BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory

Subject: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 02:19 PM

There are Mudcatters amongst us - almost invariably non-Americans - who choose to believe that US government is bought and paid for by amorphous and dark entities who pull America's strings at will to suit their own aims.

I frequently am irritated by this know-it-all, pity-you-poor-schmucks view but it has been impossible to dent their cherished beliefs. My own understanding of US election processes is nicely summed up by Mark Halperin in The Big Question.

Is there really still a Republican establishment? If so, who belongs to it?

Despite the Tea Party, the Twitterverse and the multi-media dilution of traditional Republican authority, the old-school GOP rules the roost. Members of Congress, governors, big-time fund-raisers, well-paid pundits, and activist shoguns in early-voting states such as Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina still have the loudest voices. Winning the Party's nomination without the backing of a majority of these groups is a a nearly insurmountable challenge.

How are the establishmentarians leaning?

Among fat-cat donors, Mitt Romney is doing far better than his rivals, but he's doing far worse with the rest of the establishment, which explains the shakiness of his front-runner status. Some elites are so set against the former Massachusetts governor that they are being drawn to Jon Huntsman without knowing much about him. Others are pining for the conservative Texas governor, Rick Perry, whose stance toward the race has rapidly shifted from no-go to thinking about it to better than even money.

What are the establishment holdouts waiting for?

Some are resigned to supporting Romney as the best available option for a viable general election challenge- especially those who fear the Michelle Bachmann surge. Others want to see if Huntsman is for real, if Tim Pawlenty can muster enough dynamism to be the Romney alternative or if Perry will be as tough and determined a national candidate as he has been a Texas battler. It could be early winter - or even the spring of 2012- before the establishment gets off the fence. They want to beat President Obama but still can't figure out how.

ver batim from:
Time Magazine
Briefing
July 4, 2011 issue

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 02:33 PM

Mark Halperin is the one who was suspended from his job yesterday for calling Obama a "dick".

BTW, this type of political talk is what has brought the country down to the mess it is in. It is all about strategy and personality. There is nothing of substance, as in issues.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 03:01 PM

pdq, you have missed my message.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 03:21 PM

So what's your point, Ebbie? Are you informing us that you're perfectly happy to look no further than the mainstream party line?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 03:33 PM

"There are Mudcatters amongst us - almost invariably non-Americans - who choose to believe that US government is bought and paid for by amorphous and dark entities who pull America's strings at will to suit their own aims.

I frequently am irritated by this know-it-all, pity-you-poor-schmucks view but it has been impossible to dent their cherished beliefs."

If you include me amongst those Mudcatters, Ebbie, I think you are misinterpreting my beliefs.

Number 1: I DON'T think it's happening just in the USA, but virtually everywhere...including my own country, Canada...and I DON'T think it all emanated originally from the USA, but from competitive business and governmental forces that are operating everywhere.

Number 2: I don't think these entities doing it are "dark and mysterious", I think they're plainly obvious, and their motivations are not mysterious either. They seek profit, extension of their ownership of things and resources, enlargement of material rewards and power. This was just as true during the Roman Empire or any other past empire as it is now, and those forces were equally obvious then as they are now.

Number 3: I don't think it's a conspiracy, I think it's an unenlightened way of life. Our lives basically revolve around money, since all worldly power and material control in modern society flows directly from the use of money. With enough money you are empowered to build things, control the actions of the many people you employ, raise and equip armies, fight wars, etc. This again was the basic fact in the Roman Empire. It wasn't run by a conspiracy, it was run by a greedy and aggressive way of life, based upon ruthless competition, empowered by material wealth, and devoted to conquest of land and exploitation of markets and physical resources.

The same is true today, but our world has grown much "smaller". We have correspondingly fewer resources per capita now than was once the case. And our money systems have been grossly inflated due to the accumulation of vast and frankly unpayable amounts of debt. We have mortgaged our societies into bankruptcy, amid shrinking real resources.

Accordingly, we stand at the edge of a precipice and an unprecedented global disaster which our way of life has created. A conspiracy didn't create it and is not driving it. What is driving it is a greedy, overly competitive, unrealistic way of life. It's a social philosophy that cannot sustain itself. It isn't happening just in the USA nor did the USA start it. It started long before the USA even existed. The USA plays a very bid role in it at present, specially in a military sense, and THAT is the only reason so much negative attention falls on the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 03:37 PM

Ebbie... "There are Mudcatters amongst us - almost invariably non-Americans - who choose to believe that US government is bought and paid for by amorphous and dark entities who pull America's strings at will to suit their own aims.

I frequently am irritated by this know-it-all, pity-you-poor-schmucks view but it has been impossible to dent their cherished beliefs."

I think Ebbie's point is rather clear. It's...

"There are Mudcatters amongst us - almost invariably non-Americans - who choose to believe that US government is bought and paid for by amorphous and dark entities who pull America's strings at will to suit their own aims.

I frequently am irritated by this know-it-all, pity-you-poor-schmucks view but it has been impossible to dent their cherished beliefs."

... in case you missed it the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 07:53 PM

Gee, whiz !

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Justa Picker
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 08:03 PM

I'm probably one of them - but that's okay. :-)

For alternative view points rather then just accepting what the White House and the main stream media put out, I'd recommend the following:

This video (and a warning, it's disturbing, and yet very compelling):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

And also:
www.prisonplanet.com
and
www.infowars.com

*** I fully expect that the views expressed via the above links, would not sit well on a predominantly bleeding heart, left wing, liberal forum.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 08:14 PM

They won't sit well on most predominantly Republican forums either, I bet. ;-)

I always figure that the real story is somewhere between the most extreme paranoia displayed on both the Left and the Right...and it's probably more complicated too.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 08:25 PM

The old Repubs are now Dems...

The new Repubs are a mix of ideologues, Christian right and wackos...

That ain't no conspiracy theory... Just an observation...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 08:44 PM

Well, if you can get the general public at each other's throats through driving them into ever wider polarities, it helps keep them off your back. If you can make them think of each other only as the most extreme and ridiculous caricatures of "Right" and "Left", so much the better. They'll be too afraid of each other to even bother talking about anything in a reasonable way to one another...and they'll totally miss the fact that they all want justice, fairness, and truth from their government, and they have much more in common than they realize.

It's like a community of mice tearing each other up while the overstuffed cat sits comfy in his mansion and contemplates his dinner with a Cheshire grin.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:27 PM

Justa, Those videos,the parts I was able to stomach, are BullShit. BullShit produced by people with with no detectable sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:37 PM

It is foolish to identify conservative values with conspiracies, and it is foolish to identify "bleeding heart" mindsets with liberal values. Any spectrum of human attitudes has lame birds at both ends, and any population of more than a couple of hundred people will have its share of dingbats.

THe apparency of conspiracy is not rooted in collusion but in collision, or at least confluence, of people with comparable goals largely seated in self-interest. The difference between the left and right, it seems to me, is the degree to which they take the commonweal into account.

A

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Justa Picker
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:44 PM

So I guess the Bilderberg group are B.S. too then? Did anyone ever see the movie "The International" with Clive Owen? I believe that there are indeed powerful, shadow forces that do orchestrate world events and that profit from catastrophes, human suffering, poverty and misery.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:57 PM

I think that when you use a movie, especially a poorly written thriller as evidence you may be drinking your own cool aid.

Thriller movie scripts skip over the causes of things and ask you to "suspend disbelief" so that they can show you the true "truth" of Hollywood, memorable scenes.

