BS: KatrinaGate

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM

And that would have evacuated New Orleans?

That would have averted the disaster?

Why don't you just admit that you are using a disater as a tool for your anti Bush campaign?

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:01 PM

So are you saying that there has never been any purpose for federal spending for responding to disasters, GUEST??? Sho nuff sounds as if you are...

"Well, Heck, Ralph... They can't float outta that mess on a dollar bill..."

Is that where you are coming from, GUEST??? Okay, lets say that instead of Katrina, a nuclear device had been detonated in New Orleans... Would you still advocate the use of an unfunded evacuation plan or would you, like with Katrina, just let the Red Cross and churches do the best that they could???

Maybe this is a larger question about what you expect for your federal tax dollars... I expect the feds to have a plan and funding inplace to deal with disasters...

Apparently, we don't agree on that...

As for Katrina being some kind of tool for bashing Bush let me remind you how this thread started... On another thread I challenged a Bush-supporter to pick any danged policy Bush policy that that GUEST chooze that he or she thought they could defend... Thie GUEST chooze Katrina... That's the way it went down, my friend... One of yer buddies chooze Katrina and as eye I have not read too much in the way of a health rebuttal to the points I made last October...

And please don't confuse disasters with responses to disasters... Here, Bush get a break... He didn't 'cause Katrina... All ghe did was gut the funding for the one federal agency that had for many years had the resources and staff to coordinate disaster relief...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:09 PM

IF a nuclear device had been detonated in New Orleans, an evacuation would have been unecessary. There would have been no one to evacuate.

Prevention of e nuclear terrorist act is the way to avoid that disaster which GWB is concentrating on. Catch the bastards before they do it. But people bitch and complain about efforts to detect them.

They want to be protected but how? Mental telethapy?

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:42 PM

Question:
Guest, are you saying that the disaster in New Orleans was handled properly and as efficiently as possible?
If not, where were the errors made so that we can correct the problems in time for the next disaster.

Observation: The Canadian government heard of the impending disaster and sent help In ADVANCE. They were the first to arrive and provide aid. Why? And why not local agencies?

Last, Telling people to evacuate when they have NO means of accomplishing it is absurd. There will always be people who will insist on remaining; there always are. And sometimes they die. But there were those who would have left in a minute if they had the bus fare or a reliable car.
Evacuation plans have to include firm contracts guaranteeing rides for anyone who needs them. School buses, Amtrack, planes, whatever.
One story that came out of NO was of a young man who STOLE a school bus and saved a bunch of people. He was supposed to be arrested for the theft.

Tons of ice circulating around the country, temporary housing rotting away out of state - these are unacceptable wastes of money and effort.

For the record,this disaster would have been as bad or worse under a Democratic president. BUT the National Guard would have been stronger were many of them not overseas. AND the National Guard is desperate for new recruits to handle local emergencies but can't get them because sensible most people don't want to be sent off to the Middle East to die in a car bomb. Bush's rush into war using outright lies is the cause of that current disaster in the making.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

Well, Sins, thanks for comin' into this twp person discussion/debate... As you can plainly see, GUEST is on the defensive using whatever he or she can grasp...

When I mention the possibility of a nuclear device being used in N.O. GUEST makes the assumption that it it kills everyone in N.O. and then evades the question I asked.. Normal... This has been going on now for months...

Then GUEST says we should play nice, whcih I have purdy much tried to do with the exception of calling folk knotheads now and then and occasionally getting a tad testy under the barrage of personal attacks but, hey, So I go laong with the "no slamin" and then GUEST says somethin' along the lines that I'm a rodeo clown and oughta get back in the barrel????

See, like go figure... Must be nice to bge GUEST and make up whatever you want, distort wahtever you want and...

...change the rules whenever you want...

Hey, I've been here going on 10 months and over 600 posts and answered every single rebuttal that Bush apologists have thrown my way...

Even the dumb questions that were asked just as diversioary debating tactics that if were used in a court of law the oppsoing lawyer would ask for "relevance"...

And, yes, Sins, I have made the point over and over why there wasn't any money left for FEMA... FEMA is just Georges Bush's private little slush fund to be robbed for his various wars...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

Sinsull:

Thanks for stating the obvious:
For the record, this disaster would have been as bad or worse under a Democratic president.

Nothing GWB could have done would have averted this disaster.

I don't know about needing firms and contracts when a city has it's own public transportation system "rotting away". Also there are emergency services to transprot the infirm elderly.

Naturally some people will resist but the can't say they were not told.

GWB is partially responsible for the rescue after the disaster. That effort would have been gratefully reduced and simplified if a mandatory evacuation had been enforced during the two whole days before the hurricane hit.

Bobert uses the disaster like a hammer to pound a stake into GWB without regard to any local authorities whom are more at fault. If he was as compasionate as he claims he would be mad at the folks that are really at fault.

In other words just another nasty, one way Bush rant by another Bush hater, blinded with anger.

Anybody that disagrees is labled a Bushite in Bobert's steel trap mind while he points to the number of posts as if that proves him right.

If he is so right, why are there so many posts?

Bobert, you have not put forth anything that GWB could have done to avoid the disaster and loss of life, even after 600 +- posts.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:18 PM

Sinsull:

No. It was far from efficient. Did you hear that Amtrack offered to haul people out?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/10/AR2005091001529.html

"...In fact, while the last regularly scheduled train out of town had left a few hours earlier, Amtrak had decided to run a "dead-head" train that evening (Sep 27th)to move equipment out of the city. It was headed for high ground in Macomb, Miss., and it had room for several hundred passengers. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined."

So the ghost train left New Orleans at 8:30 p.m., with no passengers on board..."

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:16 PM

LOL, GUEST, GUEST???

First of all, knowin' Sins as I do I think there was one of those typo tyhings in sayin' that the response to Katrina would have been worse under the Dems...

While I ain't much of a Dem, their record with disasters will Clinton was makin' the calls in the 90's was a lot better than what we've seen with the Bush folks...

Oh yeah, Bush did funnel millions and millions into the hands of folks in Florida, many of whom suffered no real damage, after a hurricasn in '04.... But this had nuthin' do do with disaaster relief but politics... Bush has never been shy in spending other people's money to stay in power.....

And GUEST continues to pound this "blame-to-locals" drum as if they had the ****contracts**** funded and in place to make evertything work...

What could Bush have done??? Well, GUEST, apparently are avoiding the the main crux of this debate as if it was a radiation pit... He could have funded FEMA!!!! What don't you undersatnd here??? Is this too over yer head, 'er what??? No, rather than put his koney where his mouth was, Bush used FEMA as a slush fund to fund DHS and his war in Iraq... FEAM was gutted!!! What don't you understand aboput this???

