Singers - still get in free - 2009

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:22 PM

Lots of constructive comments!

Will split the informative elements off from the argumentative bits - hope that's ok (but will probably fail!).

Suzi Z - yes Mike Peach and his team have done an excellent job creating a nice friendly folk club. I enjoyed my visit early last year.

You charge on guest nights - but did you know that at the brilliant 1970s Dukes Head Folk Club (Addlestone) they managed to book big name guests every three months or so - and still had free entry on those guest nights. This was excellent for bringing the club and folk generally to the attention of a wider audience - perhaps the secret for the excellence of that much lamented club.

Banjiman - false divisions? I think they're real. It seems that there are undoubtedly two (3 Capt Birdeye?) types of folk club - And I'm being careful about bar sessions here, as some are proper folk clubs - but in a public space, where others are closed sessions musically, for drinkers to listen to.

This thread was intended to promote the Singers type folk club (along with those guest clubs where singers are valued for more than being punters who might ask to do a song). Drawing from this: type 1 - 'SIngers Folk Cub' - folk clubs existing for singers.

But the thread has been joined by people seemingly unhappy with singers being viewed any different from punters. ie.they broadly represent a very different sort of club - one existing to provide a 'folk product' for 'Folkal Consumers' - type 2. Here is the clear division. But isn't it a case of attitudes?

I agree with your later paragraph about overlap. What better than doing a Singers' club one night and a guest club the next if everyone in both types of folk circle can respect the difference? Indeed one of our Song Club participants tonight* also supports a particular local Guest Club*.

The problem in my experience living in different parts of England over many decades is the folk clique who see things as a pecking order, therefore looking down on floor singers, Singers Clubs and Singarounds - typically anything/one that's not commercially active. They are still all too common. These are the antagonists - and it's inevitable they will stimulate reaction.

Must add the comment of another of our singers who, in contrast, rarely goes to a guest club. She managed a guest club night recently, but although she enjoyed the guest, added that "he was no better than most of US". This says to me that Clubs that discourage floor singers by attitude, or demanding pennies from a barren purse are missing out on a wealth of folk talent. They may not need the floorsingers, but they are nevertheless restricting the pool of singers their audiences are able to hear.

And Breezy - how can I forget you!

Interested to see your reference to St Albans. Friends who came along to our Wednesday singaround a couple of weeks ago used to run a folk club at the Spotted Cow. Walked past it late last year - looks a real good folky pub still.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 02:39 AM

"Robb Johnson lives in Hove (actually)".

So do I actually

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: LesB
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 03:22 AM

The Bothy Folk Club Southport have, for 42 yrs, let floor singers in for free, but we only have floor singers when we don't have a guest booked. That's usually singers night, guest night, alternating.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 03:46 AM

Thanks Ian

The spotted has never featured as a 'folk' venue in snirbs so your visitors know sod all !

Does this mean I have left you with an indelible impression.

So you've come across tab hunter and that fiddle player he knocks around with, called Paley face, they came to us twice as guests, average !!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 03:59 AM

did I see Ian's name on the spotted cow ad board, or am I dreaming - again

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 05:03 AM

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,PeterC - PM
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 07:24 PM

Best system that I came across was the old Chelmsford Folk Club. Everybody paid on their first visit, if you did a floor spot you were given a voucher for free entry valid for one month. That of course was in the days when a folk club would fill a decent sized hall (and I mean FILL in Chelmsford's glory days.
yes, brilliant system .
can I pick up on the remark in Ian Fyvies post,about the guest not being any better than us .
I heard that sort of comment before,it was made about Nic Jones[who was brilliant as always],the person who made the remark,ran a club in kent,and could just about bash/strum, out three chords.
now maybe Ian Fyvies singer is brilliant[I dont know ],perhaps she does gigs .perhaps the standard of singers is high .
if the guest wasnt any better than the other singers,that is the fault of the organiser who did the booking,or is it,maybe other people liked the guest,but didnt say anything to the organiser ,or just appreciated a good performer with a different repertoire.
the purpose of a guest is not to be necessarily of a higher standard,for example take the Ryburn folk club,the residents are all professional .
Ian Fyvie has made recordings and done many gigs,he is of a high standard ,so the guest is not any better,so what,its not a competition,however good the regulars are,a change is required periodically .
some [not all]floorsingers would benefit from listening to guests,and learning stage craft,unfortunately it seems that those who need to improve,often dont do this,and have an over inflated opinion of their abilty,they stay away on guest nights,they dont learn new material,and dont appear to practice,and often dont listen to other singers.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 05:09 AM

the guest[at Fyvies club] wasnt me.
I rarely travel south of the midlands,just one of my eccentricites .

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 10:54 PM

Breezy - you had me scrathing my head about the Spotted Cow comments and friends who were involved many years ago.

First thought - did I get the pub name wrong - Laughing Cow perhaps? Or, as my friends are veteran folkies, they may have been involved with the SA folk scene before the 'living memory' of current supporters. I remember mentioning the old Dukes Head Folk Club (Addlestone) when I visited nearby Byfleet Club last year. People I spoke to early in the evening at least, didn't know anything about it (well it was the early 1970s!).

On Tab Hunter - Ben Paley; they ran a very nice fortnightly club for a while locally. Have not seen them for a couple of years but hear they go to the Royal Oak at Lewes from time to to time.

Capt Birdseye - I see where you're coming from and I'm not contradicting, more offering an different interpretation.

My overall view is that the gap between singers you'll only find in the Singers' Club, and those on the guest circuit is overblown. There are obvious commercial reasons here to do with the hype etc. that goes on in commercial music and other arts forms across the entertainment spectrum.

Making a guest circuit singer automatically superior to Singers Club singer is fraught with problems because there are really good singers who do not want to "go commercial"; COULD NOT go commercial for various domestic, lifestyle of work; or for less obvious reasons (ideological for example) so simply never wanted to.

Of course the guest circuit singer will probably be a more polished performer because they are going out several times a week in front of an audience. But that's still no reason to say they must be better than a Singers Club singer. There's the freshness factor. Many guest singers are doing an act. Maybe thats inevitable if you enterain for a job.

But an accomplished Singers Club singer can go out on a particu;ar night because they feel like it - no contract - no aggro; and any week they think at the last minute "don't relaly feel like it tonight" they can give it a miss. So its not hard to see how Singers Club singers can outshine various professionals.

On my friend who made the '"no better than us" comment; she was not relating to the floor singers at the guest club. She was relating that guest to singers at our SIngers Club. As to her own singing, she very good with a relaxed voice and plays guitar with feeling. As far as I know has never had ambitions to make money from her music.

By the way Capt Birdeye, did you miss out "If" before my name (last para) or have you actually heard one of the rare recordings I've made; or been to one of my extremely rare gigs (I did a 40 minute set at Raise Your Banners one year)?

