This site is NOT like all the rest.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:02 PM

2:54 PM - Thank you for those words.

Believe me, I,(and I suspect many another "regular" here ) regret if ever I have offended the casual guest or those whose intent is benign because we are irritated with the MudCats very own gadfly.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 03:45 PM

Well said, Guest 14-Aug-01 - 02:54PM.

"Dysfunctional" is a self-help buzzword, and it has a great deal of the weasel word about it too. It is often used, for instance, by Al-Anon members, to describe the families of other Al-Anon members. Or by people who are having a hard time coping with life to describe their family of origin.

As used by Guest 13-Aug-01 - 10:27 AM, Guest 13-Aug-01 - 11:09 AM, Guest 13-Aug-01 - 11:26 AM, and Guest 13-Aug-01 - 12:28 PM, however, it is merely slander.

What I wonder is that if these guests really think this place is so "dysfunctional", why do they stick around? They are "enabling" us and by so doing, are part of the problem and not the solution. They're "co-dependent".

Alex

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM

I think guests who complain about always being flamed because they're a guest long enough to irritate people who then flame them because of what they say, NOT because they're a guest, then act like the injured party are sorta disfunctional.

Then they start loads of threads, with a chip placed squarely on their shoulder. Its SO obvious. It gives the rest of us who are really just trying to get along without cookies a bad name. Or a bad non-name.

I think that the guest who keeps complaining about being abused is just looking for attention. And he seems to be in here all the time.

How many times does a person have to say hit me before they realize they have a problem. And how come they like hanging out in a place they seem to hate. It's just WEIRD.

I like this place a lot and even tho I can't come to Mudcat very often nobody ever made me feel bad here until this guest made every thread hes in to be about HIM. And everybody still keeps fighting with him and that's like beating up somebody who wants you to beat him up and it's weird too.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:48 PM

MMario

I can agree that some dysfunctional behaviors may be symptomatic of underlying mental illness.

That is a far cry from what Mousethief was suggesting.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:26 PM

uhmmm- guest? many dysfunctional behaviors are symptomatic of mental illness. At least that is what the medical, and educational systems keep telling the general public. Have they lied to us?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:25 PM

You need to educate yourself more about the distinctions between dysfunctional behaviors and mental illness apparently.

Ah, more politeness. Thanks for telling us which side you fall on, Guest. You are obviously just as dysfunctional as the rest of us.

Alex

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:09 PM

Just as an experiment why don't you try recasting the whole discussion from the point of view of an established white community reacting to the concerns of a young black female who is feeling that she is not welcome despite being intelligent and polite. (sophocleese)

I like thought experiments - but I don't see this one as working.

"I don't like some things about this place" is different from "There are things about this place which make it specially hard for people with these characteristics..." Such as being black, or old, or male or female and so on. And I haven't seen anything like that being mentioned.

Noone is complaining that they are being discriminated about for some reason analogous to those, so far as I can see. It's more as if there were people complaining that a folk club or a festival was discriminating about people with beards - but I've got a beard and half the other people there have, and we all seem to be accepted without any problem. So there must be something else that's the problem. But what is it supposed to be?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 01:06 PM

Neither Alex.

Dysfunctional behaviors aren't a mental illness. My definition of dysfunctional behaviors are behaviors which change and move across the spectrum of "normal" behaviors, based upon the perceived behaviors of others. The perceptions are sometimes correct, sometimes distorted.

Unsound reasoning is not a mental illness.

Oversensitivity to feelings is not a mental illness.

You need to educate yourself more about the distinctions between dysfunctional behaviors and mental illness apparently.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:50 PM

For some, if you suggest their reasoning is not right, it is every bit as offensive to them as it is to those who are offended when their feelings are invalidated

So when you say they're dysfunctional, which is it? That's saying there is something wrong with THEM, with their mental health, not that they are reasoning improperly in a particular instance.

Physician, heal thyself.

Alex

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:47 PM

Peter, who's proposing a purely music site? Not me that's for sure.

Don't make too much of the healing circle. It is merely an example of where things have gone wrong. One of the unresolved issues with the healing circle and the main one I am trying to address with my suggestion is one of volume although courtesy does come into it to. It doesn't take much to work out what would happen if everyone started these things and we have several of the threads running - that seems to me to be where the trouble comes in. Some people of course do not post these threads because of that reason. There may be several other areas where volume could be a problem and an irritation to many who don't normally raise objections to BS. I would hope that what I am offering is a practical solution to such problems as well as perhaps allow others to develop new areas.

As for needs, the most basic of all is courtesy, it is rather better than the "if you don't like it f*** off" atitude that whether you like it or not tends to be given more from certain members of this forum than others. This in itself provides good reason for feelings over a dominating heirarchy and provokes some of the nasty behavoiur from others.

