 03 - 01:36 PM

I'm a human rights activist says CarolC.

Posting propaganda links ad nauseum on a discussion site, and making excuses for terrorist suicide bombers. does not make one a human rights activist.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: DougR
Date: 20 May 03 - 01:59 PM

I do see your point, Wolfgang, and I agree with you.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 02:10 PM

Posting propaganda links ad nauseum on a discussion site, and making excuses for terrorist suicide bombers. does not make one a human rights activist.

Well, GUEST, you don't even have the backbone to post a real name, so why should I care what you think? You're also a very bad liar.

So, DougR, you can have fun with the rest of these guys behind my back now, because I'm heading out of town, and I won't be here to defend myself.

What a bunch of brave people you are.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:01 PM

I'm wondering if Guest NYC or anyone else here really expects anyone to change their opinion about a situation like this after reading an article or a few posts on a forum ? Really ? Most folks have made up their minds already about this problem and about gun control, and abortion and all the other hot button subjects. So what's the point ? To just stir up shit ? If so - great job. It takes up a lot of space though.

Really folks - I'm interested. Whats the freaking point ??

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 20 May 03 - 06:55 PM

Don't worry CarolC - I've marked this thread. You can't run away from it.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: michaelr
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:24 PM

Carol -- re: your 12:59 post: Bravo. I'm with you on this one.

NYC is an obvious troll. Let's not feed him any more.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:25 PM

What, you're planning a vendetta campaign against me, Gareth? Last time you tried that, you just ended up making yourself look like an ass.

If the best you people can do is to attack me, instead of my arguments, seems to me you haven't got much of an argument yourselves. What's that phrase, argumentum ad hominem (sp?)? You guys must be feeling pretty guilty or pretty desperate right now to have such a strong need villify me. Myself, I prefer to discuss ideas rather than to attack people with whom I disagree.

Signing off for about a week and a half now. Here's your chance to really go for the jugular.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:25 PM

Ten-Four, Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 20 May 03 - 07:29 PM

Run away CarolC Run Away

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: TIA
Date: 20 May 03 - 09:45 PM

If CarolC stated opinions without links to sources, wouldn't you be crapping on her for that? Dismissing provision of sources as a "link throwing match" is, to me, a concession that you are not interested in data -- damn the facts, full speed ahead. I've not been around here too long, but occasionally, when I've posted a link, I'll be damned if CarolC hasn't actually read it and commented! Not sayin' my links are particularly important, but it seems that she's reading what other people are throwing, so she's got the right to be doing some throwing herself.

Oh, what the hell am I saying...seen one vase, seen 'em all. Curse you CarolC for exchanging information! You must be one of those educated blue stocking women who've been spoiled for your real purpose by book learnin'. Please keep your opinions to yourself - this is a discussion forum fer chrissakes. And please, no more references..it's just too damn pointy-headed scholarly.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: mg
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:27 PM

Yes, the Arab countries, and I am not sure that Lebanon is officially, totally one, should do and should have done more. Also the Palestinians are not blameless, certainly for the violence, but also for refusing to leave the camps and be repatriated elsewhere, if I am not mistaken. I am no historian and am never mistaken for one. However, she is an educated woman, and she or her editors should know, as I know, as anyone who does a baby-level internet search knows, that referring to making the desert bloom, particularly referring to oranges and olives, is very insulting to Palestinians and their trials. They were world-famous for their oranges, and I have personally made the accidental aquaintance of two now elderly Palestinians who had and lost orange groves. It is like ripping their hearts out. So I find the title of this thread to be either serious or insulting, and I find the editorial to be both true in some respects but also insulting. There is no reason to insult people when it is not necessary. It might be necessary to insult Palestinians for their violence, but it is not necessary to insult them for their agricultural prowess or seeming lack thereof.   What do I know...I am only Irish (American).    mg

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:44 PM

In the past I have expressed my feelings that violence cannot be condoned on either side of this conflict. But I have now seen enough! No, make that, ahhhh, more than enough...

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the Palestinians are so grossly overmatched that they are fighting in the only way they can.

This is so sad a commentary on a failed US foriegn policy....

Can I condone a suicide bombing? Well, no. But I can see the helplessness of a people who some 50 years ago were told to " Get out of Dodge".

Maybe some of these folks who think "occupation" is God's Will syhould consider how they would feel if some asshole knocked on thier door and told them to get the "Fu*k out".....

And now my government, for which I pay taxes, is doing the same thing in Iraq.

Makes this ol' hillbilly sick to my toes....

Sick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:53 PM

CarolC, I'll take a look in occasionally and put in a good word for your argument. Why do most Americans not understand the Israeli/Palestinian "problem?" Because they are doing the same exact thing to the indigenous populations in North America. Put them on reservations, treat them like children (reservations are managed [horribly] by the federal government), condemn their occasional violent outbursts when they've been pushed too far. Pass laws like the Dawes Act, and make it worse every so often with events like Pine Ridge (a la Leonard Peltier vs. the FBI). Steal land with impunity. Sound familiar?

A critic isn't Anti-Semitic if they see the Israeli colonization of Palestine as an aggressive, violent act supported 100% by the United States. He/She is honest. But that doesn't get one far, especially when the christian right is pushing as hard to support Israel as the Jewish Defence League and many other Benevolent Societies are. Like the American Irish supporting the IRA. There is a disconnect between what the New World population understands and what is actually going on in the Old World. There's an emotional, museum-quality, archaic disconnect.

A Jewish feminist friend of mine regularly sends me links to discussions going on among Jewish Americans who are appalled at what is boing done to Palestinians in the name of supporting Israel. There is a peace movement here an in Israel, but it gets virtually no airtime.

