BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:07 AM

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
                                                                                                                  
                                                Friedrich Nietzsche

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:07 AM

'Here you have TWO rights, TWO people who are right in terms of ancestral claims.'

from an interview with
Nadine Gordimer
a Jewish South African writer, political activist and Nobel Prize in literature laureate.
Her writing has long dealt with moral and racial issues, particularly apartheid in South Africa. She was active in the anti-apartheid movement, joining the African National Congress during the days when it was banned as a terrorist organization

'But all the differences aside, it appears that the strongest similarity Gordimer sees between apartheid and the struggle between Israelis and Palestinians is what she calls "Israel's brutal methods in the occupied territories."

"There is a similarity, alas, in the way Palestinians are being treated in the occupied territories, the brutal methods." '

Gordimer said she was "shocked and saddened by the behaviour of Israel in the occupied territories," asserting that Israel is "much stronger" than the Palestinians, and should therefore "restrain itself."

Though Israelis might feel their country is fighting for a just cause, Gordimer says they should feel something quite different.

"I think Israelis should feel very troubled, and indeed some Israelis feel troubled, with the brutality and lack of common humanity shown to people in the occupied territories"'

The thread is about the 'facts' and MUST include the acknowledgement of the privations of everyday life behind the 'Seperation Wall' and the work that civil rights activists and peace makers, whether Jewish, Israeli, Arab or others are doing to bring this to the attention of the world.


Please read the report of the Caritas charitable organization working with the children behind the 'Seperation Wall' these are the 'facts' of everyday life

'..... Endless paperwork must be completed and then the child will be put into an ambulance. but this ambulance is permitted to travel only a few hundred metres up to Bethlehem checkpoint. It can go no further. It can go no further because it is Palestinian. Even ambulances are not allowed passage through the checkpoints to hospitals in Israel irrespective of paperwork.'

And once the child is safely in the hospital inside Israel where are his or her parents? They are invariably stuck the other side of the Apartheid Wall to their child, unable to get permission from the Occupation to themselves visit and care for their sick children during their hospital treatment.'

'Palestine diminishes day by day. It gets smaller and smaller. It cannot thrive and its children suffer from a Failure to Thrive. It cannot develop, and its children illustrate that fact through their continued development of poverty related illnesses.'

extracts from

Behind the Wall - 'Medical Conditions caused by Political Decisions'
Window Into Palestine
Rich Wiles

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:04 AM

Here's something new. "Iran has promised Hamas new rockets and more funds, an expression of the Islamic Republic's displeasure with recent news of renewed Israeli-Syrian peace talks, the London-based newspaper, Asharq Alawsat reported on Sunday."
Looks like Israel's neighbors are panicking at the possibility of peace with Syria which may mean end of Syrian arms support for Hamas and the other jihadist militant forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 08:04 AM

Norman Finkelstein,the well known American academic and prominent critic of Israel's policies against the Palestinians has been arrested in Israel and is about to be deported.Apparently he has been told he cannot return for ten years.

He was on his way to the occupied territories when he was taken into custody.

Although there is a right of return in Israel it seems if you are a Jewish critic of the Zionist policies that are directly oppressing Palestinians you are subject to arrest and deportation.

Of course if you a member of the International Solidarity Movement protesting at the demolition of Palestinian houses you are likely to be arrested,shot at or run over by one of those huge Israeli bulldozers.

If you are a Palestinian critic you will face imprisonment,beatings or torture, a visit from a death squad or just a shell exploding in your kitchen.

albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:06 AM

Carol C, to me - "Please show me which accusations made by me are false."

Of course, and I have taken the liberty of putting them into 'bold'. I always think, that if you are saying that someone has 'said' something, then it is always best to quote those very words, from the poster concerned, so that all may see the words you are talking about. Perhaps it would be a good idea if you did this in future, Carol. That way, no-one can be misled, or falsely accused.

Below is the post from John, in italics, with your reply to him directly underneath:

"CarolC, you are a liar and a libeler! I have never called anyone a 'Jew hater' in the course of these discussions. And while I speak only for myself, I don't believe Peace has either.

Peace has done so numerous times right here in this thread, as well as other threads. Read the thread for yourself. I took your comments about race baiting to be an endorsement of his position in this regard. I apologize if you do not endorse those kinds of comments coming from him. "


In your post to 'peace' below, you inferred those words, without proof.

