BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM

Sorry Bill.
That was SS.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 01:34 PM

"Bill said "Bullshit...."

Bill most certainly did not....just because you don't like my reasoning, you even attribute other's posts to me?

And, by the way....I am NOT a "fundamentalist atheist".

People who just happen to disagree with your position, Keith, get labeled kinda heavily.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 12:18 PM

And as I said, if you don't want the prayer, you should be able to--gracefully--decline it.

Without whining about "violation".

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 12:16 PM

"any more than if....blow job". It's the poster who didn't read it right.   Not since he can't read it-- but since he refuses to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 12:13 PM

"The media- induced religious frenzy" is in the mind of the rather imaginative poster.

The intolerance of some Mudcat atheists--a perfect pairing to Falwell, etc.-- is real--and obvious to any objective observer. The imaginative poster is no doubt concerned about "unhealthy knowledge" also--and a member in good standing of the "freethinkers"--who thinks you should be free to express yourself--unless said poster thinks it's "unhealthy".

And he appears to be yet another Mudcatter who can't tell the difference between a offer ot pray and a "violation". Fortunately, outside of Mudcat, he's in the distinct minority--and obviously feels threatened by that.   Pobrecito.

It's interesting that "freethinkers" have no problem being just as bigoted as any Bible Belt fundamentalist.

No surprise however that they refuse to recognize it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 11:56 AM

"So now offer of a prayer is equivalent to offer of a blowjob."

Ron, if you think that was what Sinister meant (it certainly isn't what he said), then you need a course in remedial reading. And thinking. And debating. And common sense. It certainly decreases your value as a conversationalist.

We all know that a vast majority of the people in our society are Christian. That doesn't make it OK for them to impose themselves on others, but most non-Christians have unpleasant experiences of that. And I say this as someone who loves many Christians dearly -- I am not anti-Christian. We all also know that an organization faced with media-inspired religious fervor has no choice, in our society, but to back down.

If you think the article that started this discussion wasn't written with a media-inspired religious frenzy in mind, then you REALLY need a course in remedial reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 10:38 AM

What ever you think about the ownership of the media, they will not publish stuff that is not news.
Had the nurse been suspended for failing in her duties or some misdmeanour it would not be a story.
They ran it because they knew it would surprise people, and it did.
Bill said "Bullshit. Most people would be dumbfounded by such an obvious abuse of a professional position - any more than if the nurse were offer a blow-job. "
Well no they would not, and they were not.
The patient herself was not.
They were dumbfounded at her treatment.
You are entitled to your views, but do not kid your self that they are representative even of atheists.
Only among the fundamentalist atheists who have been venting their intolerance here.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 10:18 AM

"...more likely that a Christian prayer..."

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 10:16 AM

"...sacrificing a chicken". Please be sure to let us know when that happens to you. Should be a good story.

It's actually just a bit more likely than a Christian prayer will be offered. And if you don't desire it, you should be able to gracefully decline the offer. Hope it's not too much of a strain.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 10:12 AM

Living in a smorgasbord society like we have in the US, that allows one to pick one's religion, there's no reason to suspect that the nurse and the patient will both be addicted to the same religion. What if the nurse was a practitioner of Voodoo, and the patient woke up to find the medical professional sacraficing a chicken?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 08:49 AM

So now offer of a prayer is equivalent to offer of a blowjob.

This shows how rational some of the Mudcat atheists are. Perhaps they had best stay on Mudcat when expressing such views. I wonder what their neighbors would say if they ventured this to them. Folkies have a reputation for, among other things, a strong allegiance to the "looney Left".   This appears to be Exhibit A--or perhaps just one in an amazingly long list.

Obviously there is no such thing as an "average atheist" or "average" anything--so it's a pointless expression.   However, I 've already told you about my wife, who calls herself an atheist, and when she was in hospital, declined to participate in a prayer, but when asked if the nurse could pray for her elsewhere, said fine. Like Kendall, she feels that "any positive energy is good".   As any rational person would.

By the way, Sin, how's it going? I call you Sin, just as you can call me Ron. I'd think your Sinister Supporter would be a bit uncomfortable. Most men would want a "Dexter Supporter" also.   But whatever floats your boat.

It's more than a bit startling--though perhaps it shouldn't be--this is Mudcat--that a full month after the decision in the nurse's favor, and a month after I suggested it was time for Mudcatters to admit that common sense had prevailed, some Mudcatters show no signs of even a glimmer of common sense.   If one can't tell the difference between an offer of prayer and evangelizing--or the Spanish Inquisition-- it doesn't look likely that sense will prevail on Mudcat any time soon in this matter.

