Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:44 PM

I do like spoiling the game.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM

Kad Sraigė Be prepared for the fact that you will probably be asked, the moment you walk in the door, if you would like to do a floor spot.

Oooh 'eck! I might have to sack the tank top for a self-retracting turtle neck...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

Kad Sraigë?

What a cunning linguist you are.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM

I try my best...

Blužnis šliaužioti

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tangledwood
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:04 PM

"I have consistently asked of people on this thread what they would do about persistently bad singers - to date I have had no satisfactory reply

Jim Carroll "

Don't know if this would work Jim - record a session/concert, or excerpts therefrom, including the dodgy performer. If copies are given to a few regulars as well as the performer - "thought you might like a souvenir" - the bad one may make their own discovery without getting a sense of being under attack. If they don't you at least have "evidence" there which you can critique with them later.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST, Pete the hat
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:42 PM

Hi Jim
whats
yourpoint re persistantly poor singers
    Bar them?
    surgically remove there vocal cords.
    This thread was Folk club manners and its not good manners to be selective and Judgemental over others less vocal then yourself.
Kind regards Pete

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:16 PM

Is it true that Obama sings a good tune?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:44 PM

I'm back:-)

You don't spoil the fun at all, Bryan. A minor irritaion, nothing more.

1) We don't have a 'policy' to deal with poor performers. I am only saying that is how I handle things myself. Our club is not run by committee, just two organisers. If we did though why are you critisising the 'policy' of another club when a) You believe it doesn't matter, b) It 'rarely happens' and c) It does not affect you at all.

2) About 80% of your post answering my question is about what Jim says or does. Jim is perfectly capable of arguing with me for himself and has done so on numerous occasons. Can you not answer for yourself?

3) You said earlier I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing. That is accusing me of lying. I do not lie and insist that you retract that statement immediately. I am not arguing 'because I am bored', as you say you are. I have never misrepresented anything I have done in real life and I resent the implication that I have.

4) You say - Alternatively, I could just be marking time while I wait for Jim Carroll to admit that I did not misrepresent him Maybe I am waiting for you to admit that I did not misrepresent you, as you suggested earlier on in the thread? When I took you to task on this you did nothing to deny it but just dismissed it with nothing but a churlish 'whatever'.

Now, will you accept that people can have a different viewpoint to you AND tell the truth or will you continue to perpetuate this lible against me?

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:48 PM

OK but if Obama turns up will you give him a floor spot?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:25 PM

I tell you what, if he wanted to do Redemption Song... he'd probably make a right hash of it. But I'd listen.

Night all. Mixed feelings about getting up tomorrow ("some mornings are moving, but hard" (Debord)).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:27 PM

Morning has been canceled, we arise to celebrate but a bit later

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM

"If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing."
If your policy is as stated in the first part of this sentence - by being prepared to put on a singer who cannot hold a tune, cannot remember the words and are incapable of communicating the song to an audience, yes, you are promoting bad singing - explain how you are not.   As far as I'm concerned, no apology needed.
Regarding your 'audition' point - I'll read through the thread when I've woken up fully (late night) and, if I have misread it, will be happy to withdraw my statement and apologise unreservedly.
No, I don't think 'my way' (whatever that is - expecting singers in public to be able to sing maybe?) is the only way. I expect those involved in running the clubs to have the answers. From what I've seen and read and heard - they haven't found them so far, and judging by the long threads on 'what's wrong with our clubs' I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Pete the Hat
How about offering help to improve their singing before they have to face an audience -0 and an audience has to face them - as we always did with our workshops when we were helping run clubs.
Re being 'judgmental' - can't really be bothered repeating what I said earlier on this thread, especially if you can't be bothered reading it before you comment on my opinions.
By the way, I don't sing any more and I made no great claim on my singing when I did - I'm not a bad listener though.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:48 AM

David, you have made some quiet extraordinary attacks on me in the past quite often based on misreading what I have said or possibly misreading what somebody else has said and attributing it to me. Even getting an acknowledgement that you had made a mistake was uphill work.

Excuse me if I don't take your injured pride very seriously.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:27 AM

Ahhhhh. So now we have the root of the problem. Sometime in the past I attributed someone elses comments to you. Quite easy to do seeing as most of your postings consist of quoting other people. I then acknowledged my mistake and apologised if I remember rightly. I seem to have incorrectly assumed that would be the end of the matter. Once more I apologise. I did not realise that I needed to repeat the acknowledgement in this thread as well. Ok, fair enough then. Here it is again -

I acknowledge that I incorrectly attributed someone elses quote to Bryan some time ago. I apologise for that mistake. It has not happened since and will not happen again

Will that do?