Okay, hey, I can live with you just comin' out and saying that the feds shouldn't be into helping communities with overwhelingh disasters... I've asked you repeatedly to say that and if you would just say that, we could just say that we have differences of opinion on what the federal government's role is or ain't... But, no, you won't answer that question... Ain't rocket surgery here, GUEST... If that's your opinion then fine... I can, without agreein' with ya', live with that...

But, no... You continue yer defending Bush who:

1. Gutted FEMA

2. Whoes administaration failed to mobilize what little resources it had until 36 years after Katrina had passed

3. After 9/11 and his constant campaingn trail speech telling folks that he was "working hard" to "protect the American people..."

But that's the nice thing about being a GUEST... Since you have no transparancy, you can say whatever you want irregardless of facts and reality....

I don't have that luxarty but it don't matter 'cause I have the truth and guess what, GUEST??? The historians will get this one right...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM

Not a typo, Bobert. Sad but true the Democrats would have spent the next months pointing the finger and covering their butts too.

Like it or not, GUEST, Katrina is one of the black eyes on the Bush administration. It was however a disaster waiting to happen. That blame lies with federal, state and local authorities for the past 25 years.

Conditions in New Orleans are horrible even now - a year after the original event. That is Bush's fault. And you can bet an oil field that had this hurricane flattened a city in his home state, help would have been fast and furious. Had a few thousand well-coiffed Republican ladies been trapped in a sports arena, no amount of money, time, or manpower would have been spared to get them fresh drinking water.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

Whoes administaration failed to mobilize what little resources it had until 36 years after Katrina had passed ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I guess we won't know until 35 years from now.

Are you ready to admit that the disaster was mostly the fault of people other tham Bush?

How's your newest "gate" gate doing?

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:16 PM

All of these "had this of happened" or "had that have happened" is speculation and rhetoric.

If the local authorities "had done their job" What would the outcome have been?

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM

No, it's Bush's fault...

He makes the decisions on where the money goes or doesn't go and he gutted FEMA... Pure and simple...

And his administration didn't order the feds to mobilize until 36 hours after Katrina inspite of requests from both state and local governments and warnings from Micheal Brown some 2 days before Katrina that this was going to be the "big one"... It won't take 35 years for the fact to come out... It's allready out...

As fir the toher "gate" thread, I've asked for a anme change and and when I get it, more folks will get into the discussion... BTW, GUEST, wouldn't it bother you if the Dems were in power and takin' yer hard earned tax dollars and buyin' votes with them???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM

Another IF.

What if New Orleans had been evacuated?

If the Dems were in power would you be happy?

Did Bush cause them not to evacuate?

What could Bush have done to avoid the disaster?

What could the local authorities done to avoid the disaster?

What politician does not buy votes with our tax dollar?
Did you read this in you favorite corporate, for profit, leftwing rag?:

Rejection of 'Earmarks' Angers Democrats
GOP Subcommittee Chairman Says He Won't Honor Party's Projects in Bill

By Dan Morgan and Juliet Eilperin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, November 7, 2003; Page A06

Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), the House's second-ranking Democrat, hoped to use funds from a $138 billion spending bill now before Congress to upgrade the computer system at St. Mary's College of Maryland, modernize laboratories at the University of Maryland School of Pharmacy, and support a nonprofit group that repairs the homes of poor, elderly and disabled Marylanders.

Now those local projects, along with hundreds of others in districts represented by House Democrats, are jeopardized by an unusually nasty political battle that threatens to upset the traditional bipartisan comity of the House Appropriations Committee.
___ More On Congress ___

• Today in Congress: Today's floor and committee schedules

• Hot Bills: Legislation that editors of Congressional Quarterly are watching this week

• Appropriations Countdown: CQ tracks the progress of federal spending bills

• In Session: The Post's Monday preview of the upcoming week on Capitol Hill

• More on Congress: Visit Congressional Quarterly at CQ.com


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Rep. Ralph Regula (R-Ohio), who chairs the subcommittee that controls spending on education, health and jobs programs, recently stunned Democrats by announcing plans to reject every "earmarked" project they are seeking in the final, compromise version of the bill, which funds the departments of Education, Health and Human Services, and Labor.

His reason: When the House passed the bill on July 10, all 198 Democrats present voted against it, several of them saying it shortchanged education programs. The bill passed, 215 to 208.

Regula defended his decision in a letter to Rep. David R. Obey (Wis.), the committee's ranking Democrat, saying: "It is not unique for chairmen -- and ranking members, for that matter -- to use a member's support, or lack of it, as a factor in sorting through the thousands of program and project requests received during the year."

Last year's bill included 1,859 local projects -- sometimes called "pork" -- requested by House members, with a value of $896 million. By tradition, the projects have been divided fairly evenly between Republicans and Democrats.

Some say the rapid growth of such lawmaker-backed projects has injected a political element into the awarding of grants that are supposed to be based on merit and evenhanded formulas. Before Republicans took control of Congress in 1995, the Education-HHS-Labor bill was largely free of the earmarks.

But the decision by Regula, a moderate Republican with a history of working collegially with the other party, has infuriated Democrats. Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) called the action an "abuse of power." Obey said Democrats were being punished for voting their consciences in July.

And Hoyer said: "To tell the 130 million people represented by Democrats that they are shut out from getting health and education projects is consistent with the undemocratic, autocratic, confrontational process that's being followed by House Republicans."

But Regula has held his ground. He said in his letter to Obey that the several hundred million dollars initially set aside for Democratic projects will be directed to school-related programs across the country.

Hinting that the nine Republicans and one independent who voted against the bill would also go without their projects, he wrote: "I am certainly not trying to intimidate members."

But that is exactly what Democrats say Republicans are trying to do.

Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) and other House conservatives have long chafed at the clubby, bipartisan environment of the powerful Appropriations Committee, where Congress's constitutionally mandated power over the nation's purse strings resides.

Conservatives regularly brand the committee -- regardless of which party controls it -- as a big-spending body that frustrates all efforts to control the federal budget.

Regula has indicated he will seek the committee's chairmanship when Rep. C.W. "Bill" Young (R-Fla.) steps down in 2005. Democrats conjecture that Regula may be trying to show GOP colleagues he is fiscally conservative and tough enough to deserve their votes.

"I think Ralph Regula is a good person," Hoyer said. "I think he's been put in a position by a very hard-nosed caucus and by his own desire to make a statement."

Regula said in an interview: "In the final analysis, the chairman has a lot of decisions to make. On the other hand we're a team, and we reflect Republican policy."

The fight threatens to polarize a committee that has been an "oasis of decency and sanity," said Allen Schick, a fellow at the Brookings Institution.

No panel in Congress has been more closely identified with liberal Democratic priorities of the past 40 years than Regula's subcommittee. It funds the Head Start preschool program, federal aid to education, job training, aid to families unable to pay winter heating bills and other initiatives dating to President Lyndon B. Johnson's War on Poverty and Great Society agenda.