"I don't see any reason to allow other people to define my side of the argument. I'll define it myself. You, for instance, try to always frame it in terms of those who support human rights for Palestinians as being Israel haters and Jew haters/bashers. I can certainly understand why you would need to do that, though, since you're trying to defend the indefensible, and it's the best you've got. Still, most intelligent people can see right through that sort of thing."


Yet once more, in your post to John, below, you say:

"By the way, if pointing out the racism inherent in Peace's and John on the Sunset Coast's positions is "race baiting", then so is calling people "Jew haters". ............It's you and Peace who are the racists. Not the people who are working to help the Palestinians get their human rights and their freedom. "

They did not call you that, Carol. I have looked through every single post above, and nowhere have these posters used the words you have claimed they have, to you, or to anyone else. They have, however, disagreed with you. If I have overlooked the post(s) you are talking about, then perhaps you could put them in for me.


From you - "Not the people who are working to help the Palestinians get their human rights and their freedom. "


Surely both sides have the right to their human rights and their freedom? Both sides are screaming in pain, for various reasons. The Palestinian mother cries the same tears as the Israeli mother.

May I suggest you read the post below again, paying paritcular attention to the part I have 'bolded', for those words, to me, contain more wisdom and humanitarianism that any other words on this thread.

Taken from - BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:11 PM

"..................So while you folks get all teary-eyed about displaced people, save some of those tears for the other displaced people. And until such time as you demonstrate in your posts that what you seek is a solution for humans, not just Palestinian humans, I will contine to read your posts with disdain, and there will be no common ground here, either....I respect that you have views. Respect that they are not the only views.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:52 AM

From the thread that CarolC referred me to:

"Do you then dispute ANY of the following facts???" - beardedbruce

"Yes, I dispute all of that, and they are not facts." – CarolC

Let's have a look at what CarolC says aren't facts:

Fact/Non-Fact 1:
May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

What isn't a fact CarolC? Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs did broadcast that, there exists extremely clear recordings of that broadcast – Are you saying that they didn't? If so what grounds have you for saying that they didn't.

Fact/Non-Fact 2:
May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

Again recordings of this broadcast prove it to be fact – "The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence" – Now CarolC's contention is that Egyptian troop deployments were defensive. Couple of questions for you CarolC:

1.        If defensive in nature as you say why did Egypt demand the withdrawal of the UN Peacekeepers/Observers?

2.        If that sentence quoted from the Cairo Radio broadcast is "defensive in nature" I'd hate to heard what they would broadcast if they were being belligerent. "The sole method" that Egypt was going to apply against Israel was what CarolC?

Fact/Non-Fact 3:
May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

The closing of an International Waterway is considered to be a belligerent act by the United Nations – That CarolC is FACT, and there have been a number of international precedents where the UN have adjudicated such actions as acts of war.

Fact/Non-Fact 4:
May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

Clearly stated, there can be no denying what the man said, it is down on record. Now explain to us how someone being ready to "initiate the act of liberation itself" is being defensive? Who were the Syrian forces massed on the Golan going to "liberate"? What do you understand as being the meaning of the word "initiate"?

Fact/Non-Fact 5:
May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

Just how would Nasser achieve that objective defensively CarolC?

Fact/Non-Fact 6:
May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

Statement of fact CarolC, are you saying that Nasser did not say that on May 30th 1967? Or are you saying that he lied and that the armies of those nations were not poised on the borders of Israel?

Fact/Non-Fact 7:
May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

Fact the paper exists, simple matter of record.

Fact/Non-Fact 8:
May 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

Acting strictly defensively exactly how would the forces of Egypt and Syria "cut Israel in two" CarolC? To "cut Israel in two" wouldn't the forces of Egypt and Syria have to invade Israel?

Fact/Non-Fact 9:
May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

Are you saying that those words were not uttered by the Iraqi President CarolC?

Fact/Non-Fact 10:
June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

Fact the paper exists, simple matter of record.


Fact/Non-Fact 10:
June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

Fact or are you saying that they didn't.

By the bye CarolC – Jordan did not participate in the 1973 Yom Kippur War

"The moment is coming when we will march on Damascus to overthrow the Syrian Government" (this is the reason Nasser removed the UN observers and closed the Straits of Tiran) --General Yitzhak Rabin on Israeli radio, May 11, 1967

Now that little outburst from Rabin could not in any way have been as a result of the following could it CarolC:

Jan -March 1967 -
Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel. March 3 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav.