The "conspiracy" in "The International" was just the wrapping for the action scenes.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 10:06 PM

Munitions makers and financiers profit from war. They always have. It is therefore in their interests to lobby politicians to pursue policies which result in wars, arms sales, and conflict. That's not a conspiracy, it's the result of monetary self-interest. It may involve a great variety of limited conspiracies by a great many different people, but it's not a single, over-arching, giant conspiracy...it's a way of making profits. Do empires engage in secret strategic planning to further their aims? Yes. They do it all the time, and they don't make it public knowledge. You can call those actions "conspiracies" if you want to...I call it politics and imperial strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 10:43 PM

It's going to be a long night.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 11:04 PM

Whatsamatter Eb? Not enough venomous snakes in Alaska and you wanted to watch them attack? Well, ya' done 'er up good here Gal!

Wait.....or did you just have a brain fart and were fucked up for a bit? Either way, you're right on the "long night" part.....as well as a few or more days...............***sigh***...................Why'd go and do this Eb? I love ya' and I'd have been happy to bullshit with you.....................I doubt if I'll be back......took my Snake Boots in for new heels..............



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 12:18 AM

Please answer the question, Ebbie. After all, you started this.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 12:48 AM

"mainstream party line".   Any chance for something other than meaningless jargon?

Ebbie's point is clear--and dead on.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:09 AM

I'm sure you know very well what I mean, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:39 AM

I pity the poor schmucks everywhere who troop out hopefully again and again to vote party line, Ebbie, not just the ones in the USA! ;-) In Canada too, eh? All our political parties sold out to various special interests a long time ago, and the promises they make the public at election time are a not-so-funny joke.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 11:12 AM

I've never understood why "bleeding heart", which I take to be a way of saying "compassionate", is used as an insult.

I'd assume that an instinct to feel compassion towards others is a pretty general characteristic for most human beings. That would include most people with whom I'd be at odds on a lot of issues.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 12:08 PM

Would someone please tell me where the mainstream party is? I'll bring chips and salsa. Ice too.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 12:42 PM

michaelr... you seem to be attempting to bait Ebbie and to be attempting to put words in her mouth by asking questions which she needn't answer.

Spaw... what are yer snake boots made of... Kevlar?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM

Amazing how "mainstream party line" seems like such a convenient way to denigrate all views you don't agree with--without being burdened by any responsibility to say exactly what you disagree with or to take a stand yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:21 PM

I've taken plenty of stands in my ten years here, thank you very much. And I'm not baiting anyone -- Ebbie started this thread saying how irritated she is at people who reserve the right to critical thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:42 PM

Kevin:

The implication of "bleeding heart" is not compassion but excessive sympathy with helplessness or victimization, a sort of weepy apathetic agreement about hopelessness.


A

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 01:46 PM

michaelr, I don't know your posting history at all. Ebbie did not single you out. Yet you act as if she did and you take the trouble to mischaracterize what she said. Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 02:06 PM

Look, I'm not really interested in a fight with a bunch of knights in white armor. Ebbie is perfectly capable of explaining if I misunderstood her.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 02:23 PM

The meaning of Mainstream- the mainstream- "a prevailing current or direction of activity or influence*
*Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

(In politics, 'mainstream' means whatever the poster wants it to mean).

Ebbie- and all other posters- may wish to take advantage of parts of a statement added to all of a certain lawyer's electronic transmissions.

"The contents of this electronic mail transmission including any files transmitted with it is confidential, may be an attorney and client communication and if so is therefore PRIVILEGED, in any event intended to be CONFIDENTIAL and for the sole use of the designated recipient. It is also sent on a "Without Prejudice" basis and use, dissemination or copying of the content is strictly probibited unless written authorization, separately received, has been given. If this message has been misdirected, or you are not the intended recipient or if a resend is desire, please contact the sending office as soon as possible."

OK, that is not pertinent, but it came to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:19 PM

" Ebbie started this thread saying how irritated she is at people who reserve the right to critical thinking." michaelr

Whoo ee! Is that what I said?

(I will be back- just spending some time thinking.)

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:20 PM

I'm not sure if they're amorphous and dark, but since the Citizens United decision, they're often anonymous.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:26 PM

"Look, I'm not really interested in a fight with a bunch of knights in white armor. "

I don't care what you are interested in. You posted BullShit, I pointed it out. This is a public forum. Not a private conversation between you and Ebbie.

"Ebbie is perfectly capable of explaining if I misunderstood her. "

No you did not misunderstand her. You BullShitted about what she said.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:35 PM

Back off, Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:38 PM

michaelr, Ebbie did not single you out. Yet you act as if she did and you take the trouble to mischaracterize what she said.

Would you please calmly explain this?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:44 PM

Ebbie, you said whatever subsequent posters want to say you said.

You are guilty - of whatever they say you are guilty of.


The hanging will be at 2.00 PM at the next GOP or Democratic Convention (to be selected by vote of mudcat 'contributors')

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:45 PM

I went back and looked. Ebbie said "I frequently am irritated by [those]...who choose to believe that US government is bought and paid for by amorphous and dark entities who pull America's strings at will to suit their own aims." I willingly admit my ignorance, but I don't see a single thing, expressed or implied, about 'critical thinking' in there.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM

Yet you act as if she did and you take the trouble to mischaracterize what she said.

How can I explain that? It's your interpretation of what I said, which was my interpretation of what she said.

I know Ebbie didn't address her post to me, and I did not act as if she had. Neither did I "take trouble to mischaracterize what she said".

Why so belligerent, Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:55 PM

Amos - I imagine that people who throw round "bleeding heart" so readily tell themselves they are meaning "excessive" compassion. But it seems to go with a definition of "excessive" that equates to "measurable".

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM

I'm not belligerent, I'm just pointing out the crap.

>>>>Neither did I "take trouble to mischaracterize what she said".

>>>From: artbrooks - PM
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 03:45 PM

I went back and looked. Ebbie said "I frequently am irritated by [those]...who choose to believe that US government is bought and paid for by amorphous and dark entities who pull America's strings at will to suit their own aims." I willingly admit my ignorance, but I don't see a single thing, expressed or implied, about 'critical thinking' in there. <<<<

he didn't see it because it was not there.

You seem belligerent to me and to Gnu. Maybe you should "back off." But if you don't, I'm happy to point out the BullShit.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:00 PM

"Neither did I "take trouble to mischaracterize what she said"."

Yes you did by asking her if what she meant was something you dreamed up. Do you not understand that such a question is trolling? Give you head a shake and see if it rattles.

It's just a case of simple common sense and good manners. You do NOT put words in other peoples mouths... fer fuck snake???

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM

I always understood "Bleeding Heart" to mean excessively sympathetic.

So does Wiki

A bleeding heart is an informal label applied to someone regarded as excessively sympathetic, liberal in a political sense, or both. It is typically considered a derogatory remark. Etymologically, the term originated as a Christ reference, originally the bleeding heart under a cross, representing the sufferings of Jesus crucified.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM

Oops... ypto... "fer fuck sake."

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:05 PM

I was only trying to get Ebbie to clarify her original post. pdq, the first to respond, appeard unsure of her meaning, as well.

As far as I can see, the tone of my request was quite polite. This may be a public forum, but I don't believe that absolves us from basic civility. If I did, I would have said, Fuck off, Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:30 PM

Yet you say it anyway. LOL!

"So what's your point, Ebbie? Are you informing us that you're perfectly happy to look no further than the mainstream party line?"

So the above is polite and not belligerent in your eyes?

In that case allow me to rephrase it for you.

michaelr: Excuse me please Ebbie, But I do not understand your point. Would you please clarify it, I am especially curious about what appears to be a contention of yours that only the mainstream party line is a valid one.

Please note that I (jts) in no way condone this question and in fact I do not accept for a second the implied fallacy that there is just one mainstream party line.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:58 PM

Oooh, the T-word comes out. Scary... it'll be torches and pitchforks next.

Do you not understand that such a question is trolling?

No, as a matter of fact I don't. Imagine that.

So the above is polite and not belligerent in your eyes?

Perhaps a bit provocative, in a friendly way, no more. What is it with you guys? Couldn't you have waited for Ebbie to weigh in before collectively jumping down my throat?