A Who's Who of top House Democrats serves on it. Pelosi was a member until recently. Hoyer, Obey, Nita Lowey (N.Y.), who chairs the party's campaign committee in the House, and her predecessor in that job, Patrick J. Kennedy (R.I.), serve on it. So do Reps. Jesse L. Jackson Jr. (Ill.), a high-profile black lawmaker, and Lucille Roybal-Allard (Calif.), a prominent Hispanic lawmaker.

Democrats say the real victims of Regula's policy will be the poor. Of the nation's 50 poorest congressional districts, 42 are represented by Democrats. Democrats say schools and community groups in these districts often need help from their member of Congress for worthwhile projects.

Hoyer had hoped to get $400, 000 -- the same as last year -- for a group called Rebuilding Together. The nonprofit organization works with volunteers to rehabilitate homes of the poor, elderly and disabled.

Rep. Benjamin L. Cardin (D-Md.) was seeking $2 million for the Sheppard Pratt Health System in Towson, and $560,000 for the Anne Arundel County Health Department to enhance bioterrorism preparations.

Other Maryland Democratic House members had asked for funds for improvements at the Holy Cross Hospital in Silver Spring, a community health facility in Baltimore County and the Aberdeen magnet high school.

But Regula signaled in his letter to Obey that he would not waver.

"I do believe that the House bill was a fair and balanced bill that deserved the support of members from both sides of the aisle," he wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM

Question #1: There was no way in Heck thaT NO was going to be evacuated without contracts in place to do it... And there's no city in the US, or world fir that matter (kuwauit being the exception) that has the dough to tie up that would be required to evacuate their city...

Qusetion #2: No, the Dems are no more than the lesser of two evils...

Guestion #3: Yes, Bush is mostly responsible for not funding the exact program, FEMA, that was the safety net that Americans thought was under them...

Qustion #4: You love this dumb qusetion, GUEST... Nuthin' at all... Bush couldn't have avoided the disaster... It's the response to the disaster is where Bush came up short...

Question #5: The local and state governments were ***over whelmed***... They were beggin' for assistence from the feds... Blanco, who the Bush apologists had accused of being asleep at the wheel, has provided thousands of documents related to her requests... Bush, on the opther hand, is sandbaggin' on releasing what he was doinhjg in response to the requests...

Qestion #6: Yezzir, there is a certain amount of tax dollars that go toward buyin' votes, be it as little as the printing and mailings that Congressfolk do to make themselves look as if they actually care about their constituents, or rainin' billions of dollars down in states that where Bush won by 2 or 3 points in 2000... Big difference between a letter and a check for 40 grand for imagined damages that Farmer Brown didn't even know occured on his farm... And fir the record, my leftwing rag is the Washington Post and New York Times whci both supoorted Bush's invasion of Iraq...

As fir the rest of the cut 'n paste Republican blog... Responding to them is an exercie in futility... They are financed by very rich people who are enjoyin' the heck out of this supposed economic recovery where 90% of Americans are doing worse than 6 years ago...

Yeah, these blogs are nuthing but propaganda... They pick thru piles of facts and only print those which make their side look as if it's the moral side when in fact these folks who finance these blogs are nuthin' but thieves who are rippin' off my hard earned tax dollars...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM

The answer to question #1 is evasive bullshit. They had emergency evauation plans and they did not follow their plan.

The answer to question# 2 I presume is no, you still wouldn't be happy.

The answer to #3 has nothing to do with the emergency plans of the local and state authorities.

The answer to #4 I presume is Bush could have done nothing to avoid the disaster.

the answer to question #5 does not apply to the time before the hurricane made landfall. The time when they could have and should have evacuated.

#6 was from the Washington Post. YOUR BEACON OF TRUTH, Not a blog. Can you see "Washington Post Staff Writers" or do you ignore it and bluster along? You claim something as being a lie before you even read it to see if it is a lie.

New Orleans Times-Picayune article dated August 28:

NEW ORLEANS (AP) In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, the city set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including the Superdome.

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.

The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin’s court to carry out the evacuation order. With a 5-day heads-up, he had the authority to use any and all services to evacuate all residents from the city, as documented in a city emergency preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and failing to make full use of resources available within city limits, Nagin and his administration missed the boat.

Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert have displayed lethal, mind boggling incompetence before, during and after Katrina.

As for Mayor Nagin, he and his profile in pathetic leadership police chief should resign as well. That city s government is incompetent from one end to the other. The people of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of clowns is capable of giving them.

If you’re keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses that could have carried 33,350 people out of New Orleansin one tripget ruined in the floods. Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. Or it probably would have been if they’d bothered to follow it.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:19 PM

"has provided thousands of documents related to her requests"

Have you looked at those documents? I unlike you have taken the time to browse an herer is the first one I looked at:


Report to the Goveners Office on media coverage of the New Orleans Levee Board.

The Board of Comissioners of the Orleans Levee District
New Orleans, La.

PROTECTING YOU AND YOUR FAMILY

Response to the NBC Nightly News investigative report of 9/14/05

s the Orleans Levee Board doing its job?

Critics allege corruption, charge the board with wasteful spending

The unveiling of the Mardi Gras Fountain was celebrated this year in typical New Orleans style. The cost of $2.4 million was paid by the Orleans Levee Board, the state agency whose main job is to protect the levees surrounding New Orleans -- the same levees that failed after Katrina hit....

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:09 AM

Bobert:

Here is a hot one among the thousands of documents. It is titled Goveners Correspondence 1 August 27 2005:


August 27, 2005

The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005,(the day before the letter was written) and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the
capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that
supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect
property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster.

I am specifically requesting

emergency protective measures, (what is that?)

direct Federal Assistance, ($9 million later raised to $130 million)

Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, (Before the disaster?)

Special Needs Program assistance, (what is that?)

and debris removal."(before the debris is there?)

Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance
needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain
Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in
Enclosure A.

The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency:

. Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing on Standby.

. Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening Shelters and
establishing on Standby.

. Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.

. Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas.

. Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the
evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions.

. Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD):
Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi.

The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:

. FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.

I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act.

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.

(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable).

(b) Specify the type of assistance requested.

In accordance with 44 CFR � 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:
1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and
rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.
2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;
3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and
4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local
jurisdictional matters.

In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an
immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.

Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris.

I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf.

Sincerely,

Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor


I don't see any mention of anything she needed before the storm hit. Am I missing something? She said they were evacuating and did not ask for any assistance fot that.

Bobert points to thousands of documents as proof that he is right and he does not know what is in the documents. He is too lazy to read them. They are proof that Blanco, the local and state authorities failed the people of New Orleans and Lousianna.

It is obvious that these things she is requesting are for after the storm passes, not during or before the storm.

In other words she said she had it under control but she would need help afterwards.

On August 27, 2005, Governor Blanco speaking on Hurricane Katrina told the media in Jefferson Parish "I believe we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about."

