Tech: Demystify basic mixing

Subject: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: sharyn
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 11:23 PM

I am sure there are plenty of threads on this subject, but I could not find any of them in several searches.

I am recording my first CD and my engineer is beginning to mix it. I do not know how to talk to him about the sound I want (and don't want). I am usually an articulate person.

Could someone give me a basic vocabulary of mixing terms (or a reference to one) such as "EQ" "compression" "reverb," etc? to supplement my native vocabulary of "brightness," "edge," "guts," etc.?

I would also appreciate references to good threads on similar subjects.

Thanks,

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:22 AM

musiciansarchive.com/articles/mixing/mixing_mixing.htm

that might be ok ?

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:25 AM

clicky dont work !??

try again..


http://musiciansarchive.com/articles/mixing/mixing_mixing.htm

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:33 AM

If you can't seem to explain to your mixing engineer what sound you want, try bringing in CDs you like the sound of and asking him, "Can you make the (vocals/guitar/whatever) sound more like this?"

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: treewind
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:58 AM

Those links contain some terrific advice (thanks!), but they're for the mixing engineer more than for the would-be producer who wants to describe the sound he wants. Certainly some good ideas there - I'll be bookmarking that one.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: sharyn
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:40 AM

Thanks, punkfolkrocker and Micheal R. The link was helpful and I will do more reading on that site. I am an acoustic musician, however, and it did seem a bit focused on bands and heavy instruments (drums, bass). My tracks are a capella vocals, vocals with simple guitar accompaniment, vocals with guitar and banjo, a few harmony tracks here and there.

My biggest problem is that I like the raw vocals and I hate them when they are mixed: in the raw, I sound like me, with a lot of dynamic range and tone color -- there is a vibrance and "edge" to the vocals that I like. When the tracks are mixed, I sound like a Barbie doll and all of the excitement has been blah-ed out of the performance.

I hesitate to bring in other recordings because I have very wide tastes within the acoustic music spectrum and I don't want to sound like anyone else -- I want to sound like the best of me.

Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Nick
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 11:25 AM

"My biggest problem is that I like the raw vocals and I hate them when they are mixed: in the raw, I sound like me, with a lot of dynamic range and tone color -- there is a vibrance and "edge" to the vocals that I like. When the tracks are mixed, I sound like a Barbie doll and all of the excitement has been blah-ed out of the performance."

I would say that that is as clear as a bell as to what the problem is.

The guy mixing it should understand exactly what you mean from that - he in turn should have the technical ability to make it NOT sound like that. I wouldn't have thought that you have to say to him 'I think you have over compressed the vocal and you need to boost the low mids blah blah blah'. That's his job!

I went to a studio with a friend and played a bit of bass on a couple of tracks and found it very hard to answer the question that the engineer asked me when he said 'and how exactly do you want the bass to sound?' because I'd never really thought about it! (I think 'nice' was what I really wanted :)!!) So I left him to it.

You, however, seem to know EXACTLY what you are trying to achieve - ie what you described above - and he should have the tools to do it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 11:37 AM

A Classic quote from a (NOT very Folkie Sound Engineer) to a friend of mine who complained that the Instruments were too prominent :-

" But The VOCAL will be SO exposed !"
   
   And my friend always thought THE SONG was what mattered !

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:09 PM

There ya go! Tell him you want the vocals highly exposed!

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:32 PM

Is there someone you could take in with you as a kind of "Executive Producer"? I can't see that discussing things across the internet will help - we can't hear where your starting from, let alone where you want to go!

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:49 PM

Is your mixing engineer experienced with acoustic music? From your description it sounds like overcompression. You probably don't need any compression at all. You may need to enlist somebody with some experence in the acoustic arena to produce or take over the mixing duties.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: sharyn
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:38 PM

Thanks everybody,

Yes, it does help discussing it on the internet because it gives me other language, like "exposing the vocal."

