BS: Matter and Spirit

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 07:48 PM

almost? Why, I'd swear....

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 07:35 PM

Now there is a face to inspire confidence. Almost presidential.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 07:32 PM

What, me worry?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:33 AM

Great comic -- LOL! Hey Bill, please don't worry. Worry just 'curses' 'em, remember? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:30 AM

and speaking of neat outfits..

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:13 AM

I have always been a big fan of Zippy's. ;-) He is a sweet and innocent soul, adrift in a chaotic world...and he has a really neat outfit.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:51 AM

I saw this in yesterday's paper....I could hardly wait until it came online today...*grin*

Today the drycleaners--tomorrow the world!

You will ALL eventually understand....(well, there are a couple I worry about..)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:22 PM

Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:00 PM

A young ventriloquist is touring the clubs and stops to entertain at a bar in a small town. He's going through his usual run of silly athiest jokes when a big man with glasses and a smartass expression in the fourth row stands on his chair and says, "OK jerk, I've heard just about enough of your denigrating athiest jokes. What makes you think you can stereotype skeptics that way? What do a person's philosophical opinions have to do with their worth as a human being? It's guys like you who keep men like me from being respected at the pub and in my community, of reaching my full potential as a person... because you and your kind continue to perpetuate discrimination against not only athiests but skeptics at large... all in the name of humor." Flustered, the ventriloquist begins to apologize, when the man pipes up, "You stay out of this mister, I'm talking to that little f..ker on your knee!"

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:40 PM

I think if one cannot muster one proof of spirit, perhaps 40 proof spirits is in order.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:15 PM

Regarding ego, 282etc, of COURSE I have an ego too! It's what keeps me coming back incessantly to this forum and having these contentious arguments with people like you and BillD, getting in one last word, knowing perfectly well all the while that it's a completely vain and futile futile exercise...but it's just too irresistible. It's my immature little ego that can't resist getting in one more WHACK at you guys...because my opinion of your attitude is identical to your opinion of mine.

We are both in the grip of ego reactions, and I know it.

I ever I can silence this chattering ego of mine, you will not find me here arguing about these matters at all anymore, I can assure you. I'll have much better things to do.

I laugh at you guys, and I laugh at myself too. We are all victims of the very same weaknesses. Egos playing wargames against egos, seeking verbal victories that are meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:06 PM

Yeah, bobad. For sure. ;-) Statements like that just drive conventional minds into meltdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:05 PM

No, my friend, proof is not for "egotistical losers", proof is for matters which CAN be proven.

I am not interested in trying to prove or disprove anything that you and I simply do not have not the wherewithal to prove or disprove. And we don't. Face it.

We (meaning someone who is technically qualified) can prove whether someone's DNA is on a knife blade. We can prove whether a solution contains arsenic. We can prove whose fingerprints are on a doorknob. But we CANNOT prove whether or not Spirit is real...because if it is, the evidence that it is will not be accessible in the physical world...and the physical world is the only available arena of what is normally termed "proof" by people who demand proof.

Aside from direct personal experiences, that is...

But direct personal experiences are no proof to anyone except the one who does experience them. So they are not the kind of proof a sceptic requires.

I never said I had PROOF of the Spirit, 282RA. I never said anyone did. You're the one who appears to think he has proof that there is no Spirit. And you don't. And you never will. Your position is no more defensible that is mine. I say that I think it very probable that Spirit exists. You, I presume, say it doesn't. Where's YOUR proof? ;-) Like me, you don't have any. And you never will.

I'm not trying to convert you into a believer in anything. I don't care what you believe. That's your business. I would just like you to have a measure of respect for beliefs that differ from yours, and leave people alone if they have a belief that differs from yours. That's what religious freedom and every kind of freedom is based upon...respect for differing beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:57 PM

"Yes, Spirit is reputed to be everything...at different frequency levels of vibration. If you lower the frequencies until you reach the rather low frequency spectrum of what we perceive as "matter" then spirit is seen as matter....in the form of gases or liquids or solids. Gases are at a higher vibratory level than liquids, and liquids are at a higher vibratory level than solids. Thought is also an aspect of Spirit, and it's at a way higher level than matter. Radio waves and magnetism are other aspects of Spirit, also at a higher vibratory level than matter. Energy and matter are both Spirit, and all Spirit is a singularity, but it manifests in billions of different ways."