George Dubya Bush and his lackeys aren't making it any better.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:41 AM

It should be remembered that originally the state of Israel was never meant to exist. Under the Sykes-Picot Plan the area was supposed to be under international control (British Mandate from the League of Nations). As laid out in the later Balfour Declaration a Jewish 'Homeland' was to be established - a homeland, not a state. Conditions for the setting up of this homeland relied on controlled immigration of Jewish people.

Those controls went out of the window in the aftermath of the second world war. The Jewish immigrants founded their terrorist organisations to fight the British, who were trying to keep immigration within the agreed bounds, and to protect themselves against forces of the Arab League, who quite rightly saw the massive influx of immigrants/refugees/displaced persons as a threat.

When the British left Palestine at the end of the Mandate period, the Jews arose and declared the State of Israel - this State of Israel was immediately recognised by the United States of America AND by the United Nations. It was around this time that the USA gave the firm commitment to Israel that it would support and protect Israel.

The Palestinians who were displaced and became refugees, fled to Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. None of those countries offered any hope to those refugees of citizenship, they preferred to take the stance that the creation of the State of Israel was illegal and that a Pan-Arabic movement would combine to drive the Israelis into the sea and give the land "back" to the Palestinians. They tried in 1956, 1967 and in 1973. By the time of the defeat of Syrian and Egyptian Forces in 1973, the Pan-Arabic movement went into a sharp decline, it's only supporters after Egypt made it's accord with Israel were the late President Assad of Syria and Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

What SRS says above is perfectly true - Israel was, and still is, supported 100% by the USA - but that support was condoned 100% by the United Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 May 03 - 08:13 AM

For years, The US has justified aid to Israel by saying that they are the staunchest ally, in the region. For three billion dollars a year what does the US have to show. Their staucnest ally can't fight by their side because the only thing that the rest of the region agrees on is their hatred of Israel. Israel has weapons of mass destruction. Israel's right, engages in terrorism everytime the rest of the country tries for peace. Israel shots children in the street and bulldozes houses, then has the nerve to ask for help in fighting terror. Sharon is a thug in a league with Hussein. What's worse is that he thinks God is helping in his thuggery. If God has promised Israel to the Jews, let God deliver it to them. George Bush is not God. Aid to Israel should be in proportion to their willingness to make peace.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,Phil McGraw
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:55 AM

It would appear that CarolC did not take Jack the Sailor with her on vacation. Trouble in the Georgia paradise?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:36 PM

Teribus-The Jewish terrorist organizations, such as Irgun, were formed before WWII, trying to open immigration so that Jews could get out of Europe before they were rounded up into death camps. I'm not condoning their tactics, but their aims were perfectly legitimate, and the British government's adherence to tiny quotas made them complicit in the deaths of tens of thousands of European Jews.

When the UN partition plan was made, there were supposed to be two states. The Israeli War of Independence, started by the surrounding Arab nations, put an end to that plan.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:59 PM

FYI:—

Some years back I sat in on a kaffeeklatch where an Egyptian exchange student made the following comment: "How would you people whose families have resided here in Washington State for many generations feel if the United Nations or some other agency told you, 'this land rightfully belongs to the Indians and we're giving it back to them. You must move. Or if you chose to stay, you must live wherever and however they tell you to.' How would you feel?"

I do not care to participate in this discussion, because, as Wolfgang points out, rational discussion of this issue, at least here, doesn't seem to be possible.

By the way, I keep posting this link, but judging from the quality (or lack thereof) of many responses to arguments or assertions made, not all that many people have read it and understood it. So, as a public service and in the interest of a more well-reasoned discussion, I'll post it yet again:—

This is Latin for "cheap shot."   

Incidentally, after reading and absorbing this page, it would be enlightening and edifying to click on the "Previous" and "Next" links on this web site. Lots of interesting and educational material here.

Respectfully submitted,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 21 May 03 - 03:59 PM

the British government's adherence to tiny quotas made them complicit in the deaths of tens of thousands of European Jews.

The correct number is not tens of thousands, it is 6 million.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 03 - 04:13 PM

JTS: is it safe to assume that when you state "in their willingness to make peace," you mean they should give the Palestinians everything they want?

CarolC: I have a feeling the thread will still be here when you get back.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: polaitaly
Date: 21 May 03 - 05:08 PM

I don't see why they should not give the Palestinian what they want: their land back. After all , they've been invaded 36 years ago and occupied since then, despite one or two dozens of ONU resolution.If what the Israeli governement want is peace (and not to keep the land) they should at least to start making plans to retreat, and bring the colonies with them.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 May 03 - 05:36 PM

Good link, Don. Few are interested or willing to put themselves into the position of how it really is today for American Indians living a colonized life in North American reservations. Your example takes it to the next step and suggests current landholders see themselves displaced from their homes and current lifestyles. This is happening peacefully (as I understand it) in some areas in New Zealand and with horrible effects in Zimbabwe (by Mugabe, with his rich cronies getting richer and the poor staying poor). You'll see at the link that there is a proliferation of road maps out there lately.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 21 May 03 - 07:30 PM

Yes it probably will be here, but whilst CarolC is away it might be the debate will be conducted on a logical, non personal, rational line - thank God.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: mg
Date: 21 May 03 - 09:21 PM

well Gareth since you just insulted her perhaps it won't be non-personal unless you go away too.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:18 PM

Gareth, you missed my link again! As far as I am concerned, anyone who attacks the person making the argument instead of trying to refute the argument itself is attempting to play verbal slight-of-hand. This is not a rational way to discuss. And I, for one, do not waste my time discussing issues with irrational people.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 03 - 04:42 AM

Forum Lurker,

"..and the British government's adherence to tiny quotas.." was to honour commitments and agreements made with the Arabs living in Palestine at the time of the British Mandate (Which was on behalf of the League of Nations and had nothing to do with the United Nations). The agreed quota I believe was 48,000 immigrants per year.