I touoght it was Bush that did the bragging.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:08 AM

I'll respond in length later to yer posts, GUEST, but the manner in which the so-called "article" in the New Orleans Times-Picayne is written is very much the way "editorials" are written... It does not have the jounalistic integrity that I'm used to from reading the Post or NY Times...

We have a paper here in the DC area, The Washington Times, that lacks jounalistic integrity also... The Editorial page is thwe entire front page and is filled with suppositions and opinions...

More later... Tractor and bush-hog have laid claim to my day...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:35 AM

I go tractorin' and bush hoggin' too.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:43 PM

You are a hoot, GUEST... Apparently you don't have any real experience in real live governemnt, do you???

Okay, GUEST, rather than go point by point here lets just take it slow and easy 'cause when we go point by point you tend to not respond to various points...

So you think that my response to yer question about following plans is "bulls**t"... Lets talk a little about plans here...

This isn't about wheteher or not there was a so-called plan in place to evaculate NO but the realities of having a workable plan in place...

So let me ask you a few questions...

1. Take an average metropolitan area of 1,000,000 people... Do you have any idea what the cost would be to transport yer popultaion out of that area to a safe place???

2. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to have contracts in place to house and feed yer population for, say, 30 days???

3. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to restore your community back to where it is livable so that your population can return???

These are just the basics... Then throw in the disabled, the incarcerated, those folks living in homeless shelters, battered woman centers, half way houses... Throw in police protection of the paroperties of those evaculated, the colleges, the hospitals, yer movable assests... And not to forget, the first responders, the folks who will be there fighting the disaster, be them firemen or teams of folks with boats for rescue...

See, GUEST, you seem to want to minimalize the realities of a full scale evacuation by saying merely, "Well, there was a plan"... This is just one area where you an I differ... Plans are a dime a dozen... Any kid with a masters degree in public administartion can write a "plan"...

Problem is, when the chips are down, what we see is that underfunded plans don't work...

Now back to those budget work sessions that I've brought up a time or two... Cities and towns are strapped for cash... Yeah, they might have someone on staff that can put together a "plan" but if you go back to the questions I asked you, what do you really think is going to happen when the "big one" hits???

I mean, let's get real here, GUEST... You live in some kind of dream world if uyou think that major population centers have those kinds of readially available resources... A complete dream world bnot based on a smidgen of real world knowledge or wisdom...

Now TO WIT:

Even the Bush administration recognized that a major population cneter could become so "over whelmed" that it would need federal assistence to deal with a disaster... Alot of folks before him allreadt knew this but Bush is a hard head and would rather try reinventin' the wheel rather than accept the fact that the wheel allready esisted... Yes, the entire idea of FEMA had recognized that there were situations where local or regionial (COG's) governments could be overwhelmed... But in Bush's reinventing the wheel his own folks siad, "Hey, we need a plan in case a local or regional government is overwhelmed" and thus the National Response Plan...

Hey, the Dems didn't force this on them... They wrote it and in doing so recognized that local or regional governemnts could be over whelmed by a disaster...

Now before we go on will you admit that hanging endlessly on yer argument that NO had a "plan" is somewhat simplistic and not based on the real world???

Hey, we have to start somewhere...

A mean, if you want tro debate this, then lets get it on right here where it all begins...

You stickin' with yer premise that major population centers ahve adaquate and funded evaculation plans???

If that is yer argument then we will just have to stay right here until you better understand the real world...

No slam intended....

And no, you may think this is all a lot of "bulls**t" but I not only have been in budget sessions but also have a purdy good grasp of public administration...

But if this is where we fight it out, then this is where we fight it out... No reason to delve into a greater discussion until you at least accept the same realities that the Bush staffers accepted in writing the National Response Plan...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:54 PM

#1 If the plan was unworkable, Why was it the plan? Why would they have an unworkable plan? That is a big a failure as not following the plan. Either way it is a failure of the state and local authorities.

I hear form Poppagator that the evacuation was successful because 80% of the people were evacuated. How about the other 20%? What was the problem there?

Sending people to the Super Dome and the convention center was a mistake. It was discovered in an evacuation in 1998 that the Superdome was not suitable.

So having an unworkable evacuation plan lets them off of the hook? Maybe the NRP was unworkable too.

How did evacuations in the surrounding areas go? Hurricane Rita? They learned their lesson and got the people out of there in time.

You can accuse me of not being in the real world all you want but it does not make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:53 AM

No, GUEST, you are mistaken... And in denial... You apparently do not live in the real world... No slam, just fact...

Underfunded plans are a joke... I know... The business I owned and operated for two decades was in flood plane and because of this the town had to pay annual insurance premiums to FEMA for the businesses and homes in the flood plane and the businesses in the flood plane were required to file evacuation plans yearly with the town... These mimie plans become part of the larger ones... But these pieces of the ovarall plans are written by small business owners who do not have the aswsests to have contracts in place to carry out their plans.. That is reality... So it comes down to small business owners having plans in place where listed family members will carry out the evacuation of anything in the business that isn't anchored down...

I recall a freekish thunderstorm about 6 years ago that within an hour flooded the flood plane... There was no way that any small business had the resources or time to evacuate... Might of fact, there was one area where the water got to 4 feet deep and a buddy's auto repair shop was right in that bowl and there was no real way out short of swimming, ropes or a boat...

Now you can say that my buddy is the one responsible for not having a sufficient plan in place and while ***technically*** you are correct in a ***real wiorld*** sense you are very niave...

My buddy's business is just a micro-cosim of the real world...

This is why FERMA was created... There has long been an understanding that there is a point where areas of the country need disaster aid beyond that which might be addressed in underfunded plans...

Might of fact, the idea of FEMA is a bargain since for cities and towns would to have to consume resources that they clearly don't have by raiasing your and my taxes to have costly resources and assests available in place for the "big one"... If each town and city had to do this there would be alot of wasted taxes going to provide overlapping plans...

Think about it this way... Take the interstate highway system, for example... What if eash county and town had to fund, build and maintain the portion of the system that ran thru there county or town???

I mean no disrespect here but, get beyond the pipe dreams, GUEST...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM

What the hell are you talking about?

Flood plains get flooded frequently. It just happened in the northeast. Where were the cries of FEMA screwed up from the Northeast?

When hurricane Rita hit it devastated Lake Charles like NO was devastated by Katrina but the place was evacuated and there were no deaths.

Was their plan funded? Were contracts in place? How did they pull it off?

Your underfunded plan claim is bogus. You have your nose up WAPOs ass so far you are not aware of happenings in the real world.

Rita whips Lake Charles, but no deaths reported
By Yancey Roy, Gannett News Service
LAKE CHARLES, La. — Hurricane Rita pulverized this petrochemical and casino city Saturday, wiping out electricity, phones and running water.

