BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM

OR THE FREE EXERCISE, THEREOF... Yes, Spleen, even Nazis and Communists in this country have the same rights as anyone else. If a nurse had invited the patient to a Nazi meeting, AGAIN, a simple "no, thank you!" would have ended the conversation.

As for the work place. When a person accepts employment they are, in a sense surrendering some of their rights for gain. You don't bad-mouth the employers product or service. You don't play games on the internet or do crossword puzzles on company time. And you don't proselytize!

You do not, however, surrender your human rights. Certain jobs cannot allow what we would call "normal social conversation". I'm sure you can think of soome situations where this might be true. "Loose lips sink ships" for instance. Many topics can come up on the work room floor and do, but it's a little more constricted when you are dealing with the public on behalf of the company. The employer has every reason to expect you to represent him or the company in all your on-the-clock dealing with said public. Some companies (and religions too) are very tight about this and you should know that upfront. If you have agreed to this as a condition of employment then you had better follow company policies or find another postion elsewhere.

Most places allow some degree of normal human interaction with the public. They may stipulate "no religion or politics" and that too is fine. If the customer intiates the topic fine! You may steer them away or agree with them or arrange a time OUTSIDE of the company's time to continue the conversation. These are all reasonable things. To say "God bless you" or "I will pray for you" are NORMAL conversational phrases. If the company STIPULATES otherwise, then you are faced with a choice.

If a pagan or wicca practioner ( and I have had friends in these religions) offered a pagan intervention on my behalf, I would thank them for their kind thoughts and offers. I might decline, I don't know. It depends on the person, conditions.

Fresh air? I have all I need and then some.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 02:34 PM

Re the Pagan example, I thought I had answered that.
Or Moslem, Sikh, Hindu ....
If it was a simple request I would have no problem at all.
I would welcome the caring warmth of it, and accept.
If it was a satanist I would decline, but not make an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:53 PM

Exactly, Keith - that's what they have chaplains *for*. That's one of the things that makes it *not* OK for a medical employee to offer prayer. I mean, the hospital has plumbers, too, and the nurse doesn't expect to unclog toilets.

I might add that the chaplain was *very* helpful to me when I was in hospital trying not to have the twins too too too prematurely (they eventually made it to 30 weeks), and even more so when I was in labor and my late ex(tra asshole) didn't show up about 12 hours... she had found out very early, of course, that I was an atheist, and offered nothing spiritual, didn't even say Well I'll pray for you but you don't have to participate at all. She just figured I was the one who needed a hand to hold right now, and she held it (metaphorically at first, then literally). I wouldn't get *her* fired either.

Then again, I'm not sure that secular comforting is out of the purview of a chaplain the way that religious comforting is out of that of a nurse. I mean, a chaplain's job is to comfort, and since they can do it nondenominationally they can do it denomination-free-ly, no?

We did, before the labor (that is while I could hold a rational conversation) *discuss* my atheism, and her faith, but it was conversational, not evangelical. We were both curious about the other. We also talked about a lot of other stuff, like how I was going to handle preemie twins in the real world.

Meanwhile, back when I was first hospitalized, the nurses had asked me if I wanted to meet another woman on our floor (the problem maternity ward) who had just had very preemie twins, one of whom was not expected to live. They just thought it might be helpful for both of us (I presume they had already asked her). I said yes, of course, and we talked a bit but very early, she said she was placing her faith in [her] god. I said well, I'm an atheist, and I'm placing my faith in the medical center and its stellar record with preemies. I thought we'd then go on and talk about our fears for our various feti and babies, but no, she couldn't get past it, and all she would talk about was how I needed to have faith in the supernatural instead. It got to where I had to tell the nurses to just her away from me, which they *completely* understood. And seemed to take as part of their job in keeping me pregnant and under the best possible *medical* care. (They were nice about it, and told her I was sleeping.)

