BS: KatrinaGate

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:37 PM

Maybe we should all go down there on a field trip and beat up on people so they won't sign that pertiton, Al-Qaeda style.

You can if you want to, but personally, I don't think that will accomplish much of anything. Even if Blanco goes, we'll still be stuck with the DHS.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM

Well, looks like I beat leadfingers to it... Sorry, pal...

Now as fir the Quackster's last post.... Ahhhh, like what does this have to do with this discussion... You are hell-bent on shifting the blame anywhere but where is belongs... I couldn't care less if they recall Blanko... She has nothing to do with the argument I have presented and you, to dat, have not provided anything other than smoke in rebuttal to my orignal argument...

For the 10th time... Who gives a rat's ass about Blanko... She has nothing to do with the ordering the Secretary of DHS to order FEMA to act... She ain't the friggin' president, the last I looked...

Go back and review yer lessons, Duck... I tried to bring it way down to readable for you Bush faithfuls... I din't use no big words to confuseart you 'er nuthin yet you still seem confused...

Professor Squarepants

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:49 PM

Truth bounces off of Spongebobert squarepanties like bullets off of Superman.

Here he sits in the garden spot of America preaching to his disciples about what goes on in New Orleans. Looks like some people at ground zero know a few things he don't.

I heard from an impeccable source that state and local authorities are the first responders.

Calling all cars, calling all cars. Now hear this. Send us every thing you have.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 08:57 PM

Impeachable source? Sounds about right.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 09:12 PM

More qucking from the "quack gallery"...

The old if-you-haven't-been-there-you-can't-possibly-know-anything-about-it argument....

So, I ask the Duck if he/she thinks the moon exists and the Duck says, Sure it does"...

So using Quack-logic I say "Well, have you been there, Duck?'

"Well, no, I haven't" quacks the quaster...

...to which I reply in quack-logic, "Then it must not exist if you haven't been there..."

You stickin' with this game plan, Duck???

The Teach

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM

Geoduck, just let it go - you will never convince the likes of Carol and Bobert about anything. I have been trying to get bobert to come up with some real facts but he just can't do it. He doesn't have a clue as to how far off base he is. I guess in some repects I was baiting him but Lord knows I gave him every opportunity to redeem himself.

Bobert, you friggin' moron, go back and read the posts. I was there before the dam'n winds died down, had to wait to move into the outskirts of New Orleans and watch the local/ state governments prevent the Red Cross from doing their job. The Salvation Army managed to get some relief supplies into the dome before the Govenrnor said "no, we don't want more people to come here. If they find out we have all this stuff, they will just keep showing up."

Bobert, you are one blind, hateful individual who does his dam'ndest to make others think you are Mr. Right. You are such a phoney and are so blind to the truth.
I bid you farewell, you are not worth the time!

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM

Yes I have been there several times. I ate the beignets sitting at a sticky table in the in the Cafe Du Monde. Went to the French Quarter market. I strolled the levee and Riverwalk. I rode the street cars. I rode in an antique Rolls with a police escort (just grease a few palms) when my daughter got married in an old mansion down there. Attended a private crawfish boil. I drank Turbodog beer. I ate Cajun food in a famous restaurant with the squeeze boxes and Cajun dancing. I been to the zoo. I saw all of the poor parts of New Orleans that are like a third world country and like a third world country it is ridden with corruption.

I heard second hand about a couple that wanted to open a Curves but they refused to pay bribes. They could not get ther license and lost their ass.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:56 PM

Let's not be too hard on the Ol' Bobster.

He is just pissed at Bush for winning and he is trying to use Katrina as a platform for his rant.

Time will tell. 'Course, if he would put some Adolph's in his Wildroot Cream Oil he would come around a lot faster.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM

The point that a situation can be reacted to when you are 10 miles away from as opposed to 1000 miles in a timely manner seems to be a reasonable assumption. FEMA is the responder after the diaster happens. If all the relief supplies are moved in before the problem accurrs, that would result in a bigger cleanup process.

The primary thing to do is evacuate the residents in the path of the storm prior to it hitting the area. That is easier accomplished using buses, trains, etc., in the projected path of the Huirricane, not from Federal sites 1000 to 2000 miles away. Can you say "travel time?"

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM

The point that a situation can be reacted to when you are 10 miles away from as opposed to 1000 miles in a timely manner seems to be a reasonable assumption.

