Capo - what are the rules?

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Terry K
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 01:55 AM

So ....... there are no rules, right?

Like Bonnie, I have to understand it first, now I can just get on with it. I guess a really good use might be to enable me to play some of the really difficult chords that my old fingers won't otherwise reach. I take your point Bill (\sables) about using it as an excuse not to learn the chords but some of them really boggle my fingers!

Thanks all for great explanations.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:57 PM

Yeah Murray, you're right about the "C" bass. I generally use a "Masterclass" 56 or 58 on the bass of my o-18. They're an unusual kind of low tension string made in Britain. The 58 plays like a 53 but can be tuned down to C with little "flutter and wow".

Here's a trick that I've been doing for thirty years and it REALLY works (especially on 12 string).

Cut a tiny V shaped groove in your capo where the bass E meets the rubber. You'll never have to retune 'cause the E went sharp when you capo. If I'm using heavier guages for the E AND A (which I often do) I have a capo with two small "Vs" cut into it.

Rick

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:48 PM

I have always felt that tuning has lots of possibilities Rick. I seem to remember David Hamburger had an article in "Acoustic Guitar" on that very tuning but I can't remember the song he used to illustrate it. Must try "Freight Train" using it.

The bugger of it is however that tuning down to C causes all sorts of pitch contortions in the 6th string, unless you are using a really manly gauge to start with. (I don't: D'Addario .012 through .053 suits me fine for standard, but they don't cut it for altered tunings)

I am surprised the 3rd Hand Capo hasn't made more converts here. I am fairly certain that is what Harvey Reid uses, and by no stretch of the imagination could he be classified as semi-serious.

Murray

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:24 PM

Hi Soph. Many times when I was playing in bars, I'd have folks come up to the stage and say (I think they were trying to be complimentary) "Hey, how come you're using a "clamp"? You don't need one..blah, blah..." I always tried to explain it with much of what I said in my last post, til I realized they didn't have a clue or care what I was talking about. One night a guy challenged me to play "Summertime" in Cm, rather than play in Am capoed up to the third fret. I was too insecure to tell him to fuck off, so I did. Spent the whole song trying to transpose (and look cool about it!) The song sucked! I love my capos (Shubb and Dunlop "C" clamp) Never use it when I'm playing "chop rhythm" swing blues or jazz though. For slow fingerpicking I wouldn't be without it.

I bought one of the "Third hand" jobbies, but never found much use for it.

Thread creep: Here's a lovely tuning that I thought I'd invented, til I heard Keola beamer using it.

From the bass: C,G,D,G,B,E.

Play in C, but just use the index and middle on the second and fourth strings. Verrry rich chord eh? Now barre it at the fifth and play the same position...that's your F. Slide the barre up to the seventh...that's G. Now just screw around with it for a while, and you'll find lots of nice effects. Freight train sounds great with this tuning. Be sure to use the fourth fret barre for E and the second fret barre for D.

Keola says it's a common Hawaiian "slack key" tuning.

Rick

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: pict
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 09:46 PM

I've never seen one in the flesh I suppose that's why,have you tried one Clinton?The guy who makes them has quite a blurb on them.

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 09:35 PM

the 3rd hand capo is a piece of junk... Sold as a novelty more than an actually useful item...

I have yet to see any even semi-serious player use on as more than a joke...

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: pict
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 08:50 PM

Terry K in music the EAR rules if it sounds good to you it is good.Capos are particularly useful for open tunings which are used a lot in folk music I just use the Dunlop cheapo black webbed strap type ones mainly because even good ones wear out the rubber part that holds down the strings and the straps on dunlop capos don't get in the way of my hand unlike these bulky metal mechanism capos.Capos are just another useful tool for getting a different sound as well as making life a bit easier.There is a guy making a thing called the 3rd hand capo which can be adjusted to hold down all or individual strings but it isn't particularly useful if you use it in standard tuning to create a pseudo tuning as soon as you play a barre chord then the guitar immediately reverts to standard tuning.Capos are liberating in some situations and limiting in others.

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 06:23 PM

McGrath, I think the capo you mean is called "The Partial Capo". Have never used one myself, but I can tell you who the past master of this gizmo is. Harvey Reid that's who. But the Maine Mudcatters probably know this already.