The UN partition plan was made after the British Mandate had expired and after the Jewish settlers had declared the existence of the state of Israel, which as I have previously stated was recognised by the United Nations.

To level the charge of complicity in the deaths of the holocaust victims, I think that you would have to spread your net a bit wider than merely singling out the UK by virtue of its honouring agreements made long before the evils of Nazi Germany manifested itself.

JtS,

A slightly one sided perspective. No mention of Egypt, Syria and Jordans very publically broadcast intentions to eliminate every vestage of the state of Israel. Their join vow to drive the Israelis into the sea (Those still remain the avowed intentions of Hamas). Now considering the time 1947 - 1973, and taking into account what had happened to the Jews of Europe during the period 1933 - 1945. There is no way whatsoever that any Israeli Government was ever going to take such threats lightly - to any Jew such threats are very, very real - they have suffered such an attempt in the past and they have, quite rightly, taken the stance that it shall never happen again. If they do have nuclear weapons/WMD's, and I believe that everyone does believe that the Israelis have such weapons, it is for the reason that surrounded and out-numbered as they are - they are the only nation in the region that needs them to guarantee its own survival. While the United States of America has sworn to protect the sovereignty of the state of Israel, the Israelis, again quite rightly, are not going to relinquish their right of self-defence and place their reliance on survival into the hands of a foreign power.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 22 May 03 - 06:19 AM

Sorry Mary - Those who habd it out must be prepared to take it

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 22 May 03 - 09:34 AM

Posting a quickie from Lake Charles Louisana. Having a GREAT time.

Wow Gareth! I didn't know you were so obsessed with me. I guess I should be flattered. Out of all of the hundreds of people you could have picked to stalk and harass here in this forum, you picked me! How sweet!

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:28 AM

The criticisms of Carol here have been for citing too many sources of allegedly suspect credibility, Gareth. Your deal seems strangely personal. You okay?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Nerd
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:50 AM

One of the things I can't understand is how people can still say things like "The Israelis should give them back their land." They've tried! A few years ago they were ready to sign an agreement that gave Arafat everything he demanded, including a divided city of Jerusalem. Arafat refused to sign. Israel concluded from this that the Palestinian leadership is NOT interested in living peacefully on the West Bank in a separate state. They still want to eliminate Israel and take over. This hardassed right-wing Israeli government is one result of that conclusion.

Arafat is a huge stumbling-block, because in free and fair elections he probably wouldn't win. So he's personally worried about what would happen to him if Palestine became a democratic state. Every bit of power he has is vested in Palestinian non-statehood. I think the palestinian people will ultimately have to get rid of him for any change to occur.

Another thing that angers me is how other Arab nations pay huge lip service to Palestinian suffering, but won't let the Palestinians immigrate into their countries. The utter transparency of this hypocrisy is laughable. They are heartbroken and appalled at 50 years of this refugee situation, but they know perfectly well if they sat down and said, "Let's divide up the Palestinian population and offer them citizenship" there would be no more refugee problem. The worst culprit, of course, is Jordan, which is a nation of Palestinians who won't let the other Palestinians in, but prefer to squeal about the evils of Israel.

I think Israel is far from blameless in all this. But I think the Palestinian situation is too often treated as an "Israeli problem." It is in fact a problem created by other Arab countries' reaction to the formation of the state of Israel. It remains an Arab situation, a problem of Arabs who will not help each other, but instead use each other as weapons in a war to eliminate Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:05 PM

Teribus-You're quite right. The U.S.A., and a number of other countries are similarly complicit, having refused boatloads of Holocaust refugees entry. It doesn't make the British actions any better.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:07 PM

A few years back there were some men forced to live for months in a No Man's Land area between Israel and Lebanon or Jordan--don't remember which zone it was. Anyone remember that? Noplace would take them in; I think they finally returned to Israel.

Israel has some consitutents who are very good at giving with one hand and taking with the other, and usually Arafat is set up between them just as an attempt to sign accords comes around. It's like clockwork. Here's Horsey's view of the process.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 22 May 03 - 02:18 PM

G' Heric, no I am Ok. It's the vicious peranal attacks I retaliate to !!! Which seems to be the usaual resort of another Mudcatter.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: AggieD
Date: 22 May 03 - 05:38 PM

I have no doubts that the Zionists from the early days had their sites on Palestine as a place to settle, but they were aware of the back breaking work that would have to go into making it a decent place to live.

There is no doubt that the Palestinians were exporters of oranges pre-Israel, but I would seriously doubt those who believe that it was the land that many are trying to conjur up, where the fertile plains were overbriming with luscious fruit & olive groves.

You want factual articles try reading through this site:http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/c2feff7b90a24815052565e6004e5630?OpenDocument which is the official British report of 1930, & you will see that the British Government were bailing out the Palestinian farmers, to ensure that they were profitable. Yes I am aware that this was in the early part of the Depression, but their were many others who would not have been bailed out, including British Nationals.

My Mother-in-Law was an early Kibbutz worker, during the early 1950's & even at that time the work was back breaking to trying to establish the agriculture of settlements. They were faced, not with wonderfull land that they just walked into & stole from the Palestinians, but fields full of nothing, where they cleared the stones & rock with bare hands & watered it with buckets until they built irrigation systems. They lived hard lives in tents, not in stone houses stolen from the people already there.

