BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM

Gadaffi provided to his people, free education, free health service and cheap housing.
As a leader, he was far ahead of any in North Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM

A snippet from 'The Great French Duel'

"The next thing in order was the choice of weapons. My principal said he was not feeling well, and would leave that and the other details of the proposed meeting to me. Therefore I wrote the following note and carried it to M. Fourtou's friend:

Sir: M. Gambetta accepts M. Fourtou's challenge, and authorizes me to propose Plessis-Piquet as the place of meeting; tomorrow morning at daybreak as the time; and axes as the weapons.
I am, sir, with great respect,

Mark Twain."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 09:37 AM

I'd sooner a situation in which, when a war starts, the efforts of both sides were spent on trying to kill the leaders on the other side, rather than ordinary citizens or soldiers. But I don't think the leaders on either side see it quite like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM

Steve, you are a smart guy--please read NO facetiousness into that observation. What would you rather have seen happen? The Man with a Thousand Spellings was killing many of his own people just as he has killed many foreign nationals through his association with terrorist groups. This time he's on the receiving end of some bad shit. So, again, how would you have handled it if you'd had your druthers?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:18 AM

*Sigh* the lynch mob rules...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM

" ...   similar price tag..."    That's why Secret Service-type groups exist.

Leaders know it goes with the territory.

Perhaps you're not interested in the job of leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:09 AM

"   send a bloody posse... ".

So sorry you're squeamish about the civil rights of Mr. Gadhafi.    Interestingly, he doesn't
himself seem to be squeamish about the issue.    In fact he's had no hesitation in putting a price on the head of the provisional government's leader. Turnabout is fair play.   Perhaps you've heard of this expression.   Or perhaps not.

And he keeps talking about looking forward to being a martyr.   The least we can do is oblige him---and by doing so,, keep lots more people alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM

"A $10 million price on Gadhafi's head

And Gaddafi could put a similar price tag on the heads of Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy.

There's a reason our leaders fight shy of that kind of thing...

..........................

Libya: Six injured as US team botches rescue of downed airmen : US forces sent into Libya to rescue two downed American airmen botched the mission by shooting and wounding friendly villagers who had come to help, witnesses have said.

Tricky, given that the whole official reason for this war is to protect civilians. Still, they were Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:18 AM

An excellent "rent a mob" in Tripoli - all nutters!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

Ah, the ghost of that criminal Ronnie Raygun refuses to lie down...

Why don't we just send a bloody posse?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:25 AM

Sorry you don't like evidence, LH.    Thinking people tend to prefer it to a blanket statement with no support.    Thought you might be interested. But perhaps not.

Look, Hitler was held by many Germans for many years in high esteem--and fear. At the end, it was just fear.   And there was no future for his state.   Exactly the same thing is happening to Gadhafi.   

And the process would be expedited by a $10 million price on his head.

It would be a cheap investment for the West. Either somebody would carry out the mission--or Gadhafi's paranoia would increase--and steadily alienate more Libyans-until his removal. Probably soon.

It's always good to encourage paranoia in your opponents--(as long as they are not nuclear-armed. )

Tends to impair their judgment.




Meanwhile, the West should provide intelligence, weapons, and training to the insurgents.

And no ground troops.

As all sides agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 01:12 AM

"If you think Saif is held in the same esteem, let's have some evidence."

Oh, yes! Let's. By all means! Okay...so, what we have to do is this: Start a big fundraising drive on Mudcat which will raise funds sufficient to send Teribus to Libya for a few weeks so that he can search out the evidence firsthand, compelling and undeniable evidence, well-documented and notarized...evidence sufficent to convince Ron Davies that Teribus might have some real basis for imagining that Saif could successfully take over in Gadhafi's place if Gadhafi were gone.

Then Ron will be satisfied. He will have the "evidence".

I think it's worth doing. What do the rest of you think? Should we get Max to announce such a fundraising drive? Personally, I love the idea of sending Teribus to Libya for an extended period to find evidence that will meet Ron Davies' requirements, and I am confident that he would do a fine job at it.

Okay, I'm gonna start this thing off. I will contribute 25 cents toward this worthy objective of Teribus securing corroborative evidence in Libya to back up what he says in order to make Ron happy.

Anyone else? ;-D

Subject: The HUMAN SHIELDS have just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:49 PM

The human shields are coming the human shields are coming

But before we get into that, the 1st order of business is changing the name of the mission 'Odessey Dawn'. It seems Carnival Cruise LInes has a ship by that name and is threatening a lawsuit.
How about Illiad Dusk ?!