Murray

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: GUEST,chrisflapjack
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 06:15 PM

If you want to use a capo, use a good one. Your guitar will sound different, but maybe just as good. Clearer, maybe.

Disregard all who sneer. They just haven't got a good capo. We are doing this for pleasure ( or maoney, which is much the same thing)

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 06:06 PM

Dave Chiasson, I find when I am learning about all this new stuff, capos included, it does help to analyze what I am doing. Once I comprehend theoretically what is going on, I can then let it go and just get into the music.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 06:05 PM

The sort of capo you have makes a big difference - getting a Keyser changed my apptroach to playing in sessions, because you can move it around without having to retune, in the middle of a tune even.

There's a capo I've seen in which you can leave any individual strings open, not just the sixth, giving you the option of all kinds of weird tunings. Has anyone used one of those?

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 05:32 PM

So there you go, no need to mutilate perfectly good Shubbs any more. And Midchuck, I have just read your posting about having a beer with Jack Lawrence. Lucky bastard. Jack's playing that night was quite the equal of anyone I have ever heard flatpick.

Murray

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Midchuck
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 04:17 PM

Keyser makes a capo just for emulating the Drop-D tuning - I suppose you ought to call it Drop-E when you capo 5 strings up instead of tuning one down. They have an actual U-shaped cutout to miss the low E string. I have a couple, they work pretty well. I know bigchuck has 'em in stock in his store, and would probably mail order you one if you can't find 'em anywhere.

Usual disclaimers - well, I may use my promotional activities for the store as an argument for discounts, but that's as far as it goes.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 03:54 PM

That tip from sophocleese is a good one. I use two Shubb capos for that very purpose. One is stock, the other is sawn-off so that it only frets five strings. That way you can get the drop-E effect in other keys as well. The problem with fretting five strings with a standard Shubb is that it tends to pivot on one bearing point at the back of the neck, which can have disastrous consequences in the middle of a song. maybe Kysers work better for this purpose?

Murray

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: sophocleese
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 03:31 PM

Rick when you say "we" are you meaning folk guitarists or guitar players who haven't progressed beyond the basics. If its the first youare allowed to say we, if its the second your idea of accomplished is frighteningly high.

When I first started trying to use a capo I found that I had to retune my low E string all the time and it drove me nuts. So then I figured it was somebody's way of telling me to learn different chords. I learned a few more chords and, exhausted from the effort, then got a different capo that worked better. One other thing I discovered is that you don't have to fret all of the strings. I like to leave the low string open and fret the otehrs up two, it gives me a drop E tuning where I can still play the G form chord.

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 01:28 PM

Hi Terry, Catspaw makes a good point. The guitar (or banjo) sounds completely different when capoed, and you just may prefer that slightly different quality. A few things to remember:

ALL Flamenco guitarists use the capo (virtually ALL the time). It's simply traditional to that style.

Classical guitarists don't use an ACTUAL capo, but they play their pieces in "guitar friendly" keys. They're often looking for sustain and open bass notes, so check how often they play in A, G, and (dropped)D. Am, Dm, and Em as well.

Rarely do you ever hear anyone criticizing Flamencoists and Classical guitarists of lacking technique, but rarely do they go out of what would be called the "simple" keys.

Jazz Players work a great deal from scales and hence a capo would take away some of their fingerboard space. Also they try NOT to use open strings. Many get their sustain from the amp rather than the guitar. Often they use fairly heavy arched and carved top instruments that simply won't sustain like a flat-top or a classical, so a capo would not help much anyway in getting that "open string" sound.

Good rock players tend to borrow from a lot of genres, but scales are still a big part of their style, so you rarely see a capo....but it DOES happen. Keith Richards, seems to use one a lot.

Folkies, Acoustic Bluesers, and rhythm country players are often (not always) primarily singers and truth be known, many do NOT progress past a very basic technique on their instrument. It Sure doesn't make their music less valid, but many use a capo to play in keys that they haven't mastered in the conventional way. We're the ones who often get the flack. I doubt Carlos Montoya ever got dumped on for using a "clamp". (although in fact, he probably DID only play in a couple of keys)

Just remember that Doc Watson, Tony Rice, Pierre Bensusan, and Martin Carthy Constantly use capos...so yer in good company!