Generally, I've never bothered trying to make any sort of living from Folk. Theres a reason several might identify with: if you do it for a living then it becomes a "job" - and I hate work! But I've done all that anyway as semi pro in three successful rock/cover bands whilst holding down a day job.

Lastly - and having said that about the rarity of my songs being recorded, one of my tunes was indeed recorded last night. The venue was just 200 yards from where Martin Carthy was guest at the folk club (we were probably recording while Martin was doing his first set.) The artist? Not me! The town's Brass Band - and they've made a really nice job of it.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM

"On my friend who made the '"no better than us" comment; she was not relating to the floor singers at the guest club. She was relating that guest to singers at our SIngers Club. As to her own singing, she very good with a relaxed voice and plays guitar with feeling. As far as I know has never had ambitions to make money from her music."

Iain,

This whole issue of guests being better than floorsingers (or the other way around) never even enters my head. At KFFC we may not put on floor singers and everyone pays to get in. However, a majority of the "support" act are drawn from those who attend the club..... and they definitely get in free or get expenses if they are travelling any distance when doing these spots. I guess this effectively means that the singers/ players get either a 20 or 40 minute slot once every 18 months or so rather than 1 song each month..... they do have to convince themselves and the club that they are capable of entertaining a paying audience for the duration of their set though.

Some of these people do have ambitions to take their perfrming further and some don't. So I don't see the divisions that you are talking about.... rather a continuum. Some of these support acts have gone on to a main guest slot at the club as well.... as well as putting themselves in the shop window for bookings at other clubs What is wrong with people wanting to take their talent out in front of other people? Why the big hang-up about who is best?

If your floor singer thinks she is as good as the guest she should go out there and get some bookings.... if she wants to.... her comments just aren't relevant if she doesn't want to.

Intersting debate.... I just don't see the gaping chasms that you seem to see though.

Paul

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:10 AM

Increasingly, I read Ian Fyvie's posts, and others like them, with a sinking heart.

There is certainly a need for us to champion the role and value of amateur singers, writers and musicians, but I fail to see why this should also require collateral attacks on those who do it for a living, whether partly or fully.

The truth is that the middle rank of 'working' artists in UK are in trouble. And the chief cause is that this philosophy, which seeks to sideline and even dismiss the input of touring artists, is in the ascendant, at the expense of the 'guest' ethos. It would take far more words that I have space for here to explain why - but, conveniently, the issue of Living Tradition which comes out today does have space, and does in fact contain my argument.

Frankly, you'd have to be one mandolin short of an orchestra not to recognise that there are plenty of brilliant amateur contributors to be found in this land, and that, yes, many are indeed much more talented than some guest artists.

But therefore to set the former above the latter, as Ian and others seem to have some need to do, is to miss some really important points.

Firstly, being a guest artist is not only about playing or singing or writing ability. It's about being able to hold an audience for a whole evening. That means having a big repertoire, and flexibility to tailor your set to the mood of the event. It means being able to deliver a high standard reliably, even in difficult circumstances such as illness or an unhelpful environment. It means being able to communicate in other ways than pure performance, and to own key skills such as sales, promotion, research, media presence, teaching and many other things which the brilliant amateur may, repeat; may, not be so good at.

Now, Ian will probable counter that he knows all this, but none of it means that we need guest artists in the first place.

Well, I would like him to just stop for one moment and ask himself where all these talented non-guests found their music. The days when a majority learned their songs, singing and songwriting from their local elders is long gone.

The vast majority of the people I encounter on my travels happily admit the influence of 'pro' performers, or some other aspect of the 'folk music business.' It may go as far back as Simon and Garfunkle and the 60s stars, or it may be the influence of people they've seen at festivals (possibly at workshops), or maybe it's song collections like Voice of The People - which, again, is a commercially produced product.

If you take all this away, you'll soon confine the 'grass roots' of folk music to an even more isolated ghetto, which without the refreshing wash of new good artists like a tide across the sand will soon become dry and brackish.

And the second key point is that it is the pros and more effective semi-pros who take folk music out of the established folk scene to new places like village halls, arts centres, theatres and other sundry venues, talk about our musical heritage, tell people about folk clubs, and generally promote folk to new ears.

And only the more established and successful artists will be able to make records that will go out to pastures new - through sales and airplay. And only they will get covered in newspapers and tv programmes and other outlets.

The folk scene went into a little torpor back there, and took its eye off the ball. Now it NEEDS the 'business' end - and that's a spectrum, right through from the purely amateur, through people like me (who plough a lone and difficult furrow) to the small group of 'successful' acts who manage to pay the mortgage.

So PLEASE can we have less of this continuous insidious suggestion that all guest artists are making a mint out of folk music, and that commercialism is raping the tradition?

Last night there was a good turn-out of West Yorkshire guests at Jon Boden and the Remnant Kings gig in Leeds (plus Damien Barber and Mike Wilson, and John Smith - in a rock venue). The talk was of how hard that man (and his band) works, and how gruelling life is even for the tiny minority who have reached a point where they can afford some professional help. Almost no-one is making a good living - trust me.

Yes, a few agents may take advantage every now and then, but all the folk biz people I know, including agents, record company bosses, magazine editors and the rest, earn - like us musicians - a salary that's a small fraction of those enjoyed by most amateur folk enthusiasts.

So. Where does this fit with the tread title?

Well it's common sense to say that of course there's a place for singers to get in free if that's what the group agree.

But to take that one stage further and imply some sort of moral high ground for so doing is wrong.

It's important to recognise the value of things, not the price. 'Free' doesn't necessarily mean 'better.'

By all means avoid concerts if you don't like them and don't want to pay. But don't suggest
that folk music doesn't need them.

The mouth-to-ear process has been swamped by 20th century, and can no longer keep the tradition alive on its own.

The working artist has an important role to play today - as indeed he always did.

Tom

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:39 AM

excellent post, Tom.
yes Ian Fyvie,I know who you are,and your recordings[Eaves dropper],I remember you before that too,at Croydon Folk club., [ wednesday at the Waddon]as a floorsinger .
I have been around a long time .,and like the Elephant have along memory,now what happened to Singing Robin .

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:35 AM

Never mind all of that, Tom....please answer the question!

Around your area where can Ian Fyvie enjoy a great evening of great folk music without having to dip his hands into his pockets?

:-)

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:43 PM

Ian Fyvie wrote:



So what's not to like? The venue is a short bus ride from where you live and the artist in question was Paul Downes.

Your reaction?

Decent enough indeed to agree to travel a great distance to a venue where he knew that his fee would only be what was raised by a collection. And this is someone whose income is derived from the pay club circuit you despise so much.

