BS: Church joins real world

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 07:41 AM

Guest from sanity quoted the following:

"Beethoven said: ""The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."
― Ludwig van Beethoven"

But does that make it true? Does it heck!

Mohammed said God spoke to him...via an angel, but does that make it true? Does it heck!

You're living in a fantasy land!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 04:54 AM

So called liberals eh?

So.. What exactly is a liberal? To me it is a member of a UK political party that sees itself as the middle ground broker in the two party state that The UK usually delivers in elections. At this time under the present leadership, it has little credibility, but one half of its heritage has a honourable past in social reform at a time when bigotry was the norm.

What, and I can't wait to hear this, is a liberal in the land of Goofus? Or at least the planet he presently orbits?

Nobody discriminates against pete for his fantasy. Good luck to him. He has no credibility however in applying it to reality. Some people, especially in Dumbfuckistan but a few over here too, would have children abused by teaching them fantasy as fact. And all in order to have superstition gain influence.

Rather sad really.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:42 AM

Hey, never mind the last question, you're not the person I thought you might have been...(J.W.)...That person would have had no problem with what I was saying...I thought if you
WERE that person, we would have met, in the mid 60's, at a place called Prentiss, in Malibu, California...anyway, the other guy is an icon to modern folk singers and songwriters.


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 03:22 AM

Interesting how the 'so-called liberals' SAY they like to champion the 'discriminated'..and abhor bigotry....except when it comes to people like pete, who say they believe in God!

Tunesmith: "What inspires an athlete to put his body through the rigours of training?
God, of course!
What inspires nurses to work in dangerous war-torn countries.
God, of course!
What inspires a teacher to work in a horrendous inner-city school!
God, of course!"

You're way off...Beethoven said: ""The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

MUSIC and musicians!!...not athletes, not nurses, not teachers...MUSICIANS! That's what HE was talking about....now, if you can't fathom it, yet he defined it, who are you, or anyone able to disallow his eyewitness account, just because your lesser mind, cannot grasp it. He was using the terminology he had. You are perfectly illustrating my example of someone who's got their head up their ass, saying that there is no such thing as fresh air!!...or course there isn't where your(generically) head is!

Hey, completely different subject...think back to the mid 60's...does Prentiss in Malibu mean anything to you?...a place you may have worked at nights?? and writing during your shift....and would you first initial be 'J'??...either J.H. or J. W.??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:47 PM

?? Mary S? Horner?

I am lost... will wait for longer clarificaion

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 04:38 PM

Bill, have just read a 2005 talk origin article and I will try to find something more updated, but going on this lengthy item, it weeks to boil down to denying it was actually what mary s said it was, and how lacking she was for her and Horner nor combatting creationists on this science distortion!                                                                               One thing we can both agree on, is bad mouthing is not intelligent ,useful discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 10:32 AM

"...insult me and my friends if you wish but expect it back."

If I understand that correctly, you are saying he 'insults your intelligence'... or some such.

If so, you commit the fallacy of equivocation.... using a term in two different senses. As far as I have seen, Pete does not resort to ad hominem remarks.... which you are trying to defend using. That is using two different senses of 'insult'.
You say he ..."employs a large degree of wilful ignorance."... yes, that seems close, but part OF his belief system is that 'knowing the Truth' does not require one to " understand all this science" and that other creationists (inspired ones, I presume) do 'enough' science to combat the confused interpretations you & I subscribe to.
The reasoning is circular, fraught with flaws and maddening to attempt to counter....... and I try regularly to show him, and anyone else who might read these threads and be tempted, how very dangerous his fundamentalism can be. I have been thoroughly castigated for humoring Pete and *I* have been insulted (ad hominem) for treating him as honest and attempting to clarify science and reasoning for him. I don't even really expect to get very far... but at least all this allows ME to hone MY arguments and give some reasonable responses. You, Stu... and others in the UK... seem to be somehow programmed to make a couple attempts at reason... then to dismiss anyone who does not agree with invective and ridicule.
   not much I can do about that, I guess...

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 07:02 AM

"But Pete remains polite and at least sticks to the point..."