Now can we get on? Will you also now acknowledge that I have not misrepresented you in this thread, as I have asked on numerous occasions. Now, onto your accusation that I have lied. What are going to do about that?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:20 AM

It's a matter of pots and kettles Dave. If you can't take it, don't give it out.

Will you also now acknowledge that I have not misrepresented you in this thread,

No, because you did in ways I have already described. Read the thread.

Now, onto your accusation that I have lied.

A lie is a deliberate untruth. I don't believe for a moment that you have been deliberately untruthful. You have, however, been inconsistent in your description of your policy and how you put it into practice. I am not the only person to have said so. I hoped that, by drawing attention to the fact, I could persuade you to clarify the situation.

I have nothing but admiration and respect for the excellent work you do at Swinton. I am just a little surprised that when the folk club scene comes under attack and I rise to its defence you seem to turn on me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:50 AM

What you actualy said, Bryan, was I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing. . If I do one thing and then say I did something else that is a delibeate untruth and something I have not done. If your statement above is your way of retracting that accusation then it is a very poor one.

I do not believe the 'folk club scene', whatver that may mean to you, has come under attack in this thread and do not understand why you chose to defend something that needs no defense anyway. I suppose that is your prerogative, particularly as you may be bored and just enjoy the argument. I find it time now, however, to move on from fighting a loosing battle.

Much as you admire our work at Swinton I respect the work done at the Lewes Arms and am extremely surprised that you continue your career there. If in real life you act in the confrontational and aggresive manner that you use online it is very surprising that someone has not taken you task for it.

I will, eventualy, visit the Lewes Arms Folk Club and look forward to the time when I find out if you have the affrontary to call me a liar to my face. In the interim feel free to continue 'whatever':-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:10 AM

Ouch.

I'm afraid I can't apologise for your interpretation of what I say.

Please do visit the Lewes Arms Folk Club, Dave. Come and meet my friends on the committee. You will be made very welcome. Bring Muriel with you. You will both be offered floor spots.

Best wishes

Bryan

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 09:36 AM

I will have just one more try, Bryan, at a single question, before dropping out of your vendetta altogether.

How can I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing. be interpretted as anything other than you believe that I tell lies about what I do?

Put another way and even simpler, do you believe what I have said about how I run my folk club?

And of course if you are ever in the Swinton area be sure to come and see that I do act exactly as I have described. Don't expect a floor spot on a singers night if we already have 4 spots booked:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM

Dave, the paragraph in your previous post starting "Much as you admire our work at Swinton I respect the work done at the Lewes Arms.." was such a deeply nasty personal attack that I am reluctant to continue any communication with you at all. It goes far beyond even the insults you imagine I have given you let alone anything I have actually said.

However, in the spirit of your last post, I will try.

A while ago you said "It is important as club organisers that we use each others experiences and knowledge to help run our own clubs better!"

I couldn't agree more. I am keen to learn how you do things at Swinton but I am a little confused by some of the things you have said. How can I get the confusion cleared up if any attempt on my part to point out what I see as inconsistencies are taken as accusations of lying? Of course I don't believe you are a liar. What possible reason could you have for lying?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

"How can I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing. be interpretted as anything other than you believe that I tell lies about what I do?"

Actually, David, I didn't interpret it that way at all. I thought Bryan was saying that there's a difference between what you say if you're asked to describe Club Policy and what you say when you get talking about what you do in practice. Which doesn't make you dishonest, just inconsistent - and inconsistency is human (or gnomean).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:17 AM

All getting a bit 'bigendian / littlendian' now, don't you think?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Cretzon
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM

A rambling thread, now deteriorating into egos. A shame, considering the wealth of knowledge on this site.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:19 PM

count me in on that - it's going nowhere and upsetting everyone - time to pull the plug

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:22 PM

Agreed, Silas and Cretzon. I am more than happy to take the discussion offline. First though, I would like to ask Pip, as a visitor to our club, what he views as the inconsistancies in what I have said. I thought I had explained the 'policy' (or lack of it!) of giving newcomers a spot on trust that they are OK and only restricting known bad performers. Not asking you to 'take sides' or anything daft like that, Pip, and no harm will come to our friendship, I assure you. It is just that I would realy like to know what these inconsistencies are so I can put them right before we quit the thread. I would value any other such advice as I thought I had already reconciled Bryan's perceived 'inconsistancies' but I was, apparantly, wrong!