You mentioned Max's design as a reason for this place being like it is. Is it unreasonable for someone else to suggest that the same design MAY be in part responsible for the "pure music" and the BSers not getting on? I realise it won't change and we have to make do with what we have but I still consider my opinion valid and only an opinion, I have not proposed any such change.

Re starting another music forum, it could be done (not by me) but I don't see that solving anything. Perhaps one day, it will happen if too many people leave but there are good reasons for people to remain here.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:46 PM

Peter T,

With all due respect, I find your ideas a bit too fatalistic for my sensibilities.

I find they also disregard the possibilities of changing both the group dynamic and/or the group consensus.

I seem to recall you are one who believes the group dynamic at Mudcat hasn't changed since it's inception? Or was it that you suggested there was no golden age? Whatever the case, I don't think the impulse to make the forum a better, more enjoyable, inclusive forum is a waste of time.

Many here may have sensed the dysfunctional group dynamics being discussed in these threads, but not been able to articulate their perceptions in such a way as to be easily understood by others. That is why having conversations like this is important. Before we can change a group dynamic, we first need to know what the dynamic is, and understand how it works.

Some of us appreciate the insights and perceptions both members and guests are feeling emboldened enough to share in these threads. It feels to me like a long-overdue airing of the house after a long, stagnant, suffocating period with all the doors and windows closed.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:05 PM

Jon: in no order. What are these needs you speak of that are not being addressed? And how are they to be addressed? The only two that seem to have come up here that we can deal with, not being professional psychiatrists, are whether or not this should be a purely music site, to make some people more comfortable; and whether or not we should have healing or prayer threads. We have been through these arguments a hundred times. The desire for a wideopen site to discuss anything people with a folk music bent think is interesting has won this argument over and over again. There is tons of music here, and other things. If someone wants an alternative, set one up. This is a cafe. You are free to come and go as you will.

The prayer threads. We have been through this many, many times in the spirit of compromise you keep invoking. As a compromise, based on the desire for openness tempered with the fact that some people get offended by too much religiosity or whatver (I don't) means that alternatives have been generated. Perhaps yours will be the most successful in this. In the meantime, people who are in real trouble seem to get what little help is possible from the carers around here. It is only a web site after all.

Beyond that, what are the needs that can be reasonably met? Some people think that the regulars are a dominating hierarchy that are stifling them. O.K. What can one propose? Propose away. Do you want certain people to only post on Tuesdays and Thursdays? I don't think so. Do you want people to always be nice? Great idea. Sure. That we set up a list of set topics, and only those can be addressed, and only in a certain style and tone? How do you ensure this, without bringing in the police?

Different kinds of people have left the cafe. Some because the place didn't do for them what they wanted it to do for them. Some wanted recognition that they were the supreme poohbah. Some got bored. Some decided there was some conspiracy against them, for no good reason, except that they needed a conspiracy to keep their lives interesting and in some order. Some acted appallingly, and people got spontaneously mad at them. One or two acted so badly, that they had to have their site access restricted. GUEST was invented to deal with serious threats to the trust that holds the place together. Some people are just not good at having their opinions challenged, and arguing back. There are all sorts of reasons why people leave. I have left on occasion because I got sick of reading threads about Northern Ireland. And there are all sorts of reasons why people feel they have to post anonymously, some good, some bad. What do you propose to help the ones in difficulty? Without compromising the openness of the place (which seems to me to be impossible anyway), and which I personally hold to be a foundational principle, what do you propose to meet these unmet needs you speak of? How are they to be addressed?

Finally, the place is dysfunctional, they are all dysfunctional, we are all human beings, except for some of the animals, but there you go.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:50 AM

Ah Jeri, if it were only that simple.

Some are ruled by the rhetoric of the head, some by the heart, some by bitterness, some by ignorance and naivete, some by indifference.

For some, if you suggest their reasoning is not right, it is every bit as offensive to them as it is to those who are offended when their feelings are invalidated.

Some are willing to suffer fools gladly for the sake of superficial, articial (and always fleetingly temporary) harmony, and will punish the just and fair who dare to break the conventions of politesse to speak their minds with passion and conviction.

While tis true that many will insist the premise of Proverbs 17 v.28, "that even a fool who holds his peace is counted wise" is always true, not all of us would agree with the conclusion that "the silent fool should be esteemed as a man of understanding."

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:26 AM

What I see as being a problem is not "I have this opinion, and it's different from yours," it's "You have no right to feel that way."