You can be as polite as you like but still dishonest and often insulting; one reason I resort to ad hominem comments here – insult me and my friends if you wish but expect it back. The devil wears many disguises. As for sticking to then point, the point is often elusive and if you try to engage him in talk about the facts he starts bleating on about interpretation, how he's just a simple man who doesn't understand all this science (despite feeling he can debate on it), and employs a large degree of wilful ignorance.

I have endless respect for those that are being themselves, but none for charlatans.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 06:47 AM

Guest from Sanity, now first I insist that you change your name!
It is not appropriate, at all!

Following what you say - and you probably believe it! - a great deal ( all?) of human activity is inspired by your God.

What inspires an athlete to put his body through the rigours of training?
God, of course!
What inspires nurses to work in dangerous war-torn countries.
God, of course!
What inspires a teacher to work in a horrendous inner-city school!
God, of course!

Crazy!

Sanity? Change your name, please! You know that it is the correct thing to do!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 05:57 AM

Tunesmith: "Finally, did God inspire John Lennon to write the atheist anthem "Imagine"!"

Maybe the atheists adopted it, because of the line, ...
"Imagine there is no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too"

Well I can't say that I believe in 'religion', either....but that doesn't make me an atheist...now does it?...nor does it void out what Beethoven was referring to, that even the contemporary 'religions' of his time, even had a clue about...

You said, "Beethoven was great musician and he worked extremely hard at his art. That is where his "inspiration" came from."

You missed it completely...What INSPIRED him to do that?..to bust his balls to be penniless most the time for the music???...SOMETHING must have impressed him!!!?? You think has was reading some Bach sheets, and said, "Gosh I could do better than that!....maybe if only he did 'this' instead of 'that'...."

Where did his imagination come from?? What even more did he hear that he didn't capture...What sparked it??....and unless you can do what he did, and claim otherwise, who would you expect to be believed?

To quote Dylan, "Don't criticize what you don't understand...."

He said, "The vibrations on the air...."...If he was talking about actual sound, he would have said, "I hear sounds, in the air..."..but 'vibrations ON the air' has rather different connotations, including things that were not known then...but are known now.
Perhaps he WAS tuned into something, that a lot of people don't tune into, because they have their antennas up their ass!..and then the say, "Fresh air doesn't exist!"
Now actually, that IS a fair analogy...also if you are talking about common misconceptions between God, as a life giving force, and 'Religion', as a life taking farce'

...and unless you're in his shoes, I don't think you can speak for him, especially when the politics of the day, are certainly perception altering!

Fair enough?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 03:41 AM

Beethoven!
Again, he was a product of a religious background ( i.e indoctrination!). And like primitive man, he is going to give God the credit for anything that he doesn't understand.
The great 20th century atheist Russian composers didn't talk about God inspiring them.
Lots of us have had moments when we are "inspired", and produce a thought, a bit of melody,a lyric, and we might say to ourselves " where did that come from?"
To attribute such moments to a God is ridiculous!
Beethoven was great musician and he worked extremely hard at his art. That is where his "inspiration" came from.
Finally, did God inspire John Lennon to write the atheist anthem "Imagine"!
Did God inspire the amazing Charlie Parker to create Bebop, or was it the devil, as many trad jazz fans believe!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 02:09 AM

My previous post was in reply to this one:

From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM

"Beethoven's main inspiration?
Those who came before him!
Without Handel, Mozart and Bach there would have been no Beethoven as we know him.
He evolved from his predecessors!
Just like Man evolved from ape-like creatures.

I think the main problem with many religious types when they argue about evolution, is that they have not bothered to get up to speed on how it works!"

GfS

P.S. Tunesmith..Is your first name 'Jim'?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jul 14 - 01:56 AM

Hmmm..We should back up....Why not ask Beethoven, himself, where it came from...and when asked that very question THIS was reply...(I mean you'd think HE'D have a clue, RIGHT???

Ludwig van Beethoven: "The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."

Maybe he EVOLVED to a higher level to be able to be that tuned in, and hear what he said he heard, and give that reply....and those on a lower level of evolution just can't understand or fathom that, because they haven't evolved that far.....unless Beethoven wrote all that stuff and had no clue, as to 'why' 'where it came from' or what he heard!...and IF he is wrong, I suppose one of you would demonstrate your point, by writing something heavier...and tell us 'why' and 'how' you did it!
If you CAN'T, then DON'T disregard his answer!!!

