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BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 11 - 10:02 AM Poster is Akenaton, who needs to reset his cookie. -Joe Offer-
Arm the insurgents? Surely they must be kidding! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM As rebels go, this lot really do look a right shower. I can't see that arming them would be any guarantee of their winning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:11 PM There seems to be some wrangling among member states about which parts of the mission NATO should assume. Some current info here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM bobad, have you heard when Bouchard takes over command? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM From Stringsinger: "...why they chose violence over non-violent resistance as was done in Tunisia, Egypt and now Yemen, Bahrain and soon Saudi Arabia." This article gives a timeline of the start of the peaceful protest and how it turned into the war that is now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:21 PM Well, I watched a few of these 'rebels' last night on the news and I shuddered, because most of 'em looked off their rockers to me. I truly can't see Libya settling down to Tea and Toast if MwaMwa Qu'dafi is blown to Kingdom Come one evening... I think Civil War will rage for many years. I think Uncivil War will also rage for many years, whilst the West tries to gain control of the Oil, which is what this is *really* about, let's face. If they moved MwaMwa and his People to Zimbawbe, then left them there, all killing each other, the West wouldn't bat an eyelid...They'd just shrug their shoulders and go "Mymy, MwaMwa's at it again, deardear" and order another round of cucumber sandwiches, whilst making deals with Mugabe and his People, who of course, they'd moved over to Libya as the second part of The Oily Plan of The New World Disorder...... "TMWATN -- the man with a thousand names" ...coming to a cinema near you very soon............ Sorry, I don't mean to make light of this situation, but it sucks, it REALLY sucks...and the fallout will be catastrophic in the long run, I fear...Hopefully, I'm wrong though... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Stringsinger Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM We have an imperial presidency; King Obama has declared war unilaterally and twisted the arms of so-called allies to do it. 99 sorties are being carried out by the U.S. The other members of NATO report to American generals. The problem arises when we don't know who the rebels are or why they chose violence over non-violent resistance as was done in Tunisia, Egypt and now Yemen, Bahrain and soon Saudi Arabia. Will these rebels replace a brutal dictator with another brutal dictatorship? When guns and weaponry rule, these means continue into politics. Mass slaughter is done throughout the world in Indonesia (Copasset army), Darfur, Ivory Coast, and human rights violations in China, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and many countries in the world. Why isolate Libya just "because we can."? Obama didn't think this out carefully enough, that is why he doesn't have the support for this effort, has possibly split the peace movement down the center, reinforced Pax Americana in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, and elsewhere. Ultimately the thousands of lives he claims he has saved may be more costly in human lives down the road. You don't think there will be American "boots on the ground"? Wanna' bet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:14 PM akenaton- As I cautioned that initial report from Al Jazeera was wildly optimistic. Here's what that press source says now: "Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi are resisting an advance by Libyan rebels towards the embattled Libyan leader's hometown of Sirte in the fiercest clashes since the start of a sweeping offensive that has brought a string of coastal towns under opposition control. The rebels, backed by international coalition air strikes, have advanced largely unchecked since Friday but claims in Benghazi, the rebel's eastern stronghold, earlier on Monday that Sirte had also fallen were premature. Opposition fighters are now engaged in clashes about 100km east of the city, with pro-Gaddafi forces shelling their front lines. Fighting is ongoing at Nawfaliya, about 180km east of Sirte, where opposition forces say they have come upon a heavily mined road. Pro-Gaddafi forces have dug into positions near the front line, and are shelling opposition fighters. Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from the east of Nawfaliya, said: "I've not been able to confirm that there has actually been an advance in the town itself [Sirte]. They [rebels] managed to get really close to Sirte but they didn't get in." "Sirte will not be easy to take," said General Hamdi Hassi, an opposition commander from the city of Bin Jawad. "Now, because of NATO strikes on [the government's] heavy weapons, we're almost fighting with the same weapons." 