Bryan, really looking forward to our meeting now that I know what you think is a particularly nasty personal attack. I will devise a few more on the journey down. I am sure you will give as good as you get though so I will be sure to bring my ear plugs:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: trevek
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

You know, reading this thread, largely written by people who should know better... I think the manners of the guy munching his nuts are more preferrable to some of you guys crunching each others.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:39 AM

as someone new to the forum, I've followed this thread, initially with interest in the pertinent comments, but subsequently with the kind of painful doggedness one reserves for scratching a mosquito bite - you wished you hadn't but you just had to. I can almost understand why people waste their lives watching reality tv.

The ego-jousting has been incredible; read the thread back, you guys and blush! You have added not one jot to the discussion, but have shown yourselves up embarrassingly.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:42 AM

Bryan,
I have just re-read your posting and find that I was wrong to include you in the list of people who seriously suggested (and continue to suggest) that those of us proposing standards for singing in clubs seriously want auditions - your reference to such was one of a number of (somewhat facetious IMO) alternatives for choosing floor singers - I apologise.
The slanging match that is in full spate is getting us no nearer a conclusion as to what standards, if any, should be applied to choosing singers for the clubs.
Bryan dismissed my original example as a "strange lady of forty years ago" - (think I have got that right) implying (I think) that persistent bad singing isn't a problem - not in my (admittedly now somewhat limited) experience I'm afraid - as I have said in the past, it was one of the two major reasons for my quitting the scene altogether.
The last visit I made to a folk club was to a bleak, cold, unadorned (not even a poster) room with the thud of a juke-box bleeding up from the bar and an audience of around twenty people listening to a nationally known guest singing rather indifferent versions of songs - well indifferently, telling stories (not too badly) and playing tunes (competently-ish). The lowlight of the evening was a lady, obviously a regular stepping out to the front of the room and tunelessly stumbling her way through 'Danny Boy' from a crib-sheet. That was in a club I know to have been in existence for at least twenty years and it wasn't several decades ago - it was last year.
Here in Ireland the general technical ability of singers and musicians performing traditional material is streets ahead of most of the performances I encountered in the UK, - not to say that there aren't problems; there are, but they certainly aren't ones of low or non-existent standards.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:59 AM

Here in Ireland the general technical ability of singers and musicians performing traditional material is streets ahead of most of the performances I encountered in the UK, - not to say that there aren't problems; there are, but they certainly aren't ones of low or non-existent standards.
Hence the comment by one 'lady' Not bad for an englishman

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:33 AM

Jim - with respect to your years and experience - I think it's difficult to generalise about quality of standards in clubs - whether in England or Ireland or anywhere else from one or two personal experiences here and there. There are certainly widely varying standards in clubs around the country - as has been discussed to death in this thread - but I didn't find anything spectacular in Waterford (for one example) when I was there last week. But why should I draw any conclusions about Irish music from one experience in Waterford?

As it happens, my last experience in a folk club over here was last week in a club where 20 floor performers, mainly regulars, did one song each on either side of the main band. The standard and commitment was very high from the floor performers, and the band - playing traditional stuff on smallpipes, whistles, accordion, guitar, hammered dulcimer - was superb.

Was either experience enough to generalise on? - I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:43 AM

Thank you for opening my eyes, jimslass. I have re-read and blushed. I apologise unreservedly to all for flexing my ego in public and I promise not to do it again. Lets get back to a sensible and constructive discussion.

There were two questions asked that were very pertinent to the discussion on standards

Jim Asked -

SHOULD PEOPLE WHO ARE UNABLE TO HOLD A TUNE, MEMORISE A TEXT WITHOUT THE AID OF A CRIB SHEET OR INTERPRET A SONG TO THE EXTENT OF COMMUNICATING IT TO THE LISTENER BE ENCOURAGED TO SING IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE?

and Bryan asked

As a matter of interest, how many times over what period have the folk club organisers here present actually found it necessary to tell anybody they were not good enough to have a floor spot?

I think there has only been one answer to the former and two to the latter to date. I think the answers to both would be of interest and use to most folk club organisers. To keep the thread on topic I also ask how many times and over what period have you had to bring a member of the audience or an act to task for 'bad manners'?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM

First though, I would like to ask Pip, as a visitor to our club, what he views as the inconsistancies in what I have said.

