Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me

Subject: Folk England. Sounds good to me
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Jun 25 - 05:18 PM

Just had an email from EFDSS about the name change.
No doubt some will complain, but it seems to sum up what they do

Subject: RE: Folk England. Sounds good to me
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Jun 25 - 03:16 PM

The last official thing of theirs that I saw had little to do with "folk" but masses to with "woke".

Robin

Subject: RE: Folk England. Sounds good to me
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 06 Jun 25 - 03:13 AM

The name signifies that they now see themselves as an 'arts' organisation.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 02:54 AM

Not entirely accurate description, and one that depicts a nationalistic approach rather than international. Their excellent festival insurance policy is aimed at promoting international folk dance in geographical europe.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 05:32 AM

Much better than the first proposal.

Sandman complains that it shows a nationalistic approach, but its remit is English music and dance so the name is appropriate. Its charitable objects are:

2.1.1 TO PRESERVE ENGLISH FOLK DANCES AND SONGS AND OTHER FOLK MUSIC (INCLUDING SINGING GAMES), FOLK TALES AND FOLK DRAMA, TO MAKE THEM KNOWN AND TO ENCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF THEM IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS; 2.1.2 TO PROMOTE THE KNOWLEDGE AND PRACTICE OF ENGLISH FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA BY MEANS OF DANCES, SCHOOLS CLASSES , EXAMINATIONS, LECTURES, DEMONSTRATIONS, FESTIVALS AND OTHER LIKE METHODS; 2.2.3 TO PROMOTE AND ENCOURAGE RESEARCH INTO AND STUDY OF THE ORIGINS DEVELOPMENT AND TRADITIONAL PRACTICE OF ENGLISH FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC TALES AND DRAMA AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE OF OTHER COUNTRIES.

How effective it is at this is another matter. It does now seem to be an arts organisation supporting mainly professional performers and educators but doing little for the grass roots. I find it both surprising and a matter of regret that in more than 55 years involvement with folk music it has had little relevance to me.I wish it well, but I wouldn't notice if it were not there.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 06:46 AM

Was it ever a grass roots organisation? The objects could be read as if the traditional practice was the subject of research, preservation, etc.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 07:07 AM

They don't seem to be following through on preserving dances in their original form if they have a ban on black faces!

Robin

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 09:25 AM

Well, Steve Roud (Folk Song in England) is pretty definite on the black face tradition deriving directly from the "n.. minstrels" of the early to mid 19th century, and gives a fair amount of evidence, so argue with him. And they don't ban black faces, only non- black faces blacked up. Which might make English dancing a bit more attractive to English people whose faces are naturally unwhite.

You can take the name "Folk England" other ways if you like, an Irish, Welsh or Scots nationalist might spell "folk" a different way. But the name EFDSS specifies dance and song, so tunes for their own sake and stories without tunes would seem to be marginalised.

And bugger nationalism, it buggers everything else up. Love of your own culture doesn't have to mean not-love of other cultures.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 11:35 AM

Early to mid 19th century sounds traditional to me, it would count as antique!

Robin.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 11:55 AM

"TO MAKE THEM KNOWN AND TO ENCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF THEM IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS" seems very clear.

I don't see "England" as nationalistic. Culture has a geographical aspect and taxpayers' money an administrative area aspect.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: r.padgett
Date: 12 Jun 25 - 12:08 PM

Well no mention of song or dance and I do wonder if the traditional aspect is also to be implied

EFDSS efdus is imv pretty well covered ~ yes things do change over time and have we had an updated "Constitution" with aims and objects etc

The "Folk England" seems to have got younger and all embracing and good luck to it ~ seems to me that more women involved whilst the World gets on with its take on folk as usual ~ long live the morris, song, traditional and other dance

Ray

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 25 - 12:07 AM

Howard, I was not complaining, just being factual,
its remit as far as festival insurance goes is to encourage tradtional music, song and dance from the geographical British isles, Poviding it is performed anywhere in geographical Europe

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 25 - 03:03 AM

folk England includes other national traditions found in England, INCLUDING FOLK TRADTIONS OF IMMIGRANTS

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 25 - 04:02 AM

If so it needs to update it's 'objects'.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 25 - 04:28 AM

it has always included some immigrant traditions, example white russian dance groups

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 25 - 06:58 AM

if so it has always included things not covered by it's charitable objects. Presumably then everyone has always know this and not been bothered by it. But if it sought funds for the furtherance of white Russian folk dances a donor may pass on by and if it used charitable resources to do that English folk practitioners might say "hey your charitable status is for supporting us not them".