Yes they did try to get more people into Palestine than the mandate allowed, because they could see the early stages of what was going to happen in Europe. They had already seen millions of Jews forced out of their ancient homelands in Russia, Latvia, Ukraine, Poland etc. & wanted to know that there would be somewhere they could go where they would not be beaten, tortured, murdered & raped, just because of their religious beliefs.

Yes I do not condone, as many Jews do not condone the building of settlements on the West Bank etc., but as Nerd has said, when they tried to negotiate, not only did Arafat refuse, but a hardline Jew murdered Yitzhak Rabin. At that time the Israeli government were doing ther damndest to get the settlers to stop building & were getting a very hard time of it & subsequently the hard right were let into power.

Suppose Native Americans, suddenly started a campaign of terror to recapture all their ancient homelands & that involved taking homes that you US citizens have, how would you feel? Would you just say "Gee guys, sure we'll move out of this wonderful abode to make way for you to roam in your ancient ways" I very much doubt it.
We may believe that both sides have it wrong, but the hardline Jews are winning out because Arafat & his cronies keep doing their utmost to keep terror alive & not give way on negotiations.

Am I too emotional about the subject? You bet I am. If my Grandparents hadn't been part of that mass emigration from the pogroms of Eastern Europe around the turn of the century, then they would have been part of the mass murder that wiped out just about all of my Grandparents' families.

This is a very emotive subject for all Jews around the world, & although most of us can see the injustice of what is happening in Israel, we constantly have the past, & not just the recent past in our hearts. We don't want to be denied & wiped out, as the Arab Nations would have us.

If people want to be genuine human rights campaigners then I have no problem with that, but please stop believing everything you read, no matter what the source.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 03 - 07:10 PM

What an offensive thing to say to someone. She accuses me, a Jew, of being an anti-Semite

How could that possibly be "offensive"? It's quite impossible for anyone to know that someone posting as "GUEST,New York City" is Jewish in the first place. Anybody can be amnything on the net.

Since the suggestion was that the person making the post was being anti-semitic (in the anti-Jewish sense of that word), tbe presumption would have been that they probably weren't Jewish. This may have been an erroneous assumption, but it means that the offensiveness implied is surely not there.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 22 May 03 - 07:16 PM

As I've said before Kevin - Anti Semetic is shorthand for "I'am loosing the argumentand therefore have to result in non original insults".

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 23 May 03 - 04:55 AM

Forum Lurker,

"Teribus-The Jewish terrorist organizations, such as Irgun, were formed before WWII, trying to open immigration so that Jews could get out of Europe before they were rounded up into death camps."

The Jewish Terrorist/Self-Defence Organisations:

Haganah - A self-defence miltia organisation created in the aftermath of the 1920 Riots. Disbanded in 1948 with the creation of the IDF

Irgun B - 1931 - 1948: Formed by the Revisionists who wanted Haganah to be more a military as opposed to militia type organisation. Haganah resisted this move, Irgun members were discriminated against with regard to work and access to funds. More militant than Haganah, Irgun B provided the outlet for more aggressive action against both the Arabs and the British, they became in fact a terrorist organisation. For funding they relied on Jewish communities in eastern Europe and in the United States, your contention that they formed specifically to get Jews out of Europe is incorrect - Irgun relied on those communities being in place for funding. Irgun carried out the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre in 1948. Menachem Begin who later became Prime Minister of Israel was one of this groups leaders. Disbanded in 1948 with the creation of the IDF.

LEHI (Stern Gang) - 1940 - 1948: Purely a terrorist group targeting the British. They were responsible for the murder of the UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte in 1948 and were outlawed by the emergent Israeli authorities. Yitzhak Shamir was responsible for planning the murder - he too later became Prime Minister of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: TIA
Date: 23 May 03 - 01:50 PM

Damn! Perianal attacks? Now THAT'S personal.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:49 PM

CLOUDCROFT — That they were speeding through the school zone first got his attention.

That they had Israeli driver's licenses and expired passports made him suspicious....

"They said this is a U-Haul truck and handed me a rental agreement (for) in-town delivery only in Illinois, (which) had expired two days before," Green said....

"But they couldn't give us an address in Deming they were going to," he said. "Once we got into the truck, they had some junk furniture I wouldn't have given to Goodwill...."

Also inside the vehicle were, Green said, "50 boxes" they claimed was a "private" delivery, but the men insisted they had no "idea what was in them."

At that point, the officers called for drug-sniffing and bomb-sniffing dogs. The men were turned over to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and U-Haul recovered the truck. Contents of the boxes remain unknown, pending investigation.

Link

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 03 - 12:30 PM

Gads. Guest 7:49, what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 May 03 - 07:07 AM

It's quite impossible for anyone to know that someone posting as "GUEST,New York City" is Jewish in the first place.
Anybody can be amnything on the net. (McGrath)

For your information, McGrath: Yom Hashoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day) begins at sundown this evening (Monday) and continues until one hour after sundown tomorrow.

      On this day we (my emphasis) remember the 6,000,000 Jews killed in the Holocaust, the German Nazis attempt to exterminate all of the Jews of Europe.

Personally, I remember two sets of grandparents, and many other relatives, who were murdered before I was born.

was the second post of New York City on this forum.

To call her or him a virulent anti-semite is offensive in my book.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 26 May 03 - 12:16 PM

Thank you, Wolfgang.