Admittedly we have had some entertaining digressions in various Mudcatters' fantasies--on Hitler, for instance. And to hear about the dangers of "unhealthy knowledge".    It's amazing that some people who no doubt see themselves as "freethinkers" can be better described as non-thinkers. Always interesting to hear a "free-thinker" endorse ignorance. That in itself is just about worth the price of admission. Perhaps that's the new improved atheism. Sounds like it would fit right into one of the late lamented Jerry Falwell's congregations.

But, as Keith quoted from the article about the settlement, for some, prayer is considered an "integral part of the healing process". And if an ailing Mudcatter, confronted with the terrible danger of having a nurse pray for him or her, feels it is not part of his or her healing process, that Mudcatter can always tell the nurse in attendance to "stuff your superstition", or whatever charming phrase you may care to use. I'm sure the nurse will not inflict a prayer upon you.   Except possibly in private. And be aware you are in grave danger of that insidious crime. But please don't lose more than a few weeks of sleep over it. Unless you have to.

But the fact remains that for some, prayer is welcomed. So it was a reasonable offer--as the Trust has recognized.   Since evidently common sense is more easily found there than on Mudcat.

Indeed, only the more stubborn--not to say rabid, of course--perish the thought--anti-religion Mudcattters (and some professional debaters) seem to be still objecting. Actually their number-- a month after the fact--is impressive.

But never let it be said that Mudcatters are deterred by anything as mundane as common sense from righteous bellyaching--ad nauseam, so to speak.

Though it is a bit too bad that these Mudcatters can't summon up comparable enthusiasm to actually address a significant issue--and actually improve the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:51 AM

And 500!!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM

I never imagined this thread would run like this when I started it !

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:30 AM

PFR - your stuff is
very hard reading because you
insist on putting
it in very short and
staccato
pieces which have the line
breaks in the wrong
places.

Do to speak like
that? Or have
you a desire to be
recognised as some kind
of
poet? LO
L!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 06:27 AM

BTW.. I live in the area this happened..
And I'm certainly very concious of the local politics
and dominant conservative culture
that would 'encourage' our local health authority officials
to resign themselves that a tactical withdrawal might be their best
face saving tactic..
under such pressure..

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 06:26 AM

Your average atheist would not be disturbed by a nurse who, after tending to his needs, aked if he would like a prayer.

Bullshit. Most people would be dumbfounded by such an obvious abuse of a professional position - any more than if the nurse were offer a blow-job.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 06:17 AM

"This story only hit the news because the media recognised that the action against the nurse would be considered exraordinary by most people.
That is what made it news."

errmm.. which media would that be than..???

not the right wing 'moral majority' sponsored and owned
global corporate 'god fearing' media
by any chance..

g'night...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:56 AM

John P,
Keith, what makes you think that most would not agree with Bill's views? I certainly agree with them.

This story only hit the news because the media recognised that the action against the nurse would be considered exraordinary by most people.
That is what made it news.
There followed an outpouring of public opinion which led to the nurse being reinstated, with a statement that she had done nothing wrong which was a rebuke to her accusers.

Your average atheist would not be disturbed by a nurse who, after tending to his needs, aked if he would like a prayer.
Bill would have insisted that her bosses "addressed" her behaviour.
I think that is an extreme point of view.
Like a fundamentalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 01:30 AM

Thanks, pfr.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 10:03 PM

hi kat..

episode 6, the series finale....

more intelligent script than usual for this type of 'pop' entertainment.

[ahem.. torrent ???..]


..its certainly a definite & positive test of the chaplains faith..


.. wonder how our local celebrity 'prayer nurse'
and the Hospital Admin board
would have coped in that situation...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 10:02 PM

" Messianic Jewish literature, .. ???

Was this "Jews for Jesus" literature? I had the bad fortune to be on a city bus one day years ago when some guy got on, waited till the bus started, then whipped out a worn bible and began preaching "Jews for Jesus" theory at everyone in the rear of the bus.
I will give him credit for guts, because several people were very close to throwing him off the bus after 10 minutes of this. I got off soon thereafter.

Had almost forgotten that......

