Subject: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:37 PM This expression came up in another thread, as it does from tine to time, and it suddenly occurred to me to wonder where the hell the phrase comes from. More to the point, how has it come to be used to mean doing something which is very easy, or picking on targets impossible to miss? For in reality "shooting at fish in a barrel" would surely be remarkably hard to do, and you'd very likely end up killing yourself or someone else. With a wooden bucket you'd shoot straight through, with a metal bucket the bullet would likely bounce out agauin - and even if you used a pea-shooter, hitting a fish would be extraordinarily difficult, given the way water refracts light. Normally, when curiosity gets awoken by a phrase in this manner, it's an easy matter to solve the riddle through Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase or Fable, or via Google. But this time, no luck. Plenty of people using the phrase, but no indication could I find as to where it comes from, and how it can possibly make any kind of sense. So can anybody out there throw any light on it? |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: mousethief Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:43 PM I think that it's a corruption of "Shooting Phish in a barrel" which is a much simpler thing. If you got all the band members of Phish into a small barrel, shooting them would be easy. I'll get me coat. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Blissfully Ignorant Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:46 PM Maybe it's a corruption of 'shooting pish into a barrel'? Lower pants, take aim... and.....fire! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: artbrooks Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM Use a shotgun in a very shallow barrel...or even better a 1/4 pound stick of dynamite. No problem. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: PoppaGator Date: 26 Nov 04 - 05:10 PM If the fish is in the barrel of your gun (as opposed to residing in a cask of some sort), I'm sure it would be hard to miss. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:48 PM If you were using a bow and arrow... it would be alot easier than sneaking up on the slimy buggers out in the wild... and you could retrieve your arrows with scarsely an effort! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Blissfully Ignorant Date: 26 Nov 04 - 06:52 PM Ah...but how would you get them into the barrel in the first place? |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:06 PM Even with a bow and arrow it'd require a great deal of skill, because of the refraction of light. But the implication when the expression is used is that it would be simple. I suppose if it were a very big fish and a small barrel it would be easier. It sounds as if it must come from some kind of story. I'm still hoping that someone will be able to come up with some reference. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Bill D Date: 26 Nov 04 - 07:20 PM well, I figured that finding learned dissertations on the would be like stealing candy from a baby, but I guess not... most of the site which usually know the answer have missed it....maybe it's too common to trace. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: mack/misophist Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM I think it's akin to "can't hit the broad side of a barn". ie. It's not something any one is really going to try, it just sounds good. A bit like "a boar hog in a peach orchard"; it won't happen if you've got any sense. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:16 PM But someone must have said it in some part of the world. And unlike the other examples you gave, mack, this one doesn't seem to make much sense. One parallel is Simple Simon - Simple Simon went a-fishing For to catch a whale: All the water he had got Was in his mother's pail! However the implication of this is that the fishing expedition was not a great success. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Bill D Date: 26 Nov 04 - 08:31 PM if this site doesn't have any info, it is hard to know who would... Oh, there are LOTS of explanations about what it means, but virtually no information about possible origins except this note from the listserv of the American Dialect Society which finds an entry in a newspaper from 1911. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Mooh Date: 26 Nov 04 - 09:15 PM In a barrel there is virtually no light refraction because one is supposedly looking straight down. A shot gun would nail nearly anything in a barrel, and exactly what's it made of that it would reflect shot? Water also slows the shot a bit, especially on rebound, doesn't it? Just supposing. Peace, Mooh. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Rapparee Date: 26 Nov 04 - 10:36 PM I haven't worked out the math or anything, but if you did have a gun muzzle perpendicular to and close to the surface of liquid in a barrel -- water, I assume, in this case -- the blast from the firing could cause any fish in the barrel to float to the surface, concussed and unconcious. But you'd need a pretty powerful gun, perhaps a 12 or 10 gauge shotgun, and it would be a good idea NOT to stick the muzzle into the water. I also haven't tried this, and don't really want to. Shooting fish in the wild used to be legal in, I believe, Vermont. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: PoppaGator Date: 26 Nov 04 - 10:56 PM It never occurred to me that anyone would ever have the slightest difficulty shoting fish in a barrel. Now we're dealing with questions about physics! I think it only seems problematic if you're picturing *one* fish in a barrel. If you understand the word "fish" as plural, you can see that the barrel is chock full of fish, piled on top of each other -- sitting ducks,in other words, to mix a metaphor. See -- it's all the fault of that dang English language, failing to diffrentiate between singluar and plural for one particular word, the noun "fish."