If you tell someone you don't think their reasoning is not right and explain, it's a big difference from telling someone their feelings are invalid.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:30 AM

Ah, but guest, it all only applies if you accept the rule of rhetoric as infallible! ;-)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:24 AM

So suppose we have a sound argument:
All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

In this case we have an argument where, first, if the premises are all true, then the conclusion must be true (i.e., the argument is valid); and, second, it so happens that the premises are all true. It follows that the conclusion must be true. That is the nice thing about soundness: if you know an argument is sound, then you know that the conclusion of the argument is true. By definition, all sound arguments have true conclusions. So soundness is a very good quality for an argument to have

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 09:28 AM

But thinking about this about further Sophocleese, perhaps refreshing this thread, and drawing particular attention once again to guest message of 13 Aug 11:09 a.m., might move someone beyond square one.

I'm referring specifically to the behavior of certain Mudcat regulars in threads where the outer ring Mudcat contributors are trying to hold a decent conversation about the music, when the provocations (flame baiting and trolling) begins, then is met with complaints from complaints by the ones being deliberately provoked, and then the collective Mudcat inner circle flaming on the target begins.

The case of the Folk Alliance vs. NAACP thread is a classic example of this. katlaughing started in with the "anonymous guest" provocations (ever so sweetly and politely, no?) almost as soon as an anonymous guest appeared in the thread.

Several other dysfunctional member types turned up the heat, until the entire thread was hijacked by those who will post provocations of every anonymous guest poster they encounter, despite the fact Max, the site owner, both allows and supports anonymous guest users on this site. In other words, the dysfunctional members haven't a legitimate leg to stand on for this kind of flame baiting and trolling, but they do it nonetheless. When their taunts and provocations are met with frustration and anger by the anonymous guest, they flame away and all hope of a engaging in civil dialog is lost.

But I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate catspaw's participation in the Folk Alliance vs. NAACP thread. I see he is doing his utmost to keep on-topic. I consider that an improvement, and hope others might be able to follow the example being set.

Kind regards.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 10:47 PM

Geoff, when you say "here are people out there who care", I get the feeling, perhaps wrongly, that you are reffering to the healing circle. Assuming I am right, make no mistake. I have no special interest in any such things and would not be a participant in any regular way. It was an offer to try to help others interests within this forum and is not a reflection on my views regarding healing and only an example of an area that maybe could be further developed within this group.

kat, I can't remember there being a conscensious on the split vs lumped although you could be right. In any case, Max made his veiws clear and as far as I'm concerned as I said before, that is no big deal either way. It is not an issue in itself that I would make a fight over.

I'll try to repeat myself and see if I make any sense this time:

The problem I have is that I see many repeated arguements which largely do not affect me as an individual but seem to have driven some people who I would consider valuable out and silence others and perhaps even as you suggested drive others (including past regulars) to anonymity and in even worse cases seem to have ended up driven to playing obnoxious roles such as gargoyle.

I see a forum that claims to be a community but seems to do little to understand the needs (which are not neccessarily mine) of certain members but I see nothng in the way of attempt to address them or perhaps work on compromise - in fact, I see attitudes that seem to suggest that "anyone who doesn't think or function my way must be nuts because... or should leave"...

Worst of all, I see people arugeing that such a community isn't (what's that word?) dysfunctional - it is to the extent of getting everyone involved in ways they feel comfortable and at times has ways of putting he back up of anyone who doesn't fit and makes matters worse.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:43 PM

Allan Terego - Thanks for starting this thread - It allowed me to express a number of important feelings and opinions!
Katlaughing - You did take the comment as intended!
Jon - Sorry we missed your visit to the Jug! There are people out here who care, but we often are so busy caring for people who are immediately close to us that we do not have time or energy left to stretch ourslves further! Do not give up on us! Spaw - Glad to join the Dysfunctional Personalities - I would like some kind of potted pseudo-freudian analysis (is posting to a thread like entering a tunnel or launching rockets?) - I'd hate to just be Bitter and Twisted like some GUESTs!
Jen Ellen - Nice to hear a gentle perspective! You are one of the people who make the Mudcat special. Ralphie - You are so perceptive. The people who have something to say have all said it. All we are left with is the Troll whose style bears ALL the hallmarks of the serpent who persuaded a certain Adam to take a bite from a certain Apple!!!! Let us now drop off the bottom of the list and make way for some serious discussions.
Geoff the Duck!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 06:08 PM

Jen Ellen,

Apology graciously accepted, and you are in no way ineloquent!

You say bad hair days, I say bad hair. ;-)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Ralphie
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 06:06 PM

TIME TO WIND THIS THREAD UP METHINKS
"Guest" seems to be tugging your collective elastics quite nicely.
It started off as a bit of a puff to Mudcat,(nothing particularly wrong with that) but, like all these threads, it got hi-jacked somewhere down the line.
Ho Hum. Nothing changes, It all stays the same (To quote John Tams)
Ralphie

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:58 PM

I like what Jon Freeman and the eloquent Guest are saying. My experience of this site seems to be similar.

