Immigration to Belgium

Subject: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 02:50 PM

There was a fellow on C-Span a few days back who was talking about immigration to Belgium. His name was Michael Sandler, and I think he writes for the "National Review."
               In any event, the case he was making was this: There is a liberal party in power in Belgium. They depend on the immigrant vote in order to stay in power. Therefore, they are constantly trying to up the limits on immigrants coming into the country in order to garner their votes, and the pro-immigrant forces are constantly demanding they up the quotas further and further.
                The speculation is that in a very few years, the immigrants themselves will outnumber the natives, they won't need their liberal party friends any more, and will simply replace them with their own candidates and take over.
                We have witnessed that very thing taking place in Kosovo. It is expected to become an independent state soon, and owes its independence to a huge migration from Albania.
                Will this happen to America, with large numbers of people migrating from Latin America?

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 02:56 PM

This should be below the line in BS.
But the US has been a melting pot for immigrants for a long time. Belgium is quite a small country, which already has tensions between the French speakers and the Flemish speakers. When I last heard, they didn't have a government because the election result didn't deliver a majority for any party.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 03:01 PM

Yikes: I meant to add this as a BS thread. I can't figure out any way to fix it now.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 03:03 PM

Don't worry - Joe will fix it!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Newport Boy
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 03:24 PM

The story sounds very much like the nonsense peddled for the past 10 years by the ultra-right.

Basic facts - the Belgian population is 10.4 million. 89% of these are ethnic Fleming or Walloon. Net immigration rate is 1.22 migrants/1000 population. By my calculation, this would take a little over 300 years for the migrants to be in a majority. Hardly a threat!

Phil

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Rumncoke
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 03:40 PM

Immigrants out numbering the native Americans?

I thought that happened a long time ago.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Carol
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 04:43 PM

Is it the Belgium government that pays its Senior Citizens to stay out of the country during the winter, and thet's why we see them all in their motorhomes?

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 05:05 PM

So what ever happened to

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

LTS

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

Over-population happened!

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 05:22 PM

The Spanish government pays for its OAP's to have a week's holiday - it keeps the hotels on the Costas busy. And all Belgians that head for Spain seem to finish up on the Costa Tropical.

There has to be some sort of tax fiddle relating to Belgium too - the Chairman of my beloved Sheffield United is a tax exile there.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 06:43 PM

Isn't it easy for EU residents to change countries of residence ~ easier than before the current level of "unification," and (more to the point) easier than for people from non-EU localities?

If any group is likely to "take over" from "native" Belgians, I would think that non-controversial northern Europeans would pose a greater "danger" than any of those dreaded dark-skinned folk.

Well, I forgot about Turkey. With them in the EU, I suppose it may be plausible to live in fear of takeover by Turks.

Are there enough Turks in the world to become a majority in any Western-European country? If so, more than one of the smallest nations?

Of course, those third world people do tend to multiply more rapidly than us more "civilized" nations. So many of our young people are more interested in "career" than "family," and avoid childbearing like the plague.

The future, obviously enough, belongs to those who get born. If any "nation" or "race" or other subset of humanity should ever completely die out, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 07:41 PM

So, PoppaGator, either it'll be the Pope in Rome or the Elders of the LDS who wind up running the world 'cause their followers will have the most babies?**bg**

Rather than the Turks, I'd heard some rumblings about those Liechtenstein folks...ya know, they are quiet and no one really hears much about them, but I'll bet you anything they are stealthily plotting some kind of infiltration and take-over for world domination.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 07:54 PM

The United States has always been run by the immigrants.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 08:52 PM

"...the Belgian population is 10.4 million. 89% of these are ethnic Fleming or Walloon. Net immigration rate is 1.22 migrants/1000 population. By my calculation, this would take a little over 300 years for the migrants to be in a majority. Hardly a threat!"

                I suspect Sandler would include immigrants along with a couple of generations of offspring. Otherwise you're right, it wouldn't make sense. The important thing is, would they vote together?

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 09:47 PM

Considering Belgium's track record of insinuating itself into other peoples' lands and taking them over, it seems to me that they aren't really in a position to complain...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_colonial_empire

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 11:25 PM

What happened? Panic by Rig and like-minded individuals happened. Why does "yellow peril", "filthy Irish", etc. come to mind?