We also had this come up when my Mom's heart surgeon found out Mom was a holocaust survivor and went all yiddish-y and god-y (which he hadn't been before!) and I had to take him outside and say cut the crap, we're atheists and we're here for a medical issue (as a biological scientist I'm the central contact with medical stuff for Mom, just as my sister the lawyer is for the legal stuff, in case you're wondering why I took it upon myself). We didn't want him *fired* but it was insulting as all getout, and it outraged Mom which was exactly what she didn't need right then, she had come for quadruple bypass surgery.

Do either of these anecdotes change anybody's mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM

John P - that's precisely the point, and thanks for putting it so clearly and concisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 11:47 AM

Keith,
Here's another hypothetical case: Let's say the nurse was a pagan instead of Christian. After seeing to the patient's needs, she asks if the patient would like to help her call on the aid of the Goddess and a couple of nature spirits to cast a healing spell. Would that still be OK with you? Would the newspaper article have been written the way it was, or would it have had the opposite slant? Would she, and should she, have gotten her job back? If the situation does come up with a non-Christian religious person, should the service she works for treat her like the they did the Christian, or should she stay fired?

Really, where's the line?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 11:05 AM

"Just about everyone else did not"

???

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:55 AM

We just have a different perception.
The nurse did not knowingly break the rules. She believed she had not.
The other worker thought she had, but it was found she had behaved properly.
The other worker felt as you do. Just about everyone else did not.
We are not going to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:47 AM

Keith,
The atheist? Why do you say that?

Slag,
As a matter of fact, I am an American citizen. Obviously, you are not a manager, doctor, police officer, or a member of any other profession where your boss would fire you for offering religion to those over whom you have power. I don't think I've ever said that an offer of religion was illegal or unconstitutional.

Backwoodsman,
Of course I've heard of the Hippocratic oath. Ever hear of oath breakers, or people, like our nurse, for whom God trumps everything else?

Look, the nurse knowingly broke the rules of her employment three times and got the sack. This was not news; it happens every day. The religious law center she went to helped her get her job back by, in part, getting an inflammatory newspaper article published saying that she was fired for praying. Correct, on the surface; but she was really fired for breaking a rule, in this case a rule that she must have been taught about in nursing school, and which she accepted as a part of her employment. None of us would ever have heard about it if the religious law organization didn't have, as one of its main functions, the forcing of religion into places where we, as a society, have decided it is inappropriate.

The fact that she was done with her work with the patient for the day is irrelevant: is she never going to visit that patient again? The fact that the patient didn't object as much as the other health-care professional did is also irrelevant; the other worker had enough sense to recognize an ethics violation and report it. What if her next patient had been tortured by Christians as part of the war on terror? An extreme example, I know. I could come with several dozen less extreme, but this one gets the point across.

I'm interested in whether anyone has an answer for Spleen Cringe's question: When is it OK for someone in a position of power to offer religion? Where do you draw the line? Keith, you've said that you would respond like me to my examples, but not to this instance. Where is that pesky line?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:53 AM

Another example where I agree with the atheist.
Our nurse did not do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:50 AM

"Another example: You go into the emergency room with a serious injury. The first thing the doctor says is "Let's pray for your return to health". You then say, "I'm not a Christian". Are you left wondering if you have just insulted someone who is about to cut you open or sew you up, or whatever? Do you worry about how rational and tolerant this particular person is? Again, keep in mind that many non-Christians have been discriminated against - if only by being insulted - in large or small ways for their lack of belief."

Ummmmm, ever heard of the Hippocratic Oath?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:22 AM

Offering to pray with others is a form of evangelism.

Which is exactly why an offer to pray is a violation; it violates the fresh air of common sense and decency with the imposition of a belief system so oppressively absolute it precludes every wondrous aspect of our common humanity as being somehow sinful, thus condemning the rest of us to an eternity of ghastly torments at the hands of The Dark Fellow himself.