Just as an experiment why don't you try recasting the whole discussion from the point of view of an established white community reacting to the concerns of a young black female who is feeling that she is not welcome despite being intelligent and polite. Would you use the same arguments?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: JenEllen
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:41 PM

Dear Guest,

I apologize. What I so ineloquently tried to say was that if a certain thread or post isn't to 'my' liking, I just leave it alone. And that even if I don't jump on the bandwagon and shout 'yea-team!' everytime something good comes up, I still appreciate in my own way.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should pack up kit and make tracks, but that if something offends you, perhaps try to think if it is truly offensive, or just 'one of those things that people will do'. PMs are a great resource for just that sort of thing. Take the time for one-on-one and decide if it's really worth it to drag someone to the mat over something as inconsequential as a misplaced phrase. As you say, holding the mirror up...well, we all have our bad hair days.

The benefit of this place far outweighs any discomfort I have felt. I have a right to my point of view, as do you yours. I guess I am just curious as to why people would be willing to attack each other over and again for just this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:29 PM

I had already said I did not want to, Jon. I only wrote, again, to say I thought you'd not given it enough time, i.e. no time for Susan to respond.

Anyone who wants to or needs to, knows they can contact me at any time for help with healing and to get the word out. Some of the people who were so acrimonious would no doubt show up on any other place we might have just to stir the pot. I've had enough of that, thank you.

We've also had huge discussion on splitting the forum before and the majority didn't like the idea. I tend to still agree with them.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:28 PM

JenEllen,

Why is it necessary, when some users voice their personal experiences at Mudcat which are different to yours, that they leave, as you suggest they should do above?

This is exactly what I'm talking about--the way the Mudcat "family" gets its knickers all in a bundle every time someone holds a mirror up, and they don't like what they see?

You see, for some of us, the "problem" isn't with the forum. The "problem" some people are talking about is with some Mudcat members who believe only *their* experience of Mudcat is genuine, authentic, or legitimate, and anyone who has a different experience with Mudcat, or expresses a dissenting, non-conformist point of view, should just leave.

That's a problem. You have the right to your point of view. You don't have the right to tell others to leave, because they don't agree with it. Or that their experience of Mudcat isn't valid because it isn't the same as yours.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: JenEllen
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 05:19 PM

Of course there is hope. There is always hope. Just as there are always people who are more willing to open their mouths than they are their eyes. And just the same as in any situation, you will have friends, you will have acquaintances, and you will find people that you would just do better to stay away from. Don't rise to the bait and you don't end up as dinner.

The same clique bullshit has been bandied around for as long as I can remember. Does it ever get solved? Nope. Not likely to happen, either. However, I have yet to find a 'Catter that will not respond politely to a well-worded question, and the answers I've gotten have been wonderfully helpful. The best I can do is to try and respond in kind.

Stuff I've learned/done on Mudcat this week?: Learned I'm not the only one who laughs herself to tears at Stan Freberg's 'Elderly Man River'. I'm learning about fingerpicking and rebuilding mandolins. I've researched a few songs for guests. I've learned about musical/musician history and got a head start on Jazz music. I've written a couple songs, and learned about omnidirectional microphones for recording them. My guitar is tuned correctly, and can be tuned to a CD now. I've learned new songs for Alex's gathering. I've also learned that I'm not the only one who's had to put up with pathetic pick-ups (guitar and men both) and shared a laugh or two about that. I've also learned that there are more versions of the 3 Jovial Huntsmen than I can shake a stick at. Also countless other observations that are none of your damned business. All of these things are invaluable gifts from the people that inhabit this strange little site, and I'm not sure I could find them elsewhere, or that I'd want to.

I don't necessarily have the time or inclination to respond to everything, but I still use the tool. I can't thank Max enough. If it weren't to my liking, I would leave. If it isn't to yours, I can only suggest the same.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:56 PM

GUEST, I was there, you were not, so I'm not going to argue with you. I don't really care if you can't see the parallel. Others do -- but then, of course, we're all deluded. All but you.

I can also live with that.

(On to more productive pursuits. . . .)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:36 PM

[Pater T] Jon, your offer and the fact that it hasn't been taken up is probably due to all sorts of factors. The only one that makes immediate sense in this context is that people here don't want to be shunted somewhere else. They like being here. They like 3 ring circuses.

Peter T, the fact of the matter is that there is some shunting around and some people are not posting what they want to or wanted to, the healing threads being a classic example. Allowing somewhere where these things happen is trying to provide a soultion, one that could perhaps grow to several more specialised areas, expand the Mudcat for specific intrests groups and perhaps if successful be adopted at Mudcat at a later date. I am dissapointed but not surprised to see you suggest that a constructive offer may be seen as shoving around.

