BS: translations from across the pond

Subject: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM

I just read a mystery by English author Cynthia Harrod-Eagles. (born, educated and living in London.) The book, 'Body Line,' is rife with local expressions. I can't call them English, because one character is Irish. I invite explanations and comment.

(I'm American.) I'm going to capitalize the words new to me, but feel free to expound on others. This is quite a few, but the book has to go back today.

Here's the first batch:

1. Display one woman's photograph in your room when you were Furgling another.

2. Ah, she's a Culchie!

3. She Sharpened. "You seem to know an awful lot about me."

4. We don't all have a Hooter like yours.

5. I'm going to have an Ancnoc. Fancy one?

6. ...might not be a Blair-type fortune. (Does this refer to Tony Blair, the former PM?)

7. to aim the key and Plip the door open. (How cute!)

8. there was this nice Owl me-dad sort of feller, grey hair and specs.

9. Being both Geezers to the core, they did not notice the sad poetry of the place. (geezer here must not mean 'withered old man' as it does for me, since the men are young. What does it mean?)

10. I'll get the Gubbins, you do the malts.

11. His old game of Ringing. (some kind of crime)

12. Rogers wasn't an Orthopod. (Nor a gastropod, I'm sure.)

13. Fiestas and Focuses and even a couple of MPV's. (presumably not Most Valuable Players)

14. one of a long line of legal Beagles. (Gosh. We say 'legal eagles'!)

15. Earl Grey (tea) or Builder's?

16. "Lovely old gal, the Wendover." (a boat)

He pronounced it like the Buckinghampshire town. Slider (a cop)..wondered whether the makers of the Dodgers had realized that and taken the line of least resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:57 PM

Well leeneia (hello there!), a hooter is your nose. Was it 'me-owl-dad' by any chance? That would be 'My old dad'. Ringing is car crime, involving cloning cars with false number plates. Gubbins is stuff, eg I'll get the stuff, or things. A Geezer is a man (of any age) who is down-to-earth and not given to profound thought. Builder's tea would be strong, black and basic. Earl Grey is flowery and feminine.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:03 PM

MPV means Multi-Purpose Vehicle. Furgling normally means fumbling in your pocket (eg for keys) but in this case I suspect it means 'having a fumble with another lady!' Orthopod is someone who practices orthopedics (ie bone specialist) Ancnoc is a single-malt whiskey.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:04 PM

Oh, and Culchie is (I think) a person from a very rural part of Ireland. My mum was one of those!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:48 PM

I assume "She sharpened" means her tone got sharper".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 05:14 PM

Me again! A plip key is usually used on your car, for central locking (by pressing the button on the key).

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 05:33 PM

I think Culchie, from the apparent tone here, would rather mean a would-be cultured person who ostentatiously takes pride in being so ~~ short for "culture-vulture", a put-down term for what might be called also an intellectual snob.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 05:49 PM

In Ireland, a 'Culchie' is a country person.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:02 PM

5. 'Ancnoc' might be someone's way of saying 'egg nog' - a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: JennieG
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 06:55 PM

Himself and I have just read that book and enjoyed it immensely - it was quite humourous, for a police novel! On my next library visit I shall see if they have more books by that author.

13. Fiestas and Focuses are both Ford cars, and MPVs are those large things (not SUVs, that's another breed) that can fit several people in at once - sort of like a mini minibus, if you get my drift. People movers, they are called.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:32 PM

autolycus, ancnoc is a scotch whisky, as posted by Eliza.
See their website,
http://www.ancnoc.com

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 10:31 PM

I see you've already received interpretations for many of these expressions. When I come across an expression I don't understand in a book, I google the word or phrase and often find the meaning that way.Sometimes I might google the word and England or the word and Australia, etc. If I'm reading a particularly difficult book, I sometimes read it while sitting near my computer.

From my first trip to the UK: Conductor on the overnight train from London to Edinburgh asked if he should Knock Us Up in the morning. Knowing it couldn't mean what it means in the US, I looked at my English friend and asked her what she thought. She said yes. When we were alone she explained it meant "wake us up" and looked shocked then laughed when I explained that in the US it meant "get pregnant."

My friend's mother was doing laundry and asked if my Flannel Wanted Boiling. I knew that Wanted meant "needed" but the other words confused me. She was wondering if she should literally boil my washcloth to clean it. (I said, "Only if you are doing everyone else's.)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 12:24 AM

If anyone wants to know slang, just google 'The Dictionary of English Slang and Colloquialisms.' One of several, including one specifically for Americans!