This statement makes me very skeptical of your assertions that you were there shortly after the storm hit. If you're 10 miles away with all of the communication lines down and most of the roads impassable, for all practical purposes, you might as well be a thousand miles away in terms of how effective you can be.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM

Oops. My mistake. That was the other alphabet GUEST who made that assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM

BTW, the number of busses they had wouldn't have been enough to evacuate more than a fraction of the number of people who didn't have their own transportation. Amtrak is owned and operated by the federal government. The Louisiana National Guard might have been able to do the job, but most of the equipment they would have needed for that job was in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 12:00 PM

Carol C, they could have least tried a little harder - and I will concede the fact that many citizens said "Hell no, I won't go!" Their welfare checks were coming in a few days.

How many city/school buses did they have available?

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 12:21 PM

How do you know they didn't Guest,G? The fact is, they made a decision that was the best they could do under the circumstances. They could have used one bus to take a few people out of New Orleans altogether, or they could use that same bus to make multiple trips to get a much larger number of people from their homes to the nearest emergency shelter.

They chose to help the greater number of people in getting to the emergency shelters. That was the best decision they could have made under the circumstances. And they did have provisions for about 48 hours at those locations. Things didn't start to get desperate at those shelters until after a couple of days.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:18 PM

Perfesser Pink Pants. Here is all the information you need for this class and from your favorite left wing rag to boot:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/10/AR2005091001529.html

"...In fact, while the last regularly scheduled train out of town had left a few hours earlier, Amtrak had decided to run a "dead-head" train that evening (Sep 27th)to move equipment out of the city. It was headed for high ground in Macomb, Miss., and it had room for several hundred passengers. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined."

So the ghost train left New Orleans at 8:30 p.m., with no passengers on board..."

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:22 PM

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/091805/new_blanco001.shtml

"It was at that point, Blanco said, that she realized she had made a critical error.

"I assumed that FEMA had staged their buses in near proximity",....

....Brown said that, on the day before the storm hit, he asked Blanco and Maj. Gen. Bennett Landreneau, head of the state's National Guard, what resources they needed.

"The response was like, 'Let us find out,' and then I never received specific requests for specific things that needed doing," Brown told The New York Times last week.

Blanco said it shouldn't have been up to her to provide a list.

"Specific things, my God," she said. "(If) they didn't know that we were in the middle of search and rescue and needed to evacuate people, then they were not on the ground with us. We needed buses and helicopters...

Two days later (Thursday), President George W. Bush met with Blanco on Air Force One and asked her for control of the troops that were finally pouring into the state. Blanco asked if Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour would be under the same regime. The answer was "No."

Blanco told Bush she'd get back to him in 24 hours. The president didn't wait. That night, the White House faxed a memorandum of understanding for her to sign to cede control of the troops. Her answer was "No."

"If I thought that it was going to bring one more resource to bear, if I thought that he was denying me resource because of it, and I don't think he was, then it might have been something that I would have considered," she said....."

Subject: Lyr Add: CITY OF NEW ORLEANS (Steve Goodman)
From: GUEST,Wiggy
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM

CITY OF NEW ORLEANS
(Steve Goodman)
As recorded by Steve Goodman on "Steve Goodman" (1971)

1. Ridin' on the City of New Orleans,
Illinois Central, Monday mornin' rail,
There are fifteen cars and fifteen restless riders,
Three conductors and twenty-five sacks of mail.
They're all out on the southbound odyssey,
And the train pulls out o' Kankakee,
Rolls along past houses, farms, and fields,
Passin' towns that have no name,
And freight yards full of old black men,
And the graveyards of rusted automobiles.

Singin': Good mornin', America; how are you?
Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
Yes, I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans,
And I'll be gone five hundred miles when day is done.

2. And I was dealin' cards with the old men in the club car,
And it's penny a point; there ain't no one keepin' score.
Won't you pass that paper bag that holds that bottle?
You can feel the wheels grumblin' through the floor.
And the sons of Pullman porters, the sons of engineers,
They ride their fathers' magic carpet made of steam;
And mothers with their babes asleep go rockin' to the gentle beat.
The rhythm of the rails is all they dream.

Just a-singin': Good mornin', America; how are you?
Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
And I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans.
I'll be gone five hundred miles when day is done.