Jeez, one wolf whistle at the white woman and I've got the Klan on my ass... Give me a break.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 05:04 PM

...It is typically considered a derogatory remark. Etymologically, the term originated as a Christ reference...

Can't get much more derogatory than that, I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 05:06 PM

All you have have to do is quote the poster directly--Ebbie or anybody else-- without paraphrasing in such a way that just happens to aid your argument.   We've all seen this maneuver before--and sometimes done with more finesse.

If you don't do so, your whining about the "Klan" or anything else does not help you.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 05:24 PM

KLAN? KLAN????!!!!

I was gonna post.... Fuck you you trolling ignorant fuckin piece of shit asshole. If you were within arm's reach of me right now you wouldn't be. There it is in language you MIGHT understand... is THAT clear enough for you? Get some fucking manners.

But, then I thought, why bother? It won't change anything. Simple fact is, Ebbie said what she wanted to say and she said it clearly. The thread is, more or less, over.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 05:37 PM

You guys come across like a bunch of chivalrous jocks out to avenge an imagined insult to someone else. No sense of humor, either.

Tell you what: If Ebbie was insulted by my post(s), I'll gladly apologize. If Joe Offer thinks I'm a troll, I'll accept his judgment. The rest of you self-righteous stiffs can, well, fill it in.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 09:17 PM

My question is if you don't think that you were being belligerent, then why would Ebbie need chivalry?

You know, I didn't say you insulted her. I said that you mischaracterized what she said. I do think she needs a knight or any kind of help. I just like to call BullShit when I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 10:13 PM

Beck is the only media that sticks up for Israel

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 11:41 PM

First off, let me say that I don't necessarily respect the views – as given above – of most of this thread's posters. I did enjoy guhnu, Jack the Sailor and Ron D's posts - not to mention the Catspaw's tender sentiments. No doubt I would also respect the views of Amos if I but understood them. :)

The oft-stated views of several Mudcatters promote the idea as fact that the US – and by extension most capitalistic countries – is governed by a body or bodies of wealthy and totally cynical people somewhere in the world who know what will give them more wealth, more power, more of a legacy perhaps (although I find it difficult to conceive of an anonymous legacy) and in its pursuit have learned the art of manipulation that lets them give a little here, tweak a little there, pull out a pillar over there to force the collapse of something that is past its usefulness, feed some money into another spot in order to boost its power. This, according to the implication, happens generation after generation, without fail, through old age and death of its members, through the rebellion of its youth, the body to be replenished (through what method is not clear) by new generations of new bloodless, predatory, conscienceless people. Forever and ever. Amen.

My own view is quite different. I grant that there are people and agencies and industries that profit from wars and famine and financial depressions. That is a given – when the market is depressed is an excellent time to put your own money and - dare I say it? - ideals to work. It is also a good way to get an economy moving again.

But I do not subscribe to the defeatist belief.that there is this powerful, all-seeing, totally corrupt group that cannot be defeated or even engaged by 'normal' people. I resist the notion partly because it is illogical – it smacks too much of the gods-above-us mentality– but mostly because no body or group of bodies is that smart. Collective heads may be better than one but there are few groups anywhere and at any time that hang together that cohesively for a generation, much less for hundreds of years.

My own view of the political process in the US is very much as presented by Halperin in the opening post: Everybody involved is jockeying for the best candidate they can present that they believe has the best chance of getting into governmental power. It is a messy process and unpredictable and I'm sure there is corruption involved but in my opinion there are no gods out there.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 02:15 AM

Ebbie,

I think you nailed it. Sure some people are crooked. Some of the crooked are wealthy (and some of them are middle-class, and some of them are poor). I've never seen any convincing evidence that the U.S. is run by grand conspiracies of either the Right or of the Left.

I recognize that evil exists, but I see no reason to attribute to evil what is fully explained by stupidity. I know there are people who would like to have the intelligence and power to pull off a conspiracy, but I see no reason to attribute to a grand conspiracy what is fully explained by herd mentality.

And, if there is a grand conspiracy, I would have to say it must be a benign one because, although life here is far from perfect, we have it pretty good.

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 02:55 AM

"...no reason to attribute to evil what is fully explained by stupidity."

Great line.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 03:14 AM

Its like all the conspiracy theories about the masons. I talked to a friend of mine about it saying "My Dad couldn't convince me to do things that were good for me, much more than getting me to toe the line and keep grand conspiratorial secrets. My friend was a mason. So was his dad. He knew just what I was talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 03:42 AM

Tsk, tsk, tsk.
DO try to remain civil in your discussion. Pretend that you like one another, even if you don't.
Thank you, most graciously.

Mr. Manners

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 06:09 PM

Hey. I say there, boys. Call me naive or tell me my reasoning is flawed or tell me my air is hot, but tell me something. I thought y'all had convictions about this subject. Silence leaves it empty.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:20 PM

Some of us have already said we agree with you, Ebbie.   As for the others, you're right that the silence from that quarter is deafening.   But that also tells us a lot, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 10:57 PM

Thanks, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Arkie
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

Wealthy individuals and corporations have attempted and in many cases succeeded in influencing government for ages and that is not anything new. Even the methods are time proven. Whether or not they have gained control of government can be debated but they are well represented in Congress and have successfully influenced a number of American voters to vote against their best interests. This 'force' is well represented by the Koch brothers. And in government by Ryan Paul who has stated that Ayn Rand has influenced his thinking. Rand's economic position is summed up:

Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to become the means by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of other men. Blood, whips and guns--or dollars. Take your choice--there is no other.

Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 11:36 AM

Late to this because I was out of town for 5 days with limited access.

...but *I* have replied for 10-12 YEARS or so to various posters...usually non-Americans.. who attempt to characterize American values, culture, political power structure, behavior....and even beer, with generalized comments which show little understanding of this extremely complex society. Even when there is 'some' fact behind these comments, they are almost never representative of the country as a whole, and any idea that "US government is bought and paid for by amorphous and dark entities" is pure speculation! (BTW- those entities are regularly named, dissected and exposed by several more Liberal commentators both on TV and the internet....we know who is trying to do naughty stuff, and there are ways to combat it.)
OF COURSE there are some problems with 'entities' who try to 'pull strings' using money and political connections! Tell me which countries do NOT have similar groups.
Ebbie's remarks are relevant because you seldom see posts FROM Americans making a special attempt to expose the flaws of the politics & power structure of other countries. I see VERY sharp remarks from Brits about their OWN politics...etc... but I don't know enough about it to comment. One of the things various posters from other countries do NOT understand well is how deeply "states rights" affects what seems like weird behavior in the US. Sadly... it IS possible for Kansas and Alabama to pass laws and act in ways that would not be tolerated in Oregon or Connecticut. We have a Constitution written in 1789 that is often hard to get a grasp on how it affects current situations....and if WE can't agree on it, how can "non-Americans" hope to see the complexities and ramifications resulting from various interpretations?

For some reason... I suppose because the US has a fairly large impact on global doings... we are a frequent target. *shrug* We could argue and discuss for weeks over what Ebbie said... especially when 'some folks' read stuff she did not say. Who? Let's not name names...but as Pete Seeger says about his song "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy"..."If the shoe fits..."

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM

The dark amorphous figures are none other than banking and corporate owners who have trillions in assets to play their global game of command and conquer. 65 trillion dollars is more than enough to inspire very real and dangerous intrigue in global politics.

Conspiracy refers to a coallation of entities who all breathe together toward a common purpose. These laisons come and go with haste depending upon the spoils.

America gets involved with many of the imperialistic plans by various people who may or may not be American. Because of the US military and the CIA, the USA has become a huge army for hire to the highest bidder. The usual bidders are the weapon manufacturers themselves.