I'll also note that Ariel Sharon, despite what CarolC claims about his motives, has now endorsed a Palestinian state.

It was a previous Likud leader, Menachem Begin, who made peace with the Egyptians.

Americans might remember that it was Richard Nixon, the supportive Vice-President of the anti-Communist McCarthy era, who normalized relations with China.

There is hope in these times.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 03 - 02:40 PM

But I can't see how Wolfgang;s post there that in any ways alters the truth of "Anybody can be anything on the net". People put on masks.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,George Bernard Shawshank Redemption
Date: 26 May 03 - 08:40 PM

Excuse me, McGrath of Harlow, can you repair my hamster? It's already May 26 and I have to meet someone at the Mudcat Cafe.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 26 May 03 - 10:12 PM

Too many folks with a "yeah but what about what hapenned back in___________ when __________ tied to_________________.

Bottom line, the US has always had it in their power (well, maybe not as much today with Bush pissing off so many folks around the world...) to *force* a peaceful solution in the Middle East. Until it gets serious and makes it clear to *all* parties that it is, nothing is going to happen! Guarenteed.

Put in my hands, without any veto powers from the president and I'd have not only a framework, but have the land divied up with a DMZ and an aid package to get Palestine's econmomy jump started. It ain't rocket science. Geeee. Some folks gotta get simple stuff all confuzerated.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 03 - 02:48 AM

Bobert,

"the US has always had it in their power to *force* a peaceful solution in the Middle East. Until it gets serious and makes it clear to *all* parties that it is, nothing is going to happen! Guarenteed."

There is absolutely no way any lasting peace settlement can be *forced* on any side in any conflict situation. That idea is totally ludicrous. A lasting peace settlement will only ever come about when the people (in this particular case the Israelis and Palestinians) come to the inevitable conclusion that they have to share the same lump of this planet, irrespective of past history, and that it is for the greater benefit of all that they do so in a peaceful manner. It is not entirely in the power of the United States of America to provide a solution, true, they can exert a certain amount of pressure on the Israelis, but that on its own is not enough. Equally true, they could attempt to "buy off" neighbouring Arab Governments, but that would not necessarily have the desired effect. On the other side of the equation, supporting Arab states can do two things, cut off funding for Palestinian terrorist groups and offer citizenship to the Palestinian refugees who have been living within their borders for the last 55 years. If the latter is considered totally unacceptable then right of return can only be negotiated if those Arab states who expelled their Jewish minorities in 1967 grant right of return to the 500,000 people they foricibly deported - personally after all these years I doubt very much if they would have many takers.

"Put in my hands, without any veto powers from the president and I'd have not only a framework, but have the land divied up with a DMZ and an aid package to get Palestine's econmomy jump started. It ain't rocket science."

This, I take it, is your "Emergency Middle East Peace Summit" - where you invite, cajoal and kidnap the leaders/spokesmen of all the various countries and factions involved and imprison them until they all reach an agreement. An agreement reached under such circumstances Bobert would not be worth the paper it was written on and would hold for about as long as a snowball would survive in hell.

No Bobert, "It ain't rocket science" - it's a damn sight more complicated than that. It only appears to be simple to you because you refuse to acknowledge the complexities. Who would enforce and pay for your DMZ Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 03 - 08:42 AM

Well, T-Bird, you like to make everything complicated. Hey, it ain't. You got two folks that got bad blood. Get them the heck away from one another...

If I'm giving Isreal $3B a year I have a lot of say in the deal.

I don't even see an attempt on then the US's part. Not even an attempt. Hey, we propose a plan with so many loopholes that its really no a plan at all...

But you and Bush and Sharon can keep it as compl;icated as you folks think is necessary to maintain the staus quo...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,George Bernard Shawshank Redemption
Date: 27 May 03 - 09:10 AM

Excuse me, Bobert, can you repair my hamster? It's already May 27 and I have to meet someone at the Mudcat Cafe.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:06 AM

Don't you see the twisted logic in your first post here, McGrath? Since we speak Latin in this thread, it is a variant of argumentum ad ignorantiam.

A GUEST posting here with a consistent name, New York City, says (by implication) (s)he is Jewish and has lost relatives in the Shoa. A couple of days later Carol calls him or her a virulent anti-semite. NYC calls that remark offensive.

Then you come and say the remark is not offensive since we cannot know whether New York City is actually Jewish or not.

With this type of argumentation nothing can be called offensive anymore. I am a German Neonazi who has raped a Turkish immigrant? That's not offensive for it could be true after all (meaning you could never be completely sure that it is not true). You are the IRA's godfather of the English campaign? From all I know (or better: I don't know) about you it could be true. CarolC is a member of Israel's secret service trying to make Western intellectuals supporting Palestinians look dumb...

I think we are better off when we take what people post about themselves as true and treat them accordingly. It makes the communication easier and the few errors we make this way are on the side of treating wrongduers with undue civility.

Looking back I still think Carol made a very cheap shot with her remark about NYC's anti-semitism.

--------

I'm not at all against links to support argumentation. There are many good or less good reasons to post links in political threads. One type I call for myself the let-me-show-you-how-I-came-to-think-this-way type. I love these informative links and Carol has posted a couple of them in the Israel/Palestine threads. The type I dislike is the look-how-many-websites-I-know-sharing-my-opinion type. Especially, if links of this type come in half dozens in many posts in quick succession and all of them bring the same information in slightly differing words then I know a link-throwing competition has begun.

Multi-linking of this type invariably elicits in me the same reaction I get when a sales(wo)man can't stop talking to me while I consider an offer (or an argument). I think to myself how unsecure (s)he must be of his or her arguments when repeating her(him)self incessantly. Less is more here, at least with me.