HEH, HEH, HEH great troll bait LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: 282RA
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:48 PM

>>And I couldn't care less whether anyone is capable of proving any of it to you or not. I'm not involved in a police investigation or a scientific research project here, I'm talking on the Internet with opinionated people who are wedded to maintaining their present opinions, come hell or high water, for psychological reasons pertaining to their own sense of ego and security, and most of them don't have a clue why they are so motivated.<<

I can't believe how often you spew this crap and nobody calls you on it. It drips with arrogance and holier-than-thou posturing. And quit tossing out "ego" like it was some kind of insult. We all have one and, as hard as this may be for you to accept, that includes you. I'm opinionated and I have no trouble admitting it. You talk like you're the only one with answers and nobody wants to listen because our evil terrible egos get in your way. Maybe if you had proof of what you are saying, you'd make more headway. But then-pffft!--proof. Proof is for egotistic losers. Everyone should just put their egos aside and let you lead them around by the nose.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 05:32 PM

"If you don't agree with me and my meta-pantheistic generalities, you are obviously stubborn, closed-minded and stuck in narrow, outmoded viewpoints"

reputed? RePUTED? *grin*... GW Bush is 'reputed' to have opinions that weren't force-fed to him...but....some may doubt!

Mr 282 is very close to the way of it....if everything is sorta defined as 'God' or 'spitit', then you really have diluted all definitions beyond usefulness.

golly, Little Hawk....with broad statements like that, you remind me of an old limerick:

"There was faith healer of Deal,
Who said, "Although pain isn't real,
When I sit on a pin,
And it punctures my skin,
I dislike what I fancy I feel".

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 05:13 PM

You want to know more about kirlian photography, AR282? Look it up. Read some books. ;-) How hard can that be? Sounds to me like you'd rather just not know...

Yes, Spirit is reputed to be everything...at different frequency levels of vibration. If you lower the frequencies until you reach the rather low frequency spectrum of what we perceive as "matter" then spirit is seen as matter....in the form of gases or liquids or solids. Gases are at a higher vibratory level than liquids, and liquids are at a higher vibratory level than solids. Thought is also an aspect of Spirit, and it's at a way higher level than matter. Radio waves and magnetism are other aspects of Spirit, also at a higher vibratory level than matter. Energy and matter are both Spirit, and all Spirit is a singularity, but it manifests in billions of different ways.

The only reason it bothers you to hear any of this is because you don't already believe it.

And I couldn't care less whether anyone is capable of proving any of it to you or not. I'm not involved in a police investigation or a scientific research project here, I'm talking on the Internet with opinionated people who are wedded to maintaining their present opinions, come hell or high water, for psychological reasons pertaining to their own sense of ego and security, and most of them don't have a clue why they are so motivated.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: 282RA
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:47 PM

If everything is spirit then there is no such thing as spirit and the very concept wouldn't exist.

We only know what "spirit" means because we have "matter" to differentiate it from.

As for Kirlian photography, who knows what the hell that is? One reason I loathe discussion about Kirlian photography is that instantly we have to start wading through every self-professed guru's crap about spirit and matter when nobody knows WHAT Kirlian photography is photographing, if anything.

We'll never know what spirit or matter are since they are only our mental constructs to deal with something we do not understand. They are only labels and are utterly useless.

The value of proof is that it tells one if something is useless or not. Without proof, I don't believe. To believe without proof is worse than useless--it is dangerous and highly irresponsible behavior for anyone who regards themselves as intelligent. Believing without proof and even disdaining proof is something I expect from George W. Bush and you can see where it has gotten us.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:28 PM

Why are you so concerned about my hair lately? ;-) I know it's gorgeous, but....

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:11 PM

Now, George, don't be rude. It messes up your hair.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:40 PM

Nothing beats direct experience, guys. Beside that all else is just a lot of hot air.