Evolution...what a shame to be stuck where you are, and left out!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 05:11 PM

As a "poor deluded fool", I take exception to those who assume they can determine the character of a person by their beliefs. I have debated Pete for several years, and I thoroughly disagree with him on most philosophical and logical points. His stated belief system almost demands that he dismiss or redefine reason & evidence that contradicts the narrow area he is most comfortable in.... (like the mother who angrily states "MY son could never do anything like that!".
But Pete remains polite and at least sticks to the point...even if I feel compelled to point out for the 10th time the flaws in his points.

-------------------

And Pete.. having defended YOU, I will echo Stu's remark that links & explanations HAVE been posted. You respond mostly by circling back and restating the positions we recently critiqued. I KNOW you base your beliefs on some supposed literal reading of the Bible...but you know what I have said about that. (Have you even looked at that article Jack Blandiver posted about the timeline of religion? How can you reconcile those carefully researched facts with your single source. ("Creation scientists" who also begin with absolute faith in one religious tract resolves into the logical equivalent of 'single source'.)

*IF* I get some time, I may dig up those old links... but I assure you, they WERE offered.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Stu, in the non-existent electron cloud
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:14 PM

Pete, I don't sat this lightly, but you are a quite dishonest individual. We've discussed soft tissues in dinosaurs on other threads, I've supplied explanations and links and yet you still profess ignorance.

You might fool some of the deluded fools on this site into thinking you're an ok bloke fighting your corner against those shallow, intolerant atheists but more fool them. You sir, are not a nice person.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 02:48 PM

I'll take that as demeaning the capability of women then.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM

now be consistent please, musket. you take keith to task for being a boutique Christian, and then you want me to be one!
and as for what cannot happen, is where I place the grand theory of evolution, until such time that it can be demonstrated to happen.
as has often been said...we may never know how.....but it continues to be an atheist article of faith that it did anyway.
well we're here aren't we, and we know God didn't do it........don't we...?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:43 PM

Back to the thread...

I presume pete is celebrating the announcement that women are equal to men and are capable of holding senior management posts such as bishop?

After all, what credibility can anyone have on any subject if they let their prejudice lead them?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 01:28 PM

what do you mean, and could you give some examples of serious error, bill, so I know what you are referring to.
well bill, I prefer my experts and you prefer yours, it is the validity of the claims that matter, and I,m sure you would agree that it is a fallacy to say that a truth claim is verified by having more supporters. science has often advanced because someone questioned the status quo.
and I am sorry but I really do not remember how you accounted for soft tissue in dinos, other than saying you did not know it could last that long till it was found in dino bone. I do remember, as reported in CMI that there is an experiment with iron and ostrich bones, but who is going to check that in hundreds, let alone millions of years. prior to the discovery of soft tissue in those bones there was no thought of it lasting that long....quite the opposite , I reckon. dino DNA [ WHICH YOU BOUGHT UP] has not many reports yet so I guess the deep time story does not have to be adjusted just yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 09:37 AM

I was obviously getting ahead of myself when I started this thread.

The real world is still a foreign land to those with conviction.

On that subject, another priest got a conviction in court this week. Altar boys apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 04:26 AM

the bible describes a God who is spirit and eternally existing, and so the old "who made God" challenge is redundant.

It's not a matter of challenge, Pete, rather observation, by which it may be shown that far from eternally existing, the Abrahamic God Concept is, in fact, a relative newcomer on the religious-mythological block and far from ubiquitous despite the bullying. Worth a look is the Wiki Timeline of Religion which indicates the processes by which Mankind created such a fiction, very much in his own image it must be said.   

the new atheist challenges now seem to be more on the lines of...

The Atheist concern is not over the ghastly all-too human nature of the Abrahamic God Concept(the whole utterly atrocious scheme is writ large enough in the bible after all) but rather how people can not only believe in such obviously fallacious pornographic jive, but persist in committing all manner of terror-action, atrocity, child-abuse and evangelising in its name. Still, following the example of Godly Behaviour in their holy book perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM

""tricky dino DNA""

What case is this? Links?

"but I find that hard to accept as science."

Pete, you don't even know what science is mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 10:24 PM

"...when awkward discoveries invalidate the details of the story .."

