BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 06:56 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401735.html

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:28 PM

oh yeah well..
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/15/dean.rove/

the leak prosecution precedent
the bush administrations strategy for punishing those who leak may be coming back to bite it on the ass..

In 2002 Jonathan Randel working for the DEA, leaked the fact that Lord Ashcrofts name was in the DEA files, Ashcroft sued and found the source of the leak was Randel and they threw the kitchen sink at him. Facing Potentially 500 years in jail, he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to a year in jail, plus 3probation.

the precedent does not bode well for Rove, whose leak is far more damaging than Randels.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:36 PM

BB-

Well, that's an interesting article in the Washington Post that you've provided a link to.

It does imply that Wilson has selectively marshalled his fact-finding conclusions on the Niger yellow cake Iraqi foray.

However, it also does not exonerate Mr. Rove with regard to disclosing the identity of an undercover CIA agent, Mr. Wilson's wife. I think that charge is gonna stick, like so much tar!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:36 PM

Even the Post doesn't specify Rove at the end of its' editorial. Just a maybe.

Read my lips, 7/15 @ 8:34PM, IT WASN"T ROVE!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:59 PM

The Post editorial says that Wilson didn't successfully counter the Bush administration's claims about Iraq and Niger yellowcake. From what I remember of that issue at that time, the question wasn't whether or not Saddam had requested any yellowcake... it was whether or not Niger had actually sold any yellowcake to Iraq.

I think I will tend to take whatever this editorialist has to say with a rather large grain of salt now (or would if I knew his or her name). I don't trust people who try to mislead me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 09:00 PM

Charley,

As I have stated, I am interested in the facts- IF he is guilty, he should be punished.

Just like people who lie to grand juries should be punished for perjury.... But I guess only the ones you don't agree with should have to take responsibility for their actions.....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Frankham
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM

The definition of a criminal mind is one that refuses to take responsibility for his/her actions. The blame always goes to someone else.

When was the last time you heard Bush or Rove take any responsibility for what they do?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:36 PM

Karl Rove has no respect for the truth. The only thing he respects is political expediency and winning, no matter what the cost to facts or truth.

For example, the kind of tactic that Karl Rove used when he managed George W. Bush's campaign for governor of Texas:   associating one of the most popular governors in Texas history, the fairly liberal Ann Richards, with "promoting the homosexual agenda" in the minds of the large number of religious fundamentalist Texas voters. There was no basis in fact for this. Nevertheless, with his typical regard for the truth, Karl Rove had volunteer campaign workers descend on church parking lots on Sundays and stick fliers under windshield wipers saying that Ann Richards had a policy of hiring homosexuals in her administration. She had no such policy, either pro- or anti-homosexual. But "repeat an outrageous lie often enough and loudly enough and people will believe it."

Here is an article on the tactics of Karl Rove (clicky). The following is an excerpt

In a show of political savagery never before encountered in American politics, Rove's push polls served the cause of then candidate Governor Bush in South Carolina. Within a short amount of time, John McCain's walk to the White House was disrupted by stories circulating like fire among South Carolina voters, stories push polled into their consciousness, namely that McCain's wife, Cindy, was a drug addict, that the Senator himself was a basket case due to being a POW in Vietnam, and that he was the father of an illegitimate black child following a tryst with a prostitute. How can conservatives and liberals alike not howl in disgust at these tactics?

There are those who say that, although Karl Rove cozies up to the evangelicals, in private, he worships the Devil. Not so. The Devil worships Karl Rove.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:51 PM

Will Bush see the light? If he needed to win another election, maybe, but since it serves no purpose to get rid of Rove at this point, Bush will protect him. Besides, if Rove is pushed against the wall, he will probably spill the beans. Bush wouldn't want that, would he?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

From the LA Times:

"That law makes it a crime to intentionally disclose identifying information about a covert agent. Rove's defense appears to be that he was merely trafficking in rumor or gossip, conduct that the law does not appear to cover.

According to the source familiar with Rove's testimony, Novak called Rove on July 9, 2003, in part to discuss his July 14 column. That article would describe a CIA-backed trip that Wilson, Plame's husband, had taken to the African nation of Niger in 2002 to assess claims that Iraq was seeking weapons-grade uranium.

Wilson had just written about his trip in an opinion article for the New York Times, which questioned the intelligence the administration was citing to justify the war in Iraq.

In his column, Novak insinuated that the trip was the product of nepotism and had been arranged by Plame and her CIA connections.

