EFDSS President Article

Subject: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 08:13 AM

Eliza Carthy, Folk music is sexy and filthy and at the end of the night you fall over, that is how i live
quote FROM THE GUARDIAN. by Dave Simpson
I have been a professional folk singer for46 years, i do not fall over at the end of the night, i do not live like that.
I disagree with Eliza, but I realise she may have been misquoted, however the article should be read in full

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 08:21 AM

I value professionalism.
I saw some of my predecessors the worse for drink when performing, and vowed i would not go the same way, the day that i need a zimmer frame at a gig, if i fall over, is the day I will retire.
What is important in my opinion, is to show respect for your material and for your audience

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 08:28 AM

Was she speaking on behalf of the EFDSS ?

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Reinhard
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 09:25 AM

The whole paragraph containing the quoted sentence is:

“I object to the Brit-centric definition of folk,” she says, “which is very white and safe and fixated with acoustic instruments.” In her role as president of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, she has been keen to shake things up, diversity-wise. “To me, Ariana Grande is folk music. Bohemian Rhapsody is folk. I define folk as whatever you can sing in a pub – and for people to be able to join in and be as shit as you like. Folk music isn’t clean. It’s sexy and filthy and at the end of the night you fall over. And that’s how I like to live.”

The whole Guardian interview

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Oct 22 - 10:33 AM

Context is everything.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 22 - 10:28 PM

Thank you, Reinhard.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 01:34 AM

“I object to the Brit-centric definition of folk,” she says, “which is very white and safe and fixated with acoustic instruments.” In her role as president of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, she has been keen to shake things up, diversity-wise. “To me, Ariana Grande is folk music. Bohemian Rhapsody is folk. I define folk as whatever you can sing in a pub – and for people to be able to join in and be as shit as you like. "quote Eliza Carthy. EFDSS President
I disagree with a couple of things here.
1. it is not ok to be as shit as you like, it is important to perform to the best standard you can out of respect to an audience that has paid good money, and to show respect for your material
2. One of the roles of the EFDSS is to promote British folk music whoever it is played by. whether those musicians be black, white, brown or yellow, whether they be British of different colours or whether they they be French German Russian, funnily enough I was looking at an old EFDSS magazine from the 1986, lo and behold there was an advert for The Dabrowa Family who performed Russian and Polish songs, CIRCA 1986
3.Safe? were the songs of Macoll and Seeger and Leon Rossellson and Roy Bailey and Peter Bond and Woody Guthrie andKeithHancock and Dick Gaughan safe , I think not , those songs are part of the UK folk repertoire and ARE OFTEN Anti Establishment
EFDSS member Dick Miles
The above is a copy of an e mail I have sent to the EFDSS

However, I would add that her analysis is correct, then EFDSS must partly take the blame. If people of her generation were to organise events in the way she suggests joining the EFDSS to take advantage of their festival insurance scheme that would be a positive practical solution to her criticisms.
Meanwhile at the age of over 70, I have organised a festival for over 9 years with singers and participants from USA Norway Wales Ireland England, young people need to start organising events., and joining EFDSS and taking positive practical action.
Stilly River Sage, here is a quote from my original post ."however the article should be read in full" which makes your comment unnecessary

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 04:44 AM

“I object to the Brit-centric definition of folk,” she says, “which is very white and safe and fixated with acoustic instruments.” In her role as president of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, she has been keen to shake things up, diversity-wise.

Point of CRT Order: Conchies & many others identify more as an upper case "W" when it comes to the song and dance bits. And sometimes segregation can be a good thing, eg: personal consumer preferences; British/English folklore & history of same.

History is only entertaining when it lines up with the individual consumer's preferences and those change with the consumer. Like it or don't. Folklore and the document record both evolve but the past centuries do not. TikTok shanties on amplified plastic fiddles will always be pirate opera and never authentic or traditional maritime work song.