Oh indeed, Pete! Sort of like experts in language and ancient scripts discovering that many translations of biblical passages were in serious error? Surely God would have ensured that all who were 'inspired' to pass on the Word would get it right?...or at least agree.

"..I think it [evolutionism] is a set in stone doctrine."

Sorry Pete, but that is a misstatement of what the concept is about. It is not even a 'doctrine', much less 'set in stone'. Adding "I think" does not give the idea extra credence. There are many, many experts that have studied this more than you OR I who "think" it is sane, reasonable and the only fair way to determine possible answers to important concerns.
Why should a relatively small number of fundamentalist Christians who begin with a narrow, simplistic viewpoint, and thereafter interpret every issue, claim or discovery in terms of their arbitrary 'belief' be given credence in their attempt to also make sweeping statements about the basic formulations of science?

...and as formerly noted, your understanding of Dino DNA involves both factual & interpretative flaws. I and others have posted links to the story and explanations about whether & how ancient DNA 'might' be recoverable. NO ONE is actually asserting that genuine DNA has been successfully from many million year old fossils. Please read up on that story from some source other than Creationism.com

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:18 PM

From (Andrew) Christian Boutique:

""Hey honey, do you like G-strings?

How about booty-shorts? Jockstraps, thongs, boxer briefs, and elegant, Speedo-esque swimming trunks that lovingly support your junk?

Do you sometimes even like to wear regular clothes on top of your kinkified underwear?

Rhetorical questions, ALL, loverface.

Andrew Christian's got you covered.

Or rather, AC loves your shape so much that you'll want to UNcover it often, so that your unmentionables become a staple of your daily conversation.

"Dude, are you wearing a thong?"

"Hell yes, b!tch, and I've got the ass for it."

Mmm, hmm. MEOW.

Andrew Christian's got a huge assortment of men's underthings; think of it as a male version of Victoria Secret except with no lace, stockings, or surprisingly beefy, mean-looking sales girls who seem like they chop down trees or wrestle bears in their spare time.

That's not to say the workers at Andrew Christian are all hulking, Nordic underwear model specimens who will intimidate you or snicker at you behind your back as you fight every man's inner battle--"hipster brief, or thong?"

People of every age, physique, and sexual orientation shop at this store, so come on in, the G-strings are fine.

Non male hooker underwear offerings include jeans, pullover and button-up shirts, and some jackets, all ranging in price between $20 and $280 (for hawt, military style parkas).

Sleazy underwear choices usually range from between $15 to $40, and lots of things are on sale.

The store is small and cozy, so be prepared to be complimented on being beautiful.

Oh! And Rage is almost right next door, so after you spend some money at Andrew Christian, you can shake your moneymaker and earn some more, gorgeous.

xoxo""




(Andrew)Christian Boutique 

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:07 PM

See? I warned you!

That the bible is a fairy story cannot be a preconception, as 1) it is a series of stories and 2) what it states as fact cannot actually happen, or fairy story as it is known in English.

If your God is eternal, the instance that time started existing tends to make such claims nonsense.

Here's a good one about time. It chisels away at the fantasy of religions each and every say. Each attempt to see scriptures as more than what they actually are, stories with morals for the masses to consider, makes them seem even more absurd.

Be like our boutique Christians and accept the history of the story, not the history the story relates.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:47 PM

.....or "creationism" , bill!/?. but as you know bill, I think it [evolutionism] is a set in stone doctrine. it is true that it is a process of sorts , but necessitated by its story having to change when awkward discoveries invalidate the details of the story at some point. that "tricky dino DNA" is a case in point. correct me if I am mistaken but I understood that DNA has a set shelf life a long ways short of 65 plus myo. same with the various soft tissues.
but because evolutionists "know" dinos are that old, they now know that these perishable elements can last that long. the deep time and other Darwinist basics are set in stone, imo.
excuse me, but I find that hard to accept as science....more like fundamentalism.
and if your description of what evolutionism is, is all there is to it, it would make creation scientists evolutionists. all scientists measure data...it is the interpretation of the data that differentiates. do you have an argument with kerkuts definitions that traces the theory back to nothing?