I think to get the point of Bryan's argument you need to think like a lawyer (no offence to Bryan, or to lawyers). Here are the quotes Bryan took exception to:

There should be no difference in quality between the Bellowhead concert and a guest night at or club.

and

We have 28 singers nights a year at which ANYONE can do ANYTHING (public decency permitting:-) ) On the other 24 we are showcasing what, in our opinion, is best in folk music.

OK, lawyer's hat (or wig) on. You're saying that what you do on guest nights, as opposed to singers' nights, is showcase the best in folk music. That implies that the people doing floor spots on a guest night are as good as TBIFM, or Bellowhead at least. But you can't know that they're that good unless you book all your floor spots on guest nights beforehand - which you don't. The night Nigel and I came to Swinton, I might have been awful for all you knew; Nigel might have been awful (if he'd sung (which he didn't (although he wouldn't have been if he had))).

What makes this argument especially pointless is that Bryan's not saying you should book all your floor spots on guest nights beforehand. If you'd said

On the other 24 we are showcasing what, in our opinion, is best in folk music, with floor spots from a few performers who we trust to keep up the standard of the night

then I don't think there would have been any disagreement to start with.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Trevek
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 04:47 AM

I think Jim may have hit on a point I've been considering.

In some situations it is ok for anyone to sing, however in other situations the higher quality of singers/players usually serves its own purpose of alerting lesser talents that they'd be out of their depth and they proceed to censor themselves.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:01 AM

Thanks , Pip. I herewith change my statement to your wording and appoint you lawyer to Swinton Folk Club. With no pay of course:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:31 AM

Spot on, Will Fly. We should not generalise on one experience. This is why discussions such as these are important and should get across views from a whole range of people who attend diferent clubs. That way we can learn from the experience of others.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:46 AM

http://www.dickmiles.com,completely irrelevant,I know,but I like to get this up somewhere once a day.thanks, Iwill go back to sleep.good night

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: HappyHag
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:05 AM

Hi,

I have just joined this forum - what an initiation, I spent two hours reading the posts on this thread before I had to admit defeat and go straight to the end, and now here I am adding to it - oh well.

I have an emergency technique which works with the occasional unpractised, tuneless and above all painfully SLOW rendition.

I maintain an appearance of perfect attentive politeness, and inside I am alternating between 'See, you aren't that bad after all, are you Julia? If they can do it, you certainly can!' and 'Restez zen!' (as they say at FranceTelecom). It is possible to get into an altered state of consciousness by focusing on the qualities of the sound without judgement.

On the other hand I wonder if it is possible to be too constrained by politeness when you get the same person time after time. If I haven't practised I don't want to perform and they should be the same - isn't there some way I can politely impose my view on them? The answer is 'no'.

Julia, Eastbourne

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:24 AM

I drop out for less than a day and calm and reason break out! If was paranoid, I might assume cause and effect but I think the real cause lies in the sensible balanced posts from Jim Carroll and Pip Radish. Thank you both.

I'll take up the discussions in separate posts.

In case anyone is curious about my absence, last night I (and several 1000 other people) were wandering the streets of Lewes which looked like this.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

Is that Julia who used to sing the spider song at the old Gravesend club?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM

Jim Carroll

I have just re-read your posting and find that I was wrong to include you in the list of people who seriously suggested (and continue to suggest) that those of us proposing standards for singing in clubs seriously want auditions - your reference to such was one of a number of (somewhat facetious IMO) alternatives for choosing floor singers - I apologise.

Thank you, Jim. Perhaps my questions were a little facetious. The intention was to demonstrate the impossibility of knowing in advance whether someone was of sufficient standard to be given a floorspot. The only way we can judge their quality is by hearing them perform. All we can possibly know beforehand is that they want to sing or play.

Bryan dismissed my original example as a "strange lady of forty years ago" - (think I have got that right) implying (I think) that persistent bad singing isn't a problem

Yes, that is what I was implying. The reason I can't give an answer to your question is that it is one I have never had to deal with and feel that it is unlikely that I ever will. Yes, we have singers who are, perhaps, somewhat short of concert standard but I don't think I've ever met one who doesn't improve over time.

A while ago I quoted you as saying -

Why do people want to sing in a folk club? - because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are.

I have no idea what you meant when you said that was a bit hit-and-run. It could stand as a mission statement. We like to help people believe they are worth it.

By making our criterion the desire to sing, we are raising standards. Not by selecting the few who are good enough but by helping everybody to get better and, in my experience, they do.