Remember, because one believes something does not mean that one is out to PROVE it to anyone else. In my experience it's mainly just sceptics who are hung up on proving or disproving things that otherr people believe...mostly because it's a question of proving that they are right and someone else is wrong. That's what the ego loves to spend its petty little time doing.

And it makes no difference whatsoever to anyone else but that ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:38 PM

The researcher in Wolfgang's link makes an interesting, carefully tentative conclusion:

"With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE, the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG?22 Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s from onset of syncope.29,30 Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience.31 NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation.

Another theory holds that NDE might be a changing state of consciousness (transcendence), in which identity, cognition, and emotion function independently from the unconscious body, but retain the possibility of non-sensory perception.7,8,22,28,31

Research should be concentrated on the effort to explain scientifically the occurrence and content of NDE. Research should be focused on certain specific elements of NDE, such as out-of-body experiences and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory and background of transcendence should be included as a part of an explanatory framework for these experiences. "

I have pointed out this gap in models versus phenomena often when the subject comes up in threads. In Wolfgang's link alone there are two explicit (and a dozen implicit) documented cases of specific particulars being perceived and later verified, by a person who was clinically dead or completely comatose, but who reported an out of body capacity for accurate perception (at a time when the body had, apparently, NO capacity for perception as generally understood).

I have used the analogy in the past of believing that "all thought and perception is brain-generated" being akin to believing that your blue plastic cordless telephone, with its mysterious circuits and chips, actually contains the ability to generate all kinds of communications and opinions, if only you could figure out how the wiring worked.

The analogy gets extended in the present context: when one's phone gets broken and shattered, the owner is still quite capable of generating perceptions, opinions, and communications, if less able to deliver them over a distance because the phone is broken.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:33 PM

Oh, my gracious! *grin*

This IS the internet/WWW....lots of viewpoints are out there!

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:28 PM

another viwepoint

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:20 PM

Conference program

If you read the program and scan the list of contributors you see that this is not a conference devoted to an experience and all possible explanations but to just one particular explanation. Period. It is a conference of believers into afterlife.

If I read the world's first ever conference dedicated to near-death experiences (NDEs) I wonder how gullible they think we are. The International Association for Near-Death Studies makes yearly conferences since 1993. Conferences like the one posted above are nothing new.

Pim van Lommel, one of the more serious of the contributors of the conference has published an article about NDEs in Lancet. You can read it here and see how convincing it sounds to you. This is the serious stuff, most of rest is journalism. The conference organiser is a journalist herself. That's the level of argumentation I'd expect.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:57 AM

Here is an account of an experience I had some years ago:

Twenty five years ago, on a Sunday evening, I got a phone call with some bad news. My close friend Julie, mother of four young children, had just died. She had been driving her car along a country road, and had looked behind her to the two young children in the back seat, we think. She was hit by a moving train, went into a coma and died. The two children were unhurt and were found wandering in a field nearby. Julie was in a coma for three days before dying.

Julie and I had previously shared a large house in Burwood in Sydney - three families lived communally. We shared cooking, childcare, and lots of good times. We had mulberry trees out the front and back, and made mulberry pies, crumbles, tarts and jam. She was an incredibly kind and good natured person, and a very good friend. At the time of the accident she had moved further north and was living in Queensland on a farm.

I cried for hours that night, in shock at the news, angry thoughts ripping through me about the injustice of her death, how would her husband manage with the kids on his own, and running a business, why someone like her was taken so young (early 30s) and why such a lovely person should die. Finally, in the early hours of the morning, I had cried myself empty of any other thoughts or feelings. I just lay in the darkness, exhausted, just sort of empty of anything.

The bedside radio next to me turned on (by itself) and I heard
julie's voice and felt her presence as some lovely classical music softly played on the radio. She said "don't worry, I'm fine, I'm fine".

I rolled over, turned the radio off, turned it on again and off again, just checking to myself that it responded to being switched on and off, & trying to work out why it turned on. I went and took two herbal sleeping tablets and went to sleep.