The US has been fighting skirmishes directly or by proxy every year since WW II. The decision came down by the neo cons to have some really big long lasting wars to insure profits so we have the IRaq and Afghanistan wars now and as far as they hope, forever more.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:20 PM

I'm not big into cut-n-paste but I'm going to make an exception for this post. It isn't just the US Ebbie, it's all of us who are being sold down the river here. They're making decisions in a most undemocratic way, and they don't give two shades of shite for any of us.

A list of 2011's Bilderberg attendees (not all are on the list apparently):

Belgium
Coene, Luc, Governor, National Bank of Belgium
Davignon, Etienne, Minister of State
Leysen, Thomas, Chairman, Umicore

China
Fu, Ying, Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs
Huang, Yiping, Professor of Economics, China Center for Economic Research, Peking University

Denmark
Eldrup, Anders, CEO, DONG Energy
Federspiel, Ulrik, Vice President, Global Affairs, Haldor Topsøe A/S
Schütze, Peter, Member of the Executive Management, Nordea Bank AB

Germany
Ackermann, Josef, Chairman of the Management Board and the Group Executive Committee, Deutsche Bank
Enders, Thomas, CEO, Airbus SAS
Löscher, Peter, President and CEO, Siemens AG
Nass, Matthias, Chief International Correspondent, Die Zeit
Steinbrück, Peer, Member of the Bundestag; Former Minister of Finance

Finland
Apunen, Matti, Director, Finnish Business and Policy Forum EVA
Johansson, Ole, Chairman, Confederation of the Finnish Industries EK
Ollila, Jorma, Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell
Pentikäinen, Mikael, Publisher and Senior Editor-in-Chief, Helsingin Sanomat

France
Baverez, Nicolas, Partner, Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP
Bazire, Nicolas, Managing Director, Groupe Arnault /LVMH
Castries, Henri de, Chairman and CEO, AXA
Lévy, Maurice, Chairman and CEO, Publicis Groupe S.A.
Montbrial, Thierry de, President, French Institute for International Relations
Roy, Olivier, Professor of Social and Political Theory, European University Institute

Great Britain
Agius, Marcus, Chairman, Barclays PLC
Flint, Douglas J., Group Chairman, HSBC Holdings
Kerr, John, Member, House of Lords; Deputy Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell
Lambert, Richard, Independent Non-Executive Director, Ernst & Young
Mandelson, Peter, Member, House of Lords; Chairman, Global Counsel
Micklethwait, John, Editor-in-Chief, The Economist
Osborne, George, Chancellor of the Exchequer
Stewart, Rory, Member of Parliament
Taylor, J. Martin, Chairman, Syngenta International AG

Greece
David, George A., Chairman, Coca-Cola H.B.C. S.A.
Hardouvelis, Gikas A., Chief Economist and Head of Research, Eurobank EFG
Papaconstantinou, George, Minister of Finance
Tsoukalis, Loukas, President, ELIAMEP Grisons

International Organizations
Almunia, Joaquín, Vice President, European Commission
Daele, Frans van, Chief of Staff to the President of the European Council
Kroes, Neelie, Vice President, European Commission; Commissioner for Digital Agenda
Lamy, Pascal, Director General, World Trade Organization
Rompuy, Herman van, President, European Council
Sheeran, Josette, Executive Director, United Nations World Food Programme
Solana Madariaga, Javier, President, ESADEgeo Center for Global Economy and Geopolitics
Trichet, Jean-Claude, President, European Central Bank
Zoellick, Robert B., President, The World Bank Group

Ireland
Gallagher, Paul, Senior Counsel; Former Attorney General
McDowell, Michael, Senior Counsel, Law Library; Former Deputy Prime Minister
Sutherland, Peter D., Chairman, Goldman Sachs International

Italy
Bernabè, Franco, CEO, Telecom Italia SpA
Elkann, John, Chairman, Fiat S.p.A.
Monti, Mario, President, Univers Commerciale Luigi Bocconi
Scaroni, Paolo, CEO, Eni S.p.A.
Tremonti, Giulio, Minister of Economy and Finance

Canada
Carney, Mark J., Governor, Bank of Canada
Clark, Edmund, President and CEO, TD Bank Financial Group
McKenna, Frank, Deputy Chair, TD Bank Financial Group
Orbinksi, James, Professor of Medicine and Political Science, University of Toronto
Prichard, J. Robert S., Chair, Torys LLP
Reisman, Heather, Chair and CEO, Indigo Books & Music Inc. Center, Brookings Institution

Netherlands
Bolland, Marc J., Chief Executive, Marks and Spencer Group plc
Chavannes, Marc E., Political Columnist, NRC Handelsblad; Professor of Journalism
Halberstadt, Victor, Professor of Economics, Leiden University; Former Honorary Secretary General of Bilderberg Meetings
H.M. the Queen of the Netherlands
Rosenthal, Uri, Minister of Foreign Affairs
Winter, Jaap W., Partner, De Brauw Blackstone Westbroek

Norway
Myklebust, Egil, Former Chairman of the Board of Directors SAS, sk Hydro ASA
H.R.H. Crown Prince Haakon of Norway
Ottersen, Ole Petter, Rector, University of Oslo
Solberg, Erna, Leader of the Conservative Party

Austria
Bronner, Oscar, CEO and Publisher, Standard Medien AG
Faymann, Werner, Federal Chancellor
Rothensteiner, Walter, Chairman of the Board, Raiffeisen Zentralbank Österreich AG
Scholten, Rudolf, Member of the Board of Executive Directors, Oesterreichische Kontrollbank AG

Portugal
Balsemão, Francisco Pinto, Chairman and CEO, IMPRESA, S.G.P.S.; Former Prime Minister
Ferreira Alves, Clara, CEO, Claref LDA; writer
Nogueira Leite, António, Member of the Board, José de Mello Investimentos, SGPS, SA

Sweden
Mordashov, Alexey A., CEO, Severstal
Schweden
Bildt, Carl, Minister of Foreign Affairs
Björling, Ewa, Minister for Trade
Wallenberg, Jacob, Chairman, Investor AB

Switzerland
Brabeck-Letmathe, Peter, Chairman, Nestlé S.A.
Groth, Hans, Senior Director, Healthcare Policy & Market Access, Oncology Business Unit, Pfizer Europe
Janom Steiner, Barbara, Head of the Department of Justice, Security and Health, Canton
Kudelski, André, Chairman and CEO, Kudelski Group SA
Leuthard, Doris, Federal Councillor
Schmid, Martin, President, Government of the Canton Grisons
Schweiger, Rolf, Ständerat
Soiron, Rolf, Chairman of the Board, Holcim Ltd., Lonza Ltd.
Vasella, Daniel L., Chairman, Novartis AG
Witmer, Jürg, Chairman, Givaudan SA and Clariant AG

Spain
Cebrián, Juan Luis, CEO, PRISA
Cospedal, María Dolores de, Secretary General, Partido Popular
León Gross, Bernardino, Secretary General of the Spanish Presidency
Nin Génova, Juan María, President and CEO, La Caixa
H.M. Queen Sofia of Spain

Turkey
Ciliv, Süreyya, CEO, Turkcell Iletisim Hizmetleri A.S.
Gülek Domac, Tayyibe, Former Minister of State
Koç, Mustafa V., Chairman, Koç Holding A.S.
Pekin, Sefika, Founding Partner, Pekin & Bayar Law Firm