March 26, 1967
2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad.

April 7, 1967
Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus.
   
May 11, 1967
Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7." UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem.

May 12, 1967
Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin is rebuked by Eshkol.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 06:33 AM

From Carol C, to me - "Also, you appear to think that I am the only person posting to this thread. Are you trying to silence people who post things you don't agree with?"

I do not seek to silence anyone, merely to get to them to re-consider. I also do not seek to twist or spin the words of others, or to paint them in an untrue light. I addressed part of my post to you, Carol, as, imo, you are the one dominating this thread, and saying things which are untrue about other posters. That is wrong.

As I stated above, perhaps signing up to one of the Peace Organisations would be a better thing to. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and passion, as do others. Do not waste or abuse that passion, in making false accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:41 AM

See this thread for answers to your questions/points, Teribus...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=111199

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:36 AM

Well let's see, summer 1967.

Nasser on March 8, 1965 said:
•        We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand. We shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood.

Nothing threatening at all about that language is there CarolC?

A few months later, Nasser expressed the Arabs' goal to be:

•        ... the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel.

All he is talking about here is the removal of the political entity isn't he CarolC? He doesn't actually mean any harm to anyone does he? Wonder where all that blood was going to come from that he was talking about in March?

May 13, 1967 a Soviet parliamentary delegation visited Cairo and informed the Egyptian leaders that Israel had concentrated eleven to thirteen brigades along the Syrian border in preparation for an assault within a few days, with the intention of overthrowing the revolutionary Syrian Government. This was a complete fabrication designed by the Soviets to destabilize the Middle East. Similar false information may have been given to Egypt by the Soviets as early as May 2.

The build up and aggressive intent were denied by Israel. UN Secretary General U Thant reported that UNTSO observers on the Syrian border:

•        ... have verified the absence of troop concentrations and absence of noteworthy military movements on both sides of the [Syrian] line.

On May 15, Israel's 19th Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border.

Of course nothing threatening at all in this being done by Egypt, although CarolC maybe you can explain why it is OK for Egypt to actually mass troops on the borders of another nation, while at the same time Egypt objects when another country is accused of doing exactly the same thing.


By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.

Ah, pretty infectious this "massing-of-troops-on-the-borders-of-Israel" for no good reason. But if viewed as a sort of review or a parade I dare say you could argue that the army might as well gather there as anywhere else, but it must definitely not be viewed by anyone as being threatening eh CarolC.


On May 16, Nassar requested the withdrawal of the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956. Egyptian forces moved up to the UNEF lines and began to harrass the UN positions. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. This was a direct violation of the conditions under which Israel had returned control of the Sinai to Egypt after the Sinai Campaign. The UN force was supposed to safeguard Israel from Egypt again closing the Straits of Tiran or launching terrorist attacks from that quarter.

Care to let us in on why Nasser ordered the UN out of Sinai CarolC? Was he concerned that they were wasting their time and that they could be better employed elsewhere? Was he concerned that they might be bored, or that they could be missing their families?


King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30, 1967, under which Jordan joined the Egyptian-Syrian military alliance of 1966 and placed its army on both sides of the Jordan river under Egyptian command. He had little choice since Jordan housed 700,000 Palestinian Arabs whose rioting in November 1966 almost brought down Hussein's government.

Now under what circumstances and for what reason would the ruler of one country put his armed forces under the direct command of the ruller of another nation CarolC?


On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria. President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq added these words to the mountain of provocation:

•        The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.

Armed forces in the Arab countries were mobilized. Israel was confronted by an Arab force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft. The armies of Kuwait, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were contributing troops and arms to the Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian fronts.

Nothing threatening at all in that sort of concentration of military might on the borders of a fairly small country.

Quick Check:

- Arab force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft.
- Promises of Palestine soil saturated in blood
- Clearly stated aim the destruction of the State of Israel, the eradication of Israel.
- UN Peacekeepers withdrawn.
- Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.

I take it CarolC as Prime Minister of Israel under such circumstances you would have just sat there with thumb in bum and mind in neutral and done nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Peace-bringer
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:15 AM

Here you will find a list of Middle East Peace Resources, containing links to people, around the world, who are trying to bring peace to this situation. Perhaps far more could be done, by most of those in here, if you signed up to some of them.