I found out a year later at a reunion of her friends that two other women had had similar experiences on the same night. One had walked into the backyard at night, and had seen Julie hovering in the air in front of her - Julie didnt say anything but extended comfort. This woman was extremely shocked as this did not fit in with her preconceptions, she didnt believe in ghosts, or angels.

The other was a young woman who had been a neighbour of Julie's in Queensland - Julie came to her and asked her to take care of the children. This young woman helped considerably with the childcare until Julie's father remarried a few years later.

Anyone not present can analyse these experiences however they want. But that is speculation which may be very logical and commendable. but I say after having an experience like this, it would be illogical for me to believe that Julie's life was over when she was hit by the truck.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:36 AM

I recommend an interesting book by Craig Mitchell, an Australian ambulance officer. As an ambulance officer his job was assisting in reviving people, and over the years he gathered stories from many survivors, some of who had "near death experiences". His book tells many of the first hand accounts of those people who died, were resuscitated, and had an account of an other world experience.

NEAR DEATH STORIES FROM THE OTHER SIDE published by Mandarin 1996

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 07:15 PM

Yeah, Bill, the truth is we all know very little... ;-) But most 19 year olds don't see themselves that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 07:07 PM

Now, you see, LH...therein lies a major difference between us *grin*...when I was 19, I had just spent a year in college, had gotten married, and was SURE I knew almost nothing! Philosophy was exhilarating, but stupifying...as was a wife.

Never got over it....I always have been aware how little I knew, but I was smart, and was also aware of how little everyone else knew.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:31 PM

Many people use "soul" in that sense, Bill. In fact I think we all use it that way sometimes.

I think I already know all the positive atheist arguments. I was using them all myself for years and years... ;-) They mostly hinge on a misunderstanding of the nature of "God". That is, they basically attempt to explain away a limitless infinity by treating it as various limited concepts. They all make perfect sense within their own little self-feeding loop of logic, and that's why they are so compelling. Believe me, I know. ;-)

As long as you accept various other people's primitive notions of "God" as the only viable definitions of "God", then it's easy to shoot down the idea of God using logic. God knows, I did it all through my feckless youth. When one is 19 years old one assumes one knows everything, after all... (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:17 PM

*mulling over how 'doubting' my soul can curse it if, in fact, it turns out there was none*...

I do, as a matter of fact, use the word 'soul' at times...it expresses a feeling and a depth of concern, and metaphorically conveys something....but no one who knows me well assumes I am granting some metaphysical 'reality' to the idea. It is personal, poetic and full of whatever emotion *I* choose to grant it under certain circumstances.....sometimes it is hard to find another word...

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM

LH..I don't worry over the small stuff, but it often gets mixed with the important stuff. Here in Mudcat, I respond to what I see that 'seems' to be indicative of a pattern....especially a pattern that influences serious aspects of daily life...(astrology, religion, conspiracy theories...etc.)

Of course every little belief doesn't overtly harm anyone! *smile* I see on another thread that some folks are going to 'celebrate' the solstice with some traditional ceremonies. They do not announce that they 'believe' that Wiccan-type ceremonies are in fact efficacious, and I am not inclined to worry about whether they do or not.....If they WERE to proclaim that they have real access to supernatural 'powers' and were affecting life and society, I might be concerned.

and, you know...*I* don't bring these issues up....I don't go seeking put-downs of various sacred cows and start threads mocking them; I just try to shine a bit of light on stuff that appears. Besides, I don't like the sneering attitude of many of the sites whose basic direction I agree with!

but, I did accidently stumble onto one site that has a pretty interesting, non-agressive approach to some of this thinking. It has a LOT of intelligent quotations and thought provoking writing on (mostly) the religious issues.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 03:05 PM

Well, according to the 4-part formula for cursing given above, to doubt one's own soul, in effect, curses it.

Interesting. :-]

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 02:38 PM

What the bleep do we know.

There is more energy, dimensions and matter than we can see or yet sense by any current technological means... but we know it is there because gravity "gives it's presence away".