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:45 PM

Well, feck that...I just tried to watch one of the episode and it is ONLY available to watch in the UK. Wonder if I can go through an anonymiser which is in the UK?! I see there are some small bits on youtube.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:44 PM

There are a lot of us who have posted about our own experiences with positive thinking, etc. who would never impose those on someone for whom we were caring in a nursing capacity. Hang in there, Bill, several of us agree with your take on this case.

punkfolkrocker...you canNOT just drop some tantalising bits and leave us to wonder!**bg** Which episode was it, please??!! I have found some online, but want to watch that one, esp.! Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:53 PM

oops.. I forgot to mention the werewolf was Jewish

[actualy quite an astute and well written series for older teens
and middle aged fantasy horror fans]

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:27 PM

My wife used to take art classes. A woman of a mainstream Christian faith somehow found out my wife was Jewish. She shared that a son-in-law was Jewish also.

One day this woman brought my wife a book of prayers, which my wife took and thanked her for. Each prayer, at the end of it referenced Christianity or a link to Jesus. I suggested - you don't tell my wife - that she return the book, but she didn't want to hurt her feelings.

Over the next few weeks this she gave my wife magazines and other Messianic Jewish literature, and began telling her about he SiL's relationship with Jesus.. The light dawned. At the next class she returned all the books, magazines and tracts, and explained she was happy with her Jewishness, but thanked the woman for thinking of her. The woman never spoke to her again during the whole time they were in the class together.

I had a Born Again customer who asked me if I was "right with God?" I told him I was right with God in my way, just as he was right with God in his way. I told him that I didn't talk politics or religion with my customers. We never did again. A couple of years later, when I had changed territories, I met him again at a sales open house. He asked me the same question. I gave the same basic answer, to which he said, "I'm not your customer anymore." He didn't miss a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:01 PM

As I live in the West Country,
not too far from where this all happened;
I find it quite amusing to watch the last episode
of BBC3 comedy drama series "Being Human"
A key scene, set in a Bristol Hospital..
the Resident Chaplain offers bedside prayer
to a seriously injured trauma patient vampire
and his emotionally distraught werewolf friend.
What happens next might have been an equally provocative inspiration
for a 'serious' mudcat discussion.
In the light of real exents,
this fiction set so close to home
is all rather too surreal !!!!???


[probably still available on BBC3 watch again..]

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 05:03 PM

OK, I've resisted 'til now. Ain't it amazing what a wonderful work that kindly women began with a simple, well intentioned offer to appeal to the Divine on behalf of a women with an infirmity? Because of the boldness (?!) of her faith and a concern in her heart for those she has the charge of caring for physical needs, she offered to pray. That is not a new and strange idea here in the Western world. It is a scene repeated thousands of times each and every day.

Look at the discussion we are having! Some here have shared the hope they have in God. Some have affirmed the power of positive thinking. Some have shared experiences of healing, do to the same, or at least an uplifting of their spirits. And some have been downright hostile to the idea. Some have perceived this as a foisting off some pernicious religion or cultic entanglement. Simply amazing!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 04:43 PM

All this kicking of shins reminds me of years ago when a new 'girl' was hired at work. I quickly caught on that she was aggressively espousing her views to everyone so I was ready when one day she asked, appropo of nothing:

'Ebbie', are you saved?

I looked at her in silence for a moment then said, I consider that question extremely rude and I advise you to stop it immediately.

She said not another word.


It ensued a few weeks later that her father who had been hired as the preacher/director of some kind of smalll church absconded with the money and the family left town forthwith. I ended up feeling bad for her; there was no way that she was responsible for her father's crookedness.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:59 PM

Keith, what makes you think that most would not agree with Bill's views? I certainly agree with them.

And calling him a fundamentalist is a specious semantic reversal. It reminds me of all the folks that say atheists have a religion. Just stop it. It doesn't add anything to any discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:51 PM

But, after due consideration, her employers found no fault with her behaviour.
Yours seems to be an extreme opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:31 PM

Hmmm... interesting. The quote you present did not specifically deal with whether she, or other nurses, should alter how they 'ask' or 'suggest' prayer to patients.

All 3 quotes seem to skirt the issue. You can agree with them (as I do agree with their basic thrust) and still not come to terms with the basic issue.
I wonder who spoke to whom about it all.
I never thought that it should be necessary to fire her...just to address certain behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:10 PM

Should read
Bill, most would NOT agree with your....

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:09 PM

Bill, most would agree with your fundamentalist views.
Nurse Petrie's employers do not.
From The TimesFebruary 7, 2009

In a statement last night, North Somerset Primary Care Trust said that it recognised Mrs Petrie had been acting in the "best interests of her patients", that nurses did not have to "set aside their faith" in the workplace and could "continue to offer high quality care for patients while remaining committed to their beliefs". The trust also admitted that, for some, prayer is recognised as an "integral part of health care and the healing process".

