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BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____"
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Subject: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me $_____ From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Dec 12 - 11:58 AM It could range from $40 to $200 a month. Whether we tumble off of a sharply-delineated "Cliff" or slowly slide into a slump, there will be an impact with the next paycheck or two. If you're paid on December 31 for work performed in December you might have a month to wait for the impact, but I suspect a lot of us will see it begin next Tuesday on the Jan. 1 payday. There are two parts to this fiscal hit. The income tax part will mean a withholding tax at a rate that was typical in the 1990s, and there are fewer credits and interest deductions. The lower rates we have paid for the 10 or 12 years, whenever Dubya put it into effect, are what are called the "Bush-era tax cuts." He put them in place as a gift to his rich friends but as a sop gave the Average Joe a tax cut also (to get away with the one he really wanted to give millionaires.) In the Obama administration we have seen a lower withholding on the Social Security taxes, part of a stimulus move that was renewed once and now expires - in an increase in withholding from 4.2 to 6.2 percent. From U.S. News and World Report: So here's how the major aspects of the fiscal cliff are likely to affect ordinary people, assuming they go into effect beginning January 1, 2013: Also, there is that pesky Alternative Minimum Tax. Meant to get more tax from high-earning individuals, but somehow it is now in play for those with earnings as low as $34,000 or more. The italics are mine, to show that we'll have to wait and see when the higher income tax withholding begins. In my state when those amounts were about to shift in the last big standoff about 18 months ago, they withheld from my paycheck just to play it safe (that was before the social security withholding was extended.) All of this because the GOP wants to protect their very wealthy friends who earn so much they wouldn't know how to spend it all paycheck to paycheck. It's only fair that I lose about $200 a month so some rich guy doesn't have to pay more taxes. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:03 PM People to watch as the cliff approaches from the Washington Post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Jack the Sailor Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:10 PM I think that in the long run we would all be better off paying the higher taxes. Confidence in the US economy would rise, confidence in the government would stop falling. Investment would rise. Job numbers would improve. The worst thing is the uncertainty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: beardedbruce Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:17 PM " All of this because the GOP wants to protect their very wealthy friends who earn so much they wouldn't know how to spend it all paycheck to paycheck. It's only fair that I lose about $200 a month so some rich guy doesn't have to pay more taxes. " WRONG. All of this because Obama wants to have the wealthy pay many thousands more each month, while you pay a few hundred. The percentage impact on the wealthy of the "cliff" is greater than that on you. But by demanding the higher taxes, and NO decrease in spending, Obama has made it easier for the GOP to accept the taxes, AND get some spending cuts that Obama would not otherwise give. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Jack the Sailor Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:23 PM The percentage of disposable income impact is much much lower for the wealthy. Up to your income level it is the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: pdq Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:25 PM Democrats have the Presidency, the Senate and the News Media. The Republicans have the House, by a reasonable majority, but many of their members will not raise taxes at the $250K level, which actually hurts farmers and small business owners making $170K per/married couple. Those folks just ain't the "millionaires and billionaires" that Obama constantly rails against (=class warfare). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:31 PM Bruce, you don't make any sense, but that is typical. You drank the GOP koolaid and spout the party line. Amazing how they have convinced so many people to vote against their own self interest and dismiss an altruistic distribution of revenues to benefit all (for health care in particular - Medicaid for all would be a good start). The effect on me of proportional extra tax withholding is substantially different than if a rich person had to pay the same percentage of their salary to the IRS. The cuts the GOP will demand are the ones that affect lower income Americans. When those who haven't been paying close attention finally look at their upcoming paychecks, it may begin to dawn on them that something stinks, and it's coming from the Elephant House. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: pdq Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:40 PM Due to the asinine game called "baseline budgeting" which the Democrats instituted years ago, a 12% increase in a given departemnt may be called a 3% cut if they said they expected a 15% increase. If businessmen were as dishonest as the Federal goverment with money matters, they would be in prison. This Fiscal Cliff issue is a piece of theater and anyone who takes it at face value, as presented by the Washington Compost and the New York Slimes, both house organs of the Democrats, is either and extreme partisan or a fool. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Jack the Sailor Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM Do you "conservatives" ever think about the buzz phrases pumped into your hears before you spew them. Those folks just ain't the "millionaires and billionaires" that Obama constantly rails against (=class warfare). Here you both say that the people are not in a different class and that it is class warfare. I guess in your head it sounds reasonable. But from the outside it is gibberish. Also you are saying that a tax that is only on INCOME OVER 250 will "hurt people" making 170? By any sane measure it doesn't hurt people making 260,000 per year. Up to 250K they pay the same taxes, on the additional 10K they pay an additional $400. Please explain exactly how this is "Hurt?" Losing a leg in a war is "hurt" getting COPD from sleeping in a box is hurt. Having your take home pay go from $200,000 to 199,600 is not even an inconvenience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:43 PM The president is ready to sign a bill... The Senate will more than likely pass a bill... The GOP House probably won't let a bill to even be voted on... Do the math, bb... Dems 2 GOP 0 B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Jack the Sailor Date: 28 Dec 12 - 12:44 PM hears>> heads |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Dec 12 - 01:17 PM Another aspect of the "cliff:" Death and (estate) taxes sometimes go together John Carney, CNBC.com 28 December 2012 Because the "fiscal cliff" will not stop for death, it looks as if death's carriage may make a "kindly" stop to pick up some American millionaires this year, to paraphrase Emily Dickinson. In 2010, after a year in which the estate tax was zeroed out altogether, Congress passed a law that set the estate tax at 35 percent and exempted all estates under $5 million, adjusted for inflation. That law expires in January 2013 when the exemption will fall to $1 million and the tax will rise to 55 percent. Many families are faced with a stark proposition. If the life of an elderly wealthy family member extends into 2013, the tax bills will be substantially higher. An estate that could bequest $3 million this year will leave just $1.9 million after taxes next year. Shifting a death from January to December could produce $1.1 million in tax savings. ... It's well-known that people can delay death, for example, in order to live through significant dates—birthdays, holidays, anniversaries. In the first week of 2000, local New York City hospitals recorded an astonishing 50.8 percent more deaths than in the last week of 1999, according to the New York Times. Apparently, a significant number of people delayed their deaths in order to see the new millennium. ... Economists Wojciech Kopczuk of Columbia University and Joel Slemrod of the University of Michigan studied how mortality rates in the United States were changed by falling estate taxes. They note that while the evidence of "death elasticity" is "not overwhelming," every $10,000 in available tax savings increases the chance of dying in the low-tax period by 1.6 percent. This is true both when taxes are falling, so that people are surviving longer to achieve the tax savings, and when they are rising, so that people are dying earlier, according to Kopczuk and Slemrod. [A little more at the link] John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Amos Date: 28 Dec 12 - 01:38 PM People have a range of costs-of living, depending on how much of an installation they are operating. A large house with gardeners and cooks costs a helluva lot more to run than a rented apartment. It can be argued that a healthy, prosperous family needs a second home int heir life-style. To argue that the same family needs seven homes is a lot harder to justify in terms of any reasonable human goals except for pure conspicuous consumption. But even the most high-scale living has a limit, and if you are bringing down a thousand times your cost of living, then the incremental tax burden approaches meaninglessness, a small part of your entirely discretionary income. If you are earning barely over your cost of living, then the same per centage tax burden becomes a threat to survival. If you cannot see the difference between these two states of affairs, relative to the common efforts of building the nation as a whole, then you are too short-sighted to form an informed opinion. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Dec 12 - 02:09 PM "farmers and small business owners..." Drivel. From one of our most reliable sources of same. The vast majority of small business owners don't make close to $250,000 per year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: gnu Date: 28 Dec 12 - 02:17 PM JiK... why not just live forever to spite the bastards? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: dick greenhaus Date: 28 Dec 12 - 02:31 PM Just Curtious- How many of you have met someone who has a taxable (that's after deductions) income of over $250,000? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Dec 12 - 03:07 PM Not I. I will go on the record to note that I didn't like the idea of the Social Security withholding reduction - I think it should have been left alone. I would also remove the ceiling on the income calculations for paying into it. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 28 Dec 12 - 03:18 PM Lets keep in mind that what Obama is proposing is a rate that will kick in after the 1st $250,000 of income... This is still a lower tax than the pre-Bush tax cuts... