Tune Req: Judas and Mary (Sydney Carter)

Subject: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:22 PM

Can anyone help me with the dots for this song please?

I'm trying to track them down for a school to use. Telling me what book they're in isn't really useful as they have no money to spend just for one song.

A scan of the music would be great, but even a melody line would be useful.

Thanks, on behalf of the school.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:38 PM

In Green Print for Song, along with another 19 of his songs.

PM me an address, and I'll stick a photocopy of the song in the post. (I know I should be able to scan it in and send it across via the Internet, but I'm not up to speed on this new computer I've got.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Dave Earl
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM

I used to sing this Liz.

My Elizabeth has a number of books published by Galliard of Sidney Carter stuff. Have you tried a web search? i think E bought her books via a website.

Dave

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:46 PM

Tried a web search.. .can get any number of versions of 'Lord of the Dance' but not the one I need.

Did you know that SC wrote a song called 'Down below' about the J Bazalgette London sewer system?

Thanks McGrath, I'll do that now.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Dave Earl
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:01 PM

A firm called Stainer and Bell now own the rights I think.

It was only earlier this year that Elizabeth got her books through the post.

When do you need the dots?

Dave

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:13 PM

In the envelope, and in the post in the morning.

And for anyone who's never heard the song, there's a mp3 link to it on this page

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:19 PM

It's not performed or published that often, which is why we're having difficulty getting the dots. Thanks McGrath, I owe you a pint or two.

It's a lovely song, tells the tale of the Magdalene washing the feet of Jesus before his crucifixion and the berating she gets from Judas who was the bursar for the disciples. He's worried about the cost and tells her she should have sold it to get money to feed the poor (and allegedly line Judas' own pocket) but Jesus tells him that the poor are always with us.

The tune sounds very traditional but I'm not sure if it is.

Thanks again.

LTS

Subject: Tune Add: JUDAS AND MARY (Sydney Carter)
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 06:26 PM

Here's a quick go at the tune from the mp3 linked above. (I could put in chords if you want)

Mick

---

X: 1
T:Judas And Mary
M:3/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=138
A:Sydney Carter
C:Sydney Carter
K:EAeo
B,|E B B|B A G|G F E|E2
w:Said Ju-das to Ma-ry now what will you do
E/F/|G G G|A G A|B3|z2
w:With your oint-ment so rich and so rare
E|E B B|B A G|G F E|E2
w:I'll pour it all ov-er the feet of the Lord
E/F/|G G G|F E D|E2 D|B,3|z2
w:And I'll wipe it a-way with my hair, she said
E/F/|G G G|F E D|E3-|E2||
w:I will wipe it a-way with my hair_

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 12:05 AM

Thanks Mick, but it has to be dots that a non-guitar player can read... it's the melody we're stuck on!

LTS

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:13 AM

That is the melody!

Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:20 AM

Copy everythin from the initial X to the final underscore _ in the tune post, Go to Concertina Net Converter and paste it into the box and press the Submit button to see the score. (This has nothing to do with guitarists, who read the same dots as everyone else)

Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 08:22 AM

G'day Mick ...

Well, it is an interesting sort of (closeish) harmony line to Sydney Carter's tune - but it's not the melody I heard Sydney sing ... and learned to play, from the book: Songs of Sydney Carter, In the present tense, book 1, Galliard, Great Yarmouth, 1969 ... (and that's apart from the change of time signature from 6/8 to 3/4 ... thus changing quavers into crotchets, &c.)

I should post the abc for Sydney Carter's version.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: Tune Add: JUDAS AND MARY (Sydney Carter)
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:20 AM

G'day again Mick,

Well - I can see why you have changed to 3/4 ... it needs to be a very slow 6/8 to come out at the song's right tempo from the Galliard transcription! (And I find I fall somewhere between your posting and the 'dots' in the Galliard book for the second group of 3 notes at the start of each line.)

Ah well, it was back in 1971 that I heard Sydney sing this ... and around 1977 I actually played it on a melody instrument (a Bb fife, that was in my hiking pack, a couple of days into the Cradle Mt National Park, Tasmania!).

This is how the old ("No longer supported by Mudcat") Alan of Oz MIDItext app renders the ABC component:

ABC format:

X:1

T:

M:6/8

Q:1/4=75

K:C

B,6|EBBBBB|AG^FEE^F|G^FGAGA|B5B,|EBBBAG|^FG^FE2E/2^F/2|

G3/2G/2G^FED|E2DB,3|G3/2G/2G^FA^F|E15/4||

Incidentally, when I try to use the Concertina.net converter ... I get my key of 'G' music written in 'C' - with sharpened Fs ... and one note that seems to pop up one octave! I don't think the fault is in the Cancertina.net - more likely in the elderly MIDItext app.

Have fun with it (before Stainer & Bell come round demanding all songs of Sydney Carter be removed, lest it compromise their claims for royalties on tunes he never claimed to have written!)