Middle East Peace Resources

Carol, personally speaking, I think it would be a good thing if you let this thread now rest. All that is being accomplished here is fellow posters possibly falling out with one another, due to false accusations being made by you.

It is not what Mudcat should be about. So please, consider, and become a peace-bringer yourself, to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:57 AM

I think the revealing to the world that Israel was armed with nuclear weapons was an act of a deeply humanitarian man.....and I admire Mordechai Vanunu's courage and conscience.

There are many across the world who are thankful that this information was revealed to the wider world.Of course those in the corridors of power, in the upper echelons of the arms manufacturers the nuclear barons and the military would have already known the essential facts about Israel's nuclear weapons.

Other than the belief that he has made an outstanding contribution to the cause of peace I also know that he has undergone terrible personal suffering as a result of him telling the world's public about the nuclear weapons that Israel possesses and which are pointing at its neighbours.

The much misnamed "Peace" person above [what a sad joke that nameis ] asks what I have done to help the Vanunu.
My answer is... not enough but obviously more than you.

As a reader of Mudcat who has come upon this thread I thought I would add my comments about events in Israel.It amazes me that the Zionists writing here seem to think that to read Mudcat you have to support Israel in its ongoing oppression of the Palestinian people.
Free Mordechai and Free Palestine!
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 08 - 02:27 AM

Sorry CarolC! There have been so many wars that they run together in my mind. That should have been the one in 1973 where Egypt bears blame.

Yes, Egypt did start the war in 1973, for the purpose of taking back land that was taken from it by Israel in 1967.

In 67 Isreal struck first but under duress.

There was no danger to Israel from Egypt in 1967. Israel started this war for the purpose of taking land by conquest.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:17 AM

When people reveal the defense secrets of their own country it is called treason. In many places he'd be dead already--as in on the day of his arrest. What exactly have YOU done to help the man, "Guest, Albert"? Other than post on Mudcat that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 May 08 - 01:08 AM

I would just like to pick up the point about Mordechai Vanunu which I raised a while ago.

He served 18 years in an Israeli jail much of that time in solitary confinement.

He served the jail time for revealing that Israel was armed with nuclear weapons .In fact it is the one state in the Middle East to have these nuclear weapons. For the crime of revealing its nuclear arms to the world he was kidnapped by Israeli secret agents in Rome and drugged and brought back to Israel.

After his release from prison he renounced his faith and citizenship of Israel and sought to move to Europe. He has been living in a christian church in Jerusalem and been threatened by zionists.
The authorities have been playing cat and mouse with him and refuse to let him leave.
Israel is an aggressive state with nuclear weapons and the Observer revealed last year that much of its nuclear technology was provided by Britain.It really was like pouring oil on the fire.
Those people who have been loudly proclaiming the democracy of Israel need to face up to the question of Vanunu. Let him go!
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 May 08 - 12:38 AM

"This is not true, Sandy. It was started by Israel. I was alive in 1967 also. Just because you hear something on the news doesn't make it true."
Sorry CarolC! There have been so many wars that they run together in my mind. That should have been the one in 1973 where Egypt bears blame. In 67 Isreal struck first but under duress. The Arabs also have lots of justification. The problem is that an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:52 PM

Yes, but Palestine was part of Jordan at the time of Isreal's creation in 47. The Palestine people were Jordanian and it was Jordan that excluded them and must bear some of the blame. Isreal should have probably been carved out of Germany as retribution but that was snot what happened. Somehow we must go forward in peace!

Palestine was never a part of Jordan, Sandy, and the Palestinians are not originally from what is now or what has ever been Jordan.

I agree, however, that Jordan bears some responsibility for the fact that the Palestinians have not ever had self-determination. Jordan had an agreement with the leaders of what is now Israel to divide the land that had been given to the Palestinians in the partition plan and split it with Israel. And that is exactly what happened until, in 1967, Israel took the part that Jordan acquired as a result of that agreement. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that Jordan decided to take that land because they knew that the Palestinians didn't have the military resources to defend it from being taken by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:37 PM

Yes, but Palestine was part of Jordan at the time of Isreal's creation in 47. The Palestine people were Jordanian and it was Jordan that excluded them and must bear some of the blame. Isreal should have probably been carved out of Germany as retribution but that was snot what happened. Somehow we must go forward in peace!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:26 PM

I do not agree with the occupation of the west bank or the Israli settlements and I think that they should withdraw. However I was alive in '67 and that war was started by Egypt! If we are to mend fences we must look at historical facts with an unbiased eye. Your statement is simply untrue.