[Peer T] Everyone has a selective device close to hand: click the things that might interest you, and don't click the others. There is no centre stage here, there is a weird ecology of cross-pollination. It is noisy, carny-like, in this booth you can hear the cheap organ from the next booth, and some people thrive on it, and some people don't.

I do just that and I enjoy some music threads and some BS threads and it makes no real difference to me whether BS is lumped in or not (OK I prefer split but it is nothing for me to get excited about - certainly not within the type of levels that I normaly see here). What you are failing to realise is that the main difference on this between me and some others here is that I am prepared to listen to the problems others have with the forum and am prepared to bend, be prepared to look at reasons why things may break down at times here and possibly even try to come up with new solutions that may help certain situations. Some others tend to comment on how wonderful and caring they are but don't seem to be willing to show the same degree flexibility or consideration for others.

kat, I chose not to respond to your posting as I saw no reason to. You mentioned the acrominy as one of your reasons. Wouldn't doing what I suggested remove that obstacle and help you conduct something that judging by the threads, you want to do but keep coming against protests many of which are (I think reasonably) based on sheer volume?

McGrath, maybe I will try anoher thread as you suggested rather than just give up. At least you do seem to see some possible potential for good in it - perhaps there is hope yet.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:35 PM

I disagree that the parallel holds Don. Of course, I'm not the least bit surprised you are holding to the *belief* that the parallel holds, the same way those here who hold to the *belief* that Mudcat is unique and more special than other forums on the internet, believe their belief is "fact" and/or "truth."

It is your opinion. Not fact, not truth.

Dysfunctional Alan,

I'm one of the main guest contributors in the thread you mention.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM

Most of these gatherings were held in Seattle's University District. There were several places in the U District that were frequented by folk music aficianados (Howard's Restaurant, the Pizza Haven, the Blue Moon Tavern, etc.). The word was always left at these places that "There's a hoot at Elmar's tonight." Lot's of people we had never seen before came to many of them. Some came with someone, many came just because they heard about it. Private home, yes. But the gatherings were open to anyone who wanted to come.

I know that would scare the pee out of some people, but that's the way we did it. Problems were extremely rare.

The parallel holds.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Allan Terego
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:17 PM

Actually I started this thread. I felt like using the nickname traddles because that's what my wife calls me when I've just spent hours at Bruce Olsen's great website.

So when GUEST 13/1/12:28 implies that 'several' dysfunctionally elite Mudcatters are responsible for it, he must mean I have multiple personality disorder as well. It's quite possible.

It's not very exciting I must admit, but I DID start it simply to express my opinion that "this site is NOT like the others". So many have proven my point better than I ever could. When people get tired of OTHER sites they leave. Here, they go on at great length WHY they're leaving, accept huge numbers of condolences, and then return almost immediately, although sometimes in different guises.

Mudcat is not only bloody informative, sometimes it's so much FUN I can't believe it.

Dysfunctional Allan

PS. Have you seen the 'Folk Alliance' thread? That's turning into an amazing debate, PLUS it's sure about folk music.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 04:06 PM

Thank you Don. Glad you have joined the other dysfunctional spirits here. You have made the obvious analogy which others have done before and yet some will still not accept it.........but it's obvious and true nonetheless. It is the way of things at many gatherings and I fail to see why it is so unnatural to some. I guess we are the ones deluding ourselves.........but ain't it a nice delusion? Better yet, it seems to be shared by quite a few here over the years.

Guest(s)....Sorry if it is screwed up and dysfuntional and impure. Some wanted more purity but it didn't seem to work out for them. Some wanted to do nothing but BS and it didn't work out too well for them either. Consider that Don just may be right and that's the way things work.........At the moment, I'm leaving both the kitchen and the living room and heading for the shop to see if I can give McGrath a hand with a repair.

Spaw

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:59 PM

Don Firth,

The parallels are not obvious. You are talking about private entertainment in people's homes, this is a public forum for discussion of folk and blues music (purportedly). The "parallel" doesn't work.

Kat,

I presume from your message at 3:26p.m. that you disagree with my opinions. Can you explain how two people having different opinions makes one of them duplicitous and manipulative, but the other not?

I have strong opinions, and I articulate them pretty well. That just makes me a half-decent writer. Which, incidentally, has nothing to do with a Mudcat identity either.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:58 PM

One thing that would help would be if we all restrained ourself from ever being sarcastic here. I don't mean we should avoid irony, which has an important place here - they are very distinct concepts. And I do not think thta sarcasm has an important place anywhere.