The Wendover may be a narrowboat, named after a branch off the Grand Union Canal.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: autolycus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:50 AM

Thanks Q.

My error shows the kind of way spurious interpretations of words, phrases and idioms with unknown origins can arise.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 04:23 AM

I think reading that would irritate me quite a bit, as a numbeer of those expressins are new to me, just outside South London. It reminds me of reading Stephen Donaldson, who had a number of unusual words, always used in the same context, so there was no way of deducing the meaning fram varying uses. This being before search engines, I made a list and hied me down to the local library reference section. Most of the list was not in the 20 volume Oxford dictionary. They were in Webster, often marked archaic. I was pleased to find a 2 volume Webster in a second hand shop, though haven't needed it since. I don't like books that hold me up by imposing unusual language on me.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 10:14 AM

Very good so far! Now what about the dodgers (16), the Blair-type fortune, and the legal beagle? Do y'all actually say legal beagle, or is that a typo?

For me, the Dodgers are a baseball team, formerly in Brooklyn NY and now somewhere else.

For me, an orthopod would be an orthopedic surgeon. I suppose an MPV would be a 'sport-utility vehicle,' which is quite a mouthful, I admit. It's the kind of phrase that only an auto dealer would use.

I'm sure that the Irish definition of culchie is the correct one for this book. 'Country person' is the correct term. Is it a negative term or not?

Interesting thought: I tried to think of an American term for country person which is not negative, and I couldn't do it.
Let's See: rube, hick, hillbilly, clodhopper, shit-kicker.   Even 'farmer' can be derogatory if said the right way. Many neutral terms are old-fashioned, such as land-dweller and swain. Interesting.

Recently we had a thread about a chap on the BBC who was lamenting that British English was being consumed by American. It is obviously not the case.

Hi, Penny. I know what you mean. Another author who does that is Reginald Hill. I've taken to pencilling definitions in the margins of his books to help future readers.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:06 AM

if its to do with the music business - it might be a Blur type fortune. Blur - A pop group who made a lot of money.

Jammy Dodgers are an English biscuit.

legal beagle. A beagle is a dog. a dog favoured by the upper classes as a hunting dog. Probably some element of disrespect is implied.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:32 AM

Dodgers are canvas covers that protect the entrance to a boat from getting water in. (Like a hood, a bit like those you can stretch over a car) Sometimes called 'spray dodgers'.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:39 AM

Legal beagle is quite commonly used here. More so I think than 'legal eagle'.
Quite agree that pedantic authors, or ones whose text is too liberally littered with obscure or unintelligible words, are a bit tiresome. I like an author who draws me in to the world they describe. But on the other hand, you do learn a lot and expand your vocab, if that's what you want.
Having said all that, I confess that at the moment, I'm reading Enid Blyton's St Clare's school stories!!! Very 'jolly hockey sticks', a fascinating insight into boarding school life in the thirties. I'm going senile I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 12:11 PM

Of course I know that a beagle is a kind of dog. Good grief.

Here's another one from a different book:

17. An RIB was just offshore, rocking in the waves...

A rollocking --------- boat?
The Royal Institute for Buoys?

What might an RIB be?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 12:19 PM

Beagles were hunting dogs therfore sometimes used by victorian and edwardian police to follow trails hence legal beagle later transfered to lawyers.

s for the blair referance Blairs fortune

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 01:25 PM

RIB = Rigid Inflatable Boat.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:08 PM

Recipe for "Builders Tea"!

Make double strength tea in a large enamel teapot or kettle. Toss in a heavy metal object i.e. horseshoe, or large steel chisel.

If the metal object sinks.....ADD MORE TEA!

And for the sake of self preservation NEVER wash the cups. They are supposed to be dark brown inside. It adds flavour.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: autolycus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:24 PM

Fwiw, when I was 7 I tried to read Robinson Crusoe, original version. I kept having to resort to the dictionary often and gave up quite quickly.

I returned to it when I was about 14, and pretty much sailed thru the book.

There may be a moral in there somewhere. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 02:30 PM

autolycus, you're quite right! We were forced to read The Knight's Tale (from The Canterbury Tales) at twelve. If I say it starts "Whilom as olden stories tellen us, There was a Duk that heighte Theseus..." you can imagine the yawns. They should have given us The Miller's Tale. At least it's rude!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 03:39 PM

An orthopod is an orthopedist, my sports-loving son tells me. Easily mixed up with orthoptera.