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:53 PM

Yes, he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:47 PM

In affairs of the heart or of the spirit, a well-ordered, well-disciplined doubt can be just as harmful as a mad falsehood.

But one thing is for sure, I think. The only way to come to terms with the subject is to be true to what you yourself have seen and observed to be true, to take ownership and responsibility for your own integrity, and to seek to grow where you can. Bill is doing that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM

Oh, dear...somep'n went seriously wrong with my italics code in that last post...

[Is that aboutwhat you wanted?] clone

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM

Right, Bill. So you have an emotional ax to grind on the matter...and that's why it pushes my buttons. I can feel your emotional ax. It's disturbing to my peace of mind.

Clinton has an even bigger emotional ax of that sort than you do...far bigger in fact...and it makes him very aggressive, hostile, callous, insulting, and dismissive toward anyone who believes in or expresses interest in something that he doesn't believe in.

Behind such an emotional ax is a past pain or fear of some kind, covered over with armour, and that armour expresses itself in an attack upon whatever reminds him of what caused the original pain or fear.

You have stated yourself that you are worried that people will be "hurt, deluded, cheated, misled, misinformed, tricked, lulled, and otherwise fed concepts, beliefs and dubious information that creates much of the worlds woes."

That worries you bigtime! Well, it worries me too, Bill, but I guess not quite as much as it worries you...or I don't spread it around quite so widely as you do. I worry about religious fundamentalists and false gurus cheating and misleading people, sure! But I don't worry about every person in the world who believes in the soul or life after death or reincarnation cheating people. It would be damn silly to worry about that, in my opinion. Most people who believe in the soul or reincarnation or life after death are not out to mislead or cheat anyone and they are totally harmless...and they may be right.

I worry about governments misleading people. I worry about advertisors misleading people. I do not worry about someone who swears he saw a sasquatch in the woods misleading people. LOL! What harm can he possibly do?

I do not worry about someone who says he saw an alien vehicle misleading people. (I saw what I believe was probably alien vehicles on 2 occasions.) Even if he is mistaken...or whatever...what harm can it do?

Bill, I think your worrying is being aimed in unproductive and rather trivial directions, that's what I think. Worry about stuff that actually matters. Worry about religious cult leaders, governments, business people, lawmakers, people with the power to affect others in large numbers...don't waste your time worrying about every private individual who believes he has a soul or thinks he has seen a sasquatch or an alien vehicle.

Get your priorities in order, that's what I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 11:42 AM

gee, golly, Little Hawk...I seem to pushed one of YOUR buttons. That was pretty harsh.
...you ask me...
"But why do you doubt it? Why would you have any opinion on the matter at all?????"...I have answered this for you before, in various ways....but- one more time.

Because the world is full of folks pushing opinions on the matter who have no more access to ultimate information on it all than I do!<
Because superstition, wishful thinking and careless reasoning are being palmed off as 'insights' and 'truths', and people are being hurt, deluded, cheated, misled, misinformed, tricked, lulled, and otherwise fed concepts, beliefs and dubious information that creates much of the worlds woes.

Now, that being said, 'some' of this is relatively harmless and even understandable in view of our history and being only a few decades out of tens of thousands of years into being able to sort it out clearly. It is not easy to substitute research and work for quick "knee-jerk" (to quote a friend) responses to 'interesting' experiences and ideas.

I repeat....(but will no doubt be mis-heard again)...I am not in the business of proving that this...or that...claim is absolutely **wrong**, but merely showing that claims need substantiation beyond what is usually presented.
   I want, when I object, question or complain about certain notions to merely leave the alternative view nearby, in hopes that fence-sitters will think twice.

In spite of what you keep pegging me with, I'd LOVE to see certain things shown to be true. I just don't choose to buy into them blindly.


oh, daylia...re:" you are still full of doubt, still cursing the essence of your existence"
...piffle! I get along fine with my existence, especially since I detect no 'essence' to contend with one way or another. *grin*

Amos...I have seen the wonderful metaphor of the relevance of "the man behind the curtain"....it's a pity there aren't more little dogs available.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:22 AM

Oops I forgot ...