Here is what H.W.Fowler wrote about this distinction in "Modern English Usage"

sarcasm does not necessarily involve irony, and irony has often no touch of sarcasm. But irony, or the use of expressions conveying different things according as they arer interpreted, is so often made the vehicle of sarcasm, or the utterence of things designed to hurt the feelings, that in popular use the two are much confused. The essence of sarcasm is the intention of giving pain by (ironical or other) bitter words.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:46 PM

HeyaGeoff, I'll take that the way I think you meant it and raise you two :0)'s! *bg*

Don, thanks!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:36 PM

Hi Kat - I was once told that the only way to have a balanced personality is to have a chip on each shoulder :0)
Quack!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:36 PM

Beware -- Long-winded dissertation!!

Since the very early Fifties I've been to more hootenannies and songfests than I can count. The vast majority of these were in private homes. We would sit around in someone's living room and sing, sometimes solo, sometimes all together. Sometimes we'd follow a theme, everybody trying to come up with a mountain murder ballad or a pirate song (challenges to memory and repertoire), but usually it was whatever song happened to pop into someone's mind at the time. All spontaneous, nothing planned. On one occasion, we got going on What Shall We Do with a Drunken Sailor? and people started making up verses. The damned thing went on for over half an hour, and each new verse was raunchier than the last. Songs were often interspersed with jokes, quips, information about a particular song, brief (or not-so-brief) narrations, or bursts of pure silliness. Nothing stuffy, nothing structured -- lots of laughing and lots of quiet and appreciative listening. For a good fifteen years or so, these often spontaneously organized and strictly informal gatherings occurred almost every weekend. The gatherings are still going on. They just don't happen as frequently as they did back then and because we're older and have more responsibilities now, they're generally planned ahead of time. All-in-all, it's about the best way I can think of to spend an evening.

It was not uncommon for some people to gather in the kitchen and talk among themselves. It might be gossip, it might be politics, it might be swapping knock-knock jokes -- and more than one personal crisis found its way to the kitchen, with people there offering sympathy or advice. The kitchen crowd and the living-room crowd were fluid. Often someone would come out of the kitchen to listen to the singing, and someone in the living-room would set aside his or her guitar or banjo and head out into the kitchen to take a break, pick up a fresh beer, rummage through the cheese dip, and see what was going on.

Sometimes it was wall-to-wall people in the living room, nobody in the kitchen (except the cat, having its way with the cheese dip). Sometimes almost everybody was in the kitchen, with just two people in the living room, seriously and studiously comparing versions of a particular Child ballad (and sometimes yelling, "Hey, can you keep it down out there!!?").

There was a bunch of real hard-core musicians, and there were people whose interest in folk music was only casual. And all points between. People who were not at all interested in folk music either didn't come or didn't stay very long.

Were we a "clique" or an "in-group?" Well, yeah, I guess so. I suppose some people who were so inclined could accuse us of that. But most of us had known each other for a long time -- we were close friends. But any new person who walked in was welcome. A singer from out of town was always welcome. Someone who didn't play or sing but liked the music was always welcome. A beginner with a new instrument and a repertoire of two or three songs was usually treated like a new convert, with everyone offering help and advice and giving them an opportunity to try their newly-learned songs (with encouragement, no matter how inept. "Give her time. Remember when you first started."). And if a newcomer didn't know the customs of the natives, they might be admonished politely not to talk while someone is in the middle of a song or something like that, but then that's how one learns the mores of the tribe. If someone (be it newcomer or old-timer) were rude and unruly, they would probably be asked to leave. This happened rarely, but it did happen a couple of times.

The parallels are obvious.

Offhand, I can't recall ever hearing the word "dysfunctional" at any of these gatherings. If the word did apply to anyone there (and I'm quite sure that it applied to a few), it was unlikely that it had nothing to do with the rest of us.

Were we all -- the whole bunch of us -- dysfunctional? Believe me, there were a lot of people who thought so! But I can live with that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:31 PM

Besides that, what proof is there that Bruce really is gone? Judging by his actions just before he "left" in a pile of flames, I would bet he lurks and may even still be the voice of some disgruntled Guests.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM

THANK YOU, PETER T!

Jon, so nice that you have already decided you knew the outcome, when you didn't even respond to my posting. Have you heard from Susan? She is on vacation, as I said, yet you will only allow two days for her to respond? If you already knew the outcome why did you offer? Are you back to trying to prove a point with smug "I told you so's?"

Bruce Olsen is gone because he deliberately flamed consistently over and over and failed to coerce anyone to join him in his exclusive view of what Mudcat should be.

Harsh as it may seem, I am reminded of a friend who grew up in Kansas. At the town limits, there was a sign which said "N***er don't let the sun set on your ass in this town." I suppose Bruce and GUEST would like to have a similar sign at Mudcat, "Amateur folk music lovers need not enter."

