BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:34 AM

I was not sneering at anyone who does good work and does it quietly without waving a banner. What I am heartily sick of is folk waviing "I'm a Christian of course" around as though it was some kind of magic flamin wand behaving as thought if you hit folk around the head often enough with it you can change thier thoughts.

Surely it is much better to walk quietly till someone says "What is it i see in you" then you can quietly say what it is you believe and why it made a difference to you.

also other people branding folk as rabid athiests is downright insulting many of these good people have a very strong personal faith it may not be the speakers it may not be mine but it is thiers and should be respedcted as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:22 AM

Megan,
"So strange it is always someone else doing the good work none of the quotes began "I have""
Do I detect a sneer?
Do you mean that there are not so many christian volunteers?
A small proportion I grant you, but those I know come from a very small circle of aquantances. Scaled up globally you can see how christians are able to fund and staff so many of the 3rd world hospitals and aid work mentioned.
Perhaps you meant that you do not believe me.
I could be lying but I have pm d you Gill's e mail address. She would love to send you photos and stories. She was not with a big organisation, just a christian couple from Peurto Rico who set up the little school and kitchen. Sennegal is Muslim so they must not teach any christianity.
Another "someone else" I know is also a mutual friend of Jacqui.
Tony from Hertford.
When a Mercy Ship is berthed in UK he and his wife give up weekends to do maintainance work.
(Mercy Ships are floating operating theatres that ply 3rd world coasts, crewed and funded by.....need I say.)

Did your sneer also apply to Greg who claimed to know "quite a few" atheists who do such work?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:12 PM

Megan, you don't read very carefully.

Also, I seem to recall that anybody who actually said he or she had done good works was to be tagged as a hypocrite--a Matthew quote, as I recall.

Nice try.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:50 PM

The "fantasy inferno" is in the mind of the rather imaginative atheist with the delightfully appropriate handle--who has no way to try to argue other than pathetic caricatures.

Believers in the 'fantasy inferno" are as much typical of all Christians as Hitler, Stalin and Mao are typical of all atheists.




Also, Bill, you don't want to get into the question of whether atheists or Christians have caused more harm. You will have to start out with the above trio--who have caused more deaths than anybody else in the history of the world---and you will never get out of that hole.

Now, rather than go down that blind alley, how about looking at the charity question from the viewpoint of somebody who receives that charity?   Just why do you think it mattered one iota to somebody helped by a church or its members in trying to recover from Katrina, for instance, whether the charity was done for religious reasons or simple human altruism?

That's why your point about motivation is a total red herring.

You are completely correct in noting that much of the benefit of Christian charity is due to the fact that many Christians are organized. In fact, that is a very good point--in favor of organized religion.   Thanks for that.

If atheists were as effective, they might have a leg to stand on in criticizing Christians.

As it is, they seem to take the "freethinker" label a little too seriously --with the result that they will never be organized--since they can hardly agree on anything.

So if you want to get into a petty and pointless contest on who does more good in the world, atheists have no chance. Sorry.

But that's not my subject in the least. All I want is a definite statement by all the Mudcat atheists commenting here that the world is better off with Christianity and Christians.

Which, aside from your posts, seems to be terribly painful for the Mudcat atheists--the others, therefore, are showing remarkably clear signs of being rabidly anti-religion.

Unsurprisingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:56 PM

So strange it is always someone else doing the good work none of the quotes began "I have"

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:40 PM

Bill, please do give us some examples of bad works of Christianity in the world today.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:37 PM

Those notions, premises and fantasies hurt no one but ourselves.
And, if we did not have them, there would be a great shortage of people running hospitals in Africa, teaching street children (Gill, my partner's daughter is just back from doing that in Sennegal), running a global missing person database (Salvation Army) and doing it all for nothing.
As I said earlier, you should celebrate our delusion because the world would be much poorer without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:27 AM

How can a religion be in any way good that propagates the notion that all non-believers are going to spend eternity in a fantasy inferno presided over by sadistic goblins? The whole premise is fucked from the start, likewise anyone faithful to such a flatulent rhetoric that holds this splendid life we share here on Planet Earth to be merely a preparation for a mythical hereafter.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 12:30 PM

Red Herring? I think not.... the question indicates that motivation is a hard thing to pin down.

"The result of Christianity is that many good works are being done."