Evangelising Christians are violating enlightenment by the active propagation of fear, ignorance, and superstition. Furthermore, they are violating the infinite cultural and spiritual diversities of humanity by preaching that there can only ever be the ONE truth. That one such Evangelising Christian goes out in the guise of a nurse to exploit the uncertainties of the infirm with offers of prayer is a violation of the sanctity of human dignity not only enshrined in very code of conduct that she, as a health professional, is duty-bound to abide by, but which is our common and inviolable right regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 05:21 AM

Offering to pray with others is a form of evangelism. Evangelism - spreading the word - is seen as essential business by most of the non-denominational churches and a core duty of believers that they must carry out whenever they can. It can include anything that is in any way about sharing your religious beliefs with others - including offers of prayer. It's all about the overriding responsibility to 'save' others - whether they think they need it or not. A bit like the average Trotskyite's overriding responsibility to get people to join 'the party' whether they want to or not. And - yes - as many have pointed out, you can just say no. This is fine between private individuals but can be no part of the professional relationship between carer and cared for, unless the individual has chosen to be cared for by a private institution that specifies provision of prayer as part of what they offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM

Irrelevant Spleen.
She did not sell, push or evangelise.
If she had done I would not defend her.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:12 AM

So it would have been equally fine if the nurse was selling fascism, then, Slag? Fresh air still required? Or special dispensation for evangelists?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:10 AM

John P, in your examples my reaction would again be as yours.
If the nurse had started with her offer, I would not be here defending her.
She had finished her work with the patient, done her duty, tended to all the patients physical needs.
Remember that hospitals actually employ chaplains to come and make just such offers to patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 02:15 AM

John P, obviously you are not an American citizen. Here in America our Constitution has 10 amendments we call the Bill of Rights. In the very first amendment it states (emphasis, mine) that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING the FREE EXERCISE thereof; or ABRIDGING the FREEDOM of SPEECH, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This allows us to freely engage in dialog with any who are interested as well as allowing us to DISENGAGE if we want no part of it. No harm no foul. Now if someone is, say, a captive audience such as a person in a hospital then they would have the right to make the persistent evangelical to buzz off. That doesn't seem to apply in this case as it was an inquiry if the ailing person might desire to have another petition her god to the end of healing that person. A courteous "No thank you!" and the transaction is over and done. Had the nurse persisted then, yes, disciplinary measures should be taken.

I can engage anyone in a discussion of anything mutually agreeable to the both of us. If I am on the job, I don't cease being a person and I don't necessarily surrender my rights. If nothing else I can suggest contact outside of the place of employment. Again, it all depends upon the listener's response. Whenever a "NO!" is encountered, that ends it. Same with "I demand to see an attorney!" no further questioning may continue. Works for me. Get real.

One of my favorite quotes comes from the movie "The Princess Bride". The Dread Pirate Roberts states "Life is pain and if anyone says different, they are selling something." Think of all the annoying commercial advertisements on the TV and radio, the mail and magazines. They are all selling something and no one is up in arms about that! Philosophers, gurus and Christians are also selling something, a belief system, a way of thinking or someone or something to put your faith in. That's all. "Yes, tell me more" or "No thank you!" Get a little fresh air. It may help you to relax.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:13 PM

Keith of Hertford,
Thanks for the reasonable post. Here are some hypothetical questions for you:
If you ended up in court for some reason, and the judge started by asking you if you were a Christian, and you weren't, would you feel that the judge was asking you an inappropriate question? Given that there are large segments of the population who have proved they are not tolerant of non-Christians (you might just have to take my word for that), would you feel worried about the level of impartiality the judge would bring to your case? Mind you, I'm not saying the judge would necessarily be lacking in impartiality, but having been asked the question, wouldn't you wonder about it?

Another example: You go into the emergency room with a serious injury. The first thing the doctor says is "Let's pray for your return to health". You then say, "I'm not a Christian". Are you left wondering if you have just insulted someone who is about to cut you open or sew you up, or whatever? Do you worry about how rational and tolerant this particular person is? Again, keep in mind that many non-Christians have been discriminated against - if only by being insulted - in large or small ways for their lack of belief.