I see this as a communication issue, because the engineer did a beautiful job of recording my vocals with all the nuances and my quirky (and very quiet) guitar-playing. He has recorded acoustic music, folk music, rock and roll and God knows what else. And, until we got into mixing he was supportive and enthusiastic about my musical choices.

In a live poll of musician friends, someone else had suggested that the problem was overcompression and it is helpful to me that one of you suggested that here -- sort of like getting a second medical opinion.

I still think it wouldn't hurt for me to have a basic understanding of terms and processes. Can someone recommend an ABC of mixing or a basic text at not too high a level? I like to learn things.

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:55 PM

I second JeffP's comments--and Nick is exactly on the money--you do know exactly what you want! The person who is mixing it either can't or won't give it to you--

Most pop music is created in the editing, with the ultimate goal being to replicate whatever the sound of the moment is--what you want is for the recording to capture your sound, which can actually be a lot harder. Be prepared to deal with the possibility that your engineer doesn't know how to do what you want--you may need to find someone else--

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 02:37 PM

Remember that somebody who is a great tracking engineer is not necessarily a great mixing engineer. Frequently the tracking, mixing and mastering will be done by three different people, often at different facilities. There are different skill sets required for all three functions.

As far as not wanting to sound like anybody else, that is fine. What you are looking for in an example for your engineer is a treatment that you are trying to replicate. In other words, you are looking for a similarity in the overall feel of the sound quality (dynamic range, eq, presence, things like that). Try to find a couple of CDs, or even individual tracks that have the sound quality that you are looking for. My guess is that you want a transparency that lets the performance shine through with full dynamic range and allows the song to speak for itself.

If I had more experience, I would offer to work with you myself, but I'm just getting started with my own home recording projects. Best of luck. If you want any translation from recorderese to English, I'll be happy to help - just PM me.

In the meantime, Home Recording for Dummies has been a good resource for me. It might be helpful to you in learning the language and getting some idea of what certain effects will do to your sound.

Jeff

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 06:03 PM

I'd say jeffp's a pretty smart guy.

If you like working with this engineer and want him to do this phase of the work, listen to the other ACOUSTIC acts you mention he has recorded. It should be pretty simple: if you like the way one of them sounds, and the music is comparable to what you're doing, tell him that's what you're after. If you really don't like the final sound of any of them, that's a pretty big tipoff that while he did a great job on the recording, someone else would be better to mix & master (or, combine his expertise on the qualities of the recorded tracks with someone else's skills at the mixing board, this can work quite well if the someone else is both technically conversant and able to understand what you're getting at).

I wouldn't worry too much about wanting your own sound. If the sound you make is unique, it won't come out the other end sounding like Brittney, will it? But it's key to have someone who really understands natural acoustic sound, starting with an understanding of the kind of music you're making.

Best of luck, I'm sure it will work out.

W-O

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 06:10 PM

Often the biggest problem is at the recording stage... some engineers insist on processing the sound as it is recorded... which is fine for pop music and the like, which will be heavily compressed to make the maximum noise so it comes out of the radio at a homogenised level....

When I'm recording I like to record totally 'flat' with no compression or reverb, etc., because that gives me a totally blank canvas to mix down afterwards - as if I'm still working with the performer. You can add stuff, but you can't take it away once it's recorded. If you follow my drift?

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Bert
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 08:41 PM

According to this its nine parts gin and one Vermouth.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 08:58 PM

Thanks, Willie-O. I learned a lot from reading at the Home Recording BBS here.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 09:08 PM

I think the advice to WORK WITH the person you've chosen to work "for" you is sound. A way to get where you are trying to go might be to have a talk with that person and ask HIM to teach you the vocab to go with what you want. You would both learn a lot.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: sharyn
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 11:32 PM

Thank you everybody. I'll look up the Dummies book. My comment about wanting to sound like me only means that I have a distinctive voice (vibrato, unsmoothed break, lots of over- and undertones). My engineer has captured this very well in the raw tracks, which sound like me and please me, but his mix alters my tone, timbre and use of dynamics, which dismays me greatly.