3. Night time on the City of New Orleans,
Changin' cars in Memphis, Tennessee,
It's halfway home; we'll be there by mornin',
Through the Mississippi darkness rollin' to the sea.
And all the towns and people seem to fade into a bad dream.
The old steel rail, it ain't heard the news.
The conductor sings his song again.
It's "Passengers Will Please Refrain."
This train's got the disappearin' railroad blues.

Just a-singin': Good night, America; how are you?
Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
And I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans.
I'll be gone five hundred miles when day is done.

Just a-singin': Good night, America; how are you?
Sayin': Don't you know me? I'm your native son.
Well, I'm the train they call the City of New Orleans,
And I'll be gone a long, long time when day is done.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:36 PM

That ghost train makes a pretty good rallying cry for people who care more about partisan politics than they do about people. But that train would not have solved the problem.

And Blanco was right about deciding to not cede control of the Louisiana troops. There was absolutely no reason for Bush to ask her to do so. And if he did withhold support to Louisiana because she did not cede control of the troops, he did it for political reasons, and he is directly responsible for any problems arising from that political ploy.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 03:47 PM

The train is one small example of the gross ineptitude of the local Government. And how does it relate to partisan politics except that you want to block out any evidence of mistakes by the local governmnet and concentrate on QWB whom you hate for winning the electiuon?

Do you know what Posse Comitatus is?

"Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

The Gov has to authorise it or it is uncostitutional for federal troops to enforce the law. Dis she do it? No she kept saying "24 hours" finally before the 24 hours was up Bush faxed something for her to sign to cede control to the feds as per the law requires.

If Bush had done it as you said he should, you would be demandinq that he be sent to jail for two years.

"We need everything you've got" is not authorisation for anything. Brownie even asked personally and specifically what they needed and never got an answer.

Why not drop the mental baggage and make a fresh start?

What one thing would have solved the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 04:55 PM

Yes, I know what Posse Comitatus is. And it had zero application in this situation. Your comment about it is a red herring. The Louisiana National Guard should have been used for law inforcement purposes, and National Guard from other states and other US forces should have been used for non-law enforcement kinds of support.

Bush wants to make Posse Comitatus an issue in this context because he's a big government, more power for the executive branch kind of guy. He wanted to use it to enlarge the government, and his power. And he wanted to further erode states' rights. That's why he's a radical and not a conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:12 PM

Without using your bias and prejudice explain why and how PC does not apply? Back it up with some facts like the actual text from the law.

All Blanco had to do was ask, Instead she played a game of expecting others to do things without being told to do so she can not be blamed for anything.

Does the words "I don't know what day it is" convey a sense of leadership and responsibility?

You assume any charges made of a Democrat are politicaly motivated. If Democrats never make mistakes or do anything wrong, that might apply most of the time but some times they do apply. I think in this case the local government is shifting to blame to the federal government.

You are like some people that yell racist any and everytime a black person is accused of something. Is it possible that some black people do something wrong once in a while? If somebody yells racist every time, how can thay be punished when they do something wrong?

Now you can proceed with your rant on me being a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:25 PM

Posse Comitatus forbids the US (federal) forces for being used in a law enforcement capacity. It wasn't necessary for federal forces to be used in a law enforcement capacity in Louisiana. As I said before, they could, and should have been used in a non-law enforcement capacity while the state forces (Louisiana National Guard) were used in a law enforcement capacity.

This is what the United States Coast Guard site has to say about it. I assume you will accept that they don't have a "bias" in this regard.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/PosseComitatus.html

"'POSSE COMITATUS ACT' (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to 'execute the laws' except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. Limit on use of military for civilian law enforcement also applies to Navy by regulation. Dec '81 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies--including the Coast Guard--especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews). Positive results have been realized especially from Navy ship/aircraft involvement.


Had I been in Governor Blanco's shoes at that particular moment in history, I might not have known what day it was either.

And you are a clown. But not the good kind.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:55 PM

CarolC,

Warning: They are trying to suck you into the details because they have no asnwer to the more fundamental question of why, especially after 9/11, the Bush administartion blinked when the chips were down...

But beyond Bush blinking there is a larger question of whether or not the Bush adminstartion, since it doesn't like outside opinions and loves to operate in secret, had taken steps to "protect American citizens... In demoting and gutting FEMA, it's no surprise that FEMA, even though it wasn't ordered into the fray way too late, came up short on organization, communication and product...I can't help that a 90's FEMA would have been more up to the task...

This is Bush's fault...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:09 PM

All Blanco had to do was ask, Instead she played a game of expecting others to do things without being told to do so she can not be blamed for anything.