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:36 AM

sounds a bit like the melody Henry Martin - which if I can remember 40 years ago to the days when Joan Baez ruled, we used to do with dminor and A7

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:40 AM

Sydney Carter didn't worry much about changing notes and time signatures or words of his songs when he sang them. He was one man folk process that way.

That photocopy with words, music, and Sydney's thoughts about the song are now in the post.

Subject: Tune Add: JUDAS AND MARY (Sydney Carter)
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:59 PM

Bob

Your tune is not very different from the tune I transcribed (allowing for the different note lengths - I did consider 6/8 when I listened to the recording, but 3/4 seemed better!). I was just on my way to bed when I did the transcription last night and I didn't check it very carefully, but it should be close to what was on the recording.

I'd rewrite your transcription more like this:

X:1
T:
M:6/8
Q:1/4=75
K:EAeo
B,6|EBB BBB|AGF EEF|GFG AGA|B3-B2
B,|EBB BAG|FGF E2
E/F/|G>GG FED|E2D B,3|
G>GG FAF|E3-E3/4||

(for clarity only - I haven't changed any note lengths) The note lengths in the 1st and last bars don't look correct, but it will go through Concertina Net's converter OK.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 09:15 PM

G'day Mick,

I'm sure I sounded far too certain that there was anything like a "correct" version. When I listened to your tune, I thought there were differences from what is in my mind ... then, when I set down the 'dots' from the Galliard book - I discovered almost as many differences!

I should never regard any setting by book publishers as authoritative - especially for someone like Sydney Carter who memorably entitled his poetry book "Nothing Fixed or Final"! Wherever he performed, when he came to Australia in 1971, he made it clear that he was happy to hear whatever anyone did, in good faith, to his songs.

It's a great pity that his work is now in the hands of publisher diametrically opposed to his generous attitude.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:01 AM

Ain't that the truth Bob.... practically nothing available online that isn't Lord of the Dance....

LTS

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 07:42 AM

G'day Liz,

Yes ... and, of course, Sydney Carter freely acknowledged that the tune he set to his Lord of the Dance lyrics was the Shaker Hymn 'Tis a Gift to be Simple ... composed (or "received") by a Shaker man in (~) 1848.

Apparently S & B have been claiming royalties - despite the fact that the Irish Dance show did not use his lyrics, only the Quaker hymn tune - and the title "Lord of the Dance", but that's not copyright text; just a title - a "trade description". The mean attitude to allowing access to Sydney's lyrics (and, thus, affirming their 'copyright' ... not "trad." ... status only serves to make it more likely that his material will be increasingly mis-attributed ... and S & B will have more legal costs - and/or less royalties!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Lanfranc
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 07:54 AM

I'm fairly sure that I have it at home in a book called "Faith, Folk and Clarity". If I'm right, I will dig it out, scan it into a PDF and email it to you Liz. I am pretty sure that it is just the melody line and guitar chords.

Alan

Subject: Tune Add: JUDAS AND MARY (Sydney Carter)
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 09:08 AM

Hi Bob

I'm sure your version from the book should be some sort of definitive version!

I just had another listen to the linked track (Martyn Joseph singing) and it's more or less as I had it, with a couple of notes wrong in the ante-penultimate bar.

X: 1
T:Judas And Mary
M:3/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=138
A:Sydney Carter
C:Sydney Carter
K:EAeo
B,|E B B|B A G|G F E|E2
w:Said Ju-das to Ma-ry now what will you do
E/F/|G G G|A G A|B3|z2
w:With your oint-ment so rich and so rare
E|E B B|B A G|G F E|E2
w:I'll pour it all ov-er the feet of the Lord
E/F/|G G G|F E D|E2 D|B,3|z2
w:And I'll wipe it a-way with my hair, she said
E/F/|G G G|F G F|E3-|E2||
w:I will wipe it a-way with my hair_


So presumably he changed it a bit too.

By the looks of it Liz will have two photocopies as well as your transcription to work from - should be enough! (I only did it from the recording to give her some lead time on McGofH's letter).

Best wishes
Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:15 PM

Dots received today and passed on, many thanks, McGrath.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:14 PM

"Definitive version" - no such animal for a Sydney Carter song.

"That word final worries me. There is nothing final in the songs I write, not even the words, the rhythym and the melody. This is not an oversight; I would like them to keep on growing, like a tree. They have a form, I hope; so does a tree. But it is not fixed and final. It must develop acoording to the time and place..." (From introduction to Green Print for Song.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:25 PM

That's a good attitude. It's how I'd feel if I wrote songs - I wouldn't mind how people used them, but it's not how all songwriters feel. I've come across some whose position is that they've worked hard to get the words (words usually rather than tune) the way they want them and don't want singers to change them.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 10:23 PM

G'day Mick (& McGrath),

You'll note that I mentioned: "Sydney Carter who memorably entitled his poetry book "Nothing Fixed or Final"! Wherever he performed, when he came to Australia in 1971, he made it clear that he was happy to hear whatever anyone did, in good faith, to his songs.