For any of you who doubt that I do anything to do with music, take a look at the past week. I've alphabetised and posted the list of the stories behind the songs that george Seto started in Origins: Found on the Mudcat; I've helped translate words in an Ian Tyson song; I've posted the words to a song InOBU was looking for; and, my posts are the three on the Songs You Have posted II thread, as well as more.

The GUEST in this thread has been very duplicitious and a master at manipulation...it goes along with being ultra-paranoid and fear-filled.

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:17 PM

The Mudcat is a Wonderful place - sometimes frisky, sometimes informative, other times slack or boring. That is what happens in real life!
I have been visiting the 'Cat for about 18 Months, and have never been able to see any evidence of this mythical Inner Clique referred to by some people. Failing to see any evidence I assume that it is a myth created by someone with a grudge against some other individual or individuals - Also something found in real life. I have heard the self same accusations about Folk Clubs, Dance Teams, Pubs, Sporting Supporters Clubs, The Campaign for Real Ale, You name it - the same mud will have been thrown by somebody. In many Real World situations I have witnessed, the accusation has comes from somebody who would like to form an inner clique, but others are not interested in joining it!
Certain members and named guests have specific criticisms of the way the Mudcat happens - they are entitled to these - some I would agree with, others perhaps not and in some cases I do not have experiences which would allow me to make a valid comment. I would view a gathering of clones who blindly agreed with each other, or Yes Men who only followed a Leader as not a place for me!
At its worst the mudcat can be tedious, uninspired and petty. At its best it is inspiring, technical queries are answered within seconds of posting, the information you receive is so far beyond what you thought that you had requested that it is overwhelming. Certain individuals can be abrasive, impolite and occasionally downright nasty - (sometimes with good reason). At other times the same individuals may be courteous, amusing and incredibly heplful. We all have good days and bad days, people we like and others we cannot stand to be in the same room with. This again reminds me of real life!
There are vicious nasty thugs who hide away and do the cyber equivalent of smearing our doors with excreta - just like vandals in the real world.
I originally arrived at the site because of the Digital Tradition. When I started to also read the threads, I was intrigued. It took some time to work out what the BS prefix referred to. I now see it as an extremely astute solution to the problem of separating technical queries from the idle chit-chat which many Mudcatters see as an important reason to visit at all. I enjoy taking part in threads about banjo playing, obscure instruments, ethnic customs (European / Asian / North American etc.) I am interested in reading the erudite discussions on origin of songs/tunes. I am fascinated by the depth of knowledge and talent shown by contributors, both regulars and more occasional visitors. - When none of the threads offers this kind of interest I can join in with the Bullshit to pass the time until another interesting thread appears.
If it wasn't for the BS threads I would spend less time at the Mudcat, and would as a result have missed out on some of the more intersting SERIOUS threads.
The Mudcat is to some extent what you make it for yourself. You can pick and choose the parts which interest you. You can decide who to join in with and who to avoid. You can even be a disruptive Troll or Flamer, much as I personally abhor such antisocial behaviour, as it is purely intended to spoil things for everyone else, and I do not think that is fair treatment of us!
Some of the people who have contributed to this thread see a community - I am one of them, and am happy to take part in it. Others do not see a community - that is their privilege and opinion. Some posters obviously believe that a community exists, and go to extreme lengths to attempt to sabotage that community.
It all seems to me very similar to the Real World, and why on earth should I expect it to be different? I have made new friends through the Mudcat. I have renewed acquaintanceship with people who I had lost touch with in the Land of 3D years back! I expect to chance across people who I like, Ones I dislike and ones who pass by without making any impression either way!
I am part of a community! It is my gain. Quack!
Geoff the Duck!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:12 PM

The remarks by Guest are hilarious, it must be a sendup. The vast world hierarchical conspiracy. If I read this right, one group wants to restrict this site to music threads of some kind, which will have presumably have to be monitored to keep out anything that isn't directly related to music, however you decide that, I have no idea. How this is supposed to work, I don't know. Purist Folk Music Police, I guess. In the meantime, the vicious cabal who run the place (from Moscow) don't care, who knows what folk music is, but whatever interests you, go ahead, as long as you act reasonably humanely, and don't wreck the place. I can certainly see why the second group is so dangerous, and must be stopped.

This nuttiness goes on. Many of the regulars here are music people and are interested in music. They don't go into music threads to twist them to their own nefarious purposes. They start music threads! Speaking for myself, I am starting music threads all the time, and some of them go somewhere and some go nowhere. Them's the breaks.

And then there is this nonsense: This dominant group is so entrenched, because Max has institutionalized their power through the most significant changes in Mudcat since it's inception: introduction of the BS threads, and the creation of a Mudcat elite through the creation of two-tier posting. Max had nothing to do with the introduction of BS threads, they just happened. I forget who came up with the name. The idea that BS threads are institutionalized (whatever that means) is crazy: they were a gesture to separate out threads for the benefit of people who wanted music threads! I have no idea what two tier posting means -- is that where Joe says "I cleaned up this space for your benefit?" The guy who makes this place easier for everyone? Is that what you are objecting to?