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 11:38 PM

Ron - I don't know why "yellow peril", and "filthy Irish" comes to mind. It only seems to come to your mind.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Newport Boy
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 04:15 AM

CarolC - As far as I know the Belgians in general are not complaining. It's just the ultra-right. In the June elections, Vlaams Belang (Flemish) had 12% and National Front (Walloon) had 2% of the votes for the Senate and Chamber of Deputies.

None of the other parties have any opposition to immigration.

And, taking Poppagator's point, 68% of migrants are from other EU countries, leaving less than 4% of the population from outside the EU.

As in most countries, the fear of immigration is based on a totally false perception of the figures.

Phil

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 07:40 AM

"As in most countries, the fear of immigration is based on a totally false perception of the figures."


                Not in the United States, however. Here there are very good reasons for fear. Climate change and dwindling resources are probably at the top of the list.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Wild Flying Dove
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:26 AM

Belgium is an odd little country that probably didn't ought to exist at all. When I ( Bubblyrat) was working over there, in Kortrijk ( Courtrai ), I spent some time learning about the country from my mentors, the VDAB, ( Vlaamse Dienst voor Arbeidsbemiddeling en Beroepsopleiding !! ),and was surprised to learn about the large numbers of Italians who had settled in Belgium after WW2. Apparently, Belgium had large reserves of coal, but nobody to mine it, whilst Italy was short of coal, but had masses of displaced persons & refugees, so a deal was done whereby Italy got coal in exchange for manpower. Thus it came about that the third largest ethnic group , linguistically speaking, in Belgium speaks Italian.As to the "tensions " between the Walloons & Flemings -- well, that must be a political tool, because everyone I met out there, irrespective of their French or Dutch -speaking loyalties, got along with each other splendidly !! And Belgium is a very small and densely populated country, like The Netherlands, so I wouldn't have thought that was any room left for "immigrants", from anywhere else at all. Mind you, I'd go tomorrow, if I had the chance !!

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:31 AM

If you look it up on Wikkipedia, it talks about a major Celtic influence, but I would have thought it to be too far east to have a lingering Celtic influence.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Newport Boy
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:42 AM

I don't want to pursue this too far, but the figures for the US are not that different. US statistics are a little difficult to compare, because of the way the Census Bureau classifies Hispanics, and so the only reliable figure is "foreign born".

In 2006, the foreign born were 12.5% of the population, much the largest group being from Mexico (3.8%). Historically, this is not a record high, although it is a big increase from 1970. From 1860 - 1920 the figure was around 14%, dropping to 5% in 1970 and rising to 12.5% in 2006.

Probably the biggest difference is that the peak 100 years ago was made up of mainly white Europeans, and today's lower peak is largely Hispanic.

Phil

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:43 AM

'Contrary to a widely held belief, a large majority of the foreigners living in Belgium are originally either from a member state of the European Union, or from another so-called developed Western country. Third-country nationals, as citizens of non-EU states are commonly described, are still in the minority, even if their concentration in the large urban centers makes them particularly visible.'

from Migration Information Souce

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Newport Boy
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:46 AM

Seeing EmmaB's post, I realise I haven't identified my sources. All my figures come from Migration Policy Institute (linked by EmmaB) or the CIA World Factbook.

Phil

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:57 AM

What's 'over population?'

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 09:11 AM

Too many people!

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 09:18 AM

What's the correct number?

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 09:20 AM

What with the problems between Flemings and Walloons in Belgium, maybe more people coming in who aren't either, but would just see themselves as Belgian, might be quite a good idea.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 09:34 AM

"What's the correct number?"




                           Fewer than there are now!

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 09:55 AM

So will you go first, Riginslinger?

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 09:58 AM

All these desperate people who want a better life ... where are they supposed to go?

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:03 AM

An article (from the CBC) of interest .. that is, if anyone is interested...

   CBC from abroad

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:14 AM

Yes, it is tragic when people mistake environmental concerns for racism.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:25 AM

I would like to see evidence of the original "case" that Riginslinger claims was made.

'There has been controversy in Belgium about bringing the country into line with other parts of Europe - such as Sweden, Finland, Ireland, and the Netherlands, where immigrants without European Union (EU) citizenship already have the right to cast ballots in local polls.

Noncitizen immigrants from non-EU countries who have lived in Belgium legally for at least five years - and are therefore considered to be sufficiently integrated - would be permitted to cast their ballots in local elections. As a special condition, they would have to register to vote (which Belgian nationals do not have to do, since the country has compulsory voting)

According to the Belgian Ministry of Domestic Affairs, as of February 2002, the number of potentially eligible non-EU voters was 123,542, among Belgium's total population of 10.3 million inhabitants

A 1998 study by the European Research Centre on Migration and Ethnic Relations (ERCOMER) in Utrecht in the Netherlands, shows that, although their electoral turnout is low, immigrants initially tend to vote for left-wing parties. After a number of years, their votes spread out, and, by and large, they vote the same way as the general population.'