hi mthemg,- how can you be "pretty sure" that there is not a creator " omnipotent, supernatural being " . the problem with the turtle on a turtle ad nausium scenario is that those turtles are material , and the regression must stop somewhere. the bible describes a God who is spirit and eternally existing, and so the old "who made God" challenge is redundant.
the new atheist challenges now seem to be more on the lines of " if God is good and powerful why.......you name the evil or suffering allowed..."
the biblical creationist can go so far in answering these challenges, but of course it will be nothing such atheists will consider, since their preconception is that the bible is a fairy story.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 12:18 PM

By the way, Pete... "evolutionism" is a loaded word. It makes it sound like "Catholocism" or "Protestantism" or "Buddhism" , as if it were a set-in-stone semi-religious doctrine. It is not reasonable or fair to categorize it that way. Evolution is a word for a process, and that process is studied in many ways by various of the sciences.

(and "Darwinism" is even worse, because Darwin never published many conclusions about the implications of the relationships between the species he collected.)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 12:09 PM

"evolutionism as supposedly held by millions says that there was nothing at all, and then there was.."

No, Pete...evolution, as a theory, does NOT make such a claim, even if 'some' of those millions who accept it do. That is a misstatement of what evolution as a science is concerned with. All the science is concerned with is learning as much as we can about what we can see, measure and calculate.

If you wish to claim that "something from nothing" is implied by accepting evolution as a probable hypothesis, I can only shrug and repeat what I have told you for perhaps 5-6 times... you CAN believe in a Supreme Creator and at the same time accept that evolution is merely the complex result of what HE/SHE/IT started. If you also wish to believe that HE/SHE/IT designed & planned every step of it all, you can do that also.... but if you also believe that HE/SHE/IT gave us intelligence & reason to appreciate and explore ITS creation, then you can't avoid the huge and daily growing evidence OF those step and details.
Things like The Burgess Shale (and that tricky dino DNA) are there... they are hard evidence of life that existed long before any organism ever imagined writing a Holy Book. Holy books are numerous and recent.... they are Man's attempt to make sense of existence and pass on 'stories' of what they remember and what they were told about amazing experiences and the **interpretations** of those experiences. Holy Books are important as subjective guides for many people... but they are NOT guides to the science we need to fully understand as much as possible of what we see.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM

If music evolved, my mate Peter's singing would improve with time. That buggers that theory...

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:48 AM

The quote about 'evolutionism' was me quoting pete, not me.

"Therefore, how can you say that there is no connection!

The development of music isn't analogous to evolution because the fundamental structure of music is always there; it simply awaits discovery. Evolution doesn't "move forward"; unlike music it is a mindless and mechanistic process.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:37 AM

For example, in the early days of the Earth there was no water! Not a drop!

The water has always been here, but not in liquid form until the temperature fell sufficiently.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:30 AM

Stu said:
"evolutionism as supposedly held by millions says that there was nothing at all, and then there was, and then progressing through more unobservable and untested steps."

But there was something there before "life" on Earth!
There was planet Earth, to start with.
And, all the material needed to create life was there! ( and maybe we were helped a bit by material coming in from space).

Nature has the ability to create something, were seemingly that "something" previously didn not exist!

For example, in the early days of the Earth there was no water! Not a drop!
Now, there is quite a bit!
Did that water come from nothing?
Oh, wait a minute, maybe God put it there!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 11:20 AM

Stu said: "But has fuck all do do with the development of music, the analogy is useless"

Really, well the progress of life on Earth and the progress of art forms both are do with evolution, so it that respect they are connected!

They have both moved from the very simple beginnings to the not so simple!

They both move forward(if that is the correct thing to say) via "trial and error".

Therefore, how can you say that there is no connection!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 10:25 AM

"evolutionism as supposedly held by millions says that there was nothing at all, and then there was, and then progressing through more unobservable and untested steps."

Complete and utter bollocks. Read about it or shut up.


"AND, evolution is the easiest principle to understand."

But has fuck all do do with the development of music, the analogy is useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:48 AM

If you must ask questions of pete, perhaps scroll up to the beginning of this thread where he says that women aren't capable of obtaining senior posts and their career ladder must fall short of that of men.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 08:46 AM

Oh for Clapton's sake, don't say that Tunesmith! pete is up to speed alright, he just doesn't know how it works.

If he reads what you just put, he might regurgitate a few hundred of his earlier posts on evolution that prove beyond all reasonable sanity that he doesn't understand it...