Of course I don't get upset when people talk about their faith and they don't in any way have my fate in their hands. If they do have my fate in their hands, should I lie and pretend to believe so I don't upset them? How do I know, with strangers, who is going to be intolerant and who isn't? If they are wearing a cross or a veil or some other outward sign of belief, again, no problem. If they ask me to join them in praying or ask about my religion, there's a big problem, one of perception if nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:03 PM

I've kept away from this thread since it's turned into Ron Davis assuming virtually everyone else is an atheist and insulting them for it... but this question occurs to me, asked of those who think health and social care professionals bringing their private belief systems onto the job is a good and sensible thing: when is it not okay? Who shouldn't do it? Or do you extend your invitation to make the private public to all shades of religious, political and cultural opinion, and to all client/patient/service user groups no matter how vulnerable or powerless?

I ask this as a health and social care practitioner who keeps his personal views private on the job as a matter of ethical and professional good practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:23 PM

Why not? We tolerate lotsa shit these days from PC crap to crooked government to manipulation by multi-nationals.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:21 PM

Ah, but why tolerate superstition in a medical situation?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:20 PM

'" It's about whether or not it is ethical for people in positions of authority to bring their religious beliefs to work."'

Well, priests and ministers do . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:14 PM

John P.
I would hate anyone, Christian or other, to push their beliefs on me at work, in hospital, street or anywhere.
So far we agree.
That is good right?
Your last post said, " It's about whether or not it is ethical for people in positions of authority to bring their religious beliefs to work."
You object. I don't. It is part of their personality.
I see the crucifix or the veil or the turban.
Fine.
They ask if I want a prayer and most religions I will decline.
If they persisted I would have a problem.
Otherwise not. It is called tolerance.

This nurse just asked once and immediately let if go.
The patient had no problem. I think most of us could cope with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:20 PM

Make that a what is Traditional Folk music thread and it will last ever longer.

Ot start a thread titled - What's up with Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:09 PM

If you think THIS is bad, try some of the 'what is folk' type threads. They make this look like a walk in the park.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: frogprince
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 02:13 PM

I think that the last time anything was dragged to death, and then dragged this much further, was after someone tried to clarify a thread title a little for everyone's convenience.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 01:20 PM

Ron, you seem to be seeing this as a discussion of atheism vs. religion. It's not. It's about whether or not it is ethical for people in positions of authority to bring their religious beliefs to work.

Assuming that anyone who doesn't think so is an atheist is a remarkable stretch, for someone who keeps demanding facts. If you want facts, you might consider doing some research about whether or not there are professional codes of conduct for medical providers that cover this.

By the way, you're still referring to people who are present in the third person. Is this some sort of attempt to make it sound like the rest of the world is on your side, and you are just expressing your amazement about the delusional minority to a more rational majority? Whatever the reason, it's still rude.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:52 PM

Right, Ron. In other words, since you can't argue with facts, you're going to stoop to insults. Again, I might add.
All I've been saying all along is that you can't count Hitler among the atheist dictators, since his regime was religious, his arguments were religious, and his genocide was religious... whether he was a believer after age 7, as you claim without any substantiation, or not. So, sustain your argument, would you? Who was it who said arguing knowledge is more fun, if you have facts to throw at each other?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 11:50 AM

Guest Slag,
Of course your picture is all wrong. With one or two sad exemptions, I don't know of anyone who believes any of that. What's your point? Do you really think there are a lot of people running around who feel that way?

Here's a quote from you that, for me, brings this whole conversation into focus:

"Nothing of what I believe would prevent me from engaging any of you in an honest dialog."

If you are a private citizen offering to chat with me about religion, I'll either engage with you or tell you to go away. If you are a medical professional doing it on the job, if you are a teacher doing it to a student, if you are a police officer doing it to someone you just stopped, if you are a politician doing it to a constituent, I'll do my best to get you fired.