I tuned into to CNN today and saw a reporter in Libya steaming mad and yelling aboutsomeone being just plain nuts and that he expected goverments to lie to him but not war time journalists. He was royally PO'ed

After making sure I wasn't watching FOX I listened more carefully.
He said the whole lie is hypocritical and that he is angry that the entire story about human shields is "just plain nuts!"
It turns out that the FOX reporter in Libya, who incidently never leaves the hotel, reported on FOX news that CNN,NBC and CBS reporters were taken as human shields by Goverment forces and that it is not clear if some had volunteered to be a human shield for Muamer Qadafy. "I am shocked and disappointed that the FOX reporter would say such a thing when the only time he is even seen by fellow journalists is at breakfast. Gary Thagen should know that reporters take the goverment tour just to make sure that they can correct any misleading editing the goverment may try. The charge of human shields is ridiculous on its face yet they are sticking to that absurd story.


Jeez Louise, I am proud of this guy. It seems he has never watched FOX news in his life or he would have been desensitized to their reporting style by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM

"..immediately replaced by his son Saif"

You cannot assume that Libyans would consider the son the embodiment of Libya the way Gadhafi is now seen by many Libyans.   A much better analogy would be the end of the 3rd Reich.   Removing Gadhafi will cause his state to collapse--because of the way he has constructed it--as Hitler did in Germany.

A $10 million price on Gadhafi's head would test the loyalty of his mercenaries rather severely. And is likely to save the West (and the insurgents) a lot of grief (and money).

If you think Saif is held in the same esteem, let's have some evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:42 PM

I think Obama is unifying our country's polarization.....Now both sides can't stand him!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: number 6
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:35 PM

Libya attacks spark fight over cost

excerpts woth noting from the aboce link

"Rep. Dennis Kucinich, an Ohio Democrat, said Tuesday that he would try to block federal dollars from going to military operations in Libya.

"We have already spent trillions of dollars on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which descended into unwinnable quagmires," Kucinich said in a statement. "Now, the president is plunging the United States into yet another war we cannot afford."

"President Obama has stressed since the start of the operation that the intervention in Libya would be brief. "Let me emphasize that we anticipate this transition to take place in a matter of days and not a matter of weeks," he said Monday."


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM

152 Tomohawks launched
food and fuel for 6 ships and crew
1 crashed fighter
misc.


total bill so far; 800 million before the misc.

Number of lives saved
priceless

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999-- Reuters
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:35 PM

Canadians abort Libya attack, fearing casualties

Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:25pm GMT

OTTAWA, March 22 (Reuters) - Canadian military aircraft joined in a mission against ground targets in Libya on Tuesday, but did not drop their bombs amid concern there might be civilian casualties, military officials said.

Officials said two CF18 aircraft were assigned to attack a unspecified Libya airfield along with other aircraft from the U.S.-led coalition.

"Upon arrival on the scene in the target area, the air crew became aware of a risk (of collateral damage) they deemed as too high," Major General Tom Lawson, Canada's Assistant Chief of the Air Staff told reporters.

The Canadian jets returned safely to base.

Canada has sent six CF18 fighter jets to the operation and a frigate. It also has refueling aircraft in the region.

It was the second mission for Canadian planes in the campaign to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya to halt attacks on rebels and civilians and open the way for humanitarian help. It was the first time they had been assigned to attack a target.

Defense Minister Peter MacKay said that while the United States is still coordinating air operations, NATO was discussing if and how it should take over the mission.

"There is a further discussion if there will be an evolution of command and control of the entire mission. So no decision have been taken thus far," MacKay told a briefing. (Reporting Allan Dowd, Editing by David

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM

No, but he's clearly become "dispensable" as far as the West is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM

Kadaffy who said 700,000 Libyans in the east will be attacked and killed.

He didn't actually. He said that the opposition was just a few hundred, who would be killed if they resisted.

Mind, I don't think we should rely on anything he said, and he's clearly a murderous bastard.But there doesn't seem much reason for thinking he's unusually murderous compared to the other dictators we cosy up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM

Obama will be criticized no matter what he does, Donuel, just as Bush would have been criticized before him, only by different people. Don't worry about it. ;-)

It's quite correct that Obama has behaved illegally, because like a whole long series of American presidents he has taken the country to war without the consent of Congress (after voting on it in Congress). That is illegal, because it's unconstitutional, but almost every president since FDR has done it, so there's nothing unusual about Obama doing it. They have a war, but don't bother declaring it, that's all.