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:41 AM

Beethoven's main inspiration?
Those who came before him!
Without Handel, Mozart and Bach there would have been no Beethoven as we know him.
He evolved from his predecessors!
Just like Man evolved from ape-like creatures.

I think the main problem with many religious types when they argue about evolution, is that they have not bothered to get up to speed on how it works!

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 06:08 AM

""you meant,'Gaelic', I presume""

No, I have no problem with gaelic marriage:)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:33 AM

Err.. actually pete, there is no evidence that it starts with a player / vocalist. The oldest instrument I have ever seen, believed to be at least 10,000 years old, (older than your God of course) was a hollowish boulder in Azerbaijan that was used as a percussion instrument, and there are cave paintings nearby to where it was found showing it being used.

Unless, of course, your God put it there to test us... Like he did with dinosaurs.

{Is there any alternative to taking the piss? Really? How can you have a discussion about reality without fantasy wanting to be heard on the same level?}

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 05:28 AM

Valid points indeed, pete. But the atheist position is predicated on the somewhat arbitrary nature of your [by whom I mean all theistic believers'] accounts of how it all came about. I don't see why it should have been God [however one pictures or conceives of Him] any more than that gila monster on the tortoise's back or whatever. If you go on, as some have, to urge that "God" is simply your formulation for The Primary Cause, whatever it may be, then one must rejoin that that is a complete begging of the question; as well as being entirely unsatisfactory, surely, from a theological POV, to any sort of theistically orientated person, whose beliefs must, by definition, subsume the existence of some sort of omnipotent supernatural Being? We don't know what did it; but we are pretty sure it was nothing that could be defined by the final phrase of my last sentence before this one; especially one that remains around, supervising what goes on within Its/His 'Creation", and thus susceptible to the concept of "prayer'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:36 AM

tunesmith....hardly a valid comparison. the "evolution" of music starts with a player/vocalist , an instrument or vocal of some sort, and with an intelligent creator/performer of sound, forming music.
evolutionism as supposedly held by millions says that there was nothing at all, and then there was, and then progressing through more unobservable and untested steps . that is why I say it is a faith position....and of course I am not using that expression in the sense of a living god. bill is of course correct that there is much to ponder, but at the very least the stupidity you, tunesmith , lay at the door of the theist bounces back to your doorstep, when you accuse us of belief unwarranted.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jul 14 - 04:09 AM

Before you get to pronouncing words Goofus, try understanding them.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 10:32 PM

EdT.: "No big point, gfs, but, a word of caution, one of your posting brothers does not seem to like quotes, possibly except in gaelic"..(you meant,'Gaelic', I presume)

Actually I have a pretty well known violinist friend who was trying to teach it to me..I must say, it is hard to figure it out, just on the printed page!!...BUT, she has made some progress!...(except how in the world do you pronounce some of the stuff the way it's spelled???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:43 PM

Oh, what a world of woe and sin!
My head grows bald, but not my chin!
                                     --BurmaShave


Who created God?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:16 PM

"Well, if your God commanded you to kill a family member, would you?"

Ah... Abraham & Issac. Supposedly, God played that trick on Abraham directly. ('HE' tended to get personal with folks a lot more way back when.) These days, claims of hearing commands from God tend to involve psychotic episodes... and often, horrendous crimes.

--------

and, Pete.... whether there has 'always' been something is not a question that can ever be answered definitively. The musing about it is no easier ...or harder...than contemplating how or why there was 'always' a God who suddenly decided to 'make stuff'. It is all anthropomorphic creativity of humans who LIKED the idea of a caring, all-powerful Supreme Being, and who did NOT like the idea of trying to cope with ∞∞^∞. This is all so even IF there were a god who did all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 08:10 PM

No big point, gfs, but, a word of caution, one of your posting brothers does not seem to like quotes, possibly except in gaelic (Brasoisg).

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 07:28 PM

Tunesmith: "But now - via evolution - we have the most complex of pieces of music from Mozart's Symphonies and Beethoven's Piano Sonata and Charlie Parker and...
If 10,000 yrs can produce such amazing changes, just imagine what billions of years can produce! Like us, for example!"

Bravo!!....Now compare what you just said, to another post, that I just posted on another thread....hold on, I'll get it......gotta go 'next door'...(tippy tappy tippy tappy...)...OK, Got it!....