I guess that I always think it's a courtesy to look first at the author's original version ... but this experience suggests that the published arrangement - culled by the publisher's musical arrangers from the very free performance of Sydney Carter may not be all that "definitive" ... or even "accurate"!

Whatever you do ... keep singing his great songs ... and let S & B descend to wherever they belong!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 11:32 AM

"It's a lovely song, tells the tale of the Magdalene washing the feet of Jesus before his crucifixion..."

I attended a course on the history of the Bible, and our priest mentioned this story. There is no reason to think that the woman (apparently a harlot or other low-life) who came in and washed Jesus' feet was Mary Magdalene. Just because MM is mentioned by name a few chapters later is no reason to assume the two women are the same person.

Medieval scholars, influenced by centuries of misogyny, jumped to that conclusion. But there is no reason to think that MM was anything other than one of the disciples.


So enjoy the song, Squeak, but be aware that all in it is not what it seems.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 02:58 PM

"Tells the tale" doesn't necessarily imply historical accuracy, just that it's a pre-existent story which is being retold.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 04:07 PM

Off the subject but whatever happened to St. Joseph? I must have heard but can't remember. Is there a point at which we know Mary was widowed? mg

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: GUEST,Guest: myoho
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 10:06 AM

Hallo,

I used to sing this song at high school back in the mid -70's. We learned it from the "20th century folk hymnal". I know the melody and chords, albeit a bit different from the mp3 link I listened too, but does anyone have the full lyrics, or know where to find them?
thanks
Myoho

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 10:31 AM

Lyrics are available at a few places. Try here: Judas And Mary

Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: GUEST,Ian Pittaway
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:15 PM

Mick, it's right, of course, that Sydney encouraged others to shift and change his songs, as he did himself. I notice, though, that the link above changes Sydney's original *meaning* as well as his words. The change in the final two verses takes us from Sydney's original immanent eschatology (Jesus is present now in the needy if only we have eyes to see) to a very different future eschatology (Jesus will literally return). None of Sydney's writings or lyrics suggest this kind of theology. I'm not a believer myself - though I think Sydney's writing was fantastic - but I think this fundamental change should be noted.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: GUEST,Ian Pittaway
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:16 PM

... and the person who's changed it hasn't even made the changes rhyme!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:58 PM

Ian - sorry I don't know the song - that was just one of the sites I came across earlier. Is this version correct then: Judas And Mary? (If it is, I see what you mean about the change in the ending).

Mick

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:31 PM

The first two lines of the last verse should be:

My body will hang on the cross of the world
Tomorrow, he said, AND today.

rather than not, which Sydney himself attributes to a printers error.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: GUEST,Ian Pittaway
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 03:55 PM

Mick, yes, the words in the link you give are those I'm familiar with from Sydney's own works. BTW, thanks weelittledrummer: the tune to this song has always reminded me of a trad tune, but I've never figured out which one - Henry Martin!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 05:11 PM

Sydney Carter:

This song is unique in one respect; I have hardly changed a note or a word of it since the first time it was written. Printers have,however. Instead of

"My body will
Hang on the cross of the world
Tomorrow" He said "And today."

they have printed "not" instead of "and".

I agree with Ian in being sure that Sydney would not have liked those last two verses in the first version Mick Pearce linked to. The song he wrote implied Jesus returning in a sense, but not that sense.

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 03:07 AM

I always felt that it implied he'd never totally go away... just like the poor.

To me it also stood as a lesson in piety. You can decorate statues, annoint yourself (and others) with oil, make this grand show of being deferential to Pastors and Priests; when in fact, it's the little deeds that you do for the poor, unclean and forgotten people that mean more to Jesus the person.

One act of kindness is worth more than any oil of nacre or gold or silver.

LTS

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: GUEST,Ian Pittaway
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 06:06 AM

Liz, that's beautiful!

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Said Judas to Mary - Sydney Carter
From: GUEST,myoho
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 09:38 AM

Dear Mick

thanks, just the lyrics I needed!
myoho

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Judas and Mary (Sydney Carter)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Apr 24 - 05:22 PM

Here's the whole thing:
https://hymnary.org/text/said_judas_to_mary#pagescans

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Judas and Mary (Sydney Carter)
From: The Doctor
Date: 02 Apr 24 - 10:37 AM

My copy, words and music, is in a book entitled 'New Life: Songs and Hymns for Assemblies, Clubs and Churches It was published by Galliard in 1971 and was a very useful collection when I was teaching. There is at least one copy on ebay:
.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256231967952?itmmeta=01HTFKASQ6ZNAVZZ6Y6G2XMQHB&hash=item3ba89d8cd0:g:kScAAOSwyWdlEVlB