Can you understand the difference between being a Christian and forcing your beliefs on unsuspecting people over whom you are in a position of authority? Are you saying that telling a religious person that it is inappropriate to practice their religion in any and all situations is in some way discriminatory against Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 02:07 AM

(Hi, Ron!)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 01:47 AM

What's wrong with this picture?

    Christian= Nazi
    Christian= bigot
    Christian=closed mind
    Christian=prejudice
    Christian= all that's wrong in the world
    ad nauseum

If you say "nothing" then you are saying something about yourself. I consider myself a "fundamentalist" in that there are certain fundamentals which pertain to the faith of a Christian. Some of these beliefs readers might find distasteful or offensive. It doesn't change my beliefs whether you do or don't. Nothing of what I believe would prevent me from engaging any of you in an honest dialog. Isn't that what you might call an open mind? We all have anchor points from which we draw reference for things perceived. This is how we draw meaning and purpose in life. Your lost without them. Does that make YOU a fundamentalist? I think, maybe, YES! It's just that your fundamentals are perhaps, different from mine. When we don't let the fundamentals get in the road of communication and understanding then we are getting somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 11:54 PM

Right. Anything you say. Since Hitler started off Catholic, this explains his crimes.   I rest my case on the reasonable nature of Mudcat atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 11:51 PM

Unfortunately for Christians, it doesn't make sense the way they're trying to frame it. Looking at the bigots we have in present day culture, there is no way somebody could be as diabolical as Hitler without being addicted to some ancient superstition or another--cocaine wouldn't do it--and if he started out Catholic... In the words of Ron Davies, "If the shoe fits..."

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 11:51 PM

Oh yes, one more thing about the reasonable nature of Mudcat atheists: I forgot the charmer whose standard greeting to unexpected visitors is : "Fuck off."

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 11:27 PM

Obviously there is no criticism of Ebbie intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 11:25 PM

I'm sorry, Ebbie, I really would like to drop this. After all, it was decided--against the atheist viewpoint--over a month ago.   But there's still an amazing amount of drivel being spouted by people who don't like the decision.

Anybody who thinks Hitler's speeches prove anything other than that he was diabolical--willing to say anything in public to get his way-- is, sorry, delusional.   As well as being a poor reader. I noted the point about Hitler's speeches earlier, if you had taken the time to read.   Your wishful thinking that Hitler had been a Christian is exactly that--after about age 7.

Do you believe what a public figure says in public or what he says in private--if the two completely contradict each other, as they do with Hitler in this case.   In other words, how naive are you?

And have you found any more "unhealthy knowledge"?   Sure is striking that that is precisely the phrase arch-bigots would use about somebody who wanted to teach Darwin.



Also: people don't seem to like it when I name Mudcatters by name. And they don't like it when I don't. That about covers the possibilities, seems to me. So, since there is nothing to gain by changing, I will continue as before.



It is also interesting that despite my civil requests for better information on religious belief in the UK, nobody has come up with any actual facts which contradict mine.
So it appears, that as I said, the "religious frenzy" is in the mind of the poster--the depth of common sense in the UK--not any kind of "frenzy"-- has overcome the intolerant atheist viewpoint seen amply on Mudcat.

When our family used to go to church, my father, as he left the church, would ask the minister about the logical fallacies in his sermon. Seems like a reasonable role.

So I suppose you'd say it's a family tradition to poke holes in pretensions. And Lord knows, Mudcat atheists offer plenty of twaddle and pretensions. But it's amazingly easy--with "violation", "unhealthy knowledge", "religious frenzy", etc, it's fairly obvious that the claim of Mudcat atheists to be reasonable, logical people falls under the rubric of "flimsy pretension".