As an EFDSS subscriber, preferences are the only thing that matters. As a discographer, historian &c, personal identities, preferences and/or objections are a ball and chain and blindfold.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Mo the caller
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 05:02 AM

I think Guest is missing the point in saying

“To me, Ariana Grande is folk music. Bohemian Rhapsody is folk. I define folk as whatever you can sing in a pub – and for people to be able to join in and be as shit as you like. "quote Eliza Carthy. EFDSS President
I disagree with a couple of things here.
1. it is not ok to be as shit as you like, it is important to perform to the best standard you can out of respect to an audience that has paid good money, and to show respect for your material

Yes, if you are a performer you should want to do your best. But is that 'folk'. I think she is making the point that folk is what people do. Join in with 'whiskey in the jar' at a pub singaround, or playing Winster Galop (at a trot) because it's the only tune you know. And people join in and raise the roof. Joy.
Personally I wouldn't want to fall over at the end of the evening, but I do appreciate an unjudging encouraging attitude. You can't be marvellous at everything, but that doesn't mean you don't get something out of it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 05:49 AM

The whole spin of the thread title and opening post is wrong. It is not an article about the EFDSS or its president. It is about Eliza Carthy who just happens to be the president of the EFDSS at the moment. It is about her recent life, her views and her new album (Whicj I am looking forward to hearing) I read the article earlier this week and the only mention of the EFDSS in context is -

In her role as president of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, she has been keen to shake things up, diversity-wise. “To me, Ariana Grande is folk music. Bohemian Rhapsody is folk. I define folk as whatever you can sing in a pub – and for people to be able to join in and be as shit as you like. Folk music isn’t clean. It’s sexy and filthy and at the end of the night you fall over. And that’s how I like to live.”

Nor does she, as you can see, advocate being 'shit' when you perform. It says specifically "to be able to join in and be as shit as you like" which is indeed part of the ethos. I have never heard of a performer telling people not to join in because they are not good enough!

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 06:31 AM

I terribly disagree with ELiza. Folk music originated from tradition, broadsides, tales and tribulations. Very unprofessional comment, as she proclaims she couldn't pay her bills during Covid. Not sure what to make of her at this point..

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 07:07 AM

If you are a performer who is paid,you have to perform well to justify being paid,ending your act by falling down drunk or stoned is not acceptable.
What is or isn't folk music is a never ending debate as this forum has demonstrated seemingly for ever.
Mo's point that folk music is whatever people choose to sing or play for their own entertainment is broadly correct.
Many people maintain only the traditional songs and tunes are true folk
music.This ignores the fact that they were new when composed and only became trad because they were adopted and repeated by people.Tradition is the act of doing the same thing at certain times or in certain circumstances.
Eliza Carthy was making the point that Mo was,the way she expressed it was perhaps a little too earthy for some.
She didn't say that is or should be Efdss policy, she was expressing her own opinion.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 07:12 AM

Folk music originated from tradition, broadsides, tales and tribulations.

Yes GUEST but it has to be an evolving tradition and be accessible, and to allow in new ideas, otherwise it is purely a MUSEUM with lots of dusty shelves and most of the stuff locked away in storerooms.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 10:25 AM

The anonymous guest posts indicate that those posters are insecure enough in their opinions that they aren't willing to say so in their own names. They want to criticize without being criticized back for their churlish opinions, making them less than helpful. Annoying gnats buzzing around the topic.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST,Jerome Clark
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 12:53 PM

If as an American I may take this discussion out of the purely British scene for the moment:

On three occasions back in the last century, I attended performances by Townes Van Zandt, whose music I admired on his best recordings. (His recorded output was uneven.) On each live occasion he appeared drunk or stoned -- in other words, impaired and uninteresting. As a cash-paying audience member I felt insulted, furious, and robbed. The last time it happened, I vowed to see him no more. In fact, I had stopped listening even to his albums in the years before his death. Even now I hear them only rarely.