Now, you engineering types, can I have an unmixed CD? I mean, can I just use the raw tracks -- no EQ, no reverb, no compression, no fooling? Sort of like a live recording? Is this against the law? Does it make your ears cringe to think of it? Please tell me -- I am new to this sound recording stuff and I think I want the plainest, rawest, truest sound I can get.

Thank you for all your patience and consideration and knowledge

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 04:14 AM

You can keep any recording just as raw as you want. If you like the sound of the initial play-back, then just use that. No EQ (tone control) reverb (echo) compression (boosting the middle) or other effects are necessary. Some radio stations will choose not to play it because it'll sound somewhat strange (to them) alongside the rest of their output - but don't let that stop you!

The only thing you need to do is decide how loud each track, and each track, should be.

And by that I mean a) the relative volumes of your voice against the other instruments (and here you can just lean over and turn the other tracks up or down using the faders until you're happy) - and b) how loud each song or tune is alongside its neighbour.

For this you'll need to use a combination of your ears and whatever visual guide the studio has - ppl, vu etc - so that the listener won't have to keep lurching for the volume control.

But is there a another problem? When you say you liked the raw vocal - do you mean the sound you heard in your headphones when you actually sang, rather than the initial playback of the recording? Because if the playback was not to your liking, then the chances are that, as you sang, you were hearing your voice on the way IN to the recorder rather than on the way OUT. That suggests that he's using a good mic, but not a good recorder, so some frequencies are lost on the tape or disc.

But that's unlikely these days - so I assume you mean that you don't like the mix after he's fiddled about with the knobs for a while - in which case, see above.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 05:29 AM

The local library has been a wonderful resource for me to find out some stuff about Home Recording (which has the same sorts of issues albeit without the expensive equipment).

If you have something similar near you you may find it similarly helpful.

There was a very helpful book called 'Making the Ultimate Demo' which was based around articles from (I think) Electronic Musician which I found very useful and various others about Home Recording (I think it's 621.3893 in the good old Dewey Decimal system somewhere near radio equipment and electronics)

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: sharyn
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 08:53 AM

Thank you, Tom Bliss. That helps. Most of my recording was done without headphones (I only used them to add the occasional harmony track). The sound that I like is on rough CDs the engineer made from playback. The sound I don't like showed up when he began mixing the raw tracks. I will talk to him today (two more songs to record). I suspect the problem might be that whatever he is doing to mix the instrumental bits is skewing my vocals -- I play a very soft six-string guitar: he uses two mikes to catch it and there is some bleed between my vocal and guitar mikes.

Thanks again, everybody. If you are interested, I'll post the continuing sage until it is resolved.

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:05 AM

"if the playback was not to your liking, then the chances are that, as you sang, you were hearing your voice on the way IN to the recorder rather than on the way OUT"

Well... the first time you hear your voice from a recorder of any type, it's a bit of a shock! Wonder WHY some singers cup a hand over an ear? It's because the sound that you 'hear' in your head when you sing is very different from what the outside world 'hears'. By cupping the hand over the ear, some of the external 'sound' is reflected back and you can hear yourself more like what the world 'hears' you. (And if you don't like that...) It also allows some of us to 'find pitch', especially if singing ion a group, faster and more spot on, among other things.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: JohnB
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 10:23 AM

Why don't you get your engineer to give you the same track twice on one cd. First time how you like it, second time how he likes it.
Play it to ten or so friends (or not) and get their opinions. Like the above post says, when you hear yourself recorded you don't always think that is you.
JohnB.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 03:35 PM

My guess is that the engineer is processing the sound, because that's how he thinks it should be. Have you tried doing the mix with him? As opposed to him doing something and sending it to you, I mean.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 03:45 PM

has he just bought some new studio audio-processing toys to play with ?

[bloody aural exciters and enhancers !]

..if so, you'll probably have to wait until the novelty wares off
before he can do an objective job again

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Bert
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 03:47 PM

Start with the raw recording and only change what obviously needs changing.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 04:10 PM

Sharyn,

Thanks all to heck for starting this thread! :) First time I've been able to pop by, and there are SCADS of useful info already.