In their conversation, and after Novak laid out his writing plans, the source said, Rove indicated that he, too, had heard about the involvement of Wilson's wife. Rove's comments to Novak appeared to give the columnist at least indirect confirmation of Plame's CIA role.

Rove has told investigators that he had heard this information from yet another journalist — whose identity he has said he could not recall — and that he had no independent knowledge that Wilson's wife was an undercover agent.

James Hamilton, Novak's lawyer, declined to comment on the disclosure."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:39 PM

It appears that Karl Rove may have been concerned enough about what he did say to the journalist to try to cover his rear:

It Warn't Me

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 03:06 PM

Ebbie -

It seems that other reporters were involved and that Rove wasn't the only White House leaker. It is a classic case of 'reading between the lines". In any event, Valerie Plame is the victim and it is doubtful if any of those who are truly guilty will ever meet any kind of justice.

I think they are all rumour mongers and get paid big money to do so. Its their job. They were just doing what they get paid to do. I guess they never heard of integrity and right livelihood or ethics for that matter. It just show us how tightly interdependent politicians and journalists have become. They create their own reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Tannywheeler
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:05 PM

Say, Bobert, doesn't it (to coin a phrase) depend on "what your definition of the word IS is"?   Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM

i am a cynic;plus it is kind of funny that wilsons pathitic book isn't selling well[selling better now]and that rove gave the ok to name himself[maybe]
bout the same as woodward's book coming off the press at the same time that deep throat come out o the closet
follow the money maybe;makes you wonder,since most socalled public servants are only in for themself anyway[one way or another]
have a great day anyway and god bless[they won't]

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:40 PM

maybe sadam did not have anything an hand but it is known that he had used wmd's before[nerve gas and musturd gas]ask the people in iran,and the kurds.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 05:12 PM

He had them because we gave them to him. So he could kill the people we wanted killed (in the case of Iran).

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 08:50 AM

LOL, GUEST tAnnywheeler, but it seems that we may be headin' fir yet another defense based on "Depends what the defination of IS... is"... This morning's Washington Post has yet another article on the scandel which is clearer than anything I've read yet.. That's not good for Rove whose attorney is tryin' desperately to keep the issue so muddled that no-one can see it fir what it is..

One thing I can say is that the "Yeah, I heard that, too" defense that Rove's attorney is using now ain't gonna hold up but might get them to the appointment of thwe Supreme and buy them some time... All they are tryin' to do is run out the clock at this point in time...

But the leak came from someone in the Bush administartion and tryin' to blame the press fir the leak, accordin' to the Wes Ginny Slide Rule, is pirdy danged lame...

"Yeah, I heard it, too"??????

My butt...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:57 AM

From SFGate.com today:

"Washington -- Karl Rove had a secret.

In public, he was masterminding President Bush's re-election and brushing off suggestions he had played any part in an unfolding drama: the unmasking of CIA operative Valerie Plame. In private, the senior White House adviser was meeting, on five occasions, with federal prosecutors to tell what he knew about the matter.

The story he would tell prosecutors did not seem to square with the White House's denial that it had played any role in one of the most famous leaks since Watergate. Rove told prosecutors he had discussed Plame in passing with at least two reporters, including the columnist who eventually revealed her name and role in a secret mission that would raise questions about Bush's case for war against Iraq. At the same time, other White House officials were whispering about Plame, too.

It is now clear: There has been an element of pretense to the White House strategy of dealing with the Plame case since the earliest days of the saga. Revelations emerging slowly at first, and in a rapid cascade over the past several days, have made plain that many important pieces of the puzzle were not so mysterious to Rove and others inside the Bush administration. White House officials were aware of Plame and her husband's potentially damaging charge that Bush was "twisting" intelligence about Iraq's nuclear ambitions well before the episode evolved into Washington's latest scandal."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 09:17 PM

Yes, Karl Rove is a big, fat liar but even worse, he's a rumour monger.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 09:30 PM

Agreed... He is very good at what he does and I would guess the Dems would like to have someone with his instincts in their corner but without quite as much evilness... But then again, it's Rove's eveilness that makes him so good???

Can't win...

(No, BObert, ya can win but it's gonna take a lot of evilness...)

Nevermind...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:03 PM

Now it appears the VP's office may have also leaked Plame. The plot thickens.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Linda Mattson
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:35 PM

jpk, it appears you've been watching too much Fox "news." What piece of false Republican propaganda will you come out with next?

The US gave weapons of mass destruction to Sadam Hussein, and then stood by when he used them. Donald Rumsfeld in 1983 congratulated and shook Sadam's hand during the time that Sadam was using them. This picture was broadcast world-wide.