USA
Alexander, Keith B., Commander, USCYBERCOM; Director, National Security Agency
Altman, Roger C., Chairman, Evercore Partners Inc.
Bezos, Jeff, Founder and CEO, Amazon.com
Collins, Timothy C., CEO, Ripplewood Holdings, LLC
Feldstein, Martin S., George F. Baker Professor of Economics, Harvard University
Hoffman, Reid, Co-founder and Executive Chairman, LinkedIn
Hughes, Chris R., Co-founder, Facebook
Jacobs, Kenneth M., Chairman & CEO, Lazard
Johnson, James A., Vice Chairman, Perseus, LLC
Jordan, Jr., Vernon E., Senior Managing Director, Lazard Frères & Co. LLC
Keane, John M., Senior Partner, SCP Partners; General, US Army, Retired
Kissinger, Henry A., Chairman, Kissinger Associates, Inc.
Kleinfeld, Klaus, Chairman and CEO, Alcoa
Kravis, Henry R., Co-Chairman and co-CEO, Kohlberg Kravis, Roberts & Co.
Kravis, Marie-Josée, Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, Inc.
Li, Cheng, Senior Fellow and Director of Research, John L. Thornton China Center, Brookings Institution
Mundie, Craig J., Chief Research and Strategy Officer, Microsoft Corporation
Orszag, Peter R., Vice Chairman, Citigroup Global Markets, Inc.
Perle, Richard N., Resident Fellow, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
Rockefeller, David, Former Chairman, Chase Manhattan Bank
Rose, Charlie, Executive Editor and Anchor, Charlie Rose
Rubin, Robert E., Co-Chairman, Council on Foreign Relations; Former Secretary of the Treasury
Schmidt, Eric, Executive Chairman, Google Inc.
Steinberg, James B., Deputy Secretary of State
Thiel, Peter A., President, Clarium Capital Management, LLC
Varney, Christine A., Assistant Attorney General for Antitrust
Vaupel, James W., Founding Director, Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research
Warsh, Kevin, Former Governor, Federal Reserve Board
Wolfensohn, James D., Chairman, Wolfensohn & Company, LLC

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:25 PM

> ...entities who all breathe together...

I've seen them in Star Wars.

Maybe I've mentionmed this quote on another thread, maybe not. From the 1969 political thriller "Z" (made in France!):

"Always blame the USA! Even if you're wrong."

You can determine your sanity by whether or not you consider the words to be ironic.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:50 PM

Sugarfoot Jack, Are you saying that the Bilderberg conference is a cabal of some sort? Wiki says otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:55 PM

Ah Wiki - it must be right!

I think common sense decrees they're all in there sorting things out without those troublesome voters getting in the way. The taxpayer paid for Osbourne to go this year but I can't find a mention of the trip in Hansard.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Justa Picker
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:51 PM

Some of you are beginning to "get it". :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:06 PM

@ Sugarfoot Jack - and they all agree, right? On aims and goals, methods and boundaries. They all like and trust each other, too.

Nope. Far more likely, to my mind, is just like although collusion of competitors in your local town is forbidden, a smart businessman/woman knows what his or her competition is offering.

I have no trouble believing - and no problem with - that corporations and individuals from all over the world gather together and try to discern trends - political, financial, social, regulatory - both short term and long term. Makes sense to me. It also makes sense to me that there is also collusion with attendant corruption. We are human beings, after all. As are they.

Having that equate to these same corporations and individuals being not only evil but all-knowing and smart is about as logical as belileving that Zeus and Athena and Hera are up there manipulating the strings and laughing their heads off.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:24 PM

Wouldn't it have seemed absolutely certain that the perfectly friendly imperial cousins George V, Nicholas II, and Wilhelm II would have worked together to advance their mutual interests in 1914?

Didn't happen. They wound up destroying and/or nearly bankrupting their own nations ans several others. I doubt the Bilderbergers are much better at planning anything.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 04:24 AM

I'm a bit late...comp has been bust, but I'm certain the OP was written by a troll......must ask gnu,he studies such things.
Had I written such a post and referred to "liberals", I would definitely have been taken to task for being a member of the hated species

Little Hawk has explained things perfectly and micheal was unfairly attacked for his choice of words.

Michael can be quite abrasive and we often disagree, but this time he has been made a scapegoat to cover the arse of one of the inner sanctum

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 04:35 AM

and BTW, if it wasn't for the mavericks on this forum,the rest of you would have to take up knitting to while away the hours.:0)

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:29 AM

Ake--

Give Ebbie a break.   She wrote the opening post--and even told you and the other conspiracy fans that it's mostly a direct quote by Mark Halperin.

Is it a major element of the conspiracy theory fan catechism to never read anything before commenting? You guys really have to improve your reading skills.


It does not help your case.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:26 AM

Ebbie - I doubt they like or trust each other (that doesn't seem to be in the nature of these people). As for common goals and boundaries, it's worth looking at the list. They're all politicians, bankers, the odd royal and people who own very large and influential businesses. I don't think they're evil necessarily (even if Henry Kissinger is there), but I do think they're sorting things out on to their own advantage whether that be business or political or whatever.

Thing is, this all goes on without the electorate having a say, and that's bad. We have no idea what George Osbourne said, promised or discussed but UK taxpayers paid for him to go and cowtow to big business. Looking at the list of attendees it seems they are all powerful, rich and not exactly known for their moral integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 12:17 PM

Sorry, I've been away for the weekend - some matter of a little local holiday hereabouts.

The list of Bilderberg attendees is enlightening. Surely these people are not getting together to play golf. I suspect that they are indeed working toward "a world government that knows no borders and is not accountable to anyone but its own self" - which is what the multinational corporations that these people run have been pursuing for decades; just substitute "economy" for "government".

From the Wikipedia entry on the Bilderberg group: (quote) Author James McConnachie comments that conspiracy theorists have a point, but that they fail to communicate it effectively. [James McConnachie, Robin Tudge, The Rough Guide to Conspiracy Theories (London: Rough Guides Ltd, 2005)] He argues that the Bilderberg group acts in a manner consistent with a global conspiracy, but does so without the same "degree of nefariousness", a difference not appreciated by conspiracy theorists, who "tend to see this cabal as outright evil." (end quote) To my mind, that differentiation is sophistry. Evil is a matter of degrees, and of perception.

Conspiracy theories exist at all points of the political spectrum. Consider 9-11: the U.S. government's official explanation of what happened is as much a conspiracy theory as the ones put forward by the so-called Truthers. People crave explanations for horrendous events, but for some the idea that the government may be up to criminal machinations is just too scary to contemplate.

Dismissing someone like Webster Tarpley (or hundreds of architects, engineers and firefighters) as a "kook" is closing one's eyes to an important contribution to critical thought. We accept what I called "the mainstream party line" at our peril, and doing so without questioning indeed amounts to an abdication of critical thinking.

Some may ask me "do you really believe that stuff?" and my answer is "no, I don't believe much of anything, but I wonder." Reasonable people will never all agree on these issues, but that is beside the point. The important part is to retain an open mind and to keep questioning. As Caroline Casey says: "We don't believe, we entertain possibilities".

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:28 AM

Refresh, in case anyone missed my deafening silence.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 12:16 AM

Sorry Michael, understanding takes some powers of logic. If you believe in everything you believe in nothing--and will understand nothing.

A conspiracy theorist builds a house of cards, then challenges everybody else to disprove every card. This makes no sense.   Pardon us if rational people decline to play that game, which is nothing but a black hole of time. The rest of us have a life to live.

Talk of a spectrum of conspiracy theories, including the government's own position, says nothing except that you insist on maintaining maximum paranoia.

Conspiracies obviously do exist--most obvious recent one was the Bush administration's orchestrated propaganda campaign to convince the US public to back the Iraq war it planned.

But some Mudcat posters remind me of what was said of some economists:   they predicted 11 of the last 3 recessions.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 12:27 AM

"sorting things out to their own advantage".    Fine, but you leave out the little item of competition--on which capitalism is based.    You have provided precisely zero evidence of collusion between all businesses--or even all large businesses--in any given field.

As i just said above, you also seem to be just determined to maintain maximum paranoia--while wrapping yourself in the oh-so-reasonable attitude of "open-mindedness"--which in your case is remarkably close to open-mindedness to every crackpot theory you run across.

A rational person needs some powers of discrimination in thought.   You are plumping for no winnowing of ideas whatsoever.