And he's not the only "big name" to fly in the face of your apparent obsession with money and status. In this thread and elsewhere there are countless examples of professional singers who help to run clubs and festivals and turn up unexpectedly to do floor spots. Martin Carthy epitomises this ethos, being well known for his generosity to organisers of countless clubs in not demanding outlandish fees.

So, it's not about money is it? You could have seen Paul for the price of your bus fare. So was it because you would only have got to sing one song? I'm one of the people who help to run the monthly session and I only get one song because there are so many other floor singers to fit in - and unlike you, don't run three sessions a week.

Luckily we have a wealth of floor singers - some of whom are of a really high standard - who DO think it's worth getting their guitars out, even if it's only for one song, and DON'T mind putting money in the collection.

If you change your mind, come and see Ben Paley & Tab Hunter next month - I'll even defray your expenses by buying you a pint...

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:11 AM

Apologies - Ian's quotes are missing from the above post. In trying to highlight some text in bold type or italics I seem to have hit a wrong key. (Advice on how to do this when posting would be most welcome.)

My post should have read as follows:



Ian Fyvie wrote:

"I could go a session tomorrow night and get one floorsong, and see a well known artist for nothing..."

So what's not to like? The venue is a short bus ride from where you live and the artist in question was Paul Downes.

Your reaction?

"No thanks! - not worth getting the guitar out for (no offence to the artist - who's a decent bloke)"


Decent enough indeed to agree to travel a great distance to a venue where he knew that his fee would only be what was raised by a collection. And this is someone whose income is derived from the pay club circuit you despise so much.

And he's not the only "big name" to fly in the face of your apparent obsession with money and status. In this thread and elsewhere there are countless examples of professional singers who help to run clubs and festivals and turn up unexpectedly to do floor spots. Martin Carthy epitomises this ethos, being well known for his generosity to organisers of countless clubs in not demanding outlandish fees.

So, it's not about money is it? You could have seen Paul for the price of your bus fare. So was it because you would only have got to sing one song? I'm one of the people who help to run the monthly session and I only get one song because there are so many other floor singers to fit in - and unlike you, don't run three sessions a week.

Luckily we have a wealth of floor singers - some of whom are of a really high standard - who DO think it's worth getting their guitars out, even if it's only for one song, and DON'T mind putting money in the collection.

If you change your mind, come and see Ben Paley & Tab Hunter next month - I'll even defray your expenses by buying you a pint...

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:29 AM

Banjiman - Sorry to go double negative but I probably don't disagree with most of your views.

Of course its a continuum. I take issue primarily with those who deny this - ie. those who see approved floor singers or residents of Guest clubs as superior to those of us very happy with Singers clubs. I take issue with those who see folk as a pecking order which you graduate up as an informal career path; and who deny that Singers Club singers can be any good unless they also do bookings.

The main argument extends to the 'Singers club singers v Guests at Payclubs' arena also. That's because the number of singers and songwriters around Singers clubs that are excellent; and the number of guests doing the rounds who really are not more than adequate.

Lets make it clear that by adequate I mean are able to do a reasonable guest night, give the punters what they expect. I'm not saying there are bad guests. From what my colleague said recently "To be quite honest, (the guest) was no better than most of us": it means most of us could happily do a guest spot also, provided of course we had the song quantity for a normal booked evening.

I see no reason however why any of us should want to join the Guest Club ladder if we're happy singing in a SIngers" Club and happy making albums direct for the public. Climbing up the greasy Guest Club pole is really submitting to a superfluous 'Middle Man'. And middle men normally have biases, favourites and cronies cluttering up the process.

Briefly on support singers and your folk club - you have a very intersting and unusual model. The snag I would suspect is that it's not very flexible.

Tom Bliss - check my wording and you'll find most of what I say is positive and encouraging. This thread was intended to be 100% positive - to let singers know where they can go along and sing without paying. I've no regrets about the debate that has ensued. It's good. Though unexpected, it is excellent and generally well argued.

Criticism of professionals? - of course this could be implied but that is because demening of Singers club singers seems widespread among guest club supporters.

By pointing out that singers from Singers clubs are often just as good as guest circuit singers, the implications are that we are belittling Pros. It's a perception derived from Guest Club supporters being unable to accept that Singers considered bottom in their pecking order can be as good as their professional heroes.

Where I'm simply levelling up; the Old Guard see it as an attempt to level pro singers down. This response to my championing Singers Club singers is actually the negative - and worrying aspect.

Capt Birdseye - quick one... you've got the wrong person!!

Stuart - I'm trying to disect your message. Are you saying I should be over the moon at the chance to be a punter for your guest, be happy with one song; and only have to pay out for a jug collection and bus ticket?

You need to grasp I'm a singer-songwriter more than happy to share my songs with similar singer-songwriters and traditional singers in a relaxed atmosphere. I do not need to be one of a mass of floorsingers queuing for their one song and the chance to see a guest on-the-cheap, however good that guest is. As I said in the thread you picked up my quote from originally: one song - it really isn't worth my while getting my guitar out.

I enjoyed Paul Downs singing when he called into our singarounds a few years back. I also liked hearing Tab Hunter and Ben Paley at their singaround club - also a few years back. These are good environments to enjoy anyones music and share yours. But going somewhere to see a guest without doing two or three songs myself - really isn't my scene.

I have absolutely no folk heroes and go to folk clubs purely to participate and hear others.

I must add I nevetheless respect some on the Pro folk scene such as Paul for the work they've done. There are many unsung heroes too. But implying I should have gone to see Paul because of his contribution to the folk scene actually does Paul a disservice IMHO.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 04:52 AM

Ian,

So if you were offered a paid booking at a guest club what would you do?

Have you ever done a paid or unpaid gig where you were the main entertainment for the evening?

If I read your post correctly you do produce and sell CDs?

Whose this superfluous 'Middle Man'.... do you mean people who put in the effort to organise clubs for others (guests or floor singers) to sing at?

So many questions!

Paul

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 05:29 AM

Well Ian I have read your posts again, and I'm afraid i still come away with the same impression.

"Guest Club supporters being unable to accept that Singers considered bottom in their pecking order can be as good as their professional heroes"

Sorry, I'm not picking this up anywhere. As I said, the fact that there are plenty of non-guest musicians that are better than some guests is so obvious to anyone who visits clubs as to never need saying, which is why you seldom hear it said. And I don't think I've ever heard anyone demean singers clubs per se. There is quite a lot of criticism of the few poorly-prepared or otherwise less able singers (not from me, natch), but to interpret that as some sort of attack on singers clubs in general is almost verging on the edge of a zone which has a phenomenon on the very far side of it called paranoia.