Yet it was not the worst-case scenario that some had predicted just days ago: 10 feet of water running through downtown Lake Charles. That was because virtually everyone in Cameron and Calcasieu parishes left the area at least a day before the storm hit. There were reports of very few injuries and no fatalities 12 hours after Rita passed through.

There were hundreds and hundreds of felled trees, flooded neighborhoods and boathouses, smashed windows, collapsed roofs, strewn carports and free-swinging electrical lines.

Bayou Contraband, which runs through the south side of town, spilled over its banks in areas and filled upscale neighborhoods.

A string of 13 consecutive utility poles were keeled over and rested on a usually busy highway near the McNeese State University farm south of town.

The wind howled all night, as Rita made landfall near the Texas-Louisiana border. A lower pitched, muscular hum signaled stronger blasts that peeled off roofs.

"Oooh, I never heard any wind like that in my life," said Donald Lewis, who walked around town surveying damage Saturday morning.

During the night, the storm ripped the roof off an adjacent apartment complex and slammed it into his house, he said.

"When I looked out, my mind flipped," he said, "because I never seen anything like that."

Further south, in low-lying, marsh-filled Cameron Parish, five feet of water stopped sheriff's deputies cold at the Gibbstown bridge, which spans the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway about 20 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico.

There was about nine feet of standing water in Holly Beach, a Cameron Parish community of ramshackle fish camps and weather-beaten houses on the shore, said Larry Jinks, Johnson Bayou fire chief.

"We can't get down there with a helicopter or a flat boat," said Tracey Webb, of the Cameron Parish Office of Emergency Preparedness.

In Lake Charles, Harrah's Pride, one of the floating casinos, came unhinged from its moorings.

Officials advised people not to come back — and added that they won't say until Monday when residents can return. Power could be out longer.

Lake Charles and most surrounding towns imposed curfews, most of them ordering people to be off the streets from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:08 AM

"Flood plains get flooded frequently." (GUEST, last post)

Oh contrare, GUEST...

See, this perhaps is why I find yer endless cut 'n pastes hardly worth the time... Call up yer local FEMA representative and ask him or her if that statement alone is true...

See, that's why we're not gettin' anywhere... You do not live in the real world when it comes to facts...

Okay, I'll save you the embarassment of havin' to make the call...

Yer statement that "flood plains get flooded frequently" is not accurate... If you were to just look at any FEMA flood plain map in any area where you have a stream you'll find elevations within the flood plain district that will flood every 100 years and other areas that will flood every 500 years!!!

But don't believe me... Make the call if you wish...

Unfortunately, I have a little experience with this as I have owned and still own property in flood plains and pay my annual $800 for FEMA insurance for the one I own now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

So flood plains do not get flooded? Gee, why do the call them flood plains? Why do you buy flood insurance?

Everybody time I go to a settlement I hear the crap about a 100 year flood plain and flood insurance. In my lifetime I have seen several 100 year flood plains get flooded more than once. Hence from my REAL WORLD experience I know flood plains flood frequently.

It just happened in the northeast. Where were the cries of "FEMA screwed up" from the Northeast?

Bobert your ass has been whipped. You don't have a leg to stand on and you are clutching at straws.

But keep on flailing away like Godzilla fending off the rockets.

We have been all thru "bush negelected the levees" "bush dismantled FEMA" "Bush would have screwed up FEMA even if the Dems had left it alone" It all boils down to "I don't like Bush so I will light one of my stink bombs to make him look bad"

Let's get back to what Bush could have done to avert the diasater in New Orleans.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:37 PM

LOL, GUEST...

It's yer as that has been whipped...

You have not rebutted any of the initian positions I laid out... And now that I'm tryinh' to hold yer feet to the fire on one thing at a time you've come up with nuthin' other than yer usual: What could Bush have done to avert the disaster...

What??? Have you appointed Bush as God, 'er what??? For the um-teeenth time, Bush couldn't have averted the danged hurricane... Yeah, the boy has grasped as much power as any executive in modern history but to stop hurricans??? Nah..

What Bush has done isn't about avertin' disasters, which come in natural and man-made forms, but in how well (or not) he was prepared to step in with real plans and real assests to "protect the American people"...

The proof is in the pudding...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM

BTW, what do you think Bush thought "We need everything you've got..." (Memo written to Bush by Gov. Blanco, August 29th)????

BTW, part 2... Are you even aware that FEMA had promised 500 buses. GUEST??? Nah, didn't think so...

So if yer in a 24/7 emergency like Blanco was and yer havin' to make decisions at warp speed and folks are tellin' you that FEMA has 500 buses "standing by".... What, are y6ou going to stop everything else to be sure that FEMA is telling the truth???

Yeah, GUEST... I ain't too sure what you been smokin' but pass a little of it over this direction, will ya'???

Then by Sept 2nd, Blanco complained to the White House that requests to the feds for "40,000 more troops, ice, waterand food, buses, base camps, staging areas, amphibious vehicles, mobile morgues, rescue teams, housing, airlift and communications systems" to FEMA failed to come thru...

Do you have a clue yet, GUEST, as to why FEMA was unable to respond???

No dough, pal... It had been diverted into the DHS and the war in Iraq...

And you have the audasity to suggest that it is my ass who is reachin' fir straws....

LOL....

I have come to the conclusion that you, GUEST, are clueless...

Like I said... LOL... Yer arguments are weaker than branch water...

Might of fact, branch water would kick yer butt every way to Sunday....

BTW, you never answerted a very basic question in this discussion... Do you feel the federal governemnt has any responsibility in responding to regional disasters????

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM

Bush on the brain Bobert:

I am asking again what amount of money would it have taken under the Bush administration, to avert the disaster from happening?

Spending any amount of money on Fema could not have averted the disaster. Their job is to help AFTER the disaster.

Is FEMA in the rescue business?

Yes the federal governemnt has a responsibility in responding to regional disasters.

The key word here is responding, not jumping in there and wresting control from the first responders to try to prevent the disaster. Here are people drowning and in need of rescue because the levee system was flawed and neglected for years before the Bush adminstration, because they were not evacuated by the first responders before the disaster struck.

You are not only clueless but growing more belligerent as your bias and ignorance become more obvious.

I suppose after hurricane Andrew everything was fine? According to the WSJ, "FEMA hit its nadir with its 1992 handling of Hurricane Andrew"

As for promises, Blanco promised "we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about."

Why FEMA was unable to respond??? BHecause the Dems insisited on making FEMA part of DHS instead of leaving it alone. Now they want to change it back.

But it didn't say that in the Washington Post so you will have to fight that assertion until the last jet fighter fires the last rocket at your tough hide and you finally go down in flames.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:45 AM

Correction: Is FEMA in the rescue business? Should have been is FEMA in the Evacuation business?

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:23 AM

How much money???

I don't know... I'm not an engineer...

Are you??? If so, how much money do you think???