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 02:34 PM

and the difference between 'fundamentalist' and just 'plain' Christian is crucial? Offering your religious beliefs in that context is just not appropriate.
As I mentioned earlier, hospitals usually have spiritual help available for anyone who asks. A nurse can pray silently, (I am assured God will hear) but unless specifically requested should stick to nursing.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 01:34 PM

She did not express fundamentalist views and was not trying to convert patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 01:29 PM

Neither evangelical nor fundamentalist.

From interview in The Guardian:

The community nurse, who lives in Weston-super-Mare and carries out home visits, has been suspended by North Somerset primary care trust and could lose her job. Petrie, a Baptist who has two children, said she had not forced her beliefs on anyone, but had simply asked if the woman would like a prayer said for her.

She said: "I'm not angry, and I understand if people don't believe in the way that I do. But I am upset because I enjoy this job and it [prayer] is a valuable part of the care I give.

"I became a Christian 10 years ago after my mother died. My faith got stronger and I realised God was doing amazing things in my life. I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted."

She said she had seen her supplications have real effects on patients, including a Catholic woman whose urine infection cleared up days after she said a prayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 11:32 AM

Keith A....If "fundamental evangelism" is not common in Britain, I can see why you wonder at my concern... I repeat: I do understand that 'good works' are being done by some...or even many, if you prefer, but the following quote illustrates MY point.

from this site

"A missionary in a rural area of Indian writes: "A village worker, doctor, or nurse, must be first and foremost an evangelist. If she has only her professional abilities to offer, she will soon become discouraged and defeated in the face of the apathy, indifference, and ignorance." Evangelism includes service, but it is more than service. The missionary who has been gripped by the thrill of evangelism knows the power of the Gospel to convert and redeem."

This IS a quite common attitude. It IS making the basic point of service to be evangelism, even though 'good' is being done. The group who suggests that even modern Japan 'needs' Christianity doesn't even make much attempt at 'service', assuming I suppose, that being converted IS a good all by itself.

It is not necessary to "give way on the value of christian volunteers" to also understand that the primary value should be on the 'volunteer' aspect, and that far too many use that to promote their religion. The Mennonites I saw in Kansas understood that...would that other groups did!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 11:24 AM

If you're lying in a hospital, and you wake up to find a nurse standing next to your bed, mumbling to herself, surely you'd wonder what else she'd been up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 10:38 AM

Also from the original link.

Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.

That sounds pretty evangelical to me.

Evangelicals aren't that rare. I have, in the past, attended services in both Ware and in Cornwall. They just don't have as much political clout in the UK as is the case in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:29 AM

From original link.
She insists she has never forced her own religious beliefs on anyone but politely inquired if the elderly patient wanted her to pray for her – either in the woman's presence or after the nurse had left the patient's home.
Neither evangelical nor fundamentalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:15 AM

Here in Britain fundamentalist evangelicals are rare

The nurse in question was one such.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:08 AM

Obviously, I am not claiming that atheism was the main reason people fled their own countries. But atheism, since it makes a personality cult much easier, makes it virtually impossible to put a check on bad ideas of the God-substitute--e.g. Hitler: anti-Semitism, as well as of course starting World War II;    Mao:   the Great Sparrow Campaign, if not the entire Great Leap Forward.

And nobody is claiming non-atheistic states are perfect. Nobody is advocating a theistic state, for instance. Obviously, the best idea is neither a theistic nor an atheistic state.

But the fact remains that atheistic states have a perfect record of failure; non-atheistic states do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:03 AM

I am being forced to backtrack.
Here in Britain fundamentalist evangelicals are rare, but I accept you have a few over there.
About a third of the whole planet are christians so it will not be hard to find a few wackos.
Intolerance to gays is rife in China, N. Korea, and was in Soviet Union.
I do not give way on the value of christian volunteers.
Not evangelising, but feeding, protecting and providing medical care and sanitation to millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 11:50 PM

"...is that the flaw..."

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 11:48 PM

People with no imagination use their own names?   Uh, not exactly. More like, people who are willing to stand behind every word they write.

Now, "Sinister Supporter"--that's an interesting one.   Please excuse me for asking: is that a jockstrap which only supports the left side?   Sounds rather impractical. Be sure to let us know how it works out.



Regarding atheist regimes killing their own people: sure is intriguing that every atheist regime, without exception, has been a disaster for its own citizens. Some citizens have felt so strongly about it that they have fled their country. And sometimes the regime has killed them while they were attempting to leave.