You're welcome to wallow in your hazy dark fears.   Pardon us if we don't join you.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:36 AM

Open-mindedness is an equal-opportunity virtue, Ron. If it were choosy, it wouldn't be open. Your powers of logic should tell you that.

You admit that Conspiracies obviously do exist--most obvious recent one was the Bush administration's orchestrated propaganda campaign to convince the US public to back the Iraq war it planned. How do you know that you know all there is to know about the extent of it? You've made a choice to draw a line, which is your prerogative, but it's no more inherently valid that Sugarfoot's, or Justa's, or mine.

There's a hint of desperation in these attempts to stifle and discredit ideas which you're uncomfortable with.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:09 PM

The Iraq War was hardly the most recent conspiracy to emerge - here's a thread about a big one currently unravelling in the UK, involving media, police and politicians: Hacking a murdered girl's phone

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:14 PM

There was a posted on the X-Files, that said "I want to believe." It sums up most conspiracy theories.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 11:18 AM

Jack, it also sums up most forms of strong belief about anything whatsoever, including the standard opposition that arises TO any existing conspiracy theory. People want to believe whatever they are already inclined to believe, no matter what their opinions are about anything.

This is because their own sense of strong ego identity is all wrapped up in what they already believe. To give up any little bit of it feels like losing part of oneself, so they fight like tigers to oppose anything that doesn't match what they already want to believe.

And THAT is what fuels a million vain and idle keystrokes a day on Mudcat! ;-)

My basic rule is: I want to enjoy life. Period. I don't really give a damn anymore if individuals on this forum happen not to believe something I believe, because it doesn't matter anyway. Let them be happy believing whatever they wish to. Why should it bother me? As long as I can enjoy myself discussing some interesting subject with some other people who are willing to remain friendly and reasonable, then I will. If, however, they want to fight about it and get all snide and huffy and nasty...well...I might engage in it as long as it still amuses me to...but if it passes the point of being fun and starts getting to the point where it's causing me and them a whole bunch of pointless stress and hostility........I drop it.

I go and do something else that's more enjoyable. I ignore the thread where the fighting, back-biting, and personal insults are raging. I play my guitar. I read a good book. I enjoy the lovely weather outside.

I suggest to others to do the same, but that's up to them. Some people actually want to fight with other people all day on an obscure internet forum. That's what turns their crank. It strengthens their personal sense of identity. ;-) If that's what they want, fine with me. Go to it. Knock yourselves out.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 11:30 AM

People want to believe there is some evil cabal running the elections because they have a conscience about politics but are somehow afraid to try to do something themselves. Or in the case of self-described liberals and Obama, they think that if he doesn't give them EVERYTHING they want, today. Then he is no better than the asshole who just left. But really that is just another excuse for political laziness.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 06:03 PM

"try to do domething themselves" -- such as?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 06:51 PM

domething? humor? Teapot Dome?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 07:47 PM

Bit deaf today, Jack? I said, "TRY TO DO SOMETHING THEMSELVES" -- SUCH AS?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 07:54 PM

ake... "I'm a bit late...comp has been bust, but I'm certain the OP was written by a troll......must ask gnu,he studies such things."

Ya know.... I do. And that trolling post brought me back to say the following even tho I suppose I shouldn't feed a troll.

That from one of the most overt and self-admitted (in writing and documented - yes, EVERYTHING you post here or in Mudchat or in PMs is documented and readable by Max and mods) trolls of all.

You call Ebbie a troll? You are stunned as me arse. Yer a piece a work you are. Go wind yersel up you *. Hard to believe yer a Scot. Then again, maybe yer daddy fucked a baaaaad sheep ya wooly twit.

Yes, Joe. I know. But these igits just keep spewing their vile hatred for no other reason than to wind people up for their pathetic jollies... sometimes ya gotta feed the trolls with a bit of knuckles and THEN ignore their inane bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 08:03 PM

"You are stunned as me arse."

Gnu,

At first I thought you might have been a bit harsh.

Then I reread this.

From: michaelr - PM
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 07:47 PM

Bit deaf today, Jack? I said, "TRY TO DO SOMETHING THEMSELVES" -- SUCH AS?
From: michaelr - PM
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 06:03 PM

"try to do domething themselves" -- such as?

So very wrong on so many levels!

Gnu,

I think you may be denigrating your own arse.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 08:04 PM

"'try to do [s]omething themselves' -- such as?"

Well, I can think of two examples right off the bat.

When the Tea Party appeared on the national scene, exhibiting their free-floating anger and general lack of knowledge of American history and were hysterical enough to try to intimidate people by waving firearms around at political rallies, a number of calmer, brighter, and better educated citizens decided that a counterforce of thoughtful, well educated, and well informed people needed to become an important factor in American politics. Although not all that many people have heard of them yet, there are calm discussion groups going on all over the country—in people's living rooms. It's called "The Coffee Party." This coming weekend, I know of two such groups meeting within walking distance of where I live.

A few years back, on Vashon Island near Seattle, a group formed that calls itself "The Backbone Campaign." Their main thrust is to lean heavily on politicians, particularly Democrats, to stick to the progressive principles they sometimes claim to espouse and "grow a backbone, for Pete's sake!!"

Whenever a politician displays a bit of genuine backbone, the Backbone Campaign awards a trophy (it looks like a model of a spinal column) to that individual. I was at the first Backbone Award presentation on Sunday, January 11, 2004, at Seattle's Central Lutheran Church, to Washington State's 7th District Congressional Representative Jim McDermott.

Firtst Backbone Award.

FDR once met with a group of activists who sought his support for bold legislation. He listened to their arguments for some time and then said, "You've convinced me. Now go out and make me do it."

Even in the middle of the Depression, Roosevelt understood that the more effectively people created a sense of urgency and crisis, the easier it would be for him to push for progressive legislation.

So don't just sit there and whine. DO something. Other people are.

Don Firth

P. S. I had great hopes for Barack Obama early on. But sad to say, he has yet to qualify for a Backbone Award.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 08:18 PM

I keep hearing "do something". I have yet to hear concrete suggestions as to what.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 10:52 PM

Read my post just above, michaelr. Find a political action group such as the two I talk about and participate it. Sign petitions. START petitions. Write letters (to your representatives, to the editor of your local paper(s). Pick a candidate or a campaign and work for them / it. They can always find plenty for you to do.

Use you imagination.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:00 AM

A discussion group in someone's living room -- well, my friends and I do that frequently. It temporarily makes us feel better, but it doesn't change much.

Some silly trophy -- really? I was hoping someone would explain how progressives can have some actual effect against the machine.

I sign the petitions, I call my congresswoman, I show up at the rallys. I do all that happy horseshit. It hasn't changed a damn thing since I started, and my guess is it probably never will.

I salut the civilian uprisings in North Africa and the Mideast. But they wouldn't work here.

Any other ideas? I'd really like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:13 AM

michaelr, the Coffee Party does meet in living rooms and other places, but that's where the DECIDE what needs to be done, then they go out and ACT. I will try to get you some examples of the sort of thing they do, but then you could always google "The Coffee Party" yourself. Same with "The Backbone Campaign." They do all kinds of different things.

Like I say, use your imagination.

I'll drop back tomorrow with a few ideas for you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 05:50 AM

Hi gnu!....good to see you in such fine form.....I deservedly feel lower than a snakes belly....as its such a nice day, I think I'll just take Hawks advice......BUT.....doesn't this sound just a teeny weeny bit like TROLLING to you.

"There are Mudcatters amongst us - almost invariably non-Americans - who choose to believe that US government is bought and paid for by amorphous and dark entities who pull America's strings at will to suit their own aims.

I frequently am irritated by this know-it-all, pity-you-poor-schmucks view but it has been impossible to dent their cherished beliefs."