The moral of the story: If you're a musician who feels the need to get shit-faced, do it at home or among like-minded associates. Your fans deserve a whole lot better. I say that, by the way, as a happy consumer of Eliza Carthy's recordings. After her recent pronouncement, unfortunately, I'd hesitate to pay good money to see her in person.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 01:07 PM

Who said anything about drink? There are other reasons fo falling over. Exhaustion, after giving it your all?

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 01:28 PM

Read the article, Jerome. Nowhere does she say that she gets drunk or stoned while performing. Her only reference to drinking is having 4 glasses of champagne at the premier of Jerry Springer, the opera.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 05:09 PM

What's the difference between being "Guest" and "Stilly River Sage" ?

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 05:10 PM

PS - both opinions are equally valid. BZZZZZZZ.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 05:21 PM

A known individual who is responsible for their remarks. Meanwhile the context wasn't posted (a longer quote or a link to the article) so this whole discussion is another silly UK argument in the making. It belongs down in the BS section where you have to log on to post.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 06:36 PM

Another silly UK argument? That's insulting.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 22 - 07:47 PM

It will eventually boil down to "what is folk" with everyone piling on. You know it. Perhaps the best description would be "rehashed argument."

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 02:50 AM

Anyway, Jerome claims to be American so it's not a UK argument, even if it can be called an argument.

When does a difference of opinion become an argument?

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 03:53 AM

Manitas. The opening post was by an ex-pat Brit living in Ireland and I suspect at least one of the other guest posts was by someone in the same situation. So, yes, UK argument was probably the wrong phrase. Stilly River Sage did subsequently ammend her terminology to "rehashed argument", which it would have undoubtably become. The opening post and even thread title were misleading and seemingly used to provoke reation. It would have been inundated by 'guest' trolling had it have been allowed to stay above the line.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 04:19 AM

It's fine to express the opinion that it's a UK argument. You may be right, you may be wrong. It's not fine to prefix it with "another silly...". There's rather too much of that attitude coming from across the Atlantic. It doesn't exactly do much to promote a good ethos here.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 07:18 AM

Repeating from my last post, Steve. SRS has accepted the criticism and changed the phrasing. Yes, ok, there does seem to be a lot of attitude you describe but, in this case, it has been corrected

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 07:53 AM

OK, Dave. But by their fruits, etc...

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 08:02 AM

But by their posts you should judge them. That includes all posters.
Some need to examine their own behaviour.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 08:58 AM

Well I read the Guardian piece when it was first published. I do not agree with Ms Carthy's remarks about what she regards as folk music, and I played music in pubs just about every Friday night for 20 years and neither fell over at the end of any evening (in spite of the free beer) nor saw any of my mates falling over. Good, *clean* fun is what we nearly always had (unless uninvited bodhranistas or spoon-rattlers tried to join in on rare occasions), and I wouldn't have shown up otherwise.

As Ms Carthy holds high office in the world of folk music, and as she is something of an English folk grandee, I think it's valid that her comments are reproduced here for discussion. Her comments may be regarded by many as controversial at best and inflammatory at worst, so it's hardly surprising that there's the risk of wigs on the green in this thread. The opening gambit(s) in the thread were not helpful, but they have not been the only unhelpful comments made.

I've said that I don't agree with her and I've backed that up with my personal experiences of being involved in, er, traditional music. That's the way to discuss this without setting anyone else on fire.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 10:01 AM

Dick starts a lot of posts that are intended to argue. He posts frequently as Guest, or Guest Guest, occasionally other names, or sometimes nothing. Like we don't know from the tone and style who wrote them? His intent is not pure scholarly discussion, and after years of reading this stuff, he can be considered "silly" though "annoying" is more accurate. The thread was judged largely by the tone of the first post. It hasn't improved since, and as Dave notes, invites trolling.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 03:23 PM

Well it doesn't help peace and harmony to try to stoke up the ould "what is folk?" nonsense. I'd agree with that. All I know, and I don't know much to be honest, is that Bohemian Rhapsody isn't folk. I once heard a music teacher in an evening class I attended saying that Bohemian Rhapsody is akin to opera. I knew what he was driving at, I didn't agree but at least he seemed to be a bit nearer the mark than Eliza. :-)