From The Christain Science Monitor

it seems as though fears such as these -

'In a roadside gas station 25 miles west of the Belgium capital, a handful of truckers are sipping hot coffee and loudly discussing politics.

"In the big cities, the immigrants already run the city councils," one of the men says, in a statement marked by equal parts of hyperbole and resentment. "Now that they are going to give them all the right to vote, they will take over the smaller towns, too. Pretty soon, we won't be the boss in our own country anymore."

would appear to be far right-wing scare tactics as immigrants are not rushing to register

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:43 AM

Scare tactics or not, more people place greater demands on resources.

                But the guy who appeared on C-Span--Michael Sandler-- just verbalized his thoughts. I don't know if there's a written record of them or not, or even if he was accurate in what he said.

                It's pretty well documented, however, that what's going on in Kosovo is real.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 10:52 AM

It's true that after The Netherlands Belgium is the most densely populated European country.

It also has an active far-right party Vlaams Belang
whose founder members were Nazi sympahizers and who are very happy to confuse rascism with environmental concerns and Flemish nationalism.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:12 AM

Riginslinger, could you please inform us of the details of this 'huge migration from Albania.'

According to Médecins Sans Frontières -
'New York/Paris, April 30, 1999 — The ongoing forced deportation of the Albanian population of Kosovo is planned, systematic, and constitutes a crime against humanity,' according to a report issued today by the international medical relief agency Doctors Without Borders

Fortunately many of these refugees like these
were enabled to return to their own country where, prior to the fighting, they constituted at least 90 percent of the total population.

It is my understanding that Kosovo's dwindling Serb minority, as in past elections, boycotted the vote, obeying calls from Serbia's leadership and.....

"The United States deeply regrets the decision of Kosovo Serbs, encouraged by the government of Serbia, not to participate in these elections. Kosovo's Serb community can only be disadvantaged by this decision," said State Department spokesman Sean McCormack

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:24 AM

CNN news report on Kosovo independence and bilateral recognition

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:30 PM

The link doesn't seem to work for me. But the basic facts as we recall them from the 1990's were these. Albania is a country with a rapidly expanding population, they spilled over into Kosovo in large numbers. Serbia tried to expell them, but their timing was bad because President Clinton needed desparately to get Monica Lewinsky's picture off the front pages of the newspaper.

                He hit upon the idea of calling the Kosovo situation a humanitarian issue, Madeline Albright discovered she was Jewish, and they convinced NATO to come into the evacuation on the side of the Albanians.

                This worked for a number of reasons: Albania was Islamic, which helped the situation in the Middle East, the Russians were too wrapped up in their own problems at the time to put up much of a resistance, so it worked to further embarrass them, and it did what it was designed to do, Lewinsky's smiling face was moved to the back pages of the papers.

                Now, in order not to admit what was really going on, the West has to try to pretend like an independant Kosovo is a really good thing.

                The victims were the Serbs who had been living there for centuries, but they've been painted in the press as the bad guys, so everything is just wonderful.

                The broader implications are obvious. The US has Catholic countries to the south, and Europe has Islamic countries to the south and east.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

THE 'BASIC FACTS'.....

'Kosovo's population became increasingly ethnic Albanian during the period of Ottoman rule. A decisive turning point, politically and demographically, was the large Serbian exodus out of the region (and ultimately into Hungary) in the late 17th century. It was caused by Ottoman armies pressing north, ultimately to their defeat at Vienna against the Habsburg Dynasty during the Ottoman-Habsburg War of 1683-1699. That war spelled the beginning of the end for Ottoman rule in the Balkans, though as noted it would survive in Kosovo for another two centuries.'


'Over the last century, Serbs drove large numbers of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo at various times in what proved antecedents to Slobodan Milosevic's 1999 campaign to effectively cleanse the province of them. Nonetheless, ethnic Albanians remained the majority population throughout the century, and in recent decades became dominant numerically. Serbs and Montenegrins constituted slightly less than 30 percent of the population in the early years of Tito's rule, which lasted from 1945 until his death in 1980, gradually declining to less than half that percentage in recent times due to Serb departures and high Albanian birth rates. Whatever the recent population proportions, Kosovo is a land to which both Serbs and Albanians have important and longstanding claims.'