Nevill Coghill did a good job of putting The Canterbury Tales in modern English. A Penguin book which can be found for a dollar at many used book stores.
Read it alongside a 'Tales' in the original, and you will soon grasp a good deal of the old language.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 05:08 PM

Thanks for the help on legal beagle, RIB and Blair's fortune.

A rigid, inflable boat, eh? The villainess (a former real-estate agent now an official in the European Union) was going to put to sea in that and escape her murderous deeds.

The only question is, who was more stupid, the inspector who questioned such a person unarmed and without backup or the villainess who would entrust her life to an RIB on a stormy sea?

Don, I loved your recipe.

Eliza, I sympathize. Chaucer for 12 Y-O's? Absurd!

My husband brought home CD's where the Canterbury Tales were read aloud, and they were very easy to understand.   Trouble is, there was no way to skip ahead, and they insisted on reading every passage, so matter how long-winded. I grasped the advantage of listening rather than reading, but I lost interest.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 05:22 PM

RIB used to be RBI, the word order has changed. They have a rigid glass-fibre bottom and inflatable sides. Sometimes interpreted here as Rescue Inflatable Boat, used by surf-rescue people. Which have an non-rigid bottom, to add confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 05:28 PM

When I come across an expression I don't understand in a book, I google the word or phrase and often find the meaning that way.

But it's more entertaining to ask us at the Mudecat. And you're more likely to get the right answer, in among the occasional wrong uns.

As for "I don't like books that hold me up by imposing unusual language on me", I'd advise sticking to your own preferred dialect if that's how you feel, Penny. Of course that's most of the world's literature out of reach.

Culchie can be either a putdown or a term of pride, depends whose using it. Or something in between. Like a lot of other words used that way. But use with caution.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:21 PM

re Chaucer, I 'did' him later at University, and adored the Tales, I relished looking up the more obscure words, and the flavour of his age fascinated me. It was just that, at twelve, I was far too young. I wonder how many young people are put off great literature by having it thrust upon them at too early an age?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:47 PM

Don't be silly, McGrath. Penny is obviously cultivated and literate. There are a occasional authors who delight in using words which have been used only a few times in the course of history, and Penny has every right to be irritated at their posing.

Reginald Hill, for instance. One day he said a woman's breasts were (something like) pepomnemonic. I tracked it down, and it means 'reminding one of a goard.'

How have we functioned all these years without that word?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:59 PM

RBI- baseball, Runs Batted In.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:21 PM

I suppose an MPV would be a 'sport-utility vehicle,'

No. A Multi Purpose Vehicle. I think a people carrier is another name used for them over here.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:22 PM

Something like this I think.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:40 PM

You can't help but wonder if Americans understand us at all when they come to visit our country.

They must really find us strange. I suppose we know what they mean, because we have lots of American TV programmes over here.

Perhaps we should speak more slowly. Perhaps learn accompanying hand gestures and simple mimes. Point at pictures, that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:59 PM

Please, no one mention the shooting brake!

Hand gestures- I was taught only foreigners used them, and I had my hands slapped a couple of times.
Watch broadcasts and I think you will see many more used on UK and continental TV than on the American.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: JennieG
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 02:21 AM

When Himself and I have visited Canada and the US we have learnt to speak slowly and always say "g'day" first, to alert the person to whom we are speaking that we are Aussies - we all speak the same language, but the accents that language is spoken in can be unfamiliar!

Cheers, and g'day
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: autolycus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:24 AM

"You can't help but wonder if Americans understand us at all when they come to visit our country."

More, I think, we don't know what they do understand, don't understand, or what they think they understand.


And vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 12:11 PM

I like seeing people use hand gestures on the mobile while they are going along.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 02:29 PM

"You can't help but wonder if Americans understand us at all..."

I discussed 16 words out of a 250-page book. Hardly a big communications breakdown.
==========
I find myself using hand gestures and body language more than I ever used to. My peers are getting older and the young are getting denser, and there are more foreigners in my life than before. So for all these reasons, I need my hands to communicate.

When I say 'the young are getting denser,' I'm referring to those who were plopped in front of a screen (TV, video game, computer, whatever) at a young age and have rarely spoken a sentence with more than seven words in it. Like my great-nephew, age 16, that I met after a long time. If I asked him a direct question, he would stare at his shoes and give me a one or two-word answer.

"You like music? I do too. What do you play?"

"Guitar"

"What kind of music do you play?"

"Some songs."

"How do you do it? Do you follow the chords?"