We try and create the environment in which people can grow.

not in my (admittedly now somewhat limited) experience I'm afraid

That is, I think, the nub of the problem. I'm sorry that the club you went to last year was a dissappointment. I generally go to two a week and occasionally others. I hear about what's happening elsewhere. I go to several UK festivals. I don't recognise the world you describe. I'm sure those clubs must exist, but shop around a bit I think you would be pleasntly surprised. In particular, if you came to the Lewes Arms, I think you would find much to your liking.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:07 AM

well, I've been trying to keep pace with this thread and would like to applaud all for bringing it back from the brink of a slanging match to a sensible and good natured discussion once more.

Bryan, your club sounds great. Am sad I live too far away to visit.

I do visit a number of clubs on a not very regular basis, plus one on a very regular basis, and far back in the mists of time in this thread (or possibly a parallel one) I talked about a lady, at the club I regularly go to, who is causing exactly the kind of difficulty that others have also descirbed. She's enthusiastic, friendly, keen, comes along every time.... has a very small repertoire of songs that don't really fit in with what everybody else is there for and doesn't sing them very well, and has shown only a very small amount of awareness and improvement over the past 5 years or so but really not much - if she continues at this rate it'll be another 20 before she's actually enjoyable to listen to. Nobody at the club says anything bad to her, a few suggestions have been made which have I think led to the small improvements we have seen, but we're worried that she is putting other people off from becoming regulars, because they don't want to have to sit and listen to her every time.... and given that the club only just has enough regulars and semi-regulars to keep going, we might not be going in a couple of years, let alone 20. What do we do???

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:18 AM

James H: Nobody at the club says anything bad to her, a few suggestions have been made which have I think led to the small improvements we have seen, but we're worried that she is putting other people off from becoming regulars, because they don't want to have to sit and listen to her every time.... and given that the club only just has enough regulars and semi-regulars to keep going, we might not be going in a couple of years, let alone 20. What do we do???

James - I think you just have to bite the bullet and put it to her, quietly and privately, that she doesn't cut the mustard. It's really difficult, I know, and chances are that she will be very upset and feel put upon. But if the effect of her performance on the club is what you say it is, then it has to be done. It's very like telling a band member that he/she has to go because they're not suitable for the band - or telling a colleague at work that they have bad body odour (I've had to do that one in my time - and bloody awkward it was).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Father Knew Lloyd George
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM

Yes, everyone can imrpove over time... but how much? There's a guy who props up the bill at a club I sometimes go to - week in week out, he's always there and the MC always puts him on first. Must be a couple of years since I first saw him. He's improved, he really has. He's still got a repertoire of about six songs... all of which he reads from a book... and he's still off key a lot of the time. But when I first saw him he was off key almost all the time, and his voice was even harsher than it is now. So he's imrpoved, and if he can improve anyone can.

Maybe the MC should have taken him on one side some time ago... asked him to go away and put some work in before he came back. On the other hand, it's only one bloke... everyone else I've seen at the same club has been competent and a lot of them have been really good. I guess I don't quite share TheSnail's optimsim... maybe nobody's unimprovable, but some people are hard to bring up to a decent stnadard. But I don't really agree with Jim Carroll either... I don't think incompetence or toleration of incompetence is a great menace to folk clubs. New thread idea for anyone who wants it - What Is The Great Meance To Folk Clubs?

I mean the Great Menace obviously...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:46 AM

I am a great menace at folk clubs but I dunno about TO folk clubs:-)

Just a thought - and has occasionaly worked at ours. One of the resident musicians could accompany someone to improve their performance. At least they could try to practice a couple of times and, provided that they could keep in tune and time with the guitar/melodeon/paper and comb or whatever it may improve them.

Mind you, I was asked to accompnay someone once. Any idea how difficult it is to keep up with an out of time and out of tune rendition of a well known song? Nightmare:-(

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:47 AM

Sorry - should have added that I am not good enough to lead and my concertina could not drown out the guitar!

D.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:36 AM

OK - I've watched this thread for several days. Initially I was interested to see whether things I consider to be bad manners (eg: crunching crisps, walking in/out during songs in small venues, humming/singing absently along to ballads etc etc) were universally considered to be so. Then later I was just watching in horror to see whether the 'combatants' advocating different approaches to required standards would ever agree to disagree (my feeling being that there are 2 basic types of club: concert clubs who expect their audience to listen rather than participate and who thus feel it is their duty to provide high standard entertainment, and singers club who exist as a forum for people to have broadly similar musical tastes to share their songs and friendship for the evening). Now the thread seems to be about how you tell someone that their contributions are not suitable in some way, which reminds me of a thread entitled 'how to handle criticism' that was under discussion last year, and which perhaps gives an indication 9from the other side of the fence) of the potential pitfalls of trying to offer helpful criticism.