One thing fir sure is that the folks who are engineers asked for $100M from the Bush administration for maintenance the year before Katrina but got just 17% of what was requested...

Yes, that's right... Tight-wad Bush only funded the Army Corpes of Enginners at 17%!!!

And worse yet, GUEST: Had Bush funded the the levee system at 100%, that was just for Cat 3 protection!!!

Now I know you will continue the only line of argument that you have (which, BTW, is weak) in askin' folks like P-Gator and me to prove that had Bush funded the levee at what the Army Corpes of Engineers requested that NO would not have flooded...

Yeah, if this was Philosophy 101 yer line of defense is equivelant to the ol' "Prove you exist" question...

In other words...

You are flailin' at this point of the discussion with a rather juvinilistic line of reasoning... And attacking the Washington Post, while it may play well to rednecks, is nuthin' more than a not-so-clever line of defense either...

Might of fact, your rebuttals, if that's what you call them have become boringly predictable...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:32 AM

So what amount of money would have done the job? Sounds pretty simple to me. The amount requested?

What would have that amount have accomplished in the time frame?

Your assertion taht underfunding caused the disaster is bogus.

Did the levees fail because of lack of maintenence?

You see the disaster as a political opportunity and you just keep ragging on about the talking points provided to you by the Washington Post.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 07:43 AM

Well, well, well...

Here we are on the eve of the 1at anniversary of Katrina and the subsequent "gate" and if one will just read GUEST's last post that's about all that the Bush apologists have come up to explain the absolute dismal failure on Bush and this folks to put their money where their post-9/11 mounths were in "protecting the American people"...

Ha!

No make that haha...

And the Bush failure isn't about "politics" but policies... That's what Bushites can't understand... Yeah, they constantly make references about folks hatin' Bush and bashin' Bush but when it comes down to it there are a lot of us who just see a string of failed and ill-thought-out policies my a very corrupt administartion that has used every little political trick in the book...

Yeah, I've made no bones about my distrust of the Dems but I genuinely hope they take one house of Congress so that we will finally get a real investigation into why the Bush administartion blew it's response to Katrina...

...among ohter scandals which have been swept under Karl Rove's carpet...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 01:55 PM

Well Well Well, Here it is a year after Katrina and the best the Nagin/Blanko appologists have been able to come up with is "It's all Bush's fault"

And again, what amount of money would it have taken to prevent another Katrina disaster at this point?

What could have been done in one year's time to get the levees up to Cat 5 standards? What could have been done over the last 5 1/2 years to get the levees up to Cat 5 standards?

All the anti Bushites have their fingers crossed hoping it will happen agin so they can piss and moan some more about how Bush is holding back the money.

Hopefully the Blanko boast "we are prepared. That's the one thing that I've always been able to brag about." really means something this time.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 08:19 PM

I have referrred you back to the National Response Plan over and over, O.G., but seein' as that blows yer argument out of the water you conviently ignore it as if it didn't/doesn't exist...

Ands for the record, Katrina wasn't a Cat 5 storm... It has now been officially been downgraded to a Cat 3 at the time of landing...

But please don't let facts boggle yer mind...

And while you are ignoring facts, go on ignoring that Bush only funed the maintenance on the levees at less than 20% of what the Army Corpes of Engineers requested... Yeah, you love ignoring that one or if yer not ignoring it you are askin' me to provide "proof" that had the levee maintainance been fully funded that the levee's would have been breached... That is an unreasonable rebuttal... It would be like me challenging you to prove that you exist... Very sophmorish Philosphy 201 crap that has nuthin' to do with the ***fact*** that the Army Corps of Engineers requested $100M and Bush sent $17M...

Yeah, Old Guy, have yer fun pullin' one right winged Bushite cut 'n paste outta yer butt 'cause there are plenty of them out there and they are extrememly well funded... Problem is that as well funded as they are they are there to protect to flow of money from the middle class to the rich... That is their ***only*** purpose... And they do this by takin' 100% of the facts, ignoring 99% of the facts and distortin' the crap outta the 1%... That's exactly what they are paid to do... Blanko, for instatnce, has released over 100,000 documents and notes about what she did and said and requested during Kartina...

Bush, on the ohter hand, is hiding behind the usual executive priviledge...

Tell ya' what, Oldster... The American people are figurin' it out purdy rapidly... Too bad that you are so blindly partisan that you can't accept facts...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:16 PM

Please point to where I said Katrina was a cat 5 storm Oh fact filled rancorous one?

Is that flow of money coming towards you or away from you? How does your net worth compare to say 2000 when Clinton was still in power?

You have a uncontrolable reflex reaction like when the doc hits your knee with the little hammer. When someone syas Katrina you say Bush did it. When someone says the mayor of NO and the Gov of La were incompetent, you say Bushite. When someone says they did not evacuate accordibng ti their plan you say NRP.

On CSpan book TV the other day there was a guy named George Lakhoff speaking. He was the campaign advisor for Howard Yehaaaaa Dean.

Some one asked him "explain why you say George Bush is not incompetent?" He said of course. Take for instance the Katrina incedent. He talked about Brownie and the guy before him and then he sid the GWB considered the threat of terrorisim greater than the threat of a disaster like Katrina. It is not a matter of incompetence, it is a matter of Republican conservative ideology.

That is the Bobert fixation. He has to blame everything on GWB.

http://www.booktv.org/afterwords/index.asp

George Lakoff says the United States is divided by two dramatically different worldviews on the notion of freedom. As he explains in his book, "Whose Freedom?: The Battle over America's Most Important Idea," progressives and conservatives have different value systems that expand the notion of freedom in opposite directions. According to Mr. Lakoff, progressives encourage social security, the minimum wage, universal health care, and college for all -- ways to guarantee freedom from want. Comparatively, he argues that conservatives believe giving people things they haven't earned creates dependency and robs people of their freedom.

Hey Bobert, did you earn yours?

Yesterday, Dr. George Lakoff, Director of the Rockridge Institute, published an article pointing out that Progressives have fallen into a trap: thinking and saying that the failures of the Bush Administration are Mr. Bush's alone.

Emboldened by President Bush's plummeting approval ratings, he argues that progressives increasingly point to Bush's "failures" and label him and his administration as incompetent. Self-satisfying as this criticism may be, Lakoff says it misses the bigger point, and I agree: Bush's disasters—Katrina, the Iraq War, the budget deficit—are not so much a testament to his incompetence or a failure of execution. Rather, they are the natural, even inevitable result of his conservative governing philosophy. It is conservatism itself, carried out according to plan, that is at fault.It's not Bush the man who has been so harmful, it's the conservative agenda.

To Bush's base, his bumbling folksiness is part of his charm—it fosters conservative populism. Bush plays up this image by proudly stating his lack of interest in reading and current events, his fondness for naps and vacations and his self-deprecating jokes. This image causes the opposition to underestimate his capacities and deflects criticism of his conservative allies. If incompetence is the problem, it's all about Bush. But, if conservatism is the problem, it is about a set of ideas, a movement and its many adherents.