Yes...of course... but if we are to judge by results, then we must also include the sad stories of all the bad works done in the name of, not just Christianity, but religion in general. This gets us into one of those "I can find more petty examples than YOU to illustrate MY point" games, and solves little.


The relevant point, in my way of thinking, is that religion in general provides many people a way of coping and answering those questions which are just plain hard! The historical evolution of religious thought mirrors the concerns of human progress everywhere, and I can not even imagine a time when religion will not be a major element of society.
   Thus, the good works that is done BY Christianity ...or, rather, by Christians seeking to express their charitable feelings, using their beliefs as a focus, need to be acknowledged and appreciated as good deeds, but not as some sort of rationale for validating the underlying belief system, as is commonly done!
(Yeah...I know... that's a tedious, philosopher's nit-picking, when you wanted a simple "yes, I admit it"... but that's not how it works. The whole issue is too complex, and some questions start sounding like "have you stopped beating your wife yet?".)



(so,,,am I starting to sound UN-sensible yet?)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:02 AM

It should be obvious-- to anybody who reads carefully--what I said. Specifically:   "Nobody has a monopoly on virtue". Unfortunately Mudcatters are not famous for reading carefully--to say the least.





Bill, I'm so sorry for having called you sensible. Please forgive me; I promise it won't happen again.


As you know, my recent criticism of atheists was not aimed at you-- or Amos.

But it's fascinating that you are virtually alone, among self-professed atheists, in even acknowledging that Christians have done and continue to do good.

Those who criticized the nurse so vehemently have responded with a deafening silence.

And your question about religious imperative is a red herring. My father always said: "We pay off on results".   The result of Christianity is that many good works are being done.
I want an acknowledgment--from all atheists--that therefore the world is better off with Christianity.   That's my only issue at this point.   But it's pulling teeth to get anything of the kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:38 PM

Was she suspended by her thumbs? I understand that's a good method of persuasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM

(Is claiming #400 a good thing?)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:34 PM

Oh, fer Pete's sake....since I have been called 'sensible'...('bout time!)...let me say: Of course good, worthwhile things have been done by Christian and Christian organizations.

Now, what I really wonder is: would people have done those things without the pressure of religious imperative to spur them to action? Aren't some needs so obvious that things like 'food for the hungry' and 'care of the lepers' and other charities would be seen whether in thename of 'X' or not?

What religions provide is organization. I have personally seen (in Kansas), Mennonite groups be the first on the scene after tornados...helping in rescues, feeding folks and helping strangers rebuild. And, let me add...they did this with NO preaching... they just helped and went home. Sure...there are aspects of their faith that help focus their attitude TO such good deeds, but I 'tend' to feel that these are people who would have that basic attitude anyway, and would have been a part of some other group...as the father of a friend of mine was a member of the local Civil Defense organization, and was often working beside the Mennonites!

   I give credit to ANYONE who sets aside time to do good, and who contributes $$$ to good works. Unfortunately, it is not possible to do a double-blind test to see if the same amount of good would get done if there were no religious groups. I guess we should just be grateful for good deeds, and keep the rationale for religion itself as a separate issue.

Now...am I still sensible, Ron? ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,strummer
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:01 PM

Was she suspended for praying or for imposing her beliefs on people who didn't want to hear them? It's not the same thing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM

The study focused on Lesotho and Zambia, which had HIV prevalence rates of 23.2% and 17% respectively in 2005. It found that Christian hospitals and health centres are providing about 40% of HIV care and treatment services in Lesotho and almost a third of the HIV/AIDS treatment facilities in Zambia are run by FBOs.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/notes/2007/np05/en/index.html
While popularly held beliefs--and characterizations by US government officials--proport that many churches/temples/synagogues/mosques/etc. and faith-based organizations give money internationally, studies and news reports found that the overwhelming majority of religious-based international aid is Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith-based_foreign_aid

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:53 AM

Jacqui, I agree with you that we just do not know of all the good that so many secret Samaritans do.
Where Christians would be missed is in the field of voluntary work.
Many , like me, do little or nothing but certainly the big organisations, even the secular ones, are mainly staffed and run by people who would call themselves christians.E.g. Oxfam, Save The Children, Red Cross, Tear Fund, Salvation Army, Christian Aid....

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM

I think the point Ron's making is that there is a lot of good work done by Christians, jacqui, that would be missed if they weren't around to do it - not that the only people who do good works are Christians. That's how I read him.