Don't forget that standards are relative. When you and your chums note a 'guest doing the rounds who really is not more than adequate' perhaps yours is the minority view. You may just not like that style, but others may love it - and it's best always to take this into account.

No, no-one is demeaning singers nights, just pointing out that they are slowly taking over from guest nights, and suggesting where this may lead. Do you see the difference?

And I'm not sure why you feel that the world is suggesting that all singers should aspire to some ladder-climbing exercise towards becoming guests. Yes people do suggest that everyone should strive to improve for their own sake and the sake of their listeners, and yes, I say it's important that a ladder should exist for the reasons I've given, but no-one's suggesting everyone should climb it. That would be just stupid!

I, and others who say similar things, are merely trying to point out the value of guests and guest nights to the folk scene overall, which is more subtle than it might at first appear.

I don't know where you learned to write and perform 'folk-style' songs, but I learned at the feet of some fantastic folk musicians (some amateur, but mostly pro - because pound for pound, pros do tend to be 'better' because they need to be). And I still love to go and watch Vin or Jez or Steves T or Kn, or any number of others, and remind myself how far I have yet to go in my own writing. I'm rather surprised that you don't.

I'm even more surprised to hear that you have absolutely no folk heroes. Is there really no working artist that you admire more than yourself? Or is that just because you seldom go to see other writers so haven't encountered any really good ones yet?

You must indeed be a mighty writer yourself (Gentle joshing here, ok? :-), and I look forward to hearing your stuff! You'll probably become yet one more of my own heroes, of which I have a couple of hundred already.

I too am a writer, but that doesn't mean I'm not delighted to be able to go and watch someone else (or a room full) without sounding a note myself. Ok, I have plenty of outlets, but I knew from an early stage, before I turned pro, that I could, if I wanted, get a bigger reaction with just one of my songs than with four. Less can be more. And I love to sit and listen too.

All that said, I understand and support your position of not being interested in guest nights. That's your choice. I merely want you to understand that if everyone felt the way you do (and people of your opinion are in fact winning the argument here, by the way) we'd eventually loose something of value. (I've already lost a wonderful career precisely because of it).

Tom

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:05 AM

Ah - found you on myspace. Nice songs. T

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 08:31 AM

Ian,

When you say, "But going somewhere to see a guest without doing two or three songs myself - really isn't my scene." can't you see how arrogant that sounds? Presumably, when you have featured guests at your club you cut short their time so that you can play at least three songs. Do you extend that right to all of your floor singers?

Let's suppose you got "a mass of floorsingers queueing up" at your club to see your guest and all of them want to play. Would you tell them it's not worth staying, because they'd only get one song, and some of them wouldn't get the chance to play at all?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:09 PM

Tom - thanks for your comments on my songs.

Thanks also for a posting that has lots of points - many of which I go along with to a degrees greater and lesser - but would defer a more detailed response here as I have to get some sleep this afternoon (doing Mudcat to long last night???).

Banjiman - yes I have a done a small number of bookings where I was the guest for the evening. I don't go looking for Folk Club / Festival bookings but I have been asked to do spots at a couple of festivals over the years (which I turned down because of transport problems) and was a concert guest at a Raise Your Banners (Sheffield) weekend in the 1990s.

I do occasional spots for pressure groups and was main support for Will Kaufman last year when he brought his Woody Guthrie show to Lewes.

Not being commercially minded I'm getting a bit woried about writing a folk CV here - not my intention. Hope you don't mind if I come back to your other questions later for the same reason as above.

Stuart - probably does sound arrogant but the point is I go to folk club to share music - two or three more songs - with 8 or 9 other singers, and any listeners who like to come along. I'm not a consumer of Folk Music in the sense of paying money to see a Folk Guest.

I can't see anything wrong with that - just as I can't see no problem with not purchasing biological washing powder in the supermarket - nothing against the product - just not one I buy.

On guests at our folk club - yes we tried every few months for a while - had some excellent nights. But quite a few regular singers gave the guest nights a miss. So we're not keen as a club on guest nights and they will be fewer in the future. And I didn't like cutting singers down to one or two songs!

Apologies for a briefer than normal reply.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM

Oops - some mistakes I missed above!

Any more venues where singers get in free?

Ian

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Indrani Ananda
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 07:41 PM

Why can't you people grasp the point that Ian's trying to explain? The gulf between guests and floor-singers is difficult to span without luck and the "who-you-know" factor. You know about the friends on MySpace? Well in the folk idiom the friends are organisers. If they like your material then you're in! The rest of us headbang, some even pay for this privilege.

                  Guests tour and get paid: good or mediocre, all they need is 'Hype' - then bums will fill seats. So the guest will find an audience and receive a good dose of job satisfaction at the same time.

                   A floor-singer, on the other hand, will practise in his lonely garret then go to his local club, hoping all the while that his efforts have not been in vain, and his guitar will indeed be called upon to impart its dulcet tones to appreciative ears instead of languishing unsung in the darkness of his guitar case. If he has to pay to sing one of his well-worn warm-up songs with no chance of any more to follow, how can people asses the scope of his talent?

                  This is no better than vanity publishing - how can a singer feel worthwhile when he has had to buy his spot and not been asked on merit? When I go to a club I want to be appreciated for what I do after all the effort of song learning and practise - not trot along there to sit like a good little doggie all night watching the "masters" croon.

                   If you are hustled off after one song, you will rarely ever be asked to do a more lengthy session because the organisers cannot possibly know, on the strength of one song, what else you can offer; and I'm afraid it's not talent you are judged on, but "How well you go down"! I've seen brilliant people who write the most amazing things struggling in the floor-singer mould. Now if they were to be hyped by the media ............

                   If every folk club in every pub the whole world over charged a nominal fee for everyone, we'd understand it would be 'to pay for the room'; but if it were to pay for some overblown guest who's usually similar to or no better than people I know, I may as well stay at home and download their overhyped CDs free off the Internet.

                   I would neither expect nor force people to pay to listen to me - I have music to give, not to sell - ie. a vocation, not a fast buck machine.


                                                    Indrani.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009!!
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:41 PM

A little bit more time after the Singaround to pick up on earlier points....

Tom - "Guest Club supporters being unable to accept that Singers considered bottom in their pecking order can be as good as their professional heroes".

Sadly I have picked up this attitude from several "Folk Scenes". I don't for a minute want to portray every Guest Club as suffering this but if I hinted at few clubs not far from here - many would know exactly which ones I meant*.

More widely, I've heard similar stories from an excellent singer in "Yorkshire" (not going to zoom in more than that) who has given up supporting any Guest Club in his area and is using his singing talents in nursing homes only. Their (the Folk Clubs) loss.