'We're manoeuvring' Fawzi Bukatif, the commander of the Martyr's Brigade, part of the forces battling Gaddafi, told Al Jazeera: "We're manoeuvring ... we are starting ... we are checking what kind of forces they have there but we are standing at Hagela now - almost 100km from Sirte." Bukatif said the rebels' progress has been hampered by a lack of weapons as they rely on "old Russian weapons". "The ... problem we have is we have run out of weapons," he said. "You know our weapons are traditional ones; the old ones; the Russian weapons. We need ammunition. We need new weapons. We need anti-tanks; we do not have facilities [but] we have the soldiers left behind by Gaddafi ... "If we do have weapons and ammunitions that we need at the moment, we can move strongly and faster." Fresh fighting continued further west in rebel-held Misurata, where rebels admitted that Gaddafi forces had gained control of part of the town after days of heavy fighting and despite air strikes on Saturday by French and British forces. "Part of the city is under rebel control and the other part is under the control of forces loyal to Gaddafi," a spokesman told the Reuters news agency. Rebels dimissed reports that a ceasefire had been declared by the Libyan foreign ministry in Misurata and that anti-terrorism units there had stopped firing at rebel forces. Saddun al-Misrati, a member of the rebels' revolutionary committee, told Al Jazeera: "We rubbish this announcement ... Nothing that they say will make a difference on the ground." Nine people were killed overnight by snipers and shelling by pro-Gaddafi forces, according to a doctor in Misurata, while a resident told Reuters that 24 people had been wounded in mortar attacks by government forces. A Libyan government spokesman claimed Misurata had been liberated. Al Jazeera's James Bays has been following the rebel offensive, which has seen them claim the towns of Ajdabiya, Brega, Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad. Stretched lines Speaking from Bin Jawad, Bays said it was uncertain where the frontline was. People coming along the coastal road from Sirte said Gaddafi forces were gathered around 60km outside the city, positioned in trees, our correspondent said. The speed of the rebel advance has stretched lines of communications and created logistical problems, said Bays. One problem is a lack of electricity, which means that petrol pumps do not work. "At petrol stations they're using plastic bottles on strings down into the tank below the station to pull up fuel," said Bays. The rebels' advance along the coast has triggered exuberant celebrations in towns along the route such as Ajdabiya with rebel fighters firing their weapons in celebration. But government forces appear to have been withdrawing their heavy armour, rather than engaging with the rebels. There were reports on Sunday of a column of military vehicles, including truck-mounted anti-aircraft guns, seen leaving Sirte in the direction of Tripoli, accompanied by dozens of civilian cars carrying families, according to a Reuters reporter in the vicinity. The opposition's National Council has said it expects a major battle to occur in the area around Tripoli, as opposed to at Sirte. NATO command Meanwhile, international air strikes continued on Monday with British Tornado aircraft attacking and destroying Libyan government ammunition bunkers in the Sabha area of the southern desert, the British defence ministry said. 'Storm Shadow missiles were launched against ammunition bunkers used to re-supply Libyan government troops attacking civilians in the north of the country, including Misurata,' it said in a statement." Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: melodeonboy Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM Sorry for the thread drift, but the question of why we spell Gaddafi's name in a variety of ways is very simple. As Arabic uses a different script from ours and has, for many of its letters, an inexact correspondence to our phonetic system, we transliterate Arabic names into what we think is the nearest equivalent. This explains why there are, for example, so many different spellings of the name "Mohammed". Even by reading Gaddafi's name with a "d", we are actually pronouncing the letter with a North African accent. In Standard Arabic it would be a soft "th" (as in "with"). It also works the other way round. Westerners may find their names spelt differently in Arabic by different Arabic speakers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: akenaton Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM Just heard a report from a BBC reporter in Sirte. The town is still very much in Government control....Population seem to be staunch Gadaffi supporters.....green flags in every window. One of the inhabitants when interviewed said, "they can come to talk(the insurgents)and we will listen, but if they come with guns, they will be met with guns" This leaves the NATO terrorists with a slight predicament.....if the insurgents attack Sirte and the civilian population, will the terrorists feel obliged to defend the inhabitants of Sirte by incinerating the insurgents in the same manner as they did Col Gadaffi's troops? You are only allowed three guesses unfortunately |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:16 AM The latest update from Al Jazeera: "Libyan rebels are claiming to have captured the town of Sirte, the home of