She did ask. And she worded her request according to how such requests are supposed to be worded. Peace has posted dozens of links to the exact wording of her request in the many other threads on this subject. I'll try to find one of them for you when I get a chance.


It's ok, Bobert. I think people ought to know the extent to which Bush has hoodwinked people who consider themselves to be "conservative" into believing he is one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:49 PM

Okay, CarolC.... You pound 'um low and I'll pound 'um high... 'er vice versa... Anyway, one thing fir sure is that that ain't gonna get away with their usual proclaimations and sandbaggin'...

One thing that i8s becoming increasingly evdient to me, however, and that is that these folks will pull any trick outta the bag... Must be nice to have the corporate big boys throwing tens upon millions into the rightie blogs to give these folks their talking points...

Problem is when the corporations are late to the battle as in this thread cause here we are with well over 200 posts and I have yet to have one trespond directly to the original arguments that I offered in thes thread...

Yeah, I've been called a lot of names whcih is their usaul stall tactics when the corporate apologist haven't gotten the talkin' points to these GUEST's and so they use the name calling and attacks on me as a stall tactic...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:16 PM

The New Orleans Commission to seek overhaul..., has called on authorities to close the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet, a shortcut for shipping from the River to the coast which cuts through a corner of the City. This outlet was a major source of the water which flooded the eastern, predominantly Black half of the City (Orleans Parish) when the storm surge roared up from the Gulf Coast.
As a shipping route, the Federal government authorities are responsible for the Outlet.
Local authorities have reached a consensus that it should be closed; opened in the 1960's, for years it has been little used and serves as a conduit for destructive saltwater into freshwater wetlands. Port of New Orleans authorities object to closure, and may be supported by federal authorities. See New York Times, article by Gary Devlin, January 11, 2006, 'New Orleans Commission....'

The Navigation Canal levee failures was responsible for the rest of the water entering the Ninth Ward and adjacent areas of Orleans Parish. This Canal also is the responsibility of the Federal government.

Blame is thrown on City authorities for failure to use buses, but licensed drivers could not be found, and the worst hit areas of Metro could not be reached. The so-called ghost train could have helped a few hundred in its neighborhood, providing that timing was satisfactory, a point in dispute, and it was not accessible to those who needed evacuation most.

People who do not know the situation look on New Orleans as a City under unified control, which it is not. Slightly more than half the citizens of Metro New Orleans live (lived) outside of the City boundaries, and are subject to the governments of adjacent cities, and the authorities of Jefferson and Orleans Parishes.

The closure of the bridge to Gretna, across the River and a city only slightly affected by water, was effected by Gretna and Jefferson Parish authorities. The City of Kenner, between New Orleans and the Airport, refused shelters. The City has no authority in these and other suburban 'cities', although no boundaries are discernable.
The Governor is similarly handicapped because of the deep chasm between the politicians of the northern part of the State and the region around New Orleans. Decisions on major waterways are Federal, and he finds himself largely in an advisory position.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:34 PM

Thank you, Q, for this informative post...

Yeah, the Bush apologists here like neat little pigeon holes in which to shift the blame... Ain't that easy...

Hey, it was the Bush administartion, after 9/11 that said "We are on the case..."

Yeah, Bush loved to pump out his chest and proclaim "My job is to protect the American people"....

Problem is that when we look closely at Bush's actual
performance he was too busy fleecing the middle class by redistributing wealth toward the wealthy and away from the middle
class to be too engaged in really working towrad protecting America from much of anything...

In demoting FEMA, he actually made Americans less safe??? The evidence is in one this one... The only folks who can't accept this are the most "true beleivin' Bush brownshirts"...

And here we are some 5 months later and what we are seeing is no real well defined federal response???? Maybe Bush hasn't been told he is no longer the Governor of Texas but President of the United States...

Or maybe they have but them pretzels jst keep it from sinkin' in...

Or maybe, ahhhh, there's little for which it to sink into???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:39 PM

I ain't Q or A or G

If the National Guard from other states goes into New Orleans with all the snipers around, they need to defend themselves. They need to be turned over and put under local control using the correct protocol or they are not able to legaly shoot back or arrest anybody shooting at them. That would be inforcing the law.

And what was wrong with making the request? What was so hard about it? Just some stupid political reason that cost people their lives.