And Tom - Sorry! - you may not like this, but I heard the story of the guest who was "no better than most of us" from a another singer who I walked up with to Tuesday's singaround with (not a Mudcatter yet - but I'm trying to persuade her).

Interesting that you say singers nights are taking over from Guest nights. Like all change there will be casualties. The end result, though, should be to the benefit of Folk longterm as it will undermine the elites which I fervently maintain have stifled new talent since the 1970s and now getting their payback (a good parallel here is the former Soviet Union where the Old Guard clung to power and refused to allow younger generations access to power - so their dream died with them).

And where did I learn to write folk style songs? A very different arena to you!

As brief as I can be... I learnt to write songs in my first pop band as a teenager. Rewind a few years earlier I was another apprentice punter at school believing that music "Stars" were born - and from a different planet to the likes of us on the Council Estate; attending secondary school.

Then suddenly my next door neighbour's group released a record and reached number 4 in the UK pop charts. The mystique the powers-that-be peddled about looking up to your betters was smashed. Anyone can do it!

I joined a teenage Scout Hut group and met a brilliant Scots lad who could write an instant song from a newspaper headline. We started co-writing and before long I was writing whole songs myself.

Both these examples were simply a demystifying process - and what I'm doing in the folk scene right now is demystifying the dominant theme which is that only Guests, Residents and approved floor singers are good, anyone else is rubbish.

Oh yes - pop to folk. I didn't actually know about folk clubs for many years but found I was writing songs at work (about work) in a grotty factory - song of rhythms I knew were not suitable for my pop bands. When I lost my job I discovered the local folk club - and found people singing and playing in the rhythms I had been writing in! The rest is history... as they say.

And Banjiman - again not a complete answer (apols!) but - no I don't make CDs. But having recently retired I am working on getting as many of my songs as possible recorded and made available on CD or website.

On the middleman quote - Guest Club organisers are different things to different groups.

"people who put in the effort to organise clubs for others (guests or floor singers) to sing at?"

Dead right - in one context. Many (though not all by any means) are performing this function for the benefit of guest and floor singers. But for a singer / singer-songwriter whose face doesn't fit, these organisers' clubs are an inefficient route to travel along to get your singing or songs to a wider audience. I gave upon this route as long ago as 1980 (luckily!). What I said in the earlier posting hold firm *in this context*.

If you're not a jolly middleclass teacher type then you will see an endless stream of those who are breezing in, getting floorspots ahead of you, becoming resident and getting the junior guest spots ahead of you.

I saw through this bias early enough to realise its best to ignore these types and their pecking orders and make your own folk scene.

And Indrani - vanity singing is when you buy a floor spot? Excellent!

*wouldn't name any of these clubs of course - but will name a Guest club that's a shining example of how guest clubs should be run: Lewes Saturday Club.

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Catawauling Beefeater
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 11:57 PM

Here we go again! The question of door fees or floor fees; so many threads on Mudcat seem to degenerate into this kind of debate. If you don't pay but want to sing, it should be 'first come, first go'; if you are charged, then by hook or by crook you damwell will sing - you've bought your plot of floor for the evening. And if any overrated guest usurps your go you should demand double at the next singaround. If the landlord is robbing you for some antechamber of a room when his bar is sparse, blow him out and move on.
             I'd definitely pay if it guaranteed me a decent spot, but then again I'd have to pay the audience to sit still and listen because no-one's heard of me. That's not my fault, though. There are divers reasons for this:
                              Not born in the right bed;
                              Not married to the right (famous) person;
                              Not knowing the right people;
                              Not having money to buy my way in;
                              Not having the right kind of Daddy.
               On one side there are people like me willing to pay to sing so that their efforts are not wasted and their existence will have been brought to someone's attention; and on the other side you have a person like Fyvie Mc.Sporran who won't pay on principle, but who goes out of his way blowing his own trumpet as to which famous folkie he's been a few yards down the road from whilst recording brass bands.
                It's a folky old world!!!
                              
                                                                      Catawauling Beefeater

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 04:59 AM

"Dead right - in one context. Many (though not all by any means) are performing this function for the benefit of guest and floor singers. But for a singer / singer-songwriter whose face doesn't fit, these organisers' clubs are an inefficient route to travel along to get your singing or songs to a wider audience. I gave upon this route as long ago as 1980 (luckily!). What I said in the earlier posting hold firm *in this context*."

If you've decided this is not the route for you, whay are you knocking it so heavily?

I'm really stumped how to respond to the last 3 posts. You are describing a world I just don't recognise. For myself as a solo singer/ banjo player, I'm quite happy at singarounds and the odd floor spot. Quite frankly, that is my level, I'm competent but nothing special.... and I enjoy this for what it is.

I also play as part of a 4 piece band with 3 very talented ladies (they all sing, are multi- instrumentalits and write good songs and have an ear for arrangement of trad songs and others), we're starting to get pretty regular bookings, we only started out last June. I also play as a backing twanger for my wife who gets pretty regular paid gigs in folk clubs, at festivals and elsewhere. Her first "main guest" folk club booking was a year ago. We have mini-tours of Scotland and the Southeast booked for later this year. (I'll put up the gig list if anyone is interested)

Now, none of the acts that I play with or am involved with are probably ever going to be the best known in the folk world or else where but they do get regular opportunities to play/ sing in front of people (which I think is what the 3 posts above are complaining they don't get enough of).

Why is this? Well it is partly talent (not neccersarily mine, see above!) but it is more about the hard work we are prepared to put in. We get paid for some of what we do......but by no means all, for me personally, it is at best a self funding hobby. (The missus does a lot better!)

I could go on, but my main point here is that you don't need to:

                     be born in the right bed;
                     be married to the right (famous) person;
                     know the right people;
                     have money to buy my your in;
                     have the right kind of Daddy.

If you want to get your music "out there" you can't wait for people to offer you a longer slot based on what you do at a singaround or as a floor singer (though it does help if you can make an impact with one or two songs).... you have to make your own opportunities. I'm more than happy to share what else we have done if anyone is interested.

With another hat on (club organiser) I'm always surprised that people get upset with me for not offering them a support or guest slot.... they just assume that I know they want one when often they have often not even asked! Work that one out.

The opportunities to get your music heard are all around.... if this is important to you why not expend your energy looking for these opportunities rather than complaining that the world is stacked against you? It really isn't..... but no one said it was going to be easy either!

I still think floor singers shopuld pay to get into guest clubs.... we do if we're going somewhere to do a floor spot. Get to see some great guests as well.

Paul Arrowsmith

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: LesB
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:11 AM

I am sorry my little contribution is not more constructive (I did make a comment earlier that was answering the origional question) but my feeling is that this thread has changed into a thread about egotists with chips on shoulders.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:53 AM

"my feeling is that this thread has changed into a thread about egotists with chips on shoulders"

I couldn't agree with you more, Les.