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Jeri Date: 28 Dec 12 - 05:35 PM I've met people who had taxable incomes over $250,000. I don't remember the ones I actually knew ever having a huge amount of liquid assets, because they invested. The could have, IMO, afforded paying more income tax. I could afford paying more, but I'd rather not pay the amount I'd have to to make up for what isn't paid by those who CAN afford new cars, more house/houses than they need, vacations to exotic locations, or any number or amount of things THEY DON'T NEED TO SURVIVE. I don't begrudge people having nice things, and I don't even automatically dislike wealthy people. It's how they treat other folks that counts. As for the fiscal whoopsie-daisy, the folks on TV have been saying both sides have GOT to let us go over it. Repubs, so they can save the day later on by "reducing taxes" and Dems, so they can point to Repubs and say "those guys didn't care enough about Americans to do their fucking jobs." Not much different than now, but with some fairly hard-to-ignore evidence. I think there's a slim possibility that something may happen to avert disaster, but I always try to expect magic. US politics has its own version of an infinite improbability drive, but it unfortunately follows Murphy's Law. I think that works out to "anything that can go wrong will, but it won't be what you expected." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:18 PM The 'fiscal cliff' is a catch phrase and no one knows what it means. As Doug R used to say so often, "The sky is falling." If you read that Doug, I thought you wouldn't mind it being said once more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:29 PM Well, unfortunately, we do know what it means... It means that unemployment compensation will end immediately for millions of folks who have lost their jobs... That means they won't make their mortgage payments or rent... That means more foreclosures and homelessness... We already have hundreds of thousands of families living in their cars... It means that the folks who are barely hanging on will see major take-home pay cuts... 1/2 of Americans (working or not) are already living at 125% of poverty or less... A take-home pay cut will push hundreds of thousands, maybe into the millions closer to or below the poverty lines, which BTW, are already unrealistic... No, it won't be a cliff for the well-off or upper middle class but for half of Americans it will be a cliff... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:38 PM Do you think the NDAA was really an act? I am aware of what looms. This ain't news. What looms is the same fucking thing that happened a few years back when banks foreclosed. This time, with luck, some of these bastards will be shot where they sit: congress! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:42 PM Come on, brucie... Let's not starve out the bottom half of our population because we are pissed at the military/industrial complex... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:45 PM Come on, Bob. If you think it is possible, please don't dump that on me. You say "starve off". WTF you think has been going on for about 4 years now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:50 PM What has been going on is an obstructionist congress f'n over the country the best it could but, unless I missed your point, you are willing to let US go off the cliff so that sequestration will hurt NDAA??? No??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:53 PM Clear out your damned sinuses. I said nothing of the sort. What I DID say is I don't think you have a choice. You made that choice years ago when the crooks got away with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 28 Dec 12 - 07:55 PM Then, hey, I apologize... I love's ya, brucie... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Dec 12 - 09:45 PM How many of you have met someone who has a taxable (that's after deductions) income of over $250,000? At one little pub session some years back, one of our friends was celebrating the reversal of a state law limiting punitive damages in civil liability cases, and bought a "round for the house." The reversal made "him" (his estimate of the effect for his firm of some 40 attys on the case) $40,000,000 in one swell foop. It is a certainty that ALL of the 90 or so people there knew him and considered him something of a friend. (I was, I think, the only one there that night that bought him one, but it's a hard habit to break.) About a year later, Forbes Magazine ran an article on "highest paid lawyers" and ranked him no 3, as I recall, so his income was pretty consistent over a significant period. They said he made $9,000,000 that year, but he commented "they found about a third of it." Four or five "insurance peddlers" claimed "Million a Year" sales, and best estimate is that their commissions were easily over the $250,000 for each of those years. At least one, a "family friend of my then mother-in-law, claimed ten years straight. One self-described "worthless ol' fart" who worked for my dad for about 10 years, had "a little farm land" that netted about $300,000 per year, but he worked for $3.50/hr "because he liked having something to do." He "retired" at about age 97 (and still hittin' on the gal who ran the liquor store across the street from the cheap hotel where he lived). Toss in a fistful of "corporate executives" and other assorted unclassifiables, and you come up with quite a few that lots of people knew, even if they didn't have any idea how much they raked in. YOU likely have known more of them than you think you did. The ones worth knowing don't necessarily stand out in a crowd, most of the time. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,999 Date: 28 Dec 12 - 10:19 PM Honest people pay taxes. Dishonest people pay dividends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: sciencegeek Date: 29 Dec 12 - 12:32 AM well, I know a few very nice folks who happen to be worth millions.... but I grew up in a lower middle class area and am still a member of the 99%. I have also met more than a few folks who think that their sh*t is odorless due to their well padded bank accounts... Our congress is a national disgrace thanks to the nuts known as the tea party, where before it was limited more to disgraceful behavior. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 29 Dec 12 - 09:19 AM In the 1950s the tax rates were 91% on incomes of $250,000 and guess what??? You didn't have all these rich crybabies... If you go to the Outer Banks of North Carolina and drive by the marinas there you come away with a perspective of just how much money people actually have as there are rows and rows of million dollar boats lined up row after row after row... Then you drive through Great Falls, Va and look at the houses... Miles and miles of $5M houses... This is how the upper 2% live and they are weeping over paying 39.6% on income exceeding $250,000 a year??? Give me a break... $250,000 a year to me is rich, rich, rich... No two ways about it... I mean, if I can live comfortably on 1/5th of that then these people should be able to eek out a comfortable living on $250,000... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Jack the Sailor Date: 29 Dec 12 - 10:36 AM Buttttt Theyyyyy areeee the Jooooobbbbb Creators Cried the orange man in the blue suit! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,999 Date: 29 Dec 12 - 10:39 AM Yeah, they sure are. Resourceful, too. Three workers for the price of one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 29 Dec 12 - 11:55 AM Ye4ah, JtS... They keep a lot of folks employed building their yachts and mansions... No thanks to that economic model... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Jack the Sailor Date: 29 Dec 12 - 12:45 PM The yachts are built in Italy aren't they? The big ones anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Dec 12 - 01:26 PM If as part of the process they would streamline and simplify the tax code, that would be a welcome change. But it is in the complexity that they hide all of the perks for friends and supporters. SRS (who is finishing up research on materials to be donated before Dec. 31 for the 2012 tax year) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 30 Dec 12 - 10:02 AM The news this Sunday morning says "They're still working on it." Like cramming for finals. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,999 Date: 30 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM "Those Barely in Top Brackets Brace for a Hit People in Households Earning $200,000 to $500,000 Resign Themselves to Tax Increases Even If They Don't Feel Superrich" I snagged that headline because I thought y'all would appreciate it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Dec 12 - 02:33 PM It strikes me that high tax rates on the rich encourages them to pay themselves even more. The better way would be to impose a maximum income and maximum wealth rule at some reasonable level, say twice the overall average. Three times more maybe, as a compromise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 30 Dec 12 - 07:02 PM That alternative minimum tax is going to slap a lot of people upside the head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,999 Date: 30 Dec 12 - 07:39 PM SRS, would you explain that, SVP? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: JohnInKansas Date: 31 Dec 12 - 08:28 AM The Alternate Minimum Tax was created to prevent those with sufficiently high incomes from finding sufficient loopholes to avoid paying any tax at all. If your taxable income is above a certain level, a minimum tax is specified, and you must pay at least that amount regardless of what tax you calculate by applying all the exemptions and deductions you can find. The "trigger amount" at which the AMT becomes applicable has been changed many times, and hardly anyone knows for sure what it is; but the "cliff" results in expiration of "temporary limits" so that people in approximately the range between $75,000 to somewhere in the vicinity of $125,000 (?) who generally didn't pay according to the AMT will be subject to it if no other changes are made by the current session of Congress. The AMT calculation generally disallows certain "deductions" that would otherwise apply, resulting in a significant increase in the tax. The tax rate is essentially the same as for income calculated otherwise, but with certain deductions disallowed. The AMT apparently does not apply to the Capital Gains Tax which applies a rate of 15% rather than the 26%(?) rate for earned income. For a complete explanation one can look at the Wikipedia Explanation which I'm sure will make it all exceedingly clear**. ** (Like Hell it will.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: MarkS Date: 31 Dec 12 - 11:40 AM Watching the "negotiations" between the dems and repubs reminded me of a very old joke. Ivan Awfulitch has one cow. Dimitri Digaditch has two cows. The end of the world is announced. Somebody asks Ivan "What will you do???" Ivan replies, "Shoot one of Dimitris' cows." Has our politics really come to this? Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Dec 12 - 12:42 PM Thanks, John, for answering Bruce's question. I've been working on a tax item myself this week - a donation that will credit in the 2012 year if I get the collection delivered to the library this afternoon. It's a squeaker. It's a great gift, a very large collection of local and regional playbills dating back to the 1950s that I found at an estate sale. I'm donating it to my university research library's special collections, so I'm glad there are mechanisms in place where if you have something truly valuable research-wise that you can assign an appraised value and give it to someone else to make use of and get a tax credit for the donation. I hope they don't consider this a loophole to do away with. My puny taxes are a lot of work because I can't afford to pay accountants to do them. I can get a whiff of savings by using a couple of loopholes put in place for the super rich. Let's see if those loopholes stick around, or if the GOP slaps everyone if they can't preserve loopholes for the rich. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: akenaton Date: 31 Dec 12 - 05:15 PM Nobody said we were going to be treated fairly. What they did say when capitalism fucked up...is....Were all in this together. What that means, is the poor are going to be squeezed till the pips squeak and the rich are going to sit back and enjoy it. Isn't equality wonderful??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 31 Dec 12 - 05:39 PM As a progressive (liberal) I'm pretty pissed that the Dems are talking about $450,000... What a joke... I mean, if the entire idea is to reduce the deficit then exempting folks up to $450,000 a year won't raise squat... Get real and spine, Democrats... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Greg F. Date: 31 Dec 12 - 05:53 PM Sorry, Beardie, but you're wrong - or just lying - as usual. The "cliff" is the usual TeaPublican invention & disinformation melodrama. We're not talking tax increases, but tax restoration, to reverse the disastrous George Dumbya give-a-way to the rich which put the country in the econiomic toilet it now finds itself in. Better yet, lets return to the 1960's tax rates of 90% of income over $200,000 dollars - & stop whining about percentages in the 30% bracket. Oh, have pity on the the poor, poor persecuted billionaire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,999 Date: 31 Dec 12 - 08:24 PM Shit, Greg, if that poor fucker gets taxed at 90% he's only gonna have 100,000,000 left. Have you no heart? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Greg F. Date: 31 Dec 12 - 08:44 PM Yeah, I know, Bruce, I'm a heartless, communistic, socialistic class warrior - kinda like Joel Hägglund. Maybe they'll shoot me too, if they get a chance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: JohnInKansas Date: 31 Dec 12 - 08:45 PM One recent opinion piece offered the argument that $250,000 per year income is really only "middle class" because lots of people need multiple limos for business, and people who earn that much are probably boomers with a couple of kids in college with $60,000 per year tuition (each), and they probably need at least a couple of homes "for business purposes." Almost made me shed a tear. Maybe the higher tax rate shouldn't start until at least $250,002? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Dec 12 - 08:46 PM Another possible result of the "fiscal cliff" and the legislation that expires tonight - milk may go up to $6 or $7 a gallon. There is some agriculture pricing that kept prices down. Dairy farmers can use some help in the price of diary products, but I think it has more to do with the price of feed than the price of milk. It has been a while since I listened to that story, but it'll be sure to come up soon if there is a sudden price hike in the grocery store. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 31 Dec 12 - 08:47 PM I'm with you, John... 1/2 of Americans live at 125% of poverty or less... Let's keep this in perspective here... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: JohnInKansas Date: 01 Jan 13 - 01:08 AM Stilly - The "milk cliff" is from a program to keep prices UP, not down. Originally set up when costs of milk production were much higher, if the farmers can't sell the milk for at least the "support price" the Fed is REQUIRED to offer to buy a certain amount of it at a preset (high) price. With current production methods, the market has resulted in retail milk prices of around $3.50/gallon, which means the producers are selling the "raw milk" for some lesser amount; but if a "temporary hold" on government purchases expires, the gov will be forced to offer to buy it at a higher price. If the farmer can sell to the government for $5/gal, they're unlikely to sell it to the processors/distributors/cookie makers for $2.50. The milk users will have to match the "support price" in order to get any milk at all, which will give the cows lots of profit unnecessarily and once again will stick everybody who drinks milk or makes cheese or cookies with higher prices. The REAL somewhat disguised threat is that foreign suppliers who can't sell to the US gov't but can sell to US buyers/distributors will move into the US markets and drive all our own dairy farms out of business if the "milk cliff" isn't quashed. The farmers generally recognize that while the milk cliff would give them a temporary profit, it likely would drive them all out of production fairly quickly, since the amount of milk the gov is required to buy is a fraction of current production. Some cows will get rich, but others will have to compete in an extremely "distorted" market. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM Regardless of the intent of the former legislation, the result of it expiring will cost consumers more. That's all I can bring to that story - though as I mentioned, there are problems with a domino effect of government subsidies to do with agriculture. I'd have to find the story I saw/heard to make the connections, but I am not sure where I heard it. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Jan 13 - 10:03 AM "Senate-Passed Deal Means Higher Tax on 77% of Households By Richard Rubin - Jan 1, 2013 1:54 PM ET The budget deal passed by the U.S. Senate today would raise taxes on 77.1 percent of U.S. households, mostly because of the expiration of a payroll tax cut, according to preliminary estimates from the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center in Washington. More than 80 percent of households with incomes between $50,000 and $200,000 would pay higher taxes. Among the households facing higher taxes, the average increase would be $1,635, the policy center said. A 2 percent payroll tax cut, enacted during the economic slowdown, is being allowed to expire as of yesterday. E The heaviest new burdens in 2013, compared with 2012, would fall on top earners, who would face higher rates on income, capital gains, dividends and estates. The top 1 percent of taxpayers, or those with incomes over $506,210, would pay an average of $73,633 more in taxes. Much of that burden is concentrated at the very top of the income scale. The top 0.1 percent of taxpayers, those with incomes over about $2.7 million, would pay an average of $443,910 more, reducing their after-tax incomes by 8.4 percent. They would pay 26 percent of the additional taxes imposed by the legislation. Among households with incomes between $500,000 and $1 million, taxes would go up by an average of $14,812." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Greg F. Date: 02 Jan 13 - 10:09 AM Yup, Beardie, and we can thank the TeaPublican obstructionists for bringing it to pass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 02 Jan 13 - 10:12 AM Bottom line here??? We'll be re-visiting this sooner or later... The increases in this deal are a joke... They won't do a danged thing about cutting into the deficit because the rate on increased federal spending, while at a 60 year low (1.4%), is such that the increased revenues will be sucked up by the increased spending... BTW, NASCAR got $60M!!! Go Stroker Ace... You be da' man... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Jan 13 - 11:21 AM Wrong, Greggie boy. This was the SENATE bill, that the TEA party DID NOT VOTE FOR ( See who voted of it, nd who did not. Just the Democrats fault. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Jan 13 - 11:25 AM "CBO: 'Fiscal cliff' deal carries $4 trillion price tag over next decade By Peter Schroeder - 01/01/13 02:07 PM ET The Senate deal to avoid the "fiscal cliff" will add roughly $4 trillion to the deficit when compared to current law, according to new numbers from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO). The CBO determined Tuesday that the package, hammered out late Monday evening by Vice President Biden and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), would — over the next decade — come with a $3.9 trillion price tag. The agreement, which is pending before the House after passing in an 89-8 Senate vote early Tuesday, would extend lower tax rates on annual household income under $450,000 and postpone automatic spending cuts for two months. The extension of lower tax rates for the bulk of the nation's taxpayers and the addition of a patch to the Alternative Minimum Tax would add roughly $3.6 trillion to the deficit over the next decade, the CBO said. Other individual, business and energy tax extenders would add another $76 billion. The extension of unemployment benefits would cost roughly $30 billion, and the so-called "doc fix" would tally another $25 billion through fiscal 2022. The CBO says the budget agreement will lead to an overall increase in spending of about $330 billion over 10 years. The combination of tax hikes and spending cuts that make up the fiscal cliff — if allowed to proceed — would improve the nation's deficit, but economic experts on both sides warn its dramatic impact would push the nation back into a recession if allowed to take effect in 2013." Note NO cuts ins spending- the cuts the GOP wanted, but lots of higher taxes- the taxes the Dems wanted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 02 Jan 13 - 11:33 AM Greg is correct... Obama and the entire Congress is very respectful of just how much damage the Tea Party can do to the country and so everyone is having to dance around them... The problem is that we won't solve any problems until they are gone... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Jan 13 - 11:50 AM No, the problem is that until we cut spending we can never tax enough to get out of debt. The Senate did not cut spending- they increased taxes. The Senate is controlled by Democrats. The majority of House Republicans did NOT vote for the Senate bill- it was passed by the Democrats and a few Republicans who felt it was better than the "cliff". Greggie is never correct- *I* do not agree with him on Black Democrats. Maybe Bobert does??