The US government has all too often been in favor of WMD.   No democracy here.

Even Fox "news" had a commentator that stated that the law that karl rove may have violated says a CIA agent's "identity" cannot be revealed. Doesn't mention revealing the _name_ of the agent. The criticisms of Joe Wilson coming up now are just further Republican propaganda.   

I hope Rove gets indicted but I doubt it. Fortunately, the tide is turning for Bush and his cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:45 PM

Yeah, seems that folks just don'ty "believe" them like they once did... Problem with "believin'" is that involves trust and seesm every month, the trucst factor goes down and down fir the Bushites....

No, I wouldn't expect some of the died-in-the-woolers 'round this jojnt to admit it but lookin' much like yer guy is cooked...

I don't think that even if he nominated Ted Kennedy to the Supreme Court that he can salvage his presidency... It's on the ropes and Rove is on the ropes an'...

...and the American people are beginnin' to see it that way for themselves....

Corruption and evilness don't win in the end...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,RoveGate
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:54 PM

"Vice President Dick Cheney's top aide was among the sources for a Time magazine reporter's story about the identity of a CIA officer, the reporter said Sunday.

Until last week, the White House had insisted for nearly two years that vice presidential chief of staff Lewis Libby and presidential adviser Karl Rove were not involved in the leaks of CIA officer Valerie Plame's identity...It is hard to fight a political war and a legal war at the same time. The noose tightens."

More
HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 11:50 PM

I hope they get Cheney at the same time but most of all, I hope its revealed that Bush put them up to it.

I know...I'm dreamin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 11:31 AM

July 17, 2005 : The New York Times
Follow the Uranium
By FRANK RICH

"I am saying that if anyone was involved in that type of activity which I referred to, they would not be working here."
- Ron Ziegler, press secretary to Richard Nixon, defending the presidential aide Dwight Chapin on Oct. 18, 1972. Chapin was convicted in April 1974 of perjury in connection with his relationship to the political saboteur Donald Segretti.

"Any individual who works here at the White House has the confidence of the president. They wouldn't be working here at the White House if they didn't have the president's confidence."
- Scott McClellan, press secretary to George W. Bush, defending Karl Rove on Tuesday.

WELL, of course, Karl Rove did it. He may not have violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, with its high threshold of criminality for outing a covert agent, but there's no doubt he trashed Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame. We know this not only because of Matt Cooper's e-mail, but also because of Mr. Rove's own history. Trashing is in his nature, and bad things happen, usually through under-the-radar whispers, to decent people (and their wives) who get in his way. In the 2000 South Carolina primary, John McCain's wife, Cindy, was rumored to be a drug addict (and Senator McCain was rumored to be mentally unstable). In the 1994 Texas governor's race, Ann Richards found herself rumored to be a lesbian. The implication that Mr. Wilson was a John Kerry-ish girlie man beholden to his wife for his meal ticket is of a thematic piece with previous mud splattered on Rove political adversaries. The difference is that this time Mr. Rove got caught.

Even so, we shouldn't get hung up on him - or on most of the other supposed leading figures in this scandal thus far. Not Matt Cooper or Judy Miller or the Wilsons or the bad guy everyone loves to hate, the former CNN star Robert Novak. This scandal is not about them in the end, any more than Watergate was about Dwight Chapin and Donald Segretti or Woodward and Bernstein. It is about the president of the United States. It is about a plot that was hatched at the top of the administration and in which everyone else, Mr. Rove included, are at most secondary players.

To see the main plot, you must sweep away the subplots, starting with the Cooper e-mail. It has been brandished as a smoking gun by Bush bashers and as exculpatory evidence by Bush backers (Mr. Rove, you see, was just trying to ensure that Time had its facts straight). But no one knows what this e-mail means unless it's set against the avalanche of other evidence, most of it secret, including what Mr. Rove said in three appearances before the grand jury. Therein lies the rub, or at least whatever case might be made for perjury.

Another bogus subplot, long popular on the left, has it that Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor, gave Mr. Novak a free pass out of ideological comradeship. But Mr. Fitzgerald, both young (44) and ambitious, has no record of Starr- or Ashcroft-style partisanship (his contempt for the press notwithstanding) or known proclivity for committing career suicide. What's most likely is that Mr. Novak, more of a common coward than the prince of darkness he fashions himself to be, found a way to spill some beans and avoid Judy Miller's fate. That the investigation has dragged on so long anyway is another indication of the expanded reach of the prosecutorial web.