And my doubt is not "subjective and arbitrary"....it is based on 50 years of evaluating many, many ideas, claims, definitions, arguments, and supposed 'proofs'.

Yes. Even after 50 years of mental gymnastics, you are still full of doubt, still cursing the essence of your existence. Well, that's because you're using the wrong tool, Bill. You're never going to discover the truth about these matters using only your head.

THe mind is a wonderful tool, but a very poor master. Most people's minds are like runaway horses -- untrained, unrestrained and galloping full speed ahead.

Into disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:02 AM

I do ***NOT**** "believe there is no soul"...I doubt!

Hmmm ... this reminds me of something I found online the other day. Liked it so much I made a poster of it and hung it over my desk for inspiration. Went like this -

There are 4 ways to bless something or someone, including yourself -- to Affirm (ie I bless the beauty of this tree); to Appreciate (ie thank you for helping me); to Admire (I like your new car!) and to Anticipate (it's going to be a wonderful day!).

People who make a point of blessing the things they like and want in their lives, every day, find themselves happier, healthier, more satisfied, confident, prosperous, loving and successful human beings. In remarkably short order, too!

On the other hand, there are 4 ways to curse something or someone, including yourself -- to doubt, to blame, to criticize and to worry.

Unfortunately, most people spend their lives doubting, blaming, criticizing and worrying. People are, generally speaking, much more comfortable with and practiced at cursing than blessing. They have no idea just how powerful their own thoughts, expectations, and emotions really are! So their heads are always filled with negativity, which they empower even more by speaking it aloud and spreading it around to anyone who listens.

Then they sit back and wonder why they are unhappy, why life always seems so difficult, why nothing seems to go easily, why they never seem to have what they want, why they have so little energy and enthusiasm for life.

Just a little food for thought ...

Well, a little more "blessing" and a lot less "cursing", and just wait and see what'll happen!

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:16 AM

The real question is, who or what is watching and participating in those real clear dreams, Bill. There's the little man behind the curatin, right there, watching 'em.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:00 AM

Okay, Bill, you doubt there is a soul. That's fine. But why do you doubt it? Why would you have any opinion on the matter at all?????

I bet there are lots of people in the history of the world who didn't bother doubting OR believing in the soul. They had their minds on other stuff instead.

Why are you drawn...like a fly to a fresh...um..you know...whenever a discussion comes up about the soul, sasquatches, UFOs, OBE's, telepathy, and other unusual stuff like that? You have a more than normal interest in such matters...from the negative viewpoint. You are immediately drawn in, keen with the desire to make it plain that you DON'T believe in such things...or you DOUBT them pretty strenuously.

Why? Another 500 people might give it a momentary glance, think, oh...hmmm...well, that doesn't interest me a lot...and they'd move on.

No, Bill, you are attracted with a certain zeal to such subjects, as is Clinton, and a few other individuals here, and the zeal is a negative zeal. It is a desire to debunk and in many cases to ridicule certain things that push your buttons for some reason....and they are things you are not really in a position to debunk, because you honestly don't know whether or not there is a soul, whether or not there are alien vessels visiting the Earth, whether or not Bigfoot exists. You don't have a friggin' clue! You just have a kneejerk reaction, and you can't wait to express it and make it heard.

That's what's irritating about it. You guys are as dependable as mosquitos or chiggers. You can always be depended on to show up at the picnic and start biting when certain subjects like this come up.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:38 PM

I suggest it is the other way around, John O' -- glands have a lot to do with the beliefs in which they are carried.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: John O'L
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:21 PM

And please give some evidence that is at least in principal testable. - Pied Piper, 10 Aug 04

The problem was summed up in the opening post of this thread. That is an impossible ask, as we see.

It all depends on personal experiences, which may or may not be purely the result of provoked or random chemical reactions in the brain. Which way you lean will depend on how the composition of chemicals in your head is balanced.