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 03:56 PM

Taken in the way you put it, Steve, you are right. Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen is about as far from folk as you get. You are taking it out of context like others before though. The quote is

"To me, Ariana Grande is folk music. Bohemian Rhapsody is folk. I define folk as whatever you can sing in a pub – and for people to be able to join in and be as shit as you like. "

Eliza was railing against the perceived white middle class snobbery image that folk has acquired in some circles. Justified or not. Her choice of examples may have been poor but I like the boldness of "whatever you can sing in a pub". Not sure if I entirely agree but "join in and be as shit as you like" is something that is often missing in some circles.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 04:56 PM

I'm a simple soul, Dave, and I read it that she regards Bohemian Rhapsody as folk. She went on to say that folk is anything you can sing in a pub. Well I can't remotely imagine anyone in a pub giving Bohemian Rhapsody a decent shot. Bad choice, maybe, as you say. I also don't think that the vast majority of people like being shit. A bit raucous after a few and a bit devil-may-care doesn't equate to being as shit as you like. I suppose some people would regard Shane Pogue's singing, when at his peak, as shit. Well I think he's sublime, both in his songs and in his delivery. The point being is that there's room for scholarly stuff in folk music and there's room for having a bloody good time down the pub, and there's no need to over-analyse the latter. Parenthetically, you just might expect to see the president of the EFDSS being just a tad scholarly - or maybe not. Maybe she's being refreshing (see, you've got me thinking here, Dave!). But nothing about this disappoints me. In a sense, I think she's right to blow open the rather sanctimonious and happiness-free attitudes of "the purists." As I said, I didn't go to play music every Friday night for 30 years to not have fun, and, well, the odd Buddy Holly song didn't grate...

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 22 - 06:28 PM

I think we sort of agree on most of that. I'm sure many won't :-)

I'm looking forward to her new album anyway

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 04:25 AM

And you must admit that it is nice to be able to voice these opinions without having your words twisted or being flamed by someone who is so insecure in their opinions that they insist that they are the only correct ones!

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 04:31 AM

That made me laugh Dave. I think that most posters think that their opinions are correct. Where some struggle is that they cannot understand that others will have different opinions.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 05:12 AM

Agreed again Rain Dog - I obviously have opinions and have stated them here and elsewhere. I understand that they are just opinions and while I believe them correct at the time I am always willing to listen to others. And then explain why they are wrong :-D

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 05:49 AM

Cloughie, on occasions when a player disagreed with him on tactics:

"I ask him which way that he thinks it should be done. We get down to it, then we talk about it for 20 minutes and decide that I was right."

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 22 - 05:17 PM

I had a pleasant phone conversation with Eliza, she explained in detail how she had been misquoted.
This is my 4th post only

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 22 - 12:30 PM

I left this discussion for over 2 days, if i do not post, I am not responsible for other peoples trolling or their poor behaviour.
people have to take responsibilty for their own actions, i am not responsible for other posters, particularly if i have not contributed for 2 days

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 06:38 AM

So what did Eliza actually say then, Dick?

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 10:08 AM

I had a conversation which lasted 45 minutes, but if you think I am going to relate A PRIVATE CONVERSATION on a public forum you are mistaken, I listened , and I am in no doubt she was misquoted, you will have to take my word for it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 10:32 AM

Perhaps it would have been better if that conversation had taken place, and any misunderstandings and mis-quotes cleared up, before beginning tHis thread with two pejorative posts?

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 11:07 AM

You're just messing around, Dick.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 05:59 PM

If you send me any more private messages like that one, Dick, I won't hesitate to publish it. You can't just hide behind protocol to say whatever you like. Cheers.

Subject: RE: EFDSS President Article
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 10:40 PM

Dick, you're out of control. Get over it.