This is not true, Sandy. It was started by Israel. I was alive in 1967 also. Just because you hear something on the news doesn't make it true.

Most of the Palistinian refugees were Jordanian citizens and Jordan cut them loose. Nothing to be proud about from either side but Isreal should be allowed to exist!

This is also not true. They were originally from what is now Israel and Occupied Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:20 PM

Well Arnie I've lived three score of my three score and ten. One thing about the advancing years is that you look back more than looking forward. Wisdom can be found in history but only us old farts can see it!
          Slainte,
                Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:11 PM

CarolC you said:
"Israel did start the 1967 war, and the reason it is of the utmost importance to bring this to the awareness of people is because Israel is using its fiction about '67 being for them a defensive war in order to say that they were legally entitled to take land by conquest. As long as Israel is allowed to provoke wars with its neighbors and then take their land by conquest, there will never be peace in the region, and there will never be peace for the Israelis."

I do not agree with the occupation of the west bank or the Israli settlements and I think that they should withdraw. However I was alive in '67 and that war was started by Egypt! If we are to mend fences we must look at historical facts with an unbiased eye. Your statement is simply untrue. Isreal should be allowed to live in peace within it's pre '67 borders. Most of the Palistinian refugees were Jordanian citizens and Jordan cut them loose. Nothing to be proud about from either side but Isreal should be allowed to exist!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:10 PM

"Organized religion has much to answer for be it Muslim, Christian or Jew! It is time to bury the hatchet and if necessary, bury Christ, King David and Muhammad as well for the betterment of us all!
Brilliant and truly realistic idea - good luck! You've really solved this problematic discussion here. By the way watch what you say on the internet. Some folks have gotten themselves in deep trouble in the Muslim world for saying things about -you know who.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:08 PM

You know, I don't think anybody here is particularly racist. Some don't like the policies of Israel, and some do. Stop calling each other names and get back to the topic of discussion - the "facts" of the Palestinian issue.

Some of you are being far too combative, and I'm getting pressure to bar you from Mudcat. If you find yourself blocked, contact me politely by e-mail in a few weeks, and we'll talk about it.

-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:57 PM

Here you go, John. Here's just one of the many...


Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace - PM
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have. Will they speak against Hezbollah or Hamas? NO! For to do so would not be in their game plan because they would then have to admit that the people representing the Palestinian people are fu#king murderers. If I knew how to do the spit word in writing, it would go here.


Or perhaps I misunderstood Peace, and he wasn't saying that everyone who criticizes what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians is anti-Israel. Of course, only Peace can tell us one way or another.


You, CarolC, have no cred left with me.

I never imagined that I had any cred with you to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:49 PM

I wasn't going to do it, but Mrs. JotSC is getting ready for us to go see cowboy music thereby giving me the time. I scrolled through Peace's comments on this thread, and did not see anywhere that he called anyone here a 'Jew hater.' I did see your comment of May 18 at 4:26 where you accused him of of using the term on other threads. Well, I researched as much as I'm going on this subject. You, CarolC, have no cred left with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:42 PM

Prior to John's post, Sandy, I have not accused anyone of race baiting. Not ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:25 PM

CarolC take a look in the mirror!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:09 PM

CarolC, you are a liar and a libeler! I have never called anyone a 'Jew hater' in the course of these discussions. And while I speak only for myself, I don't believe Peace has either.

Peace has done so numerous times right here in this thread, as well as other threads. Read the thread for yourself. I took your comments about race baiting to be an endorsement of his position in this regard. I apologize if you do not endorse those kinds of comments coming from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 10:01 PM

CarolC, you are a liar and a libeler! I have never called anyone a 'Jew hater' in the course of these discussions. And while I speak only for myself, I don't believe Peace has either.

As I previously said, you are, as far as I can tell, the about only poster who has injected race into the discussion.