Here:

"When I think of Beethoven verses political activism, One can only be reminded that Austria and Germany have had lots of zealots on both sides of the spectrum, 'left' or 'right', Monarchs, Kaisers, several wars and political overhauls...and each time they were accompanied, with sincere and not-so-sincere activists....only to be overturned, by the next bunch, cut from the same cookie cutter, right?

Beethoven's music has outlasted ALL of them....unchanged!!
What is it that he was 'listening to', within him, that reached into the 'eternal'???.....or at least relative eternal, when compared to all the shit you political know-it-alls, think you know so much about?

I'd rather dial into what he was talking about.

GfS


P.S. WWII Nazi Germany was defeated, but Fascism survived, and you, and resembling ilk, though sincerely denying it, are still trying to promote it, though I'm convinced that it's presentation is well disguised....and though you might 'get it up' to be sincere, you're sincerely wrong...."

P.P.S.:
""Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"Don't only practice your art, but force your way into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"The vibrations on the air are the breath of God speaking to man's soul. Music is the language of God. We musicians are as close to God as man can be. We hear his voice, we read his lips, we give birth to the children of God, who sing his praise. That's what musicians are."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. Music is the electrical soil in which the spirit lives, thinks and invents."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"Whoever tells a lie is not pure of heart, and such a person can not cook a clean soup."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"A great poet is the most precious jewel of a nation."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

"The guitar is a miniature orchestra in itself."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

""Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life."
― Ludwig van Beethoven

There!...something to consider....

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Musket
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:53 PM

Perhaps pete, most people don't think in those terms at all. Must people think of where they are going for their holidays or how to pay the mortgage this month.

I have noticed how those too frail to get on with life without a crutch to lean on or a comfort blanket to suck on tend to assume that everyone else is as unstable as they are.

Mind you, those who feel very stable about their religion tend to he the ones to watch out for.

Tunesmith is correct when saying in The USA it is difficult to run for office without thanking Jesus for the opportunity, leading gullible voters into thinking they are religious regardless of whether that is a fish thrown to the clapping seals. You see it with TV evangelists asking their viewers to forgive them for using donations to pay for sex and drugs.

Here in The UK, neither the deputy prime minister nor leader of the opposition are superstitious and the Prime Minister only started professing faith after he got to lead his party. Newspapers have noticed he never goes to church unless it includes a political opportunity.

Many churches profess numbers they don't have and because of the appalling faith schools recent religious politicians have promoted and funded, many people quite rightly say they are religious just to get their children into a nearby school with good results. Ironically, faith schools are getting their comeuppance lately with both the Islamic debacle in Birmingham, a couple if schools caught teaching creationism as a fact and the school Tony Blair sent his son to has been caught asking parents to attend Catholic Church and produce baptism records as a condition of accepting their children. All highly illegal and liable to criminal prosecution.

As I said at the beginning of this thread, one stone tablet at a time. Secular education and ending religious bigotry on sexual orientation, abortion, genital mutilation of children and telling creationist lies to them as fact are the next milestones.

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:42 PM

""most people have got more sense than to believe that there was absolutely nothing, and then out of nothing, and via no one there was something.""

We'll, even with a deity, (as with science) there must'a been "a nothing" resulting from a "something" somewhere back there somewhere? In fact, there is plenty to puzzle all us humans "whatever" you speculate (or, believe) was the origin of it all. Why would you be so "smug" to say that others that are puzzled (with no, or less oc a religious belief) have less sense than a religious believer- one who can not really know it all- for certain, either , Pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Church joins real world
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jul 14 - 04:41 PM

pete from seven stars link said

"cant prove it, of course, but I reckon ,that even though evolutionism is currently the ruling paradigm, that most people have got more sense than to believe that there was absolutely nothing, and then out of nothing, and via no one there was something"

Pete, there has always been something!

AND, evolution is the easiest principle to understand.
Take music! 10,000yrs ago music probably consisted of a bloke banging on something, and a hunter twanging the string of his bow.
But now - via evolution - we have the most complex of pieces of music from Mozart's Symphonies and Beethoven's Piano Sonata and Charlie Parker and...
If 10,000 yrs can produce such amazing changes, just imagine what billions of years can produce! Like us, for example!