--------

Whenever I go to my local supermarket I see a small memorial plaque telling (rephrasing in my words): On (date given, late 1930s), from this place, several hundred Jews from Muenster have been deported to (a concentration camp). 12 of them have come back in 1945. Whenever I cycle to work I pass the place in which the Gestapo has tortured German Jews (and communists, and...).

This may explain to you why I have a deep sympathy for Israel's wish to live in peace in a land with undisputed borders and with no government (or subgovernmental organisation in a neighbouring land) denying its right to exist. This sympathy doesn't extend to everything what the present Israeli government does. Many of its actions do not promote peace at all in my eyes. This sympathy doesn't exclude feelings for the plight of the Palestinians. However, some of this plight has been caused by actions (or inactions) from Arab countries (that's what the link in the first post is about though it belittles too much the responsibility of Israel) and some of it has been self-inflicted by a policy that matches Sharon's in political stupidity.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:21 AM

Yo, GUEST, GBSR, I generally don't do hampsters but, what the heck. Ship the little feller to me and I'll see waht I can do fir the little guy.

Bobert

p.s. Don't firget to poke a few holes in the box and write "This side Up" on the box so the poor thing won't have to walk upside down on the way....

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 27 May 03 - 11:22 AM

Again, thanks Wolfgang.

McGrath of Harlow,

I've read your complaints that you cannot deal with guests who do not use a handle. I do.

I have been upfront in the Mudcat forum about my background. I am Jewish-American. For the record, I lost my grandparents in the Holocaust. My parents were teenaged survivors when the War ended and they arrived in New York City in 1949. I was born in Brooklyn in 1959 and now live in Manhattan. I work in my family's business and am an acoustic guitarist who performs part-time, primarily as a backup musician.

When CarolC decided to give up arguing facts with me, she decides to marginalize me by saying that I'm a virulent anti-Semite. And you back her up. That's very telling.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:46 AM

"Yom Hashoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day) begins at sundown this evening (Monday) and continues until one hour after sundown tomorrow.

      On this day we (my emphasis) remember the 6,000,000 Jews killed in the Holocaust, the German Nazis attempt to exterminate all of the Jews of Europe.

Personally, I remember two sets of grandparents, and many other relatives, who were murdered before I was born."

was the second post of New York City on this forum.

To call her or him a virulent anti-semite is offensive in my book.

--Wolfgang

Wolfgang, this post from you surprises me quite a lot. Despite your own bias on this subject, I have nevertheless tended to view you as a logical person. What indication do you have that I ever even saw that post from Guest,New York City?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 03 - 03:19 AM

Well now - so it aint complicated.

Boberts immediate solution in the interests of keeping, "two folks that got bad blood. Get them the heck away from one another..." is to create a DMZ - I note Bobert dodged the questions I asked relating to this exercise, and here are a couple more:

I will take it as read that Bobert has looked at an atlas recently and appreciates how small a country in terms of area wer are talking about.

1. How wide is your DMZ going to be Bobert?

2. Who do you disposses of land to create it?

"If I'm giving Isreal $3B a year I have a lot of say in the deal." But Bobert that, as I have pointed out, is only one side of the problem - what makes it easy for you is your belief that all fault lies on the side of the Israelis - it doesn't.

"I don't even see an attempt on then the US's part. Not even an attempt."

And neither you should Bobert if any US administration was following your advice. To make such pressure public knowledge would only serve to harden the resolve of the Palestinian terrorist organisations, because all of a sudden the US has become, publically, their strongest ally.

"Hey, we propose a plan with so many loopholes that its really no a plan at all..."

The plan to which you refer, Bobert, has been accepted by both sides and is hence a basis for negotiation - a way forward.

Going back to your enforced settlement of the dispute Bobert. Just think back to your last Presidential Election - a solution was forced on the American electorate - a solution that was accepted by both principals. Did you accept it Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:12 AM

Carol,

one of your favourite rhetorical tricks is to accuse others of making assumptions. You have done that at least twice in the What is Anti-Semitism thread, but the one person here who is full with unfounded assumptions is you. Remember when you accused me in that thread of something which I had neither said nor meant about Palestinians and what existed only in your fantasy?

You did the same in the Al-Dura thread, when you made assumptions about New York City which had no foundations in what (s)he actually had posted here. Based on these wrong assumptions ("I can't help but think" you did write) you hurled out an insult. Before I make such an insult I usually try to inform myself a bit about the person. My little search showed you how easy it could have been for you to inform yourself. The posting history of New York City is very short.

However, I would never have mentioned it again if not McGrath had made what I consider an ill-conceived attempt to support you. I then deliberately singled out the post you may or may not have seen. I was open to the possibility you had not seen it, but the rest of New York City posts was not so different that a person reading without a profound bias would come to a different conclusion.

Well, you don't say explicitely in your last post you had not read that post from New York City, but it seems to be implied. However, it doesn't seem to make a big difference to you otherwise I think you would have apologised now.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:04 AM

Remember when you accused me in that thread of something which I had neither said nor meant about Palestinians and what existed only in your fantasy?

No, not a fantasy. A conclusion based on what I have read from you. Drawing conclusions about people based on what you have read from them is something you even do yourself. For instance, you have concluded, based on what you have read from me that I am biased. In the case of the conclusion I drew about you, you told me that it was incorrect, and if you recall, after you told me that, I said I was willing to take your word for it that I was wrong.