There are many good people, of every religion and none. Just as there are bad people, of every religion and none. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on Good or Bad. IMHO, of course!

Cheers M'dears!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

Are you saying, Ron, that only Christians are charitable? There are many other religions in this world doing good for others and, I dare say, many non Christians who give their share of cash and time to help those less fortunate.

I just get a little tired of anybody, regardless of their religion or lack of it, telling what they do and how good they are being, doing it. If I make some sort of charitable move it is satisfaction enough to know that I have done it - it doesn't get broadcast around to show what a good person I am.

Read the parable of the Widow's Mite.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:05 AM

So you know for certain who is an athiest or anything else him here man yer awfy clever. ye should bottle it an mak yer fortune

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:53 AM

I would agree that some of our more aggressive atheists might possibly not take kindly to having their own hypocrisy exposed. Just a guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:05 AM

That shows how little you know about the people who post here you silly boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:34 PM

So after patting yourselves on the back for supposedly exposing Christian hypocrisy, perhaps you can tell us where the funds and other assistance which now come from Christian groups would come from in the ideal world some atheists envision---one without Christianity.

Or perhaps some atheists may have their own hypocrisy exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:39 AM

Well put Megan.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:49 AM

Matthew 6:3
But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:40 AM

I know well by experience that people of no faith do good works, and that many who profess faith are found wanting,
but
in the real world the real people working with the poor and dispossessed in third world countries and western inner cities are overwhelmingly and disproportionately Christian.
Go see.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM

Nobody has a monopoly on virtue.   Nor on aggressive bigotry---though some of the atheists around here have brainwashed themselves into thinking that all Christians are narrow-minded dolts.

To find this creature, some of the atheists might want to look in the mirror.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

Rig - You are as narrow minded as the fundimentalists you despise. You know that don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM

Good people do good things.
Other people go to church.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Aggie Nostic
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

Good People do good things.
Christians and other religions do not hold a monopoly
on good work and charity.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

Ebbie - I think that Greg may be referring to the fact that their are other religions than Christians out there doing good works. It isn't something that only Christians do.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

Before I became a Christian I have always asked Christians this question if you can't make somthing out of nothing then who made God!
I know that exists but I still have that annoying question an as yet now one has answered me they change the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:07 PM

I have a problem with equating 'good people' with Christian. I remember a retirement village where my brother in law was the superintendent of construction. He and my sister took me over to see the impressive campus. My sister said, feelingly, 'And only Christians are allowed to live here.'

I said, 'You mean, no Jews?'

She said, 'You know, I hadn't thought of that. My guess is that they mean, only people who profess a spiritual lifestyle.'

Greg F, you say that 'worldwide you'll find vastly more non-Christians than Christiasn doing good'. How do you come about that information? I should think that atheists don't group together to accomplish things the way that Christians do. For one thing, how does one contact an atheist?

'Secular', on the other hand, may well draw any and all camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM

God bless you

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

How many atheiists[sic] do you come across who do this.

Quite a few, actually. You don't need to have an imaginary friend to do good works.

And you'll find, worldwide, vastly more non-christians than christians doing good works.

None of this is anti-christian- but by the same token christians shouldn't get a free pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:15 AM

Drat hit the wrong button. I wouldnt bother asking for an explanation if i were you aggie the ways of the cat are mysterious and certainly idiosyncratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 04:14 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 09 - 03:24 AM

I atttend a Cof E parish church.
I know people from that small congregation who have worked in third world countries. Aid work not prosletising.
My partner is a member of a Methodist chapel. One family and one individual there have done the same.
How many atheiists do you come across who do this.
Check out the people running the big international NGO aid agencies.
Overwhelmingly Christian.
We may all be deluded fools, but you should celebrate our delusion because the world would be poorer without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:38 PM

It just would be nice if some of the atheists around here would see their way clear to actually admitting specific positive aspects of Christians and Christianity.

So far, it doesn't appear likely any time soon.

Some are sensible--like Bill D and Amos.   But there seem to be quite a few who have stood the Monty Python warning on its head. For them it's:   "You always expect the Spanish Inquisition". Even in an offer of prayer by a nurse.

Even the fact that the issue has been resolved in the nurse's favor does not stop their dark mutterings about "violation"--showing lively imagination but little else.