Anybody that can't itemize what they need is not worthy of cooking breakfast much less running a state.

Nobody is refuting the stuff that Marion dug up so it must all be true.

As a sidebar:
"A former political aid to William Jefferson (D-LA), Brett Pfeffer, 37, pleaded guilty to aiding and abetting bribery of a public official and conspiracy. Pfeffer faces 20 years in federal prison for his part in collecting bribes in exchange for Jefferson's help in promoting a pair of business deals in Africa, according to court documents filed Wednesday." http://www.axcessnews.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=7562

Nah. No corruption in Louisianna and definately no corruption by Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:00 PM

Snipers, Duck?????

Oh, Fox never got around to retracting the "Snipers Lie"...

This explains alot about where you are coming from.

Fox ain't news... It is propaganda...

Snipers, Duck??? You must be one of about 10 people left in the world that doen't know that story was debunked months ago...

I am disappoined in you... I thought you might be a worthy advesary but if yer entire universe is defined by Fox propaganda and lies then I will have to reconsider yer application...

However, I will keep it on file...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geo duck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:39 PM

You are suffering from Bobertosis Blindicus Termunus:

"NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- The evacuation of patients from Charity Hospital was halted Thursday after the facility came under sniper fire" twice. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/

NPR: "The situation in New Orleans continues to deteriorate, with widespread flooding and looting. The evacuation of thousands of people from the Superdome in the city was halted early Thursday when shots were fired at military helicopters. There are reports of armed carjackings."http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4828774

La Times: "Snipers fire on rescue efforts, and corpses litter public areas as rage builds among refugees.."
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/890812981.html?dids=890812981:890812981&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+2%2C+2005&author=Ellen+Barry%2C+Scott+Gold+and+Stephen+Braun&pub=Los+Angeles&edition=&startpage=A.1&desc=IN+KATRINA%27S+AFTERMATH%3A+CHAOS+AND+SURVIVAL

Are you talking about one incident on a certain bridge?
"But nearly three months later — and after repeated revisions of the official account of the incident and a lowering of the death toll to two — authorities said they were still trying to reconstruct what happened Sept. 4 on the Danziger Bridge. And on the city's east side, where the shootings occurred, two families that suffered casualties are preparing to come forward with stories radically different from those told by police." http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2005/251105sniperincident.htm

Well how about the others? Does the LA Times, CNN and NPR watch Fox and repeat what they say?

Oh Class, Class, Please be quiet. Perfesser Spongebobert has an announcementto make:
"There were no snipers in New orleans. That was propaganda spread by Fox News. Pay no attention to that man behind the screen. Now let us continue with our anti-Bush agenda"

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:52 PM

Problem is that all these links are dated, Duck....

Yeah, at the time, there were all kinmds of reports, 99% now debunked.... You are running old crap here, pal...

Get with the here and now....

Old lies are nuthin more than that: old lies, or mis-whatevers...

Don't matter much... Old (and badly reprorted) ews that ain'ty got any base of reaslity is just another lie in the big scheme of things...

Hey, what if I say that duck is messing with ltttle boys??? And like a few folks say that, yeah, du7ck is messin' with little boys and then it tunrns out that duck ain't messin' with little boys but only a few of the folks who said he/she is retratced their claims??? Then to hald the fols out there you still messin' with little boys....

This is exactly what has happened with the "sniper story"... I have heard doctors on non-Fox networks saying the story was false... Hey, these dotor would have known since they were the folks who were suupposedly being fired on...

This is nuthin' more than racist mythology!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:12 PM

Geoduck, you're just looking for an opportunity to get a few Democrats out of the government. You don't give a poop about actually solving any problems.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:14 PM

The "snipers" were actually people who were shooting guns into the air to get the attention of rescuers so the rescuers would know they were there. They were not shooting at rescue vehicles.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:23 PM

Getting the incomptent people out of the local government would be a start. Now where are your solutions?

If the snipers were debunked, Show me. Otherwise it is your opinion and not based on Fact, and show me where Fox is responsible.

No facts, no credibility. You just like to hear your self say it.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM

Getting rid of the local people and not doing anything about the incompetence at the top levels accomplishes nothing.

Here is the Snopes.com debunking of many of the lies and distortions that you have allowed yourself to be duped by...

http://www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/blanco.asp

I'm still looking for the text of Blanco's request. But here is the president's response to Blanco's request...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

"The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.

Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding."