(Do a lot of the rest of you pretty much do your own engineering, or entrust that phase to a geek professional technician?)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: jeffp
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 04:14 PM

I'm planning to do my own, so I'm learning as much as I can to prepare. Fortunately, for the type of music most of us here do, less is more when it comes to audio processing.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 06:58 PM

Yes jeffp, Phil Spector and his 'Wall of Sound' has much to answer for!

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: sharyn
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 10:04 PM

The sequel: I went back to the studio today to record two songs (only got through one) and had decided I wouldn't bring up the mixing issue just yet, But, as he was setting up microphones for me, my engineer said, "What did you think of the mixes?"

I said, "I was quite distressed." I told him a little about my listening process, the notes I took, my opinions. He was totally cool with it -- he said, "Oh, O.K. Well, if you like the raw tracks we'll look at those again and try to keep the mix close to that." Turns out I had misunderstood him -- I thought he was going for final product and he was just giving me somrthing to bounce my opinions off of. Oh. He drew the distinction that I like good performances and that another singer of our mutual acquaintance likes things that sound good on recordings. Ah. Maybe I'll eventually make it to liking performances that also sound good on recordings, but right now I care more about the nuances of the vocals than anything else. He is happy to make mixes that I like better. (I THOUGHT I had completely given up being a drama queen, but I suppose I have more renunciation to do: chalk it up to first-time mixing anxieties).

To clarify a few points: he did the mix with me in the studio and I heard it once there, but he always gives me CDs of what we do to take home, listen to, play for friends, mull over, etc. It was when I heard it at home -- and every time I heard it -- that I had a meltdown.

Crisis averted. And, thanks to everybody here, I learned a few technical definitions and gathered a few resources, I am delighted that the discussion is proving useful to others as well.

Thank you all. I'll revive this thread if need be in future.

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: treewind
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 11:36 AM

One mark of a good producer/engineer is that he knows when to prefer a good performance with technical flaws over a boring one that's perfect.

Some mistakes can be fixed anyway, but no amount of digital processing will turn an uninspiring performance into a good one.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 12:38 PM

Aha yes! Playing the mix at home. Familiar problem! You may find that your home speakers are knocking a lot of the 'top' off the voice, and may also be boosting certain rogue frequencies - which could make the mix sound totally different to how it did in the studio.

Has your engineer got some cheap monitors for checking the mix? Speakers can make more difference to the sound of a recording than the effects used in the studio.

It's important that they use both top-range (for accuracy) and rubbish speakers (because many will be listening on cheap speakers - specially radios) to check the sound.

Then when he gives you a mix to take away, listen to it on as many different CD players as you can find: Car, walkman, beatbox, hi-fi - you'll be amazed by how some intruments appear or disappear. This is why people use compression and aural exciters etc. - so the music will sound kinda ok regardess of the system it's played through.

Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: Bernard
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 07:37 PM

It's also surprising how different it all sounds on 'cans' (headphones)!

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 08:51 PM

Sharyn

For all of us who aren't as sure of ourselves as others whi have posted here I think you have done a wonderful thing sharing your experience and I think it's great that it will have a positive outcome (because it will).

I think it was less about the technicalities of mixing than the experience of dealing with communicating disappointment to someone else for something that they have done that we don't totally understand but know is not what we wanted.

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 08:53 PM

Yes indeedeee. Actually, I confess: I can only bear to listen to my own voice on cans - because that's at least sort of what I hear when I'm actually singing. I feel quite ill when I hear myself though speakers, no matter how good, and am constantly amazed that anyone lets me sing in their club or fails to ask for their money back when they buy CDs!

But cans... ah! Then I can still believe!

Subject: RE: Tech: Demystify basic mixing
From: JohnB
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 05:48 PM

Yeah it's not just me, I sound a lot better in the "can" too.
JohnB (sorry about the bathroom humour)