At any rate, as far as I'm concerned--based on your last posts--you are of as little consequence as my toe nail parings in your discussion here.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:43 PM

By the way, if pointing out the racism inherent in Peace's and John on the Sunset Coast's positions is "race baiting", then so is calling people "Jew haters".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:40 PM

I am not an athiest but I find myself to be more agnostic all the time, when I see what is being done in the name of religion. Love and tolerance are not embraced by many, but those who are the most intollerent are the first to cry discrimination. Organized religion has much to answer for be it Muslim, Christian or Jew! It is time to bury the hatchet and if necessary, bury Christ, King David and Muhammad as well for the betterment of us all!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:36 PM

In answer to your question... it's not race baiting. It's pointing out the gross hypocrisy of people like Peace (and apparently, you) who go around calling other people Jew haters, while turning a blind eye to the treatment of some Jews by the government that you and he are defending.


It's all in the way we categorize and group people. I categorize and group them in these terms...

Category - Human beings:

People of all religions, and of no religion, and people of all "races" and "ethnic groups".


Sub categories:


Ethical people -

Those who recognize the humanity and equal rights of all groups.

This group includes members of all religious and ethnic groups, but it does not include members of the governments of some countries, including that of Israel.


Unethical people -

Those who do not recognize the humanity and equal rights of all groups.

This group also includes members of all religions and ethnic groups, particularly the governments of some countries, including that of Israel.


You and Peace seem to group people differently. You appear to have a category of people who are above any kind of criticism no matter what they do, and how badly they treat their fellow human beings, and groups who are not entitled to be defended by anyone under any circumstances. This is supremacism.

It's you and Peace who are the racists. Not the people who are working to help the Palestinians get their human rights and their freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:14 PM

Whack-a-Mole!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 09:09 PM

CarolC, why is it when you run out of cogent argument you resort to race baiting? I believe you are about the only one here who does. Perhaps you project your bias against white, European Jews on the rest of us? Of course Israel's supporters would love to get rid of those brown-skin Yemenite Jews, and North African Jews, or those black-skin Ethiopian Jews. They're just not Nordic enough for the rest of us. Barf!

The Israeli leadership and the Zionist leadership have a racist, supremacist ideology and racist, supremacist practices. Their treatment of the Palestinians as well as the treatment of the non-European Jews are proof enough of this.

My question to you is this - why do you only condemn bad things that are done to European Jews by people other than the Isreli leadership, but not to non-European Jews by the Israeli leadership?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:50 PM

Bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 06:06 PM

Guest, whoever you are, President Carter was a bad president, and is a worse ex-president. But his ideas fit right in with the usual crowd here. I do exempt from that comment his efforts to bring peace between Egypt and Israel...his one achievement.

CarolC, why is it when you run out of cogent argument you resort to race baiting? I believe you are about the only one here who does. Perhaps you project your bias against white, European Jews on the rest of us? Of course Israel's supporters would love to get rid of those brown-skin Yemenite Jews, and North African Jews, or those black-skin Ethiopian Jews. They're just not Nordic enough for the rest of us. Barf!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:30 PM

Gazans had an opportunity to normalize relations with Israel upon disengagement from Gaza. Instead they chose Hamas which promotes Israel's destruction.

Israel was already blockading Gaza before Hamas was elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:29 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have.

If they got the same consideration as the Palestinians have, there would be tens of thousands of them in prison without any charges and without any access to any kind of justice at all.

I guess you only define "human being" as Jews and non-Jews of European origin (I say of "European origin" because I haven't heard a peep out of you or anyone else about Israel's horrendous treatment of Jews who are not of European origin). But that's ok. They're only brown skinned people and not really human after all, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:13 PM

"This means that a Palestinian and her children and grandchildren are barred from returning to their homeland by Israeli law.In contrast a Jewish person from anywhere in the world has the legal right to enter Israel permenantly"

The one most important thing Jews learned from the Holocaust is the importance of having somewhere to go unconditionally when the rest of the world doesn't care to save you. If 6 million could have gone to Israel there would be a few more around to argue this point with Albert.

"did his utmost to further provoke the Palestinians with his "walkabout" at the muslim mosque in Jerusalem ....a walkabout which involved him being guarded by around 1000 armed guards."

Sharon needed guards- because Arab nutcases would have torn him apart for walking around- an impeccable example of freedom of expression. - good reason for sending suicide bombers around Israel?

