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Chords in Folk?
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 22 May 08 - 01:11 PM You are twisting peoeple's words again, WAV. I'm quite certain that DS wasn't talking about manufacturing. Love how you tell people what they ment. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: TheSnail Date: 22 May 08 - 01:19 PM Me Who is "we" in this context, Volgadon?" GUEST,Volgadon Anyone that isn't part of the 'tradition'. As much as I love Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, etc., I won't kid myself, I'm not part of that. Since I don't seem to be getting my point over, I'd better spell it out. When a song is collected, it is already known to the person it was collected from. It is known to others in their community. It was known by the person they learnt it from and possibly had been for many generations before that. It doesn't suddenly become traditional because someone outside the community collected it. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 22 May 08 - 01:22 PM But I was talking about manufacturing in that quote of mine, Volgadon. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 22 May 08 - 01:28 PM Snail, I'm not saying that it wasn't traditional, my definition only applies to WAV's argument that songs with a known author can't be trad. How do we, those of us on this forum, in 2008, know what was trad? Someone collected or noted them down. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 22 May 08 - 01:44 PM "WAV's argument that songs with a known author can't be trad"...I stand by that, Volgadon. And, for another e.g., Ewan MacColl's songs will never be trad. - because (C), (P), modern technology, etc., will not allow the fact that they are his to be forgotten, even if some mistakenly think they are singing a trad. song or don't show due respect. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 02:00 PM It is my unlearned opinion that Walkaboutsverse doesn't know what he's talking about, and I concur with the poster, Ruth Archer, more listening and less talking, on your part, wouldn't go amiss. How does that old saying go? Better to be silent and appear to be a complete fool, than to open one's mouth and have it confirmed. I think we know which way you've gone, Walkaboutsverse |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 22 May 08 - 02:40 PM Hollow words, DS. - addressed to someone with 4 tech. certificates and a major in anthropology, with distinctions. I just watched, and read all the subtitles to, a Scottish Gaelic BBC TV programme on Alan Lomax - who did NOT say that those trained in anthropology should stay out of the folk scene. You are deluding yourself. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 02:52 PM Indeed..addressed to someone with 4 tech. certificates and a major in anthropology, with distinctions. Funny you should say that Walkaboutsverse, I was thinking, only the the other day about how some of the brightest, most aware people, I have ever met have never spent a day inside a college or university, conversely some of the stupidest people I've ever met have degrees and certificates coming out of their ears. (there are exceptions of course) Nothing quite matches actual experience out there on the road.Gigging is what I'm talking about, night after night on the grind. Eliza Carthy and her parent can tell you all about that, indeed many Mudcatters can probably tell you tales of the road, that would make your hair curl, not that you'd listen, hiding there behind your 4 tech. certificates and a major in anthropology, with distinctions. Try gigging for 10 or 12 years then some back and tell us ALL about it, until then, Better to be silent and appear to be a complete fool, than to open one's mouth and have it confirmed |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 May 08 - 03:08 PM Having a BA in humanities with a major in anthropology does not make you a trained anthropologist. While DS is right, let's not forget that there are also people who contribute to Mudcat who have got some seriously impressive post-grad qualifications, as well as having specifically studied folk song and culture. But somehow, they don't feel compelled to mention these things in every post. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: M.Ted Date: 22 May 08 - 03:08 PM More TV--and presumably, more instant soup--there are a few people here who actually knew and worked with Mr. Lomax, lots of people who have studied his books, and lots more who have listened studiously to his recordings, and a bunch of people who have learned how to play and sing music that he collected--that's what it's about here-- So diid you listen to the music clips? What did you think? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 03:24 PM Ruth Archer said, they don't feel compelled to mention these things in every post. Well funny you should say that, I have ;-D..... nope, not going to give Walkaboutsverse the satisfaction, suffice to say I have a couple of relevant qualifications. While we're at it, lets not forget some more of the real heroes, those that work behind the scenes to make the festivals, concerts and competitions happen, so you, Walkaboutsverse, can enter them, that's real work and frustration, putting them together. The educators, those that go out and remind people of the music, who go into the classrooms and show children what it's all about , regardless of their countries of origin. I love multicultural societies, particularly in England, it adds SO much to the country ; don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: TheSnail Date: 22 May 08 - 03:30 PM GUEST,Volgadon Snail, I'm not saying that it wasn't traditional, my definition only applies to WAV's argument that songs with a known author can't be trad. How do we, those of us on this forum, in 2008, know what was trad? Someone collected or noted them down. OK, I sort of see your point, it's just that the way you said it, you seemed to be saying that being collected defined something as traditional especially when you followed it up by saying that a song that hadn't been collected was "Unknown" when it must obviously have been very well known to some people. As to the point you are making, I fear you are falling into the trap of "If WAV says it, it must be wrong." I consider traditional as something collected. By your reasoning, if Joseph Taylor or Walter Pardon sang something by a known author, it isn't traditional? For an opinion on that, see here. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: The Sandman Date: 22 May 08 - 03:30 PM walkabout take this,Willie of the Winsbury without any melody,ALL CHORDS,hope you like it http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=1889&Path=willieofwinsbury2.mp3 |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 22 May 08 - 03:44 PM I only mention my CV in my defence, when such terms as "fool" DS are used against me, rather than discussing what I've actually posted - and if you check back, you DID do that. I said "trained in anthropology" Ruth - and that's a fact (I was, for the record, offered a post grad. place, but turned it down). To M.TED: it was mostly people (Gaels) talking about his visit, with a few snippets - but I have heard a lot of suchlike on Gaelic radio, which I've enjoyed. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 03:56 PM No, Walkaboutsverse YOU constantly mention your CV..oh I did read back..I was making a general observation using the phrase, only YOU would try and turn something back on another person as has been noted already and not just by me. and what you've actually posted has no basis in any reality I know of, and as I HAVE already stated you've made various claims that are unsubstantiatable. Again, try listening to others instead of your own voice, you just might learn something |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 03:58 PM Captain many thanks for that link, a very good rendition indeed, and it's all chords...ooops did I say that? ;-D |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 22 May 08 - 04:05 PM I have been "listening", DS...and, back to Chords in Folk?, did anyone bother checking this sean-nos, which I posted above. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 04:16 PM Using Wikipedia to try and prove an academic point regarding is not a good idea, to put it mildly. It's reliability in many areas is questionable at best. Besides which this (Sean-nos) but ONE tradition. I hope you're not attempting what I think you're attempting (using sean-nos to somehow "prove" that chords don't exist in folk music) |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 May 08 - 04:22 PM "I only mention my CV in my defence, when such terms as "fool" DS are used against me," And if you think a BA in humanities with a major in anthropology makes you an expert on folk song, and more qualified to pronounce on it than others here (which is most certainly what you have implied), you deserve the epithet of fool. There are people here with qualifications in ethnomusicology, for heaven's sake, who have studied English folk song extensively. In any case, and regardless of your qualifications, many of your assertions are highly suspect from an academic point of view. When you did your degree, did you not have to prove some level of research for your theses? Did you not have to provide a reliable range of sources? In posing some of your theories here, you provide maybe one piece of evidence to represent an entire national body of work (ie, one recording of Joseph Taylor means this is the way everyone sang). Very poor. See me after class. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 04:26 PM Oh, oh...Walkaboutsverse has been called to the beek's office :-D |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Ed Date: 22 May 08 - 04:27 PM Every contributor to this thread, apart from himself, thinks that WAV is talking bollocks. Why can't we just agree that, and agree to ignore him? Is there any gppd reason to keep this thread active? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: glueman Date: 22 May 08 - 04:49 PM Does the title imply that non-polyphonic note formations are inherently folkish? By that token the cheesiest bluegrass tune would qualify by virtue of staccato right hand plucking whatever fancy shapes the left hand was making. Or does rapidity blur the boundaries, the aural equivalent of persistence of vision? Can an angel dance in the gaps? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 04:57 PM This MIGHT (though I doubt it) be of interst to Walkaboutsverse, writtn by non other than the esteemed Mr. John Kirkpatrick What English Folk Music by John Kirkpatrick |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 22 May 08 - 05:37 PM Some of the links on this never-dead thread, DS, have been new to me, but not the one you just posted - I read it a couple of years ago, and, for what it's worth, agree with JK on some things. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 May 08 - 05:43 PM Just as well - JK does more for folk music just by getting out of bed in the mornings than you would achieve in a multitude of lifetimes, WAV. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 05:53 PM An amazing performer, Ruth, I've seen him a number of times, both alone and with various others. I'll very likely be down to London on 18th October for the ceilidh at Cecil Sharp House with JK and Mr. Gubbins' Bicycle |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 22 May 08 - 06:17 PM "It's a bit more than 'two weeks' into folk for me Don - it was 4 years ago that I first turned up at a folk club, and a year later I started playing recorders and keyboards, and learning those beloved single-line melodies that English folk music, at least, is mostly, NOT all, about." It's all relative, WAV. So you've been at it for four years, have been attending folk clubs, and for three years playing single line melodies on a recorder (now, playing two lines on one recorder—now that's virtuosity!) and hunt-and-pecking on a keyboard. Good for you! I used to hear Alan Lomax ("American School of the Air") on the radio when I was a kid, listened to Burl Ives on the radio ("The Wayfaring Stranger") when I was a teenager, saw Susan Reed in a movie in 1948 ("Glamour Girl"—lousy movie, good singing by Susan). I started actively learning folk songs (American and British Isles) and bought my first guitar in 1952 (you do the math), and I've been at it ever since. In addition to majoring in English Literature and Music in college, I studied folk balladry (Child ballads and the compilations of other collectors, along with field recordings), from Dr. David C. Fowler (A Literary History of the Popular Ballad, Duke University Press, 1968, plus a number of books on medieval scholarship). In 1958, I was asked to do a television series on what is now the local PBS affiliate entitled "Ballads and Books," sponsored by the Seattle Public Library. This series was followed by other television appearances, concerts, "hootenannies," folk festivals, and when not thus engaged, I sang regularly in clubs and coffeehouses. I addition to academic papers I have written in school, I have had some seventeen articles on various aspects of traditional song published in music magazines amd journals. In my various perambulations I've met, talked with, and sometimes swapped songs with well-known performers and personalities in the folk music field, including four Seegers, Pete, Peggy, Mike, and patriarch and ethnomusicologist, Charles Seeger. I knew Sandy Paton (founder of Folk-Legacy Records) when he lived in Seattle. A long list of recording artists such as Richard Dyer-Bennet, Joan Baez, Jean Redpath, and Theodore Bikel, plus scholars in the field like the aforementioned Charles Seeger, and folklorists Archie Green and Roger Abrahams. This is barely scratching the surface of my musical CV, but you get the idea. I have been at it for awhile and I believe I know quite a bit about folk music, it's history, and the manner in which it was and is performed. And I am most certainly not the only one here on Mudcat. There are those here whose knowledge and experience far exceeds my own. So, WAV, you are like a relatively new convert who is trying to preach, not to the congregation, not to the choir, but you are trying to explain theology to a large number of priests, vicars, ministers, rabbis, and imams. There is a story about a young man who wanted to know the meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything. He went to a well-known master and told him what he wanted to learn. But he explained to the master that he had already read a great deal and studied diligently. In fact, he told the old lama that he was quite proud of how much he had learned and was on the verge of explaining it to him in detail, when the lama said, "Let us have a cup of tea first." When the tea was made and the cups were set out, the lama pushed the pot toward the young man. The young man filled his cup. Then he pushed the pot back to the lama. The lama then took the pot and began to pour more tea into the young man's cup. It overflowed onto the table, but the lama kept pouring until it ran off the table into the lap of the young man's brand new monk's robe. The young man leaped up from the table and said, "What are you doing, you old fool?" The lama smiled benignly and said, "This is your first lesson, and I would have you go meditate on it." "My first lesson? What do you mean?" "You come to me already so full of knowledge that there is no room for you to learn anything more. Go and meditate." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 May 08 - 06:20 PM "An amazing performer, Ruth, I've seen him a number of times, both alone and with various others. I'll very likely be down to London on 18th October for the ceilidh at Cecil Sharp House with JK and Mr. Gubbins' Bicycle" Good news! And don't miss the Vaughan Williams event at CSH on the 4th of October, either! |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 May 08 - 06:23 PM Re: Don Firth's post: well said. There endeth the lesson. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 05:11 AM To Don Firth: so what do you call the chants, drums and flauting of Amerindians?..."traditional American music"? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 May 08 - 09:15 AM "...if that someone records it onto a C.D., Foolestroupe, the word "traditional" will/should appear next to its name" Wrong. If the author's name is written on that sheet of paper, then it is NOT 'traditional'... IT IS BY A KNOWN AUTHOR :-) ... even if it is also 'traditional... :-P |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 10:37 AM Bur the "..." context here is important as "that someone" was a hypothetical collector of a song of unknown authorship, if you look back, Foolestroupe. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 23 May 08 - 11:12 AM All this time quibbling over how to define what is, in effect, an entirely nebulous piece of conceptualisation, could be spent expanding our repertoires and sourcing (and polishing) the songs we already know. To this end I've just been blowing the cobwebs off Peter Bellamy's Abe Carmen; not the one as sung by Bert Lloyd on The Transports album, but the re-write he was forced to do when one producer thought the original somehow too jaunty for what was, essentially, a goodnight ballad. PB recorded this on the album he did for EFSDSS (Second Wind, 1985) but I believe these days it's largely forgotten as the original has been sung in subsequent productions. Traditional or not, it nevertheless has a splendid provenance, a known author who was a master of the traditional idiom, as evidenced by his settings of Rudyard Kipling, and is a killer piece of song-writing in itself. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 11:24 AM On that, Sedayne, it would be nice to be able to borrow either the Oxford or the Penguin books of English folk songs, but they were not within the system when I asked at the library. Mainly, I've used Mudcat's DigiTrad...but can anyone report on what those books are like - do they give both tune and chords, or just the tune, with the lyrics? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,John from Kemsing Date: 23 May 08 - 11:35 AM WAV, "Marrowbones" gives words, melody and chords. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 23 May 08 - 12:29 PM Mudcat's a good place to start but there are some alarming omissions; better still is to dig into the threads themselves, where one finds songs not included & some highly informed discussion on variants. The Penguin Book has been touched by the hand of Bert Lloyd and may not be all it pretends to be, but still an invaluable reference book. I would have though such a book would be a permanent fixture on the bookshelves of anyone with even a passing interest in traditional song. The songs are given with single-line melody, with a few examples of suggested accompaniment, but being musically illiterate (not out of choice, it's actually a form of dyslexia) this doesn't bother me in the slightest, tending as I do to source songs from singers & recordings, and effect my own accompaniments accordingly*. I believe there is a new edition, with EC on the cover, rather than the old dancing bear, but otherwise it's the same book. The deeper you dig the better it is, generally speaking. Scour the second-hand bookshops & flee-markets - there's some good book stalls at Tynemouth Station on a Saturday where I've picked up any amount of old ballad collections and stuff; Bob Copper's A Song for All Seasons for example and the invaluable Faber Book of Popular Verse. * Interesting perhaps in the context of this thread, is that whilst I do use a variety of instruments to accompany my performances, I rarely deviate from the melody of the song I'm singing, nor ever use chords as such. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 23 May 08 - 12:32 PM Don, a very well told tale indeed. There are those who need to pay attention to it. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 23 May 08 - 12:36 PM "Bob Copper's A Song for All Seasons " I recently picked this up at a library sale near where I live. I must admit my knowledge of The Coppers was minimal at best, but this book has opened up whole new vistas for me, so you see, Walkaboutsverse you can never know it all, you can never ever stop learning. Someone said to me once, to stop learning is to stop living. I believe that. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 12:41 PM Thanks for Tynemouth Station market, Sedayne, I'll try there sometime. I actually got Hymns Ancient and Modern from the Oxfam shop in Newcastle - so I no longer have to keep bothering the local library for that one. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 01:04 PM One of the likeable qualities of the late great Bob Copper, DS, is that he was secure in himself, and didn't get the urge to repeatedly take cheap-shots at someone. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 23 May 08 - 01:24 PM Oh, I am extremely secure in myself, boy, you, on the other hand seem to have this need to constantly remind people of your qualifications, your alleged accomplishments etc etc. You annoy me to no end, you are egotistical, you think yourself better and more qualified than anyone else here (which I assure you, you are not) As Ruth Archer has stated, there are those here with more than you can ever hope to have or hope to be and yet, they do not feel the need to brag about it. I would hazard a guess that your need to brag is itself rooted in insecurity, and you feel the need to pass what is in you off onto someone else. There is nothing cheap about what I say to you, I am, in fact, investing more than I think you're worth in what I do say. You'll never learn because you think you know it all already and because of that, and once more Ruth Archer has the right of it, you are plain and simply a fool, and bore. Dismissed. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 23 May 08 - 01:31 PM "To Don Firth: so what do you call the chants, drums and flauting of Amerindians?... 'traditional American music'?" First of all, Native American music is not my field of study, so I would leave the terminology to those whose field it is. Unless informed otherwise by someone qualified to speak on the subject, I would probably refer to it as "traditional Native American music." So what's your point in asking that question? Don Firth P. S. Not to put too fine a point on it, I try not to pontificate on subjects I know little about. I listen to those who do know. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 23 May 08 - 02:37 PM I looked at that link, TheSnail, I wasn't talking about music hall songs, but 'folk' songs, say something 18th century, with a known author. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer Date: 23 May 08 - 03:57 PM "And please note: this is my only discussion forum since getting locked out of Harvest Home owing to a technical glitch since we switched to Fire-Fox". Please come back, Sedayne! It's dull without you and we all feel terribly lonely. They let me in with Firefox... |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Snuffy Date: 23 May 08 - 04:12 PM From the Introduction by Vaughan-Williams and Lloyd to the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs We would like to give a few suggestions for singing the songs in this book. The ideal way to sing an English folk song, of course, is unaccompanied. Our melodies were made to be sung that way, and much of their tonal beauty and delightful suppleness comes from the fact that they have been traditionally free from harmonic or rhythmic accompaniment. They are best suited to stand on their own, and we rather agree with the Dorset countryman who commented on the professional singer of folk songs: 'Of course it's nice for him to have the piano when he's singing, but it does make it very awkward for the listener.' |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 04:54 PM So, without being stuffy, doesn't that, from Snuffy, bring us back to what I said about half way through this never dead thread - it's wrong to say that English traditional music is ALL about the tune; it's not wrong to say that it's MOSTLY about the tune?...but, frankly, I'm still not sure if I should record (some) of my own selection of E. trads with the single-line melody on keyboards..? But spare a thought for Sedayne - pulled from pillar to post/Mudcat to Harvest Home by adoring fans! |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 23 May 08 - 05:30 PM You're the only one that really cares, because when alls said and this really all about you isn't it? what you do, what you sing, what you think, your websites you twist others ideas around to make it sound like you thought of it, you twist other people's words around to make it sound like those people agree with you. "doesn't that, from Snuffy, bring us back to what I said about half way through this never dead thread? No it doesn't. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST Date: 23 May 08 - 06:30 PM but, frankly, I'm still not sure if I should record (some) of my own selection of E. trads with the single-line melody on keyboards..? As long as you record them, any way will do. You have a brilliant voice. It shines in the same way that your poetry does. Keep up the good work, and forget what everyone else says. You are the man! You may even be God! |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 23 May 08 - 06:51 PM it's wrong to say that English traditional music is ALL about the tune; it's not wrong to say that it's MOSTLY about the tune?. IMO, English traditional songs are MOSTLY about the words. However you do it, the chosen tune is a device to carry the words. With the dance music. I would say the rhythm is more than the melody itself (or possible accompaniment). fwiw and just my outlook: Re chords and harmonies, personally I don't see anything untraditional in using or not using them as you see right for the piece in question and as resources allow. I can't explain it but I'd suggest it really comes down to what you feel is in keeping and fits with that. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 23 May 08 - 07:23 PM 600 |
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