The sad thing about this whole sorry debate is that folks like Indira and Ian seem to be consistently missing one important point.

Let's examine who is in the room...

1. Yourselves (the floor singers who desperately wants to play up to three songs to someone else's audience and get in free)

2. Those horrible bastard organisers who are denying you what you consider your basic human rights

3. The overblown and overhyped narcissist guests who are getting paid for being there (the cads!)

Who else? Have we forgotten anyone?

How about....

4. The audience who have come to see the guest (and paid good money with that in mind)

Remember them?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:24 AM

Ian Fyvie

but will name a Guest club that's a shining example of how guest clubs should be run: Lewes Saturday Club.

Er, thanks Ian, I think. It's nice to get a compliment but we'd rather not be singled out as superior to all the other hardworking club organisers in the area or around the country for that matter.

I have watched this thread with increasing sadness because it has always been my belief that one of the joys of the folk scene is that there are no divides between the audience member who simply sits and listens in a singaround to the "superstar" who can fill the Albert Hall. They are all part of the same family. It seems I was deluding myself.

Earlier you said -

It seems that there are undoubtedly two (3 Capt Birdeye?) types of folk club

I gather there are around 400 folk clubs in the country so I suspect there are probably 400 types of club and all of them are the right way of doing it. Just because someone else does it a different way from you doesn't make them wrong.

Diversity is good. You pays your money (or not) and takes your choice.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:24 AM

"Buying your floor spot" I think I've heard it all now!
As I said somewhere above that as far as I am aware the majority of folk clubs in the East Midlands charge everyone coming in through the door. I am quite happy to pay as I have come to visit the club and listen to that evening's guest or on a singer's night join in with the others present. If I get asked to do a song fine; if not no matter my prime intention was to visit the club.
This appears to be the attitude with those visiting the club I help to run as they too appreciate that the door charge is there to pay the guest. Since the majority of the guests booked at our club are of the song carrier variety as opposed to some overblown superstar (like who?)the majority of their fee will do little more than cover their transport costs so they are not exactly making a killing out of the audience (who include singers, musicians, storytellers and committee).
It is also an unfortunate aspect that often the more precious on is about getting a floor spot the lesser the talent.
"Buying your floor spot" I'll metion that one when our club meets again on 5th April - it'll get a bigger laugh than any of my jokes!!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:31 AM

"Buying your floor spot"

Excellent more revenue for the club (if they do floor spots). £5 for normal audience £10 guarantees you a 1 song floor spot, £25 for 2 songs. For £250 you get the entire night...... you might be singing to yourself but who cares!

We might be on to something here!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:45 AM

Ian and Indrani, I can see you have some local and personal reasons for feeling as you do. I'm trying to address a wide view, so can only reiterate all my points above, and ask you to see them on that scale.

I had massive support from the clubs around West Yorkshire from my very first visit, but certainly it's hard to get work if you can't visit to present your songs in person (I'm not sure if that's actually what you want or not), and you do have to knock on some doors for a long time before they're opened (and I have the raw knuckles to prove it).

I actually have much the same musical background as you, but when I dived into folk from pop (knowing no-one) I did two things: First, I listened to what was going down in clubs, and learned how the scene worked, then honed my 'product' to fit (call it marketing or just plain good manners - I was still writing from the heart), and second, I worked very very very hard (any 'hype' has been the fruit of my own effort - as it usually is), I made friends with everyone I met, and finally I did my best to wow at every opportunity (even if I only got one song).

If you can't see what UK guest artists bring to UK culture so be it. I just hope you don't manage to convert too many people to your anarchist creed, because too many good people (artists, organisers and more) would be up against the wall.

Tom

PS Beefeater - I'm not sure to what extent, if any, you're being ironic.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:25 AM

Ian - You still haven't dealt with the question of how you would manage your club if it became really popular and attracted huge numbers of singers. Tell them not to bother because they'd only get one song, and most of them would get to sing at all?

If, as you say, the ideal number is 8 or 9, why don't you take it in turns to sing in each other's living rooms and save yourself the hassle of organising public performances?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Marje
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:52 AM

I can't see why there's such hostility to the idea of singers getting together to sing, with no money changing hands. Musicians do this at pub sessions all the time, often with some singing too, and no one berates them for not booking paid guests.

In most pub sessions, there is an optimum number of (maybe) somewhere between 7 and 14, and this will tend to find its own level, being controlled by the space available and the wishes of the musicians/singers. Once a session becomes too crowded and over-subscribed, someone may set up another one- say for Irish music, or strictly-no-singers, or singers-only.

Sure, you could do it in your living room, but the bar arrangements, parking etc could become complicated. Many people wouldn't want to advertise their living room as a venue for an open session, and other members of the household might find it a bit of an intrusion. Also, there's then no opportunity for the casual pub-goers and passers-by to have a listen-in as informal audience members.

Open, free sessions/singarounds and concert-style clubs with paid guests are simply two different ways of presenting and enjoying folk music. I like both and go to both. Some people only like one or the other - I think that's their loss, but they have a perfect right to pick the setting that they enjoy. Surely there's room for both these formats, and more besides?

Marje

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:59 AM

"I can't see why there's such hostility to the idea of singers getting together to sing, with no money changing hands. Musicians do this at pub sessions all the time, often with some singing too, and no one berates them for not booking paid guests."

Marje,

Perception is a funny thing. I'd seen the hostility on the thread as an attack on paid guests/ pay clubs by those who think ONLY free, informal singaounds are acceptable! I can't really see an attack the other way.... just defence!

I'm with you, I enjoy both.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:21 AM

GASTROPOD.There are three different kinds of clubs,concert clubsthat nevere have singers nights,singarounds that dont book guests,and folk clubs that book guests but periodically have singers nights .

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:37 AM

I bow to your superior wisdom, Captain.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:25 AM

Any singers coming to hear, listen, marvel or just watch and fantasize me tonight please pay to get in as I do not want the Orpington Folk Club at the Liberal club Station road, - wots going to ne blocked, - Orpington , Norf Kent   to make a loss, come to that neither do I.

You can also buy me a drink as tonight I have a driver, and a putter, well the singing ref an Moses to be precise

Saturday night you can come for free to the Duke of Clarence in Luton cos the landlord is paying and singers ar welcome, P A provided

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,tom bliss
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:26 AM

thanks for that, Paul. i'm at the boatyard varnishing my mast and checked in on my phone while it dried.

marge - PLEASE read my posts again. I've taken pains to avoid anyony jumping to that very concusion.

Thankyou. now read Ian's posts again.

See what I mean?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:44 AM

Captain,
       There is a fourth. Those that ALWAYS present guest artists and have room for residents and floor spots.
                                                   Yours,
                                                   John

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:11 AM

"i'm at the boatyard varnishing my mast"

The mind boggles!