GUEST,New York City has been behaving like a troll, and he or she uses his/her alleged Jewishness as a weapon here in the Mudcat. I'm not the only person who has concluded that he/she is a troll. I had no idea when I posted what I did about him or her whether or not he/she was actually Jewish or just pretending. That wasn't of particular concern for me for the point I was trying to make.

My comments on the other thread were a somewhat obscure way of saying that the behavior GUEST,New York City is engaging in here in the Mudcat is as damaging to the perception of Jews by people who are not Jewish as just about anything that might be posted by an anti-Semite. I can understand how a point made as obscurely as this might elude you even with your excellent command of English.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:24 AM

GUEST,New York City has been behaving like a troll, and he or she uses his/her alleged Jewishness as a weapon here in the Mudcat.

What utter nonsense. First, CarolC, offensively, tries to paint me as an anti-Semite, then as a troll. Dehumanizing your opponent is a tactic that is well known to propagandists. That is obviously her methodology.

As I mentioned earleir, I will no longer engage in debate with CarolC. She has shown how pointless an exercise that is.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:41 AM

The ugly German shows his face (translated from Der Spiegel July, 2002). An article about how anti-semitism was used as a weapon in the last German elections.

Ralph Giordano (writer and holocaust survivor) is cited in this article:

Accusing the Jews themselves of being responsible for anti-Semitism is exactly how the persecution and killing of Jews was justified throughout Western history.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:42 AM

NYC,

You are hardly the first Mudcatter to get that kind of treatment fom CarolC. Mike Miller gave up for pretty much the same reasons. Before that there was Irwin.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:09 PM

>>Accusing the Jews themselves of being responsible for anti-Semitism is exactly how the persecution and killing of Jews was justified throughout Western history.<<

Wowzer! CarolC's genocidal proclivities. Who says we can't discuss this stuff rationally?

And beyond that, it's a rather remarkable quote to wrap one's brain around. How about this: "Persecution and killing of Jews throughout Western history occurred because the people who hated 'them' believed that some group other than the Jews was responsible for anti-Semitism." Nope, that doesn't work very well either. . . Confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:35 PM

Yo, T:

We're rehashing old material here but I think a DMZ wide enough to keep folks from shooting each other with rifles would probably suffice.

As fir placing blame, you are well aware that over the last couple years I have placed blame on both sides. Only problem is, that in a conflict where one side is obviously superior and having its way, it is their attention that must be gotten first.

As to where the teritorial line be drawn? I don't think it unreasonable to take the land that the Palestianians lived on 20 years ago and use that as the line then divie the DMZ from both sides of that line. No matter what line one uses, it will; be arbitrary in nature. Hey, life ain't perfect and neither is the world but ya got to start somewhere. Howz about you, T? Where would you suggest the line be drawn?

As fir the election/selection? Well, I think we got jipped because we had so many defectors to Gore because folks were scared out of their minds of Bush. I think had Gore or Bush gone into the election with a 20 10 point lead we would have gotten the 5% we needed to get into the debates next time around.

Speaking of getting jipped, I think the entire country got jipped in having a close election called off by 5 very partisan political appointees. It was definately a major setback for democracy and the way it is turning out with Bush, for America.

There, T, did I answer all the questions? Boy, you're compulsive. Bet you drive yer S.O. nuts! Awwww, jus' funnin' with ya, T-Bird.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 28 May 03 - 07:37 PM

Bobert - Sometime you have to hold yer nose and vote - I did in 1983.

We still lost.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 03 - 07:45 PM

Hey, I've voted in every election since I became old enough to vote and only once have I voted fir the guy who won: Jimmy Carter. But I'll keep at it, but I'm not too interested in voting fir Repubocrats on a national scene, but should Senator Bryd run again, I'll vote fir him.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:49 PM

You're just getting loopy now, Wolfgang. As I said before, I didn't know whether or not GUEST,New York City was Jewish when I made that post. I don't care whether or not GUEST, New York City is Jewish. I'm not blaming Jews for anti-Semitism. I would have to KNOW that GUEST, New York City is Jewish in order to do that. But I do know that when people treat others as the enemy needlessly, they create new enemies. GUEST,New York City has been doing that, and he/she is doing it in the name of Judaism. I think that is a mistake.

So go ahead, GUEST,New York City, ignore me. I implore you to ignore me. You too, other GUEST, and you too, Wolfgang.

Most of this thread is nothing more than a very bizarre feeding frenzy by a bunch of people who are out for blood. I can see the shark fins circling in the waters. Maybe you all think you can punish the Palestinians by taking it out on me. Have fun with it.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 03 - 11:03 PM

CarolC;

Ahhhh, I don't know if you have happened to notice but there a couple of really deranged folks here who just *have* to win. They will spit hair after hair in search of that one little victory but that one little victory will cost them in the end. They are so blinded in detail that they will never see the big picture. Sad.

Don't get pulled down to their little detail focused existences, where victory can be pulled from a slide under a danged microscope. Make them come up to your level which is one of ideas, visions, concepts and love.

Hey, shake the dust from *your* robe.

Really.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 03 - 11:12 PM

Thanks Bobert. They can't bring me down. But I don't think love is going to change their minds. I think they just need to discover what they want by experiencing what they don't want. When they get tired of what they're doing now, they'll stop doing it and try something different.

Thanks also, michaelr, TIA, and Stilly River Sage.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 03 - 01:59 AM

I've just read this whole thread a bit more carefully than I had time to before. I think I have sold this thread short in a couple of ways. First of all, Wolfgang, you criticized me for accusing you of something you never said or meant. Then you went and did something quite similar to me. You have assumed that my posting of multiple links is a tactic of trying to overwhelm the other people in the threads with links. You said:

The type I dislike is the look-how-many-websites-I-know-sharing-my-opinion type.