When Ebbie been proved wrong in some point or other, I have noticed that she is inclined to lurk in a dark corner for a week or two, sharpening her "stiletto", before releasing a juicy piece of bait like the opening post, to entice the unfortunate target onto her chopping block...:0)

I can think of several "targets" who have been lucky to avoid the chopper this time..... alas not so poor Michael. "Iknew him well"

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 06:19 AM

The know-it-all Yank bashers occasionally get on our nerves, but we generally try to ignore it to the best of our ability.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 06:28 AM

For a start, I dont think I know anyone who thinks "America's strings are pulled by amophous and dark entities", but i know many Yanks and Brits, who are sick of the fact that our respective governments are in hock to corporations and financial institutions.
Corporate Global Capitalism!
You want proof that they rule us?......look no furthur than the trillions of £$ that were stolen from us to keep these institutions solvent.....in the short term....they will keep coming back to the well as our economy declines.
They have stolen our money, but they want everything, our pension rights, our care, medical and social services....and they will drink till the well is empty.

You want to know what to do?
Stop hoping against hope that things will "improve", Stop thinking like Mr Micawber that "something will turn up", Stop worrying about the little box of goodies that you have managed to conceal from them.
Stop believing that any of the politicians can solve this problem....they cant, even if they wanted to.
Stop believing that the cure will be PAINLESS.

Seeeemples!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 07:25 AM

I'm not really following Ebbie's opening post but is she suggesting that the existence of competition for places at the top is proof that the interests of the same dark and powerful forces can not be served?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:01 AM

As Gnu has said, Its all there and its all clear. Ebbie's first post is clear and complete. She is saying that the US political system is complex and not governed by some secret cabal of James Bond villains who decide every election.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:03 AM

What can you do? Project a positive attitude and don't give up. The youth is on your side if you set a good example.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:11 AM

So are you saying that because a different candidate can get elected each time round perhaps even from different parties that means that these people can not serve the interests of the same dark and powerful forces?

A bit like suggesting that because over here, Blair was Labour and Cameron was Conservative that they couldn't possibly both be pally with Rupert Murdoch?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:32 AM

No Jon, She is saying that all the dark forces, don't all get together to have "Evil Lord" conventions.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:37 AM

So are you saying that because a different candidate can get elected each time round perhaps even from different parties that means that these people can not serve the interests of the same dark and powerful forces?

I think that I'd rather assume that candidates, both before and after their elections, give much more than lip service to the interests and beliefs of the people who elect them, and that they do not "serve the interests of dark and powerful forces" at all. For that matter, I've never seen any reason to believe that "dark and powerful forces" even exist outside of the pages of Batman comics and the fevered imaginations of a few people who have nothing worthwhile to do with their time.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

I think that I'd rather assume that candidates, both before and after their elections, give much more than lip service to the interests and beliefs of the people who elect them, and that they do not "serve the interests of dark and powerful forces" at all

I find that rather naive.

For that matter, I've never seen any reason to believe that "dark and powerful forces" even exist outside of the pages of Batman comics and the fevered imaginations of a few people who have nothing worthwhile to do with their time.

I can assure you that banks and big businesses do exist.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:50 AM

Sure they do, Jon, but not in the shadowy conspiratorial sense promoted by the wild-eyed. Young turks did conspire, for example, to gouge people on electrical rates in California, and I am sure a lot of gleeful handrubbing occurred over subprime mortgage packaging. There's a lot of wickedness in the temples of Mammon, by nature. But it is disorganized wickedness.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:06 AM

As Jon says, it is being overly naive to talk in terms of "evil lord conventions", but surely you people understand that global capital has an agenda?
We are the pawns who finance that agenda.
Very little in the financial world happens by accident.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:14 AM

Amos, they dont require to be conspiritorial.....we are told quite openly that we are to be robbed and punished, for the crimes of the financial sector.
To reset a system which has failed and will continue to fail

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:18 AM

If we fail to follow orders the retribution will be very organised indeeed.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:22 AM

Sure "global capital" has an agenda - to make piles of lucre for the individuals involved. Do I think that bankers, politicians and other unnamed co-conspirators get together in dark corners or palatial estates to divide up countries yet to be conquered by each others' armies or who gets what portion of which Third World nation's commodities? About as much as I believe in the Easter Bunny. It is much too easy - perhaps naive is a good word for it - to simply say that THEY are responsible for all that is evil in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:25 AM

ake, you misunderstand me- when I am proved wrong, I don't lurk in dark corners for a couple of weeks sharpening my stiletto. That truly is not my aim. I tend to lie low when some people's ire has been raised in order to let both their and my ardor cool. And that's not just when I've been "proved wrong".

But now- I thank the clear-headed ones. Art, JtS, Amos and lovely gnu said what I mean -and believe- far better than I did.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:41 AM

The interests of "mammon" are the interests of the people. All the people who have savings, or jobs or use goods and services, including government services. Its not a matter of fighting the forces of commerce. It is a matter of harnessing them.

Our current system is far from perfect, but it is the best the world has seen so far. Don't abdicate from it because political decisions are made which you do not like. If you can't support a person, support a position, or a goal or one little bylaw in your home town.

If you can't do that, at least don't come around moping with BullShit about the pointlessness of it all because "the fix is in."

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:43 AM

Anybody remember our adventures in Iraq do you really think that was sheer altruism?....Was Haliburton an unhappy accident?

Libya?....nothing to do with self interest?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:45 AM

Cheney and Bush = Goldfinger & Dr No?

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:47 AM

Jack...it was only the best when we had people and resources to exploit.....that is how capitalism lives and breathes.

We try to regulate it....it dies. We let it live ....we die.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM

Things are rarely all black or all white, ake. Nobody is claiming that people in power are good little toadies but I contend that they are not all evil big monsters either. For one thing, it takes a LOT of energy to be that evil. :)

I can easily believe that there are people- and sometimes people who find other people like themselves - who try to manipulate events to their own advantage; attempting to gain and exert control over scary things is a basic trait of not just humans but probably all animal life.

But sustained success at it would seem somewhat rare.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 11:55 AM

Our current system is far from perfect, but it is the best the world has seen so far.

Depends where in the world you sit...

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 12:17 PM

On average, everyone is better off.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 04:09 PM

The Bilderberg Group.
The Illuminati.
The Freemasons.
The Rockfellers.
The Rothschilds.
The Catholic Church.
The Elders of the Protocols of Zion.
The Mormons.
The International Bankers.
Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. ad nauseum!

I've heard this stuff all my life. And that list doesn't even scratch the surface of the multiplicity of dark, secret cabals that people have told me are REALLY running things and controlling our lives and the lives of everyone else on the planet.

Flouride in the drinking water was a plot by—take your pick of any group on the list above, or cobble up your own—to soften our brains, turn us into zombies, and make us easy to control. Now that drinking water in many cities has been fluoridated for decades and the only result is that people don't have to go to the dentist as often, NOW we have (steady, now!) chemtrails "crop-dusting" the populace to "soften our brains, turn us into zombies, and make us easy to control."

HEY! Here's a bulletin for you folks who are convinced that we're all helpless dupes, but that most of the world is too zombie-ized and brainwashed to realize it. Here's what's REALLY going on. Did you know that

The fourth Baron de Rothschild, Lord Jacob Rothschild of Great Britain, has been called the 21st Century's "King of Israel." He and other Rothschilds preside over the planet's greatest banking cartel, and Wall Street firms Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citibank, and others bow to Rothschild dictates. Politicians in world capitals, Washington, D.C., London, Paris, and Tokyo grovel before their awesome power.

Rothschild chose a young, half blood "Prince" of Jerusalem, a Communist adept named Barack Obama who won Rothschilds' favor—and was rewarded for his slavish devotion to their sinister Agenda by being raised to global prominence and elevated to the highest seat of superpower government—the White House.

You see, Obama was not born in Hawaii, or Kenya, or Indonesia. He was born in Israel! He's a Jew! And he's a member of the Synagogue of Satan!