'In short, both Serbs and ethnic Albanians have important claims and ties to Kosovo. Yet it is the heartland or "Jerusalem" of neither people. As such, claims by extremists on both sides that they have exclusive rights to the land are false, as are claims that the peoples are so different from each other as to be innately incapable of coexistence.

'In our view, the fact that Kosovo's Albanians are now effectively in charge in the province--and that they ultimately deserve their independence--has nothing to do with original claims to the land. It has, instead, everything to do with Slobodan Milosevic's--and his fellow Serbs'--treatment of the Kosovar Albanians in recent times.'

Excerpted from Winning Ugly: NATO's War to Save Kosovo, by Ivo Daalder and Michael O'Hanlon printed on PBS web page

Slobodan Milosevic

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:50 PM

I think the problem goes back a lot further in history than that more recent immigration rush from Albania.

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:01 PM

BTW ... the Albanian exodus was mainly due to the fact that the country's infrastructure was in complete collapse ... the people were basically starving ... desperate to get out. Nothing to do with overpopulation.

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:14 PM

precisely Bill!

'Most historians believe that the Albanian people are descended from a non-Slavic, non-Turkic group of tribes known as Illyrians

The Illyrians created and developed their culture and language in the western part of the Balkans, where ancient writers mentioned them in their works. The regions that the Illyrians inhabited were expansive, encompassing the western Balkan peninsula, north to central Europe, and east around the Lyhind Lake (Ohrid Lake).'

From Wikipedia

The TRUE history of 'Albanian migration'

'By 1459, all of Serbia, including Kosovo, had fallen under Turkish rule.

Slowly but surely, the population balance began to change as the then-majority Serbs migrated northwards to Bosnia, the Austrian and Hungarian lands.

Following a failed uprising in 1689, the numbers of Serbs emigrating began to escalate.

They were replaced by mostly Muslim Albanians who came to Kosovo's fertile lands from the hostile mountains of Albania proper

From 1878, Serbia was a fully independent state again but Kosovo still lay under Ottoman rule.

This year was also important for Albanians as it saw the foundation of the League of Prizren, which marks the birth of modern Albanian nationalism, not just in Kosovo but for all Albanians.'

BBC News March 24, 1999

Between the two World Wars the Serbs tried to reverse the population imbalance in Kosovo by sending settlers to the area.

By 1989 however,thanks to Serb emigration and a high Albanian birth rate, the proportion of Serbs in the province had now fallen to a mere one for every nine Albanians and Milosevic stripped Kosovo of its autonomy

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:34 PM

"Yet it is the heartland or "Jerusalem" of neither people."

                As Jerusalem is the heartland of neither people.


"'In our view, the fact that Kosovo's Albanians are now effectively in charge in the province--and that they ultimately deserve their independence--has nothing to do with original claims to the land. It has, instead, everything to do with Slobodan Milosevic's--and his fellow Serbs'--treatment of the Kosovar Albanians in recent times.'"


                In whose view? Whose side are they on?


    "... the Albanian exodus was mainly due to the fact that the country's infrastructure was in complete collapse ... the people were basically starving ... desperate to get out. Nothing to do with overpopulation."

               I'd say that's the basic definition of overpopulation.


               Everybody seems to want to ignore the Monic Lewinsky factor.



                  In any event, I think Sandler's point was that a similar thing is happening in Belgium that happened in Kosovo. My point is, it could very easily happen in North America and Western Europe.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 01:54 PM

Riginslinger the 'huge migration' you referred to happened at the end of the 1600s beginning of the 1700s and was as a result of Serbian migration north so, in fact, was a direct result of the underpopulation of Kosovo at the time!

Slobodan Milosevic's attempt at 'ethnic cleansing' of the ethnic Albanian population of Kosovo is a tragic undisputed fact of recent history.

'Muslims and Croats were either forced into exile as refugees, held as hostages for use in prisoner exchanges, or placed in concentration camps. Many were summarily executed. An estimated 20,000 Muslim women and girls were thrown into rape camps'

What the **** has Monica Lewinsky got to do with any of this?

and for that matter what has allowing a very small settled Belgian non EU population the right to vote in local elections as practicesed in other European countries got to do with the situation in either Kosovo or North America either?

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:14 PM

Emma - I'm going to assume you don't recall the event. The Serbs were carrying signs that said "Monica's War," and made quite a lot of the connection.