Rebranding seems like a good idea but they ought to be consistent about what they are for.

And not forget that in multicultural England English traditions still need a voice and maybe some money.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 25 - 02:27 AM

But if it sought funds for the furtherance of white Russian folk dances a donor may pass on by . quote
Surely Russian folk dancing is as important as any other National folk dancing,

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 25 - 06:37 AM

It's not about importance. It about describing what a UK registered charity does. If a charity says its about dog welfare someone wanting to donate in support of dogs doesn't expect the charity to be spending money on cats, however important cats may be.

It's also about the focus and expertise of staff and volunteers.

It is not clear from the objects that "ENGLISH FOLK DANCES AND SONGS AND OTHER FOLK MUSIC" means "the folk dances and songs and other folk music of people in England" whereas "Folk England" probably does mean that. If so they should update the objects.

I think the there is an argument for the VWML sticking to English folk until it has fully caught up with that.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,John From Kemsing
Date: 20 Jun 25 - 07:28 AM

Since it`s inception the organisation seen much change has been inclusive of traditions from outside our islands so why not call it "The Folk Song and Dance Society". This allows it unlimited scope.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Jeff Roe
Date: 22 Jun 25 - 01:36 AM

"The Folk Song and Dance Society". 10 out of 10

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Jun 25 - 02:01 AM

Last post is a bit wide

The Folk Song and Dance Society in England ~ maybe?

Ray

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 23 Jun 25 - 06:53 AM

How about English Traditional Folk Dance and Song Society
What makes EFDSS think they are qualified to represent all folk music in England.
There are organisations better suited to cover their own national music in the UK.
'Comhaltas Ceolóirí Éiireann', 'Federation of Polish Folklore Groups in Great Britian', 'UK Chinese Music' (UKCM) etc. There's lots more if anyone is interested.

I think we need an organisation to actively support English traditional folk dance and song.
I really can't understand why EFDSS who are short on funding are giving £2000 bursaries to professional singer-songwriters, do they make the same offer to professional singers of traditional songs ?

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Jeff Roe
Date: 23 Jun 25 - 11:08 AM

We need an organisation to actively support English traditional folk dance and song.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Jun 25 - 12:27 PM

"Traditional" limits the activities of the organisation We must move with the times imv

and just because you or me sing traditional songs WE are not traditional singers that is reserved for the likes of Walter Pardon, Harry Cox and Fred Jordan

Ray

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 25 - 01:18 PM

A Dedicated Follower of Fashion ?

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 23 Jun 25 - 02:22 PM

"Traditional" limits the activities of the organisation" so does "Folk," Ray. Why don't they call it "Song and Dance of England" then they can really move with the times.
Who suggested revival singers should be called traditional singers ? If you're referring to the last sentence of my post I actually said
"do they make the same offer to professional singers of traditional songs ?"

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jun 25 - 07:45 PM

A Chinese lion dance troupe has a lot more in common with an English morris side than any singer-songwriter does with a traditional source singer, or someone performing their material.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Jun 25 - 01:35 AM

"Folk" in "Folk England" as adopted new name is meant to be all embracing by EFDSS efdus

Ray

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 24 Jun 25 - 05:51 AM

I totally agree, Jack.
"Folk England" that's grand Ray, now if you tell me what that means, I'll be all the wiser.
If they renamed 'Cecil Sharp House', 'Ed Sheeran House'that would be a huge leap forward, he might even give a few bob to support other singer-songwriters.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jun 25 - 06:17 AM

How about Folk in England? :-D

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Jun 25 - 11:23 AM

Well Keith Price that's what I would like to know!