Betcha didn't know that, didja!!???

Okay, everybody! Out of the pool!

There is a psychological need in some people to feel that "I'm In on the Real Truth and everybody else is a helpless dupe who won't listen to me and believe what I'm trying to tell them, because they are too brainwashed to grasp the REAL truth, which I know! Because I'm too smart to have been brainwashed!"

But with many, many other people, like, unfortunately some folks here on Mudcat, they vaguely believe in the idea that some group is indeed in total control, and "...gripe about it all you want, there is nothing anyone can do about it!"

So why bother?

So they tend to be all talk and no do. They love to piss and moan about what's happening in the world, but they can't be bothered to haul their lazy butts off the couch—or out from behind the computer, and take part in the various efforts of a lot of people—such as the Coffee Party or the Backbone Campaign, or a number of other progressive groups who have had it up to their gills at least as much as the Tea Party people have, and are sufficiently motivate to educate themselves and plan effectively to bring about the kind of society they want.

michaelr, the Coffee Party does a helluva lot more than merely hold discussion groups in living rooms. That's where it starts, but THEN, they get out there and ACT. The thrust of the group is education and civil discourse. A politician may be intimidated by someone shouting and waving a gun, but he or she is going to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about and who presents their case calmly and reasonably.

And the Backbone Campaign doesn't just give out "silly trophies." Among other things, they, like the Coffee Party, educate themselves in the details of the issues, and talk to politicians. Along with this, they engage in demonstrations, which are not shouting contests. They get their points across while, at the same time, being amusing and entertaining. Among other things, they stopped a big corporation from turning Maury Island in Puget sound, a breeding area for salmon, into an industrial zone and completely despoiling the island.

These are only two of a number of activist organizations that I'm acquainted with.

When someone sits back and moans about the Forces of Evil being too powerful and nothing they can do will have any effect, as far as I'm concerned that translates into a combination of gutlessness and "I can't be bothered!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 04:33 PM

The lovely gnu? Awwww shucks. I don't deserve that accolade. I just call a, ahem, er, ah, well, a troll a troll when I see and know one... or two as the case may be.

Don... it seems as tho you might be onto something about the rich and powerful subjugating the poor. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jul 11 - 10:34 PM

The fourth Baron de Rothschild, Lord Jacob Rothschild of Great Britain, has been called the 21st Century's "King of Israel." He and other Rothschilds preside over the planet's greatest banking cartel, and Wall Street firms Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citibank, and others bow to Rothschild dictates. Politicians in world capitals, Washington, D.C., London, Paris, and Tokyo grovel before their awesome power.

Rothschild chose a young, half blood "Prince" of Jerusalem, a Communist adept named Barack Obama who won Rothschilds' favor—and was rewarded for his slavish devotion to their sinister Agenda by being raised to global prominence and elevated to the highest seat of superpower government—the White House.


Thank you, Don Firth! I shoulda knowed. I trust your intuition.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 12:37 AM

Using the most extreme and obviously ridiculous examples to discredit your opponent is called... what?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 02:00 AM

I believe it t is called 'To the Point'.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 02:51 AM

michaelr, I didn't know that you were my "opponent." Is that what you regard yourself?

I didn't make those up! They can all be found on the internet and they all have their passionate adherents. The one about Barack Obama being the "half-blood prince of Jerusalem and a member of the congregation of the "Synagogue of Satan" is ALSO there.

I did NOT make ANY of those up!

("Half-blood prince." Isn't that from the title of one of the Harry Potter books?)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 03:29 AM

But nobody on mudcat....at least none of those Ebbie is alluding to, uses examples like these.
Most of us are referring to our economic system and how it is kept in power by dividing people into "camps"
All the political parties work for Capitalism, that is the problem.

Gnu....you are not paying attention, Ebbie's post was designed to start a battle and your insight is not quite as strong as you believe it to be.
You have been told several times by admin that they do not think I am a "troll".

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 03:54 AM

In the UK for example, the Labour govt....like the Conservative govt before it, was complicit in the deregulation of the banking system to give the illusion of REAL growth in the economy.

When the illusion became apparent by the collapse of major US banks, we have being forced to pay for their crimes.

But no one is talking about what happens when every penny has bee squeezed out of us......what do we put in place of the present failed system?......Oh I forgot, "something will turn up"

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 02:25 PM

I didn't say you made them up, Don. But you chose to quote them here, as if to say: See how crazy the conspiracy theorists are?

Well, some are. Others, not so much, but a quote like that serves to tar them all with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 02:48 PM

"Ebbie's post was designed to start a battle" ake

No, you still don't get it. It may be a foolishly naive hope but I truly would like a debate - not a battle - to clarify everyone's thinking. Mine too. Obviously, I don't believe in the proposition that there are all-seeing beings above us who see so clearly and so far ahead that they have not only the means but the vision to lead/push us all in the direction they espouse.

But there are facets to that argument that are interesting to me - and those are the facets I would like to explore.

I think of this entity as being the Illuminati or alternatively, the Bilderburg Group. As sDon Firth said above, many names have been given to these all-powerful groups but to me, bankers/Wall Street/corporations are not what is being discussed. Bankers and corporations and Wall Street itself are demonstrably not all-knowing- they are strictly profit oriented. The Illuminati and - I guess - the Bilderburg people have a religious/spiritual aspect to the concept that is not present in bankers, et al. If it were not so, we would not bring in the element of 'evil'.

So:

* Who are these people?
* Where are these people?
* How did they get started?
* How do they maintain their status?
* How do they fill/re-fill their ranks?
* Are there defectors and nay-sayers in their ranks?
* Do these people have families and home towns and do they care    about their community?
* Are they somewhat like the Mafioso, caring ONLY about their families and not concerned about the methods used in implementing their aims?


That's a start. If none of us can answer these simple questions, I suggest that there is precious little we know about them, perhaps not even enough to know whether they exist.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics v. the Conspiracy Theory
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 03:34 PM

Of COURSE there are various groups of businessmen and miscellaneous political groups of various stripes who would like to be the ones in control of the nation, or the whole world for that matter, and who are, indeed, vying for control.

'Twas ever thus.

But in any political discussion here on the 'Cat, there are a couple of people in particular who can be counted on to jump in and tell us that any discussions of issues and candidates are pointless and futile because THEY (often assuming that you already know which particular all-powerful group of bogey-men they're referring to) are in total control and that if we sufficiently deluded into thinking that we can do anything about it or that our vote means anything, then we are naïve fools. It's all a foregone conclusion, so just forget it.

And when you ask them to be a little more specific, as in "who, exactly, are these people you say are in absolute control?" they tend to attack you as being either part of the plot or an idiot child.

I don't know how many times I've heard "The Bilderberg Group" cited on these threads. If you know anything at all about business, you know that groups of business leaders like this are always getting together to discuss things, AND if at all possible, GUIDE things their way. Most of them operate in the open. Some are as small as your local Chamber of Commerce and amount to little more than getting together for lunch periodically, while some are international private cartels seeking to become public cartels (by buying a sufficient number of politicians).

All of this is to maximize profits, while at the same time protecting their butts when they try to do something shady.

Business as usual. To try to claim that any one of these self-interest groups is so all-powerful that they can control the commerce of the nation, or of the entire world, intentionally cause wars and depressions, and all that, is to put them into the category of the kind of paranoid fantasies that some folks are so fond of, like the ones I list above.

DO NOT TRY TO TELL ME THAT NOTHING CAN BE DONE! WE ARE HELPLESS!

I DON'T BUY IT!

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The statement that "you can't fight City Hall!" is a piece of propaganda circulated by City Hall!

(By the way, michaelr, I'm not addressing this to you specifically. It is a GENERAL observation of the way the world works. Or doesn't, as the case may be.)

Busy the rest of the day. I have a meeting with a number of people this afternoon.

Don Firth