                   It's easy for the American press to take one side or the other in a conflict, and publish reports that support their preconceived biases--it's kind of like having a favorite team to root for. They do it all the time. Just scanning through your own posts up above, though, would seem to indicate there was probably more to the story.

                   In any event, as for the bigger picture in North America and Western Europe, I would think it would be obvious. If it's not now, I suspect it will be soon.

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: number 6
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 02:29 PM

" I'd say that's the basic definition of overpopulation."

I'd say it was related to economics, not over population .... Albania was/is trying to evolve from a midieval agri-economy to one that could survive in the world of the 20th/21st century. Also from what I have read, the CIA had been mucking about in Albania that obviously had some effect to the total collapse and economic chaos brought on to that country.

biLL

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 03:29 PM

Ringinslinger, I'm not an American and I trust I know a little more about European history and politics than you seem to.

In fact I remember the infamy of the Bosnia conflict very well.

On April 6, 1992, the Bosnian Serbs launched a campaign of aggression against Bosnia with the siege of Sarajevo and the ethnic cleansing of the Drina River valley and the Bosnian Krajina

During the next three and a half years, Bosnian Serb forces, with the support of Milosevic in Belgrade, laid waste to large parts of Bosnia, killing more than 200,000 civilians and forcing half the population, two million people, to flee their homes. Tens of thousands of women were systematically raped. Concentration camps were set up in Prijedor, Omarska, Trnopolje, and other areas. Civilians were shot by snipers on a daily basis in Sarajevo, a city left without heat, electricity, or water.

I also remember the shame that was Srebrenica, a UN-declared safe area and guarded by a lightly armed Dutch contingent. This did not deter Mladic, who was intent on taking over the enclave; during a few days in mid-July, more than 7,000 Bosnian Muslim males were executed by Mladic's troops; the rest of the town's women and children were driven out

Facing a retreat of UN peacekeepers, President Clinton took the lead in August 1995 and launched a limited bombing campaign against Bosnian Serb positions and resulted in Karadzic and Mladic agreeing to peace negotiations commencing in Dayton, Ohio, in November 1995

THIS WAS 3 YEARS BEFORE ANY MONICA LEWINSKY SCANDAL!!!

Meanwhile the international community appeared to have turned its back on Kosovo the offer of a NATO peace keeping force was rejected by Milosevic, who wanted to maintain complete control of the province and would not consider an outside military force on Serb soil.

On March 24th 1999 NATO bombing began with the proclaimed goal
"Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back".

'On the ground, the ethnic cleansing campaign by the Serbians was stepped up and within a week of the war starting, over 300,000 Kosovo Albanians had fled into neighboring Albania and Macedonia, with many thousands more displaced within Kosovo. By April, the United Nations was reporting that 850,000 people—the vast majority of them Albanians—had fled their homes.

Shortly before the end of the bombing, Yugoslav President Slobodan Miloševiæ, along with Milan Milutinoviæ, Nikola Sainoviæ, Dragoljub Ojdaniæ and Vlajko Stojiljkoviæ were charged by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) with crimes against humanity including murder, forcible transfer, deportation and "persecution on political, racial or religious grounds.'
- From Wikipedia


Now you can re write history as much as you want but do not expect me to share your gross inaccuracies or blatent prejeudices!

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 04:19 PM

Emma - I said nothing about Bosnia, and nothing I said about Kosovo is inaccurate. I am not prejudiced against any person or group. My warning can be phrased very simply.

                Increased human population growth places greater demands on resources.

                That's all I was trying to say.

                To that end, I am very leary about countries where populations grow very quickly and spill over into their neighbor's territory. In every case, where I've seen this happen there has been a religious component to it.

                This wouldn't be of a huge concern if the country absorbing the excess people was a kingdom or a theocracy. If the country is a democracy, however, the long time residents could find themselves quickly out-voted.

                I suspect this has something to do with Israel's quandry related to the Palestinian's "right-of-return."

Subject: RE: Immigration to Belgium
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM

and for this you quote the movement of people in the 17th century?
- get real!!!

Ringlinslinger, I grew up in a 'democracy' where for too many years 'Gerrymandering' was openly practised in one part of the 'Kingdom' and numerous residents of a different religion from the party in power were effectively disenfranchised.

Of course another way to ensure you have the majority is ethnic cleansing or simply to continue to ignore the UN General Assembly Resolution 194 passed in 1948.

I really can't cope with this much intransigence in the face of recorded history; I do have much better things and more productively useful to do than to continue this debate - like wash my hair!