Rick

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Midchuck
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 11:48 AM

We (us Woodchucks) find that, if two of you are both playing guitars, the overall sound is often greatly improved by one or both using capos to play in the same key using different chord formations. I. e., if the song is in C, one of us might play the usual C chords and the other capo up 5 frets and use G positions. Makes it sound much more like two different instruments and less chaotic. Or so it seems to us.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:52 AM

Capos can add something else too. The sounds of the guitar changes as you shorten up the string length. Additionally, the chords sound differently too, ie., play an E chord in the standard position; now play a C chord with the capo at the 4th fret. Both are E chords, but the sound is completely different.

Makes for some nice effects. Experiment around.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: GUEST,Dave Chiasson
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:21 AM

I guess the real question here would have to be, "Why do we need more rules?" If it sounds good play it. I think all great musicians make great music by simply playing what sounds good. Why do we have to analyze it to death? Unless you are writing sheet music, why would you even need to know what all the notes are in the chord you choose to play? ... just play it.

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: bill\sables
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 08:11 AM

Terry use the capo by all means but don't use it as an excuse not to learn the chords in other keys. There are a couple of reasons for this, firstly if you are ever playing in a session and the lead calls a key change, in the time for you to work out where to put the capo and to change position the tune and key would probably have changed again. Secondly it is good exercise and dicipline for you to learn all the chords you are liable to need as it makes your fingers supple and helps you to work out what chords are needed for a particular tune or song and wether an alternative chord would suit the tune better.
cheers Bill

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: John P
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 07:55 AM

Yes, by all means, keep calling it an A and play away. You move the capo to find the place where that A chord is in a good range for your voice.

If you need to know what chord you are actually playing, like if you need to communicate with other musicians, just count up the scale. A on the 1st fret becomes Bb. On the 2nd fret it's B. On so forth: C, C#, D, Eb, F, F#, G, Ab, and back to A (if you could capo on the 12th fret!). If it is a major chord without a capo, it will stay that way with a capo.

The other big reason to use a capo other than pitching the guitar to your voice is to play with other musicians. Say a fiddler plays a tune in the key of D and you really want to play the chords in A. Just count up the neck from A until you get to D and put the capo there (5th fret). Now you are playing A chords, but the guitar is producing D chords for the fiddler.

John

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 07:52 AM

Precisely. So with an A chord shapr one fret up kt becomes Bb, two up it becomes C, then C#, then D and so forth up to 12th fret (if you could get that far), whenit becomes A again.

The only time it matters what you call it is if you're playing with other people, and they change key and shout out "E" or something, and you've got to work out what shape that means for the place where you are capoed.

Capos aren't just there to shift the sound to match your voice. There are sounds you can get with a capoed guitar that aren't really possible without, even if you're really good with making with barre chords.

For example, playing in the key of D but using G chords and a capo on the 7th fret is a very different sound and feeling. When two guitars are playing together, it can be a good idea to have one capoed high playing different chords.

Subject: RE: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 07:12 AM

You got it. Consider the capo to be your key lifter (digitl? Analog?). Your A chord without the capo goes up a half step with the capo. You can capo all the way up the neck depending on your voice and confort for singing. Some of these wild eyed, crazy fingered, real guitar players may be able to name the chords formed this way but that will just make your eyes spin. Keep calling it an A and play away.

Subject: Capo - what are the rules?
From: Terry K
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 06:50 AM

I'm puzzled.

As a raw beginner on guitar, I've been reading about the capo. The book says to put the capo on whichever fret suits the pitch of your voice and use the same chord shapes. It doesn't say there are any rules.

I can follow this only so far.

For example, without the capo (standard tuning) the A major chord gives us A, Csharp and E, the 1,3,5 notes of the A major scale. If I capo up to fret 3, the A major chord shape gives C, E, G, thus a C major chord. I guess the other chord shapes (D and E) will complete the picture to give the 1, 1V, V chords in the key of C. Similarly, if I capo up to fret 2 I would get a B minor chord. All well and good.

But if I capo to fret 1, the A chord shape gives me D, F, Asharp - is this a proper chord? And fret 4 would give me Dflat, F, Asharp - what on earth can that be!

So I figure that there must be some rules about what chord shapes are allowable for each of the frets you might wish to capo to.

I've read some of the previous threads on the subject of capos but I don't think this question has been asked before.

Maybe someone can give me some answer - other than "why don't you just get on and play the bloody thing"!!

Cheers, Terry