Bush clearly states that FEMA has the job of determining what is needed, and then providing it. So if things that are needed are not provided, and since it was FEMA's responsibility to make sure that the "resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency" are provided, then responsibility for any inadequacies is the fault of FEMA.

My suggestions are the same as those of local and national disaster planners all over the US. Take FEMA back out of the DHS. Make the FEMA directorship a cabinet level position, answerable only to the president. Restore the funding that the Bush administration cut from FEMA's budget. Appoint and hire people for FEMA based on qualifications, and eliminate the practice of cronyistic appointments and hiring practices.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:24 AM

No creditable news agency found support for the reports of widespread sniping. The Guard killed two snipers, effectively stopping the handful of snipers who tried to take advantage of the situation. Right-wing bigoted bloggers are responsible for most of the garbage reports, and irresponsible repeaters of the garbage (read Geoduck) are not worthy of consideration.

News today: The NO Times-Picayune reports that The U. S. Army Corps of Engineers are going to install temporary gates to close off the canals in NO, and are importing stronger clay from the Gulf to build up the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet Canallevees in St. Bernard Parish before the nest hurricane season.
A 219 page report by the Corps of Engineers interagency Performance Evaluation Task Force outlines investigations into widespread levee failures. The federal government may be taking first steps to correct past failures. The American Society of Civil Engineers is acting as a consultant.

Pumps will still be inadequate by mid-summer, but it is hoped that the flood gates will keep surge and waves out of the Canal. We can only hope that another major hurricane doesn't hit the area next hurricane season.

Congress must approve the plans, however, before work can start by the Corps. The three gates could cost $105 million, peanuts compared to the $2 trillion plus wasted in the stupid efforts in Iraq.

See www.nola.com, articles from the Times-Picayune, Nov. 11, 2006.

The Interagency Performance Evaluation Team is conducting 'dozens' of evaluations of the failures of levees and levee walls. We can only hope that some action results from their efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:28 AM

Excuses, ctirticism, finger pointing and nothing constructive.

The only specific, credible sniper debunking I can find is about an incident one bridge. The rest are general "mainstream Media lied" with no specifics. Nothing indicating Fox was the culprit.

Bobert You are so unconvcining I wonder how you even convince yourself.

Just a bunch of knowitalls with an agenda.

Will the people at ground zero get enough signatures for recall?

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:38 AM

Here's an article that debunks many of the reports of snipers shooting at rescue personnel, and most of the rest of them have yet to be substantiated...

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12801034.htm

I got the information in my previous post from seeing interviews of people who were there at the time, stranded on rooftops waiting to be rescued. They said they did not witness anyone shooting at rescue personnel, but they did see people shooting in the air in order to alert rescue personnel to their presence and their need to be rescued.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:40 AM

Politics are heating up. Republicans have launched a petition to recall Governor Blanco. Recall petitions must be signed by at least one-third of the State's 2.8 million voters in 180 days in order to force an election, an outcome which is highly unlikely.

The move will further polarize an already strongly divided electorate.
The Baton Rouge Advocate:
www.2theadvocate.com/news/2180962.html

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:43 AM

Nothing constructive? See my 12 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM post, Gooeyduck. It's far more constructive than anything you've posted so far.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 AM

Carol C, yes, your 12:19 post is informative and it is unfortunate you and bobert fail to realize the main thrust of it. ".....FEMA, to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the effect of alleviating hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local populatiom......."

The operative phrase here is "caused by". Again, moving supplies, temporary housing, etc., PRIOR to Katrina would have only added to the amount of cleanup. I think that is a pretty fair assumption, don't you?

I will give you credit, Carol C, for your research efforts unlike that other fellow who simply pooh-poohs actual facts offered by others.

My question is still out there, "how many city/school buses were available for evacuation prior to Katrina hitting land."
I remember seeing pictures of hundreds, after Katrina, sitting in their parking areas under water.

Oh, one other thing, it was mentioned that hundreds od mobile homes, RVs, etc. are sitting empty around New Orleans because the city government can't decide where to place them. A'NIMBY" scenario I guess. Much was made of them being delivered without keys which is easily solved by a 5# hammer but no one is commenting on the thousands of displaced people living hundreds or thousands of miles away who can not return due to the lack of decision making by local government.

Ah yes, the inability to make decisions within that area continue, four months after the diaster.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:43 AM

Everything I have stated related to FEMA's inaction and snipers has been backed up my CarolC's research so go ahead and attack me if you don't like my sty7le but behind it you'll find my arguments based on facts...