It's NOT Incompetence

The incompetence frame drastically misses the point: that the conservative vision is doing great harm to this country and the world. Incompetence obscures the real issue; Bush's conservative philosophy is what has damaged this country and it is his philosophy of conservatism that must be rejected, whoever endorses it. Unless conservative philosophy itself is discredited, Conservatives will continue their domination of public discourse, and with it, will continue their domination of politics.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM

"conservatives believe giving people things they haven't earned creates dependency and robs people of their freedom."

Unless it is citizenship for a wetback.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:51 AM

First of all, Old Guy, unless you are a memeber of the First Nation, you are a descendant of an immigrant... The strength of the US economy thru the 90's was greatly enhanced by the inexpensive labor of Hispanics... Note that I would no more use the term "wetback" than I would "niggar"... It is a racist term... But that's for another thread...

As for Dr. Lakoff's observations I would partially agree with him... He makes a general statement about the way folks look what we expect from the federal governemnt... The conservative movement has for the last several decades, especially since Goldwater, been is the "starve the beast" mode of thinking where tax cuts would eventually make the feds provide less services to the genaerl population... Problem with Bush is that he delivered on the tyax cut part but hasn't had the conservative guts to cut the spending... This isn't inherently conservative... This is some bastardized idealistis radicalism where economic suicide seem to be the goal...

As for my net worth??? I began buildin' it in 1985 and by 2000 it was purdy much what it is today... Most can be attributed to the roarin' 90's when Slick Willie, the best ***pure*** Republican that the Repubs have had in my life time, was in office... Since 2000, I've had to work awfully hard to just maintain the net worth I had in 2000... But I'm like most small businessmen who haven't enjoyed the supposed strong economy that Bush keeps talkin' about... The 300% increse in my health insurance, for one, has eroded any gains I might have made... This one expense has hurt the small buisnessman harder than any other and purdy much offset any gains... I know a lot of other small businessmen and this is what I hear from them, as well...

Now back to Katrina...

Gotta go to work...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Flash Company
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:52 AM

I regret that I haven't the stamina to read all the posts above, but watched on UK TV the other night a programme about a Jazz photographer who lost his house and his archive, though thankfully not his negatives, in Katrina.
S & I were horrified by how little appears to have been achieved in twelve months. Prof. Marsalis appears to be making some efforts on behalf of the musical fraternity, but it should not be down to charity to start the recovery.

FC

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:13 PM

Yeah, Flash, yer right... Bush will boast of how much has been "allocated" but not say much about how much has been "spent"... There's a big difference... And even that portion that has been spent we will one day find was redirected to fund something entirely different... The 2004 budget, for instance, contained $6.6B for FEMA... Problem is that FEMA just became a bank for the Department of Home land Security and the Department of Defense (think the Iraq War here...)...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:49 PM

You are right Bobert, wetback is a derogatory name. I will call them illegal immigrants in the future.

I am still opposed to amnesty for illegal immigrants. My ancestors were immigrants, French and English, but they entered the country legally If there were any immigration laws back them. I like immigrants. Whenever I run across one who has trouble speaking english so it can be understood, I always show thwm how to pernounce it hillbilly style and that are amused and friendly.

I think immigrants are what makes this country great. The more the merrier as long as they comehere legally and follow the laws. I think quotas and whatever is needed in resources and manpower to process them should be increased.

I don't think illegal immigrants do anything for this country except keep labor in certain trades and areas low, even for legal immigrants.

The republicans like the cheap lagor. The Dems hope to give them a vote so they will vote for them.

This creates a slave type of situation where they don't have any legal standing to do anything about their situation. Still it is better than their situation in Mexico so they keep coming.

The law shoud be inforced and they should not be allowed to work in the US until they enter legally and follow the law.

Now Mr Bobert, About this "flow of money from the middle class to the rich", your net worth is the same? Then how do you support that claim.


Small Businesses View Virginia's Business Climate Favorably        
        Release Date: 03/ 01/ 2005        
        
        
View the full set of questions and responses for the Virginia Small-Business Conditions report, March 2005.
        
CONTACT: Gordon Dixon, [phone] or Jim Brown, [phone]

New NFIB Survey Indicates State Faring Well in Region Despite Some Concerns

VIRGINIA -- Virginia's overall business climate is supportive of small business, especially when compared to some of its neighboring states, according to the inaugural Virginia Small-Business ConditionsSM report.

The report's data, which is the first compilation of its type, was released today by the National Federation of Independent Business/Virginia. It provides an overview of small-business conditions within Virginia and compares them with neighboring states.

A net 35 percent (positive percent minus negative percent) of respondents to a recent survey indicated Virginia is supportive of small business. Comparatively, Maryland and Tennessee registered a net 31 percent in each state, while North Carolina reported a nearly identical net 36 percent. In Virginia, more than 50 percent said government officials, bankers, media outlets and community organizations are supportive or highly supportive of small business while 15 percent said those same entities are not supportive or not at all supportive.

"Virginia is a relatively business-friendly state," NFIB/Virginia State Director Gordon Dixon said. "However, this study also shows that small businesses remain concerned about several challenges, including access to affordable health insurance."

Dixon said 35 percent of respondents indicated employee health premiums are rising more rapidly than any other insurance cost. Rising workers' compensation premiums (12 percent), the No. 2 concern, lagged significantly.

A net 53 percent of the state's small employers indicated business conditions in their market area are good, which trailed Maryland (net 65 percent) but surpassed North Carolina (net 38 percent) and Tennessee (net 47 percent). A net 24 percent saw those conditions improving, which compared to a net 25 percent in Maryland, net 27 percent in North Carolina and net 21 percent in Tennessee. A net 71 percent characterized the outlook for business over the next three months as good, citing sales prospects (43 percent) and greater productivity (12 percent) as primary reasons for their view.

A net 31 percent indicated that profits were "good," and a net 46 percent of those same respondents characterized sales as "good." Overall, a net 42 percent of small employers reported that over the last three months their purchasing prices rose, while a net 14 percent reported they had increased selling prices.

http://www.nfib.com/object/sbcva0305.html

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:32 AM

Yer tryin' to divert attention away from the Bush failures in responding to Katrina, O.G....

Plus, yer cut 'n paste is in reference to how supportive Virginia is toward business and I wouldn't disagree... My point had nuthin' to do with how supportive Virginia is to business... My point was that if you were to poll the "small" mom n' pop small businesses I think you'd find that an overwhelming percentage would say the what gains they have made since 2000 have been erased by run-away health care and health care insurance costs...

That is certainly my case and I know a lotta other folks who are in the same situation...

Thios so-called recovery that you and yer hero brag about is nothin' more than a ***fat cat recovery***... It ain't trickled down to the small businessan, irregardless of how supportive the sate and local governemnts are...