"Yeah"

Somebody get this kid an intellect!
============
It is true that people with different dialects need to speak a bit more slowly to one another. It really helps.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 03:25 PM

Good English on the BBCNews channel. When I was in UK last, I found many speaking good English.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 04:22 PM

GUEST, with respect, your great-nephew aged sixteen doesn't need an intellect, he needs some manners. One of my neighbours has a similar child of 9. This girl thinks it's acceptable to answer everything with a grunt. ("How was school today?" "Ugh" "Are you going swimming this evening?" "Ugh" etc etc.) I finally decided to be blunt with her. I said "If you can only grunt at me, I don't want to talk to you any more. Cheerio!" and went indoors. I don't bother with her any more.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 06:19 PM

Thank you leenia. Mind you, I do have a college report not intended for my eyes describing me as widely read but not deeply!

I don't mind the occasional word I haven't already met, but I do like its meaning to be clear from context. I wouldn't have got through Tolkein, would I? Or geology texts. I can't remember any of the Donaldson words, as I haven't met them anywhere else since. I think in his case it was the result of his autodidactic education, as he was in an isolated situation on a mission station, and may well have taught himself out of books, including Webster. I don't think he knew the words were not going to be recognisable to most readers.
He used them like Homer's epithets, or Viking kennings. As in Odysseus of the many devices. If a writer in English insisted on writing Odysseus polymechan everytime, without access to a lexicon, you wouldn't know whether that word meant longhaired, loudspoken, shortlegged, sharpshooter or whatever. If you could deduce things about Odysseus from elsewhere in the story, you might make a good guess. If the word was used for someone else with similar characteristics, you could build on that. If you knew a bit about language, and could guess the poly was many, and mechan might have something to do with machinery, you could make a stab at it. Wrongly. though for a king he does seem to have been good at DIY. But if you didn't, and he only used that word to describe Odysseus, and Odysseus only, and never described his behaviour in any other way, you'd be sunk. And I was with Donaldson.
Not the only one, either. See this page. Donaldson's wordhoard The word roynish, given no meaning on that page, is the one which led to that passage above. It's something nasty, but exactly what. I have no idea. I did know some of the other words listed, through reading Malory, geology and a few other things. The quoted passage does raise a question about the state of the writer's mind. A bit Coleridge and de Quincey, that.
Another writer who laid linguistic traps for the reader was Dorothy L Sayers, who stuck Greek texts into her novels, which were integral to the plot. And did not provide translations. I can't believe she didn't realise that most people at her time could not even decipher the alphabet.
This is totally different from dealing with writers who coin words, who usually explain what they mean. I remember Andre Norton carefully describing an animal on a different planet. I can't remember the name, or what it looked like, because by the time she had finished describing a small furry herbivorous animal which lived in communities in burrows, and bred rapidly, I was thinking rabbit, and I went on thinking rabbit all the way through the book. The word didn't get in the way of reading, because the meaning was there.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 10:09 PM

If you are referring to Stephen Donaldson, he received his degree from the College of Wooster, which largely explains the 'arcane' language of his novels.
His writing is reminiscent of the volumes published in the period 1880-1920, aimed at an Upper Class audience; at the time, university graduates would at the least retain a vocabulary including some Greek and Latin words if not the ability to read bits of the writings in those classic languages. The travel literature of the time will exercise even the erudites' skill.

I object to your characterization of the work of Dorothy L. Sayers, and her excellent novels (directed toward an educated audience, leaving the lower orders to Beatrix Potter).
I have been meaning to read her translation of Dante's "Divine Comedy," but I would probably revert back to the the Lord Peter Wimsey stories.

My education and experience at an American university , lacking the refinement to be gained at Cambridge or Oxford or College of Wooster, would leave me unable to hold forth at high table. I am confident that Donaldson would be quite acceptable.

(Wooster students, pay no attention; but the name does invoke thoughts of Bertie Wooster)

Digression- listen to Hugh Laurie, as Bertie Wooster, sing "Forty-Seven Ginger-Headed Sailors." Worth a genteel chuckle or two.
Ginger Headed Sailors

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 03:34 AM

Beatrix Potter uses a far wider vocabulary than many writers whose work is intended for small children. When my daughter was about five years old she complained about this, until I pointed out that she would never learn new words if she only heard the ones she already knew. She immediately accepted this and has been learning new words ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:15 AM