It's all in your glands

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:12 PM

"Your belief that there is no soul is just as subjective and arbitrary as any other opinion out there about the matter. It is not based on evidence, it's based on an emotional predisposition on your part."

sorry, LH...that simply is not how it works. First, I do ***NOT**** "believe there is no soul"...I doubt! That is, none of the claims and/or reasons FOR the notion feel solid and convincing. It is too important a concept to just nod and say "sure, that sounds nice" And my doubt is not "subjective and arbitrary"....it is based on 50 years of evaluating many, many ideas, claims, definitions, arguments, and supposed 'proofs'.

You say I'd have to have lived all of your life to understand why you DO believe. No doubt that is true. At some point you 'had experiences' that led you from doubt to acceptance....but I venture that those experiences required interpretation and contemplation; both of which are subject to ...ummmmmm...subjectivity. It's not like you have pictures and recordings and artifacts to pass around.

Stuff happens to us at times...sometimes very intense stuff. I have NO doubt that you have had such experiences....I just can't base my opinions on your experiences.

I have had intense, clear dreams that made me wonder about what my 'mind' conjured up....but I know many ways to explain them that does NOT require positing para-normal phenomena which I can't repeat.
I am in awe of what the complexity of the brain/mind can do, but I see regularly new 'scientific' explanations of how it can happen, and I seem to see a trend...*smile*....I don't want to detract from the experiences of others, but I can't...so far... see how they affect ME.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:33 PM

It merely seems probable to me, Bill, based on a lifetime of varied experience and association. It did not seem probable when I was a 15-year-old. I was an atheist at 15, and I believed in nothing but conventional science. With the passage of time that changed. For you to understand why, you would have to have lived my life. All of it.

Your belief that there is no soul is just as subjective and arbitrary as any other opinion out there about the matter. It is not based on evidence, it's based on an emotional predisposition on your part. You'd rather believe that what you can't see or measure on any manmade instrument (as far as you know) doesn't exist.

But you don't know it doesn't. You don't, in fact, know anything about it. Your belief is based on an arbitrary prejudice, and you're happy with your belief.

None of us knows everything, but everyone seems to enjoy acting as if they did. That's how emotional insecurity plays itself out in people, and it is the source of much prejudice and strife.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:15 PM

I don't know how I gave you 'that impression'. *grin*...I have said dozens of times that all I do is object to seeming claims of people who say THEY know. I have my suspicions about some of those things..(the feeling that I'd risk a dollar bet on it)

All the stuff about **knowing** is really hard to pin down, as it is hard to get everyone to agree on a clear, hard, fast, unambiguous definition of precisely what it means to "know". My brand of scepticism simply holds a high standard for wild claims.

....but you begin with "I think it's very probable that people have souls that survive death."...wow...I did read that you say you don't KNOW this, and of course, that's one that is pretty hard to even define a test for...but how do you calculate that it is 'probable'? Even 'very' probable? In my view, all one can DO is 'believe' in something like that. There are no proofs, odds, calculations, or even descriptions of HOW it could possibly work. It seems like 99.9% wishful thinking, based on subjective attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:44 PM

The only things I absolutely BELIEVE, Bill are things like...that I'm touching this keyboard I'm typing on and that I exist. Stuff like that.

I think it's very probable that people have souls that survive death...so I may tend to believe in it...but I don't KNOW it. You give me the impression that you KNOW people don't have souls, you KNOW there are no sasquatches, you KNOW there is no God, and you don't know any of those things. You merely suppose so, because it pleases you to see it that way. The stuff you KNOW is very similar to the stuff I and everybody else knows...meaning, that which we can experience directly and with no remaining doubt whatsoever.

Is belief knowledge? I think so. The rest is opinion and supposition, based on partial knowledge or an emotional predisposition of some kind. People tend to believe what they want to believe, but they only KNOW what they KNOW, and it's pretty much the same as what most other people know.

The only reason we frequently disagree about various esoteric stuff is that our emotional suppositions about it are different, and I know that. Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:33 PM

you have it backwards, Little Hawk...we don't know it all- we are just sure YOU don't.. ;>)

and you will persist in that silly 'closed mind/fixed attitude' myth. We just don't buy into the Red Queen Conceptual Melangé (believing in 6 impossible things before breakfast)