"or kill all of the people in Gaza. It looks like Israel has chosen the last alternative."
Gazans had an opportunity to normalize relations with Israel upon disengagement from Gaza. Instead they chose Hamas which promotes Israel's destruction. Now common sense tells me that Israel shouldn't be helping Gazans economically in any way until the agenda changes to a peaceful one where commercial relations can even exist. Hamas believes Israel left Gaza because their terror tactics work, so they are promoting them. I don't know about you but, I wouldn't give bread, medicine, electricity, water to my nextdoor neighbor who wanted to come into my house and seek Martyrdom for their cause. If they discover the agenda not quite working in Gaza, there is an opportunity to change it, but they have no will to do that. They are in effect at war- and bad and good people die in war.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

These anti-Israel folks do NOT care about humans. Only those they think are human. And from their posts, it's obvious they think Jews are not worthy of the same consideration they feel the Palestinians should have. Will they speak against Hezbollah or Hamas? NO! For to do so would not be in their game plan because they would then have to admit that the people representing the Palestinian people are fu#king murderers. If I knew how to do the spit word in writing, it would go here.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:31 PM

I am tired of the glorification of Mordechai Vanunu by the anti-Israel crowd here. If Mr. Vanunu had been a member of Hamas who betrayed that organization he would have been hanged or shot by firing squad, or had his throat slit without trial. If he had been a traitor to Iran, he would have been shot or hanged. If he had passed US nuclear secrets to Russia, he would have been electrocuted.

That traitorous bastard is lucky he lives in a country that does not have the death penalty. He served prison time for a mere 18 years, not even the life imprisonment his crime merited. He is now under a deservedly strict parole.

Do I hear your plea to release the Israeli soldiers kidnapped from their posts by Hezbollah? I don't! Maybe my hearing is not so good anymore. Naaah, it is the deafening silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:31 PM

And by the way when will Mordechai Vanunu ,who renounced his Israeli citizenship years ago, be permitted to leave nuclear armed Israel.He has been offered refuge in Denmark but has been refused permission to leave depite threats to his life in Israel.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:06 PM

I've met many Israelis AND Palestinians from Israel, with immigration rates ranging quite heavily due, I've been told, more for economic reasons/ incentives than anything else. It has varied over the years and reminds me of the number of Irish Irish that have shown up in Boston in my living memory.

So if you've got a point to make, why not flesh it out somewhat so we can see whether it's got meat on its bones.

I don't disagree with what you've said about the reasons they are going. But the fact that they are going means that they don't consider Israel to be the best place for them. If they're leaving for economic reasons, that means that Israel isn't really thriving the way you suggested in your first post. My own opinion is that the occupation is not just hurting the Palestinians in occupied Palestine. I think it is also hurting Israel, but that it just takes a lot longer for this to become obvious in Israel than it does in occupied Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:53 PM

Carol you wrote:
Did you know that the number of people emigrating from Israel has exceeded the number immigrating to it for the first time recently?

I've met many Israelis AND Palestinians from Israel, with immigration rates ranging quite heavily due, I've been told, more for economic reasons/ incentives than anything else. It has varied over the years and reminds me of the number of Irish Irish that have shown up in Boston in my living memory.

So if you've got a point to make, why not flesh it out somewhat so we can see whether it's got meat on its bones.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:47 PM

What bullshit you speak.

If you think it is bullshit, that means you either think it will follow one of the other alternatives, or you can see an alternative that I have not listed.

If it is the former, which alternative do you think they're going to go with. If it's the latter, what alternative do you see that I have not listed?


Interesting thread. In all the to-ing and fro-ing about the Palestinians has anyone bothered to remember the roughly 4,000,000 Palestinians of Jewish descent who have managed to strive and thrive and maintain the freest, most democratic State in the entire Mideast for SIXTY YEARS?

Did you know that the number of people emigrating from Israel has exceeded the number immigrating to it for the first time recently?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:41 PM

Interesting thread. In all the to-ing and fro-ing about the Palestinians has anyone bothered to remember the roughly 4,000,000 Palestinians of Jewish descent who have managed to strive and thrive and maintain the freest, most democratic State in the entire Mideast for SIXTY YEARS?

Happy birthday Israel!

I'm enjoying both sides of the contention because of the well spoken-ness of both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:40 PM

"or kill all of the people in Gaza. It looks like Israel has chosen the last alternative."

What bullshit you speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,from albert
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:39 PM

I don't say that Israel is a fascist type country. That must be some kind of insecurity that Zionists get when they are criticised.
However ,Israel does remind me of apartheid era South Africa with many of its racist and vicious features.