Therefore, although I am observing that he did something unconstitutional and therefore illegal...I am not raising hell about it or pretending to be OUTRAGED! ;-D It's just one more case of the executive office in the USA acting as if it didn't need Congressional approval, and the rest of the government (aside from Dennis Kucinich, that is!) acting as if they didn't notice. It's standard stuff.

So don't make the mistake of imagining I'm up in arms about it. I'm not. I'm just bemused at how they all pretend to worship the Constitution, but they selectively get around it by doing whatever they want to, regardless...

I think it's also illegal to invade another country for quelling an internal revolt...no matter how much you disapprove of the government that's doing the quelling...

But again, the laws aren't really the determining factor at all. The determining factor is a combination of:

1. strategic interests

and

2. whether or not you can get enough public support to invade that other country

If so, and if the strategic interests are weighty enough, then the invasion (or other form of attack) will go ahead, and most people will pretend it is legal, they'll even believe it's legal, and the usual complications will follow.

And EVERYONE involved will swear they are doing it for the most laudable, patriotic, and humanitarian reasons...but they're all doing it for their own gain.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

Do you remember when President CLinton was told that there was a real holocaust taking place in Rawanda?

He did nothing and over one million people were killed one or two at a time with machetes. Clinton said it was his greatest regret to have done nothing regarding Rawanda.

Obama is apparently responding before a holcaust that was promised by Kadaffy who said 700,000 Libyans in the east will be attacked and killed.

The obvious question is why believe Kadaffy? The obvious answer is that we believe in Libyan oil with or without Kadaffy above all else.

The message over on FOX news is that Obama was a failure for not responding and now that he has responded, Obama is a total failure who in fact may now be legally insane because he responded.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM

Guest 999: "And he'll be taken into custody just how, Steve?"

I think Steve would prefer for Qaddafi to evolve a jail cell around him!
He ain't bangin' on all eight.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM

As Richard Nixon used to say, 999, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." ;-)

Kadhafi appears to be a man who doesn't give up easily. (And he's very accustomed to getting his own way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

As plain as the ass on a rainbow-butt monkey!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM

It's an Alamo situation for Kaddafi and his soldiers. WILL their leader draw a line in the sand an say, "If you'd like to leave, please do." WHAT ARE the odds?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM

I heard a further category in this caper this afternoon.......ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

I also think Teribus has made some very good points. If you assassinate one tribal potentate, another quickly rises in his place...in this case, it would be Kadhafi's son, of course...and if the son was then assassinated, another such would rise in his place, and right out of the same tribal power structure.

Teribus also says "As far as the armed forces of the Arab countries go it should be remembered that they are there not to protect the country from an external aggressor, they exist to protect the ruling caste."

Yes......okay....but it's overstating the case a little. ;-) What I mean is, yeah, their number one purpose is definitely to protect the ruling caste and keep the domestic public in line....but that doesn't mean that they will not at least attempt to resist an external aggressor...or to launch an external aggression of their own...if given the orders to do so. They most certainly will do both, because it's part of their job. The only question is how effectively will they do it? I doubt that the Libyan Army would do it very effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:14 PM

And he'll be taken into custody just how, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM

I can't say I often agree with Teribus, but I do on this one. An assassination in the final quarter of WW2 may be different, but the idea that if Hitler had been killed in say 37 that people like Himmler would have opted for a quiet life in the country minding their own business is, I suggest, unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:32 AM

Yeah, I'll give you an argument, lynch mob. We live in countries that purport to abide by the rule of law. No matter how vile a criminal may be he's entitled to due process. If you spout on at home about democracy and justice, then mete out ugly brutality in someone else's country, you are absolutely no better than they are. What happened to do as you would be done by?

Not as much as you need manners...

This from a man preaching assassination on a forum! Ha bloody ha.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM

Evidently one of the US pilots was lifted our by copter.

The other was warmly welcomed by villagers and is probably lifted out by now as well.

If I only believed in hell, it would be nice to think of Gadhafi and his sons roasting there slowly. Anyone have any marshmallows?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:43 AM

Oh well, listened to a wonderful Sarah McLachlan gig from 3 March at lunchtime today!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:28 AM

THe first US plane has crashed in libya. The military was qucik to point out it was not shot down but instead suffered mechanaical failure.