I personally feel EFDSS efdus is much better

Ray

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 24 Jun 25 - 11:47 AM

Indeed Ray, we'd all be wiser. :-)

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Jim Riddle
Date: 26 Jun 25 - 01:19 AM

If they renamed 'Cecil Sharp House', 'MacColl House'that would be controversial, it might generate a few bob to support other singer-songwriters.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 26 Jun 25 - 06:35 AM

I'm afraid MacColl is too old fashioned Jim.
They want fresh new talent, it doesn't matter what they write or sing as long as it brings Arts Council funding.
There doesn't seem to be any great interest in the old songs
For someone living outside of London, EFDSS = Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, without that it would just be a north London community centre.
Arts Council funding is essential because they have given up on raising funds through membership.
They have around 3.000 members worldwide. Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann for all its faults has about 3,000,000 members worldwide and 50'000 volunteers.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 25 - 03:28 AM

They should copy arts Wales? quote
Subject: Trad Music Research, Cymru / Wales
From: sian, west wales - PM
Date: 28 Jun 25 - 07:12 PM

For those who are interested in audience research and funding policies, you might be interested in the new report from Arts Wales.

sian

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 25 - 03:32 AM

https://arts.wales/news-jobs-opportunities/major-review-highlights-opportunities-strengthen-traditional-music-wales new report from Arts Wales.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 09 Dec 25 - 09:39 AM

I can't see a more recent thread about the name change, so here's the substance of yesterday's email from EFDSS (for those who aren't members so won't already have seen it).

As previously reported, the AGM motion to change the organisation's name to Folk England received 69.44% yes votes, a majority, but short of the 75% majority needed to change the legal name as required by the Companies Act 2006.

As a compromise(?) EFDSS "will begin operating under the trading name of Folk England in 2026" while retaining English Folk Dance and Song Society as the charity’s legal name.

I suggest we refrain from rehashing our various opinions for or against the new name on here. Time will tell whether it has the intended effect of making the organisation more attractive to those whom the Board believes to be put off by the old name, and whether the world at large gets a better or worse idea of what the organisation is actually for -- though the registered charitable objectives ought to leave no doubt about that.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 09 Dec 25 - 09:52 AM

Perhaps having both names visible, as I presume they will have to do for legal reasons, will give the best of both worlds.

Robin

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 25 - 11:07 AM

will it increase membership?

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Dec 25 - 04:43 AM

A good question ~ Folk England very likely has membership at least England/UK based and clubs for dancing a popular pastime

So men and women dancers, dance caller and musicians ~ organisers booking venues etc

Song cubs again participants new comers and passing on the knowledge ~ often find Folk England (EFDSS) a source of interest ~ it does to take time to pass on the skills etc

Ray

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 15 Dec 25 - 02:49 AM

Folk Britain might have been more inclusive.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 15 Dec 25 - 06:39 AM

Only a tiny number of all those involved in folk music are actually members of EFDSS. At 31 March 2025 the number of individual members was only 1867, although it might have picked up some more in the lead up to the vote. I suspect some of those are only members for the liability insurance.

I very much doubt it is the name which puts people off, rather that the organisation has very little relevance to the folk scene as a whole. If you live in London and have access to the events at C# House, or if you are involved in education or research then Folk England/EFDSS may have something to offer. If you are a professional musician you may occasionally benefit from a grant or bursary. For the majority of ordinary people attending folk clubs or dances it is simply irrelevant.

I don't particularly object to the new name, which is certainly better than the original suggestion, and I think the compromise gives the best of both worlds. It may make it appear more modern in the eyes of the rest of the arts world it seems so desperate to be seen as part of. Most of the folk world will continue to manage without Folk England just as they do without EFDSS.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 15 Dec 25 - 06:49 AM

Absolutely spot on Howard Jones.
Paul, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and the Isle of Man have their own
organisations that seem more effective than The English Folk Dance and Song Society.

Subject: RE: Folk England (prev. EFDSS) Sounds good to me
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 15 Dec 25 - 12:50 PM

In fairness, EFDSS is quite effective at what it does. It provides a lot of resources for educators, runs conferences for those involved in research, and of course the library is invaluable especially as so much is now online. If you live close enough there are lots of events and courses at the House. But it seems to take no interest in, and offers no support for, grass-roots activities. What it does is actually quite limited in scope.

A sports organisation I am a member of offers lots of resources and to its member clubs. When I asked EFDFSS for advice in connection with a series of dances I was involved in running I didn't even get a reply.