Is folks like the Duck who, even after being presented with evidence that the sniping didn't happen, who continue to tell the story as if it did...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:59 AM

No attack from me, bobert. Paranoia on your part?
What I can ascertain is you make a bunch of statements early on, pronounce them as gospel, and then continue to ignore the ongoing comments of others.

Any comments on the hundreds of buses left sitting proir to Katrina hitting land or the mobile homes sitting unoccupied while local government continues to demonstrate its' inability for decision making?

Or, are some of the acusations made four months ago about the NO/LA governments' lack of performance perhaps being proven out by the ongoing indecisiveness? Hmmnn?

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:30 AM

My My that is constructive. Reverse the things demanded by the Democrats. Now what should be done in New Orleans?

Perfesser squarebob. CC says there were a "handful of snipers" Does that make you a liar?

She blames the sniper rumors on blogs, puts down blogs as being rightie, even though the uses blogs to support her argumnets, points us to a web page that mentions MSNBC and Fox but no blogs. I'm cornfused.

CC also seems to be blaming the absence of flood gates on the stingy administration when local "Activists" like you and her down there sucessfully blocked building floodgates that were supposed to be built in the 60's for peanuts compared to what they will cost now. Is that true?

Why is the electorate down there strongly divided? What are they divided about?

Why do things keep disapearing off of the louisiana.gov website like their plans for a disaster and Blanco's supposed official request for a state of emergency while Fed government docs are still there?

C'mon now, we need an ejucation.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:26 AM

Times-Picayune's articles make clear that throughout much of the 1990s, officials in Louisiana couldn't come up with state money needed to match federal funds. The resignation of Rep. Bob Livingston in December 1998 didn't help. (Livingston was chairman of the House Appropriations Committee; federal funding for flood control projects was one of his pet projects.) Nor did environmental laws, such as the Migratory Bird Act of 1918. (Construction on a hurricane protection levee in St. Charles Parish was halted for months because a great egret nesting area sat in the levee's path.)


"The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing."

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:53 AM

Snopes is not a "blog", goeyduck. It's a debunking site. That's wehre people use actual documentation and quotes from live people to debunk the BS that gets spread around in blogs and email chains. And its a website devoted to debunking urban legends, which is what that garbage about people shooting at rescur workers really is... an urban legend.

I'll respond to more later when I have more time.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:00 PM

The operative phrase here is "caused by". Again, moving supplies, temporary housing, etc., PRIOR to Katrina would have only added to the amount of cleanup. I think that is a pretty fair assumption, don't you?

No, I think that's quite a fallacious assumption. Moving temporary housing ahead of the storm obviously doesn't make sense. But it's a red herring to suggest that FEMA did the best job it could to get supplies in. Walmart was able to get supplies in before FEMA did. And in many instances, when people did get supplies in, FEMA turned them away.

I have seen the numbers on this, but it's going to take some effort to track them down. I don't have time right now, so I'll work on that later. But from the numbers I saw, there weren't anywhere near enough school buses to make much of a difference in the numbers of people left behind.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:10 PM

My second paragraph in my last post was in response to this:

My question is still out there, "how many city/school buses were available for evacuation prior to Katrina hitting land."

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:11 PM

Carol C, this post of mine is probably not too important but it demonstrates my tenacity for accuracy. There are three groups of defiinitions for "blog". Allow me to quote one of the most common ones; * noun: a shared on-line journal......

I have never heard the term "debunking site". Nor is it listed as such in any Dictionary or obtainable thru a "Google" search. You can, however, locate sites that deal with "Urban Legends". It is my opinion that Hurricane Katrina and its' subsequent aftermath does fall under that catagory.

Snopes has close to 7000 registered members which to equates to a sharing process. If one would contemplate this site as a separate entity, it would suggest that Snopes is not much different than this thread. Which is a collection of people, most often reading what they want to read, and using that information to try to convince others of its' authenticity

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:21 PM

Okay, one thing at a time is fair. I really would like to see the numbers on the buses. The aerial views of bus parking showed hundres, still sitting there but now submerged. You did give a response but not an answer.

And I was not being facetious, not getting in ahead of the storm has been a point directed against the Feds. (read GWB) Someone will still have to show me where FEMA turned away supplies from, say, Mississippi.

And, Walmart had stores in the storm stricken area.