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 03:28 PM

A quick bit of Mudcat before I have an even quicker bite to eat before going to the singaround... apols to anyone who's point isn't picked up for the minute.

Tom Bliss - perhaps you have the key - Local Difficulties.

In some areas there is a history of cliquery - others sometimes for just a while, if you're lucky - none.

My experience extends only to three parts of England. In only one of these did I find it particularly bad. So you could argue I'm setting up an ideal Type for my argument (see Sociology theory). But it was evident in all there areas to some degree. My experience, as I've mentioned previously, has been endorsed by othe people living in different areas.

Live and let live - ideally! But you'll see from various threads that some DO see Guest clubs as superior - and some even deny Singers Clubs "CLUB" status. There is snobery in the folk scene - Emperor's New Clothes in some people's eyes?

I have to end for the minute but I want to answer any direct qestions.

Brief two?

Stuart - Marje has the answers - more, smaller sessions. As you know, we already peractice what we preach by running three small singarounds. If

Snail - only one of clubs with hard working members in the area? I wasn't compementing hard working organisers, I was complementing Lewes Folk Club policy re. welcoming all floor singers. I don't honestly think all clubs in our area welcome all floor singers - do you?

Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 10:45 PM

Back for another bite after the SIngaround (lovely atmosphere - and it wasn't just me and a mirror!)

Banjiman - have to pick up on your sentence on perception.

Our thread is here to promote singers' clubs and guest clubs where singers are appreciated as valid artists and contributors to the evening - so don't get charged - as singing Punters.

Postings 1-12 are convering information and helpful comment as one would expect from this thread. Breezy's comment (13) is the first that raises contention - as follows:

"if you expect all floor singers to enter a folk club for free then how the hell is the club going to grow and survive

I find this attitude very selfish.

just stick to the sessions".

DaveS through to Twickfolk (17) keep the pot boiling.

Breezy's solution is to ask Guest Clubs which don't charge floor singers how they do it - But that's not the point.

The verbal aggression started from the corner representing Guest Clubs - NOT the other way around.

But I love a good argument so lets congratulate CBeefeater's extremely perceptive comment "buying a floorspot" - couldn't agree more ("its the economy stupid" said someone in the Bush Administration I believe). Unless you're a singing Punter then that's what it seems to be all about; buy a spot to get yourself known in the Guest Club hierachy.

Which knits neatly to my close for this early hour.

Twickfolk and supporters - many of us don't actually go to Folk Clubs to support a guest or please a media hype indoctrinated audience, we actually go, believe it or not, to share folk songs with like minded people (some do both).

We do not need professional folk singers to show us how to sing. And pros who drop in often say they enjoy playing at sessions like ours infinitely more than doing a paying audience.   

So you're welcome to the pecking order of the commercial folk scene - when visiting your area I will always head for the Staines singaround, or similar, where I will have a far better time than consuming the most famous folk singer in the land a few miles down the road.

This thread is simply dedicated to others seeking out singarounds/singers' clubs.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: breezy
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 04:41 AM

If I had not seen and heard the likes of Paul Simon, the Watersons, Alex campbell, Martin Carthy Bob Dylan , Peter Paul and Mary, and latterly All the present 'main attractions ' both from home and abroad I would not have been doing the homework required so I paid to see and hear them and still would and do.

If you dont go because you are asked to pay admission then maybe it is you who are being the selfish one.

Surely we all can do with advice from proper singers and performers, not to could possibly make one sound arrogant if you say 'We dont need help' I learned about the effects of cheese and bananas from Martin Carthy then had other 'real' singers confirm his advice.

If one is offered a paid gig or the chance to attend a session I think I know where I would go, and possibly most others too even if the gig was going to be one from hell .

For 'like minded' dare I add 'like narrow minded' and please keep out of sight and mind of Jo Public as it is probably you who are giving the 'folk' world any thing but adverse P R

As to paying to sing then thats what singers clubs are already doing but non singers are welcome as well.

I do so like what Twick folk says. 'Hear hear' I say.

When's Chuck B coming, can I book a floor spot please ?   



This does not stop you from going to the Staines singaround and btw how are Barry and Geraldine these days and its because of limited funds that they ended booking minor guests maybe !?

Then there's the Herga singers club on Mondays too, but you would not want to pay £2 to come on in to one of the oldest clubs in the land, 46 years this month, Pinner Green social club Harrow

Tonight even

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 04:57 AM

Come on Ian, the whole point of this thread was to knock Guest clubs who think that all audience members (including those that do floor spots) should pay.

I think it makes for an interesting debate.... but come on, be honest about your motives here!

There is an element of people who have contributed to this thread who have found that the Guest club system has not met their needs.... i.e. they haven't for whatever reason managed to get on the guest circuit (when from their postings it looks like they wanted too!) who have therefore decided these clubs are a BAD thing..... and they are going to let us all know this!

I don't see anyone on the Guest Club side of the debate saying that singarounds shouldn't happen (and most confess to enjoying them) ..... whereas there do seem to be a number of people who have huge hang ups about pay clubs and try and tar them with a "corporate" brush. I think you'll find they are pretty much all cottage industries actually!

Why the attempt to undermine this part of the folk movement?

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 05:15 AM

Ian

I'm not sure I'm achieving anything useful in continuing this but perhaps i should just say I'm glad that you promote a 'live and let live' approach, it's just unfortunate that you then immediately undermine it by seeming again to attack the whole guest ethos - when most of the rest of us would recognise that, wherever our particular interests and enthusiasms lie, the UK folk scene is founded on a symbiotic yin/yang relationship between working and non-working musicians, and both elements need the other if they are to survive in the wondrous form into which the scene has evolved.

You did not start the thread with any sniping at working musicians, organisers or listeners, but a resentment towards them pervades most of your posts on Mudcat, and frequently breaks through, as it has again just now.

To suggest that there is some kind of plot to shut amateur artists out leaves you open to allegations of sour grapes, as I'm sure you realise. Guest artists are booked because the organisers and their audiences think they are good, and they have every right so to do. Full stop.

This phrase "many of us don't actually go to Folk Clubs to support a guest or please a media hype indoctrinated audience" is an insult to the folk community. Paying audiences are usually very discerning, and resistance to hype - of which there is very very little in the folk world - (unless you count a short CD review in a local A5 folk magazine as 'hype' in which case there really is no hope for you)!

What you are failing to accept is that the guest/singer system exists because people wanted, and still want it to. It was created democratically, not by some Machiavellian plot - and it's the backbone of the whole UK folk scene. Club organisers book guests because their members want them to. They appreciate what a visiting artist can bring in terms of material, arrangement ideas and just a darn good evening's entertainment.