My personal feelings are that there is not necessarily an exact correlation between ability and likeability. I go to 2 clubs regularly and in each there are singers who are never going to be 'guest' standard, yet these people often contribute a great deal to the evening, because they have an affinity with the music and with the other people there. Both clubs welcome visitors, both provide forums for those who need to use words, or whose handling of a tune can be less than perfect, both book guests and still offer their 'less talented' regulars a song on a guest night, and both are considered to be among the best clubs in the region. These are venues I would choose every time over a concert club because the friendship is more valuable to me than the entertainment. I would far rather listen to a person who can waver out of tune, but understands the story of their song, or a nervous singer who keeps the words handy as a prop for emergencies but feels such an affinity with the song that they want to share it, than to a person who is more technically able, but who has only attended the club because they love to hear themselves, and is uninterested in either anyone else's contribution or the history of their own choice of song.

But these observations are purely personal. I suspect we all have a slightly different perception of what is 'good', what is 'acceptable' and 'what a folk club is for'. Maybe that is the joy of the folk scene. And maybe it is not always about maximising audiences, but rather about making sure that sufficient different outlets exist that we can all find our own place of comfort, whether that is a 100+ concert club or a dozen people in a singaround.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:47 AM

Will,
"and put it to her, quietly and privately, that she doesn't cut the mustard."
Just a quick note - we're still bringing our stuff back into the house from the fallout shelter - put there in case McCaine had won the election (so nobody takes that last comment seriously - feeble as it was - it was a joke).
I have to say that throughout all the workshops we helped to run we NEVER had to give up on anybody - though we did have to work harder on some than on others and we can never claim to have produced virtuoso singers.
One bloke came to us totally unable to hold a tune; really desperate.
He had a wonderful sense of humour; he announced that the first song he ever sang for us was entitled Chevy Chase (one of the longest in the repertoire) and then watched the relief in our faces as he sang Bobby Shaftoe.
At one stage his brother told us "You're wasting your time - you'll never get our Gordon to sing in tune".
We worked with him for months and eventually had a break-through and got him singing in perfect tune.
His brother presented us with a book in gratitude "Don't have to listen to the bugger torturing and murdering songs any more".
He never became a 'great' singer, but it would be nice to think he was still singing.
Will respond in full later later - work calls.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: matt milton
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 12:27 PM

Regarding "crib sheets", it was only recently that a fellow guitarist showed me three discrete sheets of paper sellotaped to the top of his guitar, letting me in on the secret that thousands of guitar players use. When he played, you didn't even notice – whenever he looked down you just assumed he was looking at his hands as he played.

He mentioned it was something John Lennon used to do. When I mentioned this to other guitarist friends they looked at me like I was a bit slow for never having heard of this; it was something they all did.

Now I do it with new songs I don't know well yet. It's like having a prompter at the side of the stage. I'm willing to bet that people who've disparaged use of lyrics, "cheat sheets" and "crutches" on this thread have seen hundreds of guitarists using this trick and never realized.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 02:46 PM

Mmmm, poor old unaccompanied singers can't stick their crib sheets anywhere - except where they're told to by people who don't 'allow' their use!

To change the subject slightly, or rather to get back to the original thread of bad manners in a club, one that didn't get mentioned or taken up earlier, until Guest AW did so, is joining in with other people's songs, or as he/she says "humming/singing absently along to ballads", and, it has to be said, not always humming or singing ABSENTLY! There are some songs and versions that are so well known that they are almost communally held within the scene, and somehow it works with them, but when it's something that is rarely sung or to which the singer brings their own individual style, it is just so off-putting, especially with ballad-style songs where the singer would normally completely lose themselves in the song, and can't do so because there's this other voice in their ears. Horrible, and SO rude! In my opinion, of course.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

I completely disagree Barbara. IMHO it is participative music and if someone really wants others not to participate then it is up to them to make that wholly clear and even then to consider if they are being self aggrandising in that request.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM

You're entitled to disagree, Richard, but would you do it to an artist that's booked as a guest at a club? And personally, I don't believe ALL songs are/were participative, certainly not within the tradition.

Barbara