This is entirely incorrect. I would be happy to be able to post only one link for every point I want to make. It would be a lot less work for me. But I have found that on the subject of Israel/Palestine, people won't accept only one link or one source. They tend to dismiss it out of hand if more than one source isn't provided. Of course, some dismiss them out of hand even when several sources are provided, but only posting one link wouldn't make any difference with those people.

This may explain to you why I have a deep sympathy for Israel's wish to live in peace in a land with undisputed borders and with no government (or subgovernmental organisation in a neighbouring land) denying its right to exist.

It is an assumption on your part that I don't also have a deep sympathy for this very same thing. Where you and I differ is that in my opinion, the approach that the government of Israel is taking is giving them exactly the opposite result of the one they say they want.

I also see that there are quite a few very thoughtful posts in this thread that are not at all what I described in my second to last post. I apologize to those who posted them for this statement by me: "Most of this thread is nothing more than a very bizarre feeding frenzy by a bunch of people who are out for blood". Clearly the people who are/were doing that are in the minority, and everyone else deserves better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: DougR
Date: 29 May 03 - 02:29 AM

Scuse please: CarolC: it is not clear to me; are you trying to convince the folks that you are NOT biased in favor of the Palestinians?

Bobert: back to Teribus question. To create your DMZ, who is going to give up the land to create it? Who is going to force whoever it is to give the land up?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 03 - 05:44 AM

Carol,

I don't think we should make this thread into a private match. I won't respond to you here in this thread after this post except perhaps with thematic content.

I don't know why and what my contribution to that is but you fail to understand me and my motivation nearly each time you try.

When I wrote "The type (of links) I dislike is the look-how-many-websites-I-know-sharing-my-opinion type" that was an explanation as response for instance to TIA's Dismissing provision of sources as a "link throwing match" is, to me, a concession that you are not interested in data -- damn the facts, full speed ahead. I just wanted to make sure in that paragraph that I do appreciate links in general.

My paragraph was not about you! I only have mentioned you as a positive example in that paragraph about links. You are but one of several people I have in mind that sometimes cross the line from which on I start disliking their link orgy. (You are by far not the worst offender in my eyes, but I don't want to start a new off-topic match). And, by the way, after citing a sentence by me in which I tell what I dislike, you should not write "This is entirely incorrect" as if you would know better than I what I dislike.

It is an assumption on your part that I don't also have a deep sympathy for this very same thing.

Huh? That whole paragraph in my post was not at all about you. You are not as often in my mind as you think you are. I have spoken about my feelings, my experiences and my sympathies. That paragraph, set off visibly of the rest of my post was addressed to 'all' (who may care reading about some background for my sympathies). By the way, the only person I had particularly in mind when writing this paragraph was New York City. When I write about me I make no assumptions whatsoever about others, especially I do never make the assumption that someone else does not share my feelings.

Carol, like here you read some implication from my post that is nowhere in my words and definitely not in my mind.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 03 - 12:08 PM

Looks like we're both doing the same thing to each other then, Wolfgang. Maybe we should stop doing it.

No, DougR, I'm not trying to convince people of that. I don't consider myself to have a bias in that respect, but I know that that knowlege isn't going to sway the minds of people who believe that I do. It doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things what they think about me anyway, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 03 - 12:51 PM

same old - how petty - -

BTW a DMZ where people could not shoot each other would have to be wider than the country. A good sniper could hit someone at 2000 yards. Not sure it's that simple Bobert - - Can't believe you are ascribing violence on the part of the homicide bombers as being OK. Kind of a double take from who you have purported to be in the past - maybe you ought to check out your good book again -

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 29 May 03 - 01:15 PM

There should be a name for this technique:

>>>Soon, Carol will post here what she sees as the real truth (which is in my eyes at least as slanted as the site you have been linking to).

Most of us don't post to the history of that conflict any longer for these threads attrack outright anti-semites as Dreaded Guest and, in the best case, after a short time the debate becomes a link throwing match with Carol winning by exhaustion of all remaining opponents.

Read some of the old threads and you'll see that a rational discussion of that conflict here is not possible.<<

To be followed by:

>>>>Carol,
I don't think we should make this thread into a private match. I won't respond to you here in this thread after this post except perhaps with thematic content. <<<<

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 29 May 03 - 01:22 PM

I think I would call it the Vaporising Spitball.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 29 May 03 - 02:13 PM

Doug:

Reread my last post for the word "divied" (sp?) and you'll see my position. You missed that important word.

GUEST, 12:51:

Nice try. Find where I said suicide bombers are OK, my friend, and I'll kiss yer butt in the middle of the Mudcat Town Center. Man, I've heard of poetic license but now outright lieing is bad on the soul...

T-Bird:

Still waitin' on where you think the line should be. Or evn if there should be one?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 03 - 02:20 PM

LOL heric.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 03 - 03:41 AM

Bobert,

According to UN Resolution 242 the line is the established Israeli border of pre-six-day war days, that is not going to happen, but it does provide the start point for any negotiation.

A DMZ must be enforced, patrolled and maintained, all at a cost I do not believe anyone would be prepared to take on. Even if someone were, it would in all probability be ineffective, so there is no real point in having one (case in point: the UN peace line, in effect a DMZ, did not work in Lebanon). If we are talking about a peaceful settlement then the foundation of that settlement is the realisation on both sides that they are better off living peacefully, better off co-existing. If that message gets hoisted home there is no requirement for a DMZ.