And of course the Zionists know a great deal about armed factions and many Palestinians were the victims of the Zionist Stern gang which went to work with bomb and machine gun and knife when the Palestinians were driven out of their homes and expelled from their country.

Of course the Palestiniansd want a decent life.....at present it is a life that the Israeli state and the Zionists who control it are not prepared to allow.

This means that a Palestinian and her children and grandchildren are barred from returning to their homeland by Israeli law.In contrast a Jewish person from anywhere in the world has the legal right to enter Israel permenantly.

It also means that the illegal occupation of the West Bank is now the world'ds longest occupation of one land by a foreign power.And the Israeli can only maintain that occupation by intolerable methods which are against international law and any law of human decency. So we have the mass demolition of Palestinian houses,the theft of Palestinian farmland,the imprisonment of huge numbers of Palestinians on the West Bank [the majority of Palestinian males have been hauled off to Israeli jails ], attacks on Palestinian refugee camps like Jenin, the assassination of Palestinians by Israeli death squads, the building of the monstrous apartheid wall which snakes its way through Palestinian land for hundreds of miles, the siting of hundreds of checkpoints which cause huge delays for Palestinians who may only need to travel a few miles, the grubbing up of Palestinian olive groves,the closure of Palestinian schools and universities and countless other forms of daily humiliations meted out by the Israeli state to the Palestinian people.

If the Israeli people wish to negotiate in good faith they have a poor way of showing it as they do a good job in electing aggressive right wing and corrupt governments on a regular basis. Why I seem to recall that the old "Butcher of Beirut" himself, Ariel Sharon ,became leader of the Israeli government and did his utmost to further provoke the Palestinians with his "walkabout" at the muslim mosque in Jerusalem ....a walkabout which involved him being guarded by around 1000 armed guards.
And we have also seen the kind of "real life " being dished out to the Palestinian Gazans by the Israeli state.It has waged war on civilians including women and children for over a year.It has blockaded Gaza by air,land and sea.Its warship has blown up picnicers on the beach, it has rained down missiles on crowded streets and apartment blocks.It has blown up journalists and news cameramen.It has cut off power to hospitals and homes alike.

Yup, Gaza has tasted the Israeli military's version of "real life"...and it might not be fascism but it is brutal, venal and corrupting.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:32 PM

Gaza is not part as Israel and is ruled by Jihadist militant forces bent on Israel's destruction as it's political platform- not exactly the peace Palestinians can negotiate with any time soon. They seem to still think that indiscriminate rockets and suicide killing will bring Israel to their knees. This kind of policy is very dangerous for all the decent Palestinian civilians who want a real life The other areas are up for negotiations - so we'll see.

Israel has turned Gaza into a huge outdoor prison camp, which it is slowly starving, so it shouldn't surprise anyone if the Gazans act like they don't like it. Israel's only alternatives with regard to Gaza are to leave it alone so the Gazans can get on with life, transfer all of the Palestinians elsewhere, continue to put up with the rocket attacks, or kill all of the people in Gaza. It looks like Israel has chosen the last alternative.

On the subject of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, how do you feel about the idea of Israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 borders?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:47 AM

Whoops - that last post was from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 08 - 07:46 AM

"Out of curiosity, Arnie, do you consider the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to be part of Israel?"
Gaza is not part as Israel and is ruled by Jihadist militant forces bent on Israel's destruction as it's political platform- not exactly the peace Palestinians can negotiate with any time soon. They seem to still think that indiscriminate rockets and suicide killing will bring Israel to their knees. This kind of policy is very dangerous for all the decent Palestinian civilians who want a real life ( not to mention the victims of these tactics on the Israeli side - but I noticed you didn't mention those Albert) The other areas are up for negotiations - so we'll see.
"It is one of the most violent societies in the world" - Tell me what civilized countries allow militant armed factions to exist and roam freely reaking havoc on their neighbors? Israelis live in fear - yes because of being surrounded by those bent on it's destruction, not because of Zionist thugs- give me a break. Albert - you could get easily get a job in Iran's propaganda dept against the Zionist Entity. There are Jews who aren't happy with Israeli policies - but don't go on as if it were a worldwide movement or something. I think you'll find most Jews are supportive of the Israeli government and the Israeli State and wish it to negotiate peace in good faith. Israel is a civilized democracy - you make it sound like a fascist regime with thugs at every corner.