Q, I did not say that I did not like or value the works of Dorothy L Sayers, which I do, but I do feel there was a fault in assuming the knowledge of a language taught to few in the country at the time. It can make the reader feel that their ignorance (for which they bear no blame) is seen as something of a fault in them. There is a trace of that in your comments, is there not? Classics was, and is, a very small part of what happens in education. Its place in the modern world could be argued. I did science.
Oddly, I do not find Victorian writing or Edwardian writing difficult in the same way, in fact, revel in the complex sentences and syntax. I thnk that where the language is used as the writer used it in everyday life, it is much more comprehensible than where it is not - and I doubt if Donaldson mixed with people who talked like his books.
As for Potter, I so remember that "the effect of lettuce is soporific" (no longer, due to modern breeding). But the meaning was obvious in the story.
I was very interested to discover several pages devoted to Donaldson's vocabulary. I was not the only one with lists and extra dictionaries... And I should point out that if the work was not seen as worth the effort, there would have been none of that at all. And no further purchases of his books.
The worst example I have ever seen of the use of words to obfuscate an issue was a thesis on the aetiology of illiteracy. Any random page did not look like English, but had a pattern resembling Latin. It used so many Latinate and Hellenic words that there were no little linking words, no prepositions or what we had to teach as connectives, as they were all contained within the polysyllabic terms. It started right from the abstract and page 1, no explanation of terms, and the meaning impossible to extract without that large dictionary. I don't know how the friend who showed it to me, who was supposed to be referring to it for a Diploma in Education, managed to do so. I don't know how the author managed to write it. I can only assume it to have been a way of fitting his ideas (I assume he, maybe wrong about that) into the strict word limit. I learned the word aetiology from it. Otherwise, zilch. It did raise the question of where illiteracy lies when the written word somehow fails to communicate anything of value. Obviously, neither Sayers nor Donaldson can be faulted in this way.
You used the word "arcane". That is defined as "requiring secret knowledge to be understood; mysterious; esoteric", or "known or understood by only a few". Precisely my complaint about it. Language is supposed to communicate, not exclude.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 03:48 PM

I must admit I responded with tongue in cheek, but yes, Donaldson's readers revel in the arcane, hence his popularity and awards for his writing.
His readers undoubtedly feel a sense of superiority over those who fail to appreciate his language. Some would call this a form of snobbery (which it is) but it is also human nature.

I get the Journal of American Folklore, primarily because I want to use their archive, but I have to admit that I seldom read the articles. Your remarks about the paper on the (a)etiology of illiteracy could apply to much in these articles.

I haven't read Donaldson's books, but that is because I prefer other subject matter. Perhaps I would bog down too- dunno.

Digression- I am reminded (my mind wanders) of the response to the first sections of "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco. They have much on 14th c. religion and monasticism, a complex subject foreign but to a few. Once asked why he prefaced a good tale with that he jokingly replied that it was a penance to be performed before proceding.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:15 PM

Funny, I didn't notice any problem with Eco, not with Rose or Foucult's Pendulum. I think I rather like being introduced to new milieus, and have grown to prefer them to be based in reality, rather than imagination, though I can remember in my youth haunting a SciFi shop hungering for new worlds. (Then I started to find out that what I had thought were strange and inventive landscapes were somewhere in California. It's like finding out the author has plagiarised someone.)

Since you own to not having read Donaldson, I'll own to having stopped after three. I didn't really like the characters. There was a gap in publication, and by the time the new ones came out I just couldn't be bothered. I haven't ever met anyone who is a fan, so I don't know about the superiority aspect. I have met that type though. Usually over aware of their own high IQ.

I used British spelling of the study of the causes of, of course. The Greek in that case is a useful word in its place, but in a lot of others being able to string together a phrase which makes meaning clear is one of the things that makes English, wherever it is used, or however it is spelled, such a useful and flexible language. Of course, if one is bound by a word limit, it is less so.

I think in writing it would help to fit the vocabulary to the observer in the book, as well as to the reader. Alan Garner in "The Weirdstone of Brisingamen", and George MacDonald in the Curdie books both describe goblin creatures without using words which hide their meaning, and are very effective. The characters who meet the creatures would not have eaten any dictionaries.

11.15 pm, and I think I need some old fashioned lettuce.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: translations from across the pond
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 12:39 AM

Thank you for Forty Seven Ginger Headed Sailors!

I'm from Pittsburgh where we say things like:

"Yinz need to redd up in here. There's gum bands all over the floor."

"Watch it, the sidewalk is slippy."

"The lady next door is a real neb."

"Watch out for them jaggers on the rosebush."

Many of these expressions are from Scots dialect. But people named Kowalsky or DePasquale use them.