So I say again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you preferring not to patronise guest nights, and choosing to champion free events and amateur expertise - because it's very important that people always do.

But there is a LOT wrong with you larding you argument with snide snipes at working musicians very-hard-working organisers, and innocent audiences who happen to like to sit and listen to a bit of quality music and are prepared to pay for it (heck they 'd appreciate listening to your songs if you gave yourself a chance by working with the system instead of railing against it).

As for people objecting to you calling your gathering a 'club' - well I'm surprised, but the truth is that the number of gatherings which use that word to describe some sort of guest/singer arrangement outnumbers those who use it for 'singers only' or 'guests only' arrangements by two to one. So again, that's democracy for you.

It would, as I've said many times, be MUCH better for the folk scene if we had three definitive words to describe each of our three basic types of event: Singers only, Guest/singers, and Concerts only. It would avoid a massive amount of confusion disappointment and resentment, but that's not going to happen any time soon. Meanwhile, we should all try to grope towards a consensus on language.

The other point that you may need to consider is, (and I'm not defending this), that established guest clubs near you may object to you 'parking your tanks on their lawn' and further confusing the 'folk offer' by seeming to promote guests (which is what their understanding of the word 'Club' means - as it does to a vast majority in the UK), when you are actually running a small participatory Session. They are wrong, of course - club can and does mean just a small session. but if you are as outspoken in your contempt for them in real life as you are here on Mudcat I could understand why there might be a certain amount of resentment and even door-closing in your general direction.

Tom

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: evansakes
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 05:22 AM

If anyone wants to experience the reasons why Ian Fyvie and Indrani Andana place themselves at the same level as all the overhyped and overblown guest 'stars' who play at places like TwickFolk you can experience their songs at the link below.

http://www.myspace.com/fyviesfolk

where they proclaim the benefits of "Folk Song Clubs run on fairness ethic"

A mighty wind is indeed blowing down on the South Coast of England.

TwickFolk (Folk Song Club run on artistry ethic)

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 08:07 AM

TwickFolk,thankyou.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM

Ian Fyvie

I was complementing Lewes Folk Club policy re. welcoming all floor singers. I don't honestly think all clubs in our area welcome all floor singers - do you?

Every folk club is run in exactly the same way - however the organisers want to run it. As a result, every folk club is different, hence my comment about there being 400 types of club which may or may not fit into three broad categories. Every club is independant; they aren't franchised. You can't buy a standard pack that tells you how to run a Type B Folk Club like you can for making your will, conveyancing your house sale or finalising your divorce.

You do it your own way. Twickfolk does it his way, you do it your way and all points in between and beyond. Everybody is right. This is a good thing because it appeals to a wider audience. The existence of one sort of club has no detrimental effect on any other sort in fact, they are all necessary. All tastes are catered for. There is no problem here.

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 11:37 PM

Thanks for today's comments.

Twickfolk - I didn't expect to be thanking you re. reference to our Myspace site.

The bit that's missing, for space / trying to be concise reasons is a bit of detail about the origins of Singarounds here. I was reminded of the point when reading Tom's Living Tradition article (at last!) monday morning.

The folk environment we found in the late 1970s was pretty much as some of the themes (Hands up!) I keep refering to - in various threads. There were good organisers of course, as well as exclusive ones but its the latter I blame substantially for the long term decline of Guest Clubs.

And the problems they caused must be adressed if folk is to have any sort of popular future.

The argument: Their cliquery (by that I mean letting chums walk later in the evening and getting a spot at the expenxse of floor singers promised a spot 7.30pm when they first arrived for example) drove many new singers away.

If you've been insulted, or see things run in a totally unfair way; not only will you give up trying to participate in folk, but you'll quite likely tell your mates that the folk scene is pretty awful - and the word spreads through a peer group.

This stopped a wider variety of people getting involved with folk and possibly contributed to the "uncool" perception of folk among younger generations.

Luckily what happened here on the ground one evening was that a large number of potential floor singers experienced "can't fit you in" treatment on the same night. But instead of disappearing into the anti-folk nightime, got together and compared notes. The result was a new singers club based on fairness - as an antidote the exclusivity that prevailed (and still rules OK in many places - I hear reports from Singaround supporters/visitors who've tried to get floorspots very recently).

In this case; instead of a trickle of people steadily encountering these 'in groups' and being driven away, here a critical mass was reached where there were enough people to form an alternative 'scene'.

So what of places where no such critical mass occured? One Folk scene, dying, because is was closed to outsiders so failed to replenish itself by this being "closed"?

Of course there's another group: those organisers who,despite their exclusivity were actually very good at the Folk Business - running Guest / Concert Clubs; offrering the right guest at a price audiences are prepared to pay - so are among the ones that thrive through to this day.   

But the fact looking longterm - we must surely all agree, is that there were a hell of a lot of clubs 30 years ago compared with now - and it would help all types of folk supporters to be realistic and honest about what's gone wrong where it has gone wrong.

May I make a suggestion (didn't Tom hint at this?) - that we try and encourage actual research (University student looking for a project?) into the facts and figures of the folk scene over the years; and qualitively, get a better idea of public attitudes and perceptions of folk music: clubs, concerts, singarounds, bar sessions, Morris dancers the lot.

I did something like this for the Steam Railway Preservation movement for my degree. Some of the findings produced great surprises.

Breezy, Snail - I'll get back to your contributions later.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Singers - still get in free - 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Mar 09 - 05:23 AM

Well Ian, there may be some truth in what you say, and you're not the first to make accusations of cliquery. But might it not be that organisers are merely either rewarding loyalty - i.e. favouring those who turn up reliably every week, or trying to maintain a chosen club ethos, such as traditional or contemporary, higher skill levels, chorus songs, or 'performance standards' (specially on guest nights) or whatever?

Cliques usually turn out to be no more than groups of friends, and if you're friendly too you soon get along fine. Your songs seem to be right in the middle in terms of trad/cont (much as mine are), and obviously you sing and play nicely too, so there has to be some other reason you're not getting spots - unless you're wanting more limelight than guest club averages can reasonably offer. In which case starting your own gig is the obvious solution, though taking pops at other typse of club might not be.

I get the impression you're out a lot and travel far. If so you'll be a 'stranger' at a lot of clubs, and it may take a good few visits to get accepted. I agree this is not ideal, and it's much nicer to be welcomed and feted at the first visit, but it's kind of human nature, so firing off salvos of 'grape'-shot here is unlikely to improve your situation, plus it's terrible PR for folk music.

Yes, I'm calling for an academic study. Philip Butterworth from the Arts Council is starting a survey, ant this must be good news - but I don't know what his terms of reference are, so how his findings may impact.

tom