embattled Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi. Shamsi Abdul Molah, a spokesman for the opposition's National Council, told Al Jazeera that opposition forces had moved into the city at approximately 1.30am last night (local time). "[They say that] they found it an unarmed city. They had no problem getting in there, they did not encounter any resistance," reported Sue Turton, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Benghazi. Celebratory gunfire was head in Benghazi, the opposition's stronghold in the east of the country, as news filtered in of the taking of Gaddafi's hometown. Al Jazeera has not been able to independently verify the report, and the Reuters news agency has quoted a witness in Sirte as saying that the city is still under government control. An engagement between pro- and anti-government forces occured about 30km from the city of Nofilia (which itself is 180km from Sirte), where pro-Gaddafi forces are shelling positions near a large opposition force that was advancing on Gaddafi's hometown. A column of military vehicles was seen leaving Sirte on Sunday, heading west towards the capital, Tripoli." If this news is true, it would seem to imply that Gadhafi's forces are in full flight. That could be a BIG IF. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM As I posted above: "So what happens when Gadaffi's forces dig in deep in the next town the rebels try to take, where they can't be bombed out via air power or missile strikes without likely injury to the civilian population? And why haven't Gadaffi forces mined the major roads as they've retreated?" Too tough a question to wrestle with or am I off-topic? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:00 AM I know that for fuck sake, LH. Jaysus. Give it a rest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:36 PM The only reason Mr Kadhafi has "a thousand names" is that we English-speaking and other western people are apparently unable to agree among ourselves on how to spell a name that is written in a completely different script (Arabic) in another language. We don't know how to spell it, although we can all hear how it's pronounced if a Libyan says it! ;-) We all hear the same thing, therefore, but our people end up spelling it 50 different ways. I trust that the Libyans spell it one way, consistently, when they write it in Arabic script. So who does this make the ignorant party here...us or them? ;-D And why should Gadhaffi himself be ridiculed for the fact that WE can't agree on how to spell his name? God knows...there are enough legitimate reasons to ridicule him! But that's not one of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:47 PM From BBC "the Benghazi-based Transitional National Council said the rebels could begin exporting oil in less than a week. Spokesman Ali Tarhouni said oil fields in territory under opposition control were already producing more than 100,000 barrels of crude a day. He said the Gulf state of Qatar had agreed to help bring it to market" News reports like this and others that Gaddafi's forces are increasingly turning tail and fleeing as the pro democracy rebels advance closer to Tripoli are signals that the end game may be in sight. We can only hope that it will be achieved with minimal loss of life....Insh'Allah. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:44 PM TMWATN -- the man with a thousand names reference to an earlier post where I mentioned Libya's leader having so many spellings for his name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM Canadian General to Take NATO Command of Libya By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Published: March 25, 2011 at 1:12 PM ET TORONTO (AP) — A Canadian general will take over command of the NATO mission in Libya. Canadian Defense Minister Peter MacKay said Friday that Lt.-Gen. Charles Bouchard has been designated to lead the alliance's military campaign in Libya. Bouchard is stationed in Naples, Italy, at the Allied Joint Force Command. Bouchard's recent job was deputy commander of NORAD, reporting to an American general. "He will be commander of the NATO operations, yet to be fully defined NATO operations," MacKay said. The international coalition confronting Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has agreed to put NATO in charge of enforcing the no-fly zone. It was still trying to hammer out a deal to relieve U.S. forces of command of all military operations in the country. U.S. President Barack Obama and Defense Secretary Robert Gates have both said that American command of the operations would last only a few days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM 999- So when I google "TMWATN" i find this phrase: "TMWATN will burn in the nuclear flames of Barneyland's cannibal realms!" Now it's all clear! I was raised with fire arms on our farm but when someone suggested to me that it might be a good idea to carry one while I was working in a remote area of Ethiopia, I wisely decided that was not a good idea. It would have been a good idea to have been more cautious, however, but that is thread drift, and I won't have that! I obviously survived. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: BTNG Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM war has been a spectator sport since William Russell reported for The Times from The Crimean War and interesting book about war reporting is The First Casualty: The War Correspondent as Hero and Myth-maker from the Crimea to Kosovo by Phillip Knightley |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM "War has become a spectator sport..." War has been a spectator "sport" ever since reporters were filing reports from the front lines to newspaper readers anxious to hear of the latest battles and to dissect them at the local watering hole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM Well you should, Liz. War has become a spectator sport (with NO offense meant to posters here) and there are casualties that sicken us all. TMWATN is very bad news. The scene in the movie Old Yeller where the dog is put down because it was rabid: had to be done, but every kid in North America was in tears because of it, me included. I won't be in tears when TMWATN is dethroned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:26 AM I have a bad feeling about interfering in the Libyan situation...a very bad feeling...I just hope I'm wrong.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM "And why haven't Gadaffi forces mined the major roads as they've retreated?" From what Al Jazeera is reporting, his forces, when overcome by the pro-democracy rebels, are fleeing in disarray, leaving their armaments behind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Mar 11 - 10:11 AM Leaping lizards! And creeping crud! So what happens when Gadaffi's forces dig in deep in the next town the rebels try to take, where they can't be bombed out via air power or missile strikes without likely injury to the civilian population? And why haven't Gadaffi forces mined the major roads as they've retreated? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:42 AM I apologize for losing my rag. Israel might be one of the few buttons of mine that can still get pushed. I've seen too many threads disappear into Israel/Israeli bashing. Sorry. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM And who might they be, then? I might suggest, in your response (if you can be arsed) to be fairly careful with your use of "Islamo-fascist." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: bobad Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:36 AM I have no patience for Islamo-fascist scumbag terrorists who cause misery, insecurity and fear for thousands of ordinary families. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Mar 11 - 07:13 AM Purposes of threads have a delicious habit of not remaining what the originator intended. If I had a quid for every thread of mine that got derailed (and that I'd joined in the derailing of) I'd be King Croesus. Libya and Israel are connected in that an awful lot of us scratch our heads at that ready intervention of the west in an oil country whilst similar atrocities meted out to Palestinians are left unchallenged. And don't tell they're not similar. They are not identical but they both cause misery, insecurity and fear for thousands of ordinary families. For the record, I am not one of those people who think Israel and its people have no right to be. I might have thought in 1948, had I been a sentient being at the time, that there should have been no right to an Israel, but we are where we are and I have no patience with Israel wiper-off-the-mappers, Holocaust-deniers, antisemites and similar scumbags. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:47 PM Thanks, 6. I have answered and I'll phone you tomorrow. Best to you. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: number 6 Date: 26 Mar 11 - 11:01 PM 999 - I sent you a pm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 26 Mar 11 - 10:30 PM That rant wasn't addressed to you, Steve. It was addressed to people who think Israel and its people have no right to be. I doubt you didn't understand a word I said. I understand your words, and we seem to speak the same language. The purpose of this thread was Libya and what's happening there. How Israel got involved is a mystery to me, but it's not something I can let pass without remark. Israel has NOTHING to do with Libya in the context of what's being discussed. People who wish to slag the country or its people should start another thread and have at it there. imo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM C'mon, Charley, thread drift is a time-honoured and honourable pursuit. Nearly every serious thread I ever post gets hijacked. Big deal. You can hardly expect intemperate rants of the sort Teribus posted to go unchallenged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 26 Mar 11 - 08:17 PM Look, gang, just take your continuing "discussion" of Israel/Palestine to another thread. I might even contribute if folks are not too abusive. Sure, a lot of issues in the Middle East are connected but this thread was an attempt to focus on what was happening in Libya. Please respect that. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM Perhaps Bruce, in a moment of greater clarity, will try to focus and articulate his feelings a little more accurately than that. Frankly, I didn't understand a bloody word of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Bobert Date: 26 Mar 11 - 07:15 PM Like I said, all that is going on offers both the Palestinians and the Israelis the "political cover" to make progress toward the safety of both... This has gone on long enough for both sides... Time to get on toward a peaceful and mutually respectful resolution... Gotta strike while the iron is hot and it may not be this hot ever again... Just MO... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 26 Mar 11 - 06:53 PM The Israeli/Palestinian land split--tough shit. The Israelis (read Jews) bought the land. When they offered to teach the Palestinians how to use the land to produce (the Sinai), the offer was refused. The people who suffer on behalf of Palestinians are never there. They post their diatribe here. I face death, as do we all, and had I a choice I would meet my maker at places like Little Big Horn (I'da been Sioux), Thermopylae, Dieppe, Juno Beach, Andersonville, Dien Bien Phu, hoping I could die with people of courage. You folks with lotsa cash need to hang onto it. Those of us with little or none--well, we just don't see it the same way you do. I respect your right to think of us as shit, but I will respect my right to say you are an ass. My grandfather fought your fucking war, dug your coal, helped feed your children--in fact, helped feed you. Fuck your attitude and your disdain. On the worst day of his life he was better than you. My real name is Bruce Murdoch. I live in Ormstown, Quebec. If you ever wish to talk in person, I'm easy to find. Until then, piss off. Best personal regards, BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM 2: For UN to pay any attention to anything any Palestinian delegation might say that Palestinian delegation would have to state very clearly and very forcefully that it recognises Israel's borders, sovereignty and right to exist free from any threat of attack. It should be remembered that the UN was the first body to recognise the state of Israel followed by the Governments of the USA and the USSR. Hamas will never accept that and that is why the international community refuse to recognise Hamas as the Government of anybody. Well gosh, it's clear whose side you're on. You want the UN to pay attention to the Palestinians only when the latter promise to recognise Israel's borders. That's a laugh, innit, considering that Israel has been in breach of UN resolutions regarding borders for almost half a century. In addition, you want Israel, uniquely on this planet, to be free from any threat of attack. You fail to spell out what Israel itself might have to do to expedite this, as though it would just be a matter of everyone else in the region just lying down and letting Israel get on with whatever they want to get on with. I'll remind you that, inconveniently for you and your fellow-traveller Israel apologists, Hamas was elected in free and fair elections, and I would also remind you that if you ever want to get people to change you have to sit down with them and negotiate, not demonise them in the way you have done in this post. Even Ian Paisley will tell you that. Since when has it been OK to collectively punish a million and a half people, as in Gaza, because they voted the way you didn't want them to? You know damn well that there has to be no such thing as "never" in politics, and that, one fine day, someone will sit down with Hamas and negotiate, and that Hamas will find accommodation with Israel. There are factions within Hamas who already acknowledge that that must happen one day. Anyone, like you, who persists in confusing silly megaphone rhetoric with hard reality has simply not learned the lessons of history. Your timeline account of the recent history of this conflict, apart form being exceptionally partial in its detail as I've already indicated, also completely omits any mention of the perfectly justified grievances of the Palestinians before and during the birth of Israel. I could also add that you neglect to mention the utterly disproportionate responses of Israel to attacks (which I condemn, actually, believe it or not). In ten years, around a dozen Israelis have been killed by Hamas rockets, whilst at the same time around twenty children per year are killed either by Israeli snipers or, worse, remote-controlled firearms, for the sin of playing within 300 metres of the Gaza border. Cast Lead killed 1300 Gazan civilians, including 300 children. In the same operation, Israeli casualties numbered just thirteen soldiers. Hundreds of Palestinians are currently incarcerated in Israeli jails without charge and without knowing why they are there. Almost 300 Palestinian children are in custody in Israel. The building of illegal settlements continues apace. A Palestinian approaching an Israeli roadblock will typically wait for two days to get through (for Israeli Jews it's instantaneous, of course). Whole families have been divided, and farmland stolen, by the construction of that apartheid wall. Israeli attacks on Gaza destroyed schools, hospitals, power stations and water works, and now building materials are not allowed in to allow reconstruction. I think that you, and other apologists for Israel's atrocities, had better address each and every one of these points, one by one, before coming out with further "justifications" predicated mainly on apparent serious memory lapses. If you have any interest at all in being fair, that is. I probably shouldn't be holding my breath, should I. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: akenaton Date: 26 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM Why are we not protecting the "civilians" of Brega and Tripoli from the rebels? Do they only carry "pop" guns? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 26 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM Well, evidently we can begin posting Rebel victories again: From Al Jazeera: "Libyan rebels are advancing westwards after recapturing the strategic eastern town of Ajdabiya from government controls with the help of coalition airstrikes. Reports on Saturday afternoon suggested rebels had already pressed onto the oil-port town of Brega, 80 kilometres to the west. 'We are in the centre of Brega,' rebel fighter Abdelsalam al-Maadani told the AFP news agency by telephone." Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Teribus Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM As far as applying the Gaddafi Precedent goes, there would be a stronger case for action against Hamas in Gaza than against Israel. The Arab League demanding military action?? They might demand it all they want, they, and the world and its dog, know they won't do anything about it - 1948; 1956; 1967; 1973; 2006; 2008 - They know if they act against Israel they will be defeated, hopefully this time the Israeli's will finish the job once and for all, both sides in this mess have had over 60 years to reach an agreement and every time the Arabs have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in order to continue "their struggle". "After this attack was repulsed Iranian forces counterattacked and occupied Iraqi territory until the end of the war (which ended soon after the US shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, which was taken by the Iranians as an indication that the USA was at the point of moving in in support of Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime)." Utter bullshit Kevin. The Aegis weapons control system on the USS Vincennes is extremely fast and cannot be overidden once it perceives a threat. The British DLG HMS Hampshire nearly shot down a civilian cargo 707 in the Malacca Straits during the Indonesian Confrontation under similar circumstances, but the Commanding Officer (who in those days was the ONLY person who could give the order to "engage") took a very courageous decision to wait until one of two things happened: 1: The aircraft turned away sharply and the radar echo split in two with one continuing on towards the ship indicating that the aircraft had launched one or more stand-off weapons (Kelt missiles) - in this case Hampshires weapons systems shoot down the missiles 2: The Rating manning the MRS-3 Director gets a visual on the aircraft and positively identifies it. What happened was the latter. In accordance with the "Rules of Engagement" in force at the time the Captain of HMS Hampshire would have been fully justified in taking on that aircraft and shooting it down - just as the Captain of the USS Vincennes was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Teribus Date: 26 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM Gaffney is way of mark in describing his scenario 1: There is no state of palestine, there never has been. 2: For UN to pay any attention to anything any Palestinian delegation might say that Palestinian delegation would have to state very clearly and very forcefully that it recognises Israel's borders, sovereignty and right to exist free from any threat of attack. It should be remembered that the UN was the first body to recognise the state of Israel followed by the Governments of the USA and the USSR. Hamas will never accept that and that is why the international community refuse to recognise Hamas as the Government of anybody. 3: For Gaffney's scenario to unfold the United States of America has got to renege on it's long standing bi-lateral defence treaty with Israel, which up until the liberation of Iraq was the only functioning democracy in the region - The United States of America will not do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: number 6 Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:40 PM I'm not trying to hijack this thread and I'm certainly not trying to revive the old pro-con Israel position argument (far from it) ... what I'm trying to get across is the 'Gadhafi precedent' which the UN sanctioned the no fly zone plus used on Libya could be used against Israel ... which in itself could be used as an argument against this whole bombing thing which is the title of the thread. I'm not stating that the U.S. wants to dominate the mideast and I'm not stating the Israelis's deserve to get their ass whipped like Gadhafi. I'm just stating some facts that I feel can make the mideast even more unstable than it already is as a result of the 'Bombing of Tripoli has begun' I also am aware that Frank J. Gaffney Jr is somewhat of a right wing advocate which I certainly do not agree with, but regardless what he has to say concerning the 'Gadhafi precedent' pretty well sums up some of my concerns. and as I stated before only time will tell, and I do hope for the best for all the people of the mid-east and n. Africa, Muslims and Jews alike. and with that being said for all it's worth I further add my adieu to this thread. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Charley Noble Date: 25 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM Sigh, another thread totally derailed. Now I know that GfS is in an orbit all her own but I've totally missed out on why Israel is the next state to be abandoned in the US plan to dominate the world. And it's all supposed to make sense. The Obama Administration has ben mildly critical of some recent actions taken by Israel, as well as actions taking by some factions of the Palestinians. But I'm not getting a hint that the US would dare to abandon our loyal ally Israel in favor of any of its neighbors, even if they had a BIG pool of oil. Is this Haliburton's master plan? Let's get back to keeping score of what's going on and about in Libya. Is it true that 90% of the Rebel leadership is on the payroll of Osama Ben-Laden? Actually I just made that up but feel free to respond ardently. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: number 6 Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM btw .... these 2 links are the same editorial by Frank J. Gaffney Jr. .... but from 2 different sources ... I don't think it is some wacky conspiracy theory, but provides some valid food for thought. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: number 6 Date: 25 Mar 11 - 08:04 PM "Still no-one has stated how or why what is currently happening in Libya creates a precedent that would allow attacks on Israel" The Gadhafi Precedent Israeli Unity Coalition The Gadhafi precedent Washington Times This is why I brought Israel inot this thread. It concerns me. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Bobert Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:53 PM Hmmmmm??? Unless I am missing something everything that is happening in Northern Africa and the Middle East has nothing to to with Isreal... ...but everything to do with way too much income inequality and lack of opportunities for a young, educated generation... You know, kinda more like the US... In come inequality and lack of opportunity... Israel get a pass on this tho... ... it might provide an excellent opportunity for some progress on Isreal's Palestinian situation if the hard-liners can look at what is happening and see for themselves that everyone would be better off if they resolved their differences... I mean, the Palestinian situation is not unlike other countries in the area with a major lack of opportunity for its people... That's what this is all about after all... It's not about dictators... It's about one's ability to use his or her intellect and education to make a danged living... Nothing less and nothing more... The first thing all these dictators do is offer $$$... Screw $$$... Offer jobs!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: pdq Date: 25 Mar 11 - 07:39 PM I have never heard anyone seriously suggest that the US shot down the Iranian Air Bus as a warning to the Iranians. That is outrageous and should be taken back pronto. The Air Bus was flying toward a US military vessel with a full crew, and the captain was obligated to protect his men. The Iranian aircraft was spotted on radar, not by sight. It was warned repetedly to turn away, but it's radios were tuned to civilian bands, not military radio frequencies and did not respond. The US captain never recovered completely from the shock of what happened. To say this act was intentional is an outrage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: Teribus Date: 25 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM Still no-one has stated how or why what is currently happening in Libya creates a precedent that would allow attacks on Israel - That 999 is where Israel comes into the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM Iran did invade Iraq. Check your facts. The war was initiated by Iraq launching an air and land invasion of Iraq, without any warning, ultimatum or declaration of war. After this attack was repulsed Iranian forces counterattacked and occupied Iraqi territory until the end of the war (which ended soon after the US shot down a civilian Iranian airliner, which was taken by the Iranians as an indication that the USA was at the point of moving in in support of Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime). After the war Iran withdrew to the prewar boundaries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun From: GUEST,999 Date: 25 Mar 11 - 03:15 PM Well, Steve, considering our stormy start, I have come to see you as very reasonable--not as reasonable as me of course, but close. Teribus and I go way back, and he is one tough sonuvagun, and the kind of guy I hope to have in my corner when the s##t hits the fan. I don't know either of you in real life, but I'd bet another buffalo head nickel that you two would get along. imo, and let's don't you guys mess up my hopes and wishes. ;-) EUREKA, I just got it. The semicolon then dash then end parenthesis actually constitute a wink. (Please don't ask what I'm doing posting from the floor on my side.) :) |