Sounds like there must be a fatal flaw in atheism.   My guess--only a guess--if that the flaw is that atheism makes it easy for the ruler to substitute himself as a God-figure: e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and in North Korea, both the current ruler and his father.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 11:30 PM

"Hitler's regime was religious."   More unsupported tripe--from one of our favorite sources.

He tolerated it-- barely --and tried to use it. Realized there were enough people who wanted him dead already--and, correctly, felt if he tried to carry out his real wishes he would further increase their number. And anybody who did one iota of research would know that he only tolerated it if the religious community in question did not oppose him--in anything. When some religious people did, he had his thugs take care of them.   

If you disagree with this, let's have some actual facts--even though it might go against your credo as a Mudcat atheist--to whine about religion forever, without actually having anything to back it up but your own prejudice. (This of course does not include Bill D and Amos, who believe in actual debate.)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 03:23 PM

"I don't think anyone says that atheists can't be horrible dictators who murder their own and neighboring people en masse. It's just that there are a lot fewer of those"

Well - DUH. There are fewer atheists than people who believe in a higher power of some sort. About 85% of the population believe. The rest don't. So you have a smaller pool to choose from.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 03:03 PM

I don't think anyone says that atheists can't be horrible dictators who murder their own and neighboring people en masse. It's just that there are a lot fewer of those (you got 2; Hitler's regime was religious whether he individually was or not) than there were horrible dictators yada yada who drew their authority from their god(s). You don't see the jack-booted thugs calling There Are No Gods as they bash in your door under those regimes, either, the way goons would call on their appropriate deity or prophet if they were on religious business. Look at the catholic / protestant warring that led my ancestors here
Remember, you have to include under that all kings and emperors who may only have killed in the tens, but who had absolute power over their subjects by divine right, and used their holy texts or strings of knots or whatever to justify what was perfectly normal to them then but which we now abhor, like slavery, lopping off ears, and all that went under that yada yada above. As the community has become global people are now likely to use other phrases in those selfsame texts to show how slavery (for example) is bad, now that it isn't normal any more. That is intelligence and education working against religion, and it's an uphill battle.
The ancient Arabs had a ton of knowledge that the ancient Christians destroyed as contrary to their current interpretations of their text, which is actually just a different version of the same text anyway, but try telling them that sometimes. We've spent centuries trying to rediscover all that, and haven't done it yet.
Only in the Vatican would there be, and in fact there is a round table going on *right now* about what to think about Darwinian evolution. I mean, really. It's the same thing they had to do to accept that the Earth isn't the center of what is now called the solar system. In this day and age? I am at a loss for words that I'm expected not to think that positively medieval!

THAT's the harm we fight, you see, not so much the idea that you can go hand out clothes but they usually do come with Bibles, and that if you wanted to you could do that kind of thing with a secular organization without having to worry about whether the child you're helping has been "saved" (really ironic in that context, eh?).
Sure there are do-gooders in religious organizations. They would flourish in secular do-good organizations, though. You don't need religion to do the right thing. You don't need religion to *define* the right thing, either, as per above. Just join a do-good organization like The Peace Corps, or Doctors [and now there are other professions doing this] without Borders, or your local refugee relocation center or library. But it's a waste of your effort to join the Boy Scouts where you have to be straight and have faith, or to join a church just to have a social life. The harm outweighs the good, and a lot of your effort will go someplace that isn't the child your society clothes.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 01:53 PM

Yes, I agree that the issue is much larger than the individual nurse. However, arguing about whether or not Christians and
Christianity is good or bad isn't going to address the larger issues. I'd love to talk about the constitutional issues. I'd like to talk about the ethics of sharing your belief system with non-believers. I'd love to talk about whether or not Christians, or non-Christians, are discriminated against. But there's precious little useful discussion of these issues -- or any issue that can actually be discussed intelligently -- in this thread. Arguing from and about generalities isn't really investigating anything.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 01:03 PM

John...it was evident at the outset that the issue was wider than just this one nurse. She, of course, broke the rules...and was being 'punished' for it. Seems simple...but...

But she and others did not agree that 'the rule' was fair & reasonable, and there IS an immediate issue over where & in what circumstances any person with strong religious beliefs should 'offer' them to others.

This is a complex, many-layered debate...going even to the interpretation of the US Constitution. Simply stating the obvious...that there are good and bad adherents of all sets of ideas... does little to shed light on the underlying issues.

plus...this is Mudcat, where divergent views are tolerated and threads will drift.