And as I've said more than once, I'm not in the least religious---but the imbalance around here is striking, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 03:18 PM

Ron,
I'm not getting what you are trying to do. Are you saying that people are anti-Christian because they don't think a nurse, who has been told not to, offers to pray for a patient? Are you saying that folks have to come up with positive things to say about Christians, which really doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, or they are anti-Christian?

Of course lots of Christians are good people who do good things. So?

Of course there are lots of bad Christians.

Of course there are a lot of good non-Christians, and bad ones too. So?

Are you one of those people who think Christians are being discriminated against if they are told they can't practice their religion at any time they want, in any situation, no matter who else is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Marion
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:32 AM

If anyone wants to hear from a lot of nurses on this incident, there's a thread about it at allnurses.com : thread about suspensions for prayer offer. It's a very long thread, but is broken up into sections so it shouldn't take too long to load.

I'm an RN myself. My opinion is that it wasn't appropriate for the nurse to offer to pray, but that suspending her for it is a little excessive (unless there's a lot more history than we know).   There are nursing shortages everywhere, and we can't afford to be losing people from "the bedside" over problems that could be solved with some sort of remedial education.

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:58 PM

Ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM

Um, Ok, Sleepie Roise. You can always PM me if you prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:11 PM

Nurse praying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izOPM5keD6w

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

Nickhere,

Apologies for not responding as promised.
I did begin to compose a reply to your last post.
But after having seen some of the personally directed comments stuck up on this thread recently, I'm content to leave us 'agreeing to disagree!'

Cheers, Rosie :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:25 PM

Still having a hard time listing good things Christianity and Christians have done, it seems.

Mudcatters not anti-religion, especially anti-Christian?   Of course not, perish the thought. It's just that all the people so willing to criticize the nurse now have broken computers so they can't possibly get on to tell us about accomplishments of Christians.   Not that they were traumatized as children by being forced to go to Chapel for years, or anything similar. No indeed.

Well, I'll help you a bit. Can only tell you about the US situation, mostly, though I suspect somebody can tell you about the UK.


1)   The US civil rights movement--from abolitionism through the 60's and beyond is heavily grounded in Christianity.   In the UK you may be familiar with Wilberforce; in the US virtually the entire abolitionist movement right through Rev Martin Luther King--and since.

2) In the Katrina disaster, Christian groups were far more effective--and quicker--at offering and carrying out assistance than governmental groups, partly since they were already at the scene.

3) For folkies, I would think gospel music, both black and white, might have some appeal. Totally impossible without Christianity.

4) Christian churches offer help to people all over the world caught in various disasters. The days of, for instance, of forcing people to listen to sermons before getting something to eat, as at the time of the Famine, are long gone--this aid is given unconditionally.

That's just a start.

Whereas the most people killed in the history of the world were killed by atheists---Hitler, Stalin and Mao. If anybody cares to assert Hitler was a Christian, you will need some proof. Just his stating God had saved him from the 20 July plot, for instance, is no proof--just the raving of a progressively unstable dictator.

And do non-atheists therefore think all atheists are evil?   That's absurd.   But some Mudcat atheists seem to have no problem lumping all Christians together as destructive bigots.

It sometimes seems these atheists--some, not all, either can't or won't think.   Some, like Bill D, and Amos, do. Plenty more do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 12:17 PM

Not necessarily talking 'religion' there John... it was carefully worded not to..... someone....???

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:22 AM

We must agree to differ there Mike. I'm sure you would no more wish to impose your beliefs on me, than I would mine, on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

Of course if more christians talked less and actually tried to live the life more the folk in here who have had bad experiences probably wouldnt have had them and would be more willing to live and let live.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM

John Mc... Just because you personally haven't encountered someone... doesn't mean they are imaginary!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:27 AM

OK, fine. First of all, it wouldn't bother me in the least to have somebody who knows nothing about me speculate I had a lousy childhood--since I know that not to be the case.

And we'll also say that no Mudcatters are rabidly anti-Christian. Then you'll have no trouble in complying with my request of several posts ago to cite various good things Christians and Christianity have done. This is a pathetically easy task--for anybody with any objectivity.

Unless of course it's too painful to admit Christianity has done and continues to do good. And if by some chance it is too painful, then we'll know the answer to the question on "rabidly anti-Christian"--since some Mudcatters are a veritable cornucopia of information on the alleged wrongs Christianity has committed.