Apparently this is finally beginning to dawn on Mr. Bush's fiercest defenders and on Mr. Bush himself. Hence, last week's erection of the stonewall manned by the almost poignantly clownish Mr. McClellan, who abruptly rendered inoperative his previous statements that any suspicions about Mr. Rove are "totally ridiculous." The morning after Mr. McClellan went mano a mano with his tormentors in the White House press room - "We've secretly replaced the White House press corps with actual reporters," observed Jon Stewart - the ardently pro-Bush New York Post ran only five paragraphs of a wire-service story on Page 12. That conspicuous burial of what was front-page news beyond Murdochland speaks loudly about the rising anxiety on the right. Since then, White House surrogates have been desperately babbling talking points attacking Joseph Wilson as a partisan and a liar.

These attacks, too, are red herrings. Let me reiterate: This case is not about Joseph Wilson. He is, in Alfred Hitchcock's parlance, a MacGuffin, which, to quote the Oxford English Dictionary, is "a particular event, object, factor, etc., initially presented as being of great significance to the story, but often having little actual importance for the plot as it develops." Mr. Wilson, his mission to Niger to check out Saddam's supposed attempts to secure uranium that might be used in nuclear weapons and even his wife's outing have as much to do with the real story here as Janet Leigh's theft of office cash has to do with the mayhem that ensues at the Bates Motel in "Psycho."

This case is about Iraq, not Niger. The real victims are the American people, not the Wilsons. The real culprit - the big enchilada, to borrow a 1973 John Ehrlichman phrase from the Nixon tapes - is not Mr. Rove but the gang that sent American sons and daughters to war on trumped-up grounds and in so doing diverted finite resources, human and otherwise, from fighting the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. That's why the stakes are so high: this scandal is about the unmasking of an ill-conceived war, not the unmasking of a C.I.A. operative who posed for Vanity Fair.

So put aside Mr. Wilson's February 2002 trip to Africa. The plot that matters starts a month later, in March, and its omniscient author is Dick Cheney. It was Mr. Cheney (on CNN) who planted the idea that Saddam was "actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time." The vice president went on to repeat this charge in May on "Meet the Press," in three speeches in August and on "Meet the Press" yet again in September. Along the way the frightening word "uranium" was thrown into the mix.

By September the president was bandying about the u-word too at the United Nations and elsewhere, speaking of how Saddam needed only a softball-size helping of uranium to wreak Armageddon on America. But hardly had Mr. Bush done so than, offstage, out of view of us civilian spectators, the whole premise of this propaganda campaign was being challenged by forces with more official weight than Joseph Wilson. In October, the National Intelligence Estimate, distributed to Congress as it deliberated authorizing war, included the State Department's caveat that "claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa," made public in a British dossier, were "highly dubious." A C.I.A. assessment, sent to the White House that month, determined that "the evidence is weak" and "the Africa story is overblown."

AS if this weren't enough, a State Department intelligence analyst questioned the legitimacy of some mysterious documents that had surfaced in Italy that fall and were supposed proof of the Iraq-Niger uranium transaction. In fact, they were blatant forgeries. When Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said as much publicly in the days just before "shock and awe," his announcement made none of the three evening newscasts. The administration's apocalyptic uranium rhetoric, sprinkled with mushroom clouds, had been hammered incessantly for more than five months by then - not merely in the State of the Union address - and could not be dislodged. As scenarios go, this one was about as subtle as "Independence Day" and just as unstoppable a crowd-pleaser.

Once we were locked into the war, and no W.M.D.'s could be found, the original plot line was dropped with an alacrity that recalled the "Never mind!" with which Gilda Radner's Emily Litella used to end her misinformed Weekend Update commentaries on "Saturday Night Live." The administration began its dog-ate-my-homework cover-up, asserting that the various warning signs about the uranium claims were lost "in the bowels" of the bureaucracy or that it was all the C.I.A.'s fault or that it didn't matter anyway, because there were new, retroactive rationales to justify the war. But the administration knows how guilty it is. That's why it has so quickly trashed any insider who contradicts its story line about how we got to Iraq, starting with the former Treasury secretary Paul O'Neill and the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke.

Next to White House courtiers of their rank, Mr. Wilson is at most a Rosencrantz or Guildenstern. The brief against the administration's drumbeat for war would be just as damning if he'd never gone to Africa. But by overreacting in panic to his single Op-Ed piece of two years ago, the White House has opened a Pandora's box it can't slam shut. Seasoned audiences of presidential scandal know that there's only one certainty ahead: the timing of a Karl Rove resignation. As always in this genre, the knight takes the fall at exactly that moment when it's essential to protect the king.

    * Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 11:51 AM

"How can conservatives and liberals alike not howl in disgust at these tactics?"

From what I've seen in the Mudcat over the years, most Americans who adopt the label "conservative" seem to have no difficulty whatsoever in shrugging off stuff like that. And my impression is that the other side would would be likely to see that as a sufficient justification for doing the same in reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 03:32 PM

*** Frank Rich ***

Three cheers for putting this back stabbing minidrama into perspective.

Lewis Libby and Karl Rove are the bottom feeders. Let's nail the sharks!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 03:59 PM

Its fun to wait to the end of the thread and watch mudcatters make fools of themselves.   Last week the pundints were on TV saying that Rove was guilty of treason and should be executed.   (Hannity and Colmes)   Another on Micheal Medved said the same.   It didn't matter that he has not even been charged with a crime.   The same people who demand that Ossama get a fair trial, have convicted Rove before he has even been charged with a crime.   What pathetic losers.

A week later and now the democrats liberals and progressives all concede that there was no crime committed.   Does that stop them.   Of course not.   The lemmings go straight ahead making bigger fools of themselves.    They still demand for Rove to be castrated.   And Cheney too if they had their way.   It doesn't matter if he was involved or not.

Matt Cooper was on TV this weekend. He stated that he told Rove about Valerie.   Novac has stated the same.   Lets not let the facts get in the way however.   Cooper also said there was another source.

Any clear thinking (this lets out most of you) person would know that.   Why would Judy Miller be sitting in jail to protect her sources?   it surely wouldn't be to protect Carl Rove.   If matt and Judy had the goods on Rove why would they have not used them during the presidential campaign?

The only liars are democrats, liberals, progressives, and Joseph Wilson.   He stated on record that Cheney sent him to Niger.   Unfortunately, the facts and written documents don't back him up.   His wife sent him.   Than he lied about it over and over.   He says that Iraq didn't buy yellow cakes.   The question is not whether they bought it but whether they ATTEMPTED to buy it. British intelligence stands by their story to this day.   Who do you believe- Wilson the liar or British intelligence.

Of course to maintain her confidentiality, she does a spread in Vanity Fair.   Thats a great idea to keep you identity a secret.   If she need to remain anonamous and nobody could find her, she should have went on Air America.    Air America would be a great witness protection program.

by next week, all the politically driven get rove at any cost partisans will look even more foolish.

2006 is just around the corner. I see us picking up a few more seats.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,The Phantom of the Uproar
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:20 PM

It ain't over 'til it's over, Larry. And it ain't over yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:21 PM

" The only liars are democrats, liberals, progressives, ..." See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:32 PM

Poor Larry.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:42 PM

Larry-

Just in case you missed it, Cooper's SECOND SOURCE was Lewis Libby, senior aide to VP Dick Cheney.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:49 PM

"The same people who demand that Ossama get a fair trial, have convicted Rove before he has even been charged with a crime."

I think that's stretching it a bit. Perhaps you'd like to name these people so we know who you are referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:32 PM

you know; this is looking like a weed patch[in fact the intire info world is]sow a rumor and it grows and morphs and becomes belived.the media with its he said they said but i can't say who said reporting.
even when it is said to be true,can it be belived,likly not
one person said it so it spreads and becomes gosspiel,lies into thruth and thruth into lies,i can not believe it but even here you read it and agree with it you belive it no matter what.no thought an objectivity what so ever, have a nice day anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Shakey
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:38 PM

Would somebody kindly translate that for me.

Thanks in advance

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Metchosin
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

Dunno, sounds a bit like English, as spoken by Bush, to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:32 PM

"You know, this is looking like a weed patch. (In fact the intire info world is.) Sow a rumor and it grows and morphs and becomes believed. The media with its "he said, they said, but I can't say who said reporting", even when it is said to be true, can it be believed? Likely not. One person said it, so it spreads and becomes gospel. Lies into thruth and thruth into lies. I cannot believe it. But even here you read it, and agree with it. You believe it no matter what. No thought (and?) objectivity whatsoever. Have a nice day anyway."

(Am I close?)