-- like "deer." |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Billy the Bus Date: 27 Nov 04 - 02:09 AM G'day McGrath, Mi braincell is working overtime, trying to recall the 'Shooting Ballery' in the cicus sideshow, when I was a kid. You got a pea-rifle to shoot at fixed targets, or rows of moving tagets that flipped over when you hit them. One I recall also had a tub of turbulent water, with numbered ducks bobbing about on the surface. That was thetricki one. Maybe the expression refers to an early variant, with a barrel? Cheers - Sa, |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Boab Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:00 AM Akin to the Scots " |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Boab Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:06 AM Dunno what that Boab guy's on about; maybe he's been on the piss or something. I think he was trying to say --akin to the Scots "couldnae hit doors at Hall'een" . Or couldnae hit the right key on the keyboard even when he's sober---- |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: gnomad Date: 27 Nov 04 - 06:50 AM I've never thought about this one before, but I wonder whether PoppaGator could be on to something. The line says fish in a barrel, not in a barrel full of water. This makes me think in terms of barrels of herring, pilchards, or similar. Fish used to be shipped in this fashion, packed in so tight that if you had the means to shoot the barrel at all, you could hardly fail to hit a fish. I have no grounds to support the theory, it's just an idea. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: GUEST,Beetle Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:49 AM My helicopter outfit in Viet Nam had a door-gunner's joke -- like shooting fish in a barrel EXCEPT that the fish get to shoot back! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:18 PM That's an idea - a barrel full of fish, but not full of water. Though I can't see people saying "fish in a barrel", not in English - they'd be likely to say something like "a barrelfull of fish", the same way they say " a barrelfull of monkeys". Unless the original phrase might not have been English at all, but imported along with the fish from some country where that way of putting it might be more natural. Norway? The Netherlands? Germnay? Or some community in the USA where that speech pattern might have been carried over at he start of the last century. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Nov 04 - 07:23 PM McGrath Depends on what the emphasised object English people are thinking about when they start a phrase - if you are thinking about the 'fish' then it is a more natural way to think - if you are talking about 'the barrel' then 'barrel full of fish' is the more appropriate phrase. So depends on whether you are primarily interested in shooting barrels or fish..... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM Possibly, foolestroupe - but the analogous expressions "a barrel full of monkeys" and "a cartload of monkeys", where in both cases the emphasis is on the monkeys, suggests not. But my point was that the expression might not be an English (language) one at all. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:36 AM But the expression was Fish _IN_ a Barrel... so the emphasis is as I was suggesting on the Fish, so I think in all politeness, that you may have strayed, perhaps understandably so... :-), as I do not think that the 'monkeys' are analogous to fish.... ;-) being mischevious.... I agree, that it may not have originated in Modern English. About 50 languages have contributed to English. Did you know that in that famous oft quoted stirring fragment of Churchill's famous 'Fight them on the beaches' speech - all the words are descended from Old English - Saxon, except for one word - 'surrender' - which is (amusingly enough - taking into account centuries of English/French Political Interaction!) from the French.... :-) |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: GUEST,Carp in a Cobbler Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:21 AM "I think in all politeness, that you may have strayed..." Brilliant understatement, that. McGrath is just being his usual argumentative, stubborn and thick self here. He carries on like this to prove to himself that he couldn't possibly be one of the easiest targets in the tub. He believes himself to be much too brilliant for it. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: GUEST,Izaak Walton Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:57 AM Fish were (and still are in some ports) delivered to the quayside in barrels to be gutted by the fishwives. They are not humanely killed before this process is carried out, they are still wriggling in their final death throes. Obviously it would be extremely easy to shoot a fish in this condition, to put it out of its misery, but it would probably be prohibitively expensive ... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: GUEST,Carp in a Cobbler Date: 28 Nov 04 - 10:50 AM I believe we've already covered this. The saying is a euphemism/idiom for doing something so easy that success is guaranteed. The phrase 'sitting ducks' refers to an easy target. That isn't what the idiom being discussed here means. The saying 'shooting fish...' is about the ease with which something can be accomplished successfully. Another American phrase similar in meaning would be 'slam dunk'. This is the sort of thread that takes the joy right out of creative language use... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM "Shooting sitting ducks", "hitting the barn wall", "falling off a log" - those are easy things to do. Shooting fish swimming around in a barrel - that would be remarkably difficult. So, the puzzle is, how come the fanciful image for doing something very easy is to do something that would probably be extremely hard to do? It seems to me there must be a story behind this. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: GUEST,Carp in a Cobbler Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:50 AM Here is one that applies especially to you McGrath: 'One cannot put a quart in a pint cup.' |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: *Laura* Date: 28 Nov 04 - 02:22 PM someone mentioned the 'taking candy from a baby' thing. Have you ever tried to take candy from a baby? Obviously the person who made up the expression hadn't!!! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:23 PM Actually, the concussion produced by the shot (shotgun, or any calibre rifle except maybe something of a very light load like a .22 'cap') hitting the water at a distance of a couple of feet above the water would most likely kill any and all fish in the barrel, no matter how fast they were swimming. If we were talking about a half inch or larger old fashioned calibre musket or pistol, game over... Of course if you are only thinking of a bow and arrow.... but I have always associated this expression with firearms. Navy Mine Clearance Divers know that only James Bond can swim fast enough to get far enough away from the explosion to survive... Dropping standard hand grenades over the side of a warship will seriously upset any divers trying to lay mines under the keel... :-) Keep it up McGrath, I'm on your side... :-) Always enjoy the intellectual stimulation. Obviously some of the GUEST contributors to this thread are w*****s... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: CarolC Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:39 PM I think if you have a barrel with water and enough fish in it that the fish are crowded but still swimming, it would be pretty easy to hit more than one fish with each shot, even if you were using bullets and not shot pellets. So in that case, the phrase would be an apt one, I think. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: CarolC Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM ...and of course, if you just had one or two relatively large fish in the barrel, not so big that they couldn't swim, but maybe large enough that they wouldn't be inclined to want to swim, taking aim and shooting them while they remained relatively still would probably produce successful results fairly easily. I would be almost willing to bet that someone, somewhere has tried this at least once. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Cluin Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM Water makes a pretty good bullet-stopper though. If the fish were on the bottom... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: CarolC Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:50 PM What if you shoot them with a harpoon? ;-) |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Cluin Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:13 PM Or a Howitzer? Or a camera? |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM This thread is getting silly.... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM ya' gotta be VERY careful |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:37 PM how to do it if the FISH are not armed |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:46 AM This thread is getting VERY silly indeed... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: GUEST Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:34 AM I thought it was about Marillion |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Rapparee Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:09 AM Far more than you ever wanted to know about the word "barrel." Could it be that the expression has nothing at all to do with guns, but refers to "shooting" fish into a barrel? That is, perhaps sliding them quickly down a chute and into a barrel where the fish were salted or packed? I don't know, but this usage would go along with "shooting pool" or "shooting golf" and it would be a simple task to do. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Paco Rabanne Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:59 AM I would prefer to hunt them with hounds. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: CarolC Date: 29 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM ...and then send the marmoset after them when they get treed, super ted? |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: GUEST Date: 29 Nov 04 - 01:59 PM God, save us from the literal minded. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:27 PM The speculation continues, with occasional rude noises off. "Taking candy from a baby" - that's a good point Laura made. But at least that sounds easy, to people who haven't had much to do with babies. The image of shooting fish in a barrel is so strange that I am sure it must come from some specific source, for example a story, or some daft local activity. Perhaps a sideshow at a fair? Like the sideshow Billy the Bus reminded us of - "One I recall also had a tub of turbulent water, with numbered ducks bobbing about on the surface. That was the tricky one." As he said, that's something that is very tricky, but it might look easy to many people. Like shooting fish in a barrel, indeed. If you ran a stall at a fair like that you'd probably get quite a lot of takers, and take quite a lot of their money. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: PoppaGator Date: 29 Nov 04 - 02:56 PM At the risk of repeating myself, I *never* pictured water in the barrel when I heard this common expression (which includes no mention of water, BTW) -- nor did I envision a single fish. I always pictured a barrel full of fish, just as described by "Isaac Walton" yesterday morning at 9:57. Is this somehow related to my native language being American English? So it would seem. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: GUEST,Fish ado about nothing Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:22 PM I don't get what McGrath is on about either. Why would it be difficult again? Because you'd make a hole in the wooden barrel? So what? The phrase is not "like shooting fish in a barrel without making a hole in the barrel." The point is, there are several easy images (like Mr. Walton's) that adequately explain why shooting fish in a barrel would be easy. McGrath just dismisses or ignores them all. Similarly, it would be really easy to tke candy from a baby, if you don't care about hurting the baby. Not that I'm cruel, just that I can easily see the logic in this expression. And what has this got to do with a "barrel of monkeys"? In the latter case, it's the great number of monkeys that makes it fun (which I never quite understood, by the way). So it's the fact that it's a whole barrel of monkeys that makes it fun. With fish in a barrel, whether you have one fish in the bottom of an empty barrel, or a barrel chock full of fish, it would be easy to shoot the fish, if you don't worry about making a hole in the barrel. Thus it is shooting fish (one or many), not shooting the barrel of fish, that is easy. But it is the quantity of monkeys (a barrel of them) that is fun. Got it, people? Good! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: GUEST Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM But you COULD, if you were so inclined, actually make it difficult to shoot fish in a barrel. Ahhh, therein lies the rub. What if the guy who first used the expression as if it were easy, actually had ulterior motives to make it difficult?? Gotcha there!! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Shooting fish in a barrel'?? From: Charley Noble Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:25 PM I think the question that McGrath poses is "a barrel of fun." Now some may think he's got us "over a barrel" but I'm sure someone can put a stopper to it or bung it up, so to speak. I vote for the carnival origin. Cheerily, Charley Noble |