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Jan 13 - 11:53 AM "Congress approves 'fiscal cliff' measure By Lori Montgomery and Rosalind S. Helderman, Published: January 1 Congress approved a plan to end Washington's long drama over the "fiscal cliff" late Tuesday after House Republicans surrendered to President Obama's demand to let taxes rise on the nation's richest households. The House voted 257 to 167 to send the measure to Obama for his signature; the vote came less than 24 hours after the Senate overwhelmingly approved the legislation. House Speaker John A. Boehner (Ohio) and most other top GOP leaders took no public position on the measure and offered no public comment before the 10:45 p.m. vote. Boehner declined even to deliver his usual closing argument, leaving House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dave Camp (R-Mich.) to defend the measure as the "largest tax cut in American history." The bill will indeed shield millions of middle-class taxpayers from tax increases set to take effect this month. But it also will let rates rise on wages and investment profits for households pulling in more than $450,000 a year, marking the first time in more than two decades that a broad tax increase has been approved with GOP support. The measure also will keep benefits flowing to 2 million unemployed workers on the verge of losing their federal checks. And it will delay for two months automatic cuts to the Pentagon and other agencies that had been set to take effect Wednesday. Many economists had warned that the scheduled tax increases and spending cuts would have plunged the economy back into recession. Conservatives complained bitterly that the legislation would raise taxes without making any significant cuts in government spending. For much of the day, the measure appeared headed for defeat as Boehner contemplated tacking on billions in spending cuts, a move that would have derailed a compromise that the White House and Senate leaders had carefully crafted. In the end, GOP lawmakers decided not to take a gamble that could force the nation to face historic tax increases for virtually every American — and leave House Republicans to take the blame. "I don't know if playing chicken with the American people at this point is in the best interest of the people," said freshman Rep. Lou Barletta (R-Pa.). The bill drew 85 votes from Republicans and 172 from Democrats, meaning well more than half of its support came from the Democratic minority. With 151 Republicans voting "no," the GOP tally fell far short of a majority of the GOP caucus. That broke a long-standing preference by Boehner to advance only bills that could draw the support of a majority of his Republican members. In a sign of the moment's gravity, Boehner himself cast a rare vote: He supported the bill. So did Rep. Paul Ryan (Wis.), the GOP's vice-presidential candidate last year, who parted ways from Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), a potential 2016 presidential contender, who voted against the measure. But other top GOP leaders voted no, including Majority Leader Eric Cantor (Va.) and Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (Calif.). " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Jan 13 - 01:19 PM Cutting spending stifles growth, and results in nations prostrated by strangulation of restraint packages. See Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland for further reference. More places need to do what Iceland did, throw the bankers in jail that caused a lot of the fiscal problems. Until the US prosecutes and addresses the lost billions that were transferred from homeowners to investors through sly business practices, people won't trust the financial system. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Jan 13 - 01:59 PM " Senators Got 154-Page 'Fiscal Cliff' Bill 3 Minutes Before Voting on It By Matt Cover January 2, 2013 (CNSNews.com) – The U.S. Senate voted 89-8 to approve legislation to avoid the fiscal cliff despite having only 3 minutes to read the 154-page bill and budget score. Multiple Senate sources have confirmed to CNSNews.com that senators received the bill at approximately 1:36 AM on Jan. 1, 2013 – a mere three minutes before they voted to approve it at 1:39 AM. The bill is 154-pages and includes several provisions that are unrelated to the fiscal cliff, including repealing a section of ObamaCare, extending the wind-energy tax credit, and a rum tax subsidy deal for Puerto Rican rum makers. The bill avoids the fiscal cliff by making permanent the Bush tax cuts for individuals making less than $400,000 per year and couples making less than $450,000 and by putting off the automatic spending cuts (sequestration) from last year's debt ceiling deal until March. Technically, those Bush tax rates had expired at midnight on Dec. 31, 2012 and the spending cuts were scheduled to take place when the government reopened following the New Year's Day holiday." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 02 Jan 13 - 03:00 PM Thank you, Magz... I wished that bb and all these flat-earthers would take a basic college economics course rather than just ***proclaim*** their beliefs... Beliefs and facts aren't one of the same... That's the problem here... There are a small minority of Americans who are gaming the system and getting very, very rich from it and their pawns are the bb's of the country who read and ***believe*** the propaganda that these people stick out there for consumption... Problem is that the only folks profiting are the small minority and not the folks parroting the propaganda... So we end up with bad deals, like the one the Senate passed last night... This isn't all about spending but, yes, spending is a part of the fix... There was way too much pork in this bill... $60M for Stroker Ace (NASCAR)??? Give me a break... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me From: dick greenhaus Date: 02 Jan 13 - 04:53 PM Y'all are prejudiced. There's nothing in the law that prevents a family making $50K from buying and maintaining a dressage-trained horse, and taking a %77,000 tax deduction for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: GUEST,guest Charley Noble Date: 03 Jan 13 - 03:41 PM I'm with you, Dick. There are a whole lot of wimps and whiners around here who if they had half a brain could figure out how the new system works for their interests. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 03 Jan 13 - 03:46 PM Yeah, the loopholes out there for rich land owners are all but limitless... Wanta a fancy new tractor or truck or 4 wheeler??? Fine, just grow a little garden and take a few cucumbers to the farmers market or own a stenking horse and then Uncle Sam will subsidize those purchases... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: akenaton Date: 03 Jan 13 - 06:16 PM Bearded Bruce is correct. The only way to save the system is to instigate huge cuts in public spending.....a few million dollars from the ultra rich will make absolutely no difference, a fact that Mr Obama knows very well, but the system means much more to Mr Obama than the welfare of the poor.This vote was a smoke screen The huge cuts in public spending which will happen along shortly means more poverty for those who can least afford it, and that is the way it will always be. In the words of an old music hall song "Its the rich what gets the pleasure and it's the poor what gets the blame." But one day people will realise that the system causes the problems and it simply is not worth saving......or sacrificing a couple of generations of our children for. Of course the American Dream sometimes comes true....a few people make good....but the system ensures that it is only a very few, it is similar to why we continue to buy lottery tickets while our children starve.....hope springs eternal. Newsflash.....hope has been made redundant! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Janie Date: 03 Jan 13 - 10:27 PM What plays out on so many of these threads is the same thing that has played out in Congress, especially the House, these last several years. Makes me realize that Congress really is truly representative of the current state of our "Union." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Jan 13 - 12:42 PM Ake and BB can go advise Greece and Spain. Help them on their downward spiral. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Greg F. Date: 04 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM Bearded Bruce is correct. Thanks for the laugh, Pharoah. Funniest thing I've heard in a long while. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: akenaton Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:01 PM Greg....I dont think you or many others here recognise the severity of the problem facing the developed world. This is not a game....This is about starvation, real poverty, zero employment, cities burning, race riots,police state........ You think we are over the worst? We are at the beginning of the end. Something good may come of it.....but I very much doubt it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:09 PM Come on, Ake... You are repeating right winged propagandists who want you to think that the sky is falling and that the US is broke and is breathing down Greece's neck on its way to the abyss.. This would be laughable if it wasn't for so many people dippin' into the koolaid... The current debt that the US has ain't squat on the tip of a pin... This is 100% manufactured bullshit bullshit by people who aren't used to being out of power and are peddling fear and Armageddon at every turn in the road... Like FDR said in his 1st inaugural address: "We have nothing to fear but fear itself"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Greg F. Date: 05 Jan 13 - 10:32 AM I fdunno about that, Bobert - I think its appropriate to fear assholes in positions of power. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: akenaton Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:17 AM I'm no right wing propagandist Bob....but we shouldn't blind ourselves to why this catastrophy happened.....most of it had to do with complacent "liberal" thinking, we all allowed it to happen. Anyone with morethan two brain cells knew we were living beyond our means and tho' "democracy and equality" in a corporate capitalist system is meaningless, it costs us £trillions$ to keep the illusion in place. We simply swallowed the pitch, never questioning if the money was real or out of the Monopoly box, For capitalism to produce wealth we have to be competitive...we no longer are so, thus, jobs are shifted to counties who's populace are. As you often say, the one percent have the last word, and while this system remains in place, the one percent will survive.....they could never survive without the "fixit liberals". Harden up man! Eat your porage!! :0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Jan 13 - 12:57 PM Ake, if someone looked up "right wing propagandist" in the dictionary your photo appears there. You don't fool us! SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: ChrisJBrady Date: 05 Jan 13 - 01:03 PM Blame the frat boys of the financial world and their abusive bonding rituals. Also blame the Park Avenue residents (at the wealthy end) - search for the docu. 'Poverty - Park Avenue' on YouTube. I bet the Masons are well entrenched in this mess too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thanks, GOP. Fiscal Cliff will cost me "$____" From: Bobert Date: 05 Jan 13 - 01:15 PM What "catastrophe", Ake??? There is none!!! Just folks who want you to think there is... Here are some FACTS for you... The rate of increased federal spending during Obama's first term is lower than any administration since WW II!!! I guess you don't believe that, either... Of course you don't because facts "need not apply" for the fear-peddlers repertoire... I mean, let's get real, ol' buddy, and quit propagating right wing fear based rhetoric... B~ |