Jon, your offer and the fact that it hasn't been taken up is probably due to all sorts of factors. The only one that makes immediate sense in this context is that people here don't want to be shunted somewhere else. They like being here. They like 3 ring circuses. Everyone has a selective device close to hand: click the things that might interest you, and don't click the others. There is no centre stage here, there is a weird ecology of cross-pollination. It is noisy, carny-like, in this booth you can hear the cheap organ from the next booth, and some people thrive on it, and some people don't. You want to start a thread on Songs about Asparagus, go ahead. You want to start a thread that you are having difficulty getting over griefs in the family, you go ahead. You want to start a thread on how music helps the disabled and the elderly, you go ahead. You want to start a thread on whether Snuffy Jenkins was the true founder of Bluegrass, go ahead. You want to start a thread on medieval modal tunings (I have), go ahead. BUT WILL SOMEONE TELL ME: HOW IS THIS A REPRESSIVE CONSPIRACY?????

yours in his black cloak, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:02 PM

Everyone, including Guest is entitled to their views on Mudcat, but to accuse us of having dysfunctional social lives- well it wouldn't stand up in court through lack of evidence would it? (Ickle-entirely satisfied with her social life just a bit of trouble fittng it in thankyou very much)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:46 PM

I like this site, I have met loads of really nice people through this site, and found out about local folk sessions.john

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:38 PM

Yes I do know who Bruce Olson is. He gave me helpful information on a number of occasions.

I said, I was asking a question, not trying to stir up any trouble.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:23 PM

Ah--so Bruce Olson being run out of Mudcat is justified because "he signed on as an intentional flamer"?

As if Mudcat regulars don't regularly engage in flaming?

KFC, do you even know who Bruce Olson is, why some people here continue to bring up his name and the way he was treated here, etc?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:16 PM

I'm with Art, I just like it here.

I used the DT a LONG time before I ever posted. I work in an office where no one shares my interests; and rather than be lonely 7.5 hours a day, I come here when work is slow, so I can talk to people who share my interests.

I have learned a lot here, and not just about music. Music is what brought me here in the first place.

Now...... I don't remember all that happened re Bruce Olson, but didn't it have something to do with the fact that he signed on as an intentional flamer? (I am not trying to start any trouble here,just asking a question, if I am wrong, please correct me.)

Cheers -------------------- KFC

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:53 PM

funny, I don't FEEL elite....maybe it's because I'm so dysfunctional.

Lordy, what a few pop psychology books can lead to!...and now we seem to have a 'clique' of guests (hard to tell..maybe just one VERY busy one) doing a free group analysis of our unconcious collective sociopathic dysfunctionality as manifested in knee-jerk posting patterns. (Hey..wow, a thesis topic!)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:39 PM

An "intervention"?!?!?!?!?!?

Bwwwaaahahahaha!

ROTFLMAO!!!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:28 PM

Awwwww McGrath...

Did the Catters forget to put their "No dissenting points of view allowed" label in the header?

Yes, this thread was started as a Mudcat innoculation, once the "Merely Guests" thread was looking like there might be more dissenters than conformists to the dominant Mudcat dysfunctional group dynamic appearing in the thread.

The reason so many of the Mudcat dysfunctional elite have posted to the thread "civilly" is because they started the thread for the express purpose of patting each other on the back, and commenting on how lovely the Emperor's clothes look on each other. Then the minute someone enters the thread to express a dissenting point of view, there is a collective dysfunctional knee-jerk reaction to shut down the thread.

This place is so laughably predictable, it can even be entertaining, at least in small doses.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:18 PM

This seems to be getting a bit needlessly hairy. ("You perfectly illustrate the sickness around here.") And I note that there's just been an intervention at 10.27 (13th August) which seemed clearly intended to manipulate it in that direction.

But up till now we've had a thread in the whither-Mudcat mode which seems to me to have been quite a useful one, and an overwhelmingly courteous one as well, which is useful in itself.

We've had some interesting sites for comparison, some thought-provoking posts about the way we operate. And of course a helpful suggestion and offer by Jon - which could well develop into something of value to us all. But you only made the suggestion on 11th August, Jon, and today's only 13th.

I know Mudcat time is a bit different, but even so things take a bit longer than that. (It might be a good idea for you to start up a separate thread inviting people to suggest how best to use a bit of webspace like that most effectively, to achieve the kind of things you'd like to see it achieve. This thread has gone on long enough for a lot of people to have given up opening it.)