Let's see: against logic, afraid of "unhealthy knowledge", unwilling to think--sounds like some Bible Belt fundamentalists--or many Mudcat atheists--all except Amos and Bill D. Somewhat amazing in highly educated, (mostly) articulate people.   But perhaps it's part of the new atheism.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 11:20 PM

Excellent Peace! Priceless! I had a great laugh from that.
PFR, I didn't know Meatloaf (or is it Meat Loaf?) was Jewish!
RD, XLNT as always.
Bill D, ditto, and I mean that in the non- Limbaugh-ian most way.
John on the Sunset Coast, I really like you and your thoughtful posts and refreshing view of things. The fact that you are Jewish doesn't bother me one whit. I hope you could feel the same about my Christianity. Some people let their RELIGION get in the road of just being people. I mean, why should someone's religion be a show stopper? And why should any one's atheism shut down communication? And why, after mauling a subject to death, can't we move on to other topics?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 10:44 PM

OK, I googled "hitler's speeches" and got this on the top page:
    The Christianity of Hitler revealed in his speeches and proclamations

    Compiled by Jim Walker
    Originated: 27 Feb. 1997
    Additions: 03 Jun. 2006

    Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today's Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian. However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. In the 1920s, Hitler's German Workers' Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a "Programme" with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a "positive" Christianity:

        24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on the principle: the common interest before self-interest.

    Hitler's speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of faith. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveals the strength of his Christian feelings:

    My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

    -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

Now, let's see you back up your assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 10:38 PM

I get most of my info on the Holocaust from my Mom, who was there.

I'll look up some of his speeches.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:26 PM

Thanks, Peace. I had wondered about the correct procedure.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 04:07 PM

She obviously has her heart in the right place......I think she should be given a 2nd chance.....or maybe a Barbie outfit.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 03:57 PM

Here's a picture of the nurse suspended for praying, fyi.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 03:53 PM

OK, Ron, you want quotes. Here are some from you, along with explanations of why they are rude:

"The media- induced religious frenzy" is in the mind of the rather imaginative poster."

Two problems here: 1) you are talking about me in the third person, using a disparaging nickname. I'm a member and my name is on my post. Common courtesy says you should answer me if you want to answer me, and not call me names if you want to be taken seriously. You've since done the same thing to Sleepy Rosie. 2) Instead of actually responding to what I said, you called me delusional. This is what is known as an ad hominem attack.

More from you:
"The intolerance of some Mudcat atheists--a perfect pairing to Falwell, etc.-- is real--and obvious to any objective observer. The imaginative poster is no doubt concerned about "unhealthy knowledge" also--and a member in good standing of the "freethinkers"--who thinks you should be free to express yourself--unless said poster thinks it's "unhealthy".

The problem here is that you are making a series of assumptions about my spiritual, philosophical, and intellectual life from the basis of absolutely no knowledge, except that I don't think health-care providers should offer to share their religious faith with their patients. As a matter of fact, you are more wrong than right in about the things you listed in that paragraph.

And you keep right on: "And he appears to be yet another Mudcatter who can't tell the difference between a offer ot pray and a "violation". Fortunately, outside of Mudcat, he's in the distinct minority--and obviously feels threatened by that.   Pobrecito."

Here, aside from more gratuitous insults and calling me baby, you are saying that the majority should decide what is right and what is wrong. That kind of thinking is somewhere on the slippery slope to civil rights abuses and worse. I'm now imagining you thinking, "Aha, he things an offer of prayer is the same as slavery." Please disabuse yourself of the notion before you engage your fingers. The reason I'm imagining that, since you want examples, is your response to Sinister Supporter when he made a similar comment. Perhaps, instead, you should notice that (I think) every actual medical professional who has chimed in has said there there are professional ethics rules that say it's a bad idea to bring your religion to work. Do you think they do that because a majority of the population would feel uncomfortable with it? Or is it just possible that being confronted by someone in a position of authority over you who is professing strong religious belief -- of any kind -- can be easily construed as having pressure brought to bear to follow in their faith, or at least the outward forms of it? And we're not talking a fanciful, imaginative fear of that, either; as I said, most of us who are not Christians have had unpleasant examples of being treated badly because we are not Christians. A few examples are gossip at work, not getting a job because of not professing belief at the right point in the conversation, police officers trying "save" people they stop on the street. The list goes on and on.