Maybe he's talking about all of the lies the Bush administration told (and the news media spread) to get us into war with Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:38 PM

*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Kaleea
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:05 PM

A politician lie? What a new concept!
    "I am not a crook."
             -some yahoo that used to work in Washington D.C.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:08 PM

larry k's response is laughably infantile.
who do you believe wilson the liar? or how bout Bush the liar..
the Bush administration is number one in credibility..

wasnt that attempt to 'letthem eat yellow cake' evidence printed
on some phoney stationery from some previous administration.
(According to the Italian Secret service, it was a mickey mouse attempt)

oh by the way did you know Rove's lawyer had previously accepted $500,000 US in gold bullion from a colombian drug cartel. Of course were not naming any names.
ONe thing is fairly clear. with the Iraq insurgency somewhere in its death throes or possibly 12 more years -- if the US is in Iraq in 2008 look for a democrat in the WHitehouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 09:09 PM

Thanks GregF fir the Frank Rich column... It was a great read and one that larryK apparently didn't want to be bothered reading or he wouldn't have followed it with a response that ptr aptly defines as "laughably infanitle"...

But, whereas I see the logic if Rich's obsevations, and can't find faulth with them, I still would like to see Karl Rove go down... He us a creep and a pathological liar... Folks like that shouldn't be rewarded... If he didn't come from the mneyed calss he;s be doing time in some penitentury...

Like Rich pointed out, whether Rove goes or not, the Bush prersidency is unravelin' and his legacy will be that of the worse president since, ahhhhh, ahhhhhh.....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 09:34 PM

gee...the Republicans sure understood evasion and nit-picky definitions when the statement was:

"I did NOT have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky"... but they don't see any problem with:
"I did NOT reveal the woman's name, I only confirmed it when they guessed what I was getting at..."

sheeesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 09:52 PM

After a big ol' "You know, the gal married to Joe Wilson" sized HINT!!!!

With "I probably have said more than I should have" as the *kicker* just in case Rove thought that the reporters hadn't grasped the full intent of the hint....

Youi know what??? This whole defense is purdy danged retarded!!! Excuse my political incorrectness but it realy has...

Bobert

(But, BObert... Now Righteos LarryK will jump down yer throat fir using the "r" word... )

Oh, horrors.... Over 100,000 people dead from LaryyK's hero's war and now I'm the culprit??? Typical Repub thinkin' these days... Blame all yer mistakes on others... Normal....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 10:00 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 10:03 PM

thing is, Rove is NOT a dumb fellow. He knows when not to say stuff, and he understands how to keep BUSH from blabbing the wrong things by feeding him short, concise answers for most occasions....but Rove, after 5 years of pulling strings and watching puppets dance, has gotten smug in his power and overconfident in his notion of what is permissible when you fee' 'righteous', and he can't resist pushing his luck and doing one more bit of smearing of his 'enemies'.

Now I don't know whether I hope he is fired, or whether I hope he stays where he is so we can keep an eye on him......

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 10:12 PM

Larry--

Thanks so much for your (as always) calm, lucid and well-reasoned statement of the case. I wouldn't have expected less from you.

"If she need (sic) to remain anonamous (sic) and nobody could find her (sic) she should have went (sic) on Air America". That one sentence speaks worlds about the people behind Bush's "mandate". I am of course including your good self in that number.

You have however glossed over an unpleasant core fact-- (I wonder why)--cited in the Wall St. Journal (that leftist rag, as I like to say): Wall St Journal, 18 July 2005: "White House spokesman Scott McClellan said two years ago that neither Mr. Rove nor Mr. Libby had been involved in revealing Ms. Plame's identity. Accounts by Mr. Cooper AND MR. ROVE-- (my emphasis added) -- show Mr. Rove was involved in discussions of her CIA employment with reporters who later wrote about it. Mr. Cooper says he discussed the matter with Mr. Libby as well".

As you may have perhaps heard, facts are stubborn things.

Don't bother to quote a Wall St. Journal editorial back to me. My quote is from the reporting. Perhaps someday you can get someone to explain to you the difference, in reputable media, between reporting and editorial comment.






Also, let nobody mistake Rove, Bush, and their apologists for conservatives. They have proven themselves, in spades, to be demogogues and reactionaries of the most blatant stripe.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:40 AM

Also, let nobody mistake Rove, Bush, and their apologists for conservatives. They have proven themselves, in spades, to be demogogues and reactionaries of the most blatant stripe.

Unfortunately, the real conservatives ain't figured this out and are still toadying to the BuShites.

Kinda like the real Christians [always assuming there are any] are still carrying the can for the "christian"[sic] Fundamentalists.

Only time will tell if either group wakes up....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:46 AM

never heard of Karl Rove -BUT

Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:46 AM

we'll have another hundredrh!!