JEEZZ I would have thought they would have loved to say they were shot down instead of admitting that someone filled the tank with diesel instead of kerosene and put wiper fluid where the transmission fluid should go.

Being a surviving hero seems better than being seen as a flaming idiot

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM

Assassination?

Iraq - Would it have done any good to assassinate Saddam Hussein?

Nope he would have been replaced by one or other of his sons who were ten times worse and a damn sight more unstable. At the time the power was held by a single tribal group that had entrenched itself over the period of two decades. The Saddam Fedaheen; the Special Republican Guard and the Republican Guard were all formed, manned and equipped to keep Saddam Hussein and his family in power by terror and oppression.

Libya - Would it do any good to assassinate Muammar Gaddafi?

Nope he would be immediately replaced by his son Saif backed solidly by their tribe and their allies.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 10:21 AM

biLL: "hey .... let's get Khadafi, and let's get Kissinger and we can have a 2 for 1 trial ... whew, what a trial that would be."

I'd go for that!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM

hey .... let's get Khadafi, and let's get Kissinger and we can have a 2 for 1 trial ... whew, what a trial that would be.

On second though, let's forget it .... way too much of the real truth could be exposed.

Just the thought of that can make one understand why these revolts are happening in the mideast.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM

It would be too good for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:25 AM

Not from me, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:23 AM

As I said earlier, it would be better for humanity if certain individuals were killed.   Hitler was one.   Gadhafi is another.

Any argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM

'Which would be "assassination." Do you need a reference?'

Not as much as you need manners.

It would be murder, mercy killing, getting even for his own past murders, etc. But a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, and a chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:06 AM

Assassination my ass. Shoot the arsehole!

And how peculiarly transatlantic of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:03 AM

Which would be "assassination." Do you need a reference?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 09:02 AM

Assassination my ass. Shoot the arsehole!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:56 AM

Well even Ronnie Raygun condemned the deliberate targeting for assassination of national leaders, so I guess that puts you two somewhat to the right of Genghis Khan. Of course, the CIA will be working on something covert, and some White House intern will be busy researching all the euphemisms for "assassination."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:45 AM

Excellent point, 999!

I was wondering the same thing.

At least the names rhyme, and a great song may yet spring from the depths of this thread!

I'm not convinced that Teribus is correct in his assessment of Libya above but I'll have to do some homework to find out. Certainly the newspapers and other media reports are little assistance.

The more disciplined elements within the rebel armed forces do not appear eager to pursue the retreating Gadhafi forces. Other volunteers rebels pursued them to the outskirts of Ajdabiya and then wisely retreated when they were met by concentrated gunfire and rockets.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM

Suppose the Libyan rebels win and the man who now rules Libya is finally brought to trial. How's he gonna be charged?


Gadhafi? Gaddafi? Khaddafy? Kaddafi? Qaddafi?


Considering that the mother fucker should have been shot years ago, I worry he will get off on a technicality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:00 AM

From the Beeb. UK Armed Forces minister Nick Harvey said it was unclear how long the mission would take, adding that using ground troops "could not be ruled out".

He told the BBC: "We don't know how long this is going to go on for, we don't know for example... whether this might arrive at a state of stalemate or whether in a sense it will be possible to degrade his military capability relatively fast.

"Ask me again in a week, perhaps we'll have a clearer picture of what sort of scale of campaign we're in for."

What resolution was it, then? Remind me...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:57 AM

Yanks just admitted they lost a F-15E Strike Eagle, it came down near the rebel-held city of Benghazi just after midnight local time.

The US military said the jet suffered mechanical failure (bullshit) and was not shot down by enemy fire. Both crew members ejected, were recovered and are safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:11 AM

Well, they said on BBC News this morning that the UN was in no way trying to bring about a regime change...

So, what the fook are we doing out there then?

Of COURSE that's what they're trying to do. They want the Crazy One out because they're all shitting in their designer suits that he'll stop the oil coming over, or make it impossibly expensive...

That's why they've bowed and kowtowed to him for all these decades, sold him Arms, given him this and that..

He's nuts..but...he's not as nutty as our Leaders, who, despite being leaders of bankrupt countries are now spending zillions on bombing Tripoli...WTF is that about?????

At this rate we'll ALL be owned by the IMF, that's if we're not already, of course..

You know that great song...'Say Goodbye to Oil' by Pete Morton? Well, I suggest we start teaching it in school assemblies...