The reason I go through all this again is to demonstrate that good, intelligent, thoughtful people can come down on another side of an issue from you. You should keep that in mind, instead of saying things like:

"It's interesting that "freethinkers" have no problem being just as bigoted as any Bible Belt fundamentalist."

Best,
John

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 12:23 PM

Good grief, Ron. You've made your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:48 AM

Sorry the poster does not like logic. Perhaps that's another characteristic of the new atheism.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:36 AM

"...the number of UK adults who would be seen by an objective observer as "strongly Christian" is very small, probably under 5% of the adult population."

             There certainly seems to be more than 5% of the posters on this thread jumping all over the rational thinkers, so there must be something wrong with the way the report is describing "strongly Christian."

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM

"Sleepy Rosie", another courageous soul on Mudcat, perhaps objects to atheists being compared to Bible Belt fundamentalists. The shoe seems to fit perfectly.

If her objection is based on something else, please be so good as to give direct quotes--as I do. Perhaps she'd like to comment on "unhealthy knowledge", also, though I have no idea if she also endorses ignorance as a answer to questions, as at least one Mudcat atheist does.

Religious feeling in the UK turns out to be a complex subject.   I'd welcome any correction of the theory I am about to put forth, since, obviously, I'm not a UK citizen. But any correction should include facts.

Religious feeling in the UK turns out to be a complex subject.   According to the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance, which relied on a "government report", 74% of adults in the UK see themselves as Christians (3-2008).   But of that 74%, only about 7% actually attend church regularly. I have no idea how reliable either of these statistics are, since they are based on a "government report".

The BBC (28 Nov 2000) says a poll by National Centre of Social Research indicated 44% of the 3,000 surveyed said they had no religious affiliation.

Again, it's hard to know if this report has any validity.   I'd welcome a more reliable source for an answer.

However, if the BBC survey had an value at all, you could be sure the 44% did not attend church regularly. And of the 56% remainder, even if most of them might be seen as Christian, there must be Jews and Moslems also.

Of the 56%, it's likely only a small percentage actually attended church regularly.

By either of these, the number of UK adults who would be seen by an objective observer as "strongly Christian" is very small, probably under 5% of the adult population. Any better figure would be welcome.

But if these surveys have any validity whatsoever, even if all the strong Christians in the UK protested vehemently against the threat to the nurse, it's hard to see how they would have the power to cause a "religious frenzy".   They would be drowned out by the overwhelming majority of the population which is not strongly Christian.

So the pressure to reinstate the nurse must include many who would not see themselves as strong Christians.   Or does the tiny minority of the population which is strongly Christian dictate to the rest of the population which is not?

It seems that if there were general public pressure to reinstate the nurse, many who are not "strong Christians" would be part of it.

So the "religious frenzy" must be something else. Two obvious candidates are a general sense of decency and common sense.

It would not be surprising if atheist Mudcatters do not recognize this.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:50 AM

Gosh, is this silly thread still going?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:05 AM

Do you really believe an offer of prayer is a violation?
What other recognised violations would you compare it to?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:22 PM

'"And he appears to be yet another Mudcatter who can't tell the difference between a offer ot pray and a "violation".'


          An offer ot pray is a violation...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM

Ron Davies, IMO there is absolutely no justifiable place for personal criticisms directed at 'Sinister Supporter' or 'Insane Beard' or whatever handle he prefers to use (as is his perogative). Disagreeing strongly with someone is one thing, but there can be no justification for descending into slagging someone off, simply for expressing views which you do not happen to share.
And despite your somewhat bizzare and unprovoked continued campagn of vitriol directed at this individual on this thread, I hope that you (and indeed others here) have noticed that at not one time, has he descended to your level of 'debate' and responded to your comments about him, in kind.
In fact I'm pretty surprised at the degree of restraint he demonstrates when responding to your unrelenting ad hominem attacks.