(Bonus Question)And for the record, can you put your finger on when the state of Virginia became more supportive of business in general??? And who gets the lion's share of the credit???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

From the Albany Times-Union

..."When it comes to Katrina, he has a lot to be modest about.

To critics such as Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean, however, the President's conciliatory attitude comes too late. Dean noted in a CNN interview that "the response to Katrina was effectively the end to the President's presidency in the sense that people all of a sudden saw the small man behind the (Wizard of Oz) curtain. ... We suddenly saw an American president just descend into failure and I don't think he's ever recovered from that."

Dean, of course, is not a neutral observer. But plenty of other observers agree that the Bush administration badly bungled Katrina from the start and the slow recovery is still being mishandled.

Thousands of displaced families are waiting for FEMA trailers.

An estimated 11 percent of the $19 billion spent by FEMA has been lost to waste, fraud and abuse, according to testimony at a congressional hearing. The Department of Homeland Security's inspector general is investigating.

Congress didn't approve needed housing money for homeowners in Louisiana until June, and the money has not yet reached those homeowners.

Less than half the $110 billion in federal money that Bush boasted earlier this month as earmarked for relief efforts -- only $44 billion -- has actually been spent, according to the government's Katrina recovery czar, Donald Powell.

Katrina killed more than 1,500 residents along the Gulf Coast; scores remain missing. A year after the storm hit, the levees are still not reassuringly reinforced. And the city is still without a viable reconstruction plan. ..."


A

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:25 PM

Yup, there were bush failures in responding to Katrina.

There was a person on Current TV with footage of Katrina. One of the thing he said was "despite what the networks are sayng, FEMA is here" and he taped a FEMA vehicle and FEMA activity on Monday after Katrina hit. You can't get much more left wing than Current TV.

I don't recall bragging about any fat cat recovery.

And no I can't put my finger on when the state of Virginia became more supportive of business in general??? And who gets the lion's share of the credit???

I do know that Virginia has a right to work law that puts the Kibosh on Unionizing.

Virginia's Economy May Bear 'Mark of Kaine'.

Virulent Right to Work Opponent Slated For New Administration:

Demonstrating that Big Labor knew what it was doing when it went all-out toget him elected last year, new Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine (D) has nominated arabble-rousing former union official to akey position in his administration. The nomination constitutes clear evidence that Mr. Kaine made a promise as a gubernatorial candidate not to tamperwith Virginia's cherished Right to Worklaw only because he thought he had to, in view of overwhelming public opposition to forced unionism.
While a direct attack on the law by the Kaine Administration remains unlikely, Right to Work supporters can nowcertainly expect Kaine appointees to try to sabotage the law's enforcement. Mr. Kaine nominated longtime Virginia AFL-CIO boss Danny LeBlancto be his secretary of the commonwealth back in December, several weeks before he was inaugurated as governor...
...Right to Work laws, now on the booksin a total of 22 states, simply prohibit the firing of employees for refusal to paydues or fees to an unwanted union. By checking Big Labor excesses, such laws foster a good business climate. As a group, Right to Work states havea long track record of superior job and real income growth. But to Mr. LeBlanc, Right to Worklaws' aim is to "keep us [workers] down."(Since Mr. LeBlanc said this as the top executive of the Virginia AFL-CIO, hisself-description as a "worker" was rather dubious, but that's another story.) Moreover, Mr. LeBlanc has publicly proclaimed he doesn't "respect"businesses that choose to locate in Right to Work states for economic reasons." Danny LeBlanc plainly has no respect for the employee's freedom as an individual or for how the free-enterprise system works," commented Mark Mix, president of the National Right to Work Committee."And when a prominent Virginia Right to Work supporter asked how the governor could justify such nominations,he reportedly received this cynical response: 'I've got debts to pay.'"

If you go here you will see a photo of LeBlnac standing under a medallion of Lenin,

http://www.nrtwc.org/nl/nl200603p6.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:11 PM

The Monday after Katrina, Old Guy??? What day of thr week did Katrina hit??? Now if you are saying that FEMA was there the following Monday then that would make it one week to the day... One week?!?!?!?... Is this what you now want folks to think is acceptable???

Now as fir Virginia slipping thru the 14(b) loophole of the Taft-Hartley Act, I find that shamefull and a large reason why there is still abject poverty throughout the state, especially among black people... This is not about being pro-business as much as it is the remnents of slavery and a century of Jim Crow... Havin' grown up in Virginia, next to slavery and Jim Crow, 14(b) is the most disgusting symbol of institutaional racism in the commonwealth's history and downright disgraceful... I know... I spent the first half of my working life working with folks who had been directly or indirectly impoverished by 14(b)...

As fir the one person who, IMO, has been such a boon to the business community in my life time, it was Democratis Governor Mark Warner who really changed laws and attitudes...

But screw "right to work"... It is really right to exploit...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:12 PM

Well Well Well This guy is competent but Bush is not:

"You guys in New York can't get a hole in the ground fixed, and it's five years later. Let's be fair," Nagin said on "60 Minutes."

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:21 PM

Monday, August 29

7AM CDT — KATRINA MAKES LANDFALL AS A CATEGORY 4 HURRICANE

Later on the same day Fema was there according to the video on Current TV.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Old Guy
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:10 AM

"simply prohibit the firing of employees for refusal to pay dues or fees to an unwanted union"

Not being able to fire employees for refusal to pay union dues is a terrible thing I guess, to a fat cat, gangster, union leader.

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:30 AM

You obviously know nuthin' about the history of the labor movement in America, Old Guy, which has brought about the standard of living that alot of folks, perhaps even yourself, have enjoyed... 14(b) was Boss Hog's nuclear option and he was able to get it into the Taft Hartley Act thru political manouverin' just as the Repubs in my life time have been tryin' to chip away at the New Deal...

"Right to work" sounds so flowery and nice but when you take the pretty bonnet off it beneath it are lots of kids who go hungry at night...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:32 PM

BTW, Old Guy, here's how 14 or your 22 right-to-work sates are doing in terms of poverty:

               Ranking in terms         Percentage of
               of poverty               poor people

Louisiana             1                     21.3

Mississippi          2                     21.0

Alabama               6                     17.8

Texas                7                     17.0

Oklahoma             8                     16.1

Arkansas             9                     16.0

Arizona             10                     15.4

South Carolina       12                     15.1

North Carolina       13                     14.7

Idaho                15                     13.8

Tennessee            16                     13.5

Georgia             19                     13.4

Florida             20                     13.1

Nevada               24                     12.6

Other ways of looking at right-to-work states:

*64% of them are in top half of the poorest states...

*Of the top 25 poorest states, 56% of them are right-to-work states...

*13 of the top 20 poorest states are right-to-work states...

(Source: U